WEBVTT - Trump Shows Confidence in Pruitt Amid Ethics Questions

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every

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<v Speaker 1>day we bring you insight and analysis into the most

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<v Speaker 1>important legal news of the day. You can find more

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<v Speaker 1>episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud

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<v Speaker 1>and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. Amid a cascade

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<v Speaker 1>of ethics questions about EPA administrator Scott pruittt President Trump

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<v Speaker 1>says he still has confidence in Pruitt. Departing from West

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<v Speaker 1>Virginia yesterday, Trump denied reports that he was considering replacing

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<v Speaker 1>the former Oklahoma Attorney General. Scott has done a fantastic job.

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<v Speaker 1>I think he's a fantastic person. Joining us is Jennifer

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<v Speaker 1>de Lowe, a Bloomberg News energy policy reporter. Jennifer tell

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<v Speaker 1>us about the latest Pruett ethics scandal involving a lease

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<v Speaker 1>on a d C condo and the new information you

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<v Speaker 1>reported on right, So we know that last year Administrator

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<v Speaker 1>Pruitt rented for up to about six months rented a

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<v Speaker 1>bedroom in a condo near Capitol Hill. On Capitol Hill

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<v Speaker 1>that from a healthcare lobbyist and her husband is also

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<v Speaker 1>a lobbyist. He's an energy lobbyist with whose firm has

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<v Speaker 1>clients regularly going before the e p A um And

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<v Speaker 1>what we learned uh fairly recently was that he prew

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<v Speaker 1>it basically paid fifty dollars a night to stay in

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<v Speaker 1>this one bedroom unit. Uh. The the interesting part of

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<v Speaker 1>this arrangement was that he only paid that some of

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<v Speaker 1>money on the nineties state there. Uh So on other

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<v Speaker 1>nights when he wasn't in Washington, d C. He could

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<v Speaker 1>leave a suitcase there, leave some belongings there on a

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<v Speaker 1>limited basis, but he didn't actually have to pay. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>your story this morning on the Bloomberg Terminal follows up

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<v Speaker 1>on that that lobbyist didn't necessarily have business before the

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<v Speaker 1>e p A last year, but he had a roster

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<v Speaker 1>of clients who perhaps did. Can you connect those dots

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<v Speaker 1>force right? Absolutely? So, for instance, he has lobbied in

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<v Speaker 1>the past for shin near Uh Energy, the first major

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<v Speaker 1>exporter of liquefied natural gas from the United States, And

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<v Speaker 1>while that is not necessarily or EPA doesn't directly regulate

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<v Speaker 1>llengy Uh, Administrator Pruitt last year went on a trip

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<v Speaker 1>to Morocco to tell the benefits of llengy Uh And

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<v Speaker 1>so that's that's an interesting connection. He's He's lobbied for

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<v Speaker 1>a bottling company, for instance, that was facing a fine

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<v Speaker 1>UH for violating air pollution requirements, permitting requirements related to

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<v Speaker 1>air pollution and settled that case with the e p

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<v Speaker 1>A last year. So there's an array of these these

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<v Speaker 1>you know, clients where they had some kind of dealings

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<v Speaker 1>with the e p A. And maybe it was tangential,

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<v Speaker 1>but but it's still points to the issues that are

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<v Speaker 1>raised and the appearance of impropriety that that can be

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<v Speaker 1>raised in this kind of a situation where you have

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<v Speaker 1>this odd interaction with Pruitt UH basically renting from a

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<v Speaker 1>pair of lobbyists. Jennifer. The Wall Street Journal has just

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<v Speaker 1>reported that White House Chief of Staff John Kelly told

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<v Speaker 1>President Trump last week that he's convinced that e pH

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<v Speaker 1>Chief Pruitt needs to step down, and we know that

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<v Speaker 1>just this morning, Trump tweeted that and showing that he

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<v Speaker 1>still has confidence in Pruitt. What are the pressures on

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<v Speaker 1>Trump besides Kelly to replace Pruitt? When who's pushing the

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<v Speaker 1>Trump economic agenda hard I'm sorry, environmental agenda hard? Right,

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<v Speaker 1>So he is I would say the President is under

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<v Speaker 1>tremendous pressure, and it's coming in and from from all

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<v Speaker 1>sides with regard to Pruett. So he even in his own,

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<v Speaker 1>uh you know, stable of advisors, he's hearing divergent opinions

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<v Speaker 1>from from folks that are very critical of Prueit's handling

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<v Speaker 1>of these matters and are just seeing the daily headlines

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<v Speaker 1>as incredibly damaging. But he's also hearing from conservatives inside

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<v Speaker 1>and outside the White House who are saying, this is

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<v Speaker 1>our guy, and he's doing more to advance your agenda

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<v Speaker 1>at the e p A than almost anybody else in

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<v Speaker 1>your the cabinet. You can't afford to let him go.

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<v Speaker 1>And frankly, you're not going to be able to get

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<v Speaker 1>anyone like him confirmed in the Senate. And when you

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<v Speaker 1>say anyone like him, I'm so glad you said that,

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<v Speaker 1>because it's not just that he's a deregulator guy, but

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<v Speaker 1>he's got contacts, He knows people, he knows people CEOs

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<v Speaker 1>who are in those businesses that would do work with

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<v Speaker 1>or be affected by the e p A. Clarify that

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<v Speaker 1>for us, Well, he comes to the e p A

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<v Speaker 1>from Oklahoma, which obviously is a big oil and gas producer.

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<v Speaker 1>There's a number of energy companies based there. He has

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<v Speaker 1>a long history with those companies and and really brushes

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<v Speaker 1>with the industry. So so he comes to the e

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<v Speaker 1>p A with kind of a knowledge of businesses that

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<v Speaker 1>are regulated by the e p A. Obviously, he comes

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<v Speaker 1>to the e p A also having sued it more

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<v Speaker 1>than a dozen times about that. Right, So, so this

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<v Speaker 1>is this is someone who is very much of the

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<v Speaker 1>belief that e p A regulations should be more limited,

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<v Speaker 1>that states should take primacy and regulating a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>environmental matters. And uh and and he has the chops

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<v Speaker 1>to do it legally. I mean in terms of you know,

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<v Speaker 1>he's got the expertise and he's got this background, so

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<v Speaker 1>that that's something that conservatives are saying to Trump, you

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<v Speaker 1>can't afford to get rid of this expertise, and you're

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<v Speaker 1>not you really aren't going to get someone as passionate

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<v Speaker 1>about this in the job. But Jennifer, haven't most of

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<v Speaker 1>Pruitt's initiatives or new law, new regulations been stopped in

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<v Speaker 1>the courts, at least for the present, Right, it is

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<v Speaker 1>absolutely early days in the efforts by Pruitt to rewrite

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of these regulations. So, for instance, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>he's in the earliest part of of of replacing the

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<v Speaker 1>Clean Power Plan that the signature Obama rule to ratchet

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<v Speaker 1>down greenhouse gas emissions from power plants. So he's proposed

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<v Speaker 1>to rule that roll that back, but there's litigation underway

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<v Speaker 1>that may put that in jeopardy. He's tried to roll

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<v Speaker 1>back some some rules on methane pollution and that's being

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<v Speaker 1>ounge in the court. So so certainly, uh, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>it's not clear how all of this will end up.

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<v Speaker 1>But it also is true that this regulatory effort takes

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<v Speaker 1>time and it is still very early in the process.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's take a step back looking at the different scandals, controversies,

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<v Speaker 1>ethics issues versus the connections and the inability to perhaps

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<v Speaker 1>get somebody confirmed who would be like him. What are

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<v Speaker 1>the scales telling you? How does this way right now?

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<v Speaker 1>Is this uh just you have to look in some

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<v Speaker 1>tea leaves here. Yeah, it's I will say that every

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<v Speaker 1>hour it feels like the temperature changes on this a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit and it is hard to read doesn't like

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<v Speaker 1>the scandal, like he's not down with that absolutely, But

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<v Speaker 1>you know, you look at these tweets, so it's very

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<v Speaker 1>interesting as you look at the tweets and even much

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<v Speaker 1>of the phrasing yesterday, it is very focused on Prue

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<v Speaker 1>It's job performance. And I think that there's a distinction

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<v Speaker 1>between praising how the job he's doing versus praising the

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<v Speaker 1>man himself. And I think that reflects some of the

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<v Speaker 1>concerns in the White House that go all the way

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<v Speaker 1>up to the President. And I think what we're gonna

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<v Speaker 1>see over the next few days, the question is what

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<v Speaker 1>weighs more strongly on the president. Is it his allergy

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<v Speaker 1>to the scandal, or is it his concern that he

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<v Speaker 1>really wants a conservative fighter in his administration and he's

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<v Speaker 1>not willing to let this guy go Jennifer. Another thing

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<v Speaker 1>is that the e p a's top ethics officer said

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<v Speaker 1>last week that the arrangement, the condo arrangement, didn't violate

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<v Speaker 1>federal gift bands for government employees. But his analysis was

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<v Speaker 1>very narrow, was only based on one thing, and he

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<v Speaker 1>didn't do a complete analysis. So that made that maybe

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<v Speaker 1>see a change there, right, So that really just yesterday

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<v Speaker 1>this ethics officer or two days ago, actually this ethics

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<v Speaker 1>officer penned another memo saying, look, I only looked at

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<v Speaker 1>whether this was fair market value. I didn't consider whether

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<v Speaker 1>this rental was used as it was supposed to be

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<v Speaker 1>in the least, and I just certainly didn't consider whether

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<v Speaker 1>there was any violation of the ethics rules around impartiality.

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<v Speaker 1>So what he's sang there is there's a whole bunch

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<v Speaker 1>of areas unexplored really by his initial analysis that could

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<v Speaker 1>could prove damaging. To prove it as we dig further

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<v Speaker 1>into this, as folks look more closely at his interactions

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<v Speaker 1>over the last year and a half. All right, well,

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<v Speaker 1>we will have to wait and see. Trump has said

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<v Speaker 1>many times before supported his appointees and then later on

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<v Speaker 1>tweeted they were fired. Thanks so much, Jennifer. That's Jennifer

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<v Speaker 1>de Loewe, Bloomberg News energy policy reporter. In the Senate

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<v Speaker 1>confirmed twelve nominees for circuit court appointments and achievement. President

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<v Speaker 1>Trump noted earlier this year in a speech at the

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<v Speaker 1>Conservative Political Action Conference, We've confirmed a record number so

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<v Speaker 1>important of circuit court judges, and we are going to

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<v Speaker 1>be putting in a lot more joining us. As Bloomberg

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<v Speaker 1>Law reporter Patrick Gregory Patrick, President Donald Trump may get

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<v Speaker 1>a chance to flip three federal appeals courts that currently

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<v Speaker 1>have a majority of Democratic appointed judges to a majority

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<v Speaker 1>of Republican appointees tell us about that right. And the

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<v Speaker 1>reason that's important is because these federal courts of appeals,

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<v Speaker 1>they are the highest court besides the Supreme Courts. So

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<v Speaker 1>from issues ranging from abortions to gons, you name it,

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<v Speaker 1>these are the highest courts at any given dispute is

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<v Speaker 1>likely to get to. Three in particular, are close to flipping.

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<v Speaker 1>You have the Second Circuit, which is where New York is,

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<v Speaker 1>the third Circuit where Pennsylvania's, and the eleventh Circuit where

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<v Speaker 1>Florida is. They're all in sort of striking range of

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<v Speaker 1>having more Republican appointees than Democrat appointees. Patrick are these

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<v Speaker 1>particular courts known for being up particularly political? I don't

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<v Speaker 1>know if i'd say we're known for being particularly political,

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<v Speaker 1>but when you add more, when our president adds uh

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<v Speaker 1>judges that he's chosen, it definitely has an effect. Um

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<v Speaker 1>In the ninth Circuit, which is one I didn't name

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<v Speaker 1>because it's not going to flip um, but there's seven vacancies,

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<v Speaker 1>so you could go from six Republican appointees to thirteen.

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<v Speaker 1>That's not going to flip. But the appointees there could

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<v Speaker 1>definitely moderate the decisions of the majority, and they can

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<v Speaker 1>write more dissents that will draw attention the cases that

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<v Speaker 1>the Supreme Court might want to review. So, Patrick Trump

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<v Speaker 1>set a record for a president his first year confirming

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<v Speaker 1>twelve Circuit Court nominees, are having them confirmed, but only

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<v Speaker 1>to this year. Why isn't he moving at a faster pace.

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<v Speaker 1>That's a good question because you have mid terms looming.

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<v Speaker 1>There's a long shot chance of Republicans losing the Senate,

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<v Speaker 1>and they need Senate control to confirm nominees, especially after

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<v Speaker 1>what happened with Merrick Garland. You assume that the Democrats,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, might take a chance to give them some

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<v Speaker 1>payback if if they take control of the Senate um.

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<v Speaker 1>But you know, look at Tennessee, where the Democratic candidate

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<v Speaker 1>is polling ten points ahead in a state that Trump

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<v Speaker 1>carried by twenty six points. You would think that there

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<v Speaker 1>would be some more urgency there from Trump and the

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<v Speaker 1>Republicans in the Senate. One of the hurdles is that

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<v Speaker 1>Democrats are requiring thirty hours of debate for each nominee,

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<v Speaker 1>and so to confirm all the ten pending appellent nominees.

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<v Speaker 1>UM added with the forty pending district court nominees, it

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<v Speaker 1>would take more than sixty eight days, and that's going

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<v Speaker 1>on the Senate for seven So you have a big

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<v Speaker 1>time a hurdle there. But at the same time, the

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<v Speaker 1>Senate Republicans could try to change that rule. There has

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<v Speaker 1>been a proposal to limit um the debate required for

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<v Speaker 1>distreccord nominees for just two hours, make it easier maybe

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<v Speaker 1>for the appellent nominees to get through, wouldn't be such

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<v Speaker 1>a time burden. I think part of it is just

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<v Speaker 1>uh Center Republicans have different priorities right now, a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of other issues going on. They might feel like they've

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<v Speaker 1>gotten as much mileage with the voters for now that

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<v Speaker 1>they need as far as UM as. Trump touted the

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<v Speaker 1>record setting number of confirmations he got in. That's interesting

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<v Speaker 1>because that is something that the President has touted many

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<v Speaker 1>times when he goes on speaking engagements. The fact that

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<v Speaker 1>he's uh put in so many more judges at the

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<v Speaker 1>circuit level. Do do you foresee the President putting more

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<v Speaker 1>pressure on the Senate to confirm some of these federal

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<v Speaker 1>appeals court vacancies. You know, given the attention that these

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<v Speaker 1>you know, next to highest courts in the land get.

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<v Speaker 1>I think it depends on how much the base really

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<v Speaker 1>push us for it, and whether the base is more

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<v Speaker 1>focused on other issues. I really think getting Gorsets confirmed

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<v Speaker 1>it took push Trump a long way. Um with his base.

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<v Speaker 1>There's kind of a funny thing, you know, but Gorsets um.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, we don't like Trump's decisions on terroriffs and whatnot,

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<v Speaker 1>but we got Gorsets out of it. I think there

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<v Speaker 1>will be some more pressure as they go down the road,

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<v Speaker 1>but Trump and their center Republicans might just think, hey,

0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:48.040
<v Speaker 1>we're probably gonna win, or maybe they they're just completely

0:12:48.040 --> 0:12:50.160
<v Speaker 1>confident they are going to win in the midterms and

0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:53.640
<v Speaker 1>then they can just get to this later. Explain how

0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:57.920
<v Speaker 1>Trump's ability to flip the circuits depends partially on how

0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:00.880
<v Speaker 1>many judges are going to take seniors status, which is

0:13:01.040 --> 0:13:04.920
<v Speaker 1>up to the judges themselves. Right. So, senior status is

0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:09.040
<v Speaker 1>a form of semi retirement where a federal judge um

0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:12.400
<v Speaker 1>once he reaches age sixty five and reaches certain requirements

0:13:12.400 --> 0:13:14.640
<v Speaker 1>about how long he's been on the bench, they can

0:13:14.760 --> 0:13:17.040
<v Speaker 1>enter a form of summing retirement where they can still

0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:20.960
<v Speaker 1>sit on cases, but their seat um is considered vacant.

0:13:20.960 --> 0:13:23.400
<v Speaker 1>They go from active status to senior status, and then

0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:26.240
<v Speaker 1>the president gets to appoint someone else for the active

0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:29.839
<v Speaker 1>status seat. And about half of federal judges are now

0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:33.199
<v Speaker 1>eligible for senior status. So the bench is is pretty

0:13:33.240 --> 0:13:36.800
<v Speaker 1>old in that sense. But I've talked to experts that say,

0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:39.520
<v Speaker 1>there's really not much you can do to convince a

0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:42.280
<v Speaker 1>judge to go ahead and take senior status. For example,

0:13:42.320 --> 0:13:46.160
<v Speaker 1>if Trump wanted more Republican judges judges to take senior status,

0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:47.880
<v Speaker 1>he could encourage them to do that, and some people

0:13:47.920 --> 0:13:50.720
<v Speaker 1>have written that he should, But my sense is that

0:13:50.920 --> 0:13:53.840
<v Speaker 1>these judges they tend to linger, and they retire when

0:13:53.840 --> 0:13:56.800
<v Speaker 1>they want to retire. Patrick does the president to have

0:13:57.000 --> 0:14:00.320
<v Speaker 1>any appointees on his short list for some of these

0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:04.839
<v Speaker 1>vacancies that could be opening up in the appeals courts? Um?

0:14:05.200 --> 0:14:09.200
<v Speaker 1>Shortlist for what? For vacancies? Yeah? For the vacancies, yeah, yeah.

0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:12.280
<v Speaker 1>He has UM A number of nominations pending. Yeah, there

0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:15.240
<v Speaker 1>there are ten nominations pending. UM. And as far as

0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:18.199
<v Speaker 1>short lists, um, you know, this is definitely a traditional

0:14:18.240 --> 0:14:20.760
<v Speaker 1>path um going from a Court of Appeals to the

0:14:20.800 --> 0:14:23.960
<v Speaker 1>Supreme Court. If a vacancy opens up there. Um, we

0:14:24.040 --> 0:14:27.920
<v Speaker 1>saw that with Animal SuPAR with Federal Court nominee. He

0:14:27.960 --> 0:14:31.920
<v Speaker 1>was um confirmed, and before he was even confirmed, he

0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:36.920
<v Speaker 1>was on President Trump's shortlist of potential Supreme Court nominees. Um,

0:14:37.120 --> 0:14:40.560
<v Speaker 1>so that is definitely something we could see. Patrick, we

0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:44.960
<v Speaker 1>have about a minute here less actually, but um explain

0:14:45.040 --> 0:14:49.080
<v Speaker 1>how some of the some of the nominees have actually

0:14:49.120 --> 0:14:52.800
<v Speaker 1>had some Democratic support. They've been moderate enough, right, And

0:14:52.920 --> 0:14:56.400
<v Speaker 1>that's the other question here. This metric of whether you

0:14:56.480 --> 0:15:00.880
<v Speaker 1>have more Republican appointees versus Democratic appointees if kind of murky,

0:15:01.320 --> 0:15:03.680
<v Speaker 1>and it's it's far from perfect, but it's sort of

0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:07.920
<v Speaker 1>the best best we've got. And the question is how

0:15:07.960 --> 0:15:11.280
<v Speaker 1>ideological are those nominees going to be. That's obviously part

0:15:11.320 --> 0:15:14.760
<v Speaker 1>of the effect that they're going to have. And we've

0:15:14.800 --> 0:15:18.880
<v Speaker 1>seen some nominees who have not appeared to be ideological.

0:15:18.960 --> 0:15:21.960
<v Speaker 1>We've seen even nominees to the Ninth Circuit, which is

0:15:22.000 --> 0:15:24.640
<v Speaker 1>seen as Patrick, I'm going to have to stop you there.

0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:27.080
<v Speaker 1>We'll pick up with this in the future. That's Bloomberg

0:15:27.160 --> 0:15:30.320
<v Speaker 1>Law reporter Patrick Gregory. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg

0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:33.480
<v Speaker 1>Law podcast. You can subscribe and Listen to the show

0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:38.240
<v Speaker 1>on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, and on bloomberg dot com slash podcast.

0:15:38.640 --> 0:15:41.360
<v Speaker 1>I'm June Brolso, this is Bloomberg