WEBVTT - Boots Riley / "Sorry to Bother You" 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:17.560 M m m. You're listening to Playback, a Variety I 0:00:17.640 --> 0:00:21.639 Heart Radio podcast. I'm your host, Variety Awards editor Chris Tapley. 0:00:22.040 --> 0:00:24.439 This week, I'm talking to Boots Riley, the writer and 0:00:24.480 --> 0:00:27.520 director of the film Sorry to Bother You. Boots got 0:00:27.520 --> 0:00:29.000 his start in the music world as part of the 0:00:29.040 --> 0:00:32.000 Oakland hip hop group The Coup. We talked about his 0:00:32.000 --> 0:00:34.600 history and that industry and how it informed his transition 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:38.479 to filmmaking, among other things. So sit tight, this is playback. 0:00:52.120 --> 0:00:54.840 What's no big deal because we just started to paying 0:00:54.880 --> 0:00:57.760 from what I'm here today with Boots Riley, the writer 0:00:57.840 --> 0:01:01.080 and director of Sorry to Bother You, also a hip 0:01:01.120 --> 0:01:03.000 hop legend I would say from his days as the 0:01:03.040 --> 0:01:06.240 frontman of The Coup. Thanks for coming on the show. 0:01:06.280 --> 0:01:09.839 Really appreciate it. Thanks for having me. You've been working 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:11.679 a lot. This is funny to me right now because 0:01:11.680 --> 0:01:14.440 we're redoing what we just did. Why did you tell them? 0:01:14.680 --> 0:01:17.040 Because it's funny, I like to bring it up. We're 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:18.520 just talking about your nickname. How did you get the 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:21.959 nickname Boots? Wearing boots at the wrong time, in the 0:01:22.000 --> 0:01:25.520 wrong place in high school? And uh, it was a 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:28.600 name that I wouldn't answer to for three years. Like 0:01:28.600 --> 0:01:31.800 people would be like Boots, Boots, and I would actually 0:01:31.840 --> 0:01:37.600 ignore them until they said Ray Raymond or Ray Riley. 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:39.839 I was first known as Ray Riley, Like people thought 0:01:39.880 --> 0:01:43.080 that was my first name, Ray Riley. Would be like, 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:46.160 what's your last name? Ray Riley, and be like you 0:01:46.280 --> 0:01:50.880 just said it? But yeah, once I started rapping, like 0:01:51.520 --> 0:01:55.400 it was a name that people who didn't even know 0:01:55.520 --> 0:01:59.320 me because of the circumstances that came up and called 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:02.560 me Boots, you know, like, oh, that's Boots. So when 0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:06.320 I started rapping, I was like, better use the name 0:02:06.400 --> 0:02:10.960 that everybody already knows me by. Well. I love your music, man, 0:02:10.960 --> 0:02:13.560 and I actually want to start there kind of work 0:02:13.600 --> 0:02:15.639 our way into the movie. But you know, you Kill 0:02:15.720 --> 0:02:19.920 My Landlord your debut album. Uh. I'm a big fan 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:22.800 of early nineties music, all of it, you know, hip hop, 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:25.639 what was going on with R and B rock, It's 0:02:25.639 --> 0:02:28.000 just an interesting clash of genres that was going on 0:02:28.040 --> 0:02:29.760 at that time. So I'd love to talk to somebody 0:02:29.800 --> 0:02:33.720 like you who entered that scene at that time and 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:36.760 and and just very curious what it was like for you, 0:02:36.840 --> 0:02:38.760 What was what was the music world like for you 0:02:38.800 --> 0:02:40.800 to enter it? In the early nineties coming out of 0:02:40.800 --> 0:02:43.680 film school and kind of what was going on with 0:02:43.760 --> 0:02:47.960 music at that time. M I have to think about 0:02:47.960 --> 0:02:51.520 things in a way I haven't thought about them, So 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:56.359 I think that you know, at the time, there were 0:02:56.400 --> 0:03:00.360 there were less outlets for people to hear music from, 0:02:59.840 --> 0:03:03.360 so it was important to get into those outlets like 0:03:04.520 --> 0:03:10.680 so you know, even like for for rappers, for hip hop, 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:15.160 there weren't like venues like whereas like maybe with indie rock, 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:18.160 you could play these venues, gather up a crowd and 0:03:18.240 --> 0:03:23.320 maybe tour and but a lot of towns and especially Oakland, 0:03:23.400 --> 0:03:27.560 but a lot of towns all over the country. Um, 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:30.240 what we now consider hip hop venues that do hip 0:03:30.280 --> 0:03:32.760 hop shows, they usually do a lot of different things, 0:03:33.200 --> 0:03:36.800 but they wouldn't have hip hop there because the idea 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:39.280 was hip hop shows would be too violent, that was 0:03:39.400 --> 0:03:42.800 what they thought or whatever. Who knows, but they weren't 0:03:42.840 --> 0:03:44.840 having them. They just have rock shows there. So we 0:03:44.840 --> 0:03:48.560 didn't have like the ways to like go about it 0:03:48.600 --> 0:03:51.320 in that way. Like we did have an independent hip 0:03:51.320 --> 0:03:55.080 hop movement, but that was just us selling tapes out 0:03:55.080 --> 0:03:58.320 of our trunk, like pulling up on a group of people, 0:03:58.920 --> 0:04:02.320 getting them to play our hape and uh, you know, 0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:05.080 and hopefully they dance to it and like it, or 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:07.480 you give out your tape to the people that are 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:10.240 popular with big systems, and we would go around the 0:04:10.240 --> 0:04:12.880 country everyone for we go around the country our first 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:17.440 promotional tour. We didn't have any shows. We just got 0:04:17.480 --> 0:04:22.279 to each city, put up stickers and posters. Asked where 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:25.120 because there was no like network, you didn't know where 0:04:25.120 --> 0:04:27.719 the record stores were. You ask people where the record 0:04:27.800 --> 0:04:31.559 stores are, because this is like right before sound scan 0:04:31.920 --> 0:04:34.400 jumped off, and even the sound Scan for a while 0:04:34.640 --> 0:04:37.160 was not the independent store. So we asked where the 0:04:37.200 --> 0:04:39.480 record store is, Asked them if we could put up 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:44.320 our own um, put up our our point of purchase stuff. 0:04:44.720 --> 0:04:48.120 Asked them what parties were going on that night? Go there, 0:04:48.279 --> 0:04:51.360 Go get the DJ to play a song, give flyers 0:04:51.400 --> 0:04:54.120 to everybody. Hopefully we can get on the mic and 0:04:54.320 --> 0:04:58.960 say something, do something and be in in between that 0:04:59.720 --> 0:05:03.320 get people to play the music in their cars. And 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:05.320 so we did that. You know, we did that for 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:08.359 weeks and weeks, and that was the ninety three that 0:05:08.440 --> 0:05:11.760 was where and then it was only so we needed 0:05:11.800 --> 0:05:16.240 to get on bet and we were not on their 0:05:16.360 --> 0:05:18.479 radar and we went this is what when BT was 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:22.080 in in d C still and we went and we 0:05:22.240 --> 0:05:25.120 banged on the door, like literally banged on the door, 0:05:25.680 --> 0:05:30.560 and Um, there was a dude Joe and I'm forgetting 0:05:30.640 --> 0:05:32.960 his name, but he was with the host of BT. 0:05:33.320 --> 0:05:35.640 We don't know who the producers were or anything, and 0:05:35.720 --> 0:05:38.360 we were on wild Pitching. They kind of knew some 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:40.760 of this stuff, and so we we went and we 0:05:40.839 --> 0:05:43.920 asked for him and we're like, yeah, he told us 0:05:43.960 --> 0:05:48.840 to come here and and uh he came out and 0:05:48.839 --> 0:05:50.920 he was like, what was this all about? And We're like, 0:05:51.080 --> 0:05:53.640 we want to take you to lunch. So we went 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:56.440 to we spent our per diem. We put our per 0:05:56.520 --> 0:06:01.680 diems together, me pam uh e rock In our road 0:06:01.720 --> 0:06:04.960 manager at the time, check the pharaoh put our per 0:06:05.000 --> 0:06:08.480 diems together, which was like six dollar a day per 0:06:08.520 --> 0:06:13.200 diem or something. And we bought this dude lunch and 0:06:13.520 --> 0:06:16.640 um made friends with him and he played our video. 0:06:17.960 --> 0:06:20.359 Um a lot of that d I Y stuff. I 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:23.440 mean that probably translates to the film world, right, I mean, 0:06:23.680 --> 0:06:26.480 oh yeah, I mean that's how I got it funded, 0:06:27.400 --> 0:06:30.520 how I got people behind it with with the music. 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:32.960 Was there anything at the time that was there a 0:06:32.960 --> 0:06:34.800 hole you felt needed to be filled? Was there a 0:06:34.880 --> 0:06:38.279 certain was there something that wasn't happening in music that 0:06:38.320 --> 0:06:42.039 you wanted to put there? Oh? Definitely. I. UM. You know, 0:06:42.080 --> 0:06:47.479 I came from an organizing background. I started, UM, I 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:50.720 have a lot of contradictions. I different times, I was, 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:56.680 I was doing theater and I was an organizer. UM. 0:06:56.720 --> 0:07:02.320 With that that was helping out the creation of a 0:07:03.000 --> 0:07:06.320 of an anti racist farm workers union in Watsonville and 0:07:06.920 --> 0:07:11.640 uh not in Watsonville and Delano and McFarland. UM. I 0:07:11.720 --> 0:07:17.520 also was also right after that during the same time, 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:21.320 at the same time was promoted parties, you know, like 0:07:21.400 --> 0:07:24.280 the parties like ladies in Free before ten, you know 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:27.760 that sort of thing, and uh you know, dress code, 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:32.120 no gym shoes, you know whatever. UM, all of these 0:07:32.160 --> 0:07:37.760 things kind of converged and I and then I and 0:07:37.800 --> 0:07:40.040 I was going to film school at different times, you know, 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:46.440 while all of these things were overlapping, and I, UM, 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:51.640 I saw that, you know, everything that I do is 0:07:51.680 --> 0:07:55.320 about how I look at the world. And I thought 0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:58.600 I didn't think anyone was out there putting out the 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:01.320 analysis that I was putting out that I wanted to 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:04.080 put out. So I started doing that, and when I 0:08:04.120 --> 0:08:06.640 decided to do it, I didn't know what I was doing, 0:08:06.680 --> 0:08:10.960 and similar to film, I was like, well, this has 0:08:11.000 --> 0:08:13.520 to be done. What do I need to learn to 0:08:13.640 --> 0:08:15.960 do this? And I knew I wasn't good at rapping 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:21.960 you know, um radical you know radical organizations. They operate 0:08:22.080 --> 0:08:26.800 off of a philosophy of dialectical materialism, which is one 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:31.080 of the ideas behind is that everything changes, nothing stays 0:08:31.080 --> 0:08:35.640 the same. Um that even I mean, and this is 0:08:35.679 --> 0:08:39.719 true obviously, even the rocks are deteriorating and changing all 0:08:39.720 --> 0:08:44.640 the time. So with that that everything is changing, you 0:08:44.760 --> 0:08:48.840 also can have something to say or to do with 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:52.880 how things change. So thinking about that ends up, especially 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:56.400 for a kid trying to figure out who they are 0:08:56.480 --> 0:08:58.560 and what they want to do, that ends up being 0:08:58.600 --> 0:09:01.600 liberating in the sense that you also, because of that, 0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:04.080 can figure out if you want to get to point 0:09:05.080 --> 0:09:10.000 B or C or whatever that no matter how impossible 0:09:10.120 --> 0:09:14.239 it is, it's really just about having a clear analysis 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:19.800 of what the obstacles are, figuring out what those steps 0:09:19.800 --> 0:09:23.080 are that you would have to take. You know, like 0:09:23.200 --> 0:09:28.440 if I wanted to go to the moon in three months, 0:09:29.120 --> 0:09:31.480 you know, one of my obstacles would be money, so 0:09:31.520 --> 0:09:34.680 I'd have to get some billionaire to want to send 0:09:34.720 --> 0:09:37.319 me to the moon. You know whatever, I could define that, 0:09:37.520 --> 0:09:40.600 maybe it's almost impossible. Maybe I wouldn't be able to 0:09:41.120 --> 0:09:43.800 attain the steps in between. But the first step is 0:09:44.160 --> 0:09:49.640 two correctly define what those steps are gonna be. And 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:54.040 so I did that with music. I practiced. I looked 0:09:54.080 --> 0:10:00.240 at what other rappers were doing. Sometimes it was you know, 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:04.160 almost imitating them and figuring that out, figuring out what 0:10:04.200 --> 0:10:10.840 they did with their you know, delivery, figuring out you know, 0:10:10.920 --> 0:10:14.480 and figuring out how, and then practiced. You know, I 0:10:14.600 --> 0:10:18.520 knew that practice was a big part of it. And 0:10:18.600 --> 0:10:21.160 I knew that there's different ways just from organizing. I know, 0:10:21.200 --> 0:10:24.920 there's different ways to practice, Like if I'm talking to you, 0:10:25.040 --> 0:10:28.640 it's different than me like sitting down writing something or whatever, 0:10:28.760 --> 0:10:31.640 or if I'm talking to tend people. All those things 0:10:31.640 --> 0:10:35.640 I applied to doing the music, and I made myself 0:10:35.720 --> 0:10:41.800 get better and um and and and enough to do 0:10:41.880 --> 0:10:44.560 this thing. It wasn't like I wasn't the guy who 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:47.360 people were like, Oh, you're good, you should do this. 0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:50.400 What are you doing not doing that? You know? People 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:54.440 were like surprised when I was doing it, similar to 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:57.439 how they were with the film. Yeah, I'm sorry to throw. 0:10:57.520 --> 0:10:59.360 You probably came in here expecting to start talking about 0:10:59.360 --> 0:11:00.800 the movie and you really but I just wanted to 0:11:00.800 --> 0:11:03.480 get into your because it's it's it's interesting to me 0:11:03.520 --> 0:11:06.840 how it might inform because also, you know, I read 0:11:06.880 --> 0:11:10.200 that you you wrote you taught a course on in 0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:13.360 high school or high school course on persuasive lyric writing. 0:11:13.800 --> 0:11:17.319 Is that true? So I'm curious about that because I 0:11:17.360 --> 0:11:19.240 actually want to know the answer, Like what what? What? 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:21.680 What is persuasive writing? What? What? What is an example 0:11:21.720 --> 0:11:27.200 of persuasive writing? Uh? What's this? I mean? It more 0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:32.240 is about having a reason you're talking to someone, like 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:37.120 especially if you're making a piece of art. It's more 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:41.880 looking at it from the standpoint of, m what do 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:45.440 you want to say about the world, as opposed to 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:48.080 that you want to just get to the end of 0:11:48.080 --> 0:11:52.120 the verse and say some cute things. You know that 0:11:52.200 --> 0:11:55.000 applies to film. Obviously you're dealing in theme with with 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:57.920 with screenwriting. You want to be saying something. Obviously your 0:11:57.960 --> 0:11:59.800 movie is saying something, is saying a lot of things, 0:12:00.160 --> 0:12:02.280 and it's having a lot of fun as well along 0:12:02.320 --> 0:12:05.480 the way. Um, you know, you've got this thing that 0:12:05.520 --> 0:12:07.280 you say every time someone asks you to kind of 0:12:07.320 --> 0:12:09.000 distill it, and I'm just gonna say it for years 0:12:09.080 --> 0:12:11.520 time and not let you say this film is an absurdist, 0:12:11.600 --> 0:12:14.559 dark comedy with magical realism and science fiction inspired by 0:12:14.559 --> 0:12:18.760 the world of telemarketing, which completely undersells or omits any 0:12:18.760 --> 0:12:21.440 of the socio political underpinnings of the film. So why 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:23.200 is that just to not scare someone away with the 0:12:23.200 --> 0:12:26.760 first Well, here's the thing is that I think all 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:32.840 of these films are political, even like Skyscraper and Rampage. 0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:34.640 I haven't seen those movies, so I don't know in 0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:38.680 which way they are, but they're all telling us something, 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:41.679 even when the writer might not be conscious of what 0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:44.800 the but sometimes the writer is conscious because as we know, 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:48.880 there is and this is for some people who haven't heard, 0:12:48.920 --> 0:12:51.600 this might seem like I'm a tinfoil hat guy. But 0:12:52.000 --> 0:12:55.160 ever after nine eleven, there was an open dialogue between 0:12:55.200 --> 0:12:59.800 the Pentagon and different studios, and not just for films 0:12:59.840 --> 0:13:04.440 about you know, the invasion of of of Iraq. Like 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:08.480 there's a dialogue that's going on, and some of that 0:13:08.520 --> 0:13:11.400 has to do with how are the how is the 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:15.040 army being portrayed? How is the you know, like, are 0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:17.360 there some things where you can put in some navy 0:13:17.400 --> 0:13:21.800 seals all those sorts of things. Um, And and that's 0:13:22.080 --> 0:13:26.559 just the more crass stuff. But other stuff is you know, um, 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:31.040 just the way life is, you know, like what what 0:13:31.160 --> 0:13:34.679 things you're supposed to be be scared of? What things? 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:37.880 You know? What you know, putting out the idea of 0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:41.719 what most humans want and how most humans act. It's 0:13:41.760 --> 0:13:46.480 all political. So if we talk about my film in 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:50.240 terms of it being quote unquote political, then what it's 0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:52.920 doing is it's making us think that the rest of 0:13:52.960 --> 0:13:56.920 the stuff is normal. You know, it's making us think 0:13:57.000 --> 0:14:00.679 that the rest of the stuff has no viewpoint. Regarding 0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:02.600 the tinfoil hat comment, I mean, do you do you 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:04.760 deal with that? Do do do? Do you? I mean 0:14:04.800 --> 0:14:08.040 I was I asked that because I was watching your 0:14:08.040 --> 0:14:11.880 politically incorrect episode from fifteen years right after nine eleven, 0:14:11.920 --> 0:14:14.400 you know, when party music came out, and uh, I 0:14:14.440 --> 0:14:16.400 just wanted to jump through the screen and smack Bill 0:14:16.480 --> 0:14:18.760 Maher around because he was he was so condescending to 0:14:18.800 --> 0:14:20.800 you and the other guests on the show as well. 0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:25.720 Do you deal with that. Um well, I would say this. 0:14:25.840 --> 0:14:30.120 I mean I do sometimes, but then i'm always I'm 0:14:30.200 --> 0:14:32.640 not always, but I'm shown to be right. Like on 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:36.360 that one, I was putting forward the idea that the 0:14:36.480 --> 0:14:42.680 US got into invading uh Iraq for monetary reasons, and 0:14:42.720 --> 0:14:45.200 they were like, oh, you're crazy this and that, what 0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:48.560 what are you talking about. Then of course it got 0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:51.560 found out. You know, I'm not saying I was the 0:14:51.600 --> 0:14:54.160 only one saying that, but there wasn't anything was considered 0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:56.760 a too radical an idea for people to even discuss 0:14:56.840 --> 0:14:59.920 on Disney owned television. I guess you know. So yeah, 0:15:00.920 --> 0:15:06.880 um so I don't think that normal folks take it as, 0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:10.000 you know, something way out there. I mean, look, there 0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:15.560 was a there were two studies recently done, one by 0:15:15.600 --> 0:15:19.280 Harvard put to me the more telling one was the one. 0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:22.120 I can call it up on my phone because I've 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:26.360 screenshot at it to show to people. But um uh 0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:30.000 the but where there's a right wing think take that 0:15:30.080 --> 0:15:35.920 did a study of millennials and one of the things 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:38.760 that came up with made made this think tank up 0:15:38.760 --> 0:15:42.880 in arms, saying, look, this is showing us that you know, 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:49.040 universities are doing this and that anyway out of those hundred, 0:15:49.080 --> 0:15:53.520 millennials showed one and two believe that we should have 0:15:53.520 --> 0:16:05.920 a socialist world. Um. So often though, writers and artists 0:16:06.080 --> 0:16:09.880 have done everything that we can do to try to 0:16:09.920 --> 0:16:12.120 get out of the real world, you know, like to 0:16:12.840 --> 0:16:19.200 to um separate ourselves from folks. So we've we've made 0:16:19.200 --> 0:16:22.680 ourselves believe that there's nothing that can be done about 0:16:22.720 --> 0:16:24.880 the world and that, and so we sink into writing 0:16:24.880 --> 0:16:28.040 and we're like, we're gonna expose it, which my show, 0:16:28.280 --> 0:16:32.360 which my movie kind of talks about, like we we 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:35.400 are like, look what we're du is we tell the 0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:37.920 truth and that's our job. That's all we can do. Man. 0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:40.760 So we just tell the truth and you know, it 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:48.320 gets out there. But that's not enough. And in giving 0:16:48.440 --> 0:16:54.160 us ourselves that excuse, we cling on to the idea 0:16:54.360 --> 0:17:02.400 that we should change what we write about, UM two 0:17:02.880 --> 0:17:08.280 because everyone else is not as enlightened as us. So 0:17:08.720 --> 0:17:15.159 you know, people water down there own ideas publicly because 0:17:15.160 --> 0:17:18.760 we you know, that's what the media is often does, 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:20.800 is it makes us think that we're the most radical 0:17:20.840 --> 0:17:24.440 person in the room. That's the whole job. I mean, 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:29.679 I have so many examples of that in life, where 0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:32.760 I mean, I mean, Occupy coming up, it's one of them. 0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:36.560 Nobody would have thought in two thousand and ten that 0:17:37.320 --> 0:17:42.959 in two thousand and eleven you'd have this movement jumping 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:47.760 off in every town in the United States where they 0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:51.520 basically we're having a class line that said versus the 0:17:51.520 --> 0:17:54.440 one percent, which now is a cliche sort of thing 0:17:54.520 --> 0:17:56.680 to throw out there too, where we don't even think 0:17:56.720 --> 0:18:00.640 about it, and just but in reality talking about an 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:06.560 economic function to this economic system, which seems it's radical 0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:10.640 to say that there are functions inside of an economic system. 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:13.399 But we wouldn't have thought that. But all these things 0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:16.679 popped up in all of these towns, and and beyond 0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:20.119 the people that showed up there, the folks that liked 0:18:20.320 --> 0:18:23.760 the fact that it was there, that weren't showing up there. 0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:28.600 I mean, the point is is that um, before that, 0:18:29.320 --> 0:18:32.320 they hadn't even said the word capitalism. And there's some 0:18:32.440 --> 0:18:39.639 study was done where before um, before Occupied the News 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:44.760 had said the word capitalism once in twenty years, and 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:50.440 then after Occupy they were saying it, you know, every night, 0:18:51.720 --> 0:18:53.520 like it was a dirty word to those who were 0:18:54.720 --> 0:18:56.480 like it was like to look at it in a 0:18:57.160 --> 0:18:59.840 to look at things as having anything to do with 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:08.960 economic function. Um then calls up other questions. But but 0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:14.440 here's the thing, the other reason that I don't talk 0:19:14.480 --> 0:19:18.080 about it necessarily in terms of a social political thing, 0:19:18.320 --> 0:19:20.800 because I mean, if you get any director here and 0:19:20.840 --> 0:19:23.159 you talk to them about their ideas, they're gonna have 0:19:23.359 --> 0:19:29.720 as many ideas as I do. But for the past 0:19:29.760 --> 0:19:36.320 twentysomething years, uh, rebellion has been edited out of what 0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:40.600 we write about. I just regarding that comment, I just 0:19:40.640 --> 0:19:43.520 read something you said about another film, UH never let 0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:45.840 me go. I had the exact same takeaway from that 0:19:45.880 --> 0:19:48.720 movie that you did, and you know, which is that 0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:51.800 there's no spirit of rebellion within the film. And in 0:19:51.840 --> 0:19:54.160 some ways, okay, that's kind of the point, but that's 0:19:54.560 --> 0:19:56.760 but it's not what I wanted. And you could have 0:19:56.840 --> 0:19:59.600 that be the point for the characters that are there. 0:19:59.760 --> 0:20:03.000 Let's say he wanted to write about some emotional thing 0:20:03.040 --> 0:20:07.359 of like giving up and losing hope. Okay, but it 0:20:07.400 --> 0:20:10.280 could still be somewhere in the world, you know, somewhere 0:20:10.920 --> 0:20:13.920 because they have other things happening in that world that 0:20:14.119 --> 0:20:18.160 you know, and and but it gets yeah, we don't 0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:19.879 even have it in that world. The only time we 0:20:19.920 --> 0:20:22.359 have it in that world. Is when they create such 0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:29.480 a science fiction. Um uh, such a science fiction created 0:20:29.600 --> 0:20:34.440 different universe. Yeah. That and and that it doesn't even matter. 0:20:34.520 --> 0:20:37.880 Like Star Wars was supposed to be started out as 0:20:38.280 --> 0:20:42.359 George Lucas's version of Apocalypse Now. He was supposed to 0:20:42.359 --> 0:20:44.920 write Apocalypse. It was his idea to do Apocalypse Now, 0:20:45.200 --> 0:20:49.200 but he, um, this is according to the conversations. It's 0:20:49.240 --> 0:20:53.240 just a book that's of conversations between Michael and Dodchy 0:20:53.320 --> 0:20:57.600 and Walter Merch who edited a lot of that stuff. 0:20:57.640 --> 0:21:02.879 He was going he he was making his movie based 0:21:02.920 --> 0:21:06.159 on the Heart of Darkness as Apocalypse Now was um 0:21:06.160 --> 0:21:10.119 but following the Vietcom with the Vietcong as the protagonists 0:21:10.600 --> 0:21:15.520 and going into um U s territory to find this 0:21:15.760 --> 0:21:19.760 viehic X Vietcom guy who had risen up the ranks 0:21:19.800 --> 0:21:22.840 and become powerful there and we're helping them to fight 0:21:22.920 --> 0:21:26.760 the Vietcom. And people are like, that's too radical. You're 0:21:26.800 --> 0:21:34.480 having them identify with, you know, the communists, and George 0:21:34.520 --> 0:21:36.919 and he's like and he couldn't get it funded, so 0:21:36.960 --> 0:21:39.520 he's like, fine, I'll put it in space. And that's 0:21:39.560 --> 0:21:42.320 where Star Wars comes the rebels were. For at least 0:21:42.320 --> 0:21:44.159 for the first movie, the rebels were supposed to be 0:21:44.200 --> 0:21:48.880 the vietcom The Empire was the United States and um 0:21:48.920 --> 0:21:56.720 and Darth Vader was their curts. And it doesn't matter. 0:21:57.600 --> 0:22:01.400 Nobody cares, you know what they It's so removed from 0:22:01.400 --> 0:22:04.000 real life that you can only couch those ideas in 0:22:04.080 --> 0:22:06.440 something that's fantasy or something and that that you're saying 0:22:06.440 --> 0:22:09.439 that that and because of that, how removed it is. 0:22:09.640 --> 0:22:12.280 That's why we have no idea why anybody is in 0:22:12.359 --> 0:22:16.880 the Empire to begin with, Like nobody is like, yeah, 0:22:16.960 --> 0:22:19.879 it really fights for our families. No, nobody's doing that. 0:22:20.040 --> 0:22:24.360 It's so removed that there's no allusion to the United 0:22:24.400 --> 0:22:27.920 States or and and in a lot of these movies, 0:22:27.960 --> 0:22:30.680 that's why they have evil versus good in that way 0:22:30.800 --> 0:22:35.120 because they don't want to. They don't want to, uh, 0:22:35.359 --> 0:22:40.520 make reference to anyone in our real world. So I 0:22:40.560 --> 0:22:42.960 mean in Star Trek they're supposed to live in a 0:22:43.000 --> 0:22:46.600 socialist society. Nobody cares. It doesn't matter. It's so far, 0:22:47.040 --> 0:22:50.199 you know, like Republicans can watch those things and be 0:22:50.320 --> 0:22:57.159 totally down because it doesn't really raise the thing. And 0:22:57.320 --> 0:22:59.960 and I'm not saying that I think that they're definitely 0:23:00.320 --> 0:23:03.119 or even a lot of Republicans that would agree with 0:23:03.200 --> 0:23:07.840 the basic idea that people should get the value of 0:23:07.880 --> 0:23:10.080 the work that they do, you know what I'm saying, 0:23:10.400 --> 0:23:14.679 which is a very socialist concept. But um, you know, 0:23:14.760 --> 0:23:18.440 when you start putting lingo on it, then people are like, oh, 0:23:18.520 --> 0:23:21.439 I don't think I agree with that. I'm not supposed to. 0:23:21.600 --> 0:23:24.960 You know. Then as an art artist, when we start 0:23:25.000 --> 0:23:28.200 talking about the film in that way, my ego gets 0:23:28.280 --> 0:23:30.600 hurt because I put a lot of work into the 0:23:30.680 --> 0:23:37.399 style of this, into into the storytelling that um, just 0:23:37.480 --> 0:23:40.679 because I end up having a different viewpoint than that 0:23:40.760 --> 0:23:43.720 people aren't used to seeing in film, then that's what 0:23:43.840 --> 0:23:49.080 gets talked about. But um, I would say that there's 0:23:49.119 --> 0:23:50.800 a lot of stuff that we all you know, this 0:23:50.880 --> 0:23:57.800 was a collaboration of actors and production designer DP and 0:23:58.240 --> 0:24:03.160 UM costume designer. Like with this vision that I had 0:24:03.200 --> 0:24:09.200 that I think, um, it's something that could get looked over. 0:24:10.200 --> 0:24:13.480 So that's why I talk about what it's what to me, 0:24:13.640 --> 0:24:17.040 that's what it's about. Just just and this is we're 0:24:17.080 --> 0:24:19.439 talking about that one question for a long time. But 0:24:19.960 --> 0:24:22.439 that's what it's about. Is those those things that I 0:24:22.480 --> 0:24:26.520 said it is an absurd as dark comedy, magical realism, 0:24:26.560 --> 0:24:30.160 science fiction, because all those other things that don't have 0:24:30.240 --> 0:24:32.920 my viewpoint, they have some other viewpoint that we don't 0:24:32.960 --> 0:24:36.840 talk about either. Well, let's talk about just the It 0:24:36.880 --> 0:24:39.880 has a very interesting journey obviously, this story, I mean, 0:24:40.560 --> 0:24:45.320 the script was published through the help of Dave Eggers originally, 0:24:45.480 --> 0:24:49.800 so you finally got the funding to make it as 0:24:49.840 --> 0:24:52.080 a film. Um. So, you know, just a very unique 0:24:52.119 --> 0:24:55.199 kind of trajectory for a story like this. You went 0:24:55.280 --> 0:24:57.879 to the Sundance Labs with it as well, what what 0:24:57.920 --> 0:25:00.480 did you learn with with the sun Dance Institute of 0:25:00.520 --> 0:25:03.200 it all? I mean, you know, and I mentioned earlier 0:25:03.200 --> 0:25:04.719 you went to film school by the way, so like 0:25:05.080 --> 0:25:07.600 so everyone's under aware you went to film school before 0:25:07.640 --> 0:25:10.480 you became a music star. Yeah. I went to film 0:25:10.560 --> 0:25:15.360