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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Markets Podcast. I'm Paul Sweeney, along

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Speaker 1: with my co host of Bonnie Quinn. Every business day

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Speaker 1: we bring you interviews from CEOs, market pros, and Bloomberg experts,

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Speaker 1: along with essential market moving news. Find the Bloomberg Markets

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Speaker 1: Podcast on Apple podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts,

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Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com, you are listening to Bloomberg Markets.

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Speaker 1: I'm Carol Master in for Paul and Vonnie on this Monday,

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Speaker 1: and a story last week that caught my attention. It

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Speaker 1: talked about a speculative frenzy that's swooping Wall Street and

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Speaker 1: world markets. And among the things that this story highlighted

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Speaker 1: was about special purpose acquisition vehicles backs that raise money

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Speaker 1: for a blank check company to buy whatever it wants.

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Speaker 1: They have raised over sixty billion dollars this year. That's

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Speaker 1: more than the previous decade come behind. So it has

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Speaker 1: been on quite a tear. Let's talk about it with

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Speaker 1: our next guest, Terry Kawaja, founder and CEO of Luma

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Speaker 1: Partners Investment Banking. He joins us on the phone in Brazilia, Brazil. Terry,

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Speaker 1: nice to have you here with us, um, how are

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Speaker 1: you doing great to be with you, Carol. I think

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Speaker 1: you nailed it with the adjectives speculative phrasing, because by

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Speaker 1: their very nature, these vehicles are speculative because one does

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Speaker 1: not know when one makes the investment in the I

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Speaker 1: p O of these spects, you know exactly what you're

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Speaker 1: what you're gonna get. And when you mentioned Frenzy, not

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Speaker 1: only is it sixty five billion at this point, that's

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Speaker 1: probably a month out a day. This this craze has

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Speaker 1: been incredible, almost unmatched on wall streets in terms of

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Speaker 1: under udder volumes. You know. That's uplows my mind, Like

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Speaker 1: you're basically banking on the investor. And that's why when

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Speaker 1: there's a hedge fund investor, well known investor doing it,

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Speaker 1: we're like, oh, look at what they're doing. But you

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Speaker 1: are basically banking on their investing prowess to get it

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Speaker 1: right right, because you're basically giving them a blank check

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Speaker 1: invest where you want, hopefully it pays off, correct. I

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Speaker 1: think look what we did a a Loomis gip a

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Speaker 1: market map of all of these different spects. There are

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Speaker 1: over two hundred and fifty just in the class of

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Speaker 1: UH that of UH, you know, and there's still of

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Speaker 1: those hud are still looking for targets. They have sixty

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Speaker 1: five billion dollars in cash, they'll lever that up to

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Speaker 1: I don't know, three four hundred billion dollars worth of

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Speaker 1: enterprise value of targets, and there in life the rub right,

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Speaker 1: I think we're gonna have a scenario where we're gonna

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Speaker 1: look back at this and put it under the lens

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Speaker 1: of the good, the bad, and the ugly. The good

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Speaker 1: is that this is a vehicle to help companies do

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Speaker 1: accelerated I p o s, and that's great, Lord knows

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Speaker 1: we need more public companies. The bad, of course, is

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Speaker 1: that we're clearly going to see some commoditization with you know,

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Speaker 1: so much money chasing UH companies, that we're going to

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Speaker 1: have a demand supplying balance, and that out of commoditize

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Speaker 1: the returns for the sponsor UH. And then the ugly

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Speaker 1: is I think relates to what might happen to public

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Speaker 1: investors in this sector, should all of that money caused

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Speaker 1: them to go after lower and lower quality targets that

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Speaker 1: perhaps are on the edge of whether they're suitable to

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Speaker 1: be public companies in the first Well, well, that's what

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Speaker 1: I keep thinking about. Terry is you know, we have

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Speaker 1: for the last couple of years just talked about the

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Speaker 1: amount of money that's out there to invest, the amount

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Speaker 1: of money to go into start up companies, the amount

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Speaker 1: of money that's been able to go into UH startups

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Speaker 1: and that have been enabled them to stay private that

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Speaker 1: much longer. I mean, there's a lot of money slashing around.

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Speaker 1: It does feel like and I don't know if I'm

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Speaker 1: getting this wrong, because the I P O market is

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Speaker 1: also part of this kind of speculative frenzy this year,

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Speaker 1: but it does feel certainly different from um, how do

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Speaker 1: do you see them kind of the same the frenzy

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Speaker 1: and I P as the frenzy inspects this year kind

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Speaker 1: of the same beasts or are they different? Well, I

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Speaker 1: say they're similar in but the companies that are able

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Speaker 1: to go public in and of their own right tend

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Speaker 1: to be higher quality, right, I mean, yes, the spect

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Speaker 1: can be utilized to accelerate and go to market, but

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Speaker 1: if your if your quality company, remember that there is

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Speaker 1: a cost associated without accelerated speeds to the public markets,

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Speaker 1: and that is the delusion that you will experience, your

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Speaker 1: your shareholders will experience because of the of the spect

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Speaker 1: that the sponsor gets for free basically, so that promote

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Speaker 1: that the sponsor has will In fact, I mean, equity

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Speaker 1: is a zero sum game, so their gain is U

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Speaker 1: is essentially a delusion to the other shareholders. So it

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Speaker 1: has to be worthwhile. And you I think struck the

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Speaker 1: correct chord at the outset, which is it is going

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Speaker 1: to place an extreme of focus on the quality of

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Speaker 1: the SPAC sponsor. I think when you get the eight

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Speaker 1: five billion of issuance, everybody and their sister is doing

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Speaker 1: a spact. My dentist, you know, uh, receptionist who's doing

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Speaker 1: a fact, everyone's doing a SPAT, but not all of

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Speaker 1: them will will be successful, which puts all the more

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Speaker 1: importance on analyzing the quality both in terms of you know,

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Speaker 1: operational expertise, strategic oversight, uh and as well the network

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Speaker 1: so that they can you have some sense of assurance

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Speaker 1: that they can not only find a good target, but

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Speaker 1: they can convince them that their sponsor group has more

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Speaker 1: value add than a X y Z SPAC and therefore

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Speaker 1: they don't have to eat. So, I mean, what is

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Speaker 1: it about this year that all of a sudden SPACs

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Speaker 1: You know, they're not a new new vehicle like they've

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Speaker 1: been around, but what was it about this year in particular?

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Speaker 1: Was it just the cheap money floating around again or what? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think there is certainly a lot as it relates

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Speaker 1: to you know, Demando stripping supply. But historically will Will

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Speaker 1: the spacts have been around. I mean they've been deemed

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Speaker 1: somewhat tawdry, right, I mean, yeah, they were kind of

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Speaker 1: vast money vehicles and the like. But now not only

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Speaker 1: do we have quantity, we have quality. So a list investors,

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Speaker 1: you know, Michael Kleins and probably Happy Tea in technologies,

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Speaker 1: I mean at politicians, athletes, celebrities, everybody new in on it.

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Speaker 1: But but I would really want to focus on folks

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Speaker 1: that know the industry well or well network that are

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Speaker 1: likely to be able to find target well. And I

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Speaker 1: think about a conversation. We've got to wrap up here,

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Speaker 1: but I do think about a conversation I had with

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Speaker 1: two individuals long time in the restaurant industry, and they

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Speaker 1: had a spack and it was just about looking at

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Speaker 1: the realist the restaurant property specifically as an industry they

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Speaker 1: really really knew and they were out to make some acquisitions.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna leave it there. Terry, thank you so much.

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Speaker 1: Terry Kawasha, he's founder and CEO of Luma Partners Investment Banking,

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Speaker 1: joining us on the phone from Brazilia, Brazil. What's chalk

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Speaker 1: out the Bloomberg terminal Bloomberg dot com and you'll find

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Speaker 1: this Bloomberg opinion piece. It's taking a look at student debt.

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Speaker 1: It's about one point seven trillion. It is up from

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Speaker 1: two hundred fifty billion back in two thousand four. Student loans.

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Speaker 1: They are now the second largest slice of household debt

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Speaker 1: after mortgages, bigger than credit card debt. Will writing about

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Speaker 1: it at about the possibility of for giving student loans,

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Speaker 1: she says it is not a lasting solution. Let's bring

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Speaker 1: Claudia Sums. She's founder at Stay at Home Macro Consulting.

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Speaker 1: She's also a former Federal Reserve economists known for creating

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Speaker 1: the sam Roll, a recession indicator, and she joins us

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Speaker 1: on the phone from Washington, d C. Claudia, nice to

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Speaker 1: have you here with us. So tell us about this column.

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Speaker 1: I feel like for years, uh, you know, we've been

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Speaker 1: talking about this mounting student debt, and there is a

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Speaker 1: possibility that President electjo Biden could issue an executive order

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Speaker 1: to cancel a portion of it, you say, and you

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Speaker 1: remind us this isn't necessarily something that's going to have

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Speaker 1: a lasting or longer impact, right, Yeah, And first, well,

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Speaker 1: thank you for having me on today. And I am

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Speaker 1: so heartened that this discussion about higher education and the

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Speaker 1: affordability of it has become one the front and center

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Speaker 1: in the Biden administration discussions, largely because they likely say,

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Speaker 1: it's a divided Congress and they have to think really

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Speaker 1: hard about the tools that they have via their disposal

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Speaker 1: of an executive order or just running the federal agencies better.

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Speaker 1: So I think this is important. I understand why student

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Speaker 1: loan debt forgiveness has been the centerpiece, what kicked it off, right,

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Speaker 1: Like a lot of people would like those debts forgiven.

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Speaker 1: And yet I think this is a moment to make

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Speaker 1: sure that we have a bigger conversation about why we

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Speaker 1: got into this mess and why we have millions of

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Speaker 1: Americans who start higher education, whether it's certificates or bachelor's

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Speaker 1: or masters, and never finish. Right, that is a problem. Well,

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Speaker 1: this is what I love. Listen, this is so you know,

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Speaker 1: I hate to think about, you know, a college education

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Speaker 1: and thinking about the financial impact when you come on

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Speaker 1: the other side. But it's a reality, especially you know, Claudie,

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Speaker 1: when we see a lot of students getting degrees and

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Speaker 1: then struggling in an occupation potentially where they can't pay

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Speaker 1: back all of that student debt. And I know the

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Speaker 1: Obama administration made some steps towards this, creating that college scorecard.

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Speaker 1: I have a daughter who sevent team we're looking at colleges. I'm,

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Speaker 1: you know, having these conversations with her about what are

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Speaker 1: you going to study? What are you gonna do, so

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Speaker 1: that you think about on the other side, But we

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Speaker 1: do need to kind of think about this. This is too, unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: has become because college educations have gotten so expensive, a

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Speaker 1: business proposition, right, And I think I've looked at this

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Speaker 1: often from the lens of thinking about the mortgage debt crisis,

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Speaker 1: because I was at the Federal Reserve during that time

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Speaker 1: and thinking out consumers and household finance and debt is

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Speaker 1: not necessarily bad. It depends on the return you get

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Speaker 1: on that debt. For many, many students, getting higher education

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Speaker 1: is what launches them into a better career, other better

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Speaker 1: career than their parents or grandparents had. But for students

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Speaker 1: who do not finish or do not get a high

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Speaker 1: quality education, they leave with no better earnings than they

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Speaker 1: came in and a lot of debt. Right, So it

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Speaker 1: really depends. And to your point about the college scorecard,

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Speaker 1: the intention of that is to get good information out

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Speaker 1: so that parents, students, people working coming back to education

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Speaker 1: later in life, that they select institutions and select programs

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Speaker 1: that have that high return on investment. Right, It's something

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Speaker 1: don't think the scorecards enough. I applaud you for using it,

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Speaker 1: but like just information isn't going to cut it. Well,

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Speaker 1: give us, give us your checklist of what you think

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Speaker 1: about administration needs to do to make this to deal

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Speaker 1: with this, because the numbers have gotten out of control.

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Speaker 1: I feel like all of the numbers associated with getting

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Speaker 1: a college degree, the cost, the process of getting there,

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Speaker 1: um like a lot of it has just gotten out

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Speaker 1: of out of control. So what would you say that

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Speaker 1: a Biden administration needs to do when it comes to

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Speaker 1: student debts specifically? So the most important thing is they

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Speaker 1: have to focus on and deliver on accountability. Right, So,

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Speaker 1: all three of the proposals that I talked about in

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Speaker 1: the piece the college scorecard, we already talked about getting

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Speaker 1: information taken a really hard look at what these schools

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Speaker 1: are delivering and not fulling punches, and the other two

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Speaker 1: are much more directly accountability. So one is what was

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Speaker 1: on the books as a gainful employment program. The Secretary

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Speaker 1: Gavos has walked this back to some extent, although made

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Speaker 1: some good arguments about why it wasn't good enough and

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Speaker 1: that it was very focused on private, for profit colleges.

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Speaker 1: And I firmly believe and I agree with her on this,

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Speaker 1: and researchers across the political spectrum do to you gotta

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Speaker 1: hold all institutions accountable. I talked with Professor Jordan's Matsudera

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Speaker 1: in the speech or in the in the piece I'm sorry,

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Speaker 1: and he said what he thinks is important, having studied

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Speaker 1: this while he was at the Council of Economic Advisors,

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Speaker 1: is that you should do a program by program institutions

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Speaker 1: is too broad of a blanket because there are public

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Speaker 1: institutions that deliver some great education and they have some

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Speaker 1: programs that really shouldn't be there, and they're getting funding

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Speaker 1: a huge stick for these universities and other institutions if

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Speaker 1: you say you won't get our federal loans dollars right,

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Speaker 1: And so that's important. And the last one I touched on,

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Speaker 1: which is absolutely not sexy and I would understand that

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Speaker 1: they wouldn't put this friends and center, is the mortgage.

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Speaker 1: The student loans are serviced by private company. This is

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Speaker 1: the same thing that happened with the mortgages that not

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Speaker 1: paying attention to them and holding them accountable cause problems

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Speaker 1: over a decade ago in the mortgage space, and it

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Speaker 1: is it is causing and will continue to cause problems

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Speaker 1: in the student loan space. We have forgiveness programs on

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Speaker 1: the books that like a handful of individuals have qualified for,

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Speaker 1: and part of it as services are not motivated to

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Speaker 1: tell students with debt about those Yeah, to stop, no listen.

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Speaker 1: I remember, like I said, when that first headline once

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Speaker 1: came out, I think when it was it when student

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Speaker 1: debt hit a trillion dollars and doing a story and

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Speaker 1: talking to people who had student debt and you know,

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Speaker 1: their wages were being garnished because of depending whether they

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Speaker 1: had private loans or stuff. I mean, it's just really

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Speaker 1: problematic and we need to kind of all go in

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Speaker 1: this eyes wide open if you will, and some changes. Um,

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Speaker 1: how likely just got about thirty seconds here. How likely

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Speaker 1: do you expect something to come out of the Biden

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Speaker 1: administration when it comes to student loans? Well, this is

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Speaker 1: a lever that they have and they're going to have

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Speaker 1: to use it. Right, They're gonna not have a lot

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Speaker 1: of levers they'd like to putting out. How there's a

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Speaker 1: billions trillions of dollars through Congress. This one they can do.

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Speaker 1: I just want them to take an and both approach

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Speaker 1: and look at a lot of tools. So that's what

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Speaker 1: success will depend on. Yeah, exactly right, multifaceted to get

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Speaker 1: something done. Claudia, thank you so much. Really appreciate your

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Speaker 1: time today. Clodia Psalm, She's founder of Stay at Home

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Speaker 1: Macro Consulting. She's a former Federal Reserve economists known for

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Speaker 1: creating the some role, which is uh an indicator of

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Speaker 1: the recession. But listen, student loans, it's been a problem

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Speaker 1: for multiple years and certainly something that will be facing

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Speaker 1: the Biden administration. All right, you are listening to Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: Markets on this Monday. I'm Karl Master and Travanni Quinn

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Speaker 1: and Paul Sweeney want to get into what were some

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Speaker 1: of the hottest jobs and top paid skills of in

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Speaker 1: a market environment, In a jobs market where we know

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Speaker 1: some folks didn't feel too much pain because of the

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Speaker 1: pandemic and others really dealt a big, big blow when

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Speaker 1: it came to the virus impact on their jobs and

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Speaker 1: their ability to make a living. So let's see what

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Speaker 1: the CEO pay Scale is seeing. Scott Tory is with

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Speaker 1: us on the phone from Seattle, Washington. Scott, great to

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Speaker 1: have you here with us. How are you good? Morning

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Speaker 1: care I'm fantastic. Thanks for having me. Well, it's good

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Speaker 1: to have you here with us. Um, talk to us

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Speaker 1: a little bit about your reflection back first of all,

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Speaker 1: and what you guys are finding about because it was

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Speaker 1: a strange year, to say the least, a difficult year

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Speaker 1: for many, but that didn't mean some people in terms

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Speaker 1: of their jobs and their occupations, they were in demand.

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Speaker 1: They were Dickens was rather prophetic. It was the best

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Speaker 1: of times and worse of times in this market. And

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Speaker 1: I have to begin by thanking the millions of people

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Speaker 1: that that came to pay Scale to share this data

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Speaker 1: that makes our job Trends and Skills report possible and

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Speaker 1: here's a couple of things we found. There are some

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Speaker 1: particularly fast growing jobs in terms of both wages UH

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Speaker 1: and other metrics. Health screeners up a hundred thirty six.

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Speaker 1: You see them out and about every place you go. Now,

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Speaker 1: the number of personal shoppers and the wages associate them

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Speaker 1: have gone up a d But Kara, one you may

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Speaker 1: not know about is r V technicians. Their wages are

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Speaker 1: of ninety seven percent. Actually, that does not surprise me

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Speaker 1: because we know and from a lot of conversations I've

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Speaker 1: had with you know, individuals, certainly in the leisure industry

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Speaker 1: or travel. You know, people didn't get on planes, people

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Speaker 1: didn't go to big hotels. People wanted to go. A

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Speaker 1: lot of people were buying boats, campers, you name it

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Speaker 1: where they could be away from people, for sure. And

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Speaker 1: it's it's a good example of kind of the resiliency

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Speaker 1: and people pivoting to what what we can do instead

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Speaker 1: of always confronting what we can't. Well, it's interesting, So

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Speaker 1: what about the labor trends Scott that we're seeing here

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Speaker 1: in What does it, if anything, tell us about what

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Speaker 1: we might see because I do think in you know,

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Speaker 1: we've said this a million times in in eras of

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Speaker 1: crisis often comes out of it innovation, but sometimes that

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Speaker 1: also means disruption in terms of jobs needed or jobs

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Speaker 1: needed no more. So I do wonder what that means. Listen.

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Speaker 1: I think there are two fundamental trends that come out

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Speaker 1: of twenty that are not going away. One is the

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Speaker 1: pivot that many companies are confronting with remote work um

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Speaker 1: and for those those UH areas of the economy, they

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Speaker 1: can work remotely, and increasingly high percentage of companies are

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Speaker 1: choosing to do so, whether they go remote, hybrid or partially,

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Speaker 1: or they bring everybody back because that's the culture that

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Speaker 1: they need. That trend and confronting that trend is something

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Speaker 1: every company is gonna have to deal with. The second

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Speaker 1: is the shift we've seen, certainly with the social trends,

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Speaker 1: with the trends associate with Black Lives Matter, and the

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Speaker 1: drive towards pay equity and transparency of that. Pay equity

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Speaker 1: is a trend that will will last well beyond and

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Speaker 1: should last well beyond because it's the right thing to

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Speaker 1: do well. Okay, And I do wonder because we've talked

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Speaker 1: also about women, um, you know, women leaving the workforce

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Speaker 1: because of the pandemic um. You've seen some of the

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Speaker 1: numbers that are out there women who are no longer

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Speaker 1: you know in that in that pipeline with p and

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Speaker 1: L profit and laws, responsibility is that they've been taken out.

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Speaker 1: I do wonder how much of the gaps, the inequities

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Speaker 1: that ultimately there are some deliberate actions to kind of

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Speaker 1: make up for lost ground, whether it's women, whether it's minorities. Well,

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Speaker 1: I think there are a number of steps, and certainly

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Speaker 1: within with our company, we're taking delivered steps to ensure

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Speaker 1: that that everybody has an opportunity. And these are particularly

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Speaker 1: trying times. You mentioned women and the concept of working

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Speaker 1: from home, having all the challenges of working from home

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Speaker 1: and not having a place to go to get away.

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Speaker 1: Those are really difficult times and we are seeing that

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Speaker 1: in the data in terms of attrition of this wonderful

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Speaker 1: talent that we need to bring back to have an

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Speaker 1: impact on our economy. But there there are so many

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Speaker 1: things we can do. One of the things we encourage

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Speaker 1: folks to do is really get out and ensure they

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Speaker 1: have the data to drive these effective decisions. So pay

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Speaker 1: Scale has a partnership with the USC Race and Equity

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Speaker 1: UH program to really help companies look at the data,

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Speaker 1: assess this data and get ahead of the trends because

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Speaker 1: the legislation will come. But it's really the important social

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Speaker 1: uh pressure that will will be put upon us. But

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Speaker 1: more importantly, this is talent that you need. It's the

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Speaker 1: talent that will make your business better. Uh, and you

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Speaker 1: need to continue to attract and retain it. Right, it's

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Speaker 1: so basic. We've all seen the research and you know

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Speaker 1: the importance of diversity and d n I when it

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Speaker 1: comes to your staffic. Hey just got about thirty seconds

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Speaker 1: left here. Compensation, how is it changing forever? What's changing

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Speaker 1: forever is the idea that you can work from anywhere

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Speaker 1: and what does that really do for for different employers?

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Speaker 1: People are going to happy looking at what skills do

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Speaker 1: I need to be effective? Where can I find those

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Speaker 1: skills and sees this as an opportunity diverse to use

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Speaker 1: this to diversify your talent pool around the world. But

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Speaker 1: in terms of compensation, which changes just very quickly. Uh.

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Speaker 1: They're going to be in certain industries are gonna be

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Speaker 1: going up in a very highway, and until we get

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Speaker 1: the pandemic under control, there will be challenges in those

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Speaker 1: industries that are struggling the most. All right, should be

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Speaker 1: an interesting year, Scott, Thank you so much. Going to

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Speaker 1: leave it on that note, Happy New Year, Scott Tory.

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Speaker 1: He is a CEO of pay Scale. He is the CEO,

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Speaker 1: I should say, at pay Scale, joining us on the

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Speaker 1: phone from Seattle, Washington. So this story definitely caught our attention.

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Speaker 1: It has to do with arbitration and as I said earlier,

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Speaker 1: coming to a doctor and medical practice near you thanks

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Speaker 1: to private equity. So it is among our most write

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Speaker 1: stories on the Bloomberg Gets. Written by Heather pearl Berg.

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Speaker 1: She is Private Equity reporter at Bloomberg News. She joins

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Speaker 1: us on the phone from Baltimore, Heather Man, this is

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Speaker 1: a like story everybody should read in its entirety and

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Speaker 1: really get through the details. So tell us about um

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Speaker 1: Jesse Harrold and tell us about what she recently did

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Speaker 1: and what she found out. Sure, thanks for having me so, yes. So,

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Speaker 1: Jesse Harroll is a lawyer in Florida who took a

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Speaker 1: binding arbitration agreement all the way up to the state

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court. And one I didn't know that in the meantime,

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Speaker 1: the medical practice that was trying to force patients to

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Speaker 1: sign this agreement. Um had bought her own doctor's office,

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Speaker 1: and then when she went for her annual appointment, they

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Speaker 1: asked her to sign the same form. Right, And this

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Speaker 1: is a doctor she'd been going to for years, right,

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Speaker 1: fourteen years delivered her first child. It was an O. B.

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Speaker 1: G U I N. And his entire group had gotten

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Speaker 1: acquired by the same private equity firm. That's a huge

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Speaker 1: and Florida group. We'll talk to us about this. You know,

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Speaker 1: we talked about binding arbitration, right, and we've talked about

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Speaker 1: this a lot when it came to um harassment suits

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Speaker 1: or you know, pay disputes between men and women on

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Speaker 1: Wall Street. And all of a sudden, we you know,

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Speaker 1: it's come to the forefront that there's lots of these

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Speaker 1: arbitration agreements that basically individuals kind of giveaway not kind

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Speaker 1: of they give away their their right to sue. And

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Speaker 1: all of this stuff happens behind closed doors. This is

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Speaker 1: a relatively new thing for the medical community. It's been

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Speaker 1: happening for a little while, but it was very specific,

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Speaker 1: and now it seems that it's cropping up way more

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Speaker 1: in certain specialties like kynecology. Lawyers would say, high risk

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Speaker 1: where doctors are more likely to get food plastic surgery,

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Speaker 1: and you see it a lot with these private equity

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Speaker 1: own nursing as well. Well. How much is the private

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Speaker 1: equity world, Heather, you know, tapping into the medical world

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Speaker 1: increasingly when it comes to investments, it's huge. I mean,

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Speaker 1: private equity has been investing in every corner of health

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Speaker 1: care and it's just becoming more and more common. Whether

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Speaker 1: it's hospitals, doctor's office, is eating disorder, clinics, name it.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they're everywhere. And we've been reporting on the

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Speaker 1: impact of you know that some of this is having

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Speaker 1: on patient care, whether it leads to them buying cheaper

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Speaker 1: supplies or pushing more procedures. And this story really looks

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Speaker 1: at more of how they're bringing their legal prowess to

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Speaker 1: medicine um and how it really does have a large

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Speaker 1: impact on patients and the rights there for sitting right exactly.

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Speaker 1: And you make the important distinction, Howther, that there's arbitration,

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Speaker 1: which some people can think can be a good thing

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Speaker 1: in terms of you know, leading to agreements, but then

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Speaker 1: there's binding arbitration, which takes it to a whole other level. Right,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot there's been a lot of tort reform

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Speaker 1: and it's kind of very state by state and in

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Speaker 1: most cases, uh, when it comes to out practice, the

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Speaker 1: patient and the doctor would go into arbitration after a

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Speaker 1: dispute occurs. In this case, when we're talking about binding arbitration,

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Speaker 1: this is a form that people are signing before they

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Speaker 1: even see the doctor. So they're giving up these rights

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Speaker 1: before anything ever happens. And in most cases people don't

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Speaker 1: really realize what they're signing and they go into a

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00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,000
Speaker 1: doctor's office that I'm guilty of it too, like give

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00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:51,959
Speaker 1: me stato forms and I'm like, okay, I just want

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00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,880
Speaker 1: to see the doctor and signing. So, you know, there's

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00:23:55,880 --> 00:24:00,560
Speaker 1: a real question especially considering these groups are using finding

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00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 1: arbitration agreements that was already you know, considered void by

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00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 1: the Florida Supreme Court, that you know that there's some

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00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:12,640
Speaker 1: sort of patient intimidation or you know, other issue going

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00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:15,200
Speaker 1: on because the patients signing these forms, if they do

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00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,600
Speaker 1: know what they're signing, are assuming that they are valid

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00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:23,000
Speaker 1: and enforceable, so they're much less likely to do or

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00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 1: you know, find the lawyer when they are injured, right exactly.

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00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:29,200
Speaker 1: And it's interesting as you say in your story, howether

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00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:31,600
Speaker 1: it's said. Even though the document is not legally enforceable,

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00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 1: there's nothing preventing the company from asking patients to sign

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00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:36,719
Speaker 1: it and refusing to treat them in the future if

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00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 1: they don't. To be fair, thirty seconds left here, what

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00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 1: do the private equity firms say, Well, they would say

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00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:46,159
Speaker 1: that this has nothing to do with their ownership, that

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00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:50,400
Speaker 1: it's the doctors who have these agreements with the patients

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00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 1: um And in reality, the doctors, once they joined the group,

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00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 1: have to agree that all of their patients, you know,

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00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:01,360
Speaker 1: will be required to sign this. So sure, the doctors

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00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:05,119
Speaker 1: have a little bit of a choice. But you know,

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Speaker 1: if you're a retiring doctor and you're about to join

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Speaker 1: this group with ninety of your colleagues, I don't know

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00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 1: that you're going to just give up your job and

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00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,880
Speaker 1: start over because you don't want your patients to sign

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Speaker 1: this one. It's a little bit of a false Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's just really kind of shocking. Heather pro great story,

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Speaker 1: private equity reporter at Bloomberg News, on the phone from Baltimore.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Bloomberg Markets podcast. You can subscribe

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00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 1: and listen to interviews at Apple podcasts, or whatever podcast

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00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 1: platform you prefer. I'm Bonnie Quinn. I'm on Twitter at

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00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 1: Bonnie Quinn. And Ball Sweeney I'm on Twitter at pt Sweeney.

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Speaker 1: Before the podcast, you can always catch us worldwide at

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Radio