1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: Paper Ghosts is a production of I Heart Radio. We're 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:08,760 Speaker 1: hoping that a family member, a friend, a neighbor, or 3 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:12,800 Speaker 1: someone else will recognize this person and come forward to 4 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: investigators with information that will lead to the identity. For 5 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:18,919 Speaker 1: just a moment in two thousand thirteen, there was a 6 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:21,319 Speaker 1: glint of hope that the remains of one of the 7 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: missing girls had been discovered. A twenty three year old 8 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: college student looking to collect scrap metal for an art 9 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 1: project was walking through the woods near his home in 10 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:33,560 Speaker 1: Vernon when he came across a female skull and other 11 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:37,560 Speaker 1: human remains. At first, there was a strong belief among 12 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 1: Vernon police that they could have belonged to either Jani's Pocket, 13 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:45,559 Speaker 1: Lisa White, or Debbie Spickler, and for April White Filetti, 14 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:49,560 Speaker 1: Lisa White's sister. This discovery was the first time ever 15 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:53,480 Speaker 1: that felt as though her sister was finally coming home. 16 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: In my heart, I never thought it was anybody else 17 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: but Lisa. It was too close to how I just 18 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: had a gut feeling that it was my sister, and 19 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:09,040 Speaker 1: um alls I wanted was at that point closure for myself, 20 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 1: closure for my mom. It was like a knife in 21 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 1: my heart when we found out. The remains were found 22 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: in a rugged area that was once a town dump site. 23 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: It was an area not only close to where Lisa 24 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: White lived, but where she had frequently hung out with friends. 25 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 1: It became a harrowing four days before the results of 26 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: whether any of the dental records provided a match to 27 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 1: one of the missing girls took forever, or at least 28 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 1: I don't even remember how long. For me, it felt 29 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:42,400 Speaker 1: like years getting the answer, just waiting, and it was 30 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: right before my birthday, and I just kept saying to myself, 31 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: all I want for my birthday is this to be 32 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 1: found as Lisa. That's all I wanted. Years went by 33 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: before police positively I did the remains as that of 34 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 1: a petit forty old woman who had gone missing years earlier. 35 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 1: These families, I cannot say it enough, live with this daily. 36 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 1: A body found, a knock on the door, a telephone call, 37 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:17,920 Speaker 1: they get their hopes up, and it's back to reality, 38 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: no answers. I get a call from one of the 39 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 1: Vernon p D detectives and so I'm holding my breath 40 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:32,639 Speaker 1: and they said, we've got the conclusion that this isn't 41 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: your sister. These remains are not your sister. And I 42 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 1: immediately just sat on the floor like somebody just punched 43 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 1: me in the gut. And then the tears just came in, 44 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 1: came in, came previously on paper Ghosts, it opens up 45 00:02:58,000 --> 00:02:59,919 Speaker 1: a candle worms. It takes us down a rabbit hole. 46 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 1: But even after all that, I go back and I'm like, 47 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 1: where does that leave us? It leaves us with the 48 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 1: question still, where is Debbie Spickler? What happened to her? 49 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 1: A lot of looked the same, So we started looking 50 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 1: at it is this more than one person? Was this? 51 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 1: Like you know somebody that was doing this in the area, 52 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:22,799 Speaker 1: you know, abducting you children at age or around that age. 53 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 1: Somehow I crawled through Christmas. Lisa's presence lay there unopened. 54 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 1: We existed through March. I was completely disillusioned by the 55 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 1: local clues. My name is and William Phelps. This is 56 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: paper Ghosts. For as long as I've investigated the disappearances 57 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: of the young girls, there has never been a shortage 58 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 1: of people coming forward and willing to discuss the cases 59 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 1: with me. In the very beginning, they thought she'd wandered off. 60 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 1: That most of those details I've heard countless times, and 61 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 1: it was a missing person it was a little girl 62 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: who wandered into the woods. But then every once in 63 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 1: a while I meet a new source who leaves me speechless. 64 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: I think I'm the only person alive still that actually 65 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 1: worked on the case from the beginning. The latter recently 66 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:28,040 Speaker 1: happened when a retired police officer who worked the Janis 67 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 1: Pocket and Lisa White cases reached out to me with 68 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 1: information he thought I'd be interested in. We met on 69 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: a Sunday afternoon on the north end of Crystal Lake. 70 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:43,720 Speaker 1: The Wendel property and those water wells were to our right. 71 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:47,799 Speaker 1: The gorgeous lake sprawled out in front of us. After 72 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 1: some discussion, we decided it better not to use his name, 73 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:55,359 Speaker 1: but I have verified his credentials, which are impressive. Not 74 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 1: only did he retire at the highest rank in his department, 75 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:01,599 Speaker 1: but he's a lawyer as well. I was interested in 76 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:04,599 Speaker 1: what he had to say about Janis Pockets case. She 77 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 1: was the youngest of the girls who disappeared, and that 78 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:09,480 Speaker 1: image of her riding her bike to go find the 79 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:16,280 Speaker 1: dead butterfly continuously haunts me. Now I think we're two 80 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,479 Speaker 1: days into it when I get the call that it's 81 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:23,840 Speaker 1: going to be uh An abduction of some type. Are 82 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:28,159 Speaker 1: you aware of the ransom calls for her? A couple 83 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 1: of them. I mean, I've heard all kinds of stuff. 84 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: When Janice Pocket first disappeared, there were two calls came 85 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 1: two different days, and one of them was to make 86 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 1: the reward ten thousand dollars you might get your daughter back. 87 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: That's probably verbatim what it was. I had heard it 88 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 1: so many times. The other one was make the reward 89 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: twenty dollars and you'll see Janice again. So somebody had 90 00:05:57,279 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 1: the presence of mine is at least to put a 91 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:03,280 Speaker 1: tape recorder on the pocket phone early on, so both 92 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:08,600 Speaker 1: of those calls were recorded. They gotta remember technology then 93 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:13,160 Speaker 1: wasn't what it is today. It took days for them 94 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 1: to figure out where the phone calls came from. I 95 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: asked him next if the blackmailer was possibly an opportunist 96 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 1: and just trying to capitalize on the pockets pain and vulnerability. Yeah, 97 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 1: at the time you didn't know. But the phone calls 98 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:34,040 Speaker 1: came from the phone booth in the center of Colin 99 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 1: at the Colin Green in front of where the old 100 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 1: tolland jail used to be. This area he's talking about 101 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 1: is one point eight miles from where Janice went missing, 102 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:47,280 Speaker 1: just a three minute drive. There was no way of 103 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 1: knowing if there was gonna be a third call, So 104 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 1: we did surveillance. I was part of that. On that 105 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: phone booth. It would take days to trace the call, 106 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: or at least many hours. So what and the idea was, well, 107 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: we'll watch the booth, get the redge number of the 108 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 1: call in f at to fourteen, we see somebody going 109 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 1: and make a call, will make the the notation. But 110 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 1: it didn't quite work that way because you couldn't always 111 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: see the redge of the vehicle and all that. But 112 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: the interesting thing is the guy who made the call 113 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 1: had had a gravelly old, distinct voice. Those ransom calls 114 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:33,679 Speaker 1: never went anywhere. The old sounding guy was never found. 115 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: My gut tells me this was someone trying to capitalize 116 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: on the pain of a missing child's family, nothing more. 117 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 1: Then my source tells me a story about what happened 118 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:50,119 Speaker 1: about a month after Janice disappeared, and well, it makes 119 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: me think he had a very good person of interest 120 00:07:53,600 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: in Janice's case. It wasn't Bob Larossa. In the hours 121 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: after law enforcement decided Jane's pocket had been abducted. My 122 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: new source tells me a suspect quickly emerged once police 123 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 1: began knocking on doors doing the neighborhood canvas. An incident 124 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 1: comes up from several different people, women about a soda 125 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 1: delivery man who is offensive, invites himself into the house, 126 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:38,959 Speaker 1: um does things that would be very awkward in onenore. 127 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 1: His name was. He was fired because of this incident 128 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: and not because of pocket because these women or a 129 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 1: woman complained and apparently they had other complaints. Then my 130 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 1: source reveals this served twenty years in prison for raping 131 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 1: an eight year old girl in kind of a game. 132 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:04,680 Speaker 1: So this pedophile served his twenty years for raping an 133 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 1: eight year old girl, then goes to work delivering soda 134 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:11,959 Speaker 1: in Janice Pockets neighborhood and he's cruising around in a truck. 135 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 1: I recall several people telling me over the years they 136 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 1: had seen a truck in the neighborhood near the time 137 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:23,080 Speaker 1: Janie disappeared, but nothing had ever come of it. Now, 138 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 1: after learning this, I wonder was the alleged sighting of 139 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: Babla Rosa and his parked station wagon in the middle 140 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 1: of the road an unlikely occurrence, or is this new 141 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 1: suspect just one of many creeps I'm learning about that 142 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: often hung out in the area. We got a search 143 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 1: warrant for his house. He lived with a woman right 144 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 1: where the seven eleven is. That address my source mentions 145 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:50,679 Speaker 1: it's down the street, a half mile from where Lisa 146 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: White went missing. I mean, look the coincidences developing here, 147 00:09:55,559 --> 00:10:00,559 Speaker 1: the locations, the criminal record, they're hard to ignore. This 148 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: new suspect never admitted to Janice pocket subduction, and I've 149 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:07,960 Speaker 1: learned he was never ruled out as a person of interest. 150 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 1: Just when it felt like my search for answers was 151 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 1: finally producing the strongest lead yet, I'm hit with this 152 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 1: new information changing everything. You'd think it would get easy 153 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 1: every time an investigation gets thrown off course, but it's 154 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:26,959 Speaker 1: just another example of how these cold cases always seemed 155 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:32,199 Speaker 1: to take one step back from bringing these families answers. 156 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 1: Let me ask you this, if another little girl on 157 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 1: a bicycle disappeared thirty days after the pocket case, within 158 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 1: five miles of the pocket house, would you think if 159 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 1: you could solve one, you'd probably solve them both. Absolutely, 160 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 1: so that happened. You don't know that, I do you? Now? 161 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 1: That was information I had not heard. That's interesting that 162 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 1: another little girl. Was it in Talent or was it 163 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 1: in Vernon? Right over here, he points straight ahead to 164 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 1: the south side of Crystal Lake by the public Beach, 165 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: an area where the witness grew up. There are three 166 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 1: narrow roads across from the public beach which track upwards 167 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: into a wooded area. Back in the day, these roads 168 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 1: would have been dirt with dense force on both sides. 169 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:30,200 Speaker 1: An eleven year old girl is riding her bicycle. She 170 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 1: sees a car pass her. Carc turns around, comes back, 171 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 1: sees it pass her again, doesn't give it any thought. 172 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:40,439 Speaker 1: She goes a bit further. All of a sudden, a 173 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:43,839 Speaker 1: guy jumps out of the woods and drags her off 174 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 1: the bicycle and is trying to take her into the woods. 175 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:51,719 Speaker 1: And then this happened. This is a one in a gazillion. 176 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:56,200 Speaker 1: A state trooper, a big red aticket from Chickabee, is 177 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 1: coming down the road. He sees it happened. He jumps 178 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 1: out and you know, gets into a fight with the guy. 179 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 1: He tells me the guy's name, a name incidentally, I 180 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 1: have never heard. And it's not the soda delivery guy either. 181 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 1: This is yet another scumbag trolling the streets looking for 182 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 1: a young girl. I mean two of these cases in 183 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:21,560 Speaker 1: this small area within a month. I think about this 184 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: today in wonder where the hell did I live growing up. 185 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 1: What's more, the guy was a school teacher. He was 186 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:33,600 Speaker 1: supposed to be in an orientation meeting for new teachers. 187 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 1: He was supposed to be there, he wasn't there. Instead 188 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 1: of being there, he was out here trying to pull 189 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 1: a girl off a bicycle. And then a month before, 190 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: could you play him in toll in their pocket? The 191 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 1: day that this happened, you know, I was there. I 192 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 1: was in the barracks when they brought him in and 193 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:56,319 Speaker 1: he was kind of lumped up, and they took a 194 00:12:56,400 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 1: mug shot of him, and then you saw him after. 195 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:05,440 Speaker 1: You'd never know what was the same person. It's just 196 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 1: it's just I He's one of those people where when 197 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 1: he was cleaned up and had glasses on and everything, 198 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 1: he had a very different look to him. He looked 199 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:17,320 Speaker 1: more like a school teacher. The day that brought him in, 200 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: he looked like somebody who tried to pull a little 201 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 1: girl off a bicycle. I can't tell you how many 202 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:26,200 Speaker 1: times I have interviewed survivors of serial killer attacks, who 203 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: described how the man who attacked them looked one way 204 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:32,319 Speaker 1: right before the attack, and like a different person altogether 205 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 1: just after. It's like that mask of sanity these guys 206 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 1: were comes off. My source went on to explain how 207 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 1: after some digging, they found out that this teacher was 208 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: also a driving instructor in the next town over, so 209 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 1: they began talking to his former driver's ed students, and 210 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:59,679 Speaker 1: there it was. We found two girls and we said 211 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 1: where did he take you? And they said we went 212 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:08,720 Speaker 1: all over, mostly rural places or wooded places because he 213 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:11,720 Speaker 1: raised hunting dogs and he would take us for he 214 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 1: went hunting. So he said, okay, well you know, can 215 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 1: you take us? And long story short, they led us 216 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 1: to tolland the police obviously wanted to question the teacher 217 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 1: about Janis pocket. They had several victims identify him for 218 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 1: indecent exposure acts around the Tritown region, so they alternated 219 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 1: filing arrest warrants. As soon as he was released on one, 220 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 1: they'd slap another one on him and drag him back in. 221 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 1: I then asked the obvious next question, what did he 222 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 1: say about Jane's pocket? This is so important that people 223 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 1: don't understand it. He never denied taking Janice pocket. He 224 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 1: never denied, never denied it. He had talked to us 225 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: until we got to that, and then he just sit there. 226 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 1: He lawyered up. He got an attorney who eventually got 227 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: a restraining order that we couldn't go within a hundred 228 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 1: yards of him because we were doing that. I mean, 229 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 1: we were harassing him. It was you know what. There 230 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 1: was one victim who was a young girl. He pulled up, 231 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 1: exposed himself to her, and you know, she looked at 232 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: the photos and I think that my aim with him mind, 233 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: and so we decided we'd do a lineup, and so 234 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 1: we got four troopers and playing clothes. So we bring 235 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: her in. If we had a videotape of the five people, 236 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: it would have been priceless. We brought him in and 237 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 1: his knees buckled. He recognized her, She recognized him. Well, 238 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: it was you know, she identified him, and that was 239 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 1: one more arrest ate. Next thing they did was get 240 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 1: a search warrant for the house the teacher lived in 241 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 1: with his parents, and up in the floor jor the rafters, 242 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 1: up in the basement, we found the gun. It was 243 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:07,320 Speaker 1: a plastic gun. It looked very real, and the father 244 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 1: said he puts them there. And the mother, I think 245 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 1: had some type of mental issues. She was sitting on 246 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 1: the kitchen floor with wet towels on her head when 247 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 1: we executed the searchboard. For me, the plastic gun is significant. 248 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 1: I'm thinking intimidation and control. You put a plastic gun 249 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 1: in front of a kid, they don't know it's plastic. 250 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 1: The prosecutor ultimately dropped the ball and cut a deal 251 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 1: with this guy for no prison time, giving him instead 252 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: accelerated rehabilitation under the condition he surrenders teaching license. The 253 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 1: thing that strikes me about this was an only child, 254 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 1: his parents were older. Now what's significant about that is 255 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: about five maybe ten years later, father is arrested for 256 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 1: sexually assaulting a nephew. The house this guy lived in 257 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 1: with his parents was about twenty minutes from where Janice 258 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 1: Pocket was abducted. But here's the thing. Has never left 259 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 1: that house really that botherished me. He also never denied 260 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 1: abducting and killing Janice. Never that that's the thing that 261 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:24,359 Speaker 1: bothers me the most. You'd expect him to say, fuck you, 262 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 1: are you crazy? You know, stuff like that. Never ever 263 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 1: denied it, and he hasn't left the house, and he doesn't, 264 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 1: you know, And it was most people move on, you know, 265 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:38,400 Speaker 1: like so your parents house by a bigger house. It's 266 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 1: a small little house. And it just strikes me, why 267 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 1: why didn't you know? Why didn't he leave there? You know? 268 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:49,159 Speaker 1: And and if his father was the evil bastard we 269 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:51,399 Speaker 1: think he is, wouldn't that be a house full of 270 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:53,679 Speaker 1: bad memories? I'd say, I want to dig up the art. 271 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:56,640 Speaker 1: I mean, really, that That's why I would. I would 272 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 1: do it. You see, I don't believe either White or 273 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:03,680 Speaker 1: pocket where somebody, you know, nobody would have stumbled. It's 274 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 1: somebody who's from around here who stalked them. The new 275 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 1: information I've received from my source has certainly given my 276 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:23,399 Speaker 1: investigation a shot of adrenaline. It's also not surprising, for 277 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 1: as long as I have been investigating these disappearances, the 278 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:31,199 Speaker 1: number of leads and suspects ebbs and flows. I go 279 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: north for a time, then a new bit of information 280 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:37,920 Speaker 1: sends me south. As much as you'd think men would 281 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:41,120 Speaker 1: want their names as far away from any possible connection, 282 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:45,200 Speaker 1: there were also those who tried to insert themselves, mostly 283 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 1: for selfish purposes and sociopathic motivations. The most notable of 284 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 1: them Charles Pierce. In nineteen eight, Pierce began admitting murdering 285 00:18:56,359 --> 00:19:00,439 Speaker 1: over a dozen young girls. Fifty eight years old, a 286 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 1: former carnival worker from Haverville, Massachusetts. Pierce killed a thirteen 287 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:10,160 Speaker 1: year old Boxford, Massachusetts girl in nineteen sixty nine, a Chicago, 288 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 1: Illinois boy in nineteen seventy three, and then he told 289 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 1: Illinois investigators he had abducted and murdered fifteen to twenty 290 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 1: two children between nineteen fifty four in nineteen seventy eight. 291 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 1: Have a Reville in Boxford, or about a ninety minute 292 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 1: drive from Tolland. In late nineteen eighty, Pierce told Connecticut 293 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 1: State police he knew where Janis pocket was buried. The 294 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 1: police looked into his claims and even brought his mug 295 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 1: shot to Nancy McDonald, the neighbor who saw a man 296 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: and his station wagon blocking the dirt road around the 297 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 1: time Janice disappeared. Mary angele Breck, who you heard in 298 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:52,639 Speaker 1: episode one, has had a suspicion and really wanted to 299 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:57,120 Speaker 1: believe that Pierce was responsible for her sister's disappearance. Look 300 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 1: Pierce seemed to fit and well. He admitted his involvement. 301 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:05,679 Speaker 1: So I met up with Mary at a coffee shop 302 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 1: one sunny afternoon in late August to clear up several 303 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 1: unanswered questions. The guy that they brought to um the 304 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 1: neighbor was Charles Pierce. It was okay, it was Charles Pierce. 305 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 1: And She's like, Nope, that wasn't him. Not him, Because 306 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:25,440 Speaker 1: Charles Pierce, remember, says I killed Janice. I know where 307 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:28,160 Speaker 1: she's buried. He also starts saying I killed this one, 308 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:30,159 Speaker 1: I killed that one. He wanted some days out in 309 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: the field. That's the detective's side. Yeah, yeah, and he 310 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 1: would he could give all these details, but then no 311 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:39,640 Speaker 1: detail about where she was actually buried because he changed 312 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 1: his mind so many times. What Mary says next tightens 313 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 1: a few loose ends up from me. Remember the crime 314 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 1: scene I walked out to with Lieutenant Bill Meyer and 315 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 1: Terry Shanks where Terry's sister, Susan Lross's remains were recovered. 316 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 1: It was a wooded area, old logging trail by a 317 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:59,440 Speaker 1: reservoir that was once dragged for Janice's body not too 318 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 1: long after she went missing. Charles Pierce had led police 319 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:07,160 Speaker 1: there claiming he put Janice is and Debbie Spickler's bodies 320 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:11,880 Speaker 1: in that reservoir. There was a place off a reservoir 321 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:14,440 Speaker 1: road he brought them to to dig at one point. 322 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 1: I think that was ever really widely known, but one 323 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:21,160 Speaker 1: of the former detectives told me that. But it definitely 324 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:23,400 Speaker 1: was a few spots on by Rose Road and old 325 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 1: cat Hole there where big dug. I remember Rhodes Road 326 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 1: is where Janice placed the butterfly cat hole intersects with 327 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 1: it about halfway down. All this searching and talked by 328 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 1: convicted serial killers and convicts, it lead nowhere. And yet, 329 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,200 Speaker 1: as I've learned, just when you think you've chased every 330 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 1: rabbit down every hole, there's always another one to follow. 331 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: Based off that tip police received from Tina LaRosa via 332 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 1: her conversations with the witness about buried bodies and water wells, 333 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,399 Speaker 1: the Connecticut State Police, along with the detective from the 334 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,360 Speaker 1: Vernon p D, followed up and spent three days poking 335 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:13,400 Speaker 1: him asking him questions. Afterwards, he left Tina voicemail, I've 336 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 1: listened to it, and let me just say this, the 337 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:22,360 Speaker 1: witness was more than pissed. Mary in turn, had heard 338 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,119 Speaker 1: from the state police about the visit herself and wanted 339 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: to share what she knew. They were up there for 340 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 1: three days. They questioned him all afternoon, took a break, 341 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 1: went back, and the evening again the next day, and 342 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 1: then the third day before they left, Vernon police went 343 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:45,360 Speaker 1: up with them. They questioned him like repeatedly, and they 344 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: about stuff, and he said, I don't remember. I never 345 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:53,120 Speaker 1: said that. Then they would say, but it's right here 346 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 1: in this report that you said that. They'd show him 347 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: and say, I don't remember, and they're like, they don't 348 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:02,719 Speaker 1: know if he was dying or really can't remember. They 349 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 1: said it was hard to tell either. He might just 350 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:07,919 Speaker 1: be a really good liar. Like the other relatives of 351 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:12,359 Speaker 1: the missing girls, Mary understands, these cases take one step forward, 352 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,879 Speaker 1: two steps back. At this point, it was impossible really 353 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 1: for any of us to become disillusioned or surprised by 354 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:24,359 Speaker 1: what we heard. They asked him the same questions in 355 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:26,159 Speaker 1: so many different ways, to see if you mess up, 356 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 1: you know, and stuff. But he really stuck too. They 357 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,400 Speaker 1: couldn't get anything at it him, like, not a thing, 358 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:36,440 Speaker 1: not any information, and they have like, it doesn't sound 359 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 1: like they have any intention of going back there unless 360 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 1: he makes contact so close yet so absolutely far. The 361 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:52,200 Speaker 1: witnesses seemingly brought everyone to the brink of discovery, but 362 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 1: has pulled back for some reason. In a second voicemail, 363 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 1: I heard the witness had asked Tina for an envelope 364 00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:03,200 Speaker 1: and postage so he could mail her a hand drawn 365 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 1: map of the wells in the exact location he was 366 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:11,880 Speaker 1: pointing to. Unfortunately, Tina, scared of giving the witness her address, 367 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 1: never sent that envelope. They weren't trying to think make 368 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:18,680 Speaker 1: him seem like he was definitely guilty. You just don't 369 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 1: know if he knew anything, But he denied knowledge about 370 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 1: even Susan Lerossa dying, and he knew nothing about that. 371 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:30,360 Speaker 1: He had no knowledge about how what happened to her. 372 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,440 Speaker 1: Obviously that isn't true, as the witness and Bob were 373 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 1: best friends and often hung out around the time Susan 374 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:44,119 Speaker 1: LaRosa disappeared. Despite all of that, however, it's time for 375 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:47,639 Speaker 1: me to reach out to the witness. At this point, 376 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 1: I'm not really sure he has involved other than knowing 377 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:54,159 Speaker 1: Bob and Nathan LaRosa and possibly hearing details about the 378 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 1: cases from them, but he's definitely an important piece of 379 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 1: the puzzle. Law enforcement is putting a lot of credibility 380 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:05,640 Speaker 1: into He's the only one of the men I've been 381 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:09,880 Speaker 1: looking at who is still alive, and wow, this might 382 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:25,119 Speaker 1: be my only shot. Oh. In the next episode of 383 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 1: Paper Ghosts, I'm the youngest person involved in it. And 384 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,359 Speaker 1: if I don't step up and try to help figure 385 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:35,439 Speaker 1: it out and I die, that's it. It goes away, 386 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: because nobody below me is gonna care. Look for the 387 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 1: last time, I didn't kill anybody. I didn't hurt nobody. 388 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:50,639 Speaker 1: I didn't kidnap anybody. Paper Ghosts is written and executive 389 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 1: produced by me and William Phelps, with help from producer 390 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 1: Christina Everett and sound editing by Pete Cardy from back 391 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:01,880 Speaker 1: Room Audio. A special thing to Abu Safar and Will 392 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:05,920 Speaker 1: Pearson from My Heart Radio. The series theme number four 393 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,480 Speaker 1: four two is written and performed by Tom Mooney and 394 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 1: Thomas Phelps. For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit 395 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 396 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:20,360 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.