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Speaker 1: This one was mentioned in our recent episode on the

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Speaker 1: militarization of the police because the bandits who robbed a

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Speaker 1: bank in Los Angeles were so heavily armed to the

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Speaker 1: teeth that they outgunned the cops, which led to police

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Speaker 1: carrying assault rifles to protect themselves from another event like this.

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Speaker 1: Except this robbery was so off the rails you can

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Speaker 1: kind of imagine there might not ever be one like

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Speaker 1: it again.

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Speaker 2: Away we go, Welcome to Stuff you should know, a

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Speaker 2: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck,

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Speaker 1: and there's Jerry, and we're just well, Jerry's not here. Actually,

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Speaker 1: now that I mentioned it, those useoph habit, wasn't it.

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Speaker 3: A ghost of Jerry?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, she's not. She's still with us, said, she's driving

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Speaker 1: the getaway car.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, she's not that kind of ghost.

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Speaker 1: No no, no, no, no, no, she's the kind of ghost

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Speaker 1: that drives a getaway car. Right. So I mentioned that, though, Chuck,

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Speaker 1: because it's apropos of the heist episode we're about to

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Speaker 1: talk about, which I guess this would qualify as a heist.

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Speaker 3: Right, Oh, I mean heck yeah, Well, usually.

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Speaker 1: To me, heists are a little more intricate most of

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Speaker 1: the time successful. This is a little more brute firepower

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Speaker 1: than than any other heist or most other heists, So

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Speaker 1: that's why it kind of disqualifies it in my opinion.

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Speaker 1: Oh okay, that's my essay on heists.

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Speaker 3: I don't even know what the definition of heist is.

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Speaker 1: I just gave it to you.

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Speaker 3: Apparently it is a robbery, So yeah, sure.

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Speaker 1: I mean, of course it's a robbery. But and this

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Speaker 1: qualifies as a robbery. It's just it's its own.

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Speaker 3: Unique thing, for sure, man big time.

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Speaker 1: And you know, as you're reading this, it's so theatrical,

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Speaker 1: it's so just totally off the chain nuts that this

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Speaker 1: actually has in real life. It's you have to remind

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Speaker 1: yourself from time to time like these are like really

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Speaker 1: really bad guys and what they were doing was beyond reprehensible.

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Speaker 1: It's just we're so trained to get sucked into that

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Speaker 1: kind of like action in the movies that when it

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Speaker 1: happens in real life you have to like kind of

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Speaker 1: turn off that entertainment part of it and bring yourself

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Speaker 1: back to reality. Sometimes, at least I did. I had

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Speaker 1: trouble doing it during research a few times.

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Speaker 4: No, for sure, and we're talking about the North Hollywood

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Speaker 4: shootout is what it's known a lot as the Battle

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Speaker 4: of North Hollywood sometimes. And this was on February twenty

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Speaker 4: eighth and nineteen ninety seven, when two dudes armed to

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Speaker 4: the hilt with assault rifles like anything you can think of.

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Speaker 4: And this is, as we'll see a time when and

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Speaker 4: this is kind of one of the big sort of

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Speaker 4: I guess, interesting and scary parts about this. This is

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Speaker 4: when cops like people could be more out armed than

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Speaker 4: the police that are trying to stop them, right, And

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Speaker 4: that's what happened the day that they engaged, when North

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Speaker 4: Hollywood became a war zoned for a little while.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and as a matter of fact, this episode, this

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Speaker 1: event led directly to the militarization of police forces, as

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Speaker 1: we see these two guys basically pressed that issue because yeah,

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Speaker 1: the Los Angeles Police Department was outgunned, out armed, but

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Speaker 1: definitely not outnumbered. They outnumbered the robbers, but they were

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Speaker 1: still getting pinned down and they were having no luck

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Speaker 1: with anything. Well, I don't want to give too much away.

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Speaker 1: Let's just start at the beginning, because we're talking about

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Speaker 1: two dudes, a twenty six year old This is back

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Speaker 1: in ninety seven named Larry Eugene Phillips Junior, and there

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Speaker 1: was a thirty year old who he was friends with

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Speaker 1: named Emil Mattiseranu. And even though Emil was older, Larry

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Speaker 1: was the one who called the shots. He was roundly

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Speaker 1: described by family members says manipulative, controlling, and he had

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Speaker 1: Emil under his thumb a meal was described by his

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Speaker 1: family members later as a follower. So even though he

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Speaker 1: was a little older, he listened to what Emil told

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Speaker 1: them to do, not just in their partnership as like criminals,

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Speaker 1: but in life too. I read somewhere that Emil got

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Speaker 1: married because Larry told him he should and that he

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Speaker 1: shouldn't marry an American girl. So Eiel went to Romania

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Speaker 1: and got himself a Romanian bribe because he was a

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Speaker 1: Romanian immigrant. That level of control is apparently what they

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Speaker 1: were engaged in.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, totally previous to their meeting they met each other.

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Speaker 4: They were bodybuilders, not professionally but just bodybuilding guys at

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Speaker 4: Gold's Gym and Venice Beach in nineteen eighty nine, and

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Speaker 4: just prior to this is when Phillips started. His life

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Speaker 4: of crime started kind of small. I guess, like most criminals,

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Speaker 4: just a heist of four hundred dollars from a seer's

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Speaker 4: othern California, and then graduated to burglary, real estate fraud

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Speaker 4: stuff like that. Apparently was sort of enamored of like

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Speaker 4: Scarface and ultimately the movie Heat.

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Speaker 3: So if this shootout.

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Speaker 4: Sounds familiar, it sounds a lot like the one from Heat,

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Speaker 4: it's because they seem to have been inspired by that movie,

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Speaker 4: for sure, but love not only just the gangsters and movies,

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Speaker 4: but also the white collar criminals. He would apparently like

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Speaker 4: park in front of rich people's houses and just sort

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Speaker 4: of fantasize about that life and wanted money like he

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Speaker 4: you know, in the end, this whole thing was about

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Speaker 4: money and like the thrill of it all largely because

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Speaker 4: of Phillips.

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Speaker 1: Right for sure, and Phillips was he kind of had

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Speaker 1: the odds stacked against him in succeeding in a normal

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Speaker 1: nine to five life because of the family he was

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Speaker 1: born into. His father, Larry Eugene Phillips, Sr. Who would

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Speaker 1: later speak about his son in glowing terms after this.

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Speaker 1: He was actually an escape beef from a prison in

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Speaker 1: Colorado when Larry Junior was born, so Larry Junior was

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Speaker 1: born into an alias. His last name was False Orful.

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Speaker 1: That's how he was born, and on his sixth birthday,

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Speaker 1: apparently the FBI came in with guns drawn to capture

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Speaker 1: his dad, and that helped set up what was referred

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Speaker 1: to as basically a lifelong hatred of the police and

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Speaker 1: by extension, the kind of normal society the police were

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Speaker 1: charged with defending.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: As for Mattisonano, he was a Romanian immigrant. Came into

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Speaker 4: the country when he was about eleven and nineteen seventy seven,

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Speaker 4: was naturalized in eighty eight. And his mom, we'll talk

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Speaker 4: about her a little bit. Her name was Valerie Nicolesque.

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Speaker 1: I think that definitely gets it across sure Nicolescue.

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Speaker 4: She says that he was bullied when he was a kid.

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Speaker 4: He became a computer and video game nerd. He ended

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Speaker 4: up going to Deride Institute of Technology when he was

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Speaker 4: nineteen and I'm sorry he got his degree when he

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Speaker 4: was nineteen. But his neighbors also said things like this

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Speaker 4: guy was bad news. He threatened one of the neighbors

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Speaker 4: with a chainsaw because their dog came on his property

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Speaker 4: and their family also had another sort of disturbing secret, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they had a family business. Emil and his mom,

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Speaker 1: Valerie had basically a residential care center out of their

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Speaker 1: home for people with disabilities, usually cognitive disabilities or mental

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Speaker 1: health issues. And they were set up as a legitimate

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Speaker 1: care institute. No that's not the word, I guess a

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Speaker 1: care home.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The problem is is they were not a good care

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Speaker 1: home by pretty much any standard. Caught multiple times doing

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Speaker 1: or they were accused multiple times of mistreating the people.

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Speaker 1: One of their residents was left in the hospital just

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Speaker 1: kind of abandoned ditch there. There was supposedly some allegations

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Speaker 1: that Emil had been abusive toward at least one of

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Speaker 1: the patients there, and he was not allowed to come

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Speaker 1: back into the house anymore, which is a problem because

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Speaker 1: this is the family house. And eventually they got shut

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Speaker 1: down for fire codes and later on we'll see it

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Speaker 1: even got worse after the heist happened and all the

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Speaker 1: news came out and the police and the press started

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Speaker 1: looking into that family and their family business. Just suffice

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Speaker 1: to say, like, his mom doesn't appear to have been

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Speaker 1: a very good person herself, just based on the allegations

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Speaker 1: of how she treated the people who were under her care.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it was pretty just I mean, this is one

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Speaker 4: of the more disturbing parts of this whole story actually,

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Speaker 4: and it's kind of a sidebar, which is after the

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Speaker 4: shoot out, they found a they searched her like a

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Speaker 4: commercial building that she owned in Pasadena and found a

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Speaker 4: forty four year old mentally disabled woman locked in a

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Speaker 4: room with no windows, with no food or water. And

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Speaker 4: then later it turns out that she was charged for

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Speaker 4: that initially, which was I mean, I guess just sort

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Speaker 4: of like a neglect charge.

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Speaker 3: She was sentenced to ten months.

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Speaker 4: But then later in two thousand and two, I found

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Speaker 4: an article in the La Times where because I was like,

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Speaker 4: why would she do this? It was a social security fraud.

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Speaker 4: She was collecting checks in her name and her and

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Speaker 4: this other woman later on she you know, it was

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Speaker 4: basically welfare and social security fraud. So she got pinched

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Speaker 4: for that in two thousand and two.

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Speaker 1: And if you read kind of some of the contemporary

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Speaker 1: articles from nineteen ninety seven right after the heist, she's

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Speaker 1: kind of portrayed by the press as like the thing

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Speaker 1: she says about herself or her background, the press don't

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Speaker 1: really take on face value. Yeah, like she's she said

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Speaker 1: that she was an opera singer from the state opera

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Speaker 1: in Romania who defected in nineteen seventy seven. And they

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Speaker 1: use the words like claim and when somebody's described as

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Speaker 1: claiming something about their own personal history, that's a signal

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Speaker 1: from the press that this is probably not a trustworthy person.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely.

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Speaker 4: She would also say after this whole shootout went down

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Speaker 4: with her son that she was like, he was depressed,

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Speaker 4: his wife had left him and taken his kid, and

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Speaker 4: I basically think this was a suicide mission for him.

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Speaker 3: So whether or not that was true, who knows. That's

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Speaker 3: what she claimed, right.

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Speaker 1: So these are the guys who found each other in

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty nine at Gold's gym and became really good friends.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things, in addition to bodybuilding that

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Speaker 1: they had in common was a real pronounced love of guns. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and not just any guns, high powered to assault rifles

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Speaker 1: in particular. And apparently Larry Phillips had a line somewhere

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Speaker 1: on steel cased ammunition. He could get it from Russia,

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Speaker 1: highly illegal, but apparently people weren't paying attention. And I

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Speaker 1: saw there was this British National Geographic little hour long

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Speaker 1: documentary on this called situation critical, which reminded me of

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Speaker 1: that Seinfeld movie Prognosis Negative. But they said that he

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Speaker 1: managed to import rounds of this really illegal, like incredibly

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Speaker 1: powerful steel lined ammunition, by the thousands of rounds. So

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Speaker 1: not only did they have really high powered assault rifles,

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Speaker 1: they had immeasurably higher powered shells to put in those

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Speaker 1: assault rifles, which made them extremely dangerous people.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, and as we'll see, maybe we should take a

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Speaker 4: break here. These two guys were doing a lot of

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Speaker 4: really dangerous criming before that ninety seven shootout.

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Speaker 1: Let's take that break, all right.

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Speaker 4: All right, so before we broke, I hinted around that

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Speaker 4: these guys were criming around previous to the nineteen ninety

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Speaker 4: seven shootout where everything ended, and that is very much true.

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Speaker 4: In nineteen ninety three, they were pulled over in a

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Speaker 4: rental car in Glendale and cop said, all right, well,

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Speaker 4: let me take a look in the trunk, and they went, oh,

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Speaker 4: you've got two nine millimeter handguns, two forty five hand

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Speaker 4: guns to coalition, a cofts, six smoke grenades, two homemade bombs,

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Speaker 4: three machine guns, two bulletproof vests, one gas mask, six holsters, wigs,

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Speaker 4: ski masks, two police radio scanners to stop watch, and

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Speaker 4: close to three thousand rounds of AMMO, and they said,

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Speaker 4: we're just going to the shooting range man. And you know,

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Speaker 4: sometimes we like to wear wigs or ski masks, or

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Speaker 4: listen to what the cops are doing, or time each other.

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Speaker 1: We're big fans of the police.

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Speaker 4: Obviously that all is, you know, to an outsider obvious bs.

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Speaker 4: But shockingly, the DA said, you know, we don't have

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Speaker 4: enough evidence to convict them of conspiracy to commit robbery,

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Speaker 4: and they pled down to a misdemeanor weapons charge in

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Speaker 4: about four months in county jail.

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Speaker 1: Each It gets even worse than that. That was nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety three. Okay, they were not only led off with

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Speaker 1: basically a slap on the wrist. What they had in

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Speaker 1: their trunk was described by other people later on as

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Speaker 1: a bank robbery kit. That's everything you needed to rob

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Speaker 1: a bank right there, And it was so painfully obvious

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Speaker 1: that's what that was. That but they still got a

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Speaker 1: stick up note right, no, there wasn't anything like that.

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Speaker 1: They hadn't gotten to that point. But the craziest part

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Speaker 1: of this whole thing even crazier that they only got

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Speaker 1: four months for these weapons. The DA and the judge

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Speaker 1: agreed to give them their weapons back after they got

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Speaker 1: out of jail, so they were re armed, ostensibly so

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Speaker 1: that they could sell the weapons to pay for their

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Speaker 1: legal costs, but no one followed up to make sure

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Speaker 1: they did sell the weapons. They just gave them back

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Speaker 1: their assault rifles and their handguns and probably their ski masks,

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Speaker 1: everything they needed to go rob banks. And that's exactly

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Speaker 1: what they did with that stuff.

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Speaker 3: This was Los Angeles.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for goodness sakes, I know, it's crazy.

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Speaker 4: So later on, this was after the you know, the

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Speaker 4: final shootout that we're leading up to, but later on

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Speaker 4: there was obviously all kinds of investigations and stuff, and

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Speaker 4: they learned that these two guys were in fact what

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Speaker 4: were known as the High Incident Bandits, these two dudes

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Speaker 4: that robbed well, it was technically it was two incidences,

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Speaker 4: but three banks, because they hit two banks at once.

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Speaker 4: In ninety five, they robbed a well, not a bank,

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Speaker 4: but they robbed a Brinx truck in front of a

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Speaker 4: Bank of America in the valley and they killed a guy,

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Speaker 4: They killed the driver. They opened up fire on these dudes.

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Speaker 1: Without warning, without it. Put your hands and they just

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Speaker 1: came out of nowhere and just started firing on them.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, which will you know, we'll see as an

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Speaker 4: obvious precedent. And then in nineteen ninety six, they robbed

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Speaker 4: two Bank of Americas, one of which was the one

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Speaker 4: that they had previously robbed the armored carn from and

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Speaker 4: killed that guy. And you know, it was the same

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Speaker 4: type of deal. They had these automatic rifles, they were,

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Speaker 4: you know, screaming that they're going to kill you.

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Speaker 3: They had body armor.

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Speaker 4: Ski masks, sunglasses. They took their time as far as

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Speaker 4: bank robberies go, by being in these banks for six

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Speaker 4: minutes and eight minutes, that's very long, which is that's

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Speaker 4: a long time for a bank robbery. I tried to

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Speaker 4: get out of there in less than three.

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Speaker 1: Well yeah, that's you know, that's what everybody does.

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Speaker 4: That's our goal. But they made off. I mean they

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Speaker 4: these guys had a lot of money. They made off

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Speaker 4: with between one point three and one point seven million

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Speaker 4: bucks combined from this these two heists.

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Speaker 1: Let alone, then whatever they got from the Brinks robbery, oh.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely.

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Speaker 4: And they were you know, they were well known, they

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Speaker 4: were the high incidence bandits. The FBI was you know,

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Speaker 4: actively tracking them, and also had a theory that they're

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Speaker 4: not alone, They're part of like a larger crime ring

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Speaker 4: or terror string that's funding them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and like that's not only funding them with arms,

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Speaker 1: but the bank robberies are meant to fund some sort

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Speaker 1: of like right wing paramilitary group or terrorist organization or something.

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Speaker 1: That was the point. That was the premise they were

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Speaker 1: going on because these guys were so incredibly well armed.

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Speaker 1: And just for context too, one point seven million dollars

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Speaker 1: for two bank robberies is an eye popping amount of money. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's up there in like the top probably fifty bank

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Speaker 1: robberies in the United States history. Like, those are really

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Speaker 1: big hauls. I saw at the time. Back in nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety one, the average bank robbery in the United States

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Speaker 1: yielded the robbers about three thousand dollars robbing a bank.

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Speaker 1: The takes were usually so paltry that it wasn't worth

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Speaker 1: the bank's money to invest in other protections like screens

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Speaker 1: that go up really quick between the tellers and the

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Speaker 1: bank robbers. It wasn't worth them installing those in banks

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Speaker 1: because the robbers rarely got away with more than a

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Speaker 1: few thousand dollars. So that was a huge, huge score

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Speaker 1: for almost two mansion dollars between just two bank robberies

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Speaker 1: for these guys.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and I don't think murder usually occurs at those

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Speaker 4: bank robberies too.

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Speaker 1: Supposedly, I can't remember the number. I think it was

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Speaker 1: like sixteen people died in bank robberies over like I

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Speaker 1: think eighty five to ninety five or something like that,

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Speaker 1: and twelve of them were the bank robber. It was

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Speaker 1: a statistic somewhat like that. So yeah, yeah, and I

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Speaker 1: think eighty five percent of bank robberies get caught. It's

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Speaker 1: a really high risk, usually low reward crime. But if

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Speaker 1: you do it like these guys did, armed to the teeth.

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Speaker 1: And the other reason that their yields were so big,

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Speaker 1: they scouted out the banks and they knew when the

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Speaker 1: bank was going to get some big delivery of cash.

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Speaker 1: Usually it was a payday or something like that. That's

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Speaker 1: why their robberies paid off so well. They had done

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Speaker 1: their homework ahead of time.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's how they do it in the movies.

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Speaker 4: And apparently these guys were inspired by movies.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess everybody else in real life doesn't do

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Speaker 1: it like the movies.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so they were, you know, they were living kind

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Speaker 4: of high on the hog for a little while.

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Speaker 3: They had a lot of money.

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Speaker 4: Phillips himself, he was the one that really sort of idolized,

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Speaker 4: you know, being wealthy and all that stuff. He like

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Speaker 4: bought fancy cars, he bought rolexes. I think mattisonana rented

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Speaker 4: a big house for his family. So, you know, I

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Speaker 4: think looking at the timeline, one was in June of

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Speaker 4: ninety five, one was almost a year later, in ninety six, so,

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Speaker 4: and then this final one was in February ninety seven.

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Speaker 3: They weren't you know, they weren't doing this.

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Speaker 4: It's hard to say they were being smart about it

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Speaker 4: because they were so brazen, but it seems like they

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Speaker 4: were doing this as like, all right, well here's our

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Speaker 4: annual salary and then we'll go out and do it

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Speaker 4: again in about a year.

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Speaker 1: Right. Yeah, No, they were. It was like their new

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Speaker 1: job and their new hobby and their new life, I

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Speaker 1: guess from what I understand. Right, So, on the day

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Speaker 1: of the robbery, their third heist, February twenty ath, nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety seven, a Friday, and since it's the end of

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Speaker 1: the mon month, a payday they had targeted a Bank

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Speaker 1: of America. It wasn't one they had hit before, but

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Speaker 1: for some.

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Speaker 3: Reason hated Bank of America.

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Speaker 1: They really and I kind of get why, but being

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Speaker 1: a former Bank of America account holder myself. But they

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Speaker 1: they hit one in North Hollywood. It was on Laurel

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Speaker 1: Canyon Boulevard. Are you familiar with this area? Oh?

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Speaker 3: Of course?

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Speaker 1: Okay, so you knew. Were you in LA at the time? No?

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Speaker 3: I didn't.

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Speaker 4: Oh wow, this is kind of right before that though.

359
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Speaker 4: I didn't move to LA until two thousand, okay, yeah.

360
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Speaker 4: And North Hollywood just for references, you know, Hollywood Central

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Speaker 4: Hollywood was kind of right in the middle of sort

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Speaker 4: of central LA. And then just over the mountains as

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Speaker 4: you go into the valley, that's where North Hollywood is.

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Speaker 1: Right and that's where Hank, the Cheshnian gangster in the

365
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Speaker 1: HBO show Berry is from. That's why they call him

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Speaker 1: NoHo Hank.

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Speaker 3: I need to do, Barry you do.

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Speaker 1: It's one of those shows that gets insanely off the

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Speaker 1: rails and yet they still manage to make it work.

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Speaker 1: It's really good, you know.

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Speaker 4: I watched a little bit of it years ago when

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Speaker 4: it first started and just got distracted and never got

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Speaker 4: back around to it. But I'd love everyone in that show.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you should. You should give it another shot, all.

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Speaker 3: Right, I'll bury up soon.

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Speaker 1: It's weird though, it's it's deceptively gritty. It's a comedy

377
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Speaker 1: through and through, and it's just bizarre and all that.

378
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Speaker 1: But there's if you really kind of get into, like

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Speaker 1: the the violence, the meat of it, it's it's pretty hardcore.

380
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Speaker 1: It's a crazy show. It's hard to pin down, but.

381
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Speaker 3: It's worth seeing, all right, I'll follow up.

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Speaker 1: So Friday, February twenty eighth, nineteen ninety seven, Larry Phillips

383
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Speaker 1: and Emil Mattiserano walk into a Bank of America and

384
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Speaker 1: they are covered head to toe and technical gear ski masks.

385
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Speaker 1: It turns out Larry Phillips is covered from neck to

386
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Speaker 1: ankle in body armor.

387
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Speaker 3: Yeah.

388
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Speaker 1: That he helped. He apparently so did himself and it

389
00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:12,840
Speaker 1: was really effective. Yah. Emil matesan who has a trauma

390
00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:18,320
Speaker 1: plate basically like a bulletproof plate covering his chest and

391
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Speaker 1: his vital organs. And they walk in and apparently the

392
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Speaker 1: first thing they did was started firing into the air

393
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Speaker 1: from their AK forty sevens, and you would think that

394
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Speaker 1: that would capture the attention of the police, But that's

395
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Speaker 1: a moot point, because the police watched them walk into

396
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Speaker 1: the bank from the first moment this started.

397
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Speaker 4: Boy, I mean, you can do all the planning in

398
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Speaker 4: the world as a bank robber, but you can never

399
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Speaker 4: count or discount bad luck for them good luck for

400
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Speaker 4: everyone else. Sure, but literally there was a police cruiser

401
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:57,040
Speaker 4: that were like sitting there and watched two guys walk

402
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Speaker 4: into this bank armed like this yea, And I'm sure

403
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:04,399
Speaker 4: they were like, what the oo and immediately called this

404
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:08,320
Speaker 4: is at nine seventeen And they immediately called for backup obviously,

405
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,359
Speaker 4: and I think once they saw and heard the shots

406
00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:14,119
Speaker 4: and everything, they all immediately knew that these were the

407
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Speaker 4: high incident bandits.

408
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,040
Speaker 1: Yes, And for those fans of Snoop Dogg and Doctor

409
00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:21,439
Speaker 1: Dre and Ice Cube and NWA, you're well aware that

410
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:23,680
Speaker 1: what the police called in was a two to eleven

411
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Speaker 1: an armed robbery in progress.

412
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Speaker 3: That's good.

413
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Speaker 1: So one of the things, a little detail that kind

414
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:37,240
Speaker 1: of emerged later on, apparently Larry Phillips and Emal were

415
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Speaker 1: not drug users whatsoever in any way, shape or form,

416
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:43,840
Speaker 1: but apparently they had taken phena barbital just before the

417
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:47,119
Speaker 1: bank robbery to basically calm their nerves. They were the

418
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Speaker 1: kind of bank robbers that you see in the movies

419
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Speaker 1: but that don't actually exist in real life. These guys

420
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Speaker 1: existed in real life. They would knock down old ladies

421
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Speaker 1: and put guns in their faces. They would tell moms

422
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Speaker 1: that if they didn't shut their kids up, they were

423
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,359
Speaker 1: going to kill their kids. They fired wildly into the air,

424
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:07,360
Speaker 1: they fired wildly into the bank. They just shot everything

425
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 1: up everywhere. They were really abusive, They were really tough,

426
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:15,679
Speaker 1: They were really scary, and they were also really on

427
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,679
Speaker 1: point as far as like knowing where the money is,

428
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 1: knowing who would have access to the money, and just

429
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,080
Speaker 1: making this whole thing work. They had also figured out

430
00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:27,200
Speaker 1: that they had about eight minutes before the average response time.

431
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,919
Speaker 1: They hadn't noticed the cops watching them walk in, and

432
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 1: so they had timer stopwatches on during this whole eight

433
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Speaker 1: minute robbery.

434
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:37,199
Speaker 4: Yeah, which is what they had in the trunk when

435
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:38,919
Speaker 4: the cops pulled them over four years earlier.

436
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, the stopwatch. Yeah.

437
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:43,400
Speaker 4: So yeah, I mean they had this thing planned out,

438
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:47,200
Speaker 4: but they also didn't know certain things, like they asked

439
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:51,520
Speaker 4: the bank manager to open up the ATMs, and he's like,

440
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 4: I can't open the ATMs, Like I literally can't do that.

441
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 4: So he tried to shoot them open, which did nothing

442
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 4: to get into the atm, but of course it you know,

443
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,920
Speaker 4: bullets ricochet everywhere and injured the bank manager. They also,

444
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,560
Speaker 4: you know, would shoot I think one of them, Phillips,

445
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:12,719
Speaker 4: wasn't it, who literally shot into a safe and like

446
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:15,120
Speaker 4: shot up a lot of the money that they could

447
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:16,400
Speaker 4: have gotten, yeah, ruining that.

448
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 1: Out of anger, they learned that the Brinks truck that

449
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 1: was supposed to be delivering hundreds and hundreds about three

450
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:26,200
Speaker 1: quarters of a million dollars by their estimate, was running

451
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,480
Speaker 1: late or had been rescheduled to throw off bank robberies,

452
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,399
Speaker 1: and out of anger, Emial just shot into a safe

453
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,239
Speaker 1: and basically just ruined a bunch of cash that they

454
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 1: could have taken.

455
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 3: Yeah.

456
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 4: There was also a cell phone on the scene, which

457
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,440
Speaker 4: is not the most common thing in nineteen ninety seven,

458
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 4: for sure, but it was la and they locked a

459
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 4: bunch of the They were about, you know, thirty bystanders

460
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 4: or you know, just people doing bank business. They separated

461
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 4: them out from the tellers and put them in a

462
00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 4: vault and shut the door and one of the I

463
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:02,359
Speaker 4: believe one of the women inside had a cell phone,

464
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:04,879
Speaker 4: and I'm not sure how much it help, but she

465
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,919
Speaker 4: was at least able to be in touch with the cops,

466
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 4: sort of describing what she was hearing while all this

467
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:11,200
Speaker 4: is going on.

468
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,680
Speaker 1: Right, this is at a time before people knew what

469
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 1: lol meant, and one of the cops she was texting

470
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 1: with was like, LOL meaning lots of love. But she

471
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 1: didn't take it that way.

472
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:27,200
Speaker 3: Lots of love. I thought it was laugh out loud.

473
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 1: Right, that's what it means. The cop didn't know that.

474
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 1: He thought he was saying like, hang in there, I.

475
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 3: Gotcha, I got cha, Okay, I miss I'm a little sick.

476
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 1: Today, that's all right. I stole that joke from family guy.

477
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:41,479
Speaker 4: Anyway, In the end, though, they did get, you know,

478
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 4: a pretty good take. They got about three hundred thousand

479
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 4: dollars worth of cash, and then I guess we should

480
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 4: probably take a break here. But then they exited the

481
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 4: bank and all h e double hockey sticks broke loose.

482
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 1: Okay, Chuck, it's about nine to twenty five. I believe

483
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,359
Speaker 1: eight minutes has passed. The timers going off on their

484
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:38,159
Speaker 1: stopwatches and Emil Mataseranu and Larry Phillips are now planning

485
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 1: on leaving the bank. They have a duffel bag with

486
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 1: about three hundred grand in cash, and supposedly right when

487
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:46,399
Speaker 1: they walk out the door, the die packs in the

488
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 1: bag go off and completely ruin the cash. So the

489
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 1: cast that they thought was going to be there wasn't there.

490
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,400
Speaker 1: The cast that they did get was now completely ruined

491
00:27:55,440 --> 00:28:00,199
Speaker 1: forever because the die packs. And they come out and

492
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,880
Speaker 1: realize that the cops have them surrounded, that this eight

493
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 1: minute response time thing doesn't count when the cops watch

494
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 1: you walk into the bank with ski masks in AK

495
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 1: forty sevens.

496
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like, what kind of surrounded are we talking about here?

497
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 1: We're talking about surrounded on every side with police helicopters

498
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 1: hovering overhead. That's what they walked out of the bank into.

499
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, in the end, there would be more than three

500
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,879
Speaker 4: hundred cops from five different agencies that were engaged in

501
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 4: the shootout.

502
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 3: So three hundred EGITST two. That gives you a little.

503
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 4: Insight into just how much more heavily armed these guys were.

504
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 4: That it lasted this long, But they walked out to

505
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 4: that scene and immediately turned North Hollywood into a war zone.

506
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 4: I've watched a lot of video this stuff, and this

507
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,959
Speaker 4: is one of the remarkable things is a lot of

508
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 4: this stuff is on video. You know, LA is notorious

509
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 4: for you know, anytime something like this is happening, there's

510
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 4: six helicopters, news helicopters overhead, like within minutes, just kind

511
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 4: of live streaming, or I guess you wouldn't have called it

512
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 4: live streaming.

513
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 3: Then what would you just say?

514
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 5: Broadcasting live broadcasting there you go, oh man, it's been

515
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 5: so long, you're so twenties, I am so yeah, live

516
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 5: broadcasting this thing from above. So you can watch a

517
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 5: lot of this take place, which is horrifying. But again,

518
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 5: if you've seen enough movies, you're like, yeah, it looks

519
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,040
Speaker 5: like a lot of movies I've seen. But a lot

520
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 5: of the interviews that you know since then that have

521
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 5: happened with cops that were there and taking place basically

522
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,960
Speaker 5: said like these guys just came out and started shooting

523
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 5: at everything that moved, citizens, cars, buildings, police cars at

524
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 5: the times at the time didn't have kevlar siding in

525
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 5: their doors and stuff, so like hiding inside a police

526
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 5: car was no good. Hiding behind a police car was

527
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 5: better because the bullet going all the way through it

528
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 5: at least is going to you know, ricochet around and

529
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,239
Speaker 5: probably not go like straight into you. But you know,

530
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:00,160
Speaker 5: they were it was all of a sudden, it was

531
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 5: like Vietnam out there in North Hollywood.

532
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 1: So here's the thing. When the cops had them surrounded

533
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 1: and were waiting for them to come out. Number one

534
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 1: in the cops mind, they had no idea if the

535
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 1: whole place inside had just been massacred, because most robberts

536
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 1: don't walk in and start shooting into the air. Again,

537
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 1: that's movie stuff that these guys were influenced by. So

538
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 1: they heard like I think fifty rounds of automatic rifle

539
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 1: fire in the bank while they were waiting for these

540
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 1: guys to come out, and they didn't know if everyone

541
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 1: inside was just completely killed. That was number one. But

542
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 1: number two the cops also presumed, based on experience and history,

543
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 1: that when these guys came out and saw they were

544
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 1: surrounded not just by cops and cop cars but also helicopters,

545
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 1: that they would just you know, put their guns down,

546
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 1: put their hands up. So they were surprised at the

547
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 1: response that these two guys took on just even just

548
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 1: this first initial wave of dozens of cops, and then

549
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 1: they were further surprised when the guy's bullets started going

550
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 1: right through any kevlar vest, started going right through the

551
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 1: police cars, started going through buildings, through concrete buildings. There

552
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 1: was a concrete locksmith like kind of like a photo

553
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 1: mat in the parking lot that they were taking shelter behind.

554
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 1: The bullets were going through them. This was it just

555
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 1: suddenly turned completely one hundred and eighty degrees from their expectations.

556
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 1: And then even worse than that, they were finding their

557
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 1: own guns were having basically just pinging. The bullets were

558
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 1: pinging off of these guys because they were wearing so

559
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 1: much body armor. So this is about the moment almost

560
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 1: immediately out of the gate when the cops were like,

561
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 1: this is nothing like anything we've ever experienced before, and

562
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 1: we are out gunned right now.

563
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, and this sounds unbelievable, but it's true. It was

564
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 4: so bad right away that the cops realized that and said,

565
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 4: if there's any available units, go to the gun store

566
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 4: down the street and get everything you can. Like they

567
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 4: literally went to a gun store to re arm or

568
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 4: you know, I guess what would you call it.

569
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 3: When your armament. Yeah, I guess.

570
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 4: So they leveled up on their guns and they did

571
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:13,479
Speaker 4: get guns. Apparently, according to like recovered ammunition stuff, they

572
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 4: didn't actually end up using those in the firefight because

573
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 4: I guess, you know, the whole thing didn't last that long,

574
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 4: and I'm sure it took a while to you know,

575
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 4: talk the store owner and giving up these guns and

576
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 4: getting the matching ammunition and all that. But they sent

577
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 4: for backup for themselves by going to a gun store,

578
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 4: which is just crazy to think about. And they were like,

579
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 4: we need the SWAT team. This is we're police cruiser guys,

580
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 4: and that we have revolvers or nine millimeters and this

581
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 4: ain't happening.

582
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 3: Swat team is downtown.

583
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 4: Took them about eighteen minutes to get there, and they

584
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 4: got there though. They finally showed up, and apparently it

585
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 4: was such a quick sort of let's get their quick

586
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 4: thing that one of the SWAT officers was about to

587
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 4: go on a jog and he shows up in like

588
00:32:57,760 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 4: jogging shorts.

589
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you watched like the footage of the of

590
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 1: them taking Mitosurano, he's the first one to them and

591
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 1: it's kind of silly looking to be honest. Yeah, but

592
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: so yeah, this first wave of cops that they encountered,

593
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 1: I don't know how many cruisers there were, but let's

594
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 1: say there's probably six and maybe a dozen or so cops.

595
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 1: There were also two bystanders who got caught in the crossfire,

596
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 1: both of whom ended up getting shot by those ricochet

597
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 1: bullets going through cop cars that they were hiding behind.

598
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 1: Cops were getting shot like through their kevlar vests. I

599
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 1: think a number of cops were injured, and even worse,

600
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 1: they were pinned down. They were in what's called the

601
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 1: kill zone. Like these guys were very easily able to

602
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 1: shoot any of these people who were fairly close to them,

603
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 1: and so these these cops had to basically retreat or

604
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 1: be pinned down. And some of them were pinned down

605
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 1: because they were shot. So if you if you kind

606
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:56,719
Speaker 1: of watch some of the footage or you you know,

607
00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:00,080
Speaker 1: read about it, that kind of gets left out. That

608
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 1: was something I thought that the Situation Critical documentary really

609
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 1: kind of drove home, like there were some people who

610
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 1: were in grave, grave danger in the first like ten

611
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 1: fifteen minutes of this firefight before backup arrived. And I

612
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 1: also saw it described that the Phillips in Mattisaranu at

613
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:24,880
Speaker 1: one point, especially when they were engaged with that first

614
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 1: wave of cops who were totally unprepared and unequipped to

615
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 1: deal with them, that they could have made a getaway,

616
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,240
Speaker 1: and they seemed to have decided that they were wanted

617
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 1: to stay and fight instead.

618
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:43,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's unusual, and I'm curious about the wisdom of that.

619
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 4: Like if they had left, if these guys just would

620
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 4: have went and got in their car and tried to

621
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:48,479
Speaker 4: get out.

622
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 1: Of there, I don't know. Who knows. I mean, I

623
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:52,239
Speaker 1: don't know the fact that they had a helicopter on

624
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 1: them would have made it pretty difficult, but who knows.

625
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 1: Could have been way worse. It could have been shorter.

626
00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 1: Who knows what could have happened. But yeah, I think

627
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 1: the point was that they, like bank robbers, don't try

628
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:05,359
Speaker 1: to stick around when they're given the option to try

629
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:06,359
Speaker 1: to make a run for it.

630
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 4: And these guys, Yeah, I'm not gonna Monday Morning quarterback

631
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 4: this thing years later in my podcast Booth because I

632
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 4: wasn't the one, you know, getting shot at on the street.

633
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 4: So there was one citizen hero among this crowd, which

634
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:26,400
Speaker 4: was a dentist doctor Jorge Montes, had an office across

635
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 4: the street, and two cops that were injured, like crawled

636
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:33,280
Speaker 4: up the stairs to his office and he it sounds

637
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 4: like he had saved at least one of their lives.

638
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,160
Speaker 4: He treated them immediately, and one of the cops had

639
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 4: shrapnel in his ankle, and Montes was smart enough to

640
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 4: be like, we should leave that in there, Like, I'll

641
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:48,319
Speaker 4: treat you, but I'm not taking that out because it

642
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 4: could get worse. And that officer later said that he

643
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:52,839
Speaker 4: probably saved my life because I probably would have led out.

644
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:58,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's pretty great. So a few minutes before ten,

645
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 1: this firefight has been going going on for thirty plus minutes. Now, okay,

646
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 1: Phillips and Mataseranu decide that this is a really fateful

647
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 1: decision and no one has any idea why, probably will

648
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 1: never know why. But Mataseranu gets in their white Chevy Celebrity,

649
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 1: the ugliest getaway car ever. Oh there's one other thing

650
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 1: about that white Chevy Celebrity. They had it backed up

651
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 1: to the bank in a parking space, and so when

652
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,760
Speaker 1: they came out and they were shooting at the cops

653
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 1: and everybody that moved for thirty minutes with their assault weapons.

654
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:35,960
Speaker 1: Whenever their assault rifle would like run out of ammo

655
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 1: or jam or something, they just throw it down, go

656
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 1: to the trunk of the car and come back with

657
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:43,920
Speaker 1: a brand new assault rifle. And they had like drums,

658
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 1: like one hundred round drums as clips, So they were

659
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 1: really doing a lot of damage. And at some point

660
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:54,280
Speaker 1: they decided let's head out. Matisranu gets in the Chevy

661
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 1: Celebrity and rather than get in with him, Larry Phillips

662
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 1: decides to walk alongside, just firing at everybody while Matti

663
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:08,240
Speaker 1: Serranu slowly drives with him. And then the really faithful

664
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,719
Speaker 1: decision is made where they decide to split up, and

665
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:15,440
Speaker 1: Larry Phillips peels off for Mattiseranu and starts walking down

666
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 1: the sidewalk of a street, a side street that a

667
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,240
Speaker 1: residential street to a residential area.

668
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's you know, I think I read a

669
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:26,920
Speaker 4: lot about this too. I think he might have thought

670
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 4: he was providing some initial cover and the whole split

671
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 4: up thing is just, you know, judging from the movies,

672
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:36,279
Speaker 4: I think sometimes that's just what they decide to do, like,

673
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 4: you know, instead of concentrating everything on us.

674
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 3: If we split up. That'll that'll split the you know,

675
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 3: the burden or whatever.

676
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I get that. I also, based on

677
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:50,319
Speaker 1: how quickly things happened after that, it also makes me

678
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:52,279
Speaker 1: wonder if he was like, I'm just gonna go take

679
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 1: my last stand.

680
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,800
Speaker 4: Well maybe, I mean, who knows. We're never gonna know, basically,

681
00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 4: and you'll soon find out why. So in the end,

682
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:04,360
Speaker 4: and Phillips was shot eleven times. He's walking down this

683
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 4: side street.

684
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 1: He's still walking after he's some of these most of

685
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 1: these shots.

686
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:10,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's walking down the side street.

687
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 4: He's firing at everything he can, and he gets just

688
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:16,760
Speaker 4: like in the movies, like an old Western or something,

689
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 4: a cop shoots his hand, like shoots the gun out

690
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,439
Speaker 4: of his hand by shooting his hand, he reaches down,

691
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:25,839
Speaker 4: picks it up, puts it under his chin, and in

692
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 4: an attempt to kill himself and pulls the trigger. And

693
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:32,879
Speaker 4: you know, it was sort of a bang bang thing.

694
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 4: No one sure which was the kill shot, but sort

695
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,640
Speaker 4: of right along that time at either right when it

696
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 4: happened or right after he fell, a cop had shot

697
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 4: him true romance style, through the side of his body

698
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 4: where there was no protection, no protective vest because that

699
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 4: stuff is usually like it's on your back, it's on

700
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 4: your chest, but kind of not through the side, and

701
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,399
Speaker 4: he severed his spine and he was dead immediately from

702
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 4: one of the two wounds.

703
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:04,240
Speaker 1: So Larry Phillips is now dead one way or another,

704
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 1: either by his own hand or by the cops shot. Uh.

705
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 1: And that is not the end of things, because Mattisranu

706
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 1: is still on the move. He's in his White Celebrity

707
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:19,320
Speaker 1: moving down the street past where Phillips has just died.

708
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:25,760
Speaker 1: And here's what's crazy, because, as we'll see, the LAPD

709
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 1: is very much feted after this for having saved North Hollywood,

710
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 1: taken on these guys who outgunned them. But there's a

711
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,760
Speaker 1: really critical point that I think people just move right past.

712
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 1: When they were moving up Archwood, this residential street, it

713
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:46,360
Speaker 1: was not closed off, so people were driving past Emil

714
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:50,680
Speaker 1: Madiseranu within feet, like a handful of feet of this guy,

715
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:52,600
Speaker 1: and they were confused, they didn't know what was going on.

716
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 1: And he's strapped with like this ak driving the White Celebrity,

717
00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:59,280
Speaker 1: which now has this tire shot out, looking for another car,

718
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 1: and at he's three or four pass him before he

719
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:05,880
Speaker 1: finally stops and picked one and start shooting at the car.

720
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 1: And that was a huge, huge failure on the LAPD's

721
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:12,240
Speaker 1: part because those guys could have gone anywhere on Archwood

722
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:14,760
Speaker 1: Street and started taking hostages easily.

723
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 3: What was the failure that they didn't close the street off?

724
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:19,719
Speaker 1: Like, I don't understand how you can get it.

725
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 3: They had time bank robbery.

726
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 1: You could close it off somewhere back there there was

727
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:28,400
Speaker 1: through traffic still coming down Archwood, like right by the bank.

728
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:31,200
Speaker 1: If you watch it, it's crazy that that's not now.

729
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:33,359
Speaker 4: I just don't I don't know, man, I think that's

730
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:35,439
Speaker 4: also Monday morning quarterbacking. I don't know if they could

731
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 4: have they were in the middle of a shootout. I

732
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:38,759
Speaker 4: just I don't know.

733
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 1: I mean, the whole LAPD was focused on this shootout.

734
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 1: I feel like they could have shut the street down.

735
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:48,080
Speaker 4: It's just crazy to me, all right, agree to disagree, Okay?

736
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 4: At any rate, he's firing at cars. He gets in

737
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 4: this guy's jeep pickup truck, and the guy got injured.

738
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:56,160
Speaker 3: He was fine.

739
00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:58,080
Speaker 4: He ran out of there and you know, got away

740
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 4: at least, and he starts he still thinks he can

741
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:03,640
Speaker 4: get out of there. I guess he's transferring weapons from

742
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 4: that chevy to the truck, and three swat guys drive

743
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 4: over there. He comes out again, and all of a

744
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:14,480
Speaker 4: sudden there's another shootout on the street, movie style, with

745
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 4: both of them kind of crouched behind these cars, and

746
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:22,280
Speaker 4: the cops do a very smart thing, which is shoot

747
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,720
Speaker 4: underneath the car, at his feet, at his legs, whatever

748
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:27,840
Speaker 4: they can hit, and they end up hitting him twenty

749
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:29,160
Speaker 4: eight times and dropped him.

750
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:31,800
Speaker 1: Yeah. Man, can you imagine taking twenty eight shots in

751
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:33,440
Speaker 1: your legs and feet?

752
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 3: I can't imagine one.

753
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 1: He put his hands up, he gave up, he surrendered

754
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 1: and was laying behind the celebrity. I think in the

755
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 1: end when they captured him, twelve officers had been injured,

756
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:53,000
Speaker 1: had been shot somewhere in pretty bad shape. Miraculously all survived.

757
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:56,760
Speaker 1: Eight bystanders have been injured. All of them survived. Everyone

758
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,279
Speaker 1: in the bank survived, and it turned out that the

759
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:02,760
Speaker 1: only two people people who didn't survive were Larry Phillips

760
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:06,719
Speaker 1: and Emil Mattiseranu, who ended up bleeding to death from

761
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 1: his injuries lying behind that chevy celebrity. Isn't that nuts yet, Chuck?

762
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 1: I think seventeen or eighteen hundred rounds were fired in

763
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:20,239
Speaker 1: this forty four minute firefight, and only two people died,

764
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:22,399
Speaker 1: the bank robbers.

765
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that became a matter of just sort of

766
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 4: further scrutiny because Matti Serrano, you know, he's laying there,

767
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:33,279
Speaker 4: he's bleeding, and he says, you know, why don't you

768
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 4: put a bullet through my head? And when the EMTs

769
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:38,359
Speaker 4: show up, the cops keep them away. They said, don't

770
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,880
Speaker 4: come over here. EMT has never examined him, and he

771
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 4: slowly bled out basically over the next hour and died.

772
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 4: They were, you know, heavily scrutinized. I think there was

773
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:52,800
Speaker 4: an attorney that ended up filing his suit on behalf

774
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 4: of the kids that said, hey, you know, regardless of

775
00:42:56,719 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 4: whether this guy was a bank robber, you can't you know,

776
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:03,240
Speaker 4: you still have an obligation to treat an injured human

777
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 4: on the ground as a cop. The cops response was like,

778
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:09,319
Speaker 4: we didn't know if there were other people involved, if

779
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 4: they were around, if they had a sniper, if they

780
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:14,000
Speaker 4: had explosives on their body. We didn't want to put

781
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:17,880
Speaker 4: those EMTs in danger. And in the end they dropped.

782
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:18,359
Speaker 3: I'm sorry.

783
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:21,880
Speaker 4: It was a deadlock jury at first, so it was

784
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:25,280
Speaker 4: a mistrial, and then they decided not to go further

785
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:29,919
Speaker 4: with another case because they might be countersued for malicious prosecution.

786
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 1: Well put, did you read the La Times article on that.

787
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, they really went to town putting this thing together,

788
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,279
Speaker 1: and no one came out looking okay, you know.

789
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 4: No, And it was you know, the LA PD has

790
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 4: always had a checkered reputation, so like, at first they

791
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:50,759
Speaker 4: were heroes because this was all over the news, and

792
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 4: this was, you know, a handful of years after Rodney

793
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:56,760
Speaker 4: King when they had probably an all time low opinion rating.

794
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 4: So they were like, look, look at the cops like

795
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:00,799
Speaker 4: protecting you and and putting.

796
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:01,399
Speaker 3: Their lives at risk.

797
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:04,200
Speaker 4: So it was good for PR at first, but then

798
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 4: this they let them bleed out in the street for

799
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:08,040
Speaker 4: an hour. I'm sure a lot of people were like

800
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:09,800
Speaker 4: good and a lot of people are like, yeah, you

801
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:10,520
Speaker 4: still can't do that.

802
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 1: Sure. So one of the other outcomes of this was

803
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 1: that it changed police forces across the United States forever.

804
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:25,080
Speaker 1: Like the police realized that they were not equipped for

805
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 1: something like this to happen in not only Los Angeles

806
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 1: but every other town in the United States, and in

807
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:35,720
Speaker 1: the Defense Spending Act I think of nineteen ninety seven,

808
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:41,000
Speaker 1: they passed a section called ten thirty three that said

809
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:45,400
Speaker 1: that the Department of Defense can sell any excess armory

810
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 1: weapons materiel to local police departments. Now that's a new thing,

811
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:55,280
Speaker 1: and it turned into what's been roundly considered the militarization

812
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 1: of the police. That's had all sorts of knock on

813
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:04,200
Speaker 1: effects include, according to multiple studies, an increase in death

814
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 1: during police shootings. And that's a big criticism of this

815
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:11,760
Speaker 1: that rather than people saying, let's reduce the public's access

816
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 1: to things like assault rifles that can kill tons of

817
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:19,239
Speaker 1: people and have firefights like this, instead the push has

818
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:24,759
Speaker 1: been to let's arm the cops equally to these criminals

819
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:28,279
Speaker 1: that can be armed to the teeth as well, to

820
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:30,880
Speaker 1: make it even which there's a logic to it, sure,

821
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:34,799
Speaker 1: but you could also reduce the public's access to those

822
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:37,400
Speaker 1: kinds of things as well, and that didn't really happen.

823
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 4: Well, one of the good things that came out of

824
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:45,839
Speaker 4: it was PTSD counseling for police officers. Was not such

825
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:47,400
Speaker 4: a big thing at the time, and after this it

826
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 4: became much more just sort of implemented across the country.

827
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:54,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is a good thing for sure. Anything else,

828
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:57,279
Speaker 1: I got nothing else. I think there's in Grand Theft

829
00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:00,200
Speaker 1: Auto five, one of the heists. The Palletto score is

830
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 1: based on this too. And there's a movie called forty

831
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 1: four Minutes that was made for TV on FX and

832
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:11,800
Speaker 1: it's terrible. I bet if you want to know anything

833
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:16,000
Speaker 1: else about the North Hollywood shootout, there's plenty to see

834
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:19,720
Speaker 1: and read about that. And while you're reading and seeing

835
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:22,480
Speaker 1: about the North Hollywood shootout, I think it's time for listener.

836
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 3: Man, I'm going to call this.

837
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 4: Follow up that I feel pretty bad about. We did

838
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 4: our podcast episode on Kenton Greua Grand Canyon River Adventure

839
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:39,959
Speaker 4: not too long ago, and we actually heard from his wife,

840
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:43,919
Speaker 4: Michelle Grua, who was She's not a stuff you should

841
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:46,440
Speaker 4: know listener, but someone told her about it. She listened

842
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:49,320
Speaker 4: and she wanted to clear up some things, and so

843
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 4: I'm going to read it. It's a little lenkdy, but

844
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:54,440
Speaker 4: I feel like we owe it toured. Hey, guys, I

845
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:56,480
Speaker 4: was surprised to be informed by a friend of your

846
00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:58,640
Speaker 4: podcast about my late husband Factor.

847
00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:02,000
Speaker 3: Yes, Archilllren and I all called him Factor. That was

848
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:02,759
Speaker 3: his preferred name.

849
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:05,279
Speaker 4: I appreciate that you obtained most of your information from

850
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 4: Kevin's book The Emerald Mile, which is for the most

851
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:09,840
Speaker 4: part accurate. There are some things that you said that

852
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:13,680
Speaker 4: are not accurate, and depictions of factor that I'd like

853
00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:16,320
Speaker 4: to set straight. These things are likely only important to

854
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:19,520
Speaker 4: me our children into his two brothers if they were

855
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:21,680
Speaker 4: to ever hear your podcast. I can tell that you

856
00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:24,839
Speaker 4: appreciated his adventurous spirit and the grandiosity of the things

857
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 4: he did, But I would gently suggest that you might

858
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 4: consider the feelings of those left behind with regard to

859
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:32,680
Speaker 4: the way you depict someone. He's not just some character

860
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:36,239
Speaker 4: and a really cool story. He's someone's husband, father, and

861
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:39,279
Speaker 4: brother who has sorely missed. I do not expect any

862
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 4: kind of retraction public retraction. I just wanted to let

863
00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 4: you know about the inaccuracy so you could have a

864
00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:51,360
Speaker 4: more clear picture of him. He was the most humble, gracious, generous, respectful, considerate,

865
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:53,800
Speaker 4: fear soul I've ever met, truly one of a kind

866
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:57,080
Speaker 4: and the greatest factor in my life. Regarding the description

867
00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:00,480
Speaker 4: of him really liking booze and hiking out to obtain

868
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:04,120
Speaker 4: extra liquor, the passengers on that particular commercial trip are

869
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:07,480
Speaker 4: the ones who requested extra booze, and given that there's

870
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:10,520
Speaker 4: no delivery into the canyon, he offered to hike out and.

871
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:12,279
Speaker 3: Procure a resupply for them.

872
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 4: Regarding the moccasins, he was a purist, and his reasoning

873
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:18,760
Speaker 4: was that the ancient Queblins who'd lived in the canyon

874
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:21,320
Speaker 4: had likely worn moccasins and he wanted to pay homage

875
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:25,040
Speaker 4: to them and not have any unfair modern advantage like

876
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:28,279
Speaker 4: hiking boots. He had scouted the route before, and the

877
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:34,279
Speaker 4: first through hike attempt he had placed food caches, cases, cases,

878
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 4: cashes for that hike, as well as doing so the

879
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 4: second time.

880
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:39,720
Speaker 3: As an insight into his character.

881
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:42,279
Speaker 4: He hiked back in to remove all of them after

882
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:43,480
Speaker 4: the hike, leaving no trace.

883
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:45,480
Speaker 3: You said that he was obsessed.

884
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 4: If you can say that about someone who smokes that

885
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 4: much pot, I feel like you may have missed a

886
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:53,080
Speaker 4: key element of Kenton's character and you're reading about him

887
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:55,920
Speaker 4: that he had a fierce intellect, an intense focus, and

888
00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:57,800
Speaker 4: once he got a hold of an idea, he ruminated

889
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 4: on it, turned it over and over in his mind

890
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 4: until he worked out all the details. Not consistent with

891
00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:05,960
Speaker 4: the sleepy image you conjure up when thinking about a

892
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:09,760
Speaker 4: typical stoner. It also bears mentioning that the original idea

893
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:13,800
Speaker 4: was Wally Wrists. Wally, Rudy and Kenton did the original

894
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:15,840
Speaker 4: speed one, but Wally was no longer working on the

895
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:18,800
Speaker 4: river in eighty three and thus not able to partake.

896
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 4: This time around, Kenton came up with the idea to

897
00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:24,840
Speaker 4: put a second set of oar locks on the boat,

898
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:27,920
Speaker 4: so you could have two rowing stations to tackle the

899
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:30,719
Speaker 4: flat water at the far west of the canyon. As

900
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:33,600
Speaker 4: far as the fine, the fine that was imposed as

901
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 4: reportedly five hundred dollars, but I have the cancel check

902
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:39,799
Speaker 4: to the Cocochino County Magistrate and the amount of two

903
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:43,360
Speaker 4: hundred and fifty dollars paid by Kenton, so your assertion

904
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:44,840
Speaker 4: that he couldn't afford.

905
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 3: It is not accurate.

906
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:49,520
Speaker 4: He never mentioned any imposition of community service to me

907
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 4: as well, and we are also quite sure of how

908
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:56,360
Speaker 4: he died. He died not due collision or impact, but

909
00:49:56,840 --> 00:50:01,799
Speaker 4: from the spontaneous a ordit dissection, not an aneurysm. He

910
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:04,759
Speaker 4: was found unresponsive on the trail by a hiker while

911
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:06,920
Speaker 4: the kids and I were home awaiting his return.

912
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:09,080
Speaker 3: He was not dead when the hiker found him.

913
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:13,280
Speaker 4: He was taking to the local hospital, where resuscitation efforts failed.

914
00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:16,839
Speaker 3: He wasn't laying in a peaceful position. The hiker said.

915
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 4: He was still astride as his bike, and it appeared

916
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:21,440
Speaker 4: that he had just tipped over. Indeed, he had a

917
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:23,600
Speaker 4: little cut over his ear where his sunglasses dug into

918
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 4: the side of his head when he landed. As a

919
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:29,160
Speaker 4: physician myself, I can tell you he was probably in

920
00:50:29,239 --> 00:50:32,680
Speaker 4: significant chest pain, and he died about two hundred yards

921
00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:35,400
Speaker 4: after passing through what would have been a busy trailhead

922
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:39,360
Speaker 4: parking area, So he was probably peddling like hell to

923
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:42,279
Speaker 4: get home just a couple of miles away, but dissected

924
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:45,239
Speaker 4: and lost consciousness less than a minute after passing through

925
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:47,839
Speaker 4: the lot. I only discovered it when he was two

926
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:50,560
Speaker 4: hours late getting home from the ride and called the

927
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:52,440
Speaker 4: hospital where I worked to see if they had any

928
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:55,239
Speaker 4: mountain bikers that had come in. They said yes, but

929
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:57,279
Speaker 4: they weren't able to identify him, and that was the

930
00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:00,600
Speaker 4: last moment of true peace that I had. I am

931
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 4: glad you found a story so compelling. I'm sure he's

932
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:05,480
Speaker 4: glad people are hearing of it and he doesn't have

933
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:09,640
Speaker 4: to do the telling himself, but accuracy is important. Please

934
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:14,839
Speaker 4: don't paint him as a caricature. Best Michelle Grua and

935
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:17,400
Speaker 4: I emailed her a very long email back, and I

936
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:20,000
Speaker 4: felt terrible about all this, and she was very sweet

937
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:23,319
Speaker 4: and much more graceful than I would have been in

938
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:23,920
Speaker 4: her position.

939
00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:26,040
Speaker 1: So yeah, I was gonna say, I mean, if you're

940
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 1: going to get taken to task by a living relative

941
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 1: of someone we profile, it's about as nice as it

942
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 1: can get, for sure.

943
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:35,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, So thank you Michelle for that, And just publicly,

944
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:38,080
Speaker 4: I'm sorry for anything we did that costs you any upset.

945
00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:41,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, agreed. It was definitely not our intent to create

946
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:43,759
Speaker 1: a caricature out of him. That's never our intent. So

947
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:47,040
Speaker 1: sorry that that happened inadvertently, And thank you for taking

948
00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:49,399
Speaker 1: the time to write all that, and thank you Chuck

949
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:52,680
Speaker 1: for reading all of it. Certainly, if you want to

950
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:55,359
Speaker 1: get in touch with us, like Michelle Grua did, you

951
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:58,360
Speaker 1: can use email as she did as well. Send it

952
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:03,840
Speaker 1: off to Stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com.

953
00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:07,399
Speaker 2: Radio Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.

954
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:11,080
Speaker 2: For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

955
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,