WEBVTT - Bloomberg Businessweek Weekend - October 4th, 2024 0:00:01.400 --> 0:00:05.760 This is Bloomberg business Week Inside from the reporters and 0:00:05.920 --> 0:00:09.520 editors who bring you America's most trusted business magazine, plus 0:00:09.560 --> 0:00:13.720 global business, finance and tech news. The Bloomberg Business Week 0:00:13.760 --> 0:00:18.680 Podcast with Carol Messer and Tim Stenebeck from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:19.680 --> 0:00:22.640 Hi, everyone, Welcome to the Bloomberg Business Week Weekend Podcast. 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:25.959 Well lots of big news this week. The conflict in 0:00:25.960 --> 0:00:29.360 the Middle East entered a dangerous new phase. Jd Vance 0:00:29.360 --> 0:00:31.640 and Tim Walls squared off in what is likely the 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:35.280 final debate of the twenty twenty four campaign. Dock workers 0:00:35.280 --> 0:00:38.080 along the US East and Gulf coasts went on strike 0:00:38.080 --> 0:00:40.760 for the first time since nineteen seventy seven, as the 0:00:40.840 --> 0:00:43.800 union took a hardline stance against automation found at other 0:00:43.840 --> 0:00:45.159 ports around the world. 0:00:45.440 --> 0:00:48.360 All topped off with the September jobs report on Friday 0:00:48.400 --> 0:00:51.000 that followed comments earlier in the week by fed share 0:00:51.120 --> 0:00:54.560 Jay Powell about a solid labor market but noting that 0:00:54.600 --> 0:00:57.480 conditions have quote clearly cooled over. 0:00:57.240 --> 0:00:57.920 The past year. 0:00:58.240 --> 0:01:00.720 Check out the latest on everything from the economy, to 0:01:00.720 --> 0:01:04.200 the presidential campaigns to geopolitics on the Bloomberg Terminal or 0:01:04.240 --> 0:01:05.520 at Bloomberg dot Com. 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:09.280 This hour we tackled geopolitics and the US political divide 0:01:09.280 --> 0:01:12.760 thanks to two new books. One gets into the psychological 0:01:12.840 --> 0:01:15.480 roots of tribalism and how the things that keep us 0:01:15.520 --> 0:01:19.040 apart can actually bring us closer together. The other book, 0:01:19.200 --> 0:01:22.360 Timely Considering the escalating tensions of the Middle East, takes 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:25.000 us back to nineteen twenty nine and Ghosts of a 0:01:25.040 --> 0:01:25.640 Holy War. 0:01:25.840 --> 0:01:27.679 Plus this week we got our own read on the 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:30.280 consumer when we caught up with Josh Weinstein, the CEO 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:32.760 of Carnival. All of that to come, we begin with 0:01:32.800 --> 0:01:35.319 the escalating conflict in the Middle East. This coming week 0:01:35.360 --> 0:01:38.840 marks the one year anniversary of Hamas's attack on Israel. 0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:42.240 Much has happened, including this past week Iran's ballistic missile 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:45.080 attack on Israel. As we recorded this, the world was 0:01:45.120 --> 0:01:48.920 awaiting a possible Israeli response against Iran. One conversation we 0:01:49.000 --> 0:01:51.440 had on the conflict took us back to nineteen twenty 0:01:51.520 --> 0:01:54.520 nine and came courtesy of your Denna Schwartz, an Award 0:01:54.560 --> 0:01:58.640 winning journalist and Emmy nominated producer her new book, Ghosts 0:01:58.720 --> 0:02:02.120 of a Holy War. Teen twenty nine massacre in Palestine 0:02:02.280 --> 0:02:05.720 that ignited the Arab Israeli conflict. 0:02:05.000 --> 0:02:08.120 The events we're seeing today in which there is already 0:02:08.160 --> 0:02:12.440 this broader war against Israel by Iran and its proxies 0:02:12.480 --> 0:02:15.800 in the region, really shows us that this is not 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:20.480 a conflict about land as it has been treated for decades. 0:02:20.600 --> 0:02:23.440 This is a holy war, as I argue in my book, 0:02:23.720 --> 0:02:25.960 and it needs to be looked at as such. And 0:02:26.320 --> 0:02:30.400 we see that very clearly now in which this war 0:02:30.520 --> 0:02:35.200 is not just between Israelis and Palestinians, it is between 0:02:35.440 --> 0:02:40.920 Iran and its proxies in Yemen, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq. For 0:02:41.000 --> 0:02:43.560 the last year, this didn't just start as you said, 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:46.840 you know, yesterday or last week. It's been going on 0:02:46.840 --> 0:02:50.280 one century ago with a massacre and what was then 0:02:50.480 --> 0:02:51.920 British mandate Palestine. 0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:54.680 Well take us back to nineteen twenty nine, because it 0:02:54.680 --> 0:02:57.120 does feel like we need to understand the history, and 0:02:57.160 --> 0:02:59.360 I feel like we continue to be kind of on 0:02:59.360 --> 0:03:01.520 a history life, and for those of us not either 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:03.880 from the region, born in the region, lived in the region, 0:03:04.400 --> 0:03:07.680 or have some personal impact from it, you know, we're 0:03:08.040 --> 0:03:12.520 constantly kind of studying to understand the complicated nature. Somebody 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:14.400 said very simplistically to me, well, it's kind of like 0:03:14.480 --> 0:03:16.480 gang wars to some extent because you have so many 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:18.680 different groups. How do you see it and how does 0:03:18.720 --> 0:03:21.120 going back to nineteen twenty nine take us back there 0:03:21.320 --> 0:03:22.560 in terms of what happened. 0:03:22.840 --> 0:03:26.880 Yeah, so, so many people begin their conversations around the 0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:31.120 origins of this war with years like nineteen sixty seven 0:03:31.360 --> 0:03:35.480 or nineteen forty eight, but this conflict began long before that, 0:03:36.080 --> 0:03:38.080 actually two decades before. 0:03:38.360 --> 0:03:40.040 We see the emerging. 0:03:40.040 --> 0:03:44.040 Of the driving forces behind this conflict today, and those 0:03:44.120 --> 0:03:48.880 forces our religion, as I said before, but also disinformation, 0:03:49.200 --> 0:03:52.760 and it was a campaign of disinformation that led to 0:03:53.400 --> 0:03:56.720 this horrific massacre of one of the world's most ancient 0:03:56.800 --> 0:04:00.120 Jewish communities in Hebron in what was then British and 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:04.440 Date Palestine in nineteen twenty nine. And my book Elucidates 0:04:04.440 --> 0:04:09.040 and Gripping detail the parallels between that massacre one century 0:04:09.040 --> 0:04:11.640 ago and the massacre of October seventh. 0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:14.040 Why do you think so many modern conversations about the 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:16.880 history of the region, at least the modern history, start 0:04:16.920 --> 0:04:19.040 in nineteen forty eight and don't go back to nineteen 0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:19.640 twenty nine. 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:23.000 Yeah, that's an excellent question, And I think it comes 0:04:23.080 --> 0:04:26.520 down to people not really being able to wrap their 0:04:26.520 --> 0:04:30.919 heads around what is really complicated and a conflict that 0:04:30.960 --> 0:04:33.120 has such a long history, and so they try to 0:04:33.240 --> 0:04:35.440 look at it in the simplest way possible. 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:37.920 And it makes sense then to begin. 0:04:37.760 --> 0:04:40.160 That story in nineteen forty eight, But that's like beginning 0:04:40.200 --> 0:04:44.080 a story in the middle, because you see the emergence 0:04:44.279 --> 0:04:48.000 of what has become a very prominent lie that is 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:53.200 told around alak samosque it is the third holiest site 0:04:53.200 --> 0:04:56.440 in Islam, and it sits upon the ruins of the 0:04:56.440 --> 0:05:00.880 ancient Jewish temples in Jerusalem, and that the temple is 0:05:01.000 --> 0:05:03.720 the holiest site in Judaism, and that kind of tells 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:06.680 you why religion plays such a big role in this conflict. 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:10.839 But the rumor that is still told by Muslim leaders 0:05:10.839 --> 0:05:14.599 today is that the Jews of what was then Palestine 0:05:15.000 --> 0:05:17.760 were planning to conquer Al Alczamosk. That was the lie 0:05:17.800 --> 0:05:21.200 that led to the massacre of nineteen twenty nine, and 0:05:21.320 --> 0:05:25.760 that lie continues to be told today by groups like 0:05:26.080 --> 0:05:30.839 Hamas the Iitola of Iran Hezbadah. And you can just 0:05:30.880 --> 0:05:34.080 look at the name that Hamas gave to its operation 0:05:34.360 --> 0:05:38.440 on October seventh. It was called Alaksa flood because this 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:42.240 lie about the Jews of Palestine in nineteen twenty nine 0:05:42.360 --> 0:05:46.280 or today Israel. This lie that they're trying to conquer 0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:50.520 all Okzamosk to rebuild the ancient Jewish Temple is such 0:05:50.560 --> 0:05:54.240 a powerful force, a galvanizing force in the region, and 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:58.400 corrupt leaders like the leader of Palestinian Muslims under British 0:05:58.440 --> 0:06:03.280 rule in nineteen twenty nine, have managed to distract criticism 0:06:03.680 --> 0:06:08.400 of corruption, nepotism, misappropriation of funds. For the last century. 0:06:08.440 --> 0:06:11.120 They've been able to distract their people from their own 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:15.360 failures by holding on to this lie that is so powerful. 0:06:15.560 --> 0:06:17.920 Yodana, I know the book focuses on nineteen twenty nine, 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:19.520 but I want to go back even earlier than that 0:06:19.600 --> 0:06:22.040 and sort of understand how the seeds for this were planted, 0:06:22.320 --> 0:06:26.359 maybe even during the British occupation of the area earlier 0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:26.960 in the century. 0:06:27.320 --> 0:06:31.680 Yeah, so we're talking about British Mandate Palestine. This was 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:36.000 a mandate given to the British Empire to rule over 0:06:36.560 --> 0:06:40.240 what it had just conquered from the Ottoman Empire, which 0:06:40.240 --> 0:06:43.680 had ruled that territory for more than four hundred years, 0:06:44.400 --> 0:06:49.400 and before the Ottoman Empire conquered the region. It was 0:06:49.880 --> 0:06:53.400 a province of a rotating cast of foreign powers, going 0:06:53.440 --> 0:06:57.440 back to the Romans, the Greeks, the Crusaders. It was 0:06:57.480 --> 0:07:02.640 actually the Romans who gave Palestine its name. It had 0:07:02.760 --> 0:07:06.279 been known as the Kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom 0:07:06.320 --> 0:07:11.560 of Judea, and when the Jews of Judea carried out 0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:15.640 a rebellion against the Romans, they punished them by renaming 0:07:15.920 --> 0:07:20.680 the land after the Israelites' ancient enemies, the Philistines. 0:07:21.080 --> 0:07:23.040 Well, and I guess that's what I'm wondering is you know, 0:07:23.120 --> 0:07:26.360 you go back to, as we said, the early nineteen 0:07:26.480 --> 0:07:31.240 hundreds and the role of colonialism the UK specifically, you know, 0:07:31.280 --> 0:07:34.440 in establishing a national home for the Jewish people in Palestine, 0:07:34.600 --> 0:07:38.320 which was against the wishes of the indigenous Arab population. 0:07:38.440 --> 0:07:40.800 You do also wonder how that kind of set the 0:07:40.840 --> 0:07:43.640 stage in addition to what you were talking about, which 0:07:43.720 --> 0:07:47.840 led to the Hebron massacre, that there was more going 0:07:47.920 --> 0:07:53.000 on that made for a very volatile environment between these 0:07:53.040 --> 0:07:54.200 two populations. 0:07:54.720 --> 0:07:59.320 Absolutely, Yeah, the conflict didn't just begin out of nowhere 0:07:59.360 --> 0:08:02.240 in nineteen two twenty nine. Of course, the tensions between 0:08:02.760 --> 0:08:06.960 Palestine's Jewish minority and its Arab majority had been simmering 0:08:07.120 --> 0:08:10.640 for years and had already claimed dozens of lives by 0:08:10.720 --> 0:08:13.600 nineteen twenty nine, but the massacre in Hebron and the 0:08:13.720 --> 0:08:17.360 riots that engulfed Palestine that week in August of nineteen 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:22.240 twenty nine really became the first mass casualty event of 0:08:22.280 --> 0:08:26.440 this conflict and kind of set the formula for every 0:08:27.040 --> 0:08:29.480 eruption of violence that we have seen since. 0:08:29.720 --> 0:08:32.400 You lived in Israel for more than a decade, and 0:08:32.920 --> 0:08:36.079 as we've been speaking with our reporters on the ground there, 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:39.240 they've shared with us this feeling that people in Israel 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:42.080 right now do feel like that the conflict they are 0:08:42.120 --> 0:08:45.960 fighting is one that is indeed existential. And I'm wondering 0:08:45.960 --> 0:08:48.600 if you think, given what's going on there today, the 0:08:48.640 --> 0:08:51.680 actual existence of Israel in the future is threatened. 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:57.360 Absolutely understanding that really helps to explain the actions Israel 0:08:57.400 --> 0:09:04.120 has taken since October seventh. You know, there's talk of disproportionality, 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:06.880 and we heard this from Biden today, but I think 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:09.720 if you are in Israel and you see your country 0:09:09.760 --> 0:09:15.240 being attacked from seven fronts, and you see a world 0:09:15.320 --> 0:09:18.200 that doesn't really understand that the only reason we're not 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:23.520 seeing mass casualties yesterday and today as a result of 0:09:23.600 --> 0:09:29.240 Iran's ballistic missile attack is a result of Israel's defense systems. 0:09:29.280 --> 0:09:32.720 I mean, you don't just have the Iron Dome intercepting 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:35.320 some of those rockets, but you also are many of 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:38.840 those rockets, I should say, but you also have the 0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:45.120 government investing in bomb shelters for israelis something that I wish, 0:09:45.320 --> 0:09:48.480 you know, other countries would do. If imagine if Gozans 0:09:48.520 --> 0:09:51.559 had bomb shelters or Lebanese civilians had bomb shelters that 0:09:51.600 --> 0:09:54.720 could protect them from the terror groups that are embedding 0:09:54.800 --> 0:10:00.200 themselves within civilian populations. And you know, Israel really is 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:05.240 fighting a war not just against the Palestinians, it's against Hamas, 0:10:05.280 --> 0:10:08.200 but it's also against Hesbalah. And you know, like I 0:10:08.200 --> 0:10:10.439 said earlier, we really should be looking at the names 0:10:10.440 --> 0:10:13.040 of these organizations because they tell us everything. I mean, 0:10:13.360 --> 0:10:15.120 Hezbalah's name means the. 0:10:15.040 --> 0:10:15.880 Party of God. 0:10:16.240 --> 0:10:20.920 Hamas's name is the Islamic Resistance Movement in English. You know, 0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:25.800 so much of what these organizations say themselves we're not 0:10:25.960 --> 0:10:29.240 hearing in the West. And what they're saying is they 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:33.199 desire to destroy the state of Israel and Israel israelis 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:35.240 hear that, but I think a lot of us here 0:10:35.360 --> 0:10:36.960 don't understand that. 0:10:37.440 --> 0:10:41.320 So in your thinking about the region and the way forward, 0:10:41.880 --> 0:10:44.480 we assume we fingers cross that we get to a 0:10:44.520 --> 0:10:46.840 better place at some point. Although it's hard to see 0:10:47.080 --> 0:10:51.720 right now, does a two states solution in some ways 0:10:51.960 --> 0:10:56.800 help the situation, specifically in Israel and with the Palestinians. 0:10:57.559 --> 0:11:00.960 So I do believe that a two state solution is 0:11:01.000 --> 0:11:04.640 the only solution to this conflict. And just going back 0:11:04.679 --> 0:11:09.200 to the history here, I began writing this book nearly 0:11:09.280 --> 0:11:11.400 six years ago. You know, I didn't just pick up 0:11:11.440 --> 0:11:13.640 and start writing this after October seventh. I was writing 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:19.840 about this massacre well before October seventh. The reason I 0:11:19.840 --> 0:11:22.600 did was because there was this family in Memphis, Tennessee 0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:25.680 that I was introduced to that had found this box 0:11:25.800 --> 0:11:29.240 of letters in their attic, containing hundreds of pages of 0:11:29.320 --> 0:11:32.800 letters from their late uncle who was murdered in the 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:36.120 massacre in nineteen twenty nine, and his letters painted this 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:42.640 beautiful portrait of peaceful coexistence in Hebron that preceded the massacre. 0:11:43.080 --> 0:11:45.640 And what really captured me and reading these letters was 0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:49.600 that I had never known, and many people didn't know 0:11:49.760 --> 0:11:52.600 or don't know that Hebron was once a beacon of 0:11:52.640 --> 0:11:57.640 coexistence in Palestine, and today, if you're familiar with Hebron, 0:11:57.800 --> 0:12:01.960 it is the antithesis of peaceful co existence. And I 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:06.319 think understanding how that happened really can tell us how 0:12:06.360 --> 0:12:09.319 we can find a way out and work towards peace, 0:12:09.440 --> 0:12:12.360 because really, if you look the last century, a two 0:12:12.440 --> 0:12:14.600 state solution has been on the table since at least 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:18.640 nineteen thirty seven. Right and Palasan leaders have rejected every 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:22.000 single two state solution since then. I mean, Palestine could 0:12:22.040 --> 0:12:24.280 have been independent and free for the first time in 0:12:24.480 --> 0:12:29.360 history in nineteen forty seven had Palestinian leaders and Arab 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:34.160 leaders accepted that solution, and instead they declared war on 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:35.480 the unborn Jewish state. 0:12:35.559 --> 0:12:38.040 And in the meantime, many innocent lives have been lost 0:12:38.480 --> 0:12:41.120 and continue to do. So You're Donna, thank you so much. 0:12:41.160 --> 0:12:44.800 Appreciate getting some time with you, your Danish Schwartz, journalist and author. 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:47.280 New book is Ghosts of a Holy War, the nineteen 0:12:47.320 --> 0:12:52.000 twenty nine massacre in Palestine that ignited the Arab Israeli conflict. 0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:54.080 So we appreciate getting some time with her. 0:12:55.040 --> 0:12:58.560 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us 0:12:58.600 --> 0:13:01.839 live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern. Listen 0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:04.040 on Apple, card Play and and brout Otto with a 0:13:04.040 --> 0:13:07.040 Bloomberg Business app, or watch us live on YouTube. 0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:09.880 Okay, Carol, you know I was out in Colorado. I 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:12.640 was biking last month with my dad. I went all 0:13:12.679 --> 0:13:17.160 over the state. I saw in some situations neighbors dueling 0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:20.280 with each other when it came to political signs across 0:13:20.280 --> 0:13:23.000 the street, next door, neighbors literally calling each other out, 0:13:23.040 --> 0:13:25.199 depending on where I was A few times. It was 0:13:25.280 --> 0:13:27.280 kind of funny out there, but it reminded me of 0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:30.359 the deep divide that we see in the American political landscape. 0:13:30.800 --> 0:13:32.320 Not that I need to be reminded of it, because 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:34.720 out there in the media, it's there each and every day. 0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:37.400 It's not just our imaginations though. A report from the 0:13:37.400 --> 0:13:41.040 Pew Research Center this summer said, quote, Republicans and Democrats 0:13:41.400 --> 0:13:45.400 are more divided along ideological lines, and partisan antipathy is 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:47.840 deeper and more extensive than at any point in the 0:13:47.920 --> 0:13:48.959 last two decades. 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:51.000 Well, we feel it, right. We talk about it constantly. 0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:54.360 This division that we're seeing, whether it's across party lines 0:13:54.559 --> 0:13:55.439 or elsewhere. 0:13:55.520 --> 0:13:58.920 Oftentimes folks out there use division and the word tribes 0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:01.320 to sort of describe the It's often looked at in 0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:04.040 a pejorative way, just another thing that kind of pushes 0:14:04.120 --> 0:14:06.960 us apart, and it makes us separate from one another. Yet, 0:14:07.000 --> 0:14:10.720 Michael Morris argues in a new book that perhaps rather paradoxically, 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:13.960 what keeps us apart can actually bring us closer together. 0:14:14.280 --> 0:14:15.479 Kind of love that idea. 0:14:15.559 --> 0:14:18.720 Michael Morris is Professor of Leadership at Columbia Business School. 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:21.360 His new book is out Tribal How the cultural instincts 0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:23.040 that divide us can help bring us together. 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:24.480 He joins us from New York. 0:14:24.560 --> 0:14:26.280 Michael, so great to have you here with us, so 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:29.560 relevant in terms of here we are in an election year. 0:14:29.680 --> 0:14:32.000 So talk to us a little bit about, first of all, 0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:36.240 just kind of general concept of what divides us can 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:38.680 bring us together. Why did you think we needed you 0:14:38.760 --> 0:14:40.920 needed to write this book and bring it bring it 0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:41.400 to people. 0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:44.000 Well, thank you for having me. This is a book 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:47.080 that I've been working on for almost ten years. I'm 0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:50.600 a behavioral scientist, you know, a research psychologist, and my 0:14:51.040 --> 0:14:54.960 specialty is cultural psychology, which is the study of the 0:14:54.960 --> 0:14:58.680 cultural frames in our heads that guide our thinking, guide 0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:02.160 our actions and decisions, and what activates them and how 0:15:02.200 --> 0:15:06.920 they change. And I've been teaching at top business schools 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:10.760 for decades at Columbia Business School, formerly at Stanford Business School, 0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:14.960 So I've developed a toolkit for thinking about how to 0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:20.880 use the cultural forces that shape people's thinking to create 0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:24.880 unity in a group, or to create change in a 0:15:25.040 --> 0:15:28.680 society or in an organization. And that's the reason that 0:15:28.760 --> 0:15:31.280 I started writing this book sort of to create a 0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:38.320 playbook for activists, leaders, managers, high school teachers, coaches, anybody 0:15:38.640 --> 0:15:45.120 who has to orchestrate a group into a productive direction. 0:15:45.320 --> 0:15:47.320 Well, and what's interesting is you hear the word tribe 0:15:47.360 --> 0:15:49.680 or tribalism, and you might get a little i don't know, 0:15:50.560 --> 0:15:52.800 maybe put off a little bit or think one way. 0:15:53.120 --> 0:15:55.960 But you say, when we think of tribes, it's countries, 0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:59.160 it's churches, it's political parties, it's companies, it could be families, right, 0:16:00.440 --> 0:16:02.320 groups that we deal with all the time. 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:06.800 Yeah, tribes, you know, from a from an evolutionary standpoint 0:16:06.960 --> 0:16:10.640 or from a you know, classic anthropology standpoint, it just 0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:16.080 refers to the distinctively human form of social organization, which 0:16:16.120 --> 0:16:20.680 is large communities that are united by shared culture as 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:24.640 opposed to being united by blood relations or being united 0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:29.000 by you know, diadic bonds between people. And that's you know, 0:16:29.040 --> 0:16:32.120 that's how we differ from other primates. We can you 0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:35.120 could never have a Chimpanzee Manhattan. You know, once, once 0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:38.080 they get more than fifty individuals in a group, it 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:41.520 starts to break apart because they depend on either being 0:16:41.520 --> 0:16:46.200 related or having a direct personal bond of trust. We 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:49.680 can trust total strangers because we share culture with them, 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:52.560 so we can we can understand them, and we can 0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:55.240 predict their movements, and we can predict what they will do, 0:16:55.320 --> 0:16:59.080 so we can trust them. So, yeah, tribalism is mostly 0:16:59.120 --> 0:17:01.480 a good thing. It's made us human. It's what got 0:17:01.520 --> 0:17:04.399 us where we are now. I think what's really interesting is, 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:07.639 you know, over the past ten years while I've been 0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:10.879 writing this book, there's been kind of a trope of 0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:15.119 toxic tribalism that has emerged among the pundit class and 0:17:15.160 --> 0:17:18.480 has been picked up by politicians and business leaders. And 0:17:18.520 --> 0:17:23.000 the idea is that somehow, a deeply evolved drive to 0:17:23.840 --> 0:17:28.800 hate each other has somehow reawakened, and now we're screwed 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:31.480 because we don't talk to each other anymore, and there's 0:17:31.480 --> 0:17:33.680 no way to get the genie back into the bottle anymore. 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:37.920 And this makes for colorful articles, and maybe it makes 0:17:37.960 --> 0:17:42.360 for you know, riveting speeches, but it's a kind of despairing, 0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:46.040 fatalistic take on the conflicts of our time. I don't 0:17:46.080 --> 0:17:48.640 think it's a helpful way to think, and I don't 0:17:48.640 --> 0:17:51.439 think it's an accurate way to think. It's not a 0:17:51.480 --> 0:17:56.159 way of talking about tribal instincts that any evolutionary scholar 0:17:56.400 --> 0:17:59.760 or any behavioral scientists would recognize. So I think we've 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:04.000 kind of talked ourselves into this take on tribalism that's 0:18:04.040 --> 0:18:06.720 not scientifically founded and not helpful. 0:18:07.040 --> 0:18:10.400 Well, Professor Morris, would you dispute the idea that we're 0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:13.440 more divided now, like the Pew research says, than we 0:18:13.480 --> 0:18:16.159 are at least politically, and then we have been in 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:19.320 previous decades for the last twenty years. Does that seem 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:21.080 not necessarily accurate to you? 0:18:21.080 --> 0:18:24.440 You know, perhaps in the last twenty years, but certainly 0:18:24.480 --> 0:18:26.800 not the claim that I hear more often, which is 0:18:26.840 --> 0:18:31.120 that the American people have never been this divided. You know, 0:18:30.800 --> 0:18:35.320 if you read history in eighteen sixty Abraham Lincoln became president. 0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:37.880 He had less than forty percent of the popular vote. 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:41.639 Seven states seceded before he was even inaugurated. The Civil 0:18:41.720 --> 0:18:45.080 War breaks out. A few weeks afterwards, four more states secede. 0:18:45.280 --> 0:18:51.400 Now that's that's a crisis. That's that's a legitimacy crisis 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:55.200 for a president, and that's a big rift to heal. 0:18:55.720 --> 0:18:58.280 But Lincoln was one of the leaders, and there are 0:18:58.320 --> 0:19:02.800 many throughout history and business leaders who they had faith 0:19:03.000 --> 0:19:08.080 that the best way to heal a divide was tribal memory. 0:19:08.160 --> 0:19:11.240 It was it was appealing to our common ancestors, appealing 0:19:11.280 --> 0:19:14.680 to our common past. You know, Lincoln had that famous, 0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:19.680 mysterious line in his first inauguration that the the mystic 0:19:19.800 --> 0:19:23.600 chords of memory shall yet swell the chorus of the Union. 0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:26.879 You know what was he talking about. Well, he thought 0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:30.040 of himself as a storyteller in chief, and he made 0:19:30.080 --> 0:19:34.240 all of these wonderful speeches like the Gettysburg Address that 0:19:34.520 --> 0:19:37.639 you know, made reference to the sacrifices of our common 0:19:37.640 --> 0:19:41.359 ancestors and the common ideals that you know. You know, 0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:43.919 even people in the South were moved by that speech. 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:49.200 One holiday we have coming up as Thanksgiving and We 0:19:49.400 --> 0:19:53.560 often associate Thanksgiving with the Pilgrims, but it was really 0:19:53.600 --> 0:19:58.600 Abraham Lincoln who started Thanksgiving as a national holiday. And 0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:01.080 he did it because he thought that we need we 0:20:01.160 --> 0:20:08.560 needed a national ritual of gratitude and memory. Uh and 0:20:08.600 --> 0:20:13.760 that and that, more than anything else, could bring people together. So, 0:20:14.000 --> 0:20:18.080 you know, we may think of nostalgia and sentimentality about 0:20:18.080 --> 0:20:21.240 the past as a you know, as a silly, irrational 0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:24.639 way of thinking, but it's it's a deep part of 0:20:24.680 --> 0:20:28.840 our tribal wiring and one that can be used for inclusiveness, 0:20:28.880 --> 0:20:32.240 not not just for divisiveness. You know, we see, you know, 0:20:32.280 --> 0:20:36.720 we see a brand of populist politics nowadays where the 0:20:36.800 --> 0:20:39.480 story is, you know, things used to be great, but 0:20:39.600 --> 0:20:42.280 now we have all these immigrants and things are are 0:20:42.359 --> 0:20:47.600 going to hell. Well that's that's a divisive form of populism. 0:20:47.640 --> 0:20:52.000 But there have been many leaders who practiced inclusive forms 0:20:52.000 --> 0:20:56.040 of populism. And I think we need to understand tribalism 0:20:56.480 --> 0:20:58.520 and understand all the ways that we can use it 0:20:58.800 --> 0:21:01.400 At a time like this. 0:21:00.440 --> 0:21:02.480 This is fascinating, I guess I want to ask you 0:21:02.560 --> 0:21:05.280 about what's going on in our culture where so many 0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:10.160 younger white men are pretty angry and feel left behind. 0:21:11.000 --> 0:21:15.040 What's happened, Well, they used to have a not automatic, 0:21:15.359 --> 0:21:19.840 but a relatively easy path to success in social standing 0:21:19.960 --> 0:21:23.760 because they were from the favored group, the group that 0:21:23.840 --> 0:21:26.720 was sort of the prototype of who should have positions 0:21:26.720 --> 0:21:31.439 of power and responsibility and affluence, and that is declining. 0:21:31.520 --> 0:21:36.440 It's certainly not over, but it's diminishing, and so they 0:21:36.480 --> 0:21:39.359 feel like people are cutting ahead in line, you know, 0:21:39.359 --> 0:21:42.600 people are taking the places that should be theirs. And 0:21:43.520 --> 0:21:46.320 you know, it's not completely new. I mean, there's been 0:21:46.359 --> 0:21:50.720 resentments about affirmative action for decades, but I think now 0:21:51.560 --> 0:21:56.200 it's not just affirmative action. It's that we've had waves 0:21:56.200 --> 0:21:59.760 of very talented immigrants coming into the country, you know, 0:21:59.800 --> 0:22:03.800 for the past twenty years, and that means that a 0:22:03.840 --> 0:22:08.680 lot of our you know, native born, white male good 0:22:08.720 --> 0:22:12.320 old boys are not you know, are not getting those promotions. 0:22:12.359 --> 0:22:17.119 You know, it's it's it's Russians and you know, Brazilians 0:22:17.240 --> 0:22:20.960 and you know, Nigerians who are getting those promotions, and 0:22:21.920 --> 0:22:25.399 not necessarily because of any DEEI policies, just because we 0:22:25.520 --> 0:22:28.320 have so many talented people from all around the world 0:22:28.359 --> 0:22:29.160 who've arrived. 0:22:29.240 --> 0:22:31.680 Have you seen anecdotally. Have you seen anecdotally that show 0:22:31.760 --> 0:22:33.600 up in your business school classes in the decades that 0:22:33.640 --> 0:22:35.440 you've been teaching, Have they become more diverse? 0:22:36.000 --> 0:22:36.560 Very much so. 0:22:37.000 --> 0:22:43.480 The MBA population has changed dramatically. I had a class 0:22:43.840 --> 0:22:48.000 last spring, a class of fifty people, and I had 0:22:48.160 --> 0:22:51.800 seven Nigerian students. You know, some of them Nigerian Americans, 0:22:52.040 --> 0:22:55.000 but they were all you know, students who were Nigerian, 0:22:55.119 --> 0:22:57.199 you know, by identity, and that's you know, Nigeria is 0:22:57.200 --> 0:22:58.919 one of the most populous countries in the world, so 0:22:58.960 --> 0:23:02.120 we shouldn't be surprised. But it wasn't the case when 0:23:02.119 --> 0:23:05.000 you were in the business school classroom. We weren't recruiting 0:23:05.080 --> 0:23:08.960 from Africa and the African diaspora in the same way. 0:23:09.160 --> 0:23:11.359