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Speaker 1: What ah ship boy. Now, any introduction I could make

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Speaker 1: like that for this episode is just going to be

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Speaker 1: in poor taste. This is Behind the Bastards, UM, a

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Speaker 1: podcast that is never introduced well and wasn't introduced well

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Speaker 1: this time. But at least I stopped myself from getting

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Speaker 1: into major trouble. Are you proud? So Ki proud? The

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Speaker 1: training has worked? So today we have a special motherfucker

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Speaker 1: of a tale for for everyone. UM. Obviously, if you've

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Speaker 1: been like even paying the least bit of attention to

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Speaker 1: the news, UM, you will notice that a lot of

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Speaker 1: terrible ethnic cleansing or ethnic cleansing adjacent stuff has been

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Speaker 1: going on in Palestine, or has been done in Palestine

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Speaker 1: recently by the Israeli government. UM. We have not really

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Speaker 1: delved into any of that conflict or it's bastards. And

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Speaker 1: today we're going to talk about the Net and Yahoo family. UM.

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Speaker 1: And because this is well outside of my wheelhouse, our

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Speaker 1: guest today is doctor Donna el kerd um, an Assistant professor,

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Speaker 1: PhD in political science and author of Polarized and Demobilized

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Speaker 1: Legacies of Authoritarianism in Palestine. Uh, Danna, how are you

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Speaker 1: doing today? I'm okay. The time difference is gonna make

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Speaker 1: me perhaps not the most lucid, but it'll be fine.

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Speaker 1: Yeah you are. It's like late at night for you,

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Speaker 1: it's unspeakably early in the morning for me. So, um,

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Speaker 1: that's like a normal human six am for Robert. I

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Speaker 1: was gonna sympathize, but I no longer a sympathize. You

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Speaker 1: should not. Um, Dana, could you want to give a

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Speaker 1: little bit of your background here, just kind of before

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Speaker 1: we get we get started on the episode today, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: like like personal professional background. Yeah. So so, Um, I'm

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Speaker 1: from Jerusalem, Uh, born there, and I lived there for

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Speaker 1: some time and then I Um, I had kind of

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Speaker 1: a weird topsy turvity tale. But I went to Japan

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Speaker 1: and then I went to the United States. UM and

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Speaker 1: I received a PhD from the University of Texas at

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Speaker 1: Austin in putical science in government. UM and I specialize

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Speaker 1: in compared to politics and international relations, with a focused

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Speaker 1: on Palestine. UM And well generally yeah, yeah, and I'm

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Speaker 1: happy to have you one. I'm happy to be talking

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Speaker 1: about this because, like I think, there's there's a couple

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Speaker 1: of reasons people don't talk about what's happening in Palestine enough.

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Speaker 1: One of them is kind of the almost insurmountable, well,

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Speaker 1: it seems less insurmountable now than it ever has, but

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Speaker 1: like almost insurmountable level of kind of thoughtless, inherent sympathy

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Speaker 1: to Israel that is built into the US education system

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Speaker 1: and to our media system, to the way that stories

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Speaker 1: are framed. There was a great New York not a

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Speaker 1: great New York Times article, but a New York Times

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Speaker 1: article that was a great example of this recently where

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Speaker 1: they they talked about the number of Israelis killed by

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Speaker 1: Hamas rockets and the number of Palestinians who died and

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Speaker 1: that were killed by like just died like okay dead

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Speaker 1: out of yeah sympathy, And it's um so I so,

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Speaker 1: I think that's one reason why this doesn't get enough coverage.

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Speaker 1: But I think a reason why people like myself who

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Speaker 1: are inherently sympathetic to the Palestinian um cause maybe don't

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Speaker 1: cover this enough is um the historical complexity. And when

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Speaker 1: I say complexity, I'm not talking about the complexity of

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Speaker 1: the morality of the situation, because I don't think it's

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Speaker 1: particularly complex. I think it's an ethnic cleansing, but the

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Speaker 1: history is and I think when you like one of

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Speaker 1: the things that has stopped me for maybe covering this

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Speaker 1: as much as I would have wanted is um, I

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Speaker 1: get so nervous when I try to figure out how

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Speaker 1: to talk about the history, because there's a lot that

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Speaker 1: goes on, not just with the history UH since n

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Speaker 1: in Palestine, but with the history of the Zionist movement there.

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Speaker 1: Like it's just a shipload of stuff has gone on.

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Speaker 1: So today we're gonna be talking about the net and

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Speaker 1: Yahoo family and their role in Zionism, and we're also

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Speaker 1: going to be kind of giving an overview of how

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Speaker 1: that kind of played into two more broadly, the ongoing

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Speaker 1: UM I mean ethnic cleansing and Palistina. I can't really

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Speaker 1: use that phrase enough, I don't think so. UM I

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Speaker 1: mean kudos for using it, I'd say that's not the

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Speaker 1: common one that's used. If the if the UH series

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Speaker 1: of government actions taken to remove a religious and ethnic

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Speaker 1: group from its homeland fits uh. I know that's where

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Speaker 1: we were going on that one. So UM Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: kind of thought a lot about how to actually cover this,

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Speaker 1: and I feel like, because this is behind the bastards,

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Speaker 1: UM are strong point is covering individuals and people who

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Speaker 1: are particularly shitty, and I think kind of the Net

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Speaker 1: and Yahoo family is a good way to ground this

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Speaker 1: because of how central they've been to a lot of

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Speaker 1: everything that's happened there over the last I don't know,

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Speaker 1: eighty some years, seventy some years, how many years has

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Speaker 1: been since night like, yeah, seventy one. Um. So there

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Speaker 1: are a lot of sources for this episode. A key

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Speaker 1: one was the book b b by Ansel Feffer Um.

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Speaker 1: And I think there's some folks who are better versed

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Speaker 1: in the history of the region that could bring some

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Speaker 1: criticisms of this book, But to me, it seemed like

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Speaker 1: a really fair and very critical look at both Net

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Speaker 1: and Yahoo bab Net and Yahoo and the Net and

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Speaker 1: Yahoo family, um. And it gives a lot of detail

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Speaker 1: about kind of the the early Zionist movement. So we're

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Speaker 1: gonna start by talking about Babie's grandpa, whose name was

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Speaker 1: Nathan Milikowski, and he was born in eighteen seventy nine

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Speaker 1: in the village of Kreva in modern Belarus. Now. At

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Speaker 1: that time the area was part of the Russian Empire,

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Speaker 1: and as the documentary Fiddler on the Roof shows, it

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Speaker 1: was not a great time and a place to be

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Speaker 1: Jewish the Russian Empire the eighteen seventies, a lot of

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Speaker 1: real bad things happening there. Um, roughly five million Jewish

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Speaker 1: people lived in what was called the Pale of Settlement. Now,

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Speaker 1: this was a clearly defined area of territory within the

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Speaker 1: Russian Empire where Jewish people were legally allowed to reside,

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Speaker 1: and it was illegal to be a Jewish person living

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Speaker 1: outside of the Pale of Settlement, which is not a

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Speaker 1: situation that I think would seem familiar to any people

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Speaker 1: living at Balastine today. Now, um, if Jewish people left

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Speaker 1: or traded in other parts of Russia, they could be arrested.

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Speaker 1: And it is worth noting that when these laws were

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Speaker 1: first laid down in the fifteen hundreds or so, everybody

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Speaker 1: in Russia who wasn't a noble had this kind of

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Speaker 1: limited freedom of movement. Right, Most people were serfs, they

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Speaker 1: were slaves bound to the land. So in the fifteen hundreds,

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Speaker 1: when the Pale of Settlement is established, the Jewish Jewish

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Speaker 1: people in Russia are not the only people who were

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Speaker 1: restricted from moving this way. Right, Russia's a horrific autocracy.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's still kind of is, but it was

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Speaker 1: an even worse one back then um when serfdom ended,

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Speaker 1: though and freedom of movement was extended to the mass

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Speaker 1: of citizens, Russian Jews remained restricted. And that's kind of

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Speaker 1: like the eighteen hundreds now. The Czars in this period

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Speaker 1: were absolute monarchs, and the reasons for restricting their reasons

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Speaker 1: for restricting Jewish businesses from operating in parts of the

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Speaker 1: Empire were generally as petty as believing there were too

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Speaker 1: many Jewish innkeepers in a specific like part of the Empire,

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Speaker 1: like Poland, and wanting to put a stop to that.

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Speaker 1: The Czars also opened parts of the Russian frontier up

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Speaker 1: to Jewish habitation when they wanted to colonize those areas,

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Speaker 1: though so they both restricted them and used them as

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Speaker 1: colonizing agents in areas like Ukraine. By the end of

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Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds, things had started to open up a little,

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Speaker 1: but it was not an even process, as this quote

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Speaker 1: from the Jewish Virtual Library makes clear. Quote. The Jews

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Speaker 1: hoped that these regulations would prove to be the first

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Speaker 1: steps towards the complete abolition of the pale of settlement. However,

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Speaker 1: they were disappointed when these alleviations came to a complete

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Speaker 1: halt after eighteen eighty one, as part of the general

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Speaker 1: reaction in Russia at this period. The Temporary Laws of

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Speaker 1: eighteen eighty one prohibited any new settlement by Jews outside

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Speaker 1: towns and townlets. In the pale of settlement, Jews who

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Speaker 1: had been living in villages before the publication of the

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Speaker 1: decree were authorized to reside in those same villages. Only

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Speaker 1: the peasants were granted the right of demanding the expulsion

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Speaker 1: of the Jews who lived among them. The decrees were

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Speaker 1: bound up with intensified administrative pressure, brutality by local authorities,

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Speaker 1: and the systematic acceptance of bribery on the part of

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Speaker 1: the lower administrative ranks. So that's kind of the situation

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Speaker 1: in Russia in this period. When Nathan Milikowski grows up

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Speaker 1: and that's Babie's grandpa again. Um, Now, his family is

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Speaker 1: dirt poor, Probably not a big surprise given everything we've

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Speaker 1: talked about. His dad is basically a subsistence farmer. But

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Speaker 1: Nathan is gifted and is immediately kind of noted as

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Speaker 1: being very intelligent and marked to go to a yeshiva,

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Speaker 1: which is a religious school. Uh. Now, his family was

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Speaker 1: so poor that the entire village had to take up

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Speaker 1: a collection to fund his education. Education. At that time,

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Speaker 1: rabbinical students and Nathan is a rabbinical student, were forbidden

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Speaker 1: from studying anything but religion, so it was like illegal

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Speaker 1: for kids in the ashiva to study math, science, foreign languages.

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Speaker 1: Part of this was because Russia had a jew quota

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Speaker 1: in university, so you couldn't have more than a certain

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Speaker 1: number of Jewish people out of college. UM. And another

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Speaker 1: part of it was there there's a lot of weird

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Speaker 1: Russian laws bound up in this, but the gist of

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Speaker 1: it is that a lot of kids in the Yeshiva

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Speaker 1: are like illegally studying not just ath but socialism and

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Speaker 1: communism at nighttime, which is why so many socialist revolutionaries

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Speaker 1: in the late eighteen hundreds early nineteen hundreds in Russia

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Speaker 1: were Jewish. UM. By the time that Nathan was starting

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Speaker 1: his education of the eighteen nineties, UM anarchism and communism

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Speaker 1: had gotten to be like increasingly popular underground topics in

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Speaker 1: the Yeshiva, and a lot of kids, like Yeshiva students

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Speaker 1: on the left, were leaving school to take part in

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Speaker 1: growing movements against the czar. Nathan was not one of these.

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Speaker 1: He was taken by a very different strain of radicalism

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Speaker 1: what was known as Hovevi Zion or the Lovers of Zion,

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Speaker 1: and these are one of the first European Zionist movements. Uh.

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Speaker 1: In short, the members of Hovevi Zion believed that the

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Speaker 1: Jews of Europe needed to immigrate to what had historically been,

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Speaker 1: you know, the biblical land of Israel, which at that

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Speaker 1: point was controlled by the Ottoman Empire. Nathan fell in

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Speaker 1: love with this idea, which was at the time widely

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Speaker 1: panned by the most influential Russian rabbis of the day,

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Speaker 1: who felt like, no, we we've gained a lot in

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Speaker 1: the way of rights, unless we need to like stay

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Speaker 1: here and continue to be you know, part of the

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Speaker 1: Russian state. Um. Now, among the most influential Hovevi Zion

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Speaker 1: advocates was a French Jewish journalist named Theodore herzel Um.

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Speaker 1: And herzel was again French, so he covered the dry

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Speaker 1: Fust affair in Paris in eighteen ninety four, which we've

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Speaker 1: talked about before in this show. And he was so

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Speaker 1: horrified by the rise of the anti Semitic French right

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Speaker 1: and the dry Fist affair. Is this Jewish French officer

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Speaker 1: gets accused of passing secrets to the Russian He was innocent,

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Speaker 1: but it became this whole culture war issue. Um and

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Speaker 1: Herzel is so horrified by this that he decided, you know,

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Speaker 1: basically the only option a Zionism because there's so much

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Speaker 1: anti Semitism. Theodore was a secular Zionist. Um. He was

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Speaker 1: not particularly religious. His advocacy for Zionism had really nothing

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Speaker 1: to do with the religion itself. It had to do

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Speaker 1: with more with kind of the anti Semitism that Jewish

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Speaker 1: people faced, and it was very much you know Earlier's

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Speaker 1: the kind of the modern manifestation of these ideas is

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Speaker 1: very much like, uh, a product of their time, given

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Speaker 1: kind of rising nationalist sentiment um in certain parts of

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Speaker 1: Europe and certain even certain parts of the real least

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Speaker 1: um under the Ottoman Empire. So it's it's kind of

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Speaker 1: like they're expressing their need for you know, self determination

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Speaker 1: and dignity through these this lens of like nationalism. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it's it's it is very time, Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: because that you're you're right, it is important to note

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Speaker 1: this is a global movement that's a big part of

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Speaker 1: like at the end of World War One. There's this

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Speaker 1: understanding of like the right of national self determination, which

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Speaker 1: is never evenly applied or even particularly honestly applied, but

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Speaker 1: that idea becomes increasingly common UM, and it is like

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Speaker 1: these these Jews in different European countries are seeing other

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Speaker 1: groups UM kind of establish a national identity and they

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Speaker 1: start to feel and it is very much motivated by

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Speaker 1: horrific repression because there's a lot of programs in this

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Speaker 1: period of time, right, there's a lot of murders, so

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Speaker 1: it is there's a there's a a strong kind of

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Speaker 1: defensive element to this. You can understand like why this

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Speaker 1: would be so appealing to people dealing with the kind

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Speaker 1: of ship that they're dealing in this period of time. UM.

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Speaker 1: And Nathan Milikowski was kind of on the more religious

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Speaker 1: side of the Zionist things, so Herzel is a more

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Speaker 1: influential figure in this time UM, but he's secular. Milikowski

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Speaker 1: is kind of influenced directly by radical Zionist rabbis UM.

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Speaker 1: But he still winds up because this is just kind

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Speaker 1: of the thing that is easiest to do at the time,

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Speaker 1: was preaching on the more secular end of Zionism. He

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Speaker 1: never served as a rabbi despite being ordained. Basically, as

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Speaker 1: soon as he gets out of the Yeshiva, he starts

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Speaker 1: traveling around the Russian Empire giving speeches to drum up

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Speaker 1: interest in the Zionist project. In nineteen o three, British Zionists,

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Speaker 1: supported by Herzel backed the Uganda Plan, which would have

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Speaker 1: established a new Jewish homeland in East Africa, presumably without

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Speaker 1: asking to people who already lived there. And again, you know,

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Speaker 1: this is a Jewish Zionist movement, but it's also British,

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Speaker 1: which is why they're saying, like, well, why couldn't we

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Speaker 1: just take a bunch of lantin Africa? Africa seems fine,

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Speaker 1: there's anybody they're um now that said, like, so you've

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Speaker 1: got this mix of really privileged, wealthy imperialists but also

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Speaker 1: a lot of desperate Russians who are like, yeah, Uganda

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Speaker 1: sounds a hell of a lot better than Russia right now?

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Speaker 1: Why not? Um? And this is uh kind of mixed

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Speaker 1: in with like. Part of why the Uganda Plan seems

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Speaker 1: like a good idea to a lot of people at

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Speaker 1: the time is that the the Ottoman Empire is pretty

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Speaker 1: strictly refusing to allow their Jewish population any kind of autonomy. Um,

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Speaker 1: of course, they're the Ottoman Empire. They're not really big

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Speaker 1: on autonomy, being an empire. Um, it's kind of any yeah,

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Speaker 1: for any minority group. Yeah, it's not like they're not

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Speaker 1: they're not even particularly um oppressing the Jews if you

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Speaker 1: want to, like, look at what they did to the

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Speaker 1: Armenians is much worse. So it's certainly like they're not

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Speaker 1: picking on Jewish people purely here. Um. So the Uganda

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Speaker 1: plan is really popular among Zionists for a while, but

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Speaker 1: it's not popular with Nathan Milikowski. He rejects the plan

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Speaker 1: specifically because he was afraid it might work and that

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Speaker 1: would stop Zionists from trying to retake the Holy Land. Now,

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Speaker 1: the Uganda Plan obviously fell apart before too long, and

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Speaker 1: after that happened, European Zionism split into two groups. There

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Speaker 1: were the political Zionists, who sought to convince one of

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Speaker 1: the great powers generally Great Britain to give them a

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Speaker 1: charter for a Jewish commonwealth and Palestine. And then there

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Speaker 1: were the practical Zionists, who thought that Jews should raise

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Speaker 1: money to immigrate to Zion and build a legal settlements

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Speaker 1: there and that that was the way to establish. One

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Speaker 1: side is like, if we convince a great power to

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Speaker 1: give us a state, that's the best option. The other

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Speaker 1: side is, well, we should just raise money, move their

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Speaker 1: start communities and then eventually have enough power to fight

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Speaker 1: for our independence. There. So those are kind of the

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Speaker 1: two chunks of the Zionist movement after the Uganda Plan

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Speaker 1: um in nineteen o seven at the eighth Zionist Congress,

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Speaker 1: these are like, you know, big yearly events where everybody

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Speaker 1: talks about how you're gonna how you're gonna do with

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Speaker 1: zionis um um. At the eighth point of these, Nathan

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Speaker 1: accuses delegates in favor of the Uganda Plan of quote

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Speaker 1: betraying all the generations um, which is there's this idea

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Speaker 1: um within we'll talk about this a couple of times

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Speaker 1: in the episode that Jewish people cannot cannot fight each

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Speaker 1: other for political reasons, but there's also this idea, and

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Speaker 1: Nathan is when he when he accuses the Uganda Plan

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Speaker 1: supporters betraying the generations, there's this idea that if you

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Speaker 1: take certain actions that are anti Zionist, you're not Jewish anymore. Really,

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Speaker 1: like that's that's a big part of this, and it's

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Speaker 1: gonna play a role in the assassination of an Israeli

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Speaker 1: Prime minister Um later on in this episode, Um and

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Speaker 1: Benjamin Netanya, who's very proud of his grandfather for this.

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Speaker 1: He keeps a picture of his grandpa at this conference

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Speaker 1: in his office. That's going to make a lot of

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Speaker 1: sense later on. So uh, Nathan, and you know, it

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Speaker 1: continues to be a kind of fringe Zionist figure during

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Speaker 1: this period. In nineteen ten, his wife gives birth to

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Speaker 1: a son, ben Zion net and Yahoo, Bibi's father um

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Speaker 1: And ben Zion is raised and kind of at this

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Speaker 1: point the most extreme wing of the Zionist movement. Nathan

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Speaker 1: supported the family in part by writing articles, which he

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Speaker 1: wrote under the pseudonym net and Yahoo, which is a

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Speaker 1: name from the Bible that means given by God. In

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventeen, the British government issued a public statement known

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Speaker 1: as the Balfour Declaration. This is because World War One

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Speaker 1: is going on the British, you're fighting. The British have

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Speaker 1: actually just gotten their asses kicked in a horrific battle

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Speaker 1: against the Ottomans in Gallipoli, and the Balfour Declaration basically

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Speaker 1: is Great Britain giving its support for the establishment of

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Speaker 1: a quote national home for the Jewish people in Palestine.

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Speaker 1: There were a number of reasons for this. One of

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Speaker 1: them was a hope that it would increase Jewish support

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Speaker 1: for the Allies in neutral countries because Britain's trying to

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Speaker 1: get everybody is possible in on their side of this war. Um,

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Speaker 1: and other of it is just kind of a you know,

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Speaker 1: there's they're fighting the Ottoman, so they're sticking a thumb

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Speaker 1: in the Ottoman saying like, this is what we're gonna

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Speaker 1: do when we beat you. The third reason is Balfour

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Speaker 1: was an anti semit Yeah, he really want to choose

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Speaker 1: out of Europe. Yes, And that is a that's a

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Speaker 1: big part of this, and it's I mean that goes

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Speaker 1: deep within kind of the anti Semitic movement, down to

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Speaker 1: the fact that before World War Two, among the Nazis,

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Speaker 1: there was the Madagascar Plan, which you can see is

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Speaker 1: kind of descended from the Uganda Plan, which is like

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Speaker 1: what if we move all the Jews to Madagascar, another

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Speaker 1: place where no one else lives, you know, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: always like the answer to the white supremacy is let's

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Speaker 1: push it on Africa. It will be fine. It's empty.

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Speaker 1: That is. That is the overwhelming attitude during this period. UM.

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Speaker 1: And there is there's a lot of people within the

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Speaker 1: British government who have resistance to the Balfour Declaration. UM.

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Speaker 1: A decent number of them recognize that there's no way

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Speaker 1: to push for the establishment of a Jewish state. UM

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Speaker 1: in Palace dined without a lot of bloodshed. UM. And

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Speaker 1: much of the anti Zionist resistance in Britain actually came

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Speaker 1: from British Jews. And I'm gonna quote from history dot

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Speaker 1: com here, led by Edwin Montebu, Secretary of State for

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Speaker 1: India and one of the first Jews to serve in

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Speaker 1: the cabinet. The anti Zionists feared that British sponsored Zionism

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Speaker 1: would threaten the status of Jews who had settled in

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Speaker 1: various European and American cities, and also encourage anti Semitic

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Speaker 1: violence in the country's battling Britain in the war, especially

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Speaker 1: within the Ottoman Empire. Pretty reasonable set of concerns, and

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Speaker 1: they would prove right, yeah, I mean yeah. If you

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Speaker 1: saw the Newsmax thing that came out today, No I didn't.

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Speaker 1: It was like a clip on Newsmax, where the broadcaster

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Speaker 1: is basically saying, like, you know, if you're a Jew

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Speaker 1: and you support Biden, like he is like, you know,

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Speaker 1: targeting your homeland if you're an American Jew, Yes, no Americans.

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Speaker 1: I mean it's it trickles down this this thought process,

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Speaker 1: like if you know, they're not fully citizens of wherever

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Speaker 1: there um because of this alien thing that's being formed outside. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you're right. That is incredibly toxic because it plays

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Speaker 1: directly into this idea that's critical to the Nazis that

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Speaker 1: Jews are not part of whatever community, They're a part

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Speaker 1: of their own separate thing. Yeah, it's it again, there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of there's it's it's interesting the Balfour Declaration,

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Speaker 1: which is so critical for the establishment of Zionism, is

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Speaker 1: invented by any come up with, announced by an anti Semite,

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Speaker 1: and opposed by a lot of Jewish people within Great Britain. Um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but obviously, um, you know a lot of people, particularly

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Speaker 1: guys like Nathan Milikowski, see the Balfour Declaration as a

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Speaker 1: huge shot in the arm, right, like now we have

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Speaker 1: a great power has finally backed us having our own

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Speaker 1: state in Palestine. Now in nineteen eighteen, World War One ended,

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Speaker 1: the Ottoman Empire gets broken up, and the League of Nations,

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Speaker 1: dominated by Britain and France, UH, splits up all of

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Speaker 1: these territories. You know, the Psykes, Pico agree it is,

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Speaker 1: you know all that stuff. Um, and Britain gets a

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Speaker 1: mandate over Palestine. UM. And this convinces Nathan to immigrate

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Speaker 1: to Palestine with his family. UM. And he's a number

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Speaker 1: of a lot of European Jewish people immigrate to Palestine

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Speaker 1: during this time because the British takeover and it's seen

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Speaker 1: as like they've just made the Balfour declaration, We're about

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Speaker 1: to get our own state. Uh. They didn't stay long though, UM,

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Speaker 1: because Nathan was soon sent by a figure in the

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Speaker 1: Zionist movement to the United States, where he was asked

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Speaker 1: to use his charismatic speaking skills to drum up funds

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Speaker 1: from wealthy American Jews. And this will be like the

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Speaker 1: major role the net and Yahoo's play in UH, in

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Speaker 1: Israeli politics and whatever up until bb becomes Prime Minister.

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Speaker 1: They spend the whole net Yahoo family spends more time

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Speaker 1: in the United States than they spend in Israel. UM.

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Speaker 1: It's just the way it goes um because they're good

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Speaker 1: at like talking and drumming up money um. Now, while

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Speaker 1: his wife joined him for part of the trip, ben

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Speaker 1: Zion and the other Net Yahoo kids, while they're not

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Speaker 1: netya who's yea grow up in boarding schools. Nathan was

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Speaker 1: unhappy in the United States, which he considered decadent and impure,

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Speaker 1: and he moved back to Palestine, but quickly isolated himself

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Speaker 1: from the Zionist movement, which had grown really secular and

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Speaker 1: socialist during this period. Again, it's not a religious movement

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Speaker 1: and it's very much a left wing movement UM in

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Speaker 1: this period, and kind of religious right wingers like Nathan

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Speaker 1: are not particularly popular. Nathan identified with the Missrahi movement,

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Speaker 1: which is kind of a religious fundamentalist Zionist movement UM,

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Speaker 1: and as a result he kind of gets ostracized from

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Speaker 1: the mainstream of of Zionism and he dies angry in

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Speaker 1: February of nineteen thirty five at age fifty five. Now

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Speaker 1: ben Zion was twenty five years old when his father died,

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Speaker 1: and he very quickly abandoned the name Milikowski for the

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Speaker 1: name his dad had used as a pseudonym Net and Yahoo,

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Speaker 1: so that's Babie's dad, ben Zion Net and Yahoo. In

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Speaker 1: the summer of nineteen twenty nine, when ben Zion was nineteen,

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Speaker 1: a dispute over prayer organizations at the Whaling Wall turned violent.

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Speaker 1: A hundred and thirty three Jews and a hundred and

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Speaker 1: six teen Arabs died in a wave of mass like

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Speaker 1: rioting violence. People are just murdering each other. Hundreds more

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Speaker 1: are injured. And as far as I can tell, the

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Speaker 1: crux of this, the Whaling Wall is sacred to both faiths.

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Speaker 1: It's the last remnant of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem

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Speaker 1: by Muslim traditions, the spot where Mohammed tight his steed

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Speaker 1: after his night flight from Mecca. I think I'm getting yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's ascendenced to Heaven. Yeah, yes, yeah, so it's it's

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Speaker 1: it's super sacred to both sides. The violence, though, was

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Speaker 1: about more like that's kind of and this is what

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Speaker 1: you see over and over again. There's a spark that

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Speaker 1: gets justified in history books, is this is why the

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Speaker 1: violence happened. But it's really a bunch of stuff building up. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's anger over um, the buffer declaration, it's anger

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Speaker 1: over um. What Arabs in pastin pastin and Arabs saw

427
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:55,480
Speaker 1: as UM like economic market marginalization UM at the hands

428
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:59,159
Speaker 1: not necessarily of you know, the religious Jewish communities that

429
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,280
Speaker 1: have been in in you know, the old city of

430
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:04,840
Speaker 1: Jerusalem for for hundreds of years, but more of these

431
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:08,400
Speaker 1: kind of newcomers that are UM kind of setting up

432
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 1: shop and only hiring amongst themselves and like being already

433
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,480
Speaker 1: quite discriminatory. And so there were these like marches during

434
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,359
Speaker 1: the UM There's like the Nabisad March and things like that.

435
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:21,040
Speaker 1: And like you said, it would be the spark for

436
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:26,399
Speaker 1: UM for for kind of like intercommunal violence. Yeah, yeah,

437
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,840
Speaker 1: And I I can't say again, this seems like a

438
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,040
Speaker 1: fairly fair reading of it to me. I'm interested in

439
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:34,600
Speaker 1: your thoughts on this UM in terms of talking about

440
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:37,840
Speaker 1: kind of the influence of this surge of violence the book,

441
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 1: BB writes, quote, uh, prior to this, very few Jews

442
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,440
Speaker 1: had fully realized how They're growing presence impacted the local Arabs.

443
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:49,360
Speaker 1: August drove home the reality that two nations were competing

444
00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 1: for the same piece of land. Before then, the Arabs

445
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,400
Speaker 1: living there had not factored into Zionists thinking. The main

446
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:56,720
Speaker 1: question had been how to convince the great powers carving

447
00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,159
Speaker 1: up the Middle East to grant the Jews sovereignty. The

448
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:01,720
Speaker 1: realization the Abs were going to fight, and that the British,

449
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:05,240
Speaker 1: despite Lord Balfour's grant promises, weren't going to automatically fulfill

450
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,720
Speaker 1: the Balfour Declaration towards the Zionist movement apart once again,

451
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 1: and it tears them into these two sides. One who

452
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,680
Speaker 1: thinks we need to reach an agreement with Great Britain

453
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:17,400
Speaker 1: and also reach an agreement with the Arabs who already

454
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,480
Speaker 1: lived in Palestine and had been for generations, and one

455
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 1: which says, funck that let's get a bunch of guns. Basically, Yeah,

456
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,639
Speaker 1: I mean I think that's pretty I think that's pretty accurate. Um.

457
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 1: You know, both the left wing what you characterize as

458
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,440
Speaker 1: kind of left wing secular Zionism and the religious Sionism

459
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,680
Speaker 1: kind of saw, like the secular ones saw are the

460
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:41,200
Speaker 1: Pastinian Arabs is like this backwards, you know, again from

461
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 1: like a white lens, like these are black words people

462
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 1: like they don't factor. Um. Hurtzel had like written a

463
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 1: novel like kind of encompassing his like Zionist ideas, where

464
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 1: like he wrote, like you know, they could be servers,

465
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,120
Speaker 1: they can you know, they could like be part of society,

466
00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:59,280
Speaker 1: like in this kind of fringe way, they can be

467
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 1: our workers. Um. And then the religious you know side

468
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 1: of designers, which again, like you said, I don't think

469
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:11,760
Speaker 1: was that will Um represented not in this period. Yeah. Yeah,

470
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:15,040
Speaker 1: I mean like religious Jews had existed in Palestine, that

471
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 1: Palestinian Jews had been in Palestine that they didn't really

472
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:22,160
Speaker 1: identify with like a Zionist movement. Um. But yeah, those

473
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,879
Speaker 1: guys also don't see, you know, necessarily the humanity of

474
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 1: other things. Um. So so yeah, I mean I think

475
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 1: that characterization what you just said is seems seems correct. Yeah,

476
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 1: they realize, oh, these people exist here, these people exist,

477
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,119
Speaker 1: and they're not just gonna let us take everything, and

478
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,200
Speaker 1: you get Yeah, I think as you characterize, you get

479
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:44,680
Speaker 1: the side that's like, well, we can live with these

480
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,199
Speaker 1: people as long as they're like second class citizens, and

481
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 1: the side that's like, well, we'll just shoot anybody who

482
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 1: disagrees with us, um. And critically, the we can shoot

483
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:55,680
Speaker 1: anyone who disagrees with a side is also willing to

484
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:57,879
Speaker 1: shoot the British, which is a huge part of like

485
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,119
Speaker 1: what is going to come next is this kind of

486
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:04,719
Speaker 1: um insurgent anger at the British for not immediately fulfilling

487
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 1: what the Balfour Declaration, what these people assumed it had promised. Um.

488
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:12,399
Speaker 1: So yeah, that's kind of like the next couple of

489
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 1: decades of of of the movement here um at age

490
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 1: nineteen and and obviously Ben zion is on the we

491
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 1: don't need to ask for anything side. We should take

492
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:23,359
Speaker 1: what we want, or we should take like we have

493
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 1: a right to take this and we're gonna we can

494
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,919
Speaker 1: take it by violence. Like That's that's the angle of

495
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 1: this that he's on. And at age nineteen he joins

496
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 1: a group called Hat Zohar, which is the World Union

497
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:37,520
Speaker 1: of Zionist Revisionists. Uh. And this is the one. This

498
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 1: is not the one, but this is a political faction

499
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:42,959
Speaker 1: of the Zionist movement who had basically decided number one,

500
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 1: we're going to ignore the fact that Palestinian Arabs already

501
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 1: owned this land. We're also going to say fuck you

502
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 1: to the British. These are like the most extreme and

503
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,360
Speaker 1: most aggressive chunk of the Zionist movement. They were founded

504
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 1: on the teachings of one influential Zionist, zeev Jabotinsky. Um,

505
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:04,120
Speaker 1: a secular Zionist who found inspiration in European nationalist movements

506
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,640
Speaker 1: um and including a number of like fascist movements. Um.

507
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 1: Like he was, really, he was, he was, And that's

508
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 1: a big part of revisionist Zionism prior to World War Two.

509
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 1: Is a lot of sympathy before, but for at least

510
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 1: kind of the way fascists are doing things because it's

511
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:25,880
Speaker 1: an ethno nationalist movement, and ethno nationalists stick together um,

512
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:30,400
Speaker 1: well to an extent with an external enemy. Yeah, yeah,

513
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 1: with an external enemy. Um yeah, you know who, what's

514
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 1: not an ethno nationalist movement. I certainly hope the products

515
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 1: that support this podcast. It's like, yeah, thank you, thank you.

516
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 1: That's that's that's what we strive for here. Um, all right,

517
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 1: we're back. Um. So yeah, you've got this. You've got

518
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 1: this guy, Jebatinsky um and who is who is a

519
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 1: hardcore secular zionist nationalist who is like, will fight the Arabs,

520
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 1: will fight the British, will fight anybody. Um Like that's

521
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 1: that's the only way to get what we want. And

522
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 1: he gets kicked out of the British mandate in Palestine

523
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 1: very quickly because he's urging that it be overthrown violently.

524
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 1: Um now. Jebatinsky is the early Zionist thinker who probably

525
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 1: influenced modern bbing net and Yahoo the most. He believed

526
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:35,440
Speaker 1: that for a nation to survive, it must quote keep apart, untrusting,

527
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 1: perpetually on guard a club at all times is the

528
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 1: only way to survive in this wolves fight, which is

529
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 1: basically Israelis domestic policy and torn policy today. A really

530
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 1: big fans of the lean yeah, um now. He believed

531
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 1: that uh. He rejected mysticism again, not a religious guy,

532
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 1: an excessive religia city, and insisted that strength and violence

533
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 1: is what would gain the Zionist movement the respect of

534
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 1: other nations. This could be done by taking the land

535
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 1: occupied by Arabs and defending it with a quote iron

536
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 1: wall of Jewish bayonets. Now. In that same essay, he

537
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 1: acknowledged that the forced settlement of Jews in Palestine would

538
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 1: be resisted quote any indigenous people will fight the settlers

539
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 1: as long as there is a spark of hope to

540
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 1: be rid of the foreign settlement. That is what the

541
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 1: Arabs of the Land of Israel are doing and will

542
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 1: continue to do as long as a spark of hope

543
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 1: lingers in their heart that they can prevent Palestine from

544
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:38,720
Speaker 1: becoming the land of Israel. So a lot of discussion

545
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 1: about Israel is a settler state and whatnot. It's important

546
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 1: to note that one of the founders of Israel, one

547
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 1: of the most important Zionists in the history of the movement,

548
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 1: explicitly described what they were doing as a settler attempt

549
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 1: to displace an indigenous indigenous people. He did was not

550
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 1: at all hiding that or trying to dress it up

551
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 1: like we are ming in from elsewhere and we are

552
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: forcing the indigenous people out and that is the goal. Yeah,

553
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 1: a lot of them were quite clear. Yeah, was real clear.

554
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 1: And Ben Ben Gurion was actually Jevitnski's main political enemy.

555
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 1: Which again, when we talk about the left wing and

556
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 1: the right wing of the Zionists and like the different

557
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 1: they all still are basically agreed on we're going to

558
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 1: come here and we're going to take what what we

559
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 1: what we want, what we need by force if necessary,

560
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 1: you know. Like that. There's not a lot of debate

561
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 1: on that. There's a lot of debate about how there's

562
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 1: a lot of debate about how to justify it. There's

563
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 1: a lot of debate about how the state that they

564
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 1: want to set up should look. They're basically they're agreed

565
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 1: on the basics. Um and Ben Gurion ran an organization

566
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 1: called Mapai, which was a kind of socialist e Zionist party.

567
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 1: UM and I don't know from from where what I'm reading,

568
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 1: these guys were bitter rivals. They didn't see them all

569
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 1: that different, though. When it came to what to do

570
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 1: with the people who'd been living in Palestine for generations,

571
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 1: Ben Gurion was an advocate of multiplying the settlements there

572
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 1: and old there were enough Jews in the area to

573
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 1: force his state. He wanted Jewish settlers to see themselves

574
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 1: as pioneers. Jebatinski wanted them to see themselves as soldiers,

575
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 1: and Ben Gurion called Jebatinski a fascist. Um like a

576
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 1: bunch of times, and that's not an unfair characterization. UM. Now,

577
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 1: ben zion Net and Yahoo was pretty marginalized in these discussions.

578
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 1: His most meaningful addition to the debate came during his

579
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 1: early years at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, when he

580
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 1: orchestrated the stink bombing of a British Zionist professor. Now,

581
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 1: this guy Norman Bentwich was controversial because he had been

582
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 1: the Mandate government's attorney general during the nineteen riots, and

583
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 1: Zionists saw him as being too neutral in this job.

584
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 1: Basically he was too fair to Arabs. Um. I don't

585
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 1: know that he was fair to them. I'm not saying

586
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 1: he was. That's how the zion can smell it. We

587
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 1: can smell it, yea. So they stink bomb this guy

588
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,959
Speaker 1: and it's like it's a big deal um within the movement,

589
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 1: and that's kind of ben Zion's he helps orchestrate that

590
00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 1: whole plan. No, what's funny about Hebrew University. Sorry this

591
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 1: is a random interjection, but it was founded with the

592
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 1: explicit support and approval and land from a prominent Postinian

593
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 1: family that Hassan's Um, who later become this like trope

594
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 1: amongst the Israeli propagandists that they're like, you know, all

595
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 1: anti Semites and all these things, but um, you know

596
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 1: the oh for a lot of Palestinians at the time,

597
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:30,960
Speaker 1: they they're like, yeah, it's another group. There's lots of

598
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 1: groups coming in like we can we can help, we

599
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 1: can help work with them. Um. I think that where

600
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 1: the convergence, like you were saying between like somebody like

601
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 1: mccarrey and somebody like Jermatinski. It came after the air

602
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 1: of revolt in the nineteen thirties, UM, and they were like, oh, okay,

603
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 1: they they're yeah like you said, but they're not they're

604
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 1: not going to go quietly. Um. And then people like

605
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 1: the Hassans and stuff, they're like, oh, this is actually

606
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 1: like a settler colonial movement. Um, we should maybe we

607
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 1: shouldn't be hoping. Yeah, maybe, and that I mean that's

608
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 1: heartbreaking too, because it suggests that there was a way

609
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 1: that you could have had a Jewish community in Palestine

610
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 1: without having a horrific settler apartheid state and violence. You

611
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 1: could have just had people living in Palestine that that

612
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,719
Speaker 1: that weren't at each other's throats. It wasn't ever been

613
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 1: a safe haven. It could have been a national state

614
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 1: that could have it could Yeah, there was actually that.

615
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 1: I think it was. The president of Hebrew Hebrew University

616
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 1: was like on record UM in the lead up to

617
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 1: the ninety eight saying like he disapproved of the plans

618
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 1: to expel arrows and like his his Zionism was are

619
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 1: more of a cultural Zionism. I don't necessarily know all

620
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:49,400
Speaker 1: the variances of Zionism, but but there there were other possibilities. Definitely. Yeah,

621
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 1: there's a decent number of people on both sides who

622
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 1: do not want violence or the forced displacement of people.

623
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 1: But they lose, you know, they that's the end, the

624
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: end of the the end result here um as everyone

625
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 1: knows if you've been watching hundreds of bombs fall on

626
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 1: Gaza Um. Yeah. In ninety four, Hitler seized total power

627
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 1: in Germany and that ended the dalliance some Zionists on

628
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,879
Speaker 1: the revisionist side of things had with fascism. Uh. In fact,

629
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 1: when one official with the Jewish Agency, which was the

630
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 1: organization that handled the immigration of Jews into Palestine, negotiated

631
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:25,360
Speaker 1: a deal with the Nazis that allowed German goods to

632
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:27,359
Speaker 1: be sold to Palestine, and the reason he did this

633
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 1: was to allow sixty Germans Jews to immigrate before the Holocaust.

634
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,279
Speaker 1: This guy was declared a traitor to his people by

635
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 1: the revisionists. They argued that he was not really Jewish

636
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,840
Speaker 1: and he was murdered. Um. Suspicion immediately fell upon it.

637
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:41,759
Speaker 1: And again this is this is going to be when

638
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:43,840
Speaker 1: we talk about ye Zak Rabine, this is going to

639
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 1: be like, this is a through line here. Jewish people

640
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 1: cannot kill each other for political reasons, as the attitude

641
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 1: the Zionists have. But if you do things that certain

642
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:55,319
Speaker 1: Zionists don't like, you're not really Jewish anymore and you

643
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,319
Speaker 1: can be murdered. Um. And this guy gets This guy

644
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 1: gets murdered, And I'm not gonna like, making a deal

645
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 1: with the Nazis is not something I ever feel too

646
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 1: fond about. But it's hard to see, like what options

647
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 1: this guy had. He's trying to get people out of

648
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,920
Speaker 1: this state before the fucking Holocaust happens. I don't know,

649
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:12,879
Speaker 1: Like I've never had to make a call that tough,

650
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 1: so I'm not gonna judge the dude. But he gets murdered,

651
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:17,800
Speaker 1: and he probably gets murdered by a group of extreme

652
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:22,279
Speaker 1: revisionist Zionists whose name in Hebrew literally literally translated to

653
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:27,839
Speaker 1: gang of thugs. Um. That's what they called themselves. Um. Now,

654
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 1: Ben Zion and his father believed these guys were innocent

655
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 1: because they didn't think Jewish people could murder each other

656
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 1: for political motives. And while the Gang of Thugs were

657
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 1: eventually acquitted, they almost certainly did it. Ben Zion, though,

658
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 1: came to believe that the allegations against them had been

659
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:47,839
Speaker 1: a blood libel against the revisionist cause by leftist Zionists.

660
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 1: And the blood libel we've talked about this in our

661
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 1: episodes on the anti Semitism. Is this old Christian idea

662
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 1: about like Jewish rabbi sacrificing Christian babies for anyway, the

663
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 1: fact that he's using this term against the left is

664
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:06,439
Speaker 1: really extreme. I mean like father, like son, right, Yeah,

665
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 1: his son later later does similar things. Yes, yes, absolutely,

666
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,840
Speaker 1: Angel Peiffer writes, quote. The episode left ben Zion convinced

667
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:16,799
Speaker 1: that there was nothing the left wing would not do

668
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,480
Speaker 1: to cast the Revisionists out of the Zionist camp. Now,

669
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 1: ben Zion saw his role within the Zionist movement as

670
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 1: that of a propagandist. He started in journalism, and he

671
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 1: lectured his colleagues that quote, the first condition for our

672
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 1: total victory is a combination of three factors propaganda, propaganda,

673
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 1: and propaganda. He became the editor for a series of

674
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,800
Speaker 1: revisionist Zionist newspapers and spent most of his time attacking

675
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 1: other Zionists for quote warping Zionism by seeking any kind

676
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 1: of accommodation with Arabs. And when I say accommodation, I'm

677
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:49,439
Speaker 1: not saying that it is something we would regard as fair,

678
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:53,360
Speaker 1: but it's something he regarded as as yielding too much. Yeah,

679
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:57,360
Speaker 1: which is at all um. Any democracy that was multi

680
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 1: ethnic he derided as a quote leftist dictate leadership. Um

681
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 1: yeah um. And none of his papers were very successful.

682
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 1: He is not popular at this moment. It does not

683
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 1: really catch on other than among a small fringe. He

684
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 1: was not even very popular among other revisionist Zionists. They

685
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 1: saw him as a milktoast academic them what you'd call

686
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:25,720
Speaker 1: the realist, real ass motherfucker's within the revisionist Zionist movement

687
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:28,400
Speaker 1: had actually formed a militia we might call them, a

688
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,319
Speaker 1: death squad called the I c L, who trained and

689
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:34,360
Speaker 1: actually carried out attacks on both British and Arab interests

690
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 1: in Palestine. These guys were terrorists. Um. I mean yeah,

691
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 1: that's the only way to look at it. Uh. They

692
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:44,360
Speaker 1: received some of their training and weaponry from the Polish government,

693
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 1: which was outrageously anti Semitic and basically saw the I

694
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 1: c L as a way to get rid of Polish

695
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 1: Jews by encouraging them to conquer Palestine. Poland is trying

696
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 1: to train Polish Jews as an army to conquer Palestine. Like,

697
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 1: that's the thing the Polish government does prior to the

698
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 1: outbreak of World War Two. Now, a big part of

699
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:05,400
Speaker 1: the I c L S Deal was to carry out

700
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:08,960
Speaker 1: reprisal attacks for real and for sometimes imagined attacks on

701
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 1: Jewish people in Palestine. Obviously there are actual attacks too.

702
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 1: I don't mean to say like that that doesn't happen, um,

703
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 1: But the i c L just spends a lot of

704
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 1: time killing Arab civilians. Um. Some of these murders were

705
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:22,799
Speaker 1: in response to other murders. Some of them were just

706
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,720
Speaker 1: murders in nineteen thirties. I mean, they're all just murders.

707
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 1: But some of them were just like this guy said

708
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:29,880
Speaker 1: a thing we don't like, let's fucking shoot him on

709
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 1: the street. Uh. In nineteen thirty six, a concerted series

710
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 1: of Arab protests broke out, an uprising really against Jewish

711
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 1: immigrants moving into the region, against the stated Zionist goals

712
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:43,719
Speaker 1: to dominate the area, and against violence from groups like

713
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 1: the I c L, and also against the British mandate,

714
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:49,920
Speaker 1: which both the Zionists and the Palestinians spend a lot

715
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:53,280
Speaker 1: of time fighting UM because it's a foreign power imposing

716
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 1: its will on the people there. Nobody really likes the

717
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,799
Speaker 1: Mandate UM. The goal of these protests was to get

718
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 1: the British government to a shually rescind the Balfour Declaration

719
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:06,360
Speaker 1: and to stop letting Jewish Europeans immigrate to Palestine. Obviously,

720
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 1: the revolt did not succeed, and part of why was

721
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:12,440
Speaker 1: the fact that the British Army collaborated with the Haganah,

722
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 1: which was a more moderate paramilitary unit operated by the

723
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 1: Zionists alongside like Ben Gurian Zionists. You've got the I

724
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 1: c L which are the revisionist Zionists under Jabotinsky, and

725
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,400
Speaker 1: you've got the Haganah, which is the more moderate Zionists

726
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 1: under Ben Gurion. But they both have their militias. The

727
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:32,840
Speaker 1: Haganah is larger and better organized and it works with

728
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:36,479
Speaker 1: the British Mandate to put down this Palestinian revolt, which

729
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:38,759
Speaker 1: is really the birth of the I d F. In

730
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,440
Speaker 1: a lot of ways, the current Israeli military because it

731
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,320
Speaker 1: does come directly out of the Haganah. And during this period,

732
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 1: the British because that and this is something the British

733
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 1: do everywhere, right, They do it in Kenya, they do

734
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 1: it all over Africa, they do it all over Southeast Asia.

735
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:55,359
Speaker 1: Wherever they colonize, they find local groups to organize an

736
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 1: arm to put down other local groups. UM. And I

737
00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:00,279
Speaker 1: think that's just how they see what they're doing with

738
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 1: the Haganah. I was like, these people are more willing

739
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:04,240
Speaker 1: to work with us, will give them guns and training

740
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 1: to put down these other people, will keep everybody split

741
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 1: up so nobody can overthrow us in in the mandate,

742
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 1: you know. And then there's more affinity obviously that they

743
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 1: with Europeans than absolution. A lot of these a lot

744
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 1: of the Hagana guys are Europeans, so they guess some

745
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:21,759
Speaker 1: of them are even British, so it's easier for them

746
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:24,759
Speaker 1: to interface. But the training and the arms that the

747
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,319
Speaker 1: hagan are received during this time are a big part

748
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:31,959
Speaker 1: of why in nineteen forty eight things work out for them, um,

749
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 1: because they have this huge head start, they have this

750
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 1: UM and that's the thing. I think there's a lot

751
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:39,759
Speaker 1: of focus when people talk about like why Israel has

752
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:42,680
Speaker 1: been so military lee successful on on just the weaponry

753
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:45,840
Speaker 1: they receive. It's not just the weaponry, it's also training,

754
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:49,919
Speaker 1: an organization and military doctrine that they receive from the

755
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 1: European powers prior to the outbreak of fighting, especially in

756
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:56,320
Speaker 1: the Very in nineteen forty eight. That's almost a bigger

757
00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:59,239
Speaker 1: part than any specific arms, although the arms that they get,

758
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 1: like particularly the Soviets, are a big part of it too.

759
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 1: I don't want to like say that it's not, but

760
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:06,279
Speaker 1: it's a lot of things. Um Now. The years of

761
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 1: violence that followed would establish what came to be a

762
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 1: pattern in Palestine. Jewish militias, benefiting from foreign arms, training

763
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:16,839
Speaker 1: and joint force operations, operated at a level of proficiency

764
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:19,920
Speaker 1: not matched by their indigenous opponents. And the fighting that

765
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 1: followed the revolt, two hundred and sixty two British soldiers died,

766
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:26,120
Speaker 1: three hundred Jewish soldiers died, and more than five thousand

767
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:29,879
Speaker 1: Arabs died. Um Now. Many of the Arabs killed were

768
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 1: reprisal murders carried out by the I c L. In

769
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 1: the early nineteen thirties. This was not super popular among Zionists.

770
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 1: It was a controversial issue. Even Jabotinsky, who was technically

771
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 1: on paper the leader of the i c L, but

772
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:46,240
Speaker 1: he had been exiled opposed a lot of these revenged killings,

773
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 1: but that did not stop them from happening, and the

774
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:51,359
Speaker 1: idea about whether or not it was acceptable to carry

775
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 1: out reprisal killings changed very rapidly. By nineteen thirty nine,

776
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:58,840
Speaker 1: the idea of organized reprisal murders against Palestinian Arabs was

777
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 1: common enough that David Gurion, who again is the moderate here,

778
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:06,359
Speaker 1: authorized the formation of a special Operations Unit to carry

779
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:10,399
Speaker 1: out reprisal murders against Palestinians, essentially a death squad. So

780
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:13,960
Speaker 1: the I c L's attitudes kind of become mainstreamed after

781
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 1: the Arab revolt um and by the time the revolt

782
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 1: died down, the British had revised their official stance on Zionism.

783
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 1: They were released a white paper that made everybody angry,

784
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 1: which is generally what the British do in this period.

785
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 1: Instead of supporting Jewish autonomy and Palestine, they now backed

786
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:32,359
Speaker 1: a bi national state in which Jews would make a

787
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:36,279
Speaker 1: permanent minority. Uh To further this, they capped Jewish immigration

788
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 1: into Palestine. This angered Zionists for obvious reasons, but it

789
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:44,279
Speaker 1: also piste off everybody else, because the Palestinian Arabs were

790
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:46,680
Speaker 1: being told by a foreign power, you're going to have

791
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:48,960
Speaker 1: to give these people some of the land you inhabitant,

792
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:51,480
Speaker 1: and inhabitants were still going to keep letting them in

793
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:54,919
Speaker 1: to take more stuff. And it's begin It's worth noting

794
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 1: that at every stage of this, the messiness of what

795
00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 1: was always going to be a complex situation is continue

796
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 1: really escalated because you've got this foreign power who is

797
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:05,319
Speaker 1: the ultimate power in the region, but they don't really

798
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 1: understand or give a ship they keep. They may They'll

799
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 1: make one decision one day, another decision the next, um,

800
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:14,840
Speaker 1: and it's kind of based on whatever people who are

801
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:18,799
Speaker 1: sitting back in London, uh get convinced of on that day.

802
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 1: Like it's that's a huge reason why this is so messy. Now.

803
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 1: The revisionist i L responded to this declaration by the

804
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 1: British with a series of terror attacks on British military

805
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:33,560
Speaker 1: basis and more murders of Arab civilians. The Haganah, for

806
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:36,360
Speaker 1: their part, launched an illegal immigration operation. So the i

807
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:40,480
Speaker 1: c L starts killing people, the Haganah starts like illegally

808
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:45,160
Speaker 1: like coyote ing people into Palestine. UM. Now, while this

809
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 1: is happening. Those Polish I. C. L. Guys over in

810
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 1: Europe are preparing themselves to invade. They're getting armed, they're

811
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:54,320
Speaker 1: getting trained, and right as that was about to maybe happen,

812
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:57,560
Speaker 1: World War two kicks off and things get a lot

813
00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 1: messier now. While all this ship was going on, ben

814
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:04,279
Speaker 1: Zion Net and Yah, who continued to be largely irrelevant.

815
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:07,320
Speaker 1: He was a permanently frustrated academic. He got into continual

816
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:10,520
Speaker 1: battles with more influential professors and historians at the university,

817
00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:13,080
Speaker 1: who he hated because he called the Marxists and some

818
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 1: of the more Marxists um. In the late nineteen thirties,

819
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:21,240
Speaker 1: ben Zion put together an anthology called Political Liberty Political

820
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:24,360
Speaker 1: Library Sorry, made up of writings of his favorite Zionists,

821
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:27,359
Speaker 1: all of whom were far right nationalists who wanted their

822
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:31,360
Speaker 1: Zionism free of socialism. One of ben Zion's favorite Zionists

823
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 1: was a guy named Max Nordau, who advocated for muscular Judaism.

824
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:39,840
Speaker 1: He also wrote an infamously homophobic book about the decline

825
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:43,920
Speaker 1: of Western civilization. Another of these thinkers was Israel Zangwill,

826
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:47,480
Speaker 1: who coined the phrase Palestine is a country without a people.

827
00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:50,759
Speaker 1: The Jews are a people without a country, which is

828
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 1: that became mainstream? Yeah, it really, that's why, Like that's

829
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:57,719
Speaker 1: the thing. He's a fringe in this period, this becomes

830
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:02,239
Speaker 1: the norm. Like ah um now Zangwill was a big

831
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:05,440
Speaker 1: advocate of the idea that Palestine was an invented country.

832
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 1: And if some of these guys sound kind of fashy,

833
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 1: it's because they absolutely were. Up until World War Two,

834
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 1: a lot of revisionist Zionists were very pro fascism. Even

835
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:17,840
Speaker 1: once the war started and Nazi war crimes against Jewish

836
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:20,760
Speaker 1: people ramped up, there were some Zionists who were willing

837
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:22,799
Speaker 1: to work with the Nazis. And I'm gonna quote from

838
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:27,240
Speaker 1: BB here because the story is fucking wild. Abraham's Stern

839
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 1: was the I c L commander charged with training a

840
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 1: force in Poland to fight an insurrection against the British

841
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:35,479
Speaker 1: and Palestine. He defied Jebatinsky and refused to lay down

842
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:37,960
Speaker 1: his arms. The Polish officers who had helped train and

843
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:39,920
Speaker 1: equip his men had been killed or captured by the

844
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:43,239
Speaker 1: German Wehrmacht, but that didn't deter Stern from trying to

845
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:46,840
Speaker 1: ally himself with the Third Reich. Like more radical revisionists

846
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:49,240
Speaker 1: who had admired fascism back in the twenties and thirties.

847
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:52,800
Speaker 1: Stern believed that despite the Nazis anti Semitism, their interests

848
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 1: could be aligned in a war against the British. His

849
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:58,120
Speaker 1: attempts to communicate with Berlin were ignored, but Stern stuck

850
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:00,799
Speaker 1: to his anti British policy a stually breaking with the

851
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:03,760
Speaker 1: i L. In August nineteen forty, he formed the Fighters

852
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:06,280
Speaker 1: for the Freedom of Israel, dismissively known by the British

853
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:11,320
Speaker 1: and many mainstream Zionists as the Stern Gang. Now Stern

854
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 1: is fringe. I want to note that it is the Obviously,

855
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:16,359
Speaker 1: the idea that you can work with the Nazis not

856
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:20,759
Speaker 1: popular among scientists, but it does happen. Like there are

857
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:23,960
Speaker 1: absolutely Zionis are like, well, we can work together. If

858
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:26,279
Speaker 1: they don't like, we don't want to be in Europe either,

859
00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:28,480
Speaker 1: we want to take over this territory. Maybe they'll work

860
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:31,879
Speaker 1: with us on that um. So that said, the vast

861
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:34,600
Speaker 1: majority of even revisionists saw where the wind was blowing.

862
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:38,280
Speaker 1: World War two started, i L operations against the British

863
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:41,239
Speaker 1: mandate were halted. Tens of thousands of ben Gurion's men

864
00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:43,920
Speaker 1: flocked to join the British Army to fight Germany. Ben

865
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:46,600
Speaker 1: Zion net and Yah, who was not at all involved

866
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:48,600
Speaker 1: in that he had been sent by revisionists to the

867
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:51,840
Speaker 1: United States, like his dad before him, to lobby American

868
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:54,720
Speaker 1: Jews and politicians to build support for an Israeli state.

869
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 1: Now and shl Feffer despicts him as fundamentally marginalized and

870
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:01,759
Speaker 1: largely irrelevant in this period. Ben Gurion was also in

871
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 1: the US around the same time and was much more effective.

872
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:07,280
Speaker 1: But Gurion was a savvy man, and he quickly realized

873
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 1: how to influence u S opinion in favor of the

874
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 1: Zionist movement, telling his colleagues back at home that quote,

875
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:16,239
Speaker 1: the way to acquire the American administration is acquiring the

876
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:20,240
Speaker 1: people the public opinion. Thus was born the Zionist strategy

877
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:24,080
Speaker 1: of hasbara or explanation, the use of public diplomacy to

878
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:26,279
Speaker 1: make the case for a Jewish state directly to the

879
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:29,400
Speaker 1: American people and trusting that this would lead to political

880
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 1: and military support. Now, Ben Zion was one of a

881
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:35,680
Speaker 1: crowd of activists who spent the war years trying to

882
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:39,360
Speaker 1: influence American politics. In June of nineteen forty four, he

883
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:41,960
Speaker 1: attended the RNC in Chicago, and he was one of

884
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:44,759
Speaker 1: many Zionists who secured a pro Zionist plank in the

885
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 1: party platform. Politics being what it is, the Republicans criticized

886
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:51,920
Speaker 1: Roosevelt for not insisting the British carry out the Balfour Declaration.

887
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:54,880
Speaker 1: This put This pushed the Democrats to adopt basically the

888
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:58,400
Speaker 1: same policy and marked the first successful joint action by

889
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 1: the different wings of Zionism. And they realize one great

890
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:04,600
Speaker 1: way to succeed is by pushing the Republicans and Democrats

891
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:07,279
Speaker 1: to try to top each other in supporting Zionism. You

892
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:10,919
Speaker 1: can get a lot done if you do that, um,

893
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:17,200
Speaker 1: which is basically how things work today. That's good. I

894
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 1: mean there's some changes, you know, there's there's some whispers

895
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 1: of hope. Yeah. I'm definitely seeing, like in just the

896
00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:31,520
Speaker 1: mass media reaction to what's happening now, a lot more

897
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:34,440
Speaker 1: criticism of the Israeli government, even from like there was

898
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:37,120
Speaker 1: again we just critique the New York Times. There was

899
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:40,239
Speaker 1: a horrifying New York Times article from a Palestinian that was,

900
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:42,960
Speaker 1: like the log line was if they cut the power,

901
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:47,080
Speaker 1: if Israel cuts the power while they still bomb our home. Um,

902
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:49,240
Speaker 1: which is like a question being asked by a child

903
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:53,319
Speaker 1: in Gaza. So like there's it's not as I don't know.

904
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:56,759
Speaker 1: I don't yeah, I see what you mean. Like it's

905
00:48:56,800 --> 00:49:00,600
Speaker 1: become so far removed from the whims of worst anyway

906
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 1: at this point. Yeah, yeah, it is. And it doesn't

907
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 1: seem like I think hoping that the billions of dollars

908
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:10,200
Speaker 1: in military aid Israel will stop. Um, I mean feels

909
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:16,319
Speaker 1: uh almost almost like a foolish hope. Um. But I

910
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 1: don't know. Fingers crossed. Yeah, I don't know. I'm not

911
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:24,120
Speaker 1: I'm not an American politics expert. So I just put

912
00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:28,200
Speaker 1: my head in the sand and pretend like things are okay. Yeah, yeah,

913
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 1: maybe things will be okay, especially now that we're going

914
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:39,040
Speaker 1: to adds. That makes all all better. Capitalism, capitalism solve

915
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:44,200
Speaker 1: this little Oh boy, you can't even finish the Sundens, No,

916
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:53,919
Speaker 1: I can't. Alright, we're back. So by late in World

917
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:56,520
Speaker 1: War Two, obviously the Holocaust is in full swing. It's

918
00:49:56,600 --> 00:49:59,640
Speaker 1: very public knowledge. And while tens of thousands of Jewish

919
00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:02,840
Speaker 1: people flocked Jewis Zionists had flocked to fight for the

920
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:05,719
Speaker 1: Allies at the start of the war. By nineteen forty four,

921
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:07,920
Speaker 1: a lot of them were furious about how little had

922
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:10,960
Speaker 1: been done to save the Jews of Europe. Menachem Began,

923
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:13,280
Speaker 1: the commander of the I c L in this period,

924
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 1: published a call for revolt in his group started attacking

925
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:20,399
Speaker 1: British infrastructure again before the end of the war. This

926
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:22,920
Speaker 1: forced been Gurian to have the Haganah attack the I

927
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:25,759
Speaker 1: c L, and in the purge that followed, many revisionists

928
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:29,560
Speaker 1: were sent to concentration camps operated by the British in Africa.

929
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:32,680
Speaker 1: Now begin made the decision not to fight back against

930
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:34,879
Speaker 1: the Haganah in order to avoid a civil war. Within

931
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:37,840
Speaker 1: the Zionist community, this is seen as having cemented the

932
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:41,200
Speaker 1: domination of Ben Gurion's Mapie Party in Like for the

933
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:43,760
Speaker 1: next you know, couple of decades. But it also fueled

934
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:46,480
Speaker 1: resentment of in the right wing Zionist movie this idea

935
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:49,240
Speaker 1: that we can't trust the left because they will always

936
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:53,480
Speaker 1: seek to purge us Um, even though the reason there anyway,

937
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:56,279
Speaker 1: they were doing terrorism against the British during World War Two.

938
00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:59,880
Speaker 1: That's why Ben Gurion got angry at them. So the

939
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:02,719
Speaker 1: war in Europe and the infighting in Palestine convinced ben

940
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:05,480
Speaker 1: Zion Netan Yahoo that the cause of Zionism was more

941
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:07,279
Speaker 1: or less hopeless. And a big part of this is

942
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:09,479
Speaker 1: he feels like all of the people who were going

943
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:13,640
Speaker 1: to conquer Palestine for Israel got murdered by the Nazis

944
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:18,440
Speaker 1: um and so he kind of loses hope in Zionism

945
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:21,920
Speaker 1: in this period and increasingly focuses on his own academic career.

946
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:24,520
Speaker 1: For a while, he seemed to be right. At the

947
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:27,080
Speaker 1: end of the war, President Truman demanded that one hundred

948
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:30,480
Speaker 1: thousand Holocaust survivors be allowed to immigrate to Palestine. The

949
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:33,280
Speaker 1: British opposed this, arguing that it would upset the balance

950
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 1: of power and lead to another Arab revolt, and this

951
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:39,880
Speaker 1: led to another brief period of collaboration between Ben Gurion's Haganah,

952
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 1: the I c L and the Stern Gang, who were

953
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:44,799
Speaker 1: the kind of Nazi guys. Now for the first time,

954
00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:48,440
Speaker 1: all three paramilitary organizations worked together under a joint command

955
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 1: and launched a massive sabotage campaign against the British. While

956
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 1: they battled the British and Palestine and international pr campaign

957
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 1: was launched by other Zionists using the imagery of the

958
00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:01,080
Speaker 1: Holocaust to spark sympathy for the creation of a Jewish state.

959
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:05,280
Speaker 1: The sabotage campaign reached its peak in July twenty, nineteen

960
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:07,960
Speaker 1: forty six with an act of terrorism. The i c

961
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:10,920
Speaker 1: L filled milk cans with explosives and blew up the

962
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:14,359
Speaker 1: King David Hotel, killing ninety one people, most of whom

963
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:17,440
Speaker 1: were civilians. This prompted the Haganah to break with the

964
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:20,320
Speaker 1: I c L, who kept doing terrorism alongside the Stern

965
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:23,680
Speaker 1: Gang for a while. Now it was foreign lobbying rather

966
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:28,799
Speaker 1: than insurgency that finally did the trick. On February fourteenth, seven,

967
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:31,719
Speaker 1: the UN Special Committee on Palestine delivered a report that

968
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 1: suggested an into the British Mandate and the partitioning of

969
00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:38,720
Speaker 1: Palestine into two states. This made most Zionists pretty happy,

970
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:41,879
Speaker 1: but the Palestinian Arabs rejected it. Ben zion net Yah,

971
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:44,960
Speaker 1: who also rejected it. He authored a full page ad

972
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:46,960
Speaker 1: that ran in the New York Times and was titled

973
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 1: Partition will not solve the Palestine Problem. His argument was

974
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:54,600
Speaker 1: that allowing Arabs to maintain any land that Jewish people

975
00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:56,480
Speaker 1: had ever lived on at any point in the past

976
00:52:56,680 --> 00:52:59,320
Speaker 1: would doom the great Zionist dream like that's his argument

977
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:03,080
Speaker 1: is um, we we we should have it all. Partitioning

978
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:06,080
Speaker 1: isn't fair because we don't get at all. Um. In

979
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:09,200
Speaker 1: November of nine seven, the partition plan was approved by

980
00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:12,040
Speaker 1: a yuan vote. When Ben Gurien announced the establishment of

981
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:14,399
Speaker 1: the State of Israel in the Tel Aviv Museum, ben

982
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:16,960
Speaker 1: Zion Netanyahu was still in New York. He and his

983
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:19,840
Speaker 1: fellow revisionists were furious and the viciousness with which the

984
00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:22,080
Speaker 1: I c L had conducted itself, and sure that they

985
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:26,279
Speaker 1: were completely cut out of the new government. Now most

986
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:29,640
Speaker 1: people probably know, the establishment of the modern nation of

987
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:33,240
Speaker 1: Israel was immediately followed by a big, ugly war. Armies

988
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:35,919
Speaker 1: from five Arab nations, alongside tens of thousands of local

989
00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:40,000
Speaker 1: Palestinian fighters went up against the Haganah UH and the

990
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:43,880
Speaker 1: Haganah one. This isn't a military history podcast. Their defeat

991
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:47,560
Speaker 1: is a mix of factors, poor coordinations between these different

992
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:51,399
Speaker 1: Arab nations, political corruption, hesitancy among a lot of these

993
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:54,799
Speaker 1: countries to commit significant forces to the Palestinians. A lot

994
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:57,960
Speaker 1: of token forces. Yeah, yeah, a lot of token forces. Right,

995
00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:01,040
Speaker 1: it's not you hear five armies and fought against the

996
00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:02,920
Speaker 1: Haganah and it seems like one thing, but it's like no,

997
00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:06,600
Speaker 1: a lot of them were just kind of doing the minimum,

998
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:09,400
Speaker 1: you know. Um. But a big factor is that the

999
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:11,600
Speaker 1: Haganah had been trained and armed by one of the

1000
00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:14,240
Speaker 1: most successful by two of the most successful militaries on earth,

1001
00:54:14,239 --> 00:54:17,719
Speaker 1: because Stalin is a huge backer of the State of

1002
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:22,080
Speaker 1: Israel and the USSR since a shipload of weaponry um

1003
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:25,239
Speaker 1: to support the Haganah. Now that will change later on,

1004
00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:27,960
Speaker 1: but in the like the crucial early hours the Soviet

1005
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:31,400
Speaker 1: Union is is kind of full throated behind the Haganah

1006
00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:35,239
Speaker 1: and the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine, and

1007
00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:38,799
Speaker 1: the violent expulsion of Palestinians that followed Israeli victory has

1008
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:42,319
Speaker 1: come to be known as the nakba or catastrophe. Catastrophe, right,

1009
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:47,399
Speaker 1: that's it doesn't mean catastrophe, but it refers to not

1010
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:50,400
Speaker 1: the violent expulsion after, it was the volent expulsion during

1011
00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:55,040
Speaker 1: yeah sorry sorry, during in yeah, during these events, yeah yeah, yeah,

1012
00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:58,759
Speaker 1: while this is happening. Um. And so I'm gonna try

1013
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:01,839
Speaker 1: to give an overview this. Before the UN resolution and

1014
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:05,680
Speaker 1: all of the fighting, Jews in Palestine had owned about

1015
00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:08,080
Speaker 1: six percent of the land and made up thirty two

1016
00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:12,000
Speaker 1: percent of the population after partitioning. The partitioning was set

1017
00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:15,080
Speaker 1: to give them fifty five percent of the land of

1018
00:55:15,080 --> 00:55:18,160
Speaker 1: the population, while Palestinians, who made up sixty percent of

1019
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:20,520
Speaker 1: the population, would be given forty of the lands. The

1020
00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:22,799
Speaker 1: number one. You can see why the Palestinians were really

1021
00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:25,520
Speaker 1: angry at the U N resolution because it's like, why

1022
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:29,400
Speaker 1: are we not getting the like like this is like

1023
00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:32,600
Speaker 1: blatantly unfair, um, but it gets a lot worse. Like again,

1024
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:34,520
Speaker 1: that's just how things were supposed to be set up

1025
00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:38,960
Speaker 1: by the UN resolution. During the fighting in the Haganah

1026
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:44,960
Speaker 1: executed Planned Dollet, a strategy aimed at depopulating Palestinian population centers.

1027
00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:48,280
Speaker 1: The goals of Planned Dalet were to take the northern border,

1028
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:52,480
Speaker 1: control the entire coast, and clear out Palestinian towns and

1029
00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:56,600
Speaker 1: cities between Jerusalem and Jaffa on the coast. Planned Dalet

1030
00:55:56,600 --> 00:56:00,440
Speaker 1: called for quote destruction of villages, setting fire to blowing

1031
00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:03,400
Speaker 1: up and planting mines in the debris, especially those population

1032
00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:07,360
Speaker 1: centers which are difficult to control continuously. In the violence

1033
00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:11,120
Speaker 1: of Planned out and estimated fifteen thousand Palestinians were killed,

1034
00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:14,560
Speaker 1: four hundred and eighteen towns and villages were ethnically cleansed

1035
00:56:14,560 --> 00:56:18,360
Speaker 1: off the map. Seven to eight hundred thousand Palestinians were displaced.

1036
00:56:18,600 --> 00:56:21,239
Speaker 1: At the end of it, seventy eight percent of Palestinian

1037
00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:24,080
Speaker 1: land was under Israeli control, which is a loss of

1038
00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:26,480
Speaker 1: about four point three million acres based on what the

1039
00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:29,319
Speaker 1: u N resolution said they were supposed to have. So

1040
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:32,759
Speaker 1: at the time, the Haganah coordinated with many of the

1041
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:35,360
Speaker 1: militias that were seen as right wings, including Stern and

1042
00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:39,839
Speaker 1: the groups. Um, sorry, the Stern and the yea yeah,

1043
00:56:40,120 --> 00:56:44,360
Speaker 1: the other ones yeh and and like committed massacres like

1044
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:49,480
Speaker 1: at the scene that's like the Masters, Yeah, the major

1045
00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:52,800
Speaker 1: one that is pretty well known as the massacre. Yeah.

1046
00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:55,880
Speaker 1: And it's I mean again, something like fifteen thousand people,

1047
00:56:55,920 --> 00:56:59,040
Speaker 1: mostly civilians killed during this period. It's it's a it's

1048
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:02,120
Speaker 1: a massive active nick cleansing like that is the start

1049
00:57:02,200 --> 00:57:04,680
Speaker 1: of And that's the thing I never learned about in school.

1050
00:57:04,719 --> 00:57:08,719
Speaker 1: I just learned, um oh, the mean Arab powers all

1051
00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:11,040
Speaker 1: tried to wipe out Israel at the same time, and

1052
00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:15,239
Speaker 1: they lost. I didn't. And then another myth was yeah yeah,

1053
00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:17,720
Speaker 1: and then and then another myth was that, well, okay,

1054
00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:19,720
Speaker 1: they did kill lots of people, but it just happened

1055
00:57:19,720 --> 00:57:22,800
Speaker 1: in the course of the fighting. But it was definitely

1056
00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:28,080
Speaker 1: premeditated and these people were not armed, These were villagers.

1057
00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:32,440
Speaker 1: These were villages wiped out. And that argument, the idea

1058
00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:34,320
Speaker 1: that like, well, yeah it was terrible, but it just

1059
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:36,720
Speaker 1: happened during the fighting and war is ugly. That's the

1060
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:39,720
Speaker 1: same argument that the Turks make about the Armenian genocide,

1061
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:41,920
Speaker 1: Like that's why they deny that there was no There

1062
00:57:42,040 --> 00:57:44,800
Speaker 1: was fighting on both sides. Yeah, well one side got

1063
00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:47,360
Speaker 1: all of their civilians massacred and the other side didn't,

1064
00:57:47,440 --> 00:57:50,480
Speaker 1: so like yeah, and one side was like a state

1065
00:57:50,680 --> 00:57:52,840
Speaker 1: and you know, well not a state, but like you know,

1066
00:57:52,920 --> 00:57:56,680
Speaker 1: hadn't becoming a state. Yeah. I was talking about the

1067
00:57:56,720 --> 00:58:01,959
Speaker 1: Turks on that one, but yeah, y yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah. Um. Now,

1068
00:58:02,040 --> 00:58:04,120
Speaker 1: up to this point, the net ya Who family had

1069
00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:06,520
Speaker 1: again been bit players in the Zionist movement. A lot

1070
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:09,160
Speaker 1: of people, especially today BB and the net Who family

1071
00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:11,640
Speaker 1: tries to really play up the role that Ben Zion

1072
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:16,600
Speaker 1: and that that Nathan played. Angel Feffer, who knows a

1073
00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:18,360
Speaker 1: lot more about the history of Zionism than I do,

1074
00:58:19,720 --> 00:58:22,360
Speaker 1: makes a pretty convincing case that they were very much

1075
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:25,640
Speaker 1: minor figures, and part because nobody really liked ben Zion.

1076
00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:27,440
Speaker 1: He's kind of a dick. He seems like he was

1077
00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:30,600
Speaker 1: just like even to other right wing Zionists, a lot

1078
00:58:30,640 --> 00:58:32,160
Speaker 1: of them just saw him as kind of an asshole,

1079
00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:35,640
Speaker 1: Like nobody really wanted to work with him on ship,

1080
00:58:35,880 --> 00:58:38,200
Speaker 1: and he had a really inflated opinion of himself, like

1081
00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:40,200
Speaker 1: he was kind of there's I don't know, I'm not

1082
00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:43,080
Speaker 1: going to diagnose a guy, but he he he was

1083
00:58:43,120 --> 00:58:45,560
Speaker 1: always frustrated by the fact that his career was not

1084
00:58:45,640 --> 00:58:47,080
Speaker 1: as great as he wanted it to be, and he

1085
00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:49,640
Speaker 1: was not as influential as he wanted to be, and

1086
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:53,080
Speaker 1: he stays even after nineteen when the State of Israel

1087
00:58:53,120 --> 00:58:55,880
Speaker 1: comes into being, ben Zion remains convinced that the whole

1088
00:58:55,920 --> 00:58:57,880
Speaker 1: project is doomed. And I think the big reason why

1089
00:58:57,960 --> 00:59:00,080
Speaker 1: is because it hadn't happened exactly how he thought that

1090
00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:11,560
Speaker 1: should happen. Clearly, it won't work if they didn't academic yeah, absolutely, um.

1091
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:14,200
Speaker 1: So he and his family still left the United States

1092
00:59:14,240 --> 00:59:16,440
Speaker 1: and moved to Tel Aviv to give, you know, give

1093
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:18,960
Speaker 1: it a go, And it was there on October twenty three,

1094
00:59:19,120 --> 00:59:22,120
Speaker 1: nineteen forty nine, that Benjamin net And Yahoo was born

1095
00:59:22,200 --> 00:59:24,160
Speaker 1: and he is He is the first and so far

1096
00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:27,280
Speaker 1: only Prime Minister of Israel who was actually born in

1097
00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:30,920
Speaker 1: Israel while Israel was a political entity. Um And he

1098
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:33,800
Speaker 1: was born a citizen of both Israel and the United States.

1099
00:59:34,080 --> 00:59:37,680
Speaker 1: His family quickly took to calling him b B. Now

1100
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:40,280
Speaker 1: it was not I don't know. It doesn't sound like

1101
00:59:40,320 --> 00:59:43,480
Speaker 1: an overly happy home to me. His father was miserable

1102
00:59:43,520 --> 00:59:47,240
Speaker 1: in Israel because his his academic career, language and obscurity.

1103
00:59:47,400 --> 00:59:49,640
Speaker 1: He continued to do research in academic writing, but he

1104
00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:51,440
Speaker 1: was locked out of prominence. They didn't have a lot

1105
00:59:51,520 --> 00:59:54,160
Speaker 1: of money. They heavily relied on family, you know, in

1106
00:59:54,240 --> 00:59:57,200
Speaker 1: order to to to make ends meet um and the

1107
00:59:57,280 --> 01:00:00,800
Speaker 1: Israeli far right, which is itself marginalized in this period,

1108
01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:04,280
Speaker 1: locks him out from any kind of meaningful position because

1109
01:00:04,320 --> 01:00:07,880
Speaker 1: he hadn't been an insurgent right menach and Began, the

1110
01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:09,880
Speaker 1: former head of the i c L is kind of

1111
01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:11,720
Speaker 1: the leader of the right in this period, and he

1112
01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:13,880
Speaker 1: had no use for anybody who hadn't been in the

1113
01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:16,640
Speaker 1: i c L. Like that's really the dominant part of

1114
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:19,240
Speaker 1: the Israeli right in the start, as like anybody who

1115
01:00:19,280 --> 01:00:21,800
Speaker 1: had been fighting and ben Zion hadn't picked up a gun,

1116
01:00:21,840 --> 01:00:25,200
Speaker 1: so fuck him now. While ben Zion labored in frustration

1117
01:00:25,240 --> 01:00:28,160
Speaker 1: and baby Benjamin did you know, baby stuff Menach and

1118
01:00:28,200 --> 01:00:31,800
Speaker 1: began began to knit together a coalition of secular right wingers,

1119
01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:35,000
Speaker 1: religious extremists, and Jews who had been marginalized by the

1120
01:00:35,040 --> 01:00:38,439
Speaker 1: majority of the Paie Party. One day this coalition would

1121
01:00:38,440 --> 01:00:41,520
Speaker 1: be Benjamin Netanyah, who's base of power In the late

1122
01:00:41,560 --> 01:00:44,160
Speaker 1: nineteen forties and early fifties, though Benjamin and his older

1123
01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:47,120
Speaker 1: brother Jonathan were just two kids, Yoni and BB to

1124
01:00:47,200 --> 01:00:50,040
Speaker 1: their family wandering around to Jerusalem that was still war

1125
01:00:50,120 --> 01:00:52,680
Speaker 1: racked and partitions. So Israel is not in control of

1126
01:00:52,720 --> 01:00:55,400
Speaker 1: all of Jerusalem at this point. Um. And it's so

1127
01:00:55,440 --> 01:00:59,120
Speaker 1: there's like military checkpoints, there's barbed wire fences, there's land

1128
01:00:59,120 --> 01:01:02,440
Speaker 1: mines all around. Bitten stuff, It's it's a it's it

1129
01:01:02,520 --> 01:01:05,760
Speaker 1: seems like a pretty dangerous place. BB recalled as an

1130
01:01:05,800 --> 01:01:09,480
Speaker 1: adult not feeling that um, not really feeling under siege,

1131
01:01:09,520 --> 01:01:11,919
Speaker 1: but feeling as if his life had to exist within

1132
01:01:12,000 --> 01:01:14,840
Speaker 1: quote sharp borders. Like one of his early memories is

1133
01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:16,640
Speaker 1: his mom taking him out by the hand to show

1134
01:01:16,720 --> 01:01:18,400
Speaker 1: him where all the land mines were it to be

1135
01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:20,560
Speaker 1: like these are areas where you can play, these are

1136
01:01:20,600 --> 01:01:24,320
Speaker 1: areas where you can't um bb and Joni's home life

1137
01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:27,240
Speaker 1: was quiet because ben Zion could not abide noise, so

1138
01:01:27,320 --> 01:01:29,840
Speaker 1: his wife and his children had to be silent whenever

1139
01:01:29,840 --> 01:01:32,280
Speaker 1: he was writing or reading, which was pretty much always.

1140
01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:35,040
Speaker 1: They relied on relatives for money, and ben Zion would

1141
01:01:35,080 --> 01:01:37,600
Speaker 1: later blame his failures in academia in this period on

1142
01:01:37,640 --> 01:01:42,320
Speaker 1: a bias against conservatives within the Hebrew University. Now the reality, yes,

1143
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:45,440
Speaker 1: Angel Feffer points out a lot of right wing academics

1144
01:01:45,440 --> 01:01:48,440
Speaker 1: succeeded during this period of time. He just seems to

1145
01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:50,880
Speaker 1: have not been very great. He sucked at working with people,

1146
01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:55,440
Speaker 1: He couldn't compromise, people didn't like him. It wasn't his politics.

1147
01:01:55,440 --> 01:01:58,960
Speaker 1: He was kind of a dick um. That's the argument

1148
01:01:59,040 --> 01:02:04,680
Speaker 1: I think angels may kind of in more history graphical terms. Now,

1149
01:02:04,960 --> 01:02:07,960
Speaker 1: Yoni and Beeby loved Israel as much as their father didn't.

1150
01:02:08,320 --> 01:02:10,120
Speaker 1: Yoni was three years older. He'd been born in the

1151
01:02:10,200 --> 01:02:12,560
Speaker 1: United States. He was tall and thin, while Babie was,

1152
01:02:12,640 --> 01:02:15,640
Speaker 1: according to one relative, fat like a ball. He was

1153
01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:18,560
Speaker 1: seven years old in nineteen fifty six when Israel joined

1154
01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:21,640
Speaker 1: with France and Britain in a secret packed to invade Egypt.

1155
01:02:22,080 --> 01:02:24,800
Speaker 1: Um there's we're not going to give any of this

1156
01:02:24,920 --> 01:02:27,640
Speaker 1: as much history as it needs for a complex understanding.

1157
01:02:27,640 --> 01:02:31,720
Speaker 1: The basics are that Um, the Egyptian president who had

1158
01:02:31,760 --> 01:02:34,720
Speaker 1: come to power, tried to nationalize that had nationalized the

1159
01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:37,040
Speaker 1: Suez Canal, which took it out of the control of

1160
01:02:37,040 --> 01:02:41,920
Speaker 1: the British and French companies. UH. Israel like wanted more

1161
01:02:41,960 --> 01:02:44,280
Speaker 1: of a buffer against Egypt, so they were willing to

1162
01:02:44,280 --> 01:02:45,560
Speaker 1: work with the British and the French, and they wind

1163
01:02:45,600 --> 01:02:49,200
Speaker 1: up conquering the entire Sinai Peninsula and a big chunk

1164
01:02:49,320 --> 01:02:52,200
Speaker 1: of the Israeli like the right in the center are like,

1165
01:02:52,240 --> 01:02:54,720
Speaker 1: we're going to keep this forever, while Britain and France

1166
01:02:54,720 --> 01:02:59,120
Speaker 1: are like, no, you're not. But at the same time

1167
01:02:59,120 --> 01:03:01,480
Speaker 1: they don't do any thing in this period to stop it.

1168
01:03:01,720 --> 01:03:04,720
Speaker 1: Um and babies like that. You know, there's a war

1169
01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:06,840
Speaker 1: during this period. It's a pretty scary time to be

1170
01:03:06,880 --> 01:03:10,040
Speaker 1: a kid. Babies memories of it are, in his words,

1171
01:03:10,040 --> 01:03:13,160
Speaker 1: sharp but not traumatic. His main memory is sticking pieces

1172
01:03:13,160 --> 01:03:15,160
Speaker 1: of tape to the windows in his room so that

1173
01:03:15,200 --> 01:03:18,320
Speaker 1: if Jerusalem was shelled, the windows wouldn't shatter from the

1174
01:03:18,320 --> 01:03:21,400
Speaker 1: book Baby Quote. His main memory is of the father

1175
01:03:21,480 --> 01:03:24,320
Speaker 1: of a neighboring family returning from the Sinai battlefield in

1176
01:03:24,360 --> 01:03:27,600
Speaker 1: a dusty jeep, distributing chocolate bars to the children he

1177
01:03:27,640 --> 01:03:30,120
Speaker 1: had bought them in the Egyptian town of Larish, the

1178
01:03:30,200 --> 01:03:32,560
Speaker 1: site of someone else's father, who, like nearly all the

1179
01:03:32,560 --> 01:03:35,120
Speaker 1: other fathers of his friends, was contributing to the war effort,

1180
01:03:35,120 --> 01:03:37,400
Speaker 1: in this case in uniform, while his own father remained

1181
01:03:37,440 --> 01:03:40,840
Speaker 1: home must have rankled. So Bebe and Yoni are kind

1182
01:03:40,840 --> 01:03:43,160
Speaker 1: of frustrated that their dad is an out there fighting,

1183
01:03:43,440 --> 01:03:45,680
Speaker 1: you know. They're like, why, like all the other dads

1184
01:03:45,680 --> 01:03:50,520
Speaker 1: are doing cool army stuff, why aren't you, Um aren't you? Yeah,

1185
01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:54,200
Speaker 1: why aren't you shooting anybody? Pap? And for the most part,

1186
01:03:54,400 --> 01:03:58,040
Speaker 1: regular warfare, because there's a bunch of constant skirmishes, even

1187
01:03:58,080 --> 01:04:00,800
Speaker 1: when there aren't like the big military act, there's pretty

1188
01:04:00,840 --> 01:04:04,120
Speaker 1: regularly fighting. And it's not all happening in the recognized

1189
01:04:04,160 --> 01:04:06,840
Speaker 1: borders of Israel. A lot of it is Israeli troops

1190
01:04:06,840 --> 01:04:09,600
Speaker 1: fighting in Egypt, fighting in Syria. Um. And that all

1191
01:04:09,680 --> 01:04:12,280
Speaker 1: kind of blends into the childhood of Bibi and Yoni.

1192
01:04:12,760 --> 01:04:16,760
Speaker 1: Uh Yoni was kind of the leader. Bib absolutely adored

1193
01:04:16,840 --> 01:04:19,840
Speaker 1: his brother, followed him everywhere. The two boys were social,

1194
01:04:19,920 --> 01:04:22,600
Speaker 1: and Yoni wound up gathering a gang of neighborhood kids

1195
01:04:22,600 --> 01:04:25,800
Speaker 1: together around him. Uh the Netanya who's stuck out because

1196
01:04:25,840 --> 01:04:28,760
Speaker 1: they wore American clothing which was sent by ben Zion's

1197
01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:32,480
Speaker 1: brother in the us UH. They lived under strict family discipline, though,

1198
01:04:32,520 --> 01:04:35,280
Speaker 1: and Yoni kind of chafed against the discipline of ben Zion.

1199
01:04:35,400 --> 01:04:38,680
Speaker 1: He regularly broke rules in order to test boundaries. Bibi

1200
01:04:38,800 --> 01:04:42,200
Speaker 1: did not. Bb obeyed his father. Once, when they were

1201
01:04:42,200 --> 01:04:45,920
Speaker 1: out exploring abandoned Palestinian homes and gardens, Yoni attempted to

1202
01:04:45,920 --> 01:04:48,600
Speaker 1: hoist his little brother up over a fence. Bibe was

1203
01:04:48,640 --> 01:04:51,320
Speaker 1: too heavy and he fell and split open his upper lip,

1204
01:04:51,440 --> 01:04:53,280
Speaker 1: leaving him with a scar that he attempts to hide

1205
01:04:53,320 --> 01:04:56,240
Speaker 1: in all of his public photographs today. The family now

1206
01:04:56,280 --> 01:04:58,480
Speaker 1: claims that the scar was caused by an electric burn

1207
01:04:58,520 --> 01:05:00,560
Speaker 1: when he was too and the re sason they lie

1208
01:05:00,560 --> 01:05:03,440
Speaker 1: about this is that today Yoni is like a sainted

1209
01:05:03,480 --> 01:05:06,240
Speaker 1: war hero and admitting that he dropped his younger brother

1210
01:05:06,280 --> 01:05:11,680
Speaker 1: would be like a sin essentially like um. Well, we'll

1211
01:05:11,720 --> 01:05:14,479
Speaker 1: talk about the cult that has kind of formed around

1212
01:05:14,600 --> 01:05:16,960
Speaker 1: Yoni later Um, and the reality is that like, yeah,

1213
01:05:17,000 --> 01:05:20,760
Speaker 1: they were kids and he dropped his brother, like whatever. Um.

1214
01:05:20,800 --> 01:05:22,640
Speaker 1: The net and Yah who has moved back to Israel

1215
01:05:22,680 --> 01:05:25,240
Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty eight, so they leave for a while.

1216
01:05:25,320 --> 01:05:26,960
Speaker 1: They moved back. They do this a couple of times

1217
01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:28,800
Speaker 1: when the nut and Yah who's your kids or sorry?

1218
01:05:28,800 --> 01:05:31,000
Speaker 1: Moved back to the United States in nineteen because ben

1219
01:05:31,080 --> 01:05:33,760
Speaker 1: Zion gets a job in New York. Bbe would spend

1220
01:05:33,800 --> 01:05:36,400
Speaker 1: much of his childhood and adolescence bouncing back and forth

1221
01:05:36,440 --> 01:05:40,280
Speaker 1: between Jerusalem and the United States East Coast. Whenever they moved.

1222
01:05:40,400 --> 01:05:43,600
Speaker 1: Yoni remained the charismatic, popular leader, and b B his

1223
01:05:43,680 --> 01:05:47,240
Speaker 1: dutiful and adoring brother. In high school, Yoni was the

1224
01:05:47,240 --> 01:05:49,320
Speaker 1: president of the student council and the leader of the

1225
01:05:49,360 --> 01:05:51,880
Speaker 1: local boy Scout troupe. BB does not seem to have

1226
01:05:51,920 --> 01:05:53,680
Speaker 1: resented him, and to the best of our now, everyone

1227
01:05:53,760 --> 01:05:57,000
Speaker 1: seems to see he basically worshiped his older brother. In

1228
01:05:57,080 --> 01:05:59,840
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty two, when Yoni was sixteen and BB thirt,

1229
01:06:00,280 --> 01:06:02,640
Speaker 1: the family moved back to the US yet again. Ben

1230
01:06:02,720 --> 01:06:04,880
Speaker 1: Zion was getting old and he was desperate to make

1231
01:06:04,920 --> 01:06:06,960
Speaker 1: a mark as a historian, which he did not feel

1232
01:06:07,000 --> 01:06:09,240
Speaker 1: he could do from Israel. He also didn't enjoy the

1233
01:06:09,280 --> 01:06:13,160
Speaker 1: comparatively spartan conditions there. The Net and Yahoo boys were devastated.

1234
01:06:13,240 --> 01:06:16,680
Speaker 1: Babie recalls leaving his close friends behind as very traumatic

1235
01:06:16,800 --> 01:06:22,040
Speaker 1: and a terrible dislocation. Now, yeah, imagine being dislocated from

1236
01:06:22,080 --> 01:06:26,200
Speaker 1: your friends and family would really suck. Baby. Yeah, I

1237
01:06:26,200 --> 01:06:30,400
Speaker 1: can see why you wouldn't like that. It only counts

1238
01:06:30,440 --> 01:06:35,320
Speaker 1: for him, Yeah, absolutely, the sheer trauma of being forced

1239
01:06:35,320 --> 01:06:41,680
Speaker 1: to move to the United States. Now, both boys were

1240
01:06:41,680 --> 01:06:44,640
Speaker 1: good students, although BB proved much better at learning English

1241
01:06:44,680 --> 01:06:48,200
Speaker 1: than his brother. They did not take to American culture though.

1242
01:06:48,480 --> 01:06:51,480
Speaker 1: In April nineteen sixty three, Yoni wrote a letter home

1243
01:06:51,520 --> 01:06:53,919
Speaker 1: to a friend in Israel that quote, people here talk

1244
01:06:53,960 --> 01:06:57,520
Speaker 1: about cars and girls. Life revolves around one subject sex.

1245
01:06:58,200 --> 01:07:00,400
Speaker 1: I believe Freud would have rich ground here a seed

1246
01:07:00,400 --> 01:07:02,920
Speaker 1: and pick his fruit Slowly. I am being convinced that

1247
01:07:02,960 --> 01:07:08,080
Speaker 1: I live among monkeys, not humans. Now this is where

1248
01:07:08,120 --> 01:07:10,160
Speaker 1: we're kind of leave the Net and Yahoo's for today.

1249
01:07:10,240 --> 01:07:12,000
Speaker 1: But it seems weird and kind of fucked up to

1250
01:07:12,160 --> 01:07:14,800
Speaker 1: end today's episode on this note with everything going on

1251
01:07:14,840 --> 01:07:17,400
Speaker 1: in Palestine right now, So instead I want to end

1252
01:07:17,440 --> 01:07:20,520
Speaker 1: on another story from the nakba Um and this is

1253
01:07:20,520 --> 01:07:22,800
Speaker 1: a story I found in an Al Jazeera episode about

1254
01:07:22,920 --> 01:07:26,400
Speaker 1: survivors of that calamity. Um Abu Arab, who is now

1255
01:07:26,480 --> 01:07:29,480
Speaker 1: an Israeli citizen, was a thirteen year old boy when

1256
01:07:29,560 --> 01:07:33,920
Speaker 1: Jewish paramilitaries came to ethnically cleanse his village, Safuria, outside

1257
01:07:33,920 --> 01:07:37,160
Speaker 1: of Nazareth. Quote. They bombed us from the air just

1258
01:07:37,200 --> 01:07:39,400
Speaker 1: as we were fasting for Ramadan. They knew we would

1259
01:07:39,440 --> 01:07:42,280
Speaker 1: all be in our homes. His parents fled with he

1260
01:07:42,360 --> 01:07:44,880
Speaker 1: and his siblings into a nearby forest. In the morning,

1261
01:07:44,920 --> 01:07:47,160
Speaker 1: troops occupied the village and they were forced to flee

1262
01:07:47,200 --> 01:07:50,200
Speaker 1: towards Lebanon. After a brutal journey on foot, they reached

1263
01:07:50,240 --> 01:07:52,880
Speaker 1: a refugee camp where his twelve year old sister died

1264
01:07:52,920 --> 01:07:56,160
Speaker 1: from heat exhaustion. He recalls, my mother would sit by

1265
01:07:56,160 --> 01:08:00,320
Speaker 1: her grave every day, lost in grief. Eventually, his father

1266
01:08:00,400 --> 01:08:03,440
Speaker 1: decided they had to travel back home, which was extremely dangerous.

1267
01:08:03,440 --> 01:08:06,080
Speaker 1: When they reached home, they found their village gone fenced

1268
01:08:06,080 --> 01:08:09,280
Speaker 1: off and declared a military zone. Anyone who entered would

1269
01:08:09,280 --> 01:08:11,480
Speaker 1: be shot. The family had to hide at a friend's

1270
01:08:11,560 --> 01:08:13,880
Speaker 1: house in Nazareth, where they slowly began the process of

1271
01:08:13,920 --> 01:08:17,519
Speaker 1: rebuilding their lives. Now, despite the fact that Abu Arab

1272
01:08:17,600 --> 01:08:20,400
Speaker 1: is now an Israeli citizen, he has no right to

1273
01:08:20,439 --> 01:08:22,639
Speaker 1: return to his village or the land that his family

1274
01:08:22,680 --> 01:08:26,200
Speaker 1: still owns. In Israeli legal parlance, he is a quote

1275
01:08:26,280 --> 01:08:30,639
Speaker 1: present absentee, as in he's present in Israel, but absent

1276
01:08:30,720 --> 01:08:33,720
Speaker 1: from his property, which has given the Israeli state the

1277
01:08:33,800 --> 01:08:37,040
Speaker 1: right to hand his family property over. His village is

1278
01:08:37,080 --> 01:08:40,040
Speaker 1: now host to an exclusively Jewish community where Abs are

1279
01:08:40,040 --> 01:08:42,360
Speaker 1: not allowed to live. And part of why this is

1280
01:08:42,400 --> 01:08:45,879
Speaker 1: relevant is that, again we talked about the inciting incidents.

1281
01:08:45,880 --> 01:08:48,760
Speaker 1: This is not why everything started recently, but it was

1282
01:08:48,840 --> 01:08:54,160
Speaker 1: kind of the spark is um that neighborhood in Jerusalem,

1283
01:08:54,200 --> 01:08:56,560
Speaker 1: a bunch of Palestinian families were being cleared out. In

1284
01:08:56,560 --> 01:08:58,840
Speaker 1: the justification was the land that they had lived on

1285
01:08:58,920 --> 01:09:03,400
Speaker 1: for generations had been bought by Jews in the eighteen hundreds. Now,

1286
01:09:03,439 --> 01:09:06,599
Speaker 1: the reason why those Palestinian families wound up in that

1287
01:09:06,640 --> 01:09:11,120
Speaker 1: neighborhood is because after the Nakba, when East Jerusalem was

1288
01:09:11,160 --> 01:09:14,000
Speaker 1: partitioned off, they had to flee there as refugees and

1289
01:09:14,040 --> 01:09:16,639
Speaker 1: it was the only place that they could live and

1290
01:09:17,040 --> 01:09:19,639
Speaker 1: the reason why that land is just the the Israeli

1291
01:09:19,640 --> 01:09:22,360
Speaker 1: state justifies taking those homes from them by saying, well,

1292
01:09:22,360 --> 01:09:24,160
Speaker 1: it was owned by Jewish people earlier, and they have

1293
01:09:24,160 --> 01:09:26,880
Speaker 1: a right of return, But none of those Palestinians have

1294
01:09:27,000 --> 01:09:29,400
Speaker 1: the right to return to the areas that they had

1295
01:09:29,400 --> 01:09:32,200
Speaker 1: originally lived in that were taken by Jews during the

1296
01:09:32,320 --> 01:09:37,760
Speaker 1: nakpa um, which is I mean, yeah, like it's not

1297
01:09:37,880 --> 01:09:40,920
Speaker 1: it's like the selective application of the right of return,

1298
01:09:41,760 --> 01:09:45,479
Speaker 1: because the Israeli state sees itself like it's only in

1299
01:09:45,520 --> 01:09:48,559
Speaker 1: service of people who are Jewish. Um. I think the

1300
01:09:49,080 --> 01:09:50,559
Speaker 1: you know, we can talk about this more later, but

1301
01:09:50,600 --> 01:09:53,680
Speaker 1: the nation state all kind of cemented that as like

1302
01:09:53,720 --> 01:09:55,920
Speaker 1: they're the only ones they have a unique right to

1303
01:09:55,960 --> 01:10:00,680
Speaker 1: self determination nobody else does. And then on top of that,

1304
01:10:00,760 --> 01:10:03,240
Speaker 1: just to clarify the ships of that situation, there weren't

1305
01:10:03,240 --> 01:10:06,320
Speaker 1: any homes there. Um that I mean, I think the

1306
01:10:06,400 --> 01:10:09,000
Speaker 1: way some collections or something that they bought the land,

1307
01:10:09,160 --> 01:10:13,000
Speaker 1: they built the homes themselves. Um. So it's even even

1308
01:10:13,040 --> 01:10:17,519
Speaker 1: further removed from the you know, their their own reality

1309
01:10:17,520 --> 01:10:21,400
Speaker 1: of like being expelled from Haifa and all these other cities,

1310
01:10:21,400 --> 01:10:27,280
Speaker 1: and that for you, Yeah, it's it's pretty fucked um. Yeah,

1311
01:10:27,320 --> 01:10:30,800
Speaker 1: and we'll talk well, we'll talk more about the what

1312
01:10:30,960 --> 01:10:33,160
Speaker 1: net and yah who says about the nature of the

1313
01:10:33,240 --> 01:10:36,040
Speaker 1: Israeli state Because it's I mean, it's it's it's f

1314
01:10:36,200 --> 01:10:40,880
Speaker 1: no nationalist ship, it's it's it's pretty fucking fascist. Um.

1315
01:10:41,000 --> 01:10:44,680
Speaker 1: I think it's fair to call it that. Um. And

1316
01:10:44,760 --> 01:10:47,840
Speaker 1: it's bad. But you, Dana are great and I really

1317
01:10:47,920 --> 01:10:52,200
Speaker 1: appreciate uh, you coming on and lending your your much

1318
01:10:52,200 --> 01:10:55,719
Speaker 1: greater experience and knowledge, UM, so that I don't screw

1319
01:10:55,760 --> 01:11:00,160
Speaker 1: this up. I appreciate you having Yeah, this is great son.

1320
01:11:00,240 --> 01:11:02,679
Speaker 1: If people want to support you, they can buy your book,

1321
01:11:02,760 --> 01:11:07,599
Speaker 1: Polarized and Demobilized Legacies of Authoritarianism in Palestine. And if

1322
01:11:07,600 --> 01:11:11,160
Speaker 1: people listening are angry and horrified about what's happening in Gaza,

1323
01:11:11,200 --> 01:11:14,559
Speaker 1: what's happening in parts of Jerusalem right now? Um. Is

1324
01:11:14,560 --> 01:11:16,960
Speaker 1: there any place you think they could they could give

1325
01:11:17,000 --> 01:11:20,840
Speaker 1: money to maybe help. Yeah, there's a medical aid for

1326
01:11:20,880 --> 01:11:23,240
Speaker 1: Palestinians that has teams both in the Gaza and the

1327
01:11:23,240 --> 01:11:28,040
Speaker 1: West Bank. Um. It's a very legitimate organization that is

1328
01:11:28,479 --> 01:11:32,320
Speaker 1: serving a you know, a growing need. Um. And then

1329
01:11:32,360 --> 01:11:38,080
Speaker 1: for people who are interested in kind of supporting Jerusalem families. UM,

1330
01:11:38,120 --> 01:11:41,880
Speaker 1: there's UH to own uh Palestine. It's t A A

1331
01:11:42,200 --> 01:11:47,960
Speaker 1: w O and UM as well as UM grassroots and quotes. UM.

1332
01:11:48,000 --> 01:11:50,800
Speaker 1: So that's both on the economic front and on the

1333
01:11:53,040 --> 01:11:57,400
Speaker 1: home and then and land seizure UM uh situation. You

1334
01:11:57,520 --> 01:12:00,160
Speaker 1: can kind of help on both ends. Awesome. We've will

1335
01:12:00,200 --> 01:12:05,439
Speaker 1: have links to those both in the show notes behind

1336
01:12:05,479 --> 01:12:08,960
Speaker 1: the Bastards dot com UM and on our Twitter account.

1337
01:12:08,960 --> 01:12:12,040
Speaker 1: Well we'll tweet that out too. So all right, thank you, Danna.

1338
01:12:12,160 --> 01:12:15,880
Speaker 1: We will be back on Thursday with more stuff. That's

1339
01:12:16,280 --> 01:12:20,880
Speaker 1: real bummer. He's not not a lot of fun. I'm

1340
01:12:20,920 --> 01:12:24,240
Speaker 1: a super fun guest. UM. No, you've been actually, you've

1341
01:12:24,280 --> 01:12:25,880
Speaker 1: been really wonderful. Thank you.