1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio High 2 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: Family Secrets listeners. It's Danny here to share another incredible 3 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 1: conversation with you, the second in our series of live episodes. 4 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 1: Recorded in January. During my paperback tour, I sat down 5 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 1: with author and podcast host Gretchen Reuben, who interviewed me 6 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 1: about my own family secret. We also talked about the 7 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:37,239 Speaker 1: still almost totally unregulated world of sperm and egg donation 8 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:41,520 Speaker 1: and why the era of recreational DNA tests could mean 9 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: the end of secrets for anyone who wondering where they 10 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 1: really come from. Stay tuned for the second half of 11 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 1: my conversation with Gretchen. We opened the discussion up to 12 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 1: our audience, who had incredibly moving stories of their own 13 00:00:54,120 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 1: to share. That's out tomorrow. My first question, Danny, is 14 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: I mean, you're a writer, You're having this intense experience. 15 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,960 Speaker 1: Did you know from the beginning that you would write 16 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:23,040 Speaker 1: about it? I really did, I really did. I It 17 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:28,279 Speaker 1: wasn't knowledge like I thought, Oh goody, my next book. 18 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:30,679 Speaker 1: It was my life has turned upside down. This is 19 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: great copy, right, That's what Nora says. And I even 20 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 1: had writer friends saying, like, boy, this is going to 21 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:40,959 Speaker 1: be an amazing book, and I was almost insulted initially, 22 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 1: like this doesn't feel like a book. This is my 23 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: life that's been so upended. But as a writer, I 24 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 1: have always um written in order to understand what I feel, 25 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: what I know, what I think, what I the world 26 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: around me. It's how I it's literally how I how 27 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: I process. And so I began writing very quickly, even 28 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 1: just scribbling on index cards, because I wanted to remember 29 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: what it was that I was feeling, because my um, 30 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,799 Speaker 1: my emotional life was moving sort of so rapidly. Um, 31 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 1: I don't know that we can remember what shock feels like, 32 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 1: you know, months later, that kind of thing. But there 33 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:25,920 Speaker 1: also was a ticking clock because I was aware that 34 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 1: anything that I might learn about the truth of my identity, 35 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:34,359 Speaker 1: about what my parents had known or not known, about 36 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: what the world of medicine was like at the time 37 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 1: of my conception, literally the story of my life and 38 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 1: how I came to be. Anyone who still knew anything 39 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:49,799 Speaker 1: about that was going to be elderly. And so my 40 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: my husband and I like, forgive me for this. My 41 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: my husband I had a running joke because I'm I'm 42 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: a writer. I don't like picking up the phone and 43 00:02:56,919 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: calling people who don't want to hear from me. Um. 44 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 1: I would or make a good investigative journalist that way. 45 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 1: And if you're reaching out to people in their nineties 46 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:06,800 Speaker 1: that they probably don't have email, which was always like 47 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 1: the writer's first refugees, I can just send an email. 48 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:12,959 Speaker 1: It's uh, the easier way to go about it. So 49 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 1: I would be in the position of having to pick 50 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: up the phone and call people and I was dragging 51 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: my feet, and my husband Michael would say, he may 52 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: be dead by Friday. Yeah, so that that that guy 53 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 1: made that that definitely got me going yes. Um. And 54 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 1: one of the things that was interesting was as you 55 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: approached your biological father and he and his family became 56 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 1: sort of comfortable with connecting with you, how did they 57 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 1: respond to the book And also sort of the two 58 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:46,839 Speaker 1: stages of the book, because it's one thing to be like, hey, 59 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 1: there's gonna be this book, and then it's like, hey, 60 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 1: this book is actually like a huge runaway bestseller, and 61 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: now I have a podcast and maybe there's gonna be 62 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 1: a TV show and I'm giving lectures all around the country. 63 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 1: I mean, it's one he may not have, they may 64 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 1: not have conceived of what the book might become. So 65 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: how did they how they grappled with that? Well, to 66 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: begin with, I was transparent with them from the time 67 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 1: that we were conversing with each other that that I 68 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:18,920 Speaker 1: would be writing about it. I mean, all they would 69 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 1: need to do is that's a good example, like do 70 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 1: the right thing right away, because if you had just 71 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 1: sprung a book on them, slid that by. Yeah. And 72 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:30,279 Speaker 1: also I think energetically it wouldn't have it would have 73 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,159 Speaker 1: polluted the air between us because I would have really 74 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 1: been secretly taking notes. I was never doing that. I 75 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: was and anyone who knew anything about my history as 76 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:44,159 Speaker 1: a writer that I've always written about family secrets, I've 77 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:47,479 Speaker 1: always written about identity. These have been my subjects. And 78 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:50,720 Speaker 1: then it turns out that I was the family secret 79 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:53,160 Speaker 1: and that my identity has been upended. Of course I'm 80 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 1: going to write about it. So I was transparent about 81 00:04:56,680 --> 00:05:00,080 Speaker 1: it from the beginning. Um, what I did when I 82 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:03,799 Speaker 1: finished the book and it was really done and ready 83 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 1: to be turned into my publisher is I sent it 84 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:09,480 Speaker 1: to them. I sent it to my biological though. Note 85 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 1: that's pretty unusual usually with memoirs there they really don't 86 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: do that. It's unusual to allow someone the opportunity to 87 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 1: weigh it. Well, it's a little dangerous because it's like 88 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:24,839 Speaker 1: giving someone wet clay. I'm like, here, you can shape 89 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 1: this now. It can feel like, um, it's giving permission 90 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:33,159 Speaker 1: to really kind of make changes. What I was interested 91 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 1: in mostly was that he felt that his privacy was protected. UM. 92 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:40,480 Speaker 1: I had taken great pains to protect his privacy. It 93 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 1: was very important to me to do that. UM. But 94 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:46,239 Speaker 1: I wanted him to feel that his privacy was protected. 95 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 1: I wanted to make sure that there was nothing I 96 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 1: had missed. Uh. I guess I wanted his blessing too. 97 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:53,719 Speaker 1: I wanted him to like it. I wanted him to 98 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 1: feel that it accurately reflected what it happened between us. 99 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 1: But mostly it was that I wanted his privacy to 100 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 1: be protected. And so the second part of this, which 101 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:11,159 Speaker 1: is that UM, the book came out and did strike 102 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 1: a chord and did start to be a book that 103 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: you would know about, you know that you couldn't really 104 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 1: avoid knowing about. I was on a lot of TV shows, 105 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:23,480 Speaker 1: and there were a lot of pieces written, and there 106 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: was a big piece in Time magazine right before the 107 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 1: book came out, So the question of like, how did 108 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:35,279 Speaker 1: that feel too, Um, people who were in the book, 109 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 1: even with their identities protected, but they were in the book. 110 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:44,919 Speaker 1: They've been wonderful and I think actually proud, I would say, 111 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 1: and UM in a certain way, very interested in following along. 112 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 1: So that's another way in which this has been a 113 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 1: kind of remarkable. Um. I you know, one of the 114 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:58,280 Speaker 1: things that I've said often since the book came out, 115 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 1: and I've met so many people who are having these 116 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 1: discoveries of various kinds because of easy, accessible DNA testing 117 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 1: and the impact that it's having on our society and 118 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: on so many families. My story is a good one. 119 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 1: Not all of the stories are easy. A lot of 120 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 1: them are quite painful. There's pain in all of these 121 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 1: stories of discovery. I mean, it was a very very 122 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 1: hard thing for me to metabolize that my dad, who 123 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 1: raised me and who I adored and who loved me 124 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 1: into being and is a huge part of why I 125 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: am the person that I am, UM, that he wasn't 126 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 1: my biological father, and that I had never known it. 127 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 1: That was really hard. But then there have been so 128 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 1: many gifts in the wake of this discovery, and one 129 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 1: of them really is that my biological father and his 130 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 1: family have been as kind and as open as they 131 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: have been. Well, Um, I have a podcast called Happier 132 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 1: with Grudge and Ruben and Elizabeth at My Cost and 133 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 1: I interviewed you for our book book club, and one 134 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 1: of our listeners asked a question that I thought was 135 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 1: really interesting, which was, do you think that your biological 136 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 1: father and his family would have been as willing to 137 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: meet with you if they couldn't have seen that you 138 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 1: were so accomplished, Like they could just look you up 139 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: and see like And then I remember in your first 140 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 1: letter to him, you say I'm a wife, I'm a mother, 141 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 1: I'm a writer. You know you sort of say I'm 142 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: a ordinary, stable person with a good life, a rich life. 143 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:39,079 Speaker 1: But he could also look that up and see that 144 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:41,320 Speaker 1: you were very accomplished. Do you think if you hadn't 145 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:44,200 Speaker 1: been so google able they might not have been willing 146 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:48,200 Speaker 1: to open themselves up to you. One of the things 147 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: that I'm hearing a lot um as I've been traveling 148 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 1: for the last year since Inheritance came out, UM, is 149 00:08:55,960 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 1: that whenever there is a situation like this in a 150 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: family of any kind of someone sending an email or 151 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 1: calling or writing a letter saying I'm confused. I mean, 152 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: but I have this information. I think we're related. I 153 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:15,839 Speaker 1: think i'm your biological daughter, or I think i'm your 154 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:19,320 Speaker 1: half sibling, or you know, I got these results from 155 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 1: my DNA test and they point to some kind of 156 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 1: genetic connection. The very first response that across the board 157 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 1: every family that I have encountered UM has is feeling threatened, 158 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: every single one. And I think it's hardwired into us. 159 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:43,959 Speaker 1: It's a primal reaction. It's a primitive reaction. It's like, 160 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 1: you know, we're sitting here in a synagogue. It's like 161 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 1: it's the outsider, you know, it's it's the it's the 162 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 1: it's the outlier. It's the stranger in our midst that 163 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 1: kind of feeling. But it's more than a stranger. It's 164 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: somebody who might have a claim, and that's even more 165 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 1: threatening in a way. And and the threat usually UM 166 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 1: goes straight to financial. What do you want from me? 167 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 1: You want my money? Um, even if it's you know, 168 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: I know a story where the person who has made 169 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:19,320 Speaker 1: the discovery was a extremely wealthy person, uh, and the 170 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 1: the discovered biological family was not. But there's still that 171 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:27,679 Speaker 1: feeling of what do you want from me? I, um, 172 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:34,680 Speaker 1: I have nothing for you, and the times that families 173 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 1: are able to get past that. I mean, it's just 174 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 1: my I mean my biological family. The same thing that 175 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 1: was the first response was what do you want? No, No, 176 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 1: I I donated anonymously. I signed a contract. I was 177 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 1: guaranteed an anonymity. You know you're you're you're intruding into 178 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 1: my life. Yes, I was google able. I also when 179 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 1: I initially wrote to him, I was very conscious of 180 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: wanting him to understand that I was a human being, 181 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: you know, a wife, a mother, living in Connecticut. You 182 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 1: know that I was um that I came in peace. 183 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 1: But at the same time, on my website, the very 184 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 1: first thing you would have seen at that time on 185 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 1: the home page of my website would have been a 186 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 1: picture of me with Oprah with her arm around me, 187 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 1: because I had recently been on super Soon Sunday. Now, 188 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 1: that is both good news and bad news. And I 189 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:32,560 Speaker 1: really think, as someone very concerned about his privacy, that 190 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 1: the idea that Oprah could come bring out spring out 191 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 1: from the bushes with a microphone episodes. So I do think, 192 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 1: and and and also he started, I think digging into 193 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 1: my history a little bit as a writer and seeing 194 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 1: that I've written about family all my life will be 195 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 1: back in a moment with more family secrets. So talk 196 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: for a moment about what this was. You write about 197 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 1: this so beautifully in the book, and it's it's the moment. 198 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 1: It's this tremendously thrilling, terrifying moment when you and your husband, 199 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: and your husband's like, here we go, here we go, 200 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:17,079 Speaker 1: and you're opening up the page and there's a little 201 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:19,680 Speaker 1: video of him and you see that it's your father 202 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:23,200 Speaker 1: and it's your features, and your husband says, oh my goodness. 203 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:26,320 Speaker 1: He even runs a question an answer session the way 204 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:29,199 Speaker 1: you do, and you recognize yourself in his gestures. I mean, 205 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 1: talk about what that was like after all this time 206 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 1: of feeling the sort of sense of not quite fitting 207 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 1: in and now suddenly seeing your face in someone else's face. 208 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:43,679 Speaker 1: I think it will stand forever as the most surreal 209 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 1: moment of my life because it wasn't so much looking 210 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: at someone who looked like me and gestured like me. 211 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: It was also realizing that I hadn't had that familiarity before. 212 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:03,080 Speaker 1: And you know, when we grow up in our biological 213 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: family and we know it's our biological family. There's that 214 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 1: thing that we do just as human beings that's sort 215 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: of like, oh, he walks like Uncle Mo. You know, 216 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 1: oh he has Grammy's nose, or oh, you know, we 217 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 1: don't even think it. It's just when we know that 218 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 1: we're part of a biological family, that is part that 219 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:24,080 Speaker 1: familiarity is part of being part of a biological family. 220 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:28,679 Speaker 1: If we are adopted, and we've always known that we 221 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 1: were adopted, and it's been woven into our identity from 222 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:35,079 Speaker 1: the time that we're very small, then we know why 223 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:40,199 Speaker 1: we don't look like our biological family or why there 224 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 1: is this sense of unfamiliarity. In an adoption literature, there's 225 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: a beautiful phrase called um genealogical bewilderment. We know why 226 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 1: there is this geneological bewilderment. But if our identity has 227 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 1: actually not been told to us, as you know, our 228 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 1: identities are formed by the stories were told from the 229 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:08,440 Speaker 1: time were very small, and it's a story that we're 230 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 1: told is this is your biological family. But in my case, 231 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:15,839 Speaker 1: on my father's side, it was not. I did not 232 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 1: have that familiarity. I did not have that recognition. In fact, 233 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 1: I looked completely unlike a Shapiro and and that was 234 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 1: a big part of the story of my life. People 235 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 1: constantly telling me that I didn't look Jewish, that I 236 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 1: didn't look like my father's family. Um. I was constantly 237 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 1: mistaken for, you know, just being not not not being Jewish. 238 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 1: And meanwhile, and I would come back with raised kosher 239 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 1: you know, when to achieve us, you know, like, don't 240 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 1: talk to me about not being Jewish. Um. But it 241 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 1: was the story of my life. So when I saw 242 00:14:56,360 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 1: my biological fathers phase for the first time and was 243 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: lecturing for those of you who haven't read the book yet, 244 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: he was standing by, you know, behind a lectern, delivering 245 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 1: a lecture on medical ethics, and you can't make it up. 246 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: You can't know. I couldn't. I changed identifying details. But 247 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 1: that wasn't one of them. That would be cheating, that 248 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 1: wouldn't have been fair. Um, But there was. I saw 249 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 1: his gestures, and when I saw his gestures, I recognized 250 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 1: my gestures. And that was like a heart stopping moment 251 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 1: because it was seeing the familiar in a stranger. He's 252 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 1: a stranger. But it was also like I wasn't looking 253 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 1: at a video of a fireman. You know, I wasn't 254 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 1: looking at a video of something I've never done. I 255 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 1: stand behind podiums all the time, and I deliver lectures 256 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 1: all the time, and I run q and as all 257 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: the time. So he was doing something that was very 258 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 1: familiar to me. So I could see I could see 259 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 1: myself in that way. Well, in speaking of medical ethics, 260 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 1: it's interesting since the book has come out, and since 261 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 1: it's it's made such an pression on people, you have 262 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: become sort of the voice of kind of all the 263 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 1: people who are experiencing what we might call like technology 264 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 1: enabled UM secret discovery, and you are starting to talk 265 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: to people about medical ethics and bio ethics. How has 266 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 1: that been for you to kind of be pulled into 267 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: this expertise UM? And and also in kind of a 268 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 1: larger way, you are also sort of a a person 269 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: where many people who have secrets like this want to 270 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 1: confide the secret in you. And now with your your 271 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 1: podcast Family Secrets, that's given you a way to sort 272 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 1: of give boys to that. UM. How has it been 273 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 1: for you to sort of be thrust into these roles 274 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 1: by what happened to you personally? You know, it's interesting. 275 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: The other night I was in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, and 276 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 1: I was having UM an onstage conversation with Dr Bessel 277 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 1: Andrew Kolke, who is the leading expert on t mamma 278 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 1: UM in the world. And one of the things that 279 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 1: Dr Vander Kolch writes about in his book, which is 280 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: called The Body Keeps the Score, he writes about the 281 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 1: necessity when you've experienced a trauma of some sort one 282 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:19,400 Speaker 1: of the ways that people recover best is if they're 283 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 1: able to take action, um, if they're not in some 284 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 1: way trapped, either physically or emotionally. And I was reading 285 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:34,440 Speaker 1: Dr Bandicooke's book, and I was thinking about what I 286 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:38,440 Speaker 1: was able to do in the wake of my discovery. 287 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 1: I was able to do something with it. First, by 288 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:47,639 Speaker 1: I mean, my journey and my book are the same 289 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:53,439 Speaker 1: in many ways. I was trying to understand what it 290 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 1: meant that my dad wasn't my biological father. Both of 291 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 1: my parents were dead. I was trying to piece together 292 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 1: as best as I could what they had known and 293 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 1: whether they had consciously kept this from me. I was, 294 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 1: you know, there were so many mysteries that I was 295 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 1: kind of trying to untangle and I as a writer, 296 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,920 Speaker 1: that's what I do, that's that's my toolbox. And then 297 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:18,880 Speaker 1: the book came out, and from the very first event, 298 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 1: it was clear that people were coming who had their 299 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:26,719 Speaker 1: own stories and had their own discoveries, and and they 300 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:32,360 Speaker 1: were from all different kinds of discoveries and different roles 301 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 1: in the discovery process. There were older men who were 302 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:39,120 Speaker 1: coming to my events, and I would realize that they 303 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:42,120 Speaker 1: had been sperm donors and they were trying to figure 304 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 1: out how to deal with the fact that they might 305 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 1: be contacted. I would see couples sitting together and looking 306 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 1: kind of stricken, and I would realize, Oh, you have 307 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 1: donor conceived children who don't know, and you're trying to 308 00:18:57,119 --> 00:18:59,359 Speaker 1: figure out what to do about that. And then I 309 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: would see many people who were had recently discovered that 310 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:06,640 Speaker 1: they were adopted, or recently discovered half siblings, or recently 311 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 1: discovered fathers who discovered children that they had never known about, 312 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: um adopted children, discovering birth parents and vice versa. All 313 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 1: of this was happening. And I think that for me 314 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:24,119 Speaker 1: becoming having this voice and ending up having you know, 315 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:28,679 Speaker 1: a megaphone in a way, has been the action that 316 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 1: has allowed me to process, metabolize, and heal from what 317 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 1: was really a very shocking UM discovery. And in terms 318 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: of the bioethics of this, I mean, we're in this 319 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 1: moment where can I ask a question, just show of hands, 320 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:55,679 Speaker 1: how many people have bought a DNA test in this room? Yeah? 321 00:19:55,760 --> 00:20:02,119 Speaker 1: A lot of you. Yeah. So the number are I 322 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:07,200 Speaker 1: think last year was twelve million kits were sold this year. 323 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 1: I think it was a little bit. They were expecting 324 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 1: it to be higher, and I don't think it was 325 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:14,919 Speaker 1: at least I read an article about twenty three and 326 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:19,200 Speaker 1: me laying off some of its staff because they were 327 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: expecting a bigger explosion. But I can tell you that 328 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:28,360 Speaker 1: of those many millions of people who are gifting families, 329 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 1: gifting each other at Hanukkah and Christmas. You know that's 330 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 1: what my mother in law gave it to me for Christmas. UM. 331 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 1: I saw on Twitter recently somebody posted something like, you know, 332 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:41,640 Speaker 1: all all those people who who got their DNA test 333 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 1: for the holidays, Easter is gonna suck. But they're they're 334 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of people who are making versions of 335 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:58,400 Speaker 1: this discovery and the bioethics community, I mean I've spoken 336 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 1: at Harvard and at Stanford, i was us at Johns Hopkins. 337 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:04,199 Speaker 1: I'm going to pen speaking with the head of the 338 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 1: program at Colombia. It is one of the I mean, 339 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:11,120 Speaker 1: we have many ethical issues of our time, but it's 340 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:14,400 Speaker 1: one of the big ones, because what does it mean 341 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 1: that the science has changed everything and that men and 342 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:22,160 Speaker 1: women to now because of egg donation who were promised 343 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 1: anonymity no longer have it. Secrets are are no longer possible. 344 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 1: There's a huge stream of people who are making really 345 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 1: difficult identity shifting discoveries and the question of what is 346 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 1: our moral responsibility to each other. I think one of 347 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:41,440 Speaker 1: the reasons why Inheritance has resonated so much is because 348 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,919 Speaker 1: I have become an expert on this from the inside, 349 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 1: from the inside, right, it's it's not a research project, 350 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,159 Speaker 1: it's um And you know. One of the things that 351 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,439 Speaker 1: happens that I feel that I can give voice to is, 352 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:58,920 Speaker 1: for example, in the adoption community. I think a lot 353 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:02,159 Speaker 1: of people thought who hadn't read the book yet, I 354 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:06,920 Speaker 1: thought that I was saying that nature is all important, right, 355 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,440 Speaker 1: it mattered to me to meet my biological father. I 356 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:11,880 Speaker 1: actually had people saying to me like, why would that matter? 357 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 1: And it was usually people who grew up with their 358 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 1: biological parents, you know, who just couldn't kind of imagine 359 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 1: themselves in my shoes. But one of the things that 360 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,640 Speaker 1: I feel like I'm here to say is my mother, 361 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 1: who was my biological mother. I actually double checked. Um. 362 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:35,120 Speaker 1: She and I weren't close. I never felt connected to her. 363 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: We were just kind of oil and water. She was 364 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 1: my biological mother. My dad, who it turns out is 365 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:49,520 Speaker 1: not my biological father, is like a soul connection to me. Um. 366 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 1: He died when I was twenty three years old, and 367 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 1: there hasn't been a day that's gone by that I 368 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:57,920 Speaker 1: haven't spoken to him and thought about him. My books 369 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 1: have been for him in a certain way. I've written 370 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 1: about him, I've wrestled with him. I've tried to understand him. 371 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 1: He's on the cover of your book now. He is 372 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:08,720 Speaker 1: now on the paperback that you all have that is 373 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 1: a picture of myself as UM a little girl with 374 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:13,880 Speaker 1: my dad, and you can see the connection between us. 375 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,200 Speaker 1: I love that picture so much because there's so much 376 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:20,959 Speaker 1: unfettered joy. It matters not at all that he's not 377 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:25,200 Speaker 1: my biological father. That it didn't matter. Then I'm sure 378 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 1: that didn't matter to him. I didn't know. The problem 379 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,159 Speaker 1: is not knowing um And that's what I really kind 380 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,639 Speaker 1: of feel like I am trying to give voice to 381 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 1: because there was a huge amount of secrecy in those days. 382 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 1: It's just it's what was counseled, it was what was believed. 383 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:44,159 Speaker 1: Everyone felt that they were doing the right thing. And 384 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 1: and I've come to understand one of the gifts of 385 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 1: this process for me is there's this great term um 386 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 1: in in ethics, which is retrospective moral judgment. We can't 387 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 1: judge the past by the standards of the present. And 388 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:05,359 Speaker 1: when I first found this out, I really thought, how 389 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 1: could they? How could they? How could they? Everyone has 390 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,360 Speaker 1: a right to know their own identity as much as possible. 391 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:14,160 Speaker 1: How could they have kept this? For me? My journey 392 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,160 Speaker 1: was to get to a place of imagining my parents 393 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 1: as people, as people of their time, as people who 394 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,720 Speaker 1: existed before me. And that's a great gift. We don't 395 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 1: often get to do that about our parents. We don't 396 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:30,159 Speaker 1: think of our parents as people separate from us. And 397 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 1: I had to think of them as this traumatized, deeply 398 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 1: ashamed couple who were childless in the late nineteen fifties 399 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 1: and early nineteen sixties, male infertility was so shameful it 400 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,199 Speaker 1: didn't exist. You couldn't get a doctor to diagnose it. 401 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 1: And that was the beautiful scene with the rabbi when 402 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:56,160 Speaker 1: you go to find out sort of describe that where 403 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 1: he says, no, I would have thought that if my 404 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,639 Speaker 1: wife had wanted a baby, you know, all honor to 405 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:02,639 Speaker 1: him for having been willing to do this. That was 406 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,120 Speaker 1: such a beautiful moment. Explained that a little bit. I'm 407 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:06,960 Speaker 1: so glad you brought that up. Yeah. So one of 408 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 1: the elderly people that I reached out to early on 409 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:14,400 Speaker 1: was Rabbi Haskel Lukstein, who is one of these sort 410 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:20,200 Speaker 1: of venerable Orthodox rabbis in Manhattan, UM. His father founded 411 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,880 Speaker 1: the Roma's School UM. His father and my grandfather knew 412 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 1: each other. Haskel and my father, he was a bit 413 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 1: younger than my father, but they knew each other and 414 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:31,880 Speaker 1: they were in the same social circles. And I went 415 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,879 Speaker 1: to see him in part because I thought, maybe my 416 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 1: my father was an Orthodox Jew, maybe he would have gone, 417 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 1: maybe he would have sought rabbinic advice, and if he had, 418 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:44,639 Speaker 1: maybe he would have gone to Rabbi Lukstein. I was 419 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 1: looking for anyone who could tell me. Yes, I spoke 420 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 1: to your father about this or um. But instead what 421 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:56,959 Speaker 1: happened was I explained what had happened. I explained my discovery. 422 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: I explained what I knew um, and Rabbi Lupstein, once 423 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 1: he understood it, his immediate response was colaka, voted to 424 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:12,719 Speaker 1: your father all the honor. If God forbidd it had 425 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,960 Speaker 1: been my wife and I who had struggled with this, 426 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: I would have done the same thing. And what was 427 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 1: so interesting to me over the course of my journey 428 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 1: was expected. It was not because I had read the Hallaja. 429 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 1: I had read the body of Jewish law around this stuff, 430 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:34,640 Speaker 1: and it was it called um sperm donation an abomination, 431 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 1: which was a terrible thing to read, because then I 432 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 1: felt like, well, am i am? I am an abomination? 433 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 1: Did my father think of me as an abomination? It 434 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:49,679 Speaker 1: was awful. And both Rabbi Lukstein and another elderly person 435 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 1: who I visited and sought out was my my aunt Shirley, 436 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 1: my father's younger sister, who is devout. Both of them 437 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,120 Speaker 1: were so completely willing to throw the rule book out. 438 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,080 Speaker 1: You know it was so interesting to me, Like I thought, like, yes, 439 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:09,400 Speaker 1: there's the law, and then there's the humanity, Like, yes, 440 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,400 Speaker 1: there's the law, and then there's the what's right? And 441 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:16,119 Speaker 1: I saw that with the two most um religious people 442 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,879 Speaker 1: whose insights I saw it. We'll be back in a 443 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:27,399 Speaker 1: moment now. One of the things you make a point 444 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 1: in the book that you felt that when you were 445 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 1: approaching your biological father, you were you were fortunate that 446 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 1: you were the first, because in many cases, when these 447 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,919 Speaker 1: secrets come out, they come out in large groups, and 448 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 1: that that makes the bioethics of it and the human 449 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:49,440 Speaker 1: problem of it more complex. Um. I'm sure people are curious, 450 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 1: have you found any other have siblings and um like? 451 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 1: And how do we think about these people who find 452 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 1: each other? Some grow up knowing each other, but then 453 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 1: some are find out about it much later. Yea, So 454 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:09,199 Speaker 1: there's a number of different layers to that. UM. No, 455 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:15,160 Speaker 1: I have not um discovered any other biological half siblings, 456 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 1: which makes me fairly unusual. Most people who are making 457 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:25,919 Speaker 1: these discoveries are discovering significant numbers of half siblings because 458 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 1: often donors donated over a long period of time, or 459 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 1: in more recent years, because of frozen sperm. There could 460 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:40,720 Speaker 1: be half siblings that are generations apart, right, And I 461 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 1: have regularly encountered people who make a discovery like this 462 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 1: and then discover that they have half siblings, twenty three 463 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 1: half siblings, some cases half siblings numbering in the three digits. 464 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 1: My sister's writing partners a single mother by choice, and 465 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 1: there are twenty three known done our siblings and that 466 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 1: in their group. And it's getting you know. But one 467 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 1: of the things that you're bringing up that is interesting 468 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 1: and sort of different from sort of the older generations 469 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 1: where this is these discoveries are happening, is that today, 470 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:20,160 Speaker 1: for the most part, people understand that it's important for 471 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 1: their children to know, you know, to be told the 472 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:26,280 Speaker 1: truth from an early age. There are tools. There are 473 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 1: books that can be read to children, you know, that 474 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 1: have illustrations of trees and seeds and leaves and you know, 475 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 1: just ways for children to process this information. And there's 476 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 1: also much more transparency lead I think, initially by the 477 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 1: same sex community, where there's got to be somebody else, right, 478 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 1: so they've got to tell. And then there are communities 479 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 1: of these kids who grow up who are half siblings 480 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: with biologically with each other, who get to know each other, 481 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 1: and it's all this sense of normalcy around it. It's 482 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 1: it's a different way of making family and of of 483 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:11,960 Speaker 1: processing this. And that's a beautiful thing because it's because 484 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 1: it's out in the open and there's no shame involved. 485 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 1: As soon as there is this secrecy, this non disclosure, 486 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,960 Speaker 1: their shame underneath it, their shame because it means that 487 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 1: why does it need to be kept a secret? Now 488 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 1: in my generation and generations older than me and a 489 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 1: little bit younger than me, it was I mean, I'm 490 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:36,719 Speaker 1: constantly people in their thirties, forties, fifties, sixties and older 491 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 1: are making these discoveries and then discovering half siblings. What 492 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 1: does it mean to be related when there are more 493 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:53,480 Speaker 1: of you than there ever would be in a traditional family? 494 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 1: The last question I want to ask you, and then 495 00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 1: we're going to open it up for questions. Just um 496 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 1: coming up of that. So you have your podcast Family Secrets, 497 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 1: which if you haven't listened to you should just run 498 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:07,720 Speaker 1: and listen. It's so interesting. You highlight, you do long, 499 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 1: hot interviews with people who have a secret. And then 500 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,000 Speaker 1: you've also been doing this fascinating thing where people has 501 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 1: mentioned in the introduction, people can call in and just 502 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 1: sort of like tell their secret. So, given all of 503 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 1: the thinking that you've done about this kind of what's 504 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 1: your bottom line about how to think about a secret? Like, 505 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 1: how do you know when it's your secret to keep, 506 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 1: when it's not your secret to keep? How do you 507 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 1: how do you think about secrets? It's so individual? Um, 508 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 1: there are you know? It's interesting. I actually UM did 509 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 1: a bonus episode with the therapist and writer Laurie gottlieb 510 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 1: Um between my first season and second season, and I 511 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:56,040 Speaker 1: asked Lorie if she thinks it's ever okay to keep 512 00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 1: a secret? And her response I was asking her as 513 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 1: a therapist, and her sponse was really no, never. Secrets 514 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 1: are simply just toxic. UM. I think it was Carl 515 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 1: Young who referred to them as UM toxic poison, which 516 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 1: is kind of redundant, isn't it. Uh, it's a curative UM. 517 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:20,600 Speaker 1: I think when a secret is revealed is as important 518 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 1: as what the secret is or that it's revealed. I 519 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 1: think there are times in UM someone's life where they're 520 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 1: too vulnerable to handle the information. UM. I feel very 521 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 1: fortunate that when I discovered this secret, I was very 522 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 1: much a mature adult. I had a family, I had stability, 523 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 1: I had my life's work. Um, I was in a 524 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 1: place where I was as grounded as I had ever been. 525 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:51,880 Speaker 1: If I had made that discovery when I was in 526 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 1: my twenties and I was not in that kind of 527 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 1: shape at all, I don't know what it would have 528 00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 1: done to me. So I think we have to take 529 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 1: care with the secrets that we hold if we're holding them. 530 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:06,960 Speaker 1: And yet, at the same time, because of the combination 531 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,800 Speaker 1: of the Internet and I remember you said that on 532 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:12,880 Speaker 1: your podcast one time in Passing, You're like, well, with 533 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,719 Speaker 1: the Internet there there's not going to be any more secrets. Well, 534 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 1: I think we're Yeah, we're heading into an era that 535 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 1: I really do think is the the end of the secret, 536 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 1: because you know, it's it's a misunderstanding that people have 537 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:28,959 Speaker 1: that if if they haven't had their DNA tested, it 538 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:33,720 Speaker 1: means that they couldn't be discoverable. Um in any family. 539 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 1: I mean, I've had people who were donors say to me, well, 540 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:38,240 Speaker 1: I don't want to I'm not going to do my 541 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:40,480 Speaker 1: DNA testing because I don't want to be found. It's like, well, 542 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:44,040 Speaker 1: your nephew could do it. Your first cousin, your second cousin, 543 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 1: even your third cousin could do it and somebody would 544 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 1: be able to figure that out. Your your grandchild could 545 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 1: do it. It's it's the it's the unintended consequence of 546 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:58,960 Speaker 1: this development in science and what's complicated. Um, many things 547 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 1: are complicated about it. But there's secrecy and then there's privacy, right, 548 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:07,120 Speaker 1: and they're very connected and they're not the same thing. 549 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 1: And you know, I think we can agree the privacy 550 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:14,919 Speaker 1: is important and we want to have privacy. UM. And 551 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 1: secrecy I think is toxic. But there's you know, there 552 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,560 Speaker 1: are families now in which there are some people keeping 553 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:26,719 Speaker 1: secrets from others because some people want to know and 554 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 1: some people don't want to know. UM. And it's it's 555 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:33,279 Speaker 1: it's very complicated. So I think it's as individual as 556 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:35,880 Speaker 1: um the person and the family that it's happening to. 557 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,279 Speaker 1: For more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the I 558 00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to 559 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:01,280 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.