Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of
Speaker 1: My Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow
Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick,
Speaker 1: and we're back with part two of our series about
Speaker 1: people spinning around in circles. That's right. Part one was
Speaker 1: was essentially a breakdown of of why we've why we
Speaker 1: feel dizzy when we spin around in circles, and then
Speaker 1: we we also went in just a little bit into
Speaker 1: the art of spinning around in circles, particularly as it
Speaker 1: relates to figure skaters and ballet dancers. Now, while figure
Speaker 1: skaters and ballet dancers, I would say regularly practice feats
Speaker 1: that I am in all of in terms of, you know,
Speaker 1: their athleticism and their ability to spin around and stuff
Speaker 1: and still execute precise movements afterwards, I gotta say, there's
Speaker 1: one thing that that maybe makes them not that impressive,
Speaker 1: which is, you know, they only spin for a few
Speaker 1: seconds at a time. What if you were to spin
Speaker 1: around in a dance performance that lasted for minutes and
Speaker 1: minutes on end, maybe hours, who knows. Yeah, And this
Speaker 1: we're getting into the realm of of the whirling dervishes,
Speaker 1: of of Sufi mysticism, the Sufi Whirlers UH that you
Speaker 1: find mostly isolated in in modern day Turkey, but in
Speaker 1: some other regions as well. And if you haven't seen
Speaker 1: footage of this and and certainly heard the corresponding music,
Speaker 1: I really encourage you to to check it out because
Speaker 1: it is. It is phenomenal. It is just to watch it.
Speaker 1: It's a very meditative experience I find. I've always found
Speaker 1: this very intriguing. I think you know I've seen some
Speaker 1: clips on TV at some point, and then back in
Speaker 1: the nineties, at one point, because I was getting increasingly
Speaker 1: into world music and into dead Can dance and stuff,
Speaker 1: I picked up an album off Hemisphere Records titled Mevlana
Speaker 1: Music of the Whirling Dervishes, and and really I was
Speaker 1: blown away by it. Uh I. I looked it up
Speaker 1: again and I don't think this particular album is available anymore,
Speaker 1: but you can find the The particular musician is a
Speaker 1: nes A usual that's an easy I h u z
Speaker 1: e l and UH. A couple of their albums are
Speaker 1: available to stream. UH. It's it's it's really interesting stuff.
Speaker 1: Now I'm not all that well versed in Middle Eastern music,
Speaker 1: but it it does seem to have this very rhythmic
Speaker 1: quality that inspires a certain kind of circular movement even
Speaker 1: in the mind. Oh I, I really enjoyed the music
Speaker 1: too when you shared it with me. Uh, I don't
Speaker 1: know if I found myself thinking in circular ways. Did
Speaker 1: you find yourself ruminating while listening to it? Yeah? I
Speaker 1: played some of I played Usels music for several hours
Speaker 1: while working on notes for for these episodes U the
Speaker 1: other day, and yeah, I found it. I mean, granted,
Speaker 1: you know, part of it is I am thinking about
Speaker 1: people spinning around in circles and then I'm listening to
Speaker 1: this music that is of course uh in a really
Speaker 1: tied to that practice. But but yeah, I found it.
Speaker 1: Found it give me this kind of like calming, circular feeling,
Speaker 1: and really I think it it contributed to yesterday being
Speaker 1: a pretty good day. Nice. Yeah. Watching Sufi whirling dances
Speaker 1: is UM it's kind of hard to describe exactly the
Speaker 1: feeling of what's so beautiful about it. It is not
Speaker 1: like a lot of other dances that UM that operate
Speaker 1: by sort of like surprise, where you know you don't
Speaker 1: know what moves someone's going to do next. The Sufi
Speaker 1: whirling dances are extremely monotonous. I mean, they're basically just
Speaker 1: There might be versions that offers something else, but the
Speaker 1: versions I've seen mainly just feature this repetitive turning in place.
Speaker 1: And yet it is extremely beautiful as a form of dance. Uh,
Speaker 1: And I think it has something to do with the
Speaker 1: thing I want to come back to later in this episode,
Speaker 1: which is the particular movement of the dancers skirts as
Speaker 1: they twirl. There's a kind of like beautiful ge I'm
Speaker 1: a treat to that. And uh, there was actually a
Speaker 1: paper I came across the addressed how that happens. But um,
Speaker 1: but yeah, it's strange that that's such a in a
Speaker 1: way conceptually straightforward type of dance would be so interesting
Speaker 1: to watch for so long. Yeah, there's a real fluidity
Speaker 1: to it. And and you know, we were talking about
Speaker 1: watching it because of course that's that's that's my experience
Speaker 1: with it, uh, seeing it done, listening to the music,
Speaker 1: and it's my understanding that if you you know, if
Speaker 1: you're if you're to travel to say Turkey, you can
Speaker 1: certainly as a tourist see some of it today, observe
Speaker 1: it as a tourist, but of course it's really based
Speaker 1: more in the experience of the dance of being the dancer.
Speaker 1: And I guess you can say that's kind of the
Speaker 1: case with a lot of dance, like it's there's dance
Speaker 1: to watch, but the dance is also the experience, and
Speaker 1: to be the dancer is to be within the system
Speaker 1: of movement. Yeah, so let's let's unpack things a little bit. Yes.
Speaker 1: Sufi Islam. Sufi Ism is the mystical branch of Islam
Speaker 1: in which the practitioner seeks divine love and knowledge through
Speaker 1: the direct experience of God. Uh. It entails different mystical
Speaker 1: paths towards this goal, but the one we're gonna be
Speaker 1: talking about here is, of course, this form of dance.
Speaker 1: The words sufi itself derives from the Arabic for wool,
Speaker 1: as early Islamic aesthetics individuals who practice the denial of
Speaker 1: physical or psychological desires dressed in woolen garments, and Islamic
Speaker 1: mysticism is also known is uh tassa wolf, which literally
Speaker 1: means to dress in wool. The movement originally stirred up
Speaker 1: between six sixty one and seven forty nine c e.
Speaker 1: Apparently in response to perceptions of worldliness in Islamic practice
Speaker 1: at the time. I find it interesting that the mystical
Speaker 1: tradition can sort of arise as a form of almost
Speaker 1: any religion. Like that, you can take almost any religion
Speaker 1: and then there will there can be a mysticism interpretation
Speaker 1: of it, which again is often focused on um individual
Speaker 1: experience and people having practices such as meditation or other
Speaker 1: practices to alter the state of consciousness to make themselves
Speaker 1: have what they believe to be a direct experience of
Speaker 1: the divine in some way. And that there there's Christian mysticism,
Speaker 1: and there's Islamic mysticism, and there's a mystical face of
Speaker 1: almost any religion you can imagine. Yeah, absolutely, and and
Speaker 1: and of course in pretty much any religion you can
Speaker 1: look at to it, it's a divide that can create problems,
Speaker 1: that can can create conflict as well. Um So again,
Speaker 1: out of this, out of Sufi Islam, we we see
Speaker 1: the Sufi whirling emerge. And I imagine a lot of
Speaker 1: you out there have heard of a key individual in this,
Speaker 1: and that is the Persian poet Roomi, who lived twelve
Speaker 1: or seven through twelve seventy three, and he himself was
Speaker 1: a Sufi mystic again. He dies in twelve seventy three
Speaker 1: see and afterwards his followers and his son Sultan Wallad
Speaker 1: create themv Levy Order, an organization of whirling dervishes who
Speaker 1: sought to experience God through elaborate rituals of dance and music.
Speaker 1: And this was formed in thirteen twelve in the Turkish
Speaker 1: city of Kanya. Now many of you may have seen,
Speaker 1: you know, images and videos of of Sufi whirling and uh,
Speaker 1: and you know the dervishes where these tall camel hair
Speaker 1: hats that are said to represent the tombstone of the ego,
Speaker 1: which I really like. Uh. And then they have these
Speaker 1: wide white skirts that twirl around and of course these
Speaker 1: are very visually impressive and certainly play on that concept
Speaker 1: of whirling and turning. But these are said to represent
Speaker 1: the egos shroud. Oh. I love that. And it's funny
Speaker 1: because that might be a little bit more literal than
Speaker 1: people would think. Well, I mean, I guess you can be.
Speaker 1: You can't have something that's too literal if you're talking
Speaker 1: about the ego, which is an intangible concept. But um,
Speaker 1: the way in which it is somewhat literal is that
Speaker 1: it's not just you are wearing a symbolic piece of dress.
Speaker 1: But that when you watch somebody practicing a Sufi whirling dance,
Speaker 1: you will, I think very often find yourself not looking
Speaker 1: at the person and not looking at their face, but
Speaker 1: looking at the twirling skirt. The twirling skirt almost becomes
Speaker 1: the persons. So it's a kind of second order vanishing
Speaker 1: of the identity or the ego. Yeah. Yeah, So the
Speaker 1: big ceremony here is the semi ceremony, and in the
Speaker 1: in this ceremony, the Dervish dancers rotate anti clockwise around
Speaker 1: the vertical access of their bodies while also rotating around
Speaker 1: the other dancers. It's all set to this this wonderful music,
Speaker 1: and it's intended to be a meditative experience, a highly
Speaker 1: meditative experience by which for the dancers their material self
Speaker 1: falls away and a state of oneness is experienced. Yes,
Speaker 1: and so you can obviously look at the the religious,
Speaker 1: the symbolic, the psycle logical importance and significance of this dance.
Speaker 1: But another way to think about the stance is just
Speaker 1: as a physical act. And it comes back to questions
Speaker 1: that I you know that we brought up in our
Speaker 1: earlier episode in the first part of this series, which
Speaker 1: is I watch it and I think, just on a
Speaker 1: physiological level, how do you do that without becoming so
Speaker 1: dizzy that you have to stop? Yeah, because we're talking
Speaker 1: about a lot of spinning. You may have just seen
Speaker 1: clips of this, but the dancers will spend continuously for
Speaker 1: a solid hour with something like thirty spins per minute
Speaker 1: the performance. And this they performed this without experiencing vertico,
Speaker 1: without you know, feeling dizzy, following a reported thousand days
Speaker 1: of training within them of Levy houses. Uh to to
Speaker 1: give another number to you, According to the Guinness Book
Speaker 1: of World Records, the most Sufi whirling revolutions in one
Speaker 1: hour for a mail uh that The record went to
Speaker 1: um Schaffik Ibrahim on January fifth, two thousand twelve for
Speaker 1: two thousand, nine d and five spins in a single hour. Wow. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I have no words. That's that's so many spins. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's just it's it's a tremendous amount of spinning. Um.
Speaker 1: And and not only is the individual not like physically
Speaker 1: ill from it, not only are they they you know,
Speaker 1: retaining this uh, this fluid movement and this elegance and
Speaker 1: they're not crashing into each other, the walls. Uh they're
Speaker 1: keeping it beautiful, but they're also uh, you know, they're
Speaker 1: said to have this this this meditative experience throughout it all.
Speaker 1: So it's not you know, dizziness is in many ways
Speaker 1: feels like the opposite of of a meditative experience. I mean,
Speaker 1: into a certain extent, you could, I guess you compare
Speaker 1: some things about it. But but yeah, what whatever, whatever
Speaker 1: is going on in the mind of the of the
Speaker 1: Sufi whirler, of the of the whirling dervish, it is
Speaker 1: not a state of dizzy chaos. Uh So it's it's fascinating, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, I would also think of dizziness is sort
Speaker 1: of the opposite of a meditative state. Dizziness makes you
Speaker 1: hyper aware of your body and makes it really difficult
Speaker 1: to focus your mind, right, I guess then the main
Speaker 1: comparison would be, well, you're you're living in the now now,
Speaker 1: if you're, if you're you're clutching your head on the ground,
Speaker 1: but not in the way that you want to feel
Speaker 1: in the moment. So I looked into this and I
Speaker 1: found an interesting paper titled a Possible role of Prolonged
Speaker 1: whirling episodes on structural plasticity of the cortical networks and
Speaker 1: altered vertigo perception the cortex of Sufi Whirling Dervishes by
Speaker 1: cal mac at All and this was this was combining
Speaker 1: researchers from New Zealand, the Netherlands and Turkey particularly. Their
Speaker 1: study looked at quote potential structural cortical plasticity unquote in
Speaker 1: Sufi Whirling Dervishes. These s w d s as the abbreviation,
Speaker 1: because again we're talking about a level of sustained spinning
Speaker 1: that most healthy adults are not going to be able
Speaker 1: to hand handle without experiencing vertigo. As they put it, quote,
Speaker 1: this unique whirling based meditation style of Sufi Whirling Dervishes
Speaker 1: achieves extraordinary physiological outcomes that overcome vertico and balance impairment
Speaker 1: which would be expected after prolonged times of whirling. So
Speaker 1: they looked at quote potential relationship of the motion body
Speaker 1: perception related cortical networks and the prolonged term of whirling
Speaker 1: ability without vertigo or dizziness. So a note here again
Speaker 1: is the vestibular system, which of course we went into
Speaker 1: and defined in the UH in the first episode, you know,
Speaker 1: related to inner ear and our the inner ear in
Speaker 1: our sense of balance. They point out that vestibular processing
Speaker 1: is involved not only in space perception and locomotion, but
Speaker 1: also in cognitive perceptions of self. And so there is
Speaker 1: this connection, they say, between the vestibular system and the
Speaker 1: default mode network as well, something we've also discussed on
Speaker 1: the show quite a bit, tied to self awareness, to consciousness,
Speaker 1: to embodiment, but also in many cases unhappiness. You know,
Speaker 1: this this dwelling on what has happened in the past,
Speaker 1: what has happened to me, what is happening in the footle,
Speaker 1: happening in uh to me in the future, et cetera.
Speaker 1: And and you know, getting away from that now nous
Speaker 1: that we often associate with a meditative calm. Yeah, the
Speaker 1: default mode network, I think, is highly associated with cognitive
Speaker 1: patterns that are focused on the self, thinking about self,
Speaker 1: and making judgments about the self. And I mean, what's
Speaker 1: more miserable than that. Yeah. I think it's interesting too
Speaker 1: that we're talking about wheeling and spinning, because there's you know,
Speaker 1: the sort of thinking associated with the default mode network
Speaker 1: sometimes takes the form of a wheel and other belief systems,
Speaker 1: you know, like some some treatments or interpretations of the
Speaker 1: like the wheel of being in in Buddhism kind of
Speaker 1: relate to this, you know, or just sort of the
Speaker 1: feeling of like, oh, I'm on the I'm on the
Speaker 1: hamster wheel of my own default mode network right now,
Speaker 1: I've got to eject myself from that wheel, uh and
Speaker 1: do something with my time. So the question is does
Speaker 1: prolonged whirling contribute to structural changes in the networks of
Speaker 1: the default mode network and self perception in addition to
Speaker 1: motion perception related networks. So the authors point out that
Speaker 1: previous studies have observed, first of all, that decreased cortical
Speaker 1: thickness and meditator's brains relate to the posterior singulate cortex
Speaker 1: or PCC and default mode network also decreased activity in
Speaker 1: the default mode network as well as long And also
Speaker 1: they point out long term meditation practices associated with altered
Speaker 1: resting brain activity, so long lasting activity changes that persist
Speaker 1: in the brain. In a way, you could think about
Speaker 1: meditation as a way of practicing control over what the
Speaker 1: brain does win at rest, right, Yeah, And you know
Speaker 1: it's it's you know, we we've talked about aitation on
Speaker 1: the show in the past. I'm sure we'll continue too,
Speaker 1: because it is, it can it can feel very elusive
Speaker 1: at times, and I think part of it comes down
Speaker 1: to this connection between the mind and body. You know
Speaker 1: that that UM. I mean, that's why I think a
Speaker 1: lot of us find meditation in meditative states or even
Speaker 1: of the flow state in activities that are physical, you know,
Speaker 1: like in in yoga for instance, um or or um
Speaker 1: you know, even you know, other type forms of exercise,
Speaker 1: swimming laps, running laps, going for a jog, that sort
Speaker 1: of thing. Yes, though I feel like I would identify
Speaker 1: more of that meditative type flow state in physical tasks
Speaker 1: that also require some degree of constant uh sort of
Speaker 1: mental engagement, more so than say jogging does U you know,
Speaker 1: Like I've heard some people complain that maybe they can
Speaker 1: enjoy sports, but they find quote exercise boring. And I
Speaker 1: think what they're thinking of is like running on a treadmill,
Speaker 1: in which like in which case, um, you are engaging
Speaker 1: your body, but you are not you are not being
Speaker 1: faced with tasks. You know, there's not like any problems
Speaker 1: for your brain to solve the way there is when
Speaker 1: you're say playing a sport or something or doing something
Speaker 1: with UM, doing something with like variable activities throughout, such
Speaker 1: as like a yoga practice or a or a you know,
Speaker 1: a dance routine or something. Yeah. Well, but I guess
Speaker 1: if you're, like say, jogging around the neighborhood, you're having
Speaker 1: to solve various problems, right like, Okay, I'm gonna not
Speaker 1: run onto that sidewalk that's all crooked, I'm gonna jump
Speaker 1: over that dog, and I'm not going to step in
Speaker 1: that that or that. Right though. It's funny because I
Speaker 1: feel like that just manifests as extreme annoyance. Yeah, I guess. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it comes like there's a thin line sometimes between uh,
Speaker 1: tasks that are fulfilling and tasks that are just a chore.
Speaker 1: I mean, we've talked before about how, um, sometimes when
Speaker 1: you're driving in a car, it can make other people
Speaker 1: just appear as obstacles to you. There's this kind of
Speaker 1: horrible desnsitization that goes on, and we talked about one
Speaker 1: reason for that being that, um that perhaps the you know,
Speaker 1: updating the body schema to include the car makes you
Speaker 1: feel bigger looking at people through the glass of the windshield,
Speaker 1: operating on you know, the different rules of the control
Speaker 1: traffic versus control foot movements. Those things could be separating you.
Speaker 1: But I think another one that maybe we didn't consider
Speaker 1: enough when we've talked about this in the past is
Speaker 1: just speed, because when you're out running on the sidewalk,
Speaker 1: it seems like you have a very different relationship to
Speaker 1: other people than if you're out walking. When you're out running,
Speaker 1: you start to view other people as like obstacles in
Speaker 1: the same kind of way you do you're when you're
Speaker 1: in a car. You're like persons in my way. They're
Speaker 1: not even really a person. This is just like a
Speaker 1: sack of meat that I need to get around. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not myself a runner, but I do
Speaker 1: I get I get hints of that from other runners sometimes.
Speaker 1: So for for this particular study, the authors are going
Speaker 1: to look at um at a Sufi whirlers. Now. One
Speaker 1: thing they note, though, is that the practice of MeV
Speaker 1: Levi ceremonies they're not as robust as they were prior
Speaker 1: to the twentieth century due to a secular policies that
Speaker 1: were enforced. So a lot of what remains today apparently
Speaker 1: isn't as rigorous and is often aimed at at tourist audiences.
Speaker 1: So it's difficult to study quote the traditional physical and
Speaker 1: spiritual method involved here. As a result, you know, it's
Speaker 1: not a huge sample size they're working with. So they
Speaker 1: looked at eight males and two females adults right handed
Speaker 1: traditional Sufi whirling dervishes with more than eight years of
Speaker 1: whirling meditation experience, so the average with something like ten
Speaker 1: and a half years of whirling uh, which I think
Speaker 1: broke down about like two whirling sessions per week to
Speaker 1: keep the practice up. They also had a ten person
Speaker 1: control group that was otherwise matched up with the attributes
Speaker 1: of of the individuals that were themselves whirlers. They performed
Speaker 1: m r I scans and found an average difference in
Speaker 1: cortical thickness of point ten millimeters for the left hemisphere
Speaker 1: of the brain and point fifteen millimeters for the right
Speaker 1: hemisphere of the brain. So they present this as proof
Speaker 1: of structural plasticity induced by the whirling meditations of Sufi
Speaker 1: whirling dervishes. Now, one of the take homes from this
Speaker 1: study is that this sort of information could lead to
Speaker 1: some improvements in vertigo therapy UH. And I also imagine
Speaker 1: it goes back to what we mentioned in the last
Speaker 1: episode about the more we understand this sort of thing,
Speaker 1: the more we can understand just to how the brain functions,
Speaker 1: how the brain can heal itself, that sort of thing.
Speaker 1: But they also stress that there's a lot of possibility
Speaker 1: in the the potential mood enhancing effect of the defined
Speaker 1: structurally plastinated cortical areas um and and and how that
Speaker 1: is worth consideration. So they point out that the default
Speaker 1: mode network is active except when it is suppressed by
Speaker 1: other networks or stimulated by other states, and that its activity,
Speaker 1: of course, is generally correlated with unhappiness in the human experience. Quote. Therefore,
Speaker 1: it is theorized that prolonged periods of gold erected cognitive
Speaker 1: processes may decrease the mind wandering activity in the swd's
Speaker 1: brain because the pecunious activity has been decreased. They also
Speaker 1: theorized that the suppression of cortical areas related with the
Speaker 1: discriminational perception here leads to less selfish, egocentric behavior and
Speaker 1: increased levels of happiness. And they think that the decreased
Speaker 1: activity in the dorso lateral prefrontal cortex may contribute to
Speaker 1: the behavioral attribute of honesty. And additionally, there could be
Speaker 1: a neuroprotection advantage here as well, you know, against likes
Speaker 1: of say Alzheimer's and other conditions. Well, I guess, like
Speaker 1: a lot of neuroimaging and neurological studies, it it opens
Speaker 1: up a lot of possibilities that you should we should
Speaker 1: be careful to remember aren't necessarily proven yet, but are
Speaker 1: really interesting and worth looking into with other experiments. Yeah, Like,
Speaker 1: there are a lot of questions about the default mode network,
Speaker 1: for example, and and just about anything else you could
Speaker 1: point out in the human brain. Yeah, we've even talked
Speaker 1: about how there are some people I think who question
Speaker 1: the validity of the default mode network as a coherent
Speaker 1: concept and like is this really a thing? But um,
Speaker 1: but but there are others who advocate for it. So
Speaker 1: I don't know how to sort that question out. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I would say that some of the key takeaways from
Speaker 1: the study though, or that that first of all, this
Speaker 1: incredible act of spinning by by the Sufi Wherler's it
Speaker 1: is it is producing like physical changes in the brain,
Speaker 1: like there is there is neural plasticity involved here, and
Speaker 1: you know it is. It is also a meditative state
Speaker 1: they enter into and you don't have to it's not
Speaker 1: really a stretch to say that, Yes, the meditative states
Speaker 1: repetitive me meditative states, meditative meditative states that are engaged
Speaker 1: in with with a fair amount of frequency that has
Speaker 1: an effect on your resting um neural level. Uh so
Speaker 1: all of that is, you know, really fascinating, makes me,
Speaker 1: you know, respect this tradition even more, and I have
Speaker 1: to say, it makes me want to spend more in
Speaker 1: my life. Um well, wait, don't. I mean it seems
Speaker 1: difficult that, like, is it a thing where you'd have
Speaker 1: to do it a lot to get used to it
Speaker 1: enough to get the benefits from it. Is that the case,
Speaker 1: I guess, I mean, yes, that's certainly too well to
Speaker 1: spin at their level, it requires I mean they they
Speaker 1: prescribe what what I say, a thousand days of of
Speaker 1: practice to get to the point where you could actually
Speaker 1: partake of this ceremony. Um, but I mean just in
Speaker 1: terms of, like, on on on one level, it may
Speaker 1: I want to do it just because I I fail
Speaker 1: at it so much. Now, like the idea that I
Speaker 1: can change my brain, that I can change myself to
Speaker 1: spin better, like to do not feel like my soul
Speaker 1: has been ripped out of my body when I spin
Speaker 1: around five times on a yoga mat. Uh Like that
Speaker 1: that alone is attractive, you know, the the idea that like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm I can, I can change and become this slightly
Speaker 1: different version of myself. And you know, it's also worth
Speaker 1: noting that, you know, while this is the most um
Speaker 1: intriguing and probably the most extreme example of spinning dance,
Speaker 1: there are a lot of spinning and circular dance traditions
Speaker 1: and other regions of the world. You know, maybe not
Speaker 1: as intense, but certainly the circular form pops up in
Speaker 1: traditions around the world. So I wonder if if just
Speaker 1: even those cases, you have a certain level of a
Speaker 1: flow state and meditative calm that overcomes you when you're
Speaker 1: a part of it. I don't have a lot of
Speaker 1: direct experience with that, aside from what square dancing and
Speaker 1: p class when I was a kid, which is not
Speaker 1: at all the same thing. God, I also had to
Speaker 1: do square dancing and pe and that was bizarre, absolutely bizarre.
Speaker 1: It's a terrible time for it, um, I feel. But
Speaker 1: at the same time, after looking at all this, I'm like, yes,
Speaker 1: they were right to make us dance around in circles
Speaker 1: and move our bodies and spin. Kids need to spin,
Speaker 1: like we discussed in the previous episode, and uh yeah,
Speaker 1: why not make them square dance, I guess. So there's
Speaker 1: another aspect of Sufi whirling that I wanted to talk
Speaker 1: about because I found a strange paper. I alluded to
Speaker 1: this earlier, Uh, but just to reintroduce the concept again.
Speaker 1: So you watch one of these sufi whirling ceremonies, and
Speaker 1: there's the music, and there's just the human factor, you know,
Speaker 1: being interested in in other people's religious practices and all that.
Speaker 1: But there's this other aspect that makes the dance especially
Speaker 1: beautiful and interesting, and it's the movement of the dancers skirts. Now,
Speaker 1: you mentioned earlier that there's this symbolic role of the
Speaker 1: skirts representing, you know, the shroud of the ego, and
Speaker 1: I think that is there's something very much to that,
Speaker 1: even as it comes through in the way the dancers
Speaker 1: look from the outside. But there's also something about the
Speaker 1: skirts that's undeniably a part of the raw visual appeal
Speaker 1: of the dance to outside observers. As the dancer twirls,
Speaker 1: the skirt is sort of lifted into the air by
Speaker 1: the centripetal force of the rotation, but it is not
Speaker 1: lifted up in a perfect uniform circle. Instead, what you
Speaker 1: get are these odd, gorgeous hypnotic patterns of ripples with
Speaker 1: peaks and troughs, as if there were waves in a
Speaker 1: fluid moving through the fabric. And while watching it, it
Speaker 1: is very easy to just space out. It's like it's
Speaker 1: a visual stimulus that creates a feeling that's, at least
Speaker 1: to me, it's very similar to watching the undulations of
Speaker 1: a jellyfish. Absolutely, yeah, I agree. And so the question
Speaker 1: is what causes these sort of mesmerizing patterns of movement
Speaker 1: in the surface of these turning skirts. And believe it
Speaker 1: or not, there is a physics paper about this. Uh so,
Speaker 1: this is called whirling skirts and Rotating Cones in the
Speaker 1: New Journal of Physics published by Jamal Gouvin, H. J. Hannah,
Speaker 1: and Martin Michael Muller. And they put a very technical
Speaker 1: description to these hypnotic movements that I was just talking about.
Speaker 1: They call it, they say, quote steady dihedral e symmetric
Speaker 1: patterns with sharp peaks may be observed on a spinning
Speaker 1: skirt lagging behind the material flow of the fabric. And
Speaker 1: so this is quoted in a in a phiz dot
Speaker 1: or article by co author James Hannah quote. The dancers
Speaker 1: don't do much but spin around at a fixed speed,
Speaker 1: but their skirts show these very striking, long lived patterns
Speaker 1: with sharp, cusp like features, which seem rather counterintuitive. And
Speaker 1: I think it's partially that counterintuitive aspect that makes the
Speaker 1: skirts so interesting to watch. There there's a there's a
Speaker 1: soothing rhythm to how the skirts move, but they also
Speaker 1: seem to sort of defy physics. They don't look like
Speaker 1: they're moving in the way that they should. Are you
Speaker 1: watching an example, I'm picturing it in my head. Yeah,
Speaker 1: as as I said here staring into the zoom camera,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm imagining that's the hypnotic circular movements of the dancers. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Like sometimes the skirts kind of resemble the way that
Speaker 1: if you watch a helicopter blade spinning on film, if
Speaker 1: the shutter speed of the camera lines up in the
Speaker 1: right way with the rotation, uh with you know, with
Speaker 1: the rotations per minute of the helicopter blade, it will
Speaker 1: look like the blade is spinning backwards. Yeah, there's a
Speaker 1: similar kind of thing that sometimes goes on with the
Speaker 1: apparent peaks and waves in the skirt. So anyway, what
Speaker 1: what explains this? Well, I thought the answer that came
Speaker 1: up with here was pretty interesting. They found that the
Speaker 1: patterns of movement in a free flowing, nearly symmetrical cone
Speaker 1: shaped structure like the fabric of a dancers skirt, are
Speaker 1: largely influenced by the Coriolis force. Quote A perturbative analysis
Speaker 1: of nearly access symmetric cones shows that Coriolis forces are
Speaker 1: essential and establishing skirt like solutions. Skirt like solutions. And
Speaker 1: I love it when you know, physicists come up with
Speaker 1: like a physics way of describing something that you would
Speaker 1: never normally hear put into those terms. But so Coriolis
Speaker 1: forces are are themselves very interesting. They are responsible for,
Speaker 1: for example, determining the rotation of weather patterns in the
Speaker 1: atmosphere of Earth. The Coriolis effect is a name for
Speaker 1: the deflection of the motion of free flowing materials on
Speaker 1: a rotating surface. And this is one of those things
Speaker 1: that can be kind of hard to understand intuitively, but
Speaker 1: I'll do my best with an analogy. Imagine you're trying
Speaker 1: to play catch with someone, so you're throwing a baseball
Speaker 1: back and forth. But you're throwing a baseball back and
Speaker 1: forth on a merry go round. Suddenly you can't just
Speaker 1: throw in a straight line, right, You know. If I'm
Speaker 1: trying to throw to you on the other side of
Speaker 1: the merry go round and I throw straight at you,
Speaker 1: suddenly the ball from our point of view will appear
Speaker 1: to curve off target in some bizarre way. Right, And
Speaker 1: it's because you're moving. Right, I throw the ball in
Speaker 1: a straight line, it does go in a straight line,
Speaker 1: but you move, and so it looks like the ball
Speaker 1: just flew off to the side in the middle of
Speaker 1: its uh traveling. And it's because we're in a rotating
Speaker 1: reference frame. A similar thing takes place on larger rotating
Speaker 1: reference frames, such as the Earth itself. When you have
Speaker 1: free flowing patterns of fluid you know, such as weather,
Speaker 1: you know it's fluids moving through fluids, it's it's clouds
Speaker 1: or or winds moving through air. These are affected by
Speaker 1: the rotation of the Earth, causing winds to typically form
Speaker 1: clockwise patterns in the northern hemisphere and counterclockwise patterns in
Speaker 1: the southern hemisphere. And apparently, when a Sufi dancer twirls,
Speaker 1: the rotation of the skirt also gives rise to Coreola's
Speaker 1: forces in the patterns of the fabric, to quote James Hannaggan,
Speaker 1: and that that physic or article quote, the flow of
Speaker 1: a sheet of material is much more restrictive than the
Speaker 1: flow of the atmosphere, but nonetheless it results in Coreola's forces.
Speaker 1: What we found was that this flow and the associated
Speaker 1: Coriolis forces plays a crucial role in forming the dervish
Speaker 1: like patterns. And the authors actually came up with equations
Speaker 1: to describe these effects in free flowing conical materials like
Speaker 1: the fabric of a skirt. And so now you have
Speaker 1: an equation that can show you the skirt like solutions. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we will not read it out to you have to
Speaker 1: look it up for yourself because I found a similar
Speaker 1: situation there first episode where we talked about spinning kicks,
Speaker 1: and I found a post about the physics of a
Speaker 1: spin kick. But it was just it was just no
Speaker 1: sense in getting into it because I would just be
Speaker 1: me reading out an equation. But anyway, I don't For
Speaker 1: some reason, I found something oddly beautiful about this study. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, and it's it also seems kind of fitting right,
Speaker 1: given the mystical nature of it, you know, And and
Speaker 1: and the idea of there being this mathematical pattern underlying
Speaker 1: what we see when we uh witness this particular tradition,
Speaker 1: you know. Than now, speaking of cultural traditions about spinning
Speaker 1: around in circles, another one came to mind while we
Speaker 1: were getting ready for this episode, and it is something
Speaker 1: you may have seen at a baseball game. It is
Speaker 1: the dizzy bat race. You know, I had completely forgotten
Speaker 1: about this until you shared a clip of people doing it.
Speaker 1: So this is when the first step is you take
Speaker 1: a baseball bat and you put the I don't know,
Speaker 1: the club end on the on the ground. Does the
Speaker 1: end and I don't know, Yeah, And and then well,
Speaker 1: I guess it. I don't know if it matters. Maybe
Speaker 1: maybe it doesn't. But then one end of the bat
Speaker 1: is on the ground and the other end of the
Speaker 1: bat is on your forehead, so you're bending and then yeah,
Speaker 1: and you're bending over and then you start spinning around
Speaker 1: three Stooges style around it right, yep, yep, spin around
Speaker 1: in the circles. And then you gotta do something. You
Speaker 1: gotta run somewhere. I don't think it really matters after that.
Speaker 1: You just the goal is you get a couple of
Speaker 1: people out of the audience who've maybe been having a
Speaker 1: few stadium beers. I mean, that's probably watered down beer,
Speaker 1: but it's still beer. They've got some alcohol in their system. Alcohol.
Speaker 1: It does affect the vestibular system, as we know. Uh.
Speaker 1: And then and then you make it even worse by
Speaker 1: having them spin around a bunch of times and then
Speaker 1: say like, hey, run and try to catch this hot
Speaker 1: dog or something, and they'll typically stumble all over the place.
Speaker 1: In one example we were looking at, one of the
Speaker 1: guys runs straight into the stands and falls over the wall.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's quite a wipeout. But then he's right
Speaker 1: back in his feet. Yeah, liked you see that. Bra.
Speaker 1: So generally, as you said this, this sport is presented
Speaker 1: as a impromptu competition that one has not trained for.
Speaker 1: But based on everything we've discussed here, um, you know,
Speaker 1: training would be able to help you. Uh. You know,
Speaker 1: the untrained performance seems to be key to the dizzy
Speaker 1: bat race. But if you were to train for it,
Speaker 1: you could potentially be in a better position to excel
Speaker 1: at it. Oh yeah, like training like a Sufi dancer,
Speaker 1: or like a or like a ballerina or a figure skater.
Speaker 1: You just dizzy bat yourself for hours a day, every
Speaker 1: day until you can become the ultimate dizzy bat hustler.
Speaker 1: And like nobody knows when you go in that I'm
Speaker 1: going to be better at catching the hot dog or
Speaker 1: whatever it is. I don't know why I said hot dog.
Speaker 1: I guess that's another thing that's at baseball stadiums. You know,
Speaker 1: they may do a hot dog version. I guess one
Speaker 1: of the versions I was looking at is like you
Speaker 1: do the dizzy bat thing, You've you spin around and
Speaker 1: the you have to run to like first base and
Speaker 1: to see if you can run in a straight line,
Speaker 1: and then you're it's your time, right, It's like they
Speaker 1: time you on it. So, Um, I have a potential
Speaker 1: answer to this. It's not a scientific answer, but I
Speaker 1: come to it via another physical activity that involves spinning,
Speaker 1: and that's the world of professional wrestling. UM. So I
Speaker 1: knew we'd end up back here. I didn't expect to
Speaker 1: talk about about pro wrestling in this at all. Um beside, well,
Speaker 1: I guess I already did. I did bring it up briefly. Um.
Speaker 1: The elbow or something from from Japanese wrestling. Yeah, like
Speaker 1: a roaring elbow where you get you spin around and
Speaker 1: do an elbow and it's uh, you know, it's flashy looking.
Speaker 1: But but there are a couple of other more famous
Speaker 1: spinning maneuvers. So one of them, and tell me if
Speaker 1: you've seen this before, Joe. One is the airplane spin.
Speaker 1: This is when one wrestler puts another in a fireman's carry,
Speaker 1: you know, up on their shoulders, and then they spin
Speaker 1: around more or less like a whirling dervish before dumping
Speaker 1: them over and then the ideas you're both see. Okay.
Speaker 1: The other version is the giant swing, and in this one,
Speaker 1: one wrestler grabs the legs of the other, you know,
Speaker 1: like a wheelbarrow hold, and then spins them around like
Speaker 1: a centrifuge and then eventually releases them. And there are
Speaker 1: a couple of other variants, but these are the main
Speaker 1: spinning moves. So I guess the idea and that the
Speaker 1: giant swing is that you are attempting to spin around
Speaker 1: until the intracranial pressure of the blood flowing up to
Speaker 1: the top of their head kills them. Right. Is that
Speaker 1: is that an execution move? It's a finishing move and generally, yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess in Mortal Kombat, it would it would make
Speaker 1: the top of your head fly off and your brains
Speaker 1: splat again against the camera or something. But in pro
Speaker 1: pro wrestling, both of these moves generally play out this way,
Speaker 1: like you spin your opponent around until they're dizzy. You're
Speaker 1: dizzy as well, but then you take advantage and you
Speaker 1: either pin the person or or it gives you a
Speaker 1: chance to do another maneuver on them and then potentially win.
Speaker 1: A lot of times it's kind of played up for
Speaker 1: comedy though, like, oh, you did the airplane spin, and
Speaker 1: now both people are dizzy and they can't punch each other,
Speaker 1: and they're kind of doing a you know, kind of
Speaker 1: a dizzy bat humor spot, where like, oh, now we
Speaker 1: can't connect, and it's a going to kind of like
Speaker 1: break down the action for a little bit. It seems
Speaker 1: like a move that the bush Whackers would have done,
Speaker 1: remember them. Yeah, But you know, I've often dismissed the
Speaker 1: move because I think, oh, well, that just makes you
Speaker 1: both dizzy. It's not very realistic. What's the point of
Speaker 1: making your opponent really dizzy if you yourself are equally dizzy.
Speaker 1: But given everything we've talked about here, it absolutely makes
Speaker 1: sense that a wrestler who regular uses a spinny move
Speaker 1: or just trains and spinning would be less affected by
Speaker 1: the maneuver and could then you know, better utilize it
Speaker 1: in a match. Of course, the reverse would be true
Speaker 1: as well, right if you in in cafe, within the
Speaker 1: within the fiction of pro wrestling, If you knew you
Speaker 1: were going to go up against someone who uses a
Speaker 1: move like this, say uh Hiroshi Hayes or Cesarrow or
Speaker 1: Daniel Bryant, you could train and prepare for it so
Speaker 1: that they wouldn't be able to, you know, to to
Speaker 1: to to use it effectively against you. I don't think
Speaker 1: I don't think that's ever been used from a wrestling
Speaker 1: psychology standpoint, but it seems like it could be a
Speaker 1: good angle. I'm imagining the Ric Flair monologue. Now, you
Speaker 1: can't use that role on me, it's Rolex time. You
Speaker 1: could have a training montage of somebody spinning around in
Speaker 1: circles preparing for their match, and then, you know, making
Speaker 1: themselves less susceptible to the move. But but outside of
Speaker 1: the fictional world of the you know, the match itself.
Speaker 1: The other question, of course, is do wrestlers like the
Speaker 1: ones I just mentioned do they adapt to using the maneuver?
Speaker 1: You know, if you're using an airplane spin or a
Speaker 1: giant swing in you know, a couple of times a
Speaker 1: week or just regularly, you know in your matches, do
Speaker 1: you become less susceptible to dizziness? And I couldn't find
Speaker 1: a real here on this. I looked around a little
Speaker 1: bit for you know, interviews and all, but I did
Speaker 1: find footage of a dizzy bat competition featuring ww E wrestlers,
Speaker 1: and one of the wrestlers was this guy Cesaro who
Speaker 1: who uses this um this giant swing a lot in
Speaker 1: his matches and has also i think on one in
Speaker 1: one case he used a hundred revolutions in a single match.
Speaker 1: So so yeah, he'll really get spinning. And he has
Speaker 1: another spinning move called a UFO, which is basically an
Speaker 1: inverted airplane spin. It's also very impressive, uh to to
Speaker 1: see performed. So it raises like it's it is the question,
Speaker 1: how's he going to do in this? In this dizzy
Speaker 1: bat competition? And you know, this is very unscientific. He
Speaker 1: only was competing against I think two other people, but
Speaker 1: he did win. He had better time doing the dizzy
Speaker 1: bat thing and then running out the first base he
Speaker 1: had better time than either competitors. Interesting. Yeah, so there
Speaker 1: you go. Maybe maybe it does. Uh, maybe there is
Speaker 1: a way to prepare for the dizzy bat competition, and
Speaker 1: maybe spinning around a lot in pro wrestling does produce
Speaker 1: these results. I mean it makes complete sense based on
Speaker 1: everything we've looked at. I think what it means is
Speaker 1: that Cesarro has a future in ice skating or ballet
Speaker 1: probably so. I mean, professional dance and professional wrestling have
Speaker 1: a lot in common. And uh, I mean he's a hoss.
Speaker 1: He could do it well. What that makes me wonder
Speaker 1: is are there any well known pro wrestlers who were
Speaker 1: also professional dancers in something that is acknowledged as dance. Um,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm not sure on that offhand, it
Speaker 1: seems like there there might be. I mean, you have
Speaker 1: wrestlers coming in with all sorts of backgrounds, um, you know,
Speaker 1: certainly gymnastics backgrounds in some cases. So uh, I'm sure
Speaker 1: there's there's one out there that has some sort of
Speaker 1: a dance background. Hulkster was he also a square dancing champion?
Speaker 1: I don't know if the Hulkster was a square great
Speaker 1: dancing champion. No. Um, but Mike, I'm trying to remember
Speaker 1: if he ever did the giant swing. He might have
Speaker 1: I can't recall. While on the subject of of airplane
Speaker 1: spins as as an offensive move, I guess we've come
Speaker 1: full circle to like in Bison territory. There was another
Speaker 1: thing I was thinking about when we were doing this
Speaker 1: episode that was, um, it was a Simpsons episode with
Speaker 1: a certain type of spinning torture as hazing. It's the
Speaker 1: episode where Barton Lisa get enrolled in a military academy
Speaker 1: and there's a scene where they're being hazed and they're
Speaker 1: apparently strapped to airplane propellers, and then the the airplane runs,
Speaker 1: so they like spin around with the propeller. That's a
Speaker 1: different kind of spinning than we're usually talking about, because
Speaker 1: we're talking about spinning along a different access of the body.
Speaker 1: This would be again more like the giant swing. This
Speaker 1: would be like centrifuging you uh. And while it's funny
Speaker 1: in the show, I think I would have to say
Speaker 1: my suspicion is that this would be absolutely one fatal
Speaker 1: in reality. Just like you know, shove all the blood
Speaker 1: in your body up to the top of your head
Speaker 1: and kill you. Yeah, I mean it's it basically comes
Speaker 1: back to the Moonraker example that we talked about earlier,
Speaker 1: you know, where there's a scene and Moonraker where James
Speaker 1: Bond is put in a centrifuge as torture. Right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: the G forces simulator for astronauts. Yeah, except I think
Speaker 1: that's different because the way his body is oriented. The
Speaker 1: way I thought it was supposed to be was that
Speaker 1: the G forces would be operating the other way. It
Speaker 1: would be like taking the blood out of his head,
Speaker 1: you know, and pulling it towards his feet, like would normally, uh,
Speaker 1: though I don't know that's the way it would normally happen. Well, actually,
Speaker 1: I don't know, because if the astronauts are the astronauts
Speaker 1: are usually seeded, what with the back of their bodies
Speaker 1: facing the facing the the exhaust, right, So maybe that
Speaker 1: would just mean that the blood is pulled not up
Speaker 1: or down your body, but towards the back of your body,
Speaker 1: towards the back of your skull. Yeah, I guess. And
Speaker 1: it would also depend on the maneuver you're taking in
Speaker 1: the airplane. But but certainly when you're talking about the
Speaker 1: effects of of G force on the blood flow and
Speaker 1: the body tack really blood flow to the brain. That's
Speaker 1: where you can get into hypoxia territory where not enough
Speaker 1: blood and oxygen is reaching the brain and you can
Speaker 1: certainly lose consciousness that way, um, which is of course
Speaker 1: extra dangerous if you are also piloting an aircraft. Um,
Speaker 1: especially if you're piloting an aircraft that is to say,
Speaker 1: in a spin or something like that. So um, yeah,
Speaker 1: the idea of this being a potentially lethal way to
Speaker 1: torment Barton Lisa, absolutely, what is it? There's some movie
Speaker 1: where that's there's like a scene where a character has
Speaker 1: to execute a move in an airplane or a spaceship
Speaker 1: or something that they know is going to cause them
Speaker 1: to lose consciousness student gye forces and they have to
Speaker 1: like recover in time. Do you know does that ring
Speaker 1: in a bell for you? Oh? It vaguely does. I
Speaker 1: mean this kind of thing comes up a fair amount
Speaker 1: in in films about about to say fighter crafts. And
Speaker 1: also it could have been some of the usual suspects.
Speaker 1: They're like the like top Gun or that one where
Speaker 1: Clint Eastwood flies SR. Seventy one or some version of it.
Speaker 1: I don't know. That one. Yeah, I forget it was.
Speaker 1: I always wanted to watch it as a kid because
Speaker 1: I remember really loving the SR seventy one and the
Speaker 1: the SR seventy one Blackbird, which was right, you know,
Speaker 1: it was a reconnaissance aircraft that could fly super fast,
Speaker 1: super high altitude. Um, I think you got it a
Speaker 1: pretty high altitude as well. Not to be confused with
Speaker 1: the YouTube which just does you know, really long wings
Speaker 1: and his high altitude reconnaissance. But the SR seventy one
Speaker 1: was beautiful, and the he's supposed to be flying a
Speaker 1: fighter plane in this in this film that's based on
Speaker 1: the SR seventy one, or maybe they use an SR
Speaker 1: seventy one stand in. And I used to see the
Speaker 1: VHS copy and think, oh, that that looks like such
Speaker 1: a great movie. And I think later I did see
Speaker 1: it and it's it's not great, but it has a
Speaker 1: cool plane and it's so what can you do but
Speaker 1: to come back to video games, certainly, anyone who's ever
Speaker 1: played a flight simulator you know that, uh, if you
Speaker 1: you take on too many G forces, the screen is
Speaker 1: gonna go black, or the screen is gonna go red.
Speaker 1: You know you're gonna potitionally black out or red Out
Speaker 1: based on the g Forces. Oh. By the way, that
Speaker 1: Clint Eastwood movie was two Firefox. I had to look
Speaker 1: it up to make sure that I was, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: giving everybody the uh the the full recommend there. Directed
Speaker 1: by Clint Eastwood, starring Clint Eastwood. Um, I would have
Speaker 1: had Ronald Lacy in it. Uh of the Raiders have
Speaker 1: Lost Dark Fame, who played uh, you know, the the
Speaker 1: villainous taught uh the s S officer. Wait what, oh,
Speaker 1: I see you. I'm confusing this the name of the
Speaker 1: movie you're talking about with the movie that I watched
Speaker 1: as a child called fire Birds, not Firefox. This was
Speaker 1: a helicopter action movie starring Nicolas Cage, And yeah, I
Speaker 1: had Nicolas Cage and Tommy Lee Jones and Sean Young
Speaker 1: and I think some other recognizable character actors. And I
Speaker 1: remember there's a scene where Nicolas Cage has to like
Speaker 1: drive a car with one of his eyes covered up,
Speaker 1: looking through a periscope in order to train his brain. Oh. Nice,
Speaker 1: Well that's a perfect place to close out here, because
Speaker 1: so much of what we've talked about it comes down
Speaker 1: to training the brain um of the brain becoming used
Speaker 1: to what the body is is going through and and
Speaker 1: altering the way that it understands the signals that are
Speaker 1: delivered to it. All right, we're gonna go ahead and
Speaker 1: close out these episodes here then. UM, obviously we'd love
Speaker 1: to hear from everybody out there about these episodes. You know,
Speaker 1: what are your experiences with spinning around in circles related
Speaker 1: to say, dance? Uh? Do we have skaters and dancers?
Speaker 1: I know we have at least one uh individual listens
Speaker 1: to the show with the ballet background. We'd love to
Speaker 1: hear from them on this. Um. Also, do we have
Speaker 1: any Sufi listeners who would like to chime in on
Speaker 1: either the the experience of the Sufi whirling or just
Speaker 1: the place that it has within the religion? Uh? You know,
Speaker 1: basically any any anything you have to add or if
Speaker 1: you just have stuff about video games and movies, will
Speaker 1: also be happy to listen to you on on that
Speaker 1: front as well. In the meantime, if you like to
Speaker 1: check out other episodes of stuff to your mind, you
Speaker 1: know where to find it. You can find it anywhere
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Speaker 1: go there if you want to buy a shirt with
Speaker 1: a monster or logo on it. And uh, I, I
Speaker 1: know some of you are probably intrigued by the mention
Speaker 1: of the of the Whirling Dervishes, the video and the
Speaker 1: and of course the music. I'm gonna put a post
Speaker 1: up about that at my my website, Samoda music dot com. Uh.
Speaker 1: That's just a little impersonal blog that I do. Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, the low key blogging I call it. But
Speaker 1: I'll do a post there about about the music that
Speaker 1: I have a few links for you in some bedded
Speaker 1: video that you can check out if you so desire.
Speaker 1: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Seth
Speaker 1: Nicholas Johnson. If you'd like to get in touch with
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