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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of

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Speaker 1: My Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow

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Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick,

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Speaker 1: and we're back with part two of our series about

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Speaker 1: people spinning around in circles. That's right. Part one was

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Speaker 1: was essentially a breakdown of of why we've why we

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Speaker 1: feel dizzy when we spin around in circles, and then

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Speaker 1: we we also went in just a little bit into

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Speaker 1: the art of spinning around in circles, particularly as it

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Speaker 1: relates to figure skaters and ballet dancers. Now, while figure

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Speaker 1: skaters and ballet dancers, I would say regularly practice feats

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Speaker 1: that I am in all of in terms of, you know,

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Speaker 1: their athleticism and their ability to spin around and stuff

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Speaker 1: and still execute precise movements afterwards, I gotta say, there's

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Speaker 1: one thing that that maybe makes them not that impressive,

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Speaker 1: which is, you know, they only spin for a few

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Speaker 1: seconds at a time. What if you were to spin

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Speaker 1: around in a dance performance that lasted for minutes and

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Speaker 1: minutes on end, maybe hours, who knows. Yeah, And this

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Speaker 1: we're getting into the realm of of the whirling dervishes,

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Speaker 1: of of Sufi mysticism, the Sufi Whirlers UH that you

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Speaker 1: find mostly isolated in in modern day Turkey, but in

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Speaker 1: some other regions as well. And if you haven't seen

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Speaker 1: footage of this and and certainly heard the corresponding music,

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Speaker 1: I really encourage you to to check it out because

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Speaker 1: it is. It is phenomenal. It is just to watch it.

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Speaker 1: It's a very meditative experience I find. I've always found

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Speaker 1: this very intriguing. I think you know I've seen some

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Speaker 1: clips on TV at some point, and then back in

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Speaker 1: the nineties, at one point, because I was getting increasingly

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Speaker 1: into world music and into dead Can dance and stuff,

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Speaker 1: I picked up an album off Hemisphere Records titled Mevlana

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Speaker 1: Music of the Whirling Dervishes, and and really I was

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Speaker 1: blown away by it. Uh I. I looked it up

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Speaker 1: again and I don't think this particular album is available anymore,

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Speaker 1: but you can find the The particular musician is a

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Speaker 1: nes A usual that's an easy I h u z

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Speaker 1: e l and UH. A couple of their albums are

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Speaker 1: available to stream. UH. It's it's it's really interesting stuff.

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Speaker 1: Now I'm not all that well versed in Middle Eastern music,

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Speaker 1: but it it does seem to have this very rhythmic

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Speaker 1: quality that inspires a certain kind of circular movement even

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Speaker 1: in the mind. Oh I, I really enjoyed the music

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Speaker 1: too when you shared it with me. Uh, I don't

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Speaker 1: know if I found myself thinking in circular ways. Did

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Speaker 1: you find yourself ruminating while listening to it? Yeah? I

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Speaker 1: played some of I played Usels music for several hours

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Speaker 1: while working on notes for for these episodes U the

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Speaker 1: other day, and yeah, I found it. I mean, granted,

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Speaker 1: you know, part of it is I am thinking about

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Speaker 1: people spinning around in circles and then I'm listening to

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Speaker 1: this music that is of course uh in a really

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Speaker 1: tied to that practice. But but yeah, I found it.

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Speaker 1: Found it give me this kind of like calming, circular feeling,

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Speaker 1: and really I think it it contributed to yesterday being

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Speaker 1: a pretty good day. Nice. Yeah. Watching Sufi whirling dances

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Speaker 1: is UM it's kind of hard to describe exactly the

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Speaker 1: feeling of what's so beautiful about it. It is not

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Speaker 1: like a lot of other dances that UM that operate

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Speaker 1: by sort of like surprise, where you know you don't

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Speaker 1: know what moves someone's going to do next. The Sufi

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Speaker 1: whirling dances are extremely monotonous. I mean, they're basically just

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Speaker 1: There might be versions that offers something else, but the

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Speaker 1: versions I've seen mainly just feature this repetitive turning in place.

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Speaker 1: And yet it is extremely beautiful as a form of dance. Uh,

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Speaker 1: And I think it has something to do with the

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Speaker 1: thing I want to come back to later in this episode,

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Speaker 1: which is the particular movement of the dancers skirts as

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Speaker 1: they twirl. There's a kind of like beautiful ge I'm

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Speaker 1: a treat to that. And uh, there was actually a

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Speaker 1: paper I came across the addressed how that happens. But um,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, it's strange that that's such a in a

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Speaker 1: way conceptually straightforward type of dance would be so interesting

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Speaker 1: to watch for so long. Yeah, there's a real fluidity

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Speaker 1: to it. And and you know, we were talking about

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Speaker 1: watching it because of course that's that's that's my experience

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Speaker 1: with it, uh, seeing it done, listening to the music,

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Speaker 1: and it's my understanding that if you you know, if

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Speaker 1: you're if you're to travel to say Turkey, you can

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Speaker 1: certainly as a tourist see some of it today, observe

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Speaker 1: it as a tourist, but of course it's really based

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Speaker 1: more in the experience of the dance of being the dancer.

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Speaker 1: And I guess you can say that's kind of the

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Speaker 1: case with a lot of dance, like it's there's dance

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Speaker 1: to watch, but the dance is also the experience, and

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Speaker 1: to be the dancer is to be within the system

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Speaker 1: of movement. Yeah, so let's let's unpack things a little bit. Yes.

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Speaker 1: Sufi Islam. Sufi Ism is the mystical branch of Islam

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Speaker 1: in which the practitioner seeks divine love and knowledge through

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Speaker 1: the direct experience of God. Uh. It entails different mystical

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Speaker 1: paths towards this goal, but the one we're gonna be

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Speaker 1: talking about here is, of course, this form of dance.

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Speaker 1: The words sufi itself derives from the Arabic for wool,

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Speaker 1: as early Islamic aesthetics individuals who practice the denial of

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Speaker 1: physical or psychological desires dressed in woolen garments, and Islamic

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Speaker 1: mysticism is also known is uh tassa wolf, which literally

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Speaker 1: means to dress in wool. The movement originally stirred up

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Speaker 1: between six sixty one and seven forty nine c e.

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Speaker 1: Apparently in response to perceptions of worldliness in Islamic practice

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Speaker 1: at the time. I find it interesting that the mystical

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Speaker 1: tradition can sort of arise as a form of almost

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Speaker 1: any religion. Like that, you can take almost any religion

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Speaker 1: and then there will there can be a mysticism interpretation

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Speaker 1: of it, which again is often focused on um individual

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Speaker 1: experience and people having practices such as meditation or other

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Speaker 1: practices to alter the state of consciousness to make themselves

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Speaker 1: have what they believe to be a direct experience of

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Speaker 1: the divine in some way. And that there there's Christian mysticism,

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Speaker 1: and there's Islamic mysticism, and there's a mystical face of

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Speaker 1: almost any religion you can imagine. Yeah, absolutely, and and

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Speaker 1: and of course in pretty much any religion you can

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Speaker 1: look at to it, it's a divide that can create problems,

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Speaker 1: that can can create conflict as well. Um So again,

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Speaker 1: out of this, out of Sufi Islam, we we see

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Speaker 1: the Sufi whirling emerge. And I imagine a lot of

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Speaker 1: you out there have heard of a key individual in this,

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Speaker 1: and that is the Persian poet Roomi, who lived twelve

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Speaker 1: or seven through twelve seventy three, and he himself was

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Speaker 1: a Sufi mystic again. He dies in twelve seventy three

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Speaker 1: see and afterwards his followers and his son Sultan Wallad

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Speaker 1: create themv Levy Order, an organization of whirling dervishes who

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Speaker 1: sought to experience God through elaborate rituals of dance and music.

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Speaker 1: And this was formed in thirteen twelve in the Turkish

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Speaker 1: city of Kanya. Now many of you may have seen,

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Speaker 1: you know, images and videos of of Sufi whirling and uh,

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Speaker 1: and you know the dervishes where these tall camel hair

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Speaker 1: hats that are said to represent the tombstone of the ego,

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Speaker 1: which I really like. Uh. And then they have these

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Speaker 1: wide white skirts that twirl around and of course these

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Speaker 1: are very visually impressive and certainly play on that concept

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Speaker 1: of whirling and turning. But these are said to represent

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Speaker 1: the egos shroud. Oh. I love that. And it's funny

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Speaker 1: because that might be a little bit more literal than

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Speaker 1: people would think. Well, I mean, I guess you can be.

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Speaker 1: You can't have something that's too literal if you're talking

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Speaker 1: about the ego, which is an intangible concept. But um,

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Speaker 1: the way in which it is somewhat literal is that

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Speaker 1: it's not just you are wearing a symbolic piece of dress.

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Speaker 1: But that when you watch somebody practicing a Sufi whirling dance,

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Speaker 1: you will, I think very often find yourself not looking

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Speaker 1: at the person and not looking at their face, but

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Speaker 1: looking at the twirling skirt. The twirling skirt almost becomes

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Speaker 1: the persons. So it's a kind of second order vanishing

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Speaker 1: of the identity or the ego. Yeah. Yeah, So the

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Speaker 1: big ceremony here is the semi ceremony, and in the

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Speaker 1: in this ceremony, the Dervish dancers rotate anti clockwise around

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Speaker 1: the vertical access of their bodies while also rotating around

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Speaker 1: the other dancers. It's all set to this this wonderful music,

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Speaker 1: and it's intended to be a meditative experience, a highly

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Speaker 1: meditative experience by which for the dancers their material self

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Speaker 1: falls away and a state of oneness is experienced. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and so you can obviously look at the the religious,

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Speaker 1: the symbolic, the psycle logical importance and significance of this dance.

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Speaker 1: But another way to think about the stance is just

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Speaker 1: as a physical act. And it comes back to questions

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Speaker 1: that I you know that we brought up in our

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Speaker 1: earlier episode in the first part of this series, which

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Speaker 1: is I watch it and I think, just on a

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Speaker 1: physiological level, how do you do that without becoming so

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Speaker 1: dizzy that you have to stop? Yeah, because we're talking

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Speaker 1: about a lot of spinning. You may have just seen

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Speaker 1: clips of this, but the dancers will spend continuously for

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Speaker 1: a solid hour with something like thirty spins per minute

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Speaker 1: the performance. And this they performed this without experiencing vertico,

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Speaker 1: without you know, feeling dizzy, following a reported thousand days

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Speaker 1: of training within them of Levy houses. Uh to to

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Speaker 1: give another number to you, According to the Guinness Book

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Speaker 1: of World Records, the most Sufi whirling revolutions in one

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Speaker 1: hour for a mail uh that The record went to

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Speaker 1: um Schaffik Ibrahim on January fifth, two thousand twelve for

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Speaker 1: two thousand, nine d and five spins in a single hour. Wow. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I have no words. That's that's so many spins. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's just it's it's a tremendous amount of spinning. Um.

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Speaker 1: And and not only is the individual not like physically

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Speaker 1: ill from it, not only are they they you know,

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Speaker 1: retaining this uh, this fluid movement and this elegance and

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Speaker 1: they're not crashing into each other, the walls. Uh they're

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Speaker 1: keeping it beautiful, but they're also uh, you know, they're

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Speaker 1: said to have this this this meditative experience throughout it all.

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Speaker 1: So it's not you know, dizziness is in many ways

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Speaker 1: feels like the opposite of of a meditative experience. I mean,

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Speaker 1: into a certain extent, you could, I guess you compare

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Speaker 1: some things about it. But but yeah, what whatever, whatever

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Speaker 1: is going on in the mind of the of the

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Speaker 1: Sufi whirler, of the of the whirling dervish, it is

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Speaker 1: not a state of dizzy chaos. Uh So it's it's fascinating, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I would also think of dizziness is sort

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Speaker 1: of the opposite of a meditative state. Dizziness makes you

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Speaker 1: hyper aware of your body and makes it really difficult

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Speaker 1: to focus your mind, right, I guess then the main

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Speaker 1: comparison would be, well, you're you're living in the now now,

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Speaker 1: if you're, if you're you're clutching your head on the ground,

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Speaker 1: but not in the way that you want to feel

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Speaker 1: in the moment. So I looked into this and I

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Speaker 1: found an interesting paper titled a Possible role of Prolonged

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Speaker 1: whirling episodes on structural plasticity of the cortical networks and

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Speaker 1: altered vertigo perception the cortex of Sufi Whirling Dervishes by

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Speaker 1: cal mac at All and this was this was combining

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Speaker 1: researchers from New Zealand, the Netherlands and Turkey particularly. Their

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Speaker 1: study looked at quote potential structural cortical plasticity unquote in

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Speaker 1: Sufi Whirling Dervishes. These s w d s as the abbreviation,

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Speaker 1: because again we're talking about a level of sustained spinning

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Speaker 1: that most healthy adults are not going to be able

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Speaker 1: to hand handle without experiencing vertigo. As they put it, quote,

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Speaker 1: this unique whirling based meditation style of Sufi Whirling Dervishes

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Speaker 1: achieves extraordinary physiological outcomes that overcome vertico and balance impairment

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Speaker 1: which would be expected after prolonged times of whirling. So

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Speaker 1: they looked at quote potential relationship of the motion body

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Speaker 1: perception related cortical networks and the prolonged term of whirling

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Speaker 1: ability without vertigo or dizziness. So a note here again

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Speaker 1: is the vestibular system, which of course we went into

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Speaker 1: and defined in the UH in the first episode, you know,

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Speaker 1: related to inner ear and our the inner ear in

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Speaker 1: our sense of balance. They point out that vestibular processing

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Speaker 1: is involved not only in space perception and locomotion, but

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Speaker 1: also in cognitive perceptions of self. And so there is

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Speaker 1: this connection, they say, between the vestibular system and the

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Speaker 1: default mode network as well, something we've also discussed on

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Speaker 1: the show quite a bit, tied to self awareness, to consciousness,

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Speaker 1: to embodiment, but also in many cases unhappiness. You know,

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Speaker 1: this this dwelling on what has happened in the past,

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Speaker 1: what has happened to me, what is happening in the footle,

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Speaker 1: happening in uh to me in the future, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: And and you know, getting away from that now nous

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Speaker 1: that we often associate with a meditative calm. Yeah, the

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Speaker 1: default mode network, I think, is highly associated with cognitive

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Speaker 1: patterns that are focused on the self, thinking about self,

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Speaker 1: and making judgments about the self. And I mean, what's

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Speaker 1: more miserable than that. Yeah. I think it's interesting too

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Speaker 1: that we're talking about wheeling and spinning, because there's you know,

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Speaker 1: the sort of thinking associated with the default mode network

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Speaker 1: sometimes takes the form of a wheel and other belief systems,

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Speaker 1: you know, like some some treatments or interpretations of the

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Speaker 1: like the wheel of being in in Buddhism kind of

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Speaker 1: relate to this, you know, or just sort of the

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Speaker 1: feeling of like, oh, I'm on the I'm on the

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Speaker 1: hamster wheel of my own default mode network right now,

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Speaker 1: I've got to eject myself from that wheel, uh and

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Speaker 1: do something with my time. So the question is does

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Speaker 1: prolonged whirling contribute to structural changes in the networks of

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Speaker 1: the default mode network and self perception in addition to

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Speaker 1: motion perception related networks. So the authors point out that

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Speaker 1: previous studies have observed, first of all, that decreased cortical

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Speaker 1: thickness and meditator's brains relate to the posterior singulate cortex

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Speaker 1: or PCC and default mode network also decreased activity in

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Speaker 1: the default mode network as well as long And also

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Speaker 1: they point out long term meditation practices associated with altered

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Speaker 1: resting brain activity, so long lasting activity changes that persist

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Speaker 1: in the brain. In a way, you could think about

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Speaker 1: meditation as a way of practicing control over what the

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Speaker 1: brain does win at rest, right, Yeah, And you know

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Speaker 1: it's it's you know, we we've talked about aitation on

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Speaker 1: the show in the past. I'm sure we'll continue too,

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Speaker 1: because it is, it can it can feel very elusive

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Speaker 1: at times, and I think part of it comes down

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Speaker 1: to this connection between the mind and body. You know

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Speaker 1: that that UM. I mean, that's why I think a

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Speaker 1: lot of us find meditation in meditative states or even

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Speaker 1: of the flow state in activities that are physical, you know,

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Speaker 1: like in in yoga for instance, um or or um

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Speaker 1: you know, even you know, other type forms of exercise,

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Speaker 1: swimming laps, running laps, going for a jog, that sort

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Speaker 1: of thing. Yes, though I feel like I would identify

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Speaker 1: more of that meditative type flow state in physical tasks

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Speaker 1: that also require some degree of constant uh sort of

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Speaker 1: mental engagement, more so than say jogging does U you know,

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Speaker 1: Like I've heard some people complain that maybe they can

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Speaker 1: enjoy sports, but they find quote exercise boring. And I

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Speaker 1: think what they're thinking of is like running on a treadmill,

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Speaker 1: in which like in which case, um, you are engaging

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Speaker 1: your body, but you are not you are not being

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Speaker 1: faced with tasks. You know, there's not like any problems

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Speaker 1: for your brain to solve the way there is when

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Speaker 1: you're say playing a sport or something or doing something

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Speaker 1: with UM, doing something with like variable activities throughout, such

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Speaker 1: as like a yoga practice or a or a you know,

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Speaker 1: a dance routine or something. Yeah. Well, but I guess

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Speaker 1: if you're, like say, jogging around the neighborhood, you're having

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Speaker 1: to solve various problems, right like, Okay, I'm gonna not

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Speaker 1: run onto that sidewalk that's all crooked, I'm gonna jump

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Speaker 1: over that dog, and I'm not going to step in

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Speaker 1: that that or that. Right though. It's funny because I

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Speaker 1: feel like that just manifests as extreme annoyance. Yeah, I guess. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it comes like there's a thin line sometimes between uh,

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Speaker 1: tasks that are fulfilling and tasks that are just a chore.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we've talked before about how, um, sometimes when

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Speaker 1: you're driving in a car, it can make other people

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Speaker 1: just appear as obstacles to you. There's this kind of

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Speaker 1: horrible desnsitization that goes on, and we talked about one

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Speaker 1: reason for that being that, um that perhaps the you know,

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Speaker 1: updating the body schema to include the car makes you

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Speaker 1: feel bigger looking at people through the glass of the windshield,

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Speaker 1: operating on you know, the different rules of the control

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Speaker 1: traffic versus control foot movements. Those things could be separating you.

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Speaker 1: But I think another one that maybe we didn't consider

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Speaker 1: enough when we've talked about this in the past is

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Speaker 1: just speed, because when you're out running on the sidewalk,

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Speaker 1: it seems like you have a very different relationship to

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Speaker 1: other people than if you're out walking. When you're out running,

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Speaker 1: you start to view other people as like obstacles in

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Speaker 1: the same kind of way you do you're when you're

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Speaker 1: in a car. You're like persons in my way. They're

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Speaker 1: not even really a person. This is just like a

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Speaker 1: sack of meat that I need to get around. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm not myself a runner, but I do

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Speaker 1: I get I get hints of that from other runners sometimes.

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Speaker 1: So for for this particular study, the authors are going

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Speaker 1: to look at um at a Sufi whirlers. Now. One

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Speaker 1: thing they note, though, is that the practice of MeV

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Speaker 1: Levi ceremonies they're not as robust as they were prior

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Speaker 1: to the twentieth century due to a secular policies that

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Speaker 1: were enforced. So a lot of what remains today apparently

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Speaker 1: isn't as rigorous and is often aimed at at tourist audiences.

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Speaker 1: So it's difficult to study quote the traditional physical and

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Speaker 1: spiritual method involved here. As a result, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: not a huge sample size they're working with. So they

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Speaker 1: looked at eight males and two females adults right handed

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Speaker 1: traditional Sufi whirling dervishes with more than eight years of

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Speaker 1: whirling meditation experience, so the average with something like ten

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Speaker 1: and a half years of whirling uh, which I think

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Speaker 1: broke down about like two whirling sessions per week to

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Speaker 1: keep the practice up. They also had a ten person

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Speaker 1: control group that was otherwise matched up with the attributes

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Speaker 1: of of the individuals that were themselves whirlers. They performed

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Speaker 1: m r I scans and found an average difference in

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Speaker 1: cortical thickness of point ten millimeters for the left hemisphere

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Speaker 1: of the brain and point fifteen millimeters for the right

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Speaker 1: hemisphere of the brain. So they present this as proof

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Speaker 1: of structural plasticity induced by the whirling meditations of Sufi

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Speaker 1: whirling dervishes. Now, one of the take homes from this

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Speaker 1: study is that this sort of information could lead to

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Speaker 1: some improvements in vertigo therapy UH. And I also imagine

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Speaker 1: it goes back to what we mentioned in the last

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Speaker 1: episode about the more we understand this sort of thing,

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Speaker 1: the more we can understand just to how the brain functions,

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Speaker 1: how the brain can heal itself, that sort of thing.

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Speaker 1: But they also stress that there's a lot of possibility

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Speaker 1: in the the potential mood enhancing effect of the defined

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Speaker 1: structurally plastinated cortical areas um and and and how that

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Speaker 1: is worth consideration. So they point out that the default

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Speaker 1: mode network is active except when it is suppressed by

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Speaker 1: other networks or stimulated by other states, and that its activity,

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Speaker 1: of course, is generally correlated with unhappiness in the human experience. Quote. Therefore,

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Speaker 1: it is theorized that prolonged periods of gold erected cognitive

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Speaker 1: processes may decrease the mind wandering activity in the swd's

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Speaker 1: brain because the pecunious activity has been decreased. They also

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Speaker 1: theorized that the suppression of cortical areas related with the

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Speaker 1: discriminational perception here leads to less selfish, egocentric behavior and

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Speaker 1: increased levels of happiness. And they think that the decreased

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Speaker 1: activity in the dorso lateral prefrontal cortex may contribute to

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Speaker 1: the behavioral attribute of honesty. And additionally, there could be

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Speaker 1: a neuroprotection advantage here as well, you know, against likes

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Speaker 1: of say Alzheimer's and other conditions. Well, I guess, like

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Speaker 1: a lot of neuroimaging and neurological studies, it it opens

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Speaker 1: up a lot of possibilities that you should we should

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Speaker 1: be careful to remember aren't necessarily proven yet, but are

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Speaker 1: really interesting and worth looking into with other experiments. Yeah, Like,

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of questions about the default mode network,

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Speaker 1: for example, and and just about anything else you could

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Speaker 1: point out in the human brain. Yeah, we've even talked

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Speaker 1: about how there are some people I think who question

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Speaker 1: the validity of the default mode network as a coherent

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Speaker 1: concept and like is this really a thing? But um,

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Speaker 1: but but there are others who advocate for it. So

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Speaker 1: I don't know how to sort that question out. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I would say that some of the key takeaways from

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Speaker 1: the study though, or that that first of all, this

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Speaker 1: incredible act of spinning by by the Sufi Wherler's it

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Speaker 1: is it is producing like physical changes in the brain,

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Speaker 1: like there is there is neural plasticity involved here, and

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Speaker 1: you know it is. It is also a meditative state

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Speaker 1: they enter into and you don't have to it's not

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Speaker 1: really a stretch to say that, Yes, the meditative states

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Speaker 1: repetitive me meditative states, meditative meditative states that are engaged

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Speaker 1: in with with a fair amount of frequency that has

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Speaker 1: an effect on your resting um neural level. Uh so

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Speaker 1: all of that is, you know, really fascinating, makes me,

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Speaker 1: you know, respect this tradition even more, and I have

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Speaker 1: to say, it makes me want to spend more in

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Speaker 1: my life. Um well, wait, don't. I mean it seems

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Speaker 1: difficult that, like, is it a thing where you'd have

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Speaker 1: to do it a lot to get used to it

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Speaker 1: enough to get the benefits from it. Is that the case,

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Speaker 1: I guess, I mean, yes, that's certainly too well to

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Speaker 1: spin at their level, it requires I mean they they

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Speaker 1: prescribe what what I say, a thousand days of of

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Speaker 1: practice to get to the point where you could actually

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Speaker 1: partake of this ceremony. Um, but I mean just in

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Speaker 1: terms of, like, on on on one level, it may

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Speaker 1: I want to do it just because I I fail

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Speaker 1: at it so much. Now, like the idea that I

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Speaker 1: can change my brain, that I can change myself to

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Speaker 1: spin better, like to do not feel like my soul

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Speaker 1: has been ripped out of my body when I spin

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Speaker 1: around five times on a yoga mat. Uh Like that

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Speaker 1: that alone is attractive, you know, the the idea that like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm I can, I can change and become this slightly

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Speaker 1: different version of myself. And you know, it's also worth

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Speaker 1: noting that, you know, while this is the most um

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Speaker 1: intriguing and probably the most extreme example of spinning dance,

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of spinning and circular dance traditions

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Speaker 1: and other regions of the world. You know, maybe not

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Speaker 1: as intense, but certainly the circular form pops up in

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Speaker 1: traditions around the world. So I wonder if if just

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Speaker 1: even those cases, you have a certain level of a

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Speaker 1: flow state and meditative calm that overcomes you when you're

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Speaker 1: a part of it. I don't have a lot of

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Speaker 1: direct experience with that, aside from what square dancing and

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Speaker 1: p class when I was a kid, which is not

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Speaker 1: at all the same thing. God, I also had to

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Speaker 1: do square dancing and pe and that was bizarre, absolutely bizarre.

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Speaker 1: It's a terrible time for it, um, I feel. But

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Speaker 1: at the same time, after looking at all this, I'm like, yes,

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Speaker 1: they were right to make us dance around in circles

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Speaker 1: and move our bodies and spin. Kids need to spin,

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Speaker 1: like we discussed in the previous episode, and uh yeah,

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Speaker 1: why not make them square dance, I guess. So there's

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Speaker 1: another aspect of Sufi whirling that I wanted to talk

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Speaker 1: about because I found a strange paper. I alluded to

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Speaker 1: this earlier, Uh, but just to reintroduce the concept again.

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Speaker 1: So you watch one of these sufi whirling ceremonies, and

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Speaker 1: there's the music, and there's just the human factor, you know,

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Speaker 1: being interested in in other people's religious practices and all that.

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Speaker 1: But there's this other aspect that makes the dance especially

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Speaker 1: beautiful and interesting, and it's the movement of the dancers skirts. Now,

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Speaker 1: you mentioned earlier that there's this symbolic role of the

427
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 1: skirts representing, you know, the shroud of the ego, and

428
00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,639
Speaker 1: I think that is there's something very much to that,

429
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 1: even as it comes through in the way the dancers

430
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,439
Speaker 1: look from the outside. But there's also something about the

431
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 1: skirts that's undeniably a part of the raw visual appeal

432
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:14,119
Speaker 1: of the dance to outside observers. As the dancer twirls,

433
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:18,160
Speaker 1: the skirt is sort of lifted into the air by

434
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,479
Speaker 1: the centripetal force of the rotation, but it is not

435
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 1: lifted up in a perfect uniform circle. Instead, what you

436
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 1: get are these odd, gorgeous hypnotic patterns of ripples with

437
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 1: peaks and troughs, as if there were waves in a

438
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:38,480
Speaker 1: fluid moving through the fabric. And while watching it, it

439
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 1: is very easy to just space out. It's like it's

440
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 1: a visual stimulus that creates a feeling that's, at least

441
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:48,760
Speaker 1: to me, it's very similar to watching the undulations of

442
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,720
Speaker 1: a jellyfish. Absolutely, yeah, I agree. And so the question

443
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,719
Speaker 1: is what causes these sort of mesmerizing patterns of movement

444
00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 1: in the surface of these turning skirts. And believe it

445
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 1: or not, there is a physics paper about this. Uh so,

446
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:08,560
Speaker 1: this is called whirling skirts and Rotating Cones in the

447
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:14,880
Speaker 1: New Journal of Physics published by Jamal Gouvin, H. J. Hannah,

448
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:20,119
Speaker 1: and Martin Michael Muller. And they put a very technical

449
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 1: description to these hypnotic movements that I was just talking about.

450
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:27,639
Speaker 1: They call it, they say, quote steady dihedral e symmetric

451
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 1: patterns with sharp peaks may be observed on a spinning

452
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 1: skirt lagging behind the material flow of the fabric. And

453
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,440
Speaker 1: so this is quoted in a in a phiz dot

454
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:43,680
Speaker 1: or article by co author James Hannah quote. The dancers

455
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,639
Speaker 1: don't do much but spin around at a fixed speed,

456
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:51,119
Speaker 1: but their skirts show these very striking, long lived patterns

457
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 1: with sharp, cusp like features, which seem rather counterintuitive. And

458
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,439
Speaker 1: I think it's partially that counterintuitive aspect that makes the

459
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,119
Speaker 1: skirts so interesting to watch. There there's a there's a

460
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 1: soothing rhythm to how the skirts move, but they also

461
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 1: seem to sort of defy physics. They don't look like

462
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 1: they're moving in the way that they should. Are you

463
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:15,480
Speaker 1: watching an example, I'm picturing it in my head. Yeah,

464
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 1: as as I said here staring into the zoom camera,

465
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 1: I'm I'm imagining that's the hypnotic circular movements of the dancers. Yeah. Yeah,

466
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 1: Like sometimes the skirts kind of resemble the way that

467
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 1: if you watch a helicopter blade spinning on film, if

468
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,879
Speaker 1: the shutter speed of the camera lines up in the

469
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 1: right way with the rotation, uh with you know, with

470
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 1: the rotations per minute of the helicopter blade, it will

471
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 1: look like the blade is spinning backwards. Yeah, there's a

472
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 1: similar kind of thing that sometimes goes on with the

473
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 1: apparent peaks and waves in the skirt. So anyway, what

474
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 1: what explains this? Well, I thought the answer that came

475
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 1: up with here was pretty interesting. They found that the

476
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:59,360
Speaker 1: patterns of movement in a free flowing, nearly symmetrical cone

477
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 1: shaped structure like the fabric of a dancers skirt, are

478
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:08,160
Speaker 1: largely influenced by the Coriolis force. Quote A perturbative analysis

479
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:12,359
Speaker 1: of nearly access symmetric cones shows that Coriolis forces are

480
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 1: essential and establishing skirt like solutions. Skirt like solutions. And

481
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 1: I love it when you know, physicists come up with

482
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,120
Speaker 1: like a physics way of describing something that you would

483
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 1: never normally hear put into those terms. But so Coriolis

484
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:35,640
Speaker 1: forces are are themselves very interesting. They are responsible for,

485
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 1: for example, determining the rotation of weather patterns in the

486
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 1: atmosphere of Earth. The Coriolis effect is a name for

487
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:47,959
Speaker 1: the deflection of the motion of free flowing materials on

488
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 1: a rotating surface. And this is one of those things

489
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 1: that can be kind of hard to understand intuitively, but

490
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 1: I'll do my best with an analogy. Imagine you're trying

491
00:28:57,120 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 1: to play catch with someone, so you're throwing a baseball

492
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 1: back and forth. But you're throwing a baseball back and

493
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 1: forth on a merry go round. Suddenly you can't just

494
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 1: throw in a straight line, right, You know. If I'm

495
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 1: trying to throw to you on the other side of

496
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 1: the merry go round and I throw straight at you,

497
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 1: suddenly the ball from our point of view will appear

498
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:22,959
Speaker 1: to curve off target in some bizarre way. Right, And

499
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 1: it's because you're moving. Right, I throw the ball in

500
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 1: a straight line, it does go in a straight line,

501
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 1: but you move, and so it looks like the ball

502
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 1: just flew off to the side in the middle of

503
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 1: its uh traveling. And it's because we're in a rotating

504
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 1: reference frame. A similar thing takes place on larger rotating

505
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 1: reference frames, such as the Earth itself. When you have

506
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: free flowing patterns of fluid you know, such as weather,

507
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 1: you know it's fluids moving through fluids, it's it's clouds

508
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 1: or or winds moving through air. These are affected by

509
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 1: the rotation of the Earth, causing winds to typically form

510
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 1: clockwise patterns in the northern hemisphere and counterclockwise patterns in

511
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 1: the southern hemisphere. And apparently, when a Sufi dancer twirls,

512
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 1: the rotation of the skirt also gives rise to Coreola's

513
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 1: forces in the patterns of the fabric, to quote James Hannaggan,

514
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 1: and that that physic or article quote, the flow of

515
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 1: a sheet of material is much more restrictive than the

516
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 1: flow of the atmosphere, but nonetheless it results in Coreola's forces.

517
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 1: What we found was that this flow and the associated

518
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:32,720
Speaker 1: Coriolis forces plays a crucial role in forming the dervish

519
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 1: like patterns. And the authors actually came up with equations

520
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 1: to describe these effects in free flowing conical materials like

521
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 1: the fabric of a skirt. And so now you have

522
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 1: an equation that can show you the skirt like solutions. Yeah,

523
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 1: we will not read it out to you have to

524
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 1: look it up for yourself because I found a similar

525
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 1: situation there first episode where we talked about spinning kicks,

526
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 1: and I found a post about the physics of a

527
00:30:56,560 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 1: spin kick. But it was just it was just no

528
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 1: sense in getting into it because I would just be

529
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 1: me reading out an equation. But anyway, I don't For

530
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 1: some reason, I found something oddly beautiful about this study. Yeah,

531
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 1: I mean, and it's it also seems kind of fitting right,

532
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 1: given the mystical nature of it, you know, And and

533
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 1: and the idea of there being this mathematical pattern underlying

534
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 1: what we see when we uh witness this particular tradition,

535
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 1: you know. Than now, speaking of cultural traditions about spinning

536
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 1: around in circles, another one came to mind while we

537
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 1: were getting ready for this episode, and it is something

538
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 1: you may have seen at a baseball game. It is

539
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 1: the dizzy bat race. You know, I had completely forgotten

540
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 1: about this until you shared a clip of people doing it.

541
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 1: So this is when the first step is you take

542
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 1: a baseball bat and you put the I don't know,

543
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 1: the club end on the on the ground. Does the

544
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 1: end and I don't know, Yeah, And and then well,

545
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 1: I guess it. I don't know if it matters. Maybe

546
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 1: maybe it doesn't. But then one end of the bat

547
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 1: is on the ground and the other end of the

548
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 1: bat is on your forehead, so you're bending and then yeah,

549
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 1: and you're bending over and then you start spinning around

550
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 1: three Stooges style around it right, yep, yep, spin around

551
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 1: in the circles. And then you gotta do something. You

552
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 1: gotta run somewhere. I don't think it really matters after that.

553
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 1: You just the goal is you get a couple of

554
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 1: people out of the audience who've maybe been having a

555
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 1: few stadium beers. I mean, that's probably watered down beer,

556
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 1: but it's still beer. They've got some alcohol in their system. Alcohol.

557
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 1: It does affect the vestibular system, as we know. Uh.

558
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 1: And then and then you make it even worse by

559
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 1: having them spin around a bunch of times and then

560
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 1: say like, hey, run and try to catch this hot

561
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 1: dog or something, and they'll typically stumble all over the place.

562
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 1: In one example we were looking at, one of the

563
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 1: guys runs straight into the stands and falls over the wall.

564
00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's quite a wipeout. But then he's right

565
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 1: back in his feet. Yeah, liked you see that. Bra.

566
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 1: So generally, as you said this, this sport is presented

567
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 1: as a impromptu competition that one has not trained for.

568
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 1: But based on everything we've discussed here, um, you know,

569
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 1: training would be able to help you. Uh. You know,

570
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 1: the untrained performance seems to be key to the dizzy

571
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 1: bat race. But if you were to train for it,

572
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:28,719
Speaker 1: you could potentially be in a better position to excel

573
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 1: at it. Oh yeah, like training like a Sufi dancer,

574
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 1: or like a or like a ballerina or a figure skater.

575
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 1: You just dizzy bat yourself for hours a day, every

576
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 1: day until you can become the ultimate dizzy bat hustler.

577
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 1: And like nobody knows when you go in that I'm

578
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 1: going to be better at catching the hot dog or

579
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 1: whatever it is. I don't know why I said hot dog.

580
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 1: I guess that's another thing that's at baseball stadiums. You know,

581
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 1: they may do a hot dog version. I guess one

582
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 1: of the versions I was looking at is like you

583
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 1: do the dizzy bat thing, You've you spin around and

584
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:02,479
Speaker 1: the you have to run to like first base and

585
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 1: to see if you can run in a straight line,

586
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 1: and then you're it's your time, right, It's like they

587
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:10,319
Speaker 1: time you on it. So, Um, I have a potential

588
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:12,880
Speaker 1: answer to this. It's not a scientific answer, but I

589
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:17,120
Speaker 1: come to it via another physical activity that involves spinning,

590
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 1: and that's the world of professional wrestling. UM. So I

591
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 1: knew we'd end up back here. I didn't expect to

592
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 1: talk about about pro wrestling in this at all. Um beside, well,

593
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 1: I guess I already did. I did bring it up briefly. Um.

594
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 1: The elbow or something from from Japanese wrestling. Yeah, like

595
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:36,440
Speaker 1: a roaring elbow where you get you spin around and

596
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 1: do an elbow and it's uh, you know, it's flashy looking.

597
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 1: But but there are a couple of other more famous

598
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:44,839
Speaker 1: spinning maneuvers. So one of them, and tell me if

599
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 1: you've seen this before, Joe. One is the airplane spin.

600
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 1: This is when one wrestler puts another in a fireman's carry,

601
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:53,720
Speaker 1: you know, up on their shoulders, and then they spin

602
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 1: around more or less like a whirling dervish before dumping

603
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:01,839
Speaker 1: them over and then the ideas you're both see. Okay.

604
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 1: The other version is the giant swing, and in this one,

605
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 1: one wrestler grabs the legs of the other, you know,

606
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:13,920
Speaker 1: like a wheelbarrow hold, and then spins them around like

607
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 1: a centrifuge and then eventually releases them. And there are

608
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 1: a couple of other variants, but these are the main

609
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 1: spinning moves. So I guess the idea and that the

610
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 1: giant swing is that you are attempting to spin around

611
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 1: until the intracranial pressure of the blood flowing up to

612
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:30,800
Speaker 1: the top of their head kills them. Right. Is that

613
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 1: is that an execution move? It's a finishing move and generally, yeah,

614
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 1: I guess in Mortal Kombat, it would it would make

615
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 1: the top of your head fly off and your brains

616
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,080
Speaker 1: splat again against the camera or something. But in pro

617
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,399
Speaker 1: pro wrestling, both of these moves generally play out this way,

618
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 1: like you spin your opponent around until they're dizzy. You're

619
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 1: dizzy as well, but then you take advantage and you

620
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 1: either pin the person or or it gives you a

621
00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 1: chance to do another maneuver on them and then potentially win.

622
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 1: A lot of times it's kind of played up for

623
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 1: comedy though, like, oh, you did the airplane spin, and

624
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,319
Speaker 1: now both people are dizzy and they can't punch each other,

625
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 1: and they're kind of doing a you know, kind of

626
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 1: a dizzy bat humor spot, where like, oh, now we

627
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:13,960
Speaker 1: can't connect, and it's a going to kind of like

628
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 1: break down the action for a little bit. It seems

629
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 1: like a move that the bush Whackers would have done,

630
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 1: remember them. Yeah, But you know, I've often dismissed the

631
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:26,759
Speaker 1: move because I think, oh, well, that just makes you

632
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 1: both dizzy. It's not very realistic. What's the point of

633
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:32,440
Speaker 1: making your opponent really dizzy if you yourself are equally dizzy.

634
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 1: But given everything we've talked about here, it absolutely makes

635
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 1: sense that a wrestler who regular uses a spinny move

636
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 1: or just trains and spinning would be less affected by

637
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 1: the maneuver and could then you know, better utilize it

638
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 1: in a match. Of course, the reverse would be true

639
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 1: as well, right if you in in cafe, within the

640
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 1: within the fiction of pro wrestling, If you knew you

641
00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:58,799
Speaker 1: were going to go up against someone who uses a

642
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 1: move like this, say uh Hiroshi Hayes or Cesarrow or

643
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,920
Speaker 1: Daniel Bryant, you could train and prepare for it so

644
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 1: that they wouldn't be able to, you know, to to

645
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,479
Speaker 1: to to use it effectively against you. I don't think

646
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 1: I don't think that's ever been used from a wrestling

647
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 1: psychology standpoint, but it seems like it could be a

648
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 1: good angle. I'm imagining the Ric Flair monologue. Now, you

649
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:27,279
Speaker 1: can't use that role on me, it's Rolex time. You

650
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 1: could have a training montage of somebody spinning around in

651
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:32,319
Speaker 1: circles preparing for their match, and then, you know, making

652
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 1: themselves less susceptible to the move. But but outside of

653
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 1: the fictional world of the you know, the match itself.

654
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 1: The other question, of course, is do wrestlers like the

655
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 1: ones I just mentioned do they adapt to using the maneuver?

656
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 1: You know, if you're using an airplane spin or a

657
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,360
Speaker 1: giant swing in you know, a couple of times a

658
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:54,719
Speaker 1: week or just regularly, you know in your matches, do

659
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 1: you become less susceptible to dizziness? And I couldn't find

660
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:01,279
Speaker 1: a real here on this. I looked around a little

661
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 1: bit for you know, interviews and all, but I did

662
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:10,279
Speaker 1: find footage of a dizzy bat competition featuring ww E wrestlers,

663
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:13,320
Speaker 1: and one of the wrestlers was this guy Cesaro who

664
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 1: who uses this um this giant swing a lot in

665
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 1: his matches and has also i think on one in

666
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 1: one case he used a hundred revolutions in a single match.

667
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:26,160
Speaker 1: So so yeah, he'll really get spinning. And he has

668
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 1: another spinning move called a UFO, which is basically an

669
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 1: inverted airplane spin. It's also very impressive, uh to to

670
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 1: see performed. So it raises like it's it is the question,

671
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 1: how's he going to do in this? In this dizzy

672
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 1: bat competition? And you know, this is very unscientific. He

673
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:46,440
Speaker 1: only was competing against I think two other people, but

674
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 1: he did win. He had better time doing the dizzy

675
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,280
Speaker 1: bat thing and then running out the first base he

676
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 1: had better time than either competitors. Interesting. Yeah, so there

677
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 1: you go. Maybe maybe it does. Uh, maybe there is

678
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 1: a way to prepare for the dizzy bat competition, and

679
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:08,760
Speaker 1: maybe spinning around a lot in pro wrestling does produce

680
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:11,279
Speaker 1: these results. I mean it makes complete sense based on

681
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 1: everything we've looked at. I think what it means is

682
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:16,720
Speaker 1: that Cesarro has a future in ice skating or ballet

683
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:22,239
Speaker 1: probably so. I mean, professional dance and professional wrestling have

684
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 1: a lot in common. And uh, I mean he's a hoss.

685
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 1: He could do it well. What that makes me wonder

686
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 1: is are there any well known pro wrestlers who were

687
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 1: also professional dancers in something that is acknowledged as dance. Um,

688
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm not sure on that offhand, it

689
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:37,840
Speaker 1: seems like there there might be. I mean, you have

690
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:41,759
Speaker 1: wrestlers coming in with all sorts of backgrounds, um, you know,

691
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 1: certainly gymnastics backgrounds in some cases. So uh, I'm sure

692
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:47,880
Speaker 1: there's there's one out there that has some sort of

693
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:51,480
Speaker 1: a dance background. Hulkster was he also a square dancing champion?

694
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:54,879
Speaker 1: I don't know if the Hulkster was a square great

695
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:58,880
Speaker 1: dancing champion. No. Um, but Mike, I'm trying to remember

696
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 1: if he ever did the giant swing. He might have

697
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 1: I can't recall. While on the subject of of airplane

698
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 1: spins as as an offensive move, I guess we've come

699
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 1: full circle to like in Bison territory. There was another

700
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:11,719
Speaker 1: thing I was thinking about when we were doing this

701
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:14,880
Speaker 1: episode that was, um, it was a Simpsons episode with

702
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 1: a certain type of spinning torture as hazing. It's the

703
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 1: episode where Barton Lisa get enrolled in a military academy

704
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:25,480
Speaker 1: and there's a scene where they're being hazed and they're

705
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 1: apparently strapped to airplane propellers, and then the the airplane runs,

706
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 1: so they like spin around with the propeller. That's a

707
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,239
Speaker 1: different kind of spinning than we're usually talking about, because

708
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:39,520
Speaker 1: we're talking about spinning along a different access of the body.

709
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 1: This would be again more like the giant swing. This

710
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:45,800
Speaker 1: would be like centrifuging you uh. And while it's funny

711
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 1: in the show, I think I would have to say

712
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:52,880
Speaker 1: my suspicion is that this would be absolutely one fatal

713
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:56,160
Speaker 1: in reality. Just like you know, shove all the blood

714
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:57,719
Speaker 1: in your body up to the top of your head

715
00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 1: and kill you. Yeah, I mean it's it basically comes

716
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 1: back to the Moonraker example that we talked about earlier,

717
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:05,760
Speaker 1: you know, where there's a scene and Moonraker where James

718
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:09,279
Speaker 1: Bond is put in a centrifuge as torture. Right, Yeah,

719
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:14,040
Speaker 1: the G forces simulator for astronauts. Yeah, except I think

720
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:16,799
Speaker 1: that's different because the way his body is oriented. The

721
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:18,359
Speaker 1: way I thought it was supposed to be was that

722
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:20,719
Speaker 1: the G forces would be operating the other way. It

723
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:22,879
Speaker 1: would be like taking the blood out of his head,

724
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 1: you know, and pulling it towards his feet, like would normally, uh,

725
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 1: though I don't know that's the way it would normally happen. Well, actually,

726
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:31,759
Speaker 1: I don't know, because if the astronauts are the astronauts

727
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:36,720
Speaker 1: are usually seeded, what with the back of their bodies

728
00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:41,880
Speaker 1: facing the facing the the exhaust, right, So maybe that

729
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 1: would just mean that the blood is pulled not up

730
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:47,320
Speaker 1: or down your body, but towards the back of your body,

731
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 1: towards the back of your skull. Yeah, I guess. And

732
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:51,920
Speaker 1: it would also depend on the maneuver you're taking in

733
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:55,799
Speaker 1: the airplane. But but certainly when you're talking about the

734
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 1: effects of of G force on the blood flow and

735
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:01,799
Speaker 1: the body tack really blood flow to the brain. That's

736
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 1: where you can get into hypoxia territory where not enough

737
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:06,960
Speaker 1: blood and oxygen is reaching the brain and you can

738
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 1: certainly lose consciousness that way, um, which is of course

739
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 1: extra dangerous if you are also piloting an aircraft. Um,

740
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 1: especially if you're piloting an aircraft that is to say,

741
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:20,920
Speaker 1: in a spin or something like that. So um, yeah,

742
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:24,239
Speaker 1: the idea of this being a potentially lethal way to

743
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 1: torment Barton Lisa, absolutely, what is it? There's some movie

744
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:31,799
Speaker 1: where that's there's like a scene where a character has

745
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 1: to execute a move in an airplane or a spaceship

746
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:36,719
Speaker 1: or something that they know is going to cause them

747
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 1: to lose consciousness student gye forces and they have to

748
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:41,680
Speaker 1: like recover in time. Do you know does that ring

749
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 1: in a bell for you? Oh? It vaguely does. I

750
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:46,720
Speaker 1: mean this kind of thing comes up a fair amount

751
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:51,719
Speaker 1: in in films about about to say fighter crafts. And

752
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 1: also it could have been some of the usual suspects.

753
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 1: They're like the like top Gun or that one where

754
00:42:56,480 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 1: Clint Eastwood flies SR. Seventy one or some version of it.

755
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:03,360
Speaker 1: I don't know. That one. Yeah, I forget it was.

756
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 1: I always wanted to watch it as a kid because

757
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:08,000
Speaker 1: I remember really loving the SR seventy one and the

758
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:10,319
Speaker 1: the SR seventy one Blackbird, which was right, you know,

759
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:13,000
Speaker 1: it was a reconnaissance aircraft that could fly super fast,

760
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:17,440
Speaker 1: super high altitude. Um, I think you got it a

761
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 1: pretty high altitude as well. Not to be confused with

762
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:21,840
Speaker 1: the YouTube which just does you know, really long wings

763
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:26,359
Speaker 1: and his high altitude reconnaissance. But the SR seventy one

764
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 1: was beautiful, and the he's supposed to be flying a

765
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:32,319
Speaker 1: fighter plane in this in this film that's based on

766
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 1: the SR seventy one, or maybe they use an SR

767
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 1: seventy one stand in. And I used to see the

768
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:38,279
Speaker 1: VHS copy and think, oh, that that looks like such

769
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 1: a great movie. And I think later I did see

770
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:43,840
Speaker 1: it and it's it's not great, but it has a

771
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:45,840
Speaker 1: cool plane and it's so what can you do but

772
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:48,040
Speaker 1: to come back to video games, certainly, anyone who's ever

773
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:51,239
Speaker 1: played a flight simulator you know that, uh, if you

774
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:53,480
Speaker 1: you take on too many G forces, the screen is

775
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 1: gonna go black, or the screen is gonna go red.

776
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 1: You know you're gonna potitionally black out or red Out

777
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:00,480
Speaker 1: based on the g Forces. Oh. By the way, that

778
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:04,480
Speaker 1: Clint Eastwood movie was two Firefox. I had to look

779
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 1: it up to make sure that I was, uh, you know,

780
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 1: giving everybody the uh the the full recommend there. Directed

781
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 1: by Clint Eastwood, starring Clint Eastwood. Um, I would have

782
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:19,759
Speaker 1: had Ronald Lacy in it. Uh of the Raiders have

783
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:22,360
Speaker 1: Lost Dark Fame, who played uh, you know, the the

784
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:27,719
Speaker 1: villainous taught uh the s S officer. Wait what, oh,

785
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:30,480
Speaker 1: I see you. I'm confusing this the name of the

786
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:32,400
Speaker 1: movie you're talking about with the movie that I watched

787
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:36,400
Speaker 1: as a child called fire Birds, not Firefox. This was

788
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 1: a helicopter action movie starring Nicolas Cage, And yeah, I

789
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 1: had Nicolas Cage and Tommy Lee Jones and Sean Young

790
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:48,200
Speaker 1: and I think some other recognizable character actors. And I

791
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 1: remember there's a scene where Nicolas Cage has to like

792
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 1: drive a car with one of his eyes covered up,

793
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 1: looking through a periscope in order to train his brain. Oh. Nice,

794
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:01,240
Speaker 1: Well that's a perfect place to close out here, because

795
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 1: so much of what we've talked about it comes down

796
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:06,280
Speaker 1: to training the brain um of the brain becoming used

797
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 1: to what the body is is going through and and

798
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 1: altering the way that it understands the signals that are

799
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:15,239
Speaker 1: delivered to it. All right, we're gonna go ahead and

800
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 1: close out these episodes here then. UM, obviously we'd love

801
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:21,839
Speaker 1: to hear from everybody out there about these episodes. You know,

802
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 1: what are your experiences with spinning around in circles related

803
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 1: to say, dance? Uh? Do we have skaters and dancers?

804
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:32,400
Speaker 1: I know we have at least one uh individual listens

805
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 1: to the show with the ballet background. We'd love to

806
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:36,160
Speaker 1: hear from them on this. Um. Also, do we have

807
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 1: any Sufi listeners who would like to chime in on

808
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:42,759
Speaker 1: either the the experience of the Sufi whirling or just

809
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 1: the place that it has within the religion? Uh? You know,

810
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:49,960
Speaker 1: basically any any anything you have to add or if

811
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:52,960
Speaker 1: you just have stuff about video games and movies, will

812
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,640
Speaker 1: also be happy to listen to you on on that

813
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:58,520
Speaker 1: front as well. In the meantime, if you like to

814
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 1: check out other episodes of stuff to your mind, you

815
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:02,560
Speaker 1: know where to find it. You can find it anywhere

816
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:04,400
Speaker 1: you get a podcast and wherever that happens to be

817
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:07,440
Speaker 1: if they let you rate, review and subscribe, because that

818
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:09,560
Speaker 1: helps us out go to stuff to Blow your Mind

819
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:11,239
Speaker 1: dot com and that will shoot you over to the

820
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 1: I Heart listing for our page. There's a store button

821
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:14,759
Speaker 1: go there if you want to buy a shirt with

822
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 1: a monster or logo on it. And uh, I, I

823
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 1: know some of you are probably intrigued by the mention

824
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:23,440
Speaker 1: of the of the Whirling Dervishes, the video and the

825
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 1: and of course the music. I'm gonna put a post

826
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:30,839
Speaker 1: up about that at my my website, Samoda music dot com. Uh.

827
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 1: That's just a little impersonal blog that I do. Uh,

828
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:37,279
Speaker 1: you know, the low key blogging I call it. But

829
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:40,440
Speaker 1: I'll do a post there about about the music that

830
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:41,960
Speaker 1: I have a few links for you in some bedded

831
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:44,320
Speaker 1: video that you can check out if you so desire.

832
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:48,280
Speaker 1: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Seth

833
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:50,880
Speaker 1: Nicholas Johnson. If you'd like to get in touch with

834
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 1: us with feedback on this episode or any other, to

835
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:56,399
Speaker 1: suggest a topic for the future, or just to say hi,

836
00:46:56,640 --> 00:47:00,120
Speaker 1: you can email us at contact at Stuff to Blow

837
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:10,880
Speaker 1: your Mind. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of

838
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my heart radio,

839
00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:16,080
Speaker 1: this is the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcasts or

840
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:30,400
Speaker 1: wherever you listening to your favorite shows,