1 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:08,639 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie, and you're listening to stuff I've 2 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: never told you. So a Veterans Day is coming up 3 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:26,599 Speaker 1: or perhaps has already passed, depending on when you listen 4 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 1: to this here in the United States. So we thought 5 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:32,200 Speaker 1: we would take a look at a serious issue intacting 6 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 1: female vets, the increased rates of suicide. It's something we 7 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 1: as a society need to be better at combating ourselves 8 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: and something that we cannot ignore. So we hope that 9 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 1: you find this episode enlightening. Please enjoy. Hey, this is Emily, 10 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 1: and this is and you're listening to stuff mom never 11 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:10,399 Speaker 1: told you. Today on the podcast, we are talking through 12 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 1: a truly troubling but important subject, and that has to 13 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:21,199 Speaker 1: do with the intersection of gender and veteran suicide. Sadly, 14 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 1: there was a new report released earlier this week that 15 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: we really wanted to jump on and talk through and 16 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: parse through to better understand why. There are new numbers 17 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:35,679 Speaker 1: out showing that women veterans are much more likely and 18 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 1: the data on this is new in terms of being 19 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: able to make these conclusions, but women veterans have been 20 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: found to be much much more likely than their non 21 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 1: veteran counterparts to commit suicide. To take their own lives, 22 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: and we just have to say, this is the topic 23 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: that a lot of people might find hard to deal with, 24 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: and we totally understand. So big trigger warning. This is 25 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 1: going to be an episode that deals with some heavy 26 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: issues like sexual assault in the military and self harm 27 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 1: and suicide. So, um, if those are issues that are 28 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: complicated for you to deal with, you should just know 29 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 1: that that's going to be the topic of today's show. Yeah, 30 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 1: and we don't I mean, we don't want to be 31 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: downers about this, but I feel strongly that it's important 32 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 1: for us to talk about these intersections and for us 33 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:20,639 Speaker 1: to talk about what we can do more of as 34 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 1: a country and as individuals to help our veterans men 35 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 1: and women alike. Well, because if we aren't talking about it, 36 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:28,639 Speaker 1: if we aren't studying it, if you aren't getting research 37 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 1: and data around it, there's no way that we're going 38 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:32,839 Speaker 1: to be able to properly tackle it. So, even though 39 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 1: it's not a topic that I think anybody necessarily likes 40 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 1: talking about or finds cheery or uplifting, if a topic 41 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 1: that we have to deal with because if we're not 42 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: dealing with it, we're not dealing with it, right exactly. 43 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 1: And what's interesting here is that suicide is stereotypically associated 44 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:54,640 Speaker 1: with maleness, and in reality, it's true that across the 45 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:58,080 Speaker 1: broader population, men or people who identify as men are 46 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:00,800 Speaker 1: much much more likely to commit sue aside than women 47 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 1: are across the board. But what is troubling is this 48 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: sort of old stereotype of the older veteran, maybe from 49 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: um I forgot the name of the war there for 50 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: a second, thank you from the Vietnam War. Is this 51 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: like stereotypical older veteran who takes their own life, And 52 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:25,399 Speaker 1: of course that by stereotypical we're talking about men here. 53 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 1: There is a lot of truth to that stereotype. The 54 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 1: suicide rate amongst middle age and older adult veterans remains 55 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 1: the highest. Now, researchers have long thought that suicide rates 56 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 1: were higher across the board for older veterans, but because 57 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: the v A just completed a comprehensive examination of more 58 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 1: than fifty five million records from nine through to two fourteen, 59 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 1: they actually have new research that shows that statistic is 60 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: not true for women veterans, who are much more likely 61 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 1: to take their own lives surely after their time in service, 62 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 1: and that finding has some serious ramifications for how we 63 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 1: implement suicide prevention programming. Yeah, I think when you look 64 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 1: at folks who serve and then end their own lives, 65 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 1: I do think there's this this stereotype that it's older 66 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:20,280 Speaker 1: folks who have long been living with this traumas their 67 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:23,279 Speaker 1: whole lives. Maybe they've dealt with alcoholism, maybe they've dealt 68 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:26,919 Speaker 1: with you know, addiction issues, they've been exactly exactly. I 69 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: definitely think in pop culture you see this idea of 70 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 1: the older veteran who's been trying to get it together 71 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:35,719 Speaker 1: and just suit of can't. And I think shifting the 72 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 1: way that we think about it along the lines of 73 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:39,920 Speaker 1: gender and it's more along the lines of what is 74 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 1: actually happening in reality, I think it's going to be 75 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 1: instrumental to how we come at this issue. Because if 76 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 1: you're expecting veteran suicide to look like an older person 77 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 1: who has been, you know, dealing with it, slogging through 78 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: for thirty years and then this can't handle it anymore, 79 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 1: but in actuality it can look like a woman who 80 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 1: is struggling to reach diver civilian life and can't find 81 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 1: out she can't. Very early on, I think we need 82 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 1: to understand what that looks like as well, because the 83 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: solutions will differ dramatically exactly. So let's take a look 84 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: at the numbers, because another really alarming data point that 85 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:19,160 Speaker 1: came out of this new research is looking at and 86 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 1: comparing veterans versus non veterans suicide rates when it's broken 87 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 1: down by gender. So if you consider the fact, first 88 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:29,479 Speaker 1: of all, we have to acknowledge that men across the 89 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:31,600 Speaker 1: board are much more likely to take their own lives, 90 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 1: so that does affect some of the conclusions you might 91 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 1: draw here. However, this new data shows that male veterans 92 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:46,480 Speaker 1: are more likely than male non veterans to take their 93 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:49,279 Speaker 1: own lives. So if we want to pinpoint the impact 94 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 1: that serving in the military has on suicide rates, that's 95 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:57,679 Speaker 1: almost increase. That makes you, as a dude, more likely 96 00:05:57,720 --> 00:05:59,919 Speaker 1: to commit suicide. That's a pretty alarming number, isn't it. 97 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 1: That's alarming until you see the numbers on women, because 98 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 1: when it comes to women veterans compared to non veteran women, 99 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 1: women veterans are two hundred and fifty percent more likely 100 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 1: to take their own lives than non veteran women. That 101 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:20,159 Speaker 1: is such a huge difference that's so alarming exactly. And 102 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: another way of breaking these numbers down, because that percentage 103 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:26,119 Speaker 1: comparison can be a little bit tricky, is by thinking 104 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 1: about suicide rates, expressed by the number of annual deaths 105 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 1: for every one hundred thousand people in America. For male veterans, 106 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 1: that figure is thirty two, so thirty two deaths related 107 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 1: to suicide amongst men veterans for every one hundred thousand people, 108 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 1: versus only about twenty for non veteran men out of 109 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 1: every one hundred thousand, so thirty two versus twenty. The 110 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 1: numbers for women are away further apart. When it comes 111 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:00,719 Speaker 1: to women veterans, the numbers twenty line out of every 112 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 1: one hundred thousand people, whereas for non veteran women, just 113 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 1: civilian women, the numbers five, so five versus twenty eight, 114 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 1: much bigger difference than thirty two versus twenty. Totally. Now, 115 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 1: just to add another wrinkle to that data, which I 116 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 1: feel like is already a little bit complicated, the thing 117 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 1: is is that because many veterans, like we said, are 118 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 1: killing themselves long after their military service, it suspected that 119 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 1: their time and uniform may have little to do with 120 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 1: the reason why they've chosen to end their own life. 121 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: Many experts actually surmised that the farther away a veteran 122 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 1: is from their time of serving, the less and less 123 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 1: their suicide has to do with their time in the military. 124 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 1: So the same reason that civilians kill themselves, you know, depression, 125 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: um mental health issues, difficult life circumstances. Experts think that 126 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 1: these are the same reason that service people kill themselves, 127 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 1: the longer removed they are from when they served. And 128 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 1: just to sort of add on to that, most research 129 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 1: has been focused on men, these these older men who 130 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 1: to end their own lives, but they end up missing 131 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 1: the fact that younger women they're actually much more at 132 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 1: risk than older women when they come home from their 133 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 1: military service. Unlike men who suicides predominantly happened later in life, 134 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 1: women vets seem to be much more likely to commit 135 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 1: suicide in the first few years out of service. There 136 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: was a great quote from Alan's Rambo. He writes, the 137 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 1: rates are highest among young veterans. The VA found in 138 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 1: new research compiling eleven years of data for women ages 139 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: eighteen to twenty nine, veterans killed themselves at nearly twelve 140 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: times the rate of non veterans. It's true the differences 141 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 1: between female veterans and civilian women in terms of suicide 142 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 1: rates are much more extreme in that early age bracket, 143 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 1: the eighteen to twenty nine year old bracket, as compared 144 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: to suicide rates amongst veteran women versus non veteran women 145 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: later on in life. And we are not trying to 146 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 1: compare women's suicide to men's suicide to say that one 147 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 1: is at all more important than the other. I just 148 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: think that I get a little bit enraged when I 149 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 1: read this stuff because it is clear to me that 150 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 1: we are failing our veterans, are veteran ends who volunteered 151 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 1: to serve on behalf of our country. And I get 152 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 1: on my like patriotic soapbox and get really defensive, not 153 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 1: just because I got veterans in the family and who 154 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:13,679 Speaker 1: I love and care for. But you know, there's a 155 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:17,320 Speaker 1: lot of talk about broken Washington when it comes to 156 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 1: veteran care and the v A in particular, and this 157 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 1: data is a good first step in starting to improve 158 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 1: suicide prevention efforts. But it's clear to me that we 159 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: are not doing enough for men or women veterans to 160 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:35,680 Speaker 1: really provide them with the lifelines they need in their 161 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 1: moment of greatest need. I couldn't agree more. I'm probably 162 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 1: a little less raw rab about the military than you are, Emily, 163 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: just to be you know, full disclosure. UM. I have 164 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 1: a lot of critical things to say about the military 165 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: as an institution in terms of our you know, foreign policy. 166 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 1: But my main thing is that we've got to support 167 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 1: the individual veterans. We have to support our service people. 168 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 1: These are the people who are putting their lives on 169 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:00,439 Speaker 1: the line to keep us, to presumably keep a safe. 170 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:03,679 Speaker 1: They're making the toughest decisions. They're away from their families 171 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 1: for so long. I have so many service members in 172 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:08,439 Speaker 1: my family, you know, being from the South, it was 173 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 1: a huge part of our upbringing was the military. Um. 174 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: So many of my cousins who couldn't pay for college, 175 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 1: didn't have this like easy avenue to sort of a 176 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 1: comfortable middle class life. Military service was how they did that. 177 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 1: And they sort of bought into this, into this dream 178 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 1: or this contract that if they signed up to put 179 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 1: their lives on the line to take care of America 180 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:32,320 Speaker 1: and defend America, America would take care of them and 181 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 1: defend them. And when you look at this data. When 182 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 1: you unpack it, it's just very very clear we aren't 183 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: doing that exactly. I couldn't have said it better. And 184 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 1: I think when you break it down based on class, too, 185 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:46,319 Speaker 1: it gets me. It gets my my more liberal socialist 186 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 1: e side up in arms, just as much as my 187 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 1: military loving side off of myself up in arms, because 188 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 1: we're basically recruiting troops on like, on the backs of 189 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: our nation's least financially stable populations exactly. And so, even 190 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: as someone who is very critical of the military, I 191 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 1: the fact that so many people feel so comfortable crapping 192 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 1: on our service members when so many of them are 193 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 1: are working class or don't have these these avenues to 194 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:16,560 Speaker 1: middle middle class life like other folks might have. It 195 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:18,560 Speaker 1: just looks like another way to shame and crap on 196 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 1: the poor. Yeah. And this is so not a partisan 197 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:24,719 Speaker 1: issue for me, um, because I like to play both 198 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:27,319 Speaker 1: sides of the aisle sometimes and I can be persuaded, 199 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 1: but um, I guess I'm a relatively moderate liberal person. 200 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 1: But this to me is so not a partisan issue 201 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 1: at all. And I would be curious to hear from 202 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:38,600 Speaker 1: our lives. I'm sure we will hear from our listeners 203 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 1: on this one. But what we need to do next 204 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 1: is really peel back these layers a little bit more 205 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 1: and understand, all right, what are some of the underlying 206 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:50,200 Speaker 1: causes behind why so many of our service members are 207 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 1: choosing to end their own lives. We're going to go 208 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 1: there right after this quick break and a word from 209 00:11:54,880 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 1: our sponsors, and we're back, and we want to talk 210 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 1: a little bit more about some of the underlying causes 211 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 1: behind this troubling information around the increasing rates of women 212 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 1: veterans and suicide in particular as compared to non veteran 213 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: women or the civilian population of women in the United States. 214 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: Then the first thing that comes to mind, at least 215 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 1: I thought of right away, was the impact of PTSD 216 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:31,559 Speaker 1: or post traumatic stress disorder. We know that a lot 217 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: of our veterans who have come back from the wars 218 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 1: in the Middle East that we've been waging for quite 219 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 1: some time now have been struggling with PTSD, and that 220 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: PTSD is relatively new diagnosis with ever evolving treatment options. 221 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:49,319 Speaker 1: But what I found really fascinating is that it appears 222 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:53,680 Speaker 1: women are diagnosed with PTSD at higher rates than men, 223 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: despite the fact that men seem to experience more traumatic 224 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 1: events on average than women do. And that's a ordering 225 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 1: to a review of over twenty five years of research 226 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 1: in the November issue of the Psychological Bulletin by the 227 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: a PA to American Psychological Association. Well again, I think 228 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 1: that really just goes to show that when we think 229 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 1: about what kind of service members are the ones who 230 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 1: we're dealing with things like PTSD, I don't feel like 231 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 1: we think of women. Yet women are the ones, according 232 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 1: to this data, who are suffering from PTSD the most. 233 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: You're absolutely right, but the numbers are different between men 234 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 1: and women in the general population versus men and women 235 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:33,199 Speaker 1: veterans in the general population, women are twice as likely 236 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:36,680 Speaker 1: as men to develop PTSD, whereas according to the v 237 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 1: A or retorneys, basically service members who are coming back 238 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 1: after they've become veterans, after they're no longer active duty 239 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:47,680 Speaker 1: military members, and they're seeking treatment at the VA, which 240 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 1: by the way, is a small population that like, not 241 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:52,200 Speaker 1: every veteran comes back to the v A for care, 242 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 1: but amongst those who do, rates among men and women 243 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 1: diagnosed with PTSD are the same. And one thing that 244 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 1: I can't help but wonder when we look at all 245 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:02,959 Speaker 1: this data is how is this impacted by the idea 246 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 1: that not every service member who is dealing with these 247 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 1: kinds of issues might choose to seek mental health? Right? 248 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 1: Are there folks out there who are struggling who don't 249 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: even get to the level of being studied or talking 250 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 1: to a mental health professional? And how might that impact 251 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 1: these numbers? I'm just very curea. I think there's a 252 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 1: lot more research that needs to be done on this. 253 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: It kind of reminds me of the situation around a 254 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 1: d h D diagnosis, because we're all really socially conditioned 255 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 1: to think of boys and diagnosing them with a d 256 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: h D and that leads to lower diagnosis rates amongst 257 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 1: little girls or young women. But that's starting to change 258 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 1: and correct itself based on those those biases. So it's interesting. Yeah, 259 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 1: I mean, I I can't help but wonder how these 260 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: gender biases have impacted even who feels comfortable coming forward 261 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 1: with these issues, and how that impacts the numbers and 262 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 1: how we're studying it totally. And there's also a neurological 263 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 1: element here that I found really interesting. There was a 264 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 1: study done by Dr Sabra Inflict, a staff psychologist at 265 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 1: the stand for Cisco Via Medical Center, which she really 266 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 1: looked at how men and women learn fear, how they 267 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 1: experienced trauma and fear, and what was fascinating. This is 268 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 1: a study published in the October twelve issue in the 269 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: Journal of Psychiatric Research. She took ten men and thirteen women, 270 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: all of whom had been diagnosed with PTSD that was 271 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: already across the board, true, and she showed these folks 272 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 1: various images on a computer screen and zapped them after 273 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 1: a certain after certain images. It's yes, she I don't 274 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 1: know how this sounds like one of those studies you 275 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: read about in psychology one o one before ethics were 276 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 1: involved in science. But I'm sure it was just a 277 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 1: minor zap. She hooked up electrodes to their palms so 278 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 1: they could uh measure the psychological response, how how like 279 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 1: the sweat response, heart rate, see how their brain was 280 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 1: lighting up, And after certain images, the test subject received 281 00:15:55,240 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 1: a small electrical shock. Gradually the subject these people began 282 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: to associate particular images with something unpleasant. In other words, 283 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 1: they learned to anticipate the impending shock or the danger. 284 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: And this is something called fear conditioning. What's fascinating is 285 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 1: that the researchers found women responded much more strongly to 286 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: the visual cues than men when they saw an image 287 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 1: that they knew was going to be followed by a shock. 288 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: So it's almost like we have higher rates of fear 289 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 1: before a bad result than our male counterparts do in 290 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 1: terms of experiencing trauma, fear, or stress. That sounds so 291 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: right to me. I have no trouble at all believing 292 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 1: that that women knowing like, oh, I know something stressful 293 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: is coming, and that anticipation is what generates that sweaty 294 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 1: palm fear response, right. I mean it also, I mean 295 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 1: we're drawing major correlations here that are kind of a stretch. 296 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 1: But I would also say it makes me think of 297 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 1: anxiety disorders being a much more female thing, because that's 298 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 1: really what that feels like to me, is like the 299 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 1: anxiety of an impending trauma some kind. As an anxious person, 300 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 1: I can tell you that thinking about having to do 301 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 1: something stressful oftentimes is the thing. And then you do 302 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:08,720 Speaker 1: it and it takes five seconds, it's not a big deal. 303 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 1: But it was that week of stressing yourself out about 304 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 1: it that is really the tough part. Now, even the 305 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:18,120 Speaker 1: researcher herself admits that the study was small in terms 306 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 1: of sample size, and there's a ton more research that's 307 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 1: needed because there were lots of questions left unanswered. For instance, 308 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:28,439 Speaker 1: she says, all our study participants had PTSD, so we 309 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 1: couldn't arrive at any conclusions regarding whether women, as a 310 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: general rule, condition more strongly than men do, or if 311 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:37,880 Speaker 1: it's a difference found solely amongst men and women who 312 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:42,159 Speaker 1: already have PTSD, And they didn't examine what may drive 313 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:45,119 Speaker 1: the gender differences that they found, so it might be 314 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:50,640 Speaker 1: biological such as hormones or neuropeptides that might mediate those effects. 315 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,639 Speaker 1: So there's lots more research to be done. But PTSD 316 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 1: as a reason behind veterans suicide is not as simple 317 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:02,920 Speaker 1: as it seems, even though they're definitely connected and correlated. 318 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:06,119 Speaker 1: Women and men experience PTSD differently, so we have to 319 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:09,639 Speaker 1: think about our solutions and our suicide prevention programming and 320 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 1: with a gender lens. In my opinion, it seems like 321 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:14,439 Speaker 1: we come back to that position so many times when 322 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 1: we talk about mental health issues or medical conditions, that 323 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: we're not studying folks all along the gender spectrum in 324 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:23,440 Speaker 1: the way that they sort of deserve to be studied. 325 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:26,920 Speaker 1: That we study men and then we use the findings 326 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:30,200 Speaker 1: from men to to talk about the issue large or 327 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 1: we study women and we we use that we were 328 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 1: never happens, right, Yeah, yeah, it's usually men. It's usually men. 329 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 1: But we don't we're not yeah, Rara exactly, um no, 330 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:44,719 Speaker 1: but we're not allowing for, you know, an inclusive understanding 331 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 1: of how we present in the world and our and 332 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 1: our you know, the diversity of people who live on 333 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 1: this planet. We're not studying in a way. We're not 334 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 1: studying people in a way that allows for that diversity. Right, 335 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 1: Because where do gender nonconforming folks fit into all this data? Right, 336 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:00,880 Speaker 1: Like if we own we think about it in terms 337 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 1: of a binary or even worse, just studying men and 338 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 1: no one else. We don't, We won't get anywhere exactly, 339 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 1: Although I have been pleasantly surprised by how many folks 340 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 1: tweeted at us after I don't know which episode, maybe 341 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:16,199 Speaker 1: it's multiple episodes now in which we get on our 342 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:19,480 Speaker 1: soapbox about this very subject, saying this professor at this 343 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:23,159 Speaker 1: medical school or this class, and my medical school had 344 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:27,439 Speaker 1: intersectionality built into the curriculum, and I thought dang. That 345 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 1: is great to hear totally. I think it's one of 346 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 1: those issues that's slowly catching up with where we are now, 347 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:35,679 Speaker 1: and I love hearing about people's experiences where folks are 348 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 1: getting it right so that we can finally turn the 349 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:41,440 Speaker 1: tide on this issue. Absolutely now jumping off to another 350 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 1: underlying cause behind these truly exceptional and not in a 351 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 1: good way rates of suicide amongst men and especially women 352 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 1: veterans when compared to their civilian counterparts. There's another theory 353 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:57,120 Speaker 1: out there that I have to admit is pretty compelling 354 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:01,919 Speaker 1: despite being kind of hopeless, uh in some ways, and 355 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: that is the idea of selection bias. There's a really 356 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 1: interesting correlation between people who volunteer to join the military 357 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 1: and serve their country through the armed forces versus people 358 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 1: who were drafted. So what's fascinating is that male veterans 359 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 1: fifty and older, the vast majority of whom served during 360 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:28,119 Speaker 1: the draft era which ended in ninete, had roughly the 361 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 1: same suicide rates as non veteran men in their age bracket. 362 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 1: So this idea that only younger male veterans who served 363 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:39,960 Speaker 1: in the all Volunteer Force and women who have always 364 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:42,440 Speaker 1: been serving on a volunteer capacity because we were never 365 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 1: included in the draft. It basically suggests that maybe suicide 366 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 1: rates have more to do with who chooses to join 367 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 1: the military than what happens during their service. Well that's 368 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:56,440 Speaker 1: exactly what Claire Hoffmeyer, the v A epidemiologist who led 369 00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:59,879 Speaker 1: this research says. Hoffmeyer pointed to recent research showing that 370 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,360 Speaker 1: men and women who joined the military are actually more 371 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:06,119 Speaker 1: likely to have endured things like difficult childhoods, including sexual 372 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 1: and emotional abuse. So really it could come down to 373 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:11,479 Speaker 1: who these folks are, what their lives have looked like, 374 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 1: that end up impacting whether or not they choose to 375 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,160 Speaker 1: end their lives. Other studies have actually shown that army 376 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 1: personnelit before enlistment, had elevated rates of suicidal thinking, attempts 377 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:24,239 Speaker 1: and various mental health problems. Um, but those studies did 378 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 1: not break out the numbers for women. You know what 379 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 1: I think, as depressing as that theory is, I think 380 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 1: what it really points to for me is that we 381 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 1: as a nation have very little in the way of 382 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 1: mental health services accessible to all Americans. People in need 383 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 1: of mental health support have very few places to turn, 384 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:46,440 Speaker 1: and one of which seems to be the military, absolutely, 385 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 1: and honestly, I would even take it a step further 386 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: and say, not only in this country do we need 387 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 1: easier access to mental health services across the board, but 388 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 1: particularly for veterans. This is exactly the kind of thinking 389 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,200 Speaker 1: that drives my own personal ideology in terms of being 390 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 1: you know, anti war. If we really cared about these people, 391 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 1: if you really cared about not signing them up for 392 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:09,399 Speaker 1: a life of hardship and a life of dealing with 393 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 1: really difficult things for a very long time, up to 394 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 1: and including possibly taking your own life, we would not 395 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 1: have policy that makes allowances for endless war. We would 396 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 1: be more careful about how we how we're thinking about 397 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:23,959 Speaker 1: these people and what we're putting them up against exactly. 398 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:26,359 Speaker 1: And another wrinkle in terms of why you might see 399 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 1: women service members taking their own lives sooner after returning 400 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 1: from service is the huge, huge epidemic of sexual assault 401 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:36,880 Speaker 1: and trauma in the military that often goes without any 402 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:40,159 Speaker 1: kind of justice of any kind exactly. In fact, this 403 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:42,679 Speaker 1: past May, there was a new report released from the 404 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:47,000 Speaker 1: d o D showing that showing I would say, mixed 405 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:51,160 Speaker 1: results when it came to assault in the military and 406 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: the epidemic that is, women veterans being assaulted and raped 407 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 1: without having any recourse to real justice in the system. 408 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 1: The report found that the number of service members reporting 409 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 1: cases of sexual assault in two went up to six thousand, 410 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:12,359 Speaker 1: one seventy two compared to the year prior at six 411 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 1: thousand eighty two, all of which was a huge increase, 412 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:21,679 Speaker 1: almost increase from when only thirty six hundred or so 413 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 1: cases were reported. What was really weird was to see 414 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:27,640 Speaker 1: the d D kind of double speak on this. They 415 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 1: were saying, the fact that more women are reporting sexual 416 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:34,879 Speaker 1: assault shows that there's increased trust in the system, and 417 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 1: isn't that great. It was like a real ministry of 418 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: double speak moment um because I read that and scratched 419 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:44,640 Speaker 1: my head reading some of the quotes from the administration 420 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 1: saying how great that was. But what they said was 421 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:52,160 Speaker 1: quote and this is Elizabeth van Winkle, the Assistant Secretary Defense, 422 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:54,879 Speaker 1: at a press conference, says, we see the increase in 423 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 1: rates of reporting as an indicator of continued trust in 424 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 1: our response and support systems. But thank god for Senator 425 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 1: Kirsten Gillibrand, who said in a statement, the truth is 426 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:08,640 Speaker 1: that the scourge of sexual assault in the military remains 427 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:13,480 Speaker 1: status quo. Today's report disappointingly shows a flat overall reporting rate, 428 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:17,160 Speaker 1: which is true, there's barely any increase, and a retaliation 429 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 1: rate against survivors that remains at an unacceptable six out 430 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 1: of ten for a third year in a row. Basically, 431 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:25,920 Speaker 1: six out of ten women who reported said that they 432 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,360 Speaker 1: faced retaliation and we're either squeezed out of the military 433 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 1: or didn't find any justice through the fact that they reported. Well, 434 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 1: that sure sounds like increase accountability and trust in the 435 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:38,639 Speaker 1: system to me, Emily, I know right Well, it was 436 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,920 Speaker 1: interesting though. Senator Claire McCaskill, a senior member of the 437 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:46,400 Speaker 1: Armed Services Committee, also a Democrat, said that these numbers 438 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,400 Speaker 1: show real continued progress as a result of our historic 439 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 1: reforms to the military justice system. McCaskill and Jilla Brand 440 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:58,119 Speaker 1: have been loud proponents of increased transparency, accountability, and justice 441 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 1: for women victims of sexual assault and rape the military. 442 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 1: And while I for sure know that there's been increased 443 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:08,359 Speaker 1: visibility brought to these issues, that might have to do 444 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 1: with the increased confidence in reporting, this anonymous survey still 445 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 1: found that fifty eight percent of victims experienced reprisals or 446 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:21,120 Speaker 1: retaliation for reporting. Not cool, not okay, But I will 447 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 1: admit that the numbers are mixed because this is an 448 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 1: anonymous survey delivered every two years, and the overall number 449 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 1: of service members who experienced some kind of sexual assault 450 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 1: in two thousand sixteen was fourteen thousand, nine hundred, down 451 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 1: from twenty thousand, three hundred two thousand fourteen. So that's 452 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 1: that is a significant you know, almost over five thousand 453 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 1: less assaults according to this anonymous survey, not that they're 454 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 1: all being reported. If you look at the reporting, four 455 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 1: hundred people said they were assaulted six thousand plus just 456 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: over six thousand reported. This is one of those issues 457 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 1: where it's hard for me to even trust the data 458 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 1: because I know what things like sex well saw and 459 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 1: adding in this code of military silence and sort of 460 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 1: what it looks like to be a you know, part 461 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 1: of the part of the the brotherhood, and yeah, it's 462 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:14,880 Speaker 1: like you don't turn on your fellow service member exactly. 463 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 1: So just knowing a little bit about that vibe makes 464 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:19,800 Speaker 1: it really difficult for me to even trust these numbers 465 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 1: because for every woman out there who does report, who 466 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,640 Speaker 1: even knows how many don't? I know, well, and you're 467 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,359 Speaker 1: saying even in this anonymous survey, exactly there's got to 468 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:34,880 Speaker 1: be people who didn't admit it. And unfortunately, there's without 469 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 1: a doubt a clear link between sexual assault, rape, that 470 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: kind of trauma, and suicidal thinking or ending up taking 471 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:46,400 Speaker 1: your own life. And so we can't overlook how much 472 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:48,239 Speaker 1: of a deal this is, and we really, I mean, 473 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 1: we could talk all day about the important work being 474 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:53,479 Speaker 1: done to end sexual violence in the military and how 475 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 1: much more needs to happen on that front, but we 476 00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 1: should get Senator Delibrand up in here to do that 477 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 1: with us sometimes totally call us. One other added wrinkle 478 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 1: to all of this that I really found just I 479 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 1: couldn't even really wrap my head around it, and as 480 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:10,200 Speaker 1: soon as it came up in the research, I was 481 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 1: kind of both shocked that I had never thought of 482 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 1: it and sort of weirdly just terribly depressed. Is that 483 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,680 Speaker 1: women attempt suicide more often than men but succeed less 484 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,440 Speaker 1: because women usually use pills or other methods. So when 485 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:26,359 Speaker 1: you look at women who have served in the military, 486 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 1: they're much more likely than their civilian counterparts to know 487 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:33,360 Speaker 1: how to use a firearm, and so they're more likely 488 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:37,359 Speaker 1: perhaps to successfully and their own lives using a firearm 489 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,480 Speaker 1: than women who are non civilians who are using other methods. 490 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:46,359 Speaker 1: When I heard this this stat I was so sort 491 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 1: of troubled and depressed, but also it kind of it. 492 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 1: I don't want to say it makes sense, but it's 493 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:58,120 Speaker 1: sort of helps explain the inexplicable. It's true that Veterans 494 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 1: Affairs researchers found that forty or son of the female 495 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 1: veterans who did and their own lives chose to use 496 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:09,480 Speaker 1: guns compared with thirty four of civilian women. So basically, 497 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,199 Speaker 1: women veterans are much more likely to use a firearm 498 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 1: for those ends, and tragically that sets them up to 499 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:19,680 Speaker 1: be more likely to actually end their own life. Yeah. 500 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 1: And I think, not not being someone who serves and 501 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,399 Speaker 1: not being someone who was around firearms that much, I 502 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 1: would never that would never occur to me. But seeing 503 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:32,360 Speaker 1: it laid out in such playing detail just crystallizes how 504 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:37,320 Speaker 1: sickening and depressing and unacceptable this this issue is. Right. 505 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 1: The one thing I would add is that researchers say 506 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 1: that this is enough to have a small difference on 507 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:49,880 Speaker 1: explaining the massively increased risk that are women veterans have 508 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 1: for suicide than non veteran women, but it's not the 509 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,920 Speaker 1: whole story. There's a lot more going on now, one 510 00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:59,480 Speaker 1: final underlying cause behind some of these numbers. It makes 511 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 1: it especially challenging, I think for women veterans navigating the 512 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 1: transition into civilian life. Is this idea of the double 513 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 1: bind that women's service members face. And what I mean 514 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 1: by that is that whole solidarity of the brotherhood that 515 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 1: is the Armed Forces isn't something that's super duper inclusive 516 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 1: of women. Uh, they might not ever feel like they 517 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 1: truly belong in such a massively male dominated environment. And 518 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:33,240 Speaker 1: yet on the flip side, when these exact same women 519 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 1: veterans re enter civilian life, they're expected to be warm, loving, caring, 520 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 1: and ladylike in a way that there they haven't been 521 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 1: socialized or conditioned to be for years, sometimes decades of 522 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 1: serving the armed forces, and that can make them feel 523 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 1: like they don't have any real sense of belonging or 524 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 1: connection in either one of those realms. That really sounds 525 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 1: to me just like what so many women go through, 526 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 1: where you're never enough, you're when you're in the military, 527 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 1: you're not one of the boys. You're not really accepted 528 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 1: as tough enough or good enough, and you're always proving yourself. 529 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 1: And you know, as we know from all the times 530 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 1: you talk about things like microaggressions. I can only imagine 531 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 1: how that adds up, bit by bit by bit by bit, 532 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 1: how it just grows and grows inside of you, giving 533 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 1: you these signals that you're not good enough, you're not 534 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: worth it, all of that, you're always being tested, and 535 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 1: then after on top of dealing with that, as if 536 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 1: that is not enough, going home and realizing the things 537 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 1: that were prized when you were in the military and 538 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 1: that made you good at being in the military might 539 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 1: not necessarily make you good at being a quote unquote 540 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 1: traditional woman or wife or mother. Right, this idea of 541 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 1: having to fit back into this mold of civilian life 542 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 1: and what civilian life tells you it looks like to 543 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 1: be a quote unquote proper woman, How difficult that must 544 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 1: be after then navigating this entirely other mind field of 545 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 1: the military. I can imagine how that just makes you 546 00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 1: feel set up for failure exactly. Danielle Simpson, who works 547 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:05,760 Speaker 1: the Veteran's Affairs Crisis Hotline, in speaking to NPR, she 548 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 1: shared this winter, I spoke with a female veteran who 549 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 1: she had been in Afghanistan seeing combat, and so she 550 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,320 Speaker 1: was really dealing with a lot of PTSD and then 551 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 1: coming home and being expected to be the soft, caring, 552 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 1: warm mother and wife that she was expected to be 553 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 1: in civilian life, and she was really struggling with that transition. 554 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 1: I mean, I can imagine anybody would struggle with that transition. 555 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 1: I think that women in all kinds of different professions 556 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,720 Speaker 1: probably struggle with similar, similar transitions. But then having it 557 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 1: be the military is probably just so much more intense 558 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 1: and tough, and you know, I just can't imagine trying 559 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 1: so hard to fit in in the military, which is 560 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:52,960 Speaker 1: this you know, brotherhood BROWI hyper masculine aggressive, industry aggressive, 561 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 1: and then what's supposed to be good exactly, and then 562 00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 1: finding that those same things that got you rewarded just 563 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 1: make you not feel like you're doing a good job 564 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 1: in your civilian life and back in the domestic sphere, 565 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 1: Like I can imagine that it's already so difficult to 566 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: dovetail back into civilian life. That's just another added challenge 567 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,560 Speaker 1: that women face that I think is unique. And we know, 568 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 1: even going back to the very first episode that you 569 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,200 Speaker 1: and I put together for stuff. Mom never told you 570 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 1: that having solid connections in your life, feeling like you 571 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 1: have friendships or loved ones who respect and accept you 572 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 1: for who you are, and feeling that sense of love 573 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:36,200 Speaker 1: and belonging is so foundational to your mental health that 574 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:39,200 Speaker 1: it does not surprise me that what might seem like 575 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 1: a trite issue of not feeling like one of the 576 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 1: guys in the armed forces and not quite feeling like 577 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:49,479 Speaker 1: you belong in civilian life, it might seem like not 578 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 1: that big a deal, but it adds up because it 579 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 1: severs your ability to have deep, trusting, vulnerable connections and 580 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 1: to allow yourself to be fully seen and respected. And 581 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:01,760 Speaker 1: on top of if you're someone who is struggling or 582 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 1: having a hard time, if back in civilian life you 583 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 1: don't feel like you have somebody that you can genuinely 584 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 1: open up to, maybe you don't feel like you can 585 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:10,280 Speaker 1: really talk to people about what you're going through. I 586 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 1: can imagine that's just another burden in another way, that 587 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 1: this is so complicated, and we're going to talk through 588 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,719 Speaker 1: exactly what options do currently exist for folks in that 589 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:22,080 Speaker 1: exact situation. After we come back from this quick break 590 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 1: and we're back and we're going to talk through some 591 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 1: of the resources and services available to veterans who might 592 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 1: be struggling with those feelings of depression, PTSD or suicidal thoughts. 593 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 1: So something to know is that the v A is 594 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,560 Speaker 1: actually recently made some significant progress in terms of healthcare 595 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:50,040 Speaker 1: delivery for women veterans. Currently, v h A initiatives and 596 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 1: programs include rolling out enhanced women's healthcare, comprehensive primary care 597 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 1: from an interested, proficient, and designated women's health provider at 598 00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:01,560 Speaker 1: any access point across facilities station i'd um more mental 599 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,360 Speaker 1: health care for women veterans, um staffing of every v 600 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 1: A medical center without women veterans, program manager and training 601 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,120 Speaker 1: more than a primary care providers, and things like women's 602 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 1: health And while that progress has been made back in 603 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,919 Speaker 1: two thousand eleven when a lot of sweeping reforms came 604 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 1: through to make those improvements, unfortunately more recently than that, 605 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:26,320 Speaker 1: Congress has failed time and time again to provide more 606 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,759 Speaker 1: resources to really solve these issues. So back in two 607 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 1: thousand fifteen, HR six seven, or the ruth More Act 608 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:37,479 Speaker 1: of was introduced and passed in the House to really 609 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:42,719 Speaker 1: address the epidemic rates of sexual assault happening in the military. 610 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:45,399 Speaker 1: That act would have allowed a statement from a person 611 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,960 Speaker 1: who had been sexually assaulted to serve as sufficient proof 612 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: that the assault occurred in the disability benefits claim process, 613 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:58,120 Speaker 1: because really, many many veterans were being dishonorably discharged and 614 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:03,840 Speaker 1: not given their disability benefits if they couldn't prosecute through 615 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 1: the chain of command, which might have been part of 616 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:11,160 Speaker 1: perpetuating assaults or being complicit and turning the other cheek 617 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:15,799 Speaker 1: to assaults that were happening uh in military court processes. 618 00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:20,160 Speaker 1: So really this was enabling veterans who were claiming assault 619 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:23,719 Speaker 1: for that claim alone to be sufficient for them to 620 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:27,960 Speaker 1: gain disability benefits that they could have otherwise had access to. Now, 621 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,320 Speaker 1: despite the fact that it pass the House, it failed 622 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 1: to do anything significant in the Senate, where it was 623 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:37,759 Speaker 1: sent off to a committee to basically be researched into oblivion. 624 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:41,960 Speaker 1: The same thing happened a year later when Hr. Fifteen 625 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 1: Female Veterans Suicide Prevention Act, which is much more directly 626 00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:49,760 Speaker 1: pertaining to this topic, was introduced and passed in the House. 627 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:52,880 Speaker 1: That would have directed the Secretary of Veterans Affairs to 628 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,880 Speaker 1: identify mental health care and suicide prevention programs and metrics 629 00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:00,839 Speaker 1: that are specifically effective in treating women veterans as a 630 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 1: part of the evaluation of their suicide prevention programs. Basically, 631 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:09,279 Speaker 1: it was saying, hey, while evaluating all the efforts you're 632 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 1: making on suicide preventions, we have to make sure that 633 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:14,440 Speaker 1: we're looking at this with a gendered lens, which, if 634 00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,240 Speaker 1: we have covered anything, hopefully thus far in this episode, 635 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:21,279 Speaker 1: it's become clear that that's significant, salient, and important. It 636 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:24,799 Speaker 1: passed in the House on February nine and went off 637 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 1: to the Senate where it's stagnated in a committee and 638 00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:30,160 Speaker 1: nothing came from it. Well, that's what's so frustrating. I 639 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:32,840 Speaker 1: think about this issue is that I think both of 640 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:35,480 Speaker 1: these programs sound great, but if we're not actually getting 641 00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 1: anywhere on them, what's what difference does it make. I think, 642 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,719 Speaker 1: if we're actually interested in tackling this issue, which as 643 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,800 Speaker 1: Americans we certainly should be, we gotta get somewhere. We 644 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,279 Speaker 1: gotta get some traction. And I don't think the reforms, 645 00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:48,840 Speaker 1: as as good as they are from thousand and eleven, 646 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 1: is going to cut it. I think that it really 647 00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:52,920 Speaker 1: is going to take some sort of meaningful action on 648 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 1: the part of our lawmakers. To make sure that people 649 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,200 Speaker 1: that were not sending people, you know, to preventable early 650 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 1: graves because they served for their country exactly and ironically 651 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:07,239 Speaker 1: slash Unfortunately slash. I'm not sure how to feel about this, 652 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:10,760 Speaker 1: necessarily because the details aren't out yet. But Trump alert 653 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:15,360 Speaker 1: because Donald J. Trump, the President of the United States, 654 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:21,000 Speaker 1: did in fact issue by executive order a requirement for 655 00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:26,880 Speaker 1: Veterans Affairs to take part in a total structural reorganization. Now, 656 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,879 Speaker 1: they say, the v A says that they always had 657 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:34,560 Speaker 1: plans to reorganize and restructure its workforce. Executive order or 658 00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:37,400 Speaker 1: not so in the White House and the Office of 659 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:41,680 Speaker 1: Management and Budget charge agencies to develop comprehensive reform plans 660 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:44,680 Speaker 1: to reorganize. The VA says that they already had the 661 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:49,080 Speaker 1: basics of their plan in mind, but as of right now, 662 00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:52,640 Speaker 1: as of this recording, those plans aren't super transparent. We 663 00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:56,440 Speaker 1: don't really know what a structural reorganization is going to 664 00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,360 Speaker 1: focus on or going to result in. It looks like 665 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:04,000 Speaker 1: they're going to be focused on modernization and efficiency and 666 00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:07,920 Speaker 1: all that private sector talk for like potentially outsourcing things, 667 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:11,680 Speaker 1: but who knows really what that means. To his credit, 668 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:15,120 Speaker 1: VA Secretary David Schulkin did lay out all of his 669 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:20,040 Speaker 1: top priorities thirteen top priorities to be specific, one of 670 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:25,440 Speaker 1: which absolutely includes veterans suicide. He says combating veteran suicide 671 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,680 Speaker 1: is VA's top clinical priority, and he called it a 672 00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:32,200 Speaker 1: public health crisis. So there's there's some reason to be 673 00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:35,279 Speaker 1: hopeful and optimistic that in today's day and age, with 674 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:38,640 Speaker 1: this administration, with this Congress, there's still the potential for 675 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:42,719 Speaker 1: improvement here. I just hope that that improvement doesn't leave 676 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 1: women veterans behind. I hope it doesn't leave women veterans behind. 677 00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:48,799 Speaker 1: And further than that, I would say, I hope it's 678 00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:51,840 Speaker 1: not in a transparent way because I one of the 679 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:53,719 Speaker 1: things I hate so much about how we deal with 680 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:57,040 Speaker 1: veterans in this country is that veterans issues are this 681 00:38:57,160 --> 00:38:58,960 Speaker 1: thing that we don't if you're a civilian, that we 682 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:00,839 Speaker 1: don't even have to think about. And I think the 683 00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:02,640 Speaker 1: idea of this being done in a way that's not 684 00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:05,880 Speaker 1: transparent will only add to that notion that doesn't matter 685 00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:07,719 Speaker 1: what these people are going through, Like, who cares what 686 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,919 Speaker 1: veterans are going through? And I think that we as Americans, 687 00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:13,440 Speaker 1: all of us, need to be invested in terms of 688 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:16,560 Speaker 1: how our country and our government is dealing with veterans 689 00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:18,960 Speaker 1: and issues are going through. These aren't people that we 690 00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:22,840 Speaker 1: should be thinking about, as you know, off to the sidelines, 691 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:24,319 Speaker 1: whose issues that we don't care about. These are the 692 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:27,000 Speaker 1: people who are keeping us safe every day. We have 693 00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:30,040 Speaker 1: a vested interest in making sure that they are being 694 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:32,239 Speaker 1: treated well and that they're being treated fairly and that 695 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:34,880 Speaker 1: they have the support that they need. Otherwise, what the 696 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:39,560 Speaker 1: heck are we doing? What is your bid for Republicans? No, 697 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:43,239 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm gonna make it clear clearly, I hate 698 00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:46,759 Speaker 1: the military, but I just love seeing you. I mean 699 00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:49,759 Speaker 1: it's a nuanced right, like like you know, um you 700 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,640 Speaker 1: can be I I totally And people might write in 701 00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:56,759 Speaker 1: about this and I have very hyper hyper I have 702 00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,680 Speaker 1: intense feelings about the military, obviously, but at the end 703 00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:01,120 Speaker 1: of the day, a I think that we need to 704 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:03,719 Speaker 1: be protecting our service people. And I think that what 705 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:07,160 Speaker 1: makes me the angriest is that we aren't protecting them. 706 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:09,759 Speaker 1: In fact, we are failing them, and nobody seems to care. 707 00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:13,319 Speaker 1: And I think that for me it begins and ends 708 00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:16,160 Speaker 1: with we need to be making sure that the folks 709 00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:20,279 Speaker 1: who are making the biggest sacrifices for us. Whether or 710 00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:21,799 Speaker 1: not you're down with the military or not like that, 711 00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:25,919 Speaker 1: like that is accurate, but we are not having their 712 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:28,360 Speaker 1: backs and that pisses me off. That makes me very angry, 713 00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:31,320 Speaker 1: even as someone who is oftentimes very critical of the military, 714 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,239 Speaker 1: love it. I couldn't have said it better myself. The 715 00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:37,400 Speaker 1: last thing I want to add to this conversation is 716 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:41,719 Speaker 1: that if you are someone specifically a veteran who is 717 00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,759 Speaker 1: struggling with thoughts of suicide, or you know someone who 718 00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:49,160 Speaker 1: might be in that situation, the number one recommendation that 719 00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:53,200 Speaker 1: the v A and everybody out there has really made 720 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:58,320 Speaker 1: prominent and upfront is calling the Veterans Crisis Line, which 721 00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:02,120 Speaker 1: can be found online at Veteran Crisis Line dot net. 722 00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:05,080 Speaker 1: Someone messed up there, you r l purchased there, but 723 00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:09,279 Speaker 1: Veterans Crisis Line dot net. And it can also be 724 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:12,520 Speaker 1: reached over the phone at one eight hundred to seven three, 725 00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:18,960 Speaker 1: eight to five five and then pressing one. That's seven three, 726 00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:22,640 Speaker 1: eight to five five and press one. Now that is 727 00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:25,879 Speaker 1: run by the v A. If that is not your jam, 728 00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:28,239 Speaker 1: or you haven't had the best experience with the v A, 729 00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:31,000 Speaker 1: or don't want to go through that vehicle. There are 730 00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:35,880 Speaker 1: also some fantastic nonprofits out there that are doing incredible work, 731 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:40,920 Speaker 1: and one that I found really helpful in in compiling 732 00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:45,880 Speaker 1: many different resources and methods for rehabilitation for veterans who 733 00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:49,400 Speaker 1: are struggling with adjusting to civilian life or struggling with 734 00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:54,880 Speaker 1: PTSD and depression or suicidal thoughts is called Mission twenty two. Mission. 735 00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:58,600 Speaker 1: The number twenty two here is somewhat dated now, but 736 00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:01,640 Speaker 1: it used to be true that every day we lost 737 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:05,800 Speaker 1: twenty two veterans to suicide, staggering awful. Now that number 738 00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:10,880 Speaker 1: is twenty but still far too high, and Mission twenty 739 00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:15,640 Speaker 1: two really focuses on understanding the nuance behind the underlying 740 00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:19,680 Speaker 1: causes behind veterans suicide and has a bunch of different 741 00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:23,400 Speaker 1: solutions and creative ways that they approach providing services to veterans. 742 00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:26,120 Speaker 1: If you get a Mission twenty two dot com slash 743 00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:30,719 Speaker 1: vet intel, you'll find all of the ways that you 744 00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:35,400 Speaker 1: can join forces with many different nonprofits and advocacy organizations 745 00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:37,960 Speaker 1: who have your back. I just want our veterans listening 746 00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:40,200 Speaker 1: to know that we have your back. We have your backs, 747 00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:42,600 Speaker 1: like everyone should have their backs, our country should have 748 00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:45,719 Speaker 1: their backs. Individuals have their back. Everybody should should be 749 00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:49,280 Speaker 1: supporting service people. The only folks missing that MAMO seems 750 00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:52,040 Speaker 1: to be Congress, but that puts you in a long 751 00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:55,239 Speaker 1: line of people that Congress has been failing lately. So 752 00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:57,960 Speaker 1: I hope that you know that we here at stuff 753 00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:02,040 Speaker 1: I've never told you. UH want to see more veterans 754 00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:06,799 Speaker 1: continue to thrive and strive in our society together and 755 00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:11,919 Speaker 1: to feel not alone, especially women veterans who we know 756 00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:16,080 Speaker 1: experienced significantly higher rates of suicide than compared to our 757 00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:20,360 Speaker 1: UH non military or civilian women population. So if you 758 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:21,960 Speaker 1: know a veteran and you haven't talked to her in 759 00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:24,799 Speaker 1: a while, get out there, reach out. Her life might 760 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,600 Speaker 1: not be that different from yours after all. So being 761 00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:30,160 Speaker 1: the kind of person who facilitates connection can be a 762 00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:34,719 Speaker 1: life saver. And honestly, you never know what someone's going through. 763 00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:36,680 Speaker 1: You never know who's putting on a brave base because 764 00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:38,839 Speaker 1: they feel like that's what they have to do because 765 00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:42,160 Speaker 1: they need to be a strong person or a tough person. Honestly, 766 00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:43,840 Speaker 1: just checking in on our folks I think is the 767 00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:47,360 Speaker 1: most important thing. Absolutely So, smithy listeners, we want to 768 00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:49,960 Speaker 1: hear from you. We know that This is a big, burly, 769 00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:52,920 Speaker 1: complicated subject matter that we tried to put together in 770 00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:56,960 Speaker 1: a pretty concise podcast for you, and I know there's 771 00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:58,960 Speaker 1: stuff we missed. I know there are points that we 772 00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:01,000 Speaker 1: want to add to the conver station, and that's why 773 00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:04,120 Speaker 1: it's so critical that we keep this conversation going online 774 00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:06,440 Speaker 1: and in our inbox. You can tweet at us at 775 00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:09,439 Speaker 1: mom Stuff Podcast, find us on Instagram at stuff Mom 776 00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:12,560 Speaker 1: Never Told You, And as always, we love getting your 777 00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:26,920 Speaker 1: emails at mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com.