Speaker 1: So Francis Thompson was an enslaved woman who, after slavery ends,
Speaker 1: moves to Memphis. Unfortunately, Memphis is the site of some
Speaker 1: really horrific race riots in eighteen sixty six. And it's
Speaker 1: during these riots that Francis Thompson and another woman who
Speaker 1: um she lived with were brutally attacked and gang raped.
Speaker 1: And they're among a number of black women, a handful
Speaker 1: of Black women who actually testify before a Senate committee
Speaker 1: about the violence, about their sexual assault. And there's this
Speaker 1: hugely important thing because it's something that did not happen
Speaker 1: during enslavement. Black women didn't have any rights in their
Speaker 1: own bodies. That was Dr Kelly Nicole Gross talking about
Speaker 1: Francis Thompson, a Black woman who was pivotal in America's
Speaker 1: history but has largely been forgotten. Dr Gross, and historian
Speaker 1: at Emery University, is giving us a look today at
Speaker 1: Thompson and two other game changing Black women who deserve
Speaker 1: to be better known. I'm a land Brevie and this
Speaker 1: is Seneca's one Women to Hear. We are bringing you
Speaker 1: one hundred of the world's most inspiring and history making women.
Speaker 1: You need to hear. Dr Kelly Gross is co author
Speaker 1: of the book of Black Women's History of the United States.
Speaker 1: In it, she and Dr Dinah Ramy Berry tell the
Speaker 1: stories of important but overlooked Black women. The women she's
Speaker 1: going to highlight today lived across the span of American
Speaker 1: history from the sixteenth century to the twenty one. Listen
Speaker 1: and learned from Dr Kelly Gross why these groundbreakers are
Speaker 1: among Seneca's one hundred women to hear. We're speaking today
Speaker 1: to award winning historian, professor and author, Dr Kelly Gross.
Speaker 1: Welcome so much, Dr Gross, Thank you so much for
Speaker 1: having me. It's an honor to be here. Well, we're
Speaker 1: delighted and we're delighted to learn today about some of
Speaker 1: the amazing Black women who have been not as recognized
Speaker 1: as they should have been in history and hopefully rectify
Speaker 1: that today by speaking to you. But first, let's talk
Speaker 1: a little bit about your book, A Black Women's History
Speaker 1: of the United States. It came out in was co
Speaker 1: authored with Dr Dinah Ramy Barry, and we're eager to
Speaker 1: hear a little bit about it. Why did you write it,
Speaker 1: what was your goal? And tell us everything you'd like
Speaker 1: to tell us about it, and hopefully we'll all go
Speaker 1: out and buy it too, thank you. Sure. Now, you know,
Speaker 1: Dinah and I were actually approached by an editor from
Speaker 1: Beacon Press because they had a series called Revisioning American History.
Speaker 1: But at the time that we were approached, we both
Speaker 1: felt that it was a really fortuitous meeting because we
Speaker 1: had been actually talking about the need for a newer
Speaker 1: historical monograph on black women's history. There are some brilliant
Speaker 1: works that exist, but most of them were over twenty
Speaker 1: years old, and so part of our interest in joining
Speaker 1: the project was to write a sort of a survey
Speaker 1: of black women's history in the US that would meet
Speaker 1: the needs of today's readers. I mean, we both really
Speaker 1: committed to using history as a way to speak to
Speaker 1: the present. Right what we study the past so that
Speaker 1: we learned, um you know, so we can chart a
Speaker 1: better course forward. And so we knew that we needed
Speaker 1: to turn back to this history and ask different kinds
Speaker 1: of questions, questions that weren't really um considered twenty years ago.
Speaker 1: Things around mass incarceration, things around gender and sexuality, and
Speaker 1: just a broader range of women in history period. Now
Speaker 1: you have many unsung amazing women in your book. We
Speaker 1: want to talk about three of them today in the
Speaker 1: time we have. The first one is Isabelle dela Vera,
Speaker 1: and we're going to go back to the late sixteenth
Speaker 1: and early seventeenth centuries to learn about her. Can you
Speaker 1: tell us about her? Absolutely so. Isabel de o Vera
Speaker 1: was a woman of African descent who joined an expedition
Speaker 1: from Mexico. It was an expedition of Juan Deonte and
Speaker 1: basically she petitioned the government to get um paperwork to
Speaker 1: basically say that she was in fact a free woman.
Speaker 1: So she went to the courts to get doc commentation
Speaker 1: to confirmed that she was free um. And we wanted
Speaker 1: to start with her because we thought about how brave
Speaker 1: it was for a black woman in such an early
Speaker 1: time period one to be joining an expedition at all.
Speaker 1: Usually when we think about black folks in the America's
Speaker 1: we usually go automatically to sixteen nineteen, and so beginning
Speaker 1: with the Sabel was really important because it showed one
Speaker 1: that there is this longer history of black folks and
Speaker 1: and being on what we now consider you know, the
Speaker 1: continental us um. But also too that even then we
Speaker 1: see this incredible sort of spirit and this woman of
Speaker 1: African descent. You know, she wants to, you know, have
Speaker 1: the court give her this affidavit that says that she's free,
Speaker 1: not bound by either marriage or slavery. And I think
Speaker 1: that they're part of me that you know, I always
Speaker 1: smile when I hear that because it talks about these
Speaker 1: other issues that were impacting her as a as a
Speaker 1: as a black woman, right, you have enslave and on
Speaker 1: one hand, but also to the gender confined as well. Um.
Speaker 1: And in her final appeal she sort of says that
Speaker 1: she demands justice, and that is just this powerful kind
Speaker 1: of rendering that I think really foreshadows so much of
Speaker 1: black women's experiences in the US. Well, you mentioned how
Speaker 1: gutsy she was for her time. Where do you think
Speaker 1: she got that courage to stand up for her rights?
Speaker 1: You know, it's a great question. I think that you know,
Speaker 1: we know that there these issues around enslavement and bias
Speaker 1: were present um in Mexico as well, and so she
Speaker 1: clearly had encountered some other forms of discrimination beforehand. And
Speaker 1: you know it must have come from a background where
Speaker 1: they cultivated this resistance to stand up and to to
Speaker 1: be a void against that and to still make a
Speaker 1: way for herself. Um, it's just incredible, and I think
Speaker 1: there's something in that that I personally saw over and
Speaker 1: over again in black women's history, individually and collectively. There
Speaker 1: are ways that black women organize and train each other
Speaker 1: to um, to try to I guess, you know, sort
Speaker 1: of cliche, but you know, live live their best lives
Speaker 1: in the face of some incredible and unsinkable obstacles. Well,
Speaker 1: it certainly is inspirational to hear about what she did
Speaker 1: senecas one hundred women to hear. We'll be back after
Speaker 1: the short break. The next woman is Francis Thompson. She
Speaker 1: was enslaved in Maryland in the eighteen hundreds and hers
Speaker 1: is a fascinating story two of real courage. What did
Speaker 1: she do and why is she so important and included
Speaker 1: in your book? Oh? Yeah, thanks for this is a
Speaker 1: great question. Francis Thompson is one of these amazing figures
Speaker 1: in history and I'm super excited, um to have been
Speaker 1: able to include her in in our book, and also
Speaker 1: to learn that there are more folks doing more research
Speaker 1: into her life now and I think their documentaries on
Speaker 1: the horizon. But to answer your question, so, Francis Thompson,
Speaker 1: as you said was an enslaved woman who after UH
Speaker 1: slavery ends, you know, moves to Memphis, which was kind
Speaker 1: of a boom town, and tries to make her way
Speaker 1: in the city. Unfortunately, Memphis is the site of some
Speaker 1: really horrific race riots in eighteen sixty six, and it's
Speaker 1: during these riots that Francis Thompson and another woman who
Speaker 1: um she lived with, were brutally attacked and gang raped. UM.
Speaker 1: And they're among a number of black women, a handful
Speaker 1: of black women who actually testify before a Senate committee
Speaker 1: about the violence, about their sexual assault. And it's really
Speaker 1: one of these pivotal moments because black women go on
Speaker 1: record to say that they did not consent, and there's
Speaker 1: this hugely important thing because it's something that did not
Speaker 1: happen during enslavement. Black women didn't have any rights in
Speaker 1: their own bodies. UM. And so that testimony, though, that
Speaker 1: is you know, helps really sort of spark these calls
Speaker 1: for greater kinds of protections for African Americans, particularly in
Speaker 1: the South. After the Civil War contributes to UM the
Speaker 1: implementation of federal troops going down to the South to
Speaker 1: help safeguard UM black rights. And and you know, this
Speaker 1: is a period where the South is basically divided into
Speaker 1: five military districts. And this is where we see black
Speaker 1: people actually being able to um use the right to
Speaker 1: vote that you know, they actually is one of the
Speaker 1: time as where we start to see black men actually
Speaker 1: um winning offices. So it's this really incredible moment, but
Speaker 1: it's very short lived. And after that testimony, Francis Thompson
Speaker 1: kind of becomes a persona on grata. She gets persecuted
Speaker 1: by local law enforcement. UM. She's harassed, routinely stopped, um
Speaker 1: and and you know, arrested on all kinds of species charges,
Speaker 1: everything from you know, selling Whodo bags to running a
Speaker 1: house of ill repute UM. And there are also these
Speaker 1: concerns about Francis Thompson's gender identity, and so she was
Speaker 1: always able to sort of fend off these kinds of questions,
Speaker 1: but in eighteen seventies six, UM, she actually is not
Speaker 1: able to avoid it. She's arrested again on suspicion of
Speaker 1: being a man in woman's clothing. She is subjected to
Speaker 1: a series of invasive investigations in which they conclude that
Speaker 1: Francis Thompson is not a woman but actually a man.
Speaker 1: And then she is incarcerated, even though she maintains that
Speaker 1: she was a double sex and we know that she
Speaker 1: had been living as a woman for at least twenty years.
Speaker 1: So she is imprisoned at that time. UM, they forced
Speaker 1: her to wear men's clothing. Um, she's sort of out
Speaker 1: working public streets, kind of want to chaining for a while,
Speaker 1: on the subject to all kinds of vile insults and harassment.
Speaker 1: But she never loses her fight. When people ask her
Speaker 1: rude questions about her sex, she always tells them, you know,
Speaker 1: none of your damn business, and so they end up
Speaker 1: bringing her inside. She lives out her sentence, but you
Speaker 1: know that that kind of time is really debilitating. So
Speaker 1: when she is released later that year. She dies a
Speaker 1: few months after UM and released from prison. And it's
Speaker 1: interesting because after she's arrested and she serves that time,
Speaker 1: folks sees upon that arrest to discredit her earlier testimony.
Speaker 1: They say, see, these women were liars, they weren't raped.
Speaker 1: This is all you know, you know, it's an indication
Speaker 1: of sort of black depravity. It's so as it undermines
Speaker 1: those ideas. And I said, she gets arrest in a
Speaker 1: seventy six and she dies that year. Later in that year,
Speaker 1: Reconstruction basically dies the following year when there's this compromise
Speaker 1: after the election and they remove those troops from the South,
Speaker 1: and that's when we also start to see the rise
Speaker 1: of white supremacy and all those voting rights to other
Speaker 1: things that black people had been actually exercising. It quickly
Speaker 1: goes away under intimidation and all kinds of voter suppression tactics.
Speaker 1: But Francis Thompson is just this powerful figure in that moment.
Speaker 1: She really had two strikes aster in some people's eyes,
Speaker 1: being both black and trans and for those times, clearly
Speaker 1: what you described was pretty terrible. Of what she suffered,
Speaker 1: I can't imagine that society was very um generous towards
Speaker 1: trans people at the time. No, give us a sense
Speaker 1: besides her imprisonment, what did she face every day? So
Speaker 1: first of all, I just want to agree with you, right,
Speaker 1: it was incredibly brave for her to to live as
Speaker 1: she did, particularly in that time, because you know, depending
Speaker 1: on you know, the response to her could be anything
Speaker 1: from this vicious brutality to being murdered too, you know,
Speaker 1: you know more, you know, sexual assault, um, all of
Speaker 1: the above as well as imprisonment, which as we know
Speaker 1: was you know, could be tantam out to a death
Speaker 1: sentence itself based on the kind of time that black
Speaker 1: folks served in the South. So she faced incredible odds
Speaker 1: to to live her truth and to stand in that.
Speaker 1: And for for me, one of the reasons I mean
Speaker 1: for both of us, for both Dine and I can
Speaker 1: including her story was essential because we also wanted to
Speaker 1: demonstrate too that these issues around gender and sexuality are
Speaker 1: not new, that there are examples in history, and that
Speaker 1: we need to be expansive and embrace our history. And
Speaker 1: that was one of the key things that we definitely
Speaker 1: wanted to focus on in terms of thinking about black
Speaker 1: women's history. Is an expansive kind of study that would
Speaker 1: meet the needs of our readers today And did her
Speaker 1: her bravery in any way inspire others? You know that
Speaker 1: I don't know the record, I don't have a lot.
Speaker 1: This is what's maddening about doing research on black women
Speaker 1: in history, because more folks were not in positions to
Speaker 1: leave behind like journals and memoirs and extensive letters. We
Speaker 1: don't have a good sense of a lot of their interiority,
Speaker 1: and certain aspects are there, um experiences. So I don't
Speaker 1: know if she inspired a lot. I do know that
Speaker 1: she did have a community that embraced her. So she
Speaker 1: had a support network. You absolutely did, and so then
Speaker 1: very very well may have been other black queer folks
Speaker 1: in that community also. Well, let's go to our final woman.
Speaker 1: We're now getting into the twentieth century with Alice Coachman. Yes,
Speaker 1: and she was a history making Olympic athlete. Tell us
Speaker 1: why you put her in the book and why don't
Speaker 1: we hear more about her? You know, it's a great
Speaker 1: I don't know why we don't hear more about Alice
Speaker 1: Coachman because Alice is also awesome. She has the first
Speaker 1: black woman to win an Olympic gold medal in the forties. Um,
Speaker 1: and she does it for the high jump. Alice Coachman
Speaker 1: grew up in you know, on the rural south just
Speaker 1: outside of Albany, Georgia. She's a middle child of a
Speaker 1: family who, like most working black folks at that time,
Speaker 1: faced incredible hardships and poverty. I mean she, you know,
Speaker 1: worked in fields alongside relatives at points to make ends meet.
Speaker 1: Um that she also was always very athletic and loved running.
Speaker 1: And she actually faced resistance even from her own family
Speaker 1: about sort of running and doing exercise because it wasn't
Speaker 1: considered sort of lady like. You know, her father had
Speaker 1: real concerns about you know, having his young daughter running
Speaker 1: around sort of fields and you know, basketball courts and
Speaker 1: this sort of thing. Um. But she had a real
Speaker 1: gift and a talent for it and it gets recognized um.
Speaker 1: And then she pursues her education. She also runs track,
Speaker 1: and it's clear year that she has real talent and
Speaker 1: potential UM. And so that you know, she fought a
Speaker 1: lot of hurdles to actually go and compete in those Olympics,
Speaker 1: and she was one of the few folks to sort
Speaker 1: of bring home the top honor um in that you know,
Speaker 1: in the And one of the things that is so
Speaker 1: amazing to me about her is that she talks about
Speaker 1: knowing that when she went to the Olympics that she
Speaker 1: knew that she needed to do well because if she
Speaker 1: went and she failed or you know, things were wrong,
Speaker 1: that that would be it. There wouldn't be any other
Speaker 1: chances for any other black women to compete, and and
Speaker 1: for me, it just you know, so that was that
Speaker 1: just blows my mind too, because it's another example, and
Speaker 1: there is another trait that I've noticed throughout African American
Speaker 1: women's history, but I think she just raised it so eloquently,
Speaker 1: is that there's this way that a lot of these
Speaker 1: figures in Black women's history have this incredible ability to
Speaker 1: understand kind of their own individual sort of destinies, but
Speaker 1: also they clearly see themselves connected to the overall struggle
Speaker 1: of their people, and so they bear this enormous kind
Speaker 1: of weight and responsibility to succeed, to achieve, to push
Speaker 1: doors open so that more people can benefit and have
Speaker 1: these opportunities. Um. And So she was just incredible because
Speaker 1: after she stopped sort of competing, um, she still continues
Speaker 1: to work with and help train other folks in track
Speaker 1: and field. So she was just this amazing, inspiring kind
Speaker 1: of figure. And I also thought, given that the Olympics
Speaker 1: are going on now, she would just be a great
Speaker 1: person to recognize and honor in this moment. And how
Speaker 1: many more black athletes women have followed her in terms
Speaker 1: of their own achievements in athletics since her day exactly,
Speaker 1: I mean countless other women. She she was an incredible
Speaker 1: model for so many women who were interested in sport
Speaker 1: during her own time period and long after it's phenomenal. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you point out how difficult it is to be a
Speaker 1: trailblazer because you do have so much pressure on your
Speaker 1: shoulders to succeed so the door won't close behind you
Speaker 1: for others. It's a lot of to consider that heavy burden.
Speaker 1: Did segregation affect her at all? Did it affect her
Speaker 1: career at all? Oh? Absolutely? I mean, well, you know,
Speaker 1: so here's what I'll say. Yes, yes, absolutely. But also
Speaker 1: the thing that I'm so impressed by is that, you know,
Speaker 1: Alice Coachman and many of the women's time period worked
Speaker 1: really hard not to let it to push past those
Speaker 1: barriers anyway. So absolutely segregation was a factor and made
Speaker 1: her journey a lot more difficult, but it didn't stop
Speaker 1: her from getting to the Olympics and didn't stop her
Speaker 1: from from winning and achieving um And I think that
Speaker 1: is this other important kind of message too, is that
Speaker 1: they're the obstacles were there, she just worked really hard
Speaker 1: to surpass them and managed to do it in a
Speaker 1: way that would open up the doors for others. You know,
Speaker 1: it seems to me we're all looking for hope and
Speaker 1: inspiration these days, and I wonder, given that you wrote
Speaker 1: about these women in your book, what lessons overall do
Speaker 1: you think we can draw from their lives, because they
Speaker 1: were indeed amazing. I'm pretty blown away, you know, As
Speaker 1: I said, you know, I study African America's history, and
Speaker 1: I learned so much and was just blown away by
Speaker 1: the incredible courage and bravery. Um. I'm I'm in awe
Speaker 1: of their ability to maintain hope under the bleakest of circumstances.
Speaker 1: I definitely was an awe by the amount of perseverance
Speaker 1: that that black women seemed to drawn. But also too,
Speaker 1: I think a real lesson or takeaway from me also
Speaker 1: is that they organized. Most of the time, Black women
Speaker 1: organized and worked really well collectively to overcome obstacles, and
Speaker 1: we see that a lot in African American history. UM,
Speaker 1: and all kinds of individuals. So we all know big
Speaker 1: names like you know, Harriet Tubman and Rosa Parks, but
Speaker 1: there are so many kind of everyday women who um
Speaker 1: felt that these issues were important issues around justice and
Speaker 1: democracy and freedom. And that's one of the takeaways for
Speaker 1: me that I think I admire about Black women's history
Speaker 1: is that they fought a lot of battles to breakdown
Speaker 1: racial barriers. But you know, most of the like all
Speaker 1: of the legislation, everything that that these women work to achieve,
Speaker 1: particularly around civil rights, that those goals are to make
Speaker 1: opportunities for everyone. So there's no law that's like this,
Speaker 1: you know, we've changed this just to benefit black people,
Speaker 1: like it's always dude, to benefit all groups that are marginalized,
Speaker 1: all women, you know. And so that's the other the
Speaker 1: takeaway from me is that they thought about justice and
Speaker 1: liberty in this kind of holistic way. Also, that's beautiful.
Speaker 1: We have very little time left, I regret to say,
Speaker 1: but before we close, can you tell us a little
Speaker 1: bit more about your book. How many of these uh
Speaker 1: extraordinary women are profiled, and how did you make your selections?
Speaker 1: Oh well, so Dinah and I were incredibly hard and
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry that she's not here today. Dinah and
Speaker 1: I worked incredibly hard to be inclusive. We strategized. The
Speaker 1: book is about ten chapters, and each chapter opens up
Speaker 1: with a vignette of a woman whose life um kind
Speaker 1: of serves as this sort of entryway onto the error
Speaker 1: that the chapter discusses. And we picked all kinds of
Speaker 1: women enslave women, free women as you know, women like
Speaker 1: Francis Thompson. Also, um, you know children, women with disabilities, politicians, UM,
Speaker 1: you name it, just the full spectrum, um, the gamut
Speaker 1: of women who were activists, artists, um. Because we wanted
Speaker 1: to create a book that sort of any any Black
Speaker 1: women or girl could pick it up and maybe kind
Speaker 1: of recognize or see themselves and their experience in it
Speaker 1: in some way. But we also wanted to write a
Speaker 1: book that would be easily consumed and accessible to all
Speaker 1: kinds of readers, so that anybody who picks up this
Speaker 1: book can learn something about black women's history, can learn
Speaker 1: something about American history, can learn something about these values
Speaker 1: of democracy and liberty, things we claim that we hold.
Speaker 1: Dear well, thank you so much, Dr Gross. I wish
Speaker 1: we could spend more time with you, but we're so
Speaker 1: grateful for your putting a spotlight and these three great
Speaker 1: women and we spoke about today, and for really teaching
Speaker 1: us a great deal about their achievements as black women,
Speaker 1: and for making us a lot smarter than we were
Speaker 1: when we started this conversation about black women in history.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me, and thank you
Speaker 1: for giving me the opportunity to teach you about Black
Speaker 1: women's history. I really appreciate it was our pleasure. That
Speaker 1: was an amazing doseph history and inspiration. Here are three
Speaker 1: things I took from that conversation. First, Dr Gross tells
Speaker 1: us that Black women who changed history knew that their
Speaker 1: achievements were connected to the struggles of all African Americans.
Speaker 1: They wore an enormous weight, the pressure to succeed to
Speaker 1: push doors open for others. Second, we need to recognize
Speaker 1: that issues of gender and sexuality are not new to
Speaker 1: the twenty first century. All we have to do is
Speaker 1: look at the story of Francis Thompson to see how
Speaker 1: constant these topics are, and by studying them we can
Speaker 1: perhaps hopefully resolve them. Finally, the Black women groundbreakers had
Speaker 1: to maintain hope under the bleakest of circumstances and while
Speaker 1: facing huge challenges, says Dr. Gross. But they overcame obstacles
Speaker 1: by organizing and working collectively. Tune in next week to
Speaker 1: hear about our next featured woman and discover why she's
Speaker 1: one of Seneca's one hundred Women to Hear. Seneca's one
Speaker 1: Hundred Women to Hear is a collaboration between the Seneca
Speaker 1: Women Podcast Network, and I Heart Radio, with support from
Speaker 1: founding partner PNG, have a great day.