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Speaker 1: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

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Speaker 1: crime all the time. It's Monday, December twenty seconds and listen.

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Speaker 1: Our team is taking a little time off for the holidays,

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Speaker 1: but we wanted to revisit one of our most favorite shows.

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Speaker 1: We really hope you enjoy it.

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Speaker 2: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 2: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 2: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

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Speaker 1: crime all the time. It's Thursday, September fourth, th We

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Speaker 1: are almost to Friday, everybody, so welcome to a great night.

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Speaker 3: We have a stack night of headlines.

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Speaker 1: I mean, listen, what is the deal with this missing

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Speaker 1: minute in this Epstein Oh prison tape issue. There's been

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Speaker 1: so much debate about this, so we're going to break

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Speaker 1: down some of the facts real time. We absolutely want

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Speaker 1: your opinion on that as well. There was also this

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Speaker 1: critical day in court today with Emmanuel Harrow's parents. They've

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Speaker 1: been accused of his death and they are pleading not guilty.

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Speaker 1: And we have the greatest guest, the Queen of DNA herself.

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Speaker 1: She is the Queen of sequencing is what they call

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Speaker 1: it in DNA talk. And you know Ceci is Cecy Moore.

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Speaker 1: She is the person. She is the woman. We saw

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Speaker 1: her many many years ago, I want to say, on

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Speaker 1: sixty minutes and I was gobsmacked by her. So having

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Speaker 1: her hear is a really big day. Seriously, almost as starstruck.

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Speaker 3: Is when I met you.

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Speaker 1: She's a powerhouse, She's the real deal. So it's a

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Speaker 1: great night too. Involved in so many critical cases. This

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Speaker 1: is the wave of the future in terms of forensics.

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Speaker 1: So if you have a question for her, also please

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Speaker 1: jump in eight eight eight three one Crime. You could

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Speaker 1: also leave us a talk back on our iHeartRadio app,

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Speaker 1: it's free, or just hit us up on the socials

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Speaker 1: at True Crime Tonight's show on TikTok and Instagram, or

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Speaker 1: at True Crime Tonight on Facebook.

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Speaker 3: I'm Stephanie Lydecker.

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Speaker 1: Here as always with Courtney Armstrong and body Move in

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Speaker 1: high ladies.

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Speaker 2: I live.

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Speaker 1: I'm fighting a little bit of an allergy thing, so

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Speaker 1: I know it's a little annoying.

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Speaker 3: I apologize. I feel good.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I'm just extra some fall in the

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Speaker 1: crazy changing weather everywhere.

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Speaker 4: So I'm telling you go get some ginger ale. It

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Speaker 4: is literally really for everything. Oh yeah, yes, ginger ginger.

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Speaker 3: I mean that actually really makes sense the sprite, Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Girl does that unless you add some ginger like flavoring

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Speaker 4: medea ginger, stomach digestion and all. I will put ginger

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Speaker 4: on everything. It's kind of like a cure all for everything.

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Speaker 4: You broke your phone, drink a ginger ale.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's kidding, Okay, So I'm going to actually make

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Speaker 1: that happen.

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Speaker 3: We're on the show.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, if there are any some like

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Speaker 1: helpful tips and tricks, they clear up a little hay fever.

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Speaker 1: Do tell we are all years at least I am

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Speaker 1: specifically so, yeah, and then listen. In the most probably

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Speaker 1: critical part of tonight's night, Granny accused of killing her

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Speaker 1: her son in law. Big day in court today. The

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Speaker 1: verdict is in and body's going to break that down

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Speaker 1: for us entirely. Let's start there, Boddy, go ahead, tell

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Speaker 1: us what happened in court today.

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Speaker 4: Do we have a drum roll rah like at the ready?

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Speaker 5: Yes, fortunately not at the ready.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a little more of a search, apparent. That's okay.

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Speaker 3: I was you know, I got to keep the guys

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Speaker 3: on their toes, right. We need a band, that's what.

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Speaker 5: We can't be perfect we do.

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Speaker 4: You are perfect in my eyes. Well, guess what Granny

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Speaker 4: is guilty. Granny is guilty. Guilty, So Donna Adelson, she

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Speaker 4: was found guilty in the hired hit of her daughter

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Speaker 4: ex husband Dan Markel in Florida. The jury only deliberated

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Speaker 4: for three hours today. So today where it's closing arguments.

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Speaker 4: The closing arguments ended. The jury went into deliberation at

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Speaker 4: four eighteen pm. And listen, I thought that it was done.

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Speaker 4: I did our work on the rundown, I typed up

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Speaker 4: all my notes from watching closing arguments and went about

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Speaker 4: my day. Twenty minutes before we need to go live

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Speaker 4: on the show, the verdict comes in and I had.

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Speaker 3: To redo everything. I was like, ah, so yeah, guilty.

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Speaker 4: And there was an audible gasp from her when she

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Speaker 4: got the verdict and she started like crying, and the

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Speaker 4: judge like admonished her, like publicly, like calmed down, you know,

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Speaker 4: like it was I was embarrassed for her.

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Speaker 3: It was. It was a scene.

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Speaker 1: So Granny, it felt like, was visibly surprised, like she

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Speaker 1: thought she.

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Speaker 3: Was going to walk. I do think so. I do

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Speaker 3: think so.

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Speaker 4: So the jury delivered this really dramatic blow to this

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Speaker 4: Noah's and this is not the first person in her

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Speaker 4: family to be convicted of this crime. So her son,

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Speaker 4: Charlie the dentist, he's already been convicted.

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Speaker 3: Didn't she grow him.

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Speaker 1: Under the bus too, though, and basically said, Charlie made

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Speaker 1: me do it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, she threw.

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Speaker 4: Her son under the bus, and in closing arguments, her

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Speaker 4: lawyer also threw her daughter, Wendy under the bus.

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Speaker 6: Has not been charged, so I thought, yeah, her attorney

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Speaker 6: Wendy dirty.

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Speaker 4: So we might be talking about a Wendy trial coming up,

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Speaker 4: you know, stay tuned for that. But yeah, threw under

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Speaker 4: the bus. And I'll get into that if we want

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Speaker 4: to go into the nitty gritty.

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Speaker 5: I got it.

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Speaker 4: All typed it all up for the closing arguments that

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Speaker 4: I was going to present tonight. But yeah, things changed.

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Speaker 4: So they found seventy five year old Donna Edelson guilty

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Speaker 4: of first degree murder, conspiracy, and solicitation of murder in

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Speaker 4: the twenty fourteen contract killing of her former son in

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Speaker 4: law Florida State Universe. To the law professor Danielle, Daniel Danielle.

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Speaker 4: It's not Danielle, Daniel French. I did Danielle. You know,

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Speaker 4: in the case, it's been in the Florida it's mesmerized

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Speaker 4: by the whole state of Florida for the past ten years.

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Speaker 4: This has been ongoing. At the moment of the verdict,

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Speaker 4: she audibly glack gasped, tears flowed, and she really began

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Speaker 4: to like kind of shake. The court paused proceedings briefly

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Speaker 4: to allow her to compose herself, amid stern admonishment from

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Speaker 4: Judge Stephen Everett to reign in her emotions, like how embarrassing.

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Speaker 4: Marcel's mother, Ruth, the victim in this case, delivered a

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Speaker 4: really searing victim impact statement shortly afterward, and she was

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Speaker 4: saying that for over a decade, her whole family has

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Speaker 4: been in anguish.

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Speaker 3: She said, I'm going to quote here. We have lost

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Speaker 3: a treasure.

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Speaker 4: My son Dan's life was cut tragically short at forty

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Speaker 4: one years old, she said, describing a life of you know,

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Speaker 4: scarred by grief.

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Speaker 3: Now you know that she lost her son.

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Speaker 1: I mean could not be Yeah, he was a really

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Speaker 1: successful man. And these are women that attended their kids

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Speaker 1: wedding together.

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Speaker 3: Do you know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: They's a mother in law's together now obviously very torn apart,

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Speaker 1: couldn't it.

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Speaker 3: What were you going to say?

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Speaker 5: Oh, just what a waste?

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Speaker 6: And also, this is the father of your grandchildren, for

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Speaker 6: whom you're allegedly, in whatever kind of backwards mind she

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Speaker 6: had working for her, doing this for and now their

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Speaker 6: father is dead and grandma's attorney is throwing the kid's mother,

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Speaker 6: who has not been charged, under the bus.

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Speaker 1: So let's just do an actual body account here. So

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Speaker 1: Granny decides she wants Wendy, her daughter, to live closer

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Speaker 1: to her with the two children, and then Dad victim says, no, dice, no,

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Speaker 1: we can't leave. I have a job, I'm at the university.

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Speaker 1: I got a good thing going here. That's not going on.

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Speaker 3: I love my kids.

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Speaker 1: I love my kids way period the end. So then

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Speaker 1: Granny's not having that. So grand any potentially allegedly allegedly

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Speaker 1: allegedly lists her son.

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Speaker 4: Or by allegedly allegedly allegedly anymore.

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Speaker 3: Guilty Granny.

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Speaker 1: So Granny gets her son, Charlie in the mix. The

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Speaker 1: dentist also has a lot going for him, has a

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Speaker 1: little bit of a girlfriend. The girlfriend though a little bit,

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Speaker 1: she has some dangerous friends. So you know, Granny loves

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Speaker 1: her son. Son is saying, you know, my girlfriend has

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Speaker 1: some odd people in her circles, a lot of King's connections,

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Speaker 1: and maybe we can off this guy and get him

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Speaker 1: out of our way. And then the plot begins. They

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Speaker 1: sit around and have murder meetings. Courtney, what is this

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Speaker 1: reminding you of the massacre as a family? Think about how.

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Speaker 3: Delent I don't even think about that. Yes, it's I mean,

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Speaker 3: it's next level.

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Speaker 1: And then you're also as a mother, which is why

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Speaker 1: Granny is extra crazed. Granny is putting her own chillildren

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Speaker 1: in the way here. Not only is she putting them

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Speaker 1: in the line of fire for prison time, she's also

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Speaker 1: putting them in a very dangerous situation as well to

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Speaker 1: do her dirty work. So it's a little Manson esque, right,

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Speaker 1: like I'm not going to get my hands dirty. I'll

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Speaker 1: let those around me get their hands dirty. It's crazy thinking,

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Speaker 1: really when you imagine something like this, and now she's

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Speaker 1: throwing her daughter under the bus.

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Speaker 6: Well, I love how Granny's defense attorney did defend her,

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Speaker 6: and that was a tough job.

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Speaker 5: It was so I feel I feel I should backtrack

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Speaker 5: outfit yesterday.

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Speaker 6: But you know what she what she said about very

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Speaker 6: nice she did. Yes, you know she's a mother, not

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Speaker 6: a meddler, Right, I.

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Speaker 1: Mean I would say that's entirely untrue. Right, This would

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Speaker 1: prove that that is very much not the case.

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Speaker 3: That she's very much that jury says, that's what the

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Speaker 3: jury says.

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Speaker 4: So the killing was executed by two hitmen, which we've

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Speaker 4: kind already talked about a little bit. They were Sigfredo

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Speaker 4: Garcia and he received a life sentence, and then Louis Rivera.

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Speaker 4: He worked with prosecution and like kind of testified against people,

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Speaker 4: so he got nineteen years after his cooperation. Donna's son,

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Speaker 4: Charlie the dentist, he got life in prison for his

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Speaker 4: role in hiring the hitmen. And the goal between Catherine

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Speaker 4: and the girlfriend, right, the one who had the Latin

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Speaker 4: King's connections to the gang and hired the hitmen. She

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Speaker 4: acted as kind of like the go between. She also

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Speaker 4: got life in prison. So literally four people got life

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Speaker 4: in prison and one got nineteen years, and there might

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Speaker 4: be more coming, who knows, who knows? Yeah, right, wow, absolutely,

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Speaker 4: As a reminder, she was arrested in twenty twenty three

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Speaker 4: as she attempted to board a one way flight to

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Speaker 4: Vietnam again. And that's a country without an extradition agreement

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Speaker 4: with the United States, just weeks after her son's conviction, So.

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Speaker 3: She knew what was coming, right.

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Speaker 4: She knew the arrest was coming as soon as Charlie

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Speaker 4: was convicted, and she tried to get the heck out

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Speaker 4: of here and go to Vietnam, where she knew she

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Speaker 4: wouldn't have to come back to the United States.

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Speaker 1: I'm kind of curious where dad is, Where's Granny's husband,

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Speaker 1: Where's where's Grandpa.

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Speaker 3: We're going to find out about that.

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Speaker 4: I don't know his level of involvement, if anything, it

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Speaker 4: might be nothing.

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Speaker 3: I'm hesitant to say anything about him. I do.

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Speaker 1: Maybe he's got a being gone, he had a killer,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, many many.

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Speaker 4: Years perhaps, and his son and maybe even his daughter,

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Speaker 4: oh right, Wendy's daughter, his son, Charlie.

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Speaker 5: I don't know.

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Speaker 4: I don't know what's going to happen with him. I really,

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Speaker 4: I really don't. I'm kind of hesitant to.

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Speaker 1: He's really been kept out of the research that I'm

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Speaker 1: seeing too. He really has close to entirely been kept

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Speaker 1: out of it. For a hot second, I even questioned,

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Speaker 1: was Grandpa working for the prosecution, because he's really like

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Speaker 1: never being mentioned here other than like, ooh, surprise, I'm

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Speaker 1: at the airport on a one way ticket with my

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Speaker 1: wife and Granny gets arrested. He does not, right, Did

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Speaker 1: he maybe tip them off that they were going to

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Speaker 1: be on that flight? This is all again, I am

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Speaker 1: I am on a limb. This is based on nothing.

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Speaker 3: No, but you might be onto something. I mean, it

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Speaker 3: is possible.

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Speaker 4: I mean, listen, this is a family that's going to

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Speaker 4: be spending the rest of their life in prison for

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Speaker 4: trying to rain to get control over.

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Speaker 5: Their closer to their family.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, to get closer to their family. And now

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Speaker 4: they're all separated. Oh and by the way, do you

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Speaker 4: guys remember Sarah Boone. No, Sarah Boone killed her boyfriend

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Speaker 4: by locking him in that clock that suitcase.

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Speaker 3: Oh my goodness.

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Speaker 4: Yes, Okay, Well, I think she's going to be in

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Speaker 4: the same prison as Donna. I think they're going to

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Speaker 4: be in prison together. Sarah, the crazy Sarah, by the way,

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Speaker 4: she keeps like, you know, she fired like all her attorneys,

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Speaker 4: her attorney crazy trial always firing her, yes, or they're

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Speaker 4: quitting on her because she's insane.

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Speaker 3: And I think she's going to be in the same

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Speaker 3: prison as Donna, I really do. I don't know for sure.

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Speaker 4: Sentencing is going to be in October, so we'll keep

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Speaker 4: everybody updated on all that. But there's a mandatory minimum

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Speaker 4: of life, I do believe.

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Speaker 3: And Granny's not going home anytime soon.

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Speaker 4: So we know that she's never going home again.

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Speaker 1: And then mom daughter of Granny is Wendy. Wendy has

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Speaker 1: Wendy not been involved. Her husband or now ex husband

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Speaker 1: was the victim. The kids are with her, she's raising

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Speaker 1: them while now her brother and mother both behind bars,

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Speaker 1: along with brother's ex girlfriend and a hit man to

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Speaker 1: the two hitmen. Yet the two hitmen never gets away

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Speaker 1: with it, by the way, literally no.

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Speaker 3: Never, I don't know. It never seems like they ever

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Speaker 3: get it.

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Speaker 4: They're the first to go right, and they're probably going

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Speaker 4: to be the first to blab too. They got no

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Speaker 4: you know, emotional connection to the people that hire them, right.

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Speaker 4: I mean, if I listen, if I was a hit man,

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Speaker 4: I'm throwing you under the bus if I get caught,

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Speaker 4: I'm telling you right now. Yeah, it's to save my

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Speaker 4: own butt, right, Like, Okay, what's what's the money to me?

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Speaker 4: I can't use it now, so I'm going to try

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Speaker 4: to save my skin and testify against everybody at hit man.

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Speaker 3: You're grading on a very big moral.

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Speaker 4: Curve, right, Like, do not hire me to be your hitman,

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Speaker 4: because I'm squealing. I promise you that to save my

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Speaker 4: own hide one hundred percent.

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Speaker 6: Well, and if you want to ask Body any questions

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Speaker 6: except for will you be my hit man, you can

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Speaker 6: give us a call. We're at eight and eight three

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Speaker 6: to one crime. This, of course is crime tonight.

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Speaker 5: And Body. That was a great summation of granny.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll keep nice.

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Speaker 5: What a case? Yeah? No, she really?

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Speaker 6: You know.

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Speaker 4: I kind of wonder though, So Wendy got limited immunity

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Speaker 4: for testifying because she did have some information and they

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Speaker 4: but the prosecution has said that that doesn't mean charges

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Speaker 4: won't be coming to her. So I don't know what

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Speaker 4: kind of immunity she's going to be or what kind

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Speaker 4: of immunity she has.

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Speaker 3: I didn't really look into it too deeply.

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Speaker 4: I kind of want to now that it's over and

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Speaker 4: I have some time because I'm not going to be

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Speaker 4: watching this all day. Yeah, because I've been obsessed with

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Speaker 4: us in wait.

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Speaker 1: Friend has so daughter has semi limited extent of which

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Speaker 1: we do not know. And is it possible that Wendy

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Speaker 1: is the one who put the nail in the coffin

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Speaker 1: on Granny?

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Speaker 5: I don't know. Well.

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Speaker 4: In the defense's closing arguments, it says that you might

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Speaker 4: be sitting in that jury room thinking, well, Charlie did it,

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Speaker 4: and it sure looks like Wendy did it. They totally

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Speaker 4: threw her under the bus in the closing arguments, threw

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Speaker 4: under the bus.

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Speaker 3: You never know what happens behind closed doors. This was

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Speaker 3: an affluent family.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, listen, Granny, act in haste and repent at your leisure.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 1: We're so glad you're with us because we're going to

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Speaker 1: discuss this newly released information about what could have been

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Speaker 1: happening in Brian Coberger's mind. First of all, the photos

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Speaker 1: of his apartment have been released, and we promised an unpack,

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Speaker 1: so we're going to get to some of that very

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Speaker 1: very shortly. And also in the second hour, we're talking

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Speaker 1: to renowned scientist Cecymore about a groundbreaking case that she's

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Speaker 1: working on currently.

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Speaker 3: But also just she is the person.

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Speaker 1: She is the original og queen of DNA sequencing. So

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Speaker 1: if you have any questions, please jump in share them.

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Speaker 1: We're happy to share them with her as well. Eight

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Speaker 1: eight eight three one crime or just leave us a

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Speaker 1: talk back.

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Speaker 3: So first though, we have to.

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Speaker 1: Get to this Epstein missing minute. What is happening in

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Speaker 1: Courtney Armstrong? What do you think?

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Speaker 6: Okay, I have information, but it raises more questions for

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Speaker 6: me anyway than answers. Okay, all of us may very

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Speaker 6: likely remember that there was a missing one minute in

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Speaker 6: the surveillance footage from Jeffrey Epstein's jail cell, so the

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Speaker 6: night that he died, that's correct, from the night that

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Speaker 6: he died, And what we were told by Pam Bondi was, oh,

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Speaker 6: this happens every single night at the prison. It resets,

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Speaker 6: they lose a minute. It's the video system. So that's

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Speaker 6: what we were told. Okay, seems odd, but there we are. Anyway,

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Speaker 6: that minute has now reappeared, which of course contradicts the

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Speaker 6: official claims of that minute that we were told about,

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Speaker 6: and it raises a bunch of new questions about oversight,

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Speaker 6: transparency in the case, all the things.

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Speaker 3: And just to kind of reset on that a little bit.

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Speaker 1: The big suspicion is that Jeffrey Epstein, accused sex trafficker

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Speaker 1: and convicted sex trafficker. I might add that he committed

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Speaker 1: suicide in his jail cell, and they had released footage

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Speaker 1: that would prove that there was nothing ne farious behind that.

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Speaker 1: Because it was all so alleged, maybe by conspiracy theorists,

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Speaker 1: that he was actually murdered in a very specific amount

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Speaker 1: of time, that all seems like crazy talk until we

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Speaker 1: started talking to forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan. And then

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Speaker 1: and then, and then this is backed by many. This

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Speaker 1: is no longer a theory that maybe he was killed

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Speaker 1: and it wasn't suicide. So they released the tapes. But

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Speaker 1: then there's a missing minute of these tapes. And we

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Speaker 1: talked about this to nauseum earlier in the you know,

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Speaker 1: we first kicked off, you know, about the metadata and

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Speaker 1: the timing, and it just seemed crazy. But it was

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Speaker 1: fine because Pam Bondi, as you mentioned, Court Attorney General,

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Speaker 1: said no, no, no, that's like status quo. That's what

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Speaker 1: happens every night we miss a minute because it's like

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Speaker 1: the VHS tape somehow reboots or not to get super

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Speaker 1: in the sauce on the technical stuff. There seems to

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Speaker 1: be no technical stuff at play here, so it was

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Speaker 1: all like swept under the rug. And now this minute

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Speaker 1: is back and it's making people even more enraged it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well it's I feel like my insult I feel

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Speaker 4: like my intelligence is being insulted constantly.

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Speaker 6: Well that's exactly right, Body, because this minute, which is

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Speaker 6: miraculously back, video experts have noted not minor technical issues,

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Speaker 6: but really serious, absolutely glaring technical inconsistencies within this new footage.

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Speaker 5: So the resolution is degraded. That means it just it

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Speaker 5: doesn't look.

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Speaker 1: As crisp, it's like pixelated almost.

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Speaker 3: Yes, and go ahead, No, no, it's okay. Continue.

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Speaker 6: There's missing metadata which Body schooled us about, which shows

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Speaker 6: you know, the authenticity of where something comes from. And

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Speaker 6: also the frame rate, which means how fast things go by,

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Speaker 6: went from nearly thirty to four. What that means is

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Speaker 6: you can see it with your eyeballs that it's it's different.

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Speaker 6: It's simply different, and.

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Speaker 4: It's visually different. I mean you can tell immediately it's

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Speaker 4: different exactly.

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Speaker 1: And this was being supplied to us by the House

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Speaker 1: Committee Oversight Commission. Right because that's the same the House

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Speaker 1: Oversight Committee. Rather, they are also the ones who gave

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Speaker 1: us the recent document dump that also has been criticized

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Speaker 1: for being, you know, very repetitive, and also that ninety

390
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Speaker 1: seven percent of those documents were already in the public domain.

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Speaker 1: But again, there's two sides to all of this. Or

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Speaker 1: is it possible that this is the missing one minute

393
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Speaker 1: and everybody had it wrong and they were just confused.

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Speaker 1: And granted, it is a fairly critical minute because Jeffrey

395
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Speaker 1: Epstein died allegedly during you know, this is the night.

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Speaker 3: All of those.

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Speaker 1: Minutes kind of count to put together a really good

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Speaker 1: forensance profile of what could have happened. But you know,

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Speaker 1: here we are, why would they feed it to us

400
00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:59,399
Speaker 1: though if they knew it was going to be inconsistent?

401
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:02,560
Speaker 3: And I don't know what's worse. Okay, let's play it out,

402
00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:05,080
Speaker 3: just work out. Let's just like work through it exactly.

403
00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:06,720
Speaker 3: What's worse is.

404
00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:09,879
Speaker 4: It that Pam Bondie and the government lied to us

405
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Speaker 4: about the missing minute, meaning that the jail.

406
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Speaker 3: Doesn't over you know, reboot or whatever.

407
00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:20,280
Speaker 1: Dan did too, So Dan Boo also down on the

408
00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:24,159
Speaker 1: mysterious missing at night because that was standard stuff.

409
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Speaker 4: So is it is what's worse that they lied to

410
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Speaker 4: us or maybe that that's what the prison told them

411
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Speaker 4: and they didn't even investigate it. So what's worse that

412
00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,359
Speaker 4: dark they didn't even look into it to verify that

413
00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:39,320
Speaker 4: this is what happens every night at midnight, or that

414
00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:42,360
Speaker 4: they lied to us into our faces about it well,

415
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Speaker 4: and that.

416
00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:45,320
Speaker 3: They didn't even think we would notice.

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Speaker 5: Well, exactly right, and but it was also.

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Speaker 1: I'm coniou, I am making everybody sneezy.

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00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:00,440
Speaker 3: I know this is okay.

420
00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:05,720
Speaker 1: Everybody needs there's the ginger asap, I need a butler,

421
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:07,480
Speaker 1: I need my friends in Michigan.

422
00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:13,040
Speaker 3: Why don't we all have room service? Oh shoo, there's

423
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Speaker 3: no room service?

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Speaker 6: Sorry, court, Yeah, buddy, it's all insulting because as you

425
00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:20,320
Speaker 6: said this, you know, whether it wasn't investigated, which doesn't

426
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:23,080
Speaker 6: make any sense because my understanding, and that is that

427
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:27,199
Speaker 6: this information was at at points or all points in

428
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Speaker 6: the hands of the FBI and the CIA to mention

429
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:33,639
Speaker 6: two agencies who have been mentioned. But then also to

430
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:36,679
Speaker 6: think that's that's what I don't understand the most is

431
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:41,440
Speaker 6: this now reappeared one minute. How wildly out of whack

432
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Speaker 6: it is that no one could look at it and say, oh,

433
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:47,960
Speaker 6: this is just a minute. No, I mean, what's being

434
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:51,879
Speaker 6: thought and these are from forensic video experts or anyone

435
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,520
Speaker 6: who's ever watched a TV screen in their life.

436
00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:57,720
Speaker 1: And by the way, we are actually the people that

437
00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:01,000
Speaker 1: are being the most impressionable. Like I would fold by much.

438
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:03,719
Speaker 1: This does not fool but not everybody.

439
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,920
Speaker 6: No, it look and what and what the thought is

440
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:11,040
Speaker 6: is that it was potentially it was filmed off of

441
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:14,119
Speaker 6: some other video screen, like if you do put your

442
00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:16,920
Speaker 6: phone up to you know, a football game to send

443
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:20,280
Speaker 6: something to a friend, you can tell So I don't

444
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,000
Speaker 6: know it just again, here's that's the information.

445
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,119
Speaker 5: But I feel like it's only more questions than answers.

446
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:28,879
Speaker 1: I'm so curious what you guys have to say, like,

447
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:32,120
Speaker 1: please jump in tell us what you think of this,

448
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:34,439
Speaker 1: because again, are we seeing it wrong?

449
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:35,720
Speaker 3: Somehow?

450
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:38,800
Speaker 1: This seems like we're just adding more fuel to this

451
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,960
Speaker 1: already very aggressive fire happening behind closed doors.

452
00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:47,720
Speaker 3: Why even release this minute? Suddenly it makes no sense.

453
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:51,439
Speaker 1: It doesn't further the narrative, it doesn't help anything. It

454
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:55,640
Speaker 1: actually opens more doors at this point. There's the question too.

455
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,440
Speaker 1: By the way, there is like I called it raw footage.

456
00:23:58,440 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 1: But it's nice, said I.

457
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,640
Speaker 4: But video experts are saying looks like a screen recording,

458
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:05,840
Speaker 4: so like they launched whatever software on their desktop to

459
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 4: record the raw footage. Right, we need the raw footage,

460
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:12,119
Speaker 4: we need the raw metadata, you.

461
00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 3: Know what I mean? Well that too. Let's just show

462
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:17,720
Speaker 3: us the top save report.

463
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:20,200
Speaker 1: I thought that, you know, go right to the photographs

464
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 1: of the photographs of the crime scene, like often happen.

465
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 3: Let's get the photographs at the Morgue, and we've seen them.

466
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:28,080
Speaker 3: We've seen them.

467
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,920
Speaker 1: We've seen the morg photos, which I wish I hadn't,

468
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 1: but I have, we all have. They were in a

469
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:38,200
Speaker 1: morgad though, and he had been changed out of certain

470
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,199
Speaker 1: clusters at that point, so there was no consistency in

471
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 1: terms of the crime scene itself. I don't recall there

472
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,639
Speaker 1: being crime scene photos, and if there are, we haven't

473
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 1: seen them. But many reputable, top level, the top dogs

474
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 1: in forensics are saying across the something is not adding

475
00:24:57,640 --> 00:24:58,600
Speaker 1: up in terms of.

476
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 3: The suicide perception.

477
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 1: And by the way, why is some guard working eight

478
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:06,320
Speaker 1: hours for three.

479
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 3: Shifts straight, twenty four hour shift?

480
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 5: First off?

481
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 3: What is that?

482
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,439
Speaker 1: How is that keeping anything safe in this world? I

483
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:15,920
Speaker 1: mean again, this is all pieces of information that seem

484
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 1: like either the worst night ever perfect storm for anything

485
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 1: to occur. But there should be some more proof than this.

486
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 1: And why are we using VHS tapes? Like how is

487
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 1: that even possible? Like it's all bananas. But again maybe

488
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 1: we're just like I don't also want to be perpetuating

489
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 1: a narrative either, if that makes sense.

490
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,399
Speaker 4: Well no, well of course not. But I mean, at

491
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 4: the same time, so hard it's insulting. Like I said,

492
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:46,119
Speaker 4: so weigh in on this forest. What do you have

493
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:47,440
Speaker 4: to say about it? Give us a call eight to

494
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 4: eight thirty one crime. This is true crime tonight on iHeartRadio.

495
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 4: I'm Body Moven and I'm here with Courtney Armstrong and

496
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,359
Speaker 4: Stephanielyidecker and we're talking about Epstein right now and this

497
00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 4: missing minute. But I think we're going to move forward

498
00:25:58,800 --> 00:25:59,719
Speaker 4: into some headlines.

499
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 5: Is that right? There's a lot What do we got?

500
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 3: What we got?

501
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 5: So this one.

502
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 6: We have been covering this for so long. There has

503
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 6: been the months long manhunt for Travis Decker. He, of course,

504
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 6: is the man who's accused of killing his three daughters,

505
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 6: all under the age of ten, and there was a

506
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:20,879
Speaker 6: moment that we thought, oh my goodness, perhaps there is

507
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 6: a break in the case. Bones were found, but unfortunately,

508
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 6: the FBI has confirmed the bones they found near the

509
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 6: Washington campsite they are not human bones. So the search continues.

510
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 6: The intrepidness of all of these sheriffs and agents is unbelievable,

511
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:47,159
Speaker 6: and they confirmed plans to expand further into new areas

512
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 6: as resources become available.

513
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 5: So that's the update on Travis Decker. So in this moment,

514
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 5: still at large.

515
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 1: I mean, they've had so many false alarms. I now

516
00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 1: too for law enforcement who have just been so deadicate.

517
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 1: Remember there was the guy that was, you know, wrongly spotted.

518
00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 1: They saw, we saw him in the woods. Of course

519
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 1: it was not him. It was just a camper who

520
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,919
Speaker 1: just slightly resembled him. You know, Thank goodness, there was

521
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 1: no shots fired or anything. Now the bones, It just

522
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,480
Speaker 1: seems like there's been these little tips along the way

523
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 1: that have not panned out. And as a reminder, if

524
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 1: in fact he is alive, he is very armed and

525
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 1: very dangerous.

526
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 3: Mm hmm.

527
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 6: That's right, that is very true. And did we have

528
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:36,639
Speaker 6: an update on Cardi B. Cardi B was found not

529
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 6: guilty and she doesn't be this nice the second time around.

530
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:46,639
Speaker 6: She will not play this nicely if there is another lawless,

531
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 6: silly lawsuit brought up against her. She is going to

532
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 6: be nice this one time, but if you come at

533
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,399
Speaker 6: her with one more frivolous lawsuit, she will not be

534
00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:01,679
Speaker 6: playing I'm paraphrasing, but she has seen her moment. Basically, yeah,

535
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 6: she was pregnant. If you haven't been following a long party,

536
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 6: be the you know, infamous pop uh star?

537
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 3: Is she pop star? Is that how we would refer

538
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:13,120
Speaker 3: to her? Yes, of course she's a personality crass right?

539
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 3: Is she a rapper?

540
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 1: Pop?

541
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:15,720
Speaker 3: Rap?

542
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:17,119
Speaker 5: Both categories?

543
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,200
Speaker 3: You could say pop stars. She's kind of enough. Yeah,

544
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 3: she's a total riot.

545
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,640
Speaker 1: By the way, even in a very difficult situation where

546
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 1: you're you know, you're up against a real civil lawsuit

547
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:29,720
Speaker 1: here of you know, tens.

548
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 5: Of twenty four million dollars million line twenty.

549
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 1: To think about, it's like tens of thousands of dollars

550
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 1: an hour in legal fees even, you know, like it's

551
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 1: you're going out of your way and spending out of

552
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 1: pocket even just to indulge.

553
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 4: But the fact that she was even being sued for

554
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 4: what they what they ledge happened is ridiculous, Like does

555
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 4: none of this was her fault? No, she was like

556
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 4: basically assaulted at her gynecologists office, right she.

557
00:28:56,000 --> 00:29:00,160
Speaker 1: Was she was pregnant and the public was unaware of

558
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 1: this pregnancy. So it was in the very early stages

559
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 1: and she travels with security and in doing so, some well,

560
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 1: I guess we could now say a someone who was

561
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 1: also in her vicinity at the doctor's office like kind

562
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 1: of came mat her and you know, they weren't going

563
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 1: to stand for it. She was a woman that was

564
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 1: just newly carrying her first child and is probably a

565
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 1: little sick of dealing with like fans or people trying

566
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 1: to get a rise out of her. She's a particularly

567
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 1: big personality on top of it. So any know, look

568
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 1: she's like she's carrying her first baby, so she's very

569
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 1: precious moments. So anyway, she wins, but she had to

570
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 1: go to court quite a bit, and you know, when

571
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 1: you have to do that.

572
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 3: We saw this with Gwyneth Paltrow as well.

573
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 1: You know, sometimes this becomes a stage, and this becomes

574
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 1: a stage that's also a very expensive one. Like party

575
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 1: had to go to court and she had to testify

576
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 1: and she had to be on a stage and she

577
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 1: had to relive some of this stuff. I mean there's

578
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 1: a lot of money on the line, and by all accounts,

579
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 1: the jury finds her innocent.

580
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 3: Yay, Cary, be happy for you, Carty. She's riotous beyondo.

581
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 1: If you have not been checking in with Cardi B recently,

582
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 1: watching her in court was pretty sounding like there was

583
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 1: a whole room it.

584
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 3: Was like dying laughing at one point, like her.

585
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 4: Just the faces she was making stand it was just

586
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 4: like she's like a little bit of a lucial ball.

587
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, she has very lucile ball.

588
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 1: That's like she would probably be a great like comedic

589
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 1: actress or an improv actress.

590
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 4: That is such a good idea for our show, A

591
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 4: modern and Cardi B is a star.

592
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:45,479
Speaker 3: And she's the star of it.

593
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 1: Like, okay, so we've already cracked it so well, well,

594
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 1: none of us will be back to twenty Things. We'll

595
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 1: be making this TV show with Cardi B.

596
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 3: But like Offset, in the moment she is laugh out loud.

597
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 3: The end she is right is Offset the husband Offset.

598
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 1: I don't think he's the husband anymore though, there's no

599
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 1: more Offset. That's my whole opinion the offset thing is off.

600
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 3: You're absolutely right. Well, partie deserves better.

601
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, Cardi, but we'll find you a good man.

602
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 3: To play the red guest. Listen.

603
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 1: Later in the show, we have the Queen herself, C C. Moore,

604
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 1: the Queen of DNA sequencing. By the way, if you

605
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 1: allD us at a gasp like us, this was a

606
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 1: very big thing.

607
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 3: When we discovered that CC was coming on. We all

608
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 3: got so excited. I didn't believe Taha. I was like,

609
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 3: I was sure, are you sure?

610
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 1: Because she's the one.

611
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 3: We're so lucky iconic.

612
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 1: So there's many of that to come, much of that

613
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 1: to come. So if you have any DNA questions, specifically

614
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 1: for CC Moore, if you follow True crime super closely,

615
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 1: you you know who we're speaking of.

616
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 4: So joining when it comes to genetic genealogy, right, because

617
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 4: we've been talking about that a lot, you know with Brian.

618
00:31:54,320 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 1: Coberg, Brian Coburger's such as absolutely and also this you

619
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 1: know Emmanuel Harrow. There has been an update in court

620
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 1: court and do you want to give us to us

621
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 1: the sure summary.

622
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 6: Yeah, we've been following this seven month seven month old

623
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 6: Emmanuel Harrow. He was reported missing by his mother last month,

624
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 6: that was the middle of August. The mother initially claimed

625
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 6: he was kidnapped. That has borne out it does not.

626
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 5: Appear to be true.

627
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 6: So what has happened is the parents of this baby

628
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 6: pled not guilty today both to murder and to false

629
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 6: reporting charges.

630
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 5: So standing by it. That's right, They're standing by it.

631
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 6: And both of the parents remain in custody on a

632
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 6: million dollar bond each. And you know, we'll follow with

633
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 6: more as it comes. There is a preliminary hearing for

634
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 6: the case. It's scheduled for September seventeenth.

635
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 5: So we will keep you updated on that.

636
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 1: Interesting the prelum, that's the pre limb apparently. But what

637
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 1: was curious is that there did seem to be some

638
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 1: law enforcement traveling with dad to specific locations, which we

639
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 1: kind of thought meant that maybe Dad was turning on

640
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 1: mom or maybe leading authorities to something terrible, but that

641
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 1: doesn't seem to have really been the case.

642
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 5: No.

643
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 6: I mean, we do know that the father was indeed

644
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 6: out with authorities, and it did from the pictures appear

645
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 6: that he was potentially going to say here are remains,

646
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 6: here is a weapon, but nothing came out from that.

647
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 3: He has a pretty checkered pass too.

648
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 1: So Dad has also been accused of harming his older child,

649
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 1: who now has IT, has lifetime issues that are pretty unspeakable.

650
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 4: So he was able to take parenting classes basically to

651
00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 4: get out of it. It's horrifying, horrifying. Yeah, absolute horrifying,

652
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 4: But I understand.

653
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 6: We have a talk about exactly we're gonna Yeah, change

654
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 6: it up, go to the talk back.

655
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 7: Hi, this is Katford, Phoenix, Arizona. I just want to

656
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:18,920
Speaker 7: say I'm not defending uh Colberger in any way. However,

657
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 7: I think that maybe his autistic courts are being overlooked

658
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:31,359
Speaker 7: a little bit. You're talking about the red hands. That

659
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 7: could be because he's in a situation that he's uncomfortable

660
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:40,080
Speaker 7: with and he's wringing his hands too much. The washing

661
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:44,320
Speaker 7: of his hands excessively is also a trait of autism.

662
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,400
Speaker 7: I know this because I have a child who is autistic,

663
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 7: and the voices that he's hearing the other inmates that

664
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:57,359
Speaker 7: he's hearing could be irritating or agitating that autism. But

665
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 7: I'm not you know, I'm not defending him at all.

666
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 7: I'm just saying that, you know, I think his autism

667
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 7: traits that people are looking at as odd behavior. But

668
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:11,400
Speaker 7: let me know what you think.

669
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,360
Speaker 1: By the way to that end, and I thought, I

670
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 1: know you want to jump in. When we were making

671
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 1: the doc we we cut a big section out of

672
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 1: the documentary because in the documentary is on Peacock, the

673
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 1: Idaho student murders, because it does go into potentially OCD

674
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 1: autism some of the things that he's been labeled with

675
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 1: that really would sort of not justify, but would explain

676
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:38,359
Speaker 1: explain some of these behavioral traits which he clearly had, right,

677
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 1: he did not have an understanding of any social cues.

678
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:44,239
Speaker 1: Just generally speaking, this is not a guy that walked

679
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 1: into her room and understood any of the vibe, period

680
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:50,839
Speaker 1: no matter what room he was in. We see obsessive

681
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:54,319
Speaker 1: behavior with mom and dad phone calls, which we'll get

682
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,880
Speaker 1: you later. So check check check check. That does actually

683
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 1: check a lot of boxes. On the flip of that.

684
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:03,560
Speaker 1: We would never want the autism community, by the way,

685
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 1: amazing talk back and really what a caregiver for your child.

686
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 1: We don't want the autism community to feel slighted. That's

687
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 1: suddenly like, oh well this is why it must be autistic.

688
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:18,719
Speaker 3: That's not fair either, right, So it is a really

689
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:19,919
Speaker 3: layered thing.

690
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,319
Speaker 1: We ultimately took it out of the documentary for all

691
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 1: the obvious reasons that we just talked about. But I

692
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 1: do think it's worth exploring. I do, And I think

693
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 1: that's a really valid point.

694
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know it. I think it explains a

695
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:34,280
Speaker 3: lot of things.

696
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 4: And you know, just recently, one of the like the

697
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:41,719
Speaker 4: in a handwritten document, there's this guilty where he's entering

698
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 4: his guilty plea and he hasd to answer questions. It

699
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:49,280
Speaker 4: was revealed in his own handwriting his diagnosises and I

700
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:49,719
Speaker 4: got them.

701
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:51,359
Speaker 3: If we want to go over them, let's go over them.

702
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:51,840
Speaker 8: Yeah.

703
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, So his diagnosises include autism, love and it says

704
00:36:55,719 --> 00:37:02,279
Speaker 4: level one OCD ADHD and the disorder a r f

705
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 4: I D ARPHID. I hope, I hope that's appropriate to

706
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 4: say ARPHID, which is avoidant restrictive food and take disorder.

707
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 4: And I have never heard of that before. So Courtney

708
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 4: and I were looking at it because we were like, well,

709
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 4: what is that, and it's it's it's kind of a

710
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:24,239
Speaker 4: sensory issue and I don't know if it's tied to

711
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 4: his autism. It could be, but it's basically it's not

712
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 4: about your body image. It's not about like bolimia or

713
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 4: anorexia where you're concerned you're concerned about gaining weight or

714
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 4: you know you have like a body dysmorphia or anything

715
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 4: like that. It's tied to sensory issues with food, and

716
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 4: it's also tied to a fear of choking or throwing vomiting,

717
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 4: throwing up things like that, or stomach pain. So it's

718
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 4: it's it's completely different from his weight, because we do

719
00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:01,279
Speaker 4: know he experienced a radical weight loss, right. We initially

720
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 4: thought maybe he had something and he was worried about,

721
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,759
Speaker 4: you know, becoming heavier again, but that doesn't seem to

722
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:07,240
Speaker 4: be the case.

723
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 1: And just to track that to your point, that timeline

724
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:16,320
Speaker 1: is high school, you know, childhood years overweight his words,

725
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:21,439
Speaker 1: not hours. Maybe was made fun of because of that, bullied, etc.

726
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 1: At some point post high school, he does a real

727
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,920
Speaker 1: shred down, and there's some drugs involved. He becomes a

728
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 1: pretty good drug addict, also heroin. If I'm not mistaken,

729
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 1: it is heroin, I'm not mistaken. So he becomes, you know,

730
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 1: a very big drug addict that also maybe aids in

731
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 1: the weight loss.

732
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:42,440
Speaker 3: Then he kicks the drugs, and by the way.

733
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,400
Speaker 1: Getting off of heroin is no easy task, so it

734
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:51,040
Speaker 1: takes a certain fortitude and commitment and devotion to yourself

735
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:53,320
Speaker 1: right to be able to pull that off. So times

736
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 1: are good, everybody probably can you imagine mom and dad,

737
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 1: his sister's everyone's so happy he kicked the habit.

738
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,280
Speaker 3: Now he's healthy and look at him. He's excelling.

739
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:04,279
Speaker 1: He's going to go to this great master's program in

740
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 1: PhD program in criminology at a very reputable school. Times

741
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 1: are going to look up. But maybe he has this

742
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 1: sensory thing, which means, right, he's like nervous about throwing up.

743
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 4: And some of the common signs are there's an extremely

744
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 4: extremely limited like list of acceptable food. One will eat

745
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:27,839
Speaker 4: less than twenty and you have anxiety or distress when

746
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 4: new foods are presented, slow eating or small portion intake,

747
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 4: and you rely a lot on like neutral I'm sorry,

748
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 4: nutritional drinks and like supplements and things like that because

749
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:40,799
Speaker 4: you have a less chance of like choking on them

750
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 4: and things like that. So, you know, when we were

751
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 4: talking about the complaints that he had about not getting

752
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 4: his food, you know, it's kind of deeper a little bit.

753
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:53,759
Speaker 4: Now you know, like maybe that you know, trigger one

754
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,279
Speaker 4: thing that he was counting on eating that he knew

755
00:39:56,360 --> 00:40:00,040
Speaker 4: was safe wasn't given to him that day, right, And

756
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,360
Speaker 4: and you know, we have these pictures that were released

757
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 4: of his apartment. In one of the pictures that was

758
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:07,800
Speaker 4: interesting was his refrigerator in freezer.

759
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 3: Yeah.

760
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:12,240
Speaker 4: And in those pictures we see a lot of different

761
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 4: vegan type of pizzas and there's like a ton of

762
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 4: them and tater tots, like a couple bags of tater dots.

763
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:20,880
Speaker 4: So those might have been on his safe food list,

764
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:22,919
Speaker 4: is what I'm kind of getting at.

765
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:23,279
Speaker 5: Yeah.

766
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 1: Even in his refrigerator itself too, it was like he

767
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:30,560
Speaker 1: had a lot of hummus. Yeah, he seemed to enjoy onions,

768
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:32,400
Speaker 1: a lot of onions. You know, there was like that

769
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 1: weird for the bottom of like a lot of onion peels.

770
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:38,759
Speaker 3: Like, by the way, don't put your onions in the refrigerator.

771
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 1: That's also a thing I was You took the thought

772
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 1: out of my head, did I really?

773
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 6: Yeah?

774
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 1: We like, by the way, if I was left to

775
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 1: my own devices, though, my refrigerator would have similar underpinnings

776
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:53,840
Speaker 1: of sillyhillis it would just his refrigerator looks horrible for starters,

777
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 1: Like nobody wants to eat out of that refrigerator.

778
00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 3: It is not a fun one to open up and

779
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 3: have a gaze at. But it so said he doesn't

780
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 3: eat a lot apparently on his list.

781
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, he had some like rice in the cupboard, the

782
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 4: pizzas and the tater tots and whatnot in the fridge.

783
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:14,279
Speaker 3: There was not a lot milk.

784
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:19,920
Speaker 4: I know, a terrible list so far, vegan dot, vegan

785
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:24,440
Speaker 4: mozzarella by the way. Yeah, and you know there's the

786
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:26,640
Speaker 4: common like I said, I the common signs are you

787
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:31,360
Speaker 4: know about twenty save foods and you know the the

788
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:36,520
Speaker 4: side effects of this, This avoidant food disorder can lead

789
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 4: to health problems, malnutrition, low energy, pork growth, and social

790
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:44,839
Speaker 4: difficulties avoiding meals with others. You're not going to sit

791
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 4: down and get to know somebody and eat, you know,

792
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:52,440
Speaker 4: those kinds of things, and emotional stress. Very interesting anyway,

793
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 4: I thought it was be neat to go over that,

794
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:54,839
Speaker 4: by the.

795
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 1: Way, and the visuals to know why is that not

796
00:41:57,160 --> 00:41:59,719
Speaker 1: on this list? And he had the visual snow where

797
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 1: he could and see straight because I think the question

798
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 1: was uh more behavior behavioral?

799
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:10,440
Speaker 4: Thank you? Sorry, I couldn't think of the word. It

800
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 4: was more behavioral, and so he answered it. And it

801
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 4: was in his own handwriting. It wasn't like, you know,

802
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:16,240
Speaker 4: something that was forced.

803
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 1: Did we talk about We talk about handwriting too, Okay, No,

804
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 1: it's the handwriting is so too much. So it's handwriting

805
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:27,600
Speaker 1: and the mom and the cards. I think we and

806
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 1: we have to get through all of those.

807
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:31,280
Speaker 3: How much time do we have? It's we have five minutes.

808
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 3: We don't have enough of time.

809
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 4: But I want to talk about this phone call with

810
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:37,560
Speaker 4: his mom and the text message.

811
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:37,880
Speaker 3: Okay.

812
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 4: So four days after the murder, it's November seventeenth, and

813
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:44,200
Speaker 4: Brian Kolberger and his mother are on the phone.

814
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:46,920
Speaker 1: Okay, and the whole world is looking for a killer.

815
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 1: The whole world is captivated.

816
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:51,960
Speaker 3: And we want answers. I'm one of them at this time.

817
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 6: Hm.

818
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:56,319
Speaker 4: Right. And while they're on the phone, and it's been

819
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 4: reported that they were on the phone for hours, okay.

820
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 4: While there on the phone, his mother sends him an

821
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 4: article about the murders. Okay, so it you know, you

822
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 4: can reasonably assume that they were talking about it, right.

823
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 3: Well, the artist.

824
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 1: Specifically was about Xanner Kernodle. We know had an incredible

825
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 1: stab wound count.

826
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 3: I think close to fifty.

827
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:22,480
Speaker 8: Uh.

828
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:26,719
Speaker 1: And mom's article that she sent her beloved son was

829
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 1: just about how hard Xanna fought, that Xanner Kernodle fought

830
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:34,359
Speaker 1: for her life. So they yet they not only must

831
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 1: have been talking about it. Is it possible that mom

832
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:41,320
Speaker 1: was concerned for his safety and was like, look, whoever's

833
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:43,960
Speaker 1: on the loose, Look how hard she had to fight

834
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 1: him off?

835
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:45,359
Speaker 6: Uh?

836
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:48,399
Speaker 1: Look this article for example of Xanner Kernodle that it's

837
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:51,799
Speaker 1: been you know, noted, son, be careful out there.

838
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:55,840
Speaker 6: I mean, that's possibly very likely or very you know,

839
00:43:57,400 --> 00:43:59,360
Speaker 6: it seems likely a mother would do that.

840
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:04,560
Speaker 1: Or is it possible that mom was like, son, why

841
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 1: do you seem so exhausted and a little beaten up?

842
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 3: You seem like you've been through it?

843
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:12,759
Speaker 1: And her answer his answer is not satisfying, and mom

844
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:16,920
Speaker 1: thinks maybe he's a killer. Right, And then this is

845
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:19,319
Speaker 1: an article of what just happened four days ago in

846
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 1: your area. Look this young girl, beautiful Xana Kernodle, had

847
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:26,120
Speaker 1: to fight for her life. Look at this. Is it

848
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 1: possible your involved son? Or or let's take a different approach.

849
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 4: Is it possible because he's in criminology and this is

850
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:36,920
Speaker 4: a subject that interests him. That mom is just looking

851
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:39,600
Speaker 4: for ways to connect to her son, like and talked

852
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 4: her about you know maybe like hey, are you guys

853
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:45,320
Speaker 4: talking about this? And like did you read this article?

854
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:47,799
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, what's what's people do.

855
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:49,480
Speaker 3: That to me? I'm sure they do that to all

856
00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:49,799
Speaker 3: of us.

857
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 1: Oh right, yeah, that's how people connect with me sometimes

858
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 1: just through an interesting case.

859
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 4: Right. But they also in this the same people that

860
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:01,719
Speaker 4: did this, you know that told about this text and

861
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:05,640
Speaker 4: phone call, also examined his phone and laptop and they're

862
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:09,359
Speaker 4: saying that they found letters that he wrote when he

863
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:13,360
Speaker 4: got when he lost his job, he wrote not one,

864
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 4: but two letters of grievance explaining why he needed the

865
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:20,360
Speaker 4: teaching assistant role and what it meant to him. The

866
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:24,720
Speaker 4: Barnhart told Banfield on his nation and in the second

867
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:28,520
Speaker 4: one was saying why the professors were wrong? So why

868
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:30,360
Speaker 4: they were wrong? He's a good student, he has a

869
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:33,279
Speaker 4: good GPA. He can be both a good student and

870
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:36,880
Speaker 4: a TA and he deserves that role. So he was

871
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:39,759
Speaker 4: fighting back Wow with wsu I.

872
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:42,479
Speaker 1: Am dying to talk about his relationship with mom.

873
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 3: What are we going to do that?

874
00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:47,759
Speaker 1: More of a deep dive into this because we know

875
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 1: that Brian spoke for hours with mom even right before

876
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:52,840
Speaker 1: the sentencing.

877
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:54,360
Speaker 3: Right, you can do that on Sunday.

878
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, there is something really interesting about that dynamic.

879
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 1: He was very dependent on her. She obviously loved him.

880
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 1: We're looking at a photo of a card she sent

881
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:07,160
Speaker 1: him about her son going off to school, moving away,

882
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 1: and how much she loved him. Right, So, like this

883
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 1: was a bond from a guy who has no bonds.

884
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:15,759
Speaker 4: Right, So they were on the phone for hours that day.

885
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:18,160
Speaker 4: This is the seventeenth. This is also the same day

886
00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:19,759
Speaker 4: he wrote the letter. I just wanted to get that

887
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 4: in very quickly. The same day he wrote the letter,

888
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:24,000
Speaker 4: he's on the phone with his mom. They could have

889
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:26,399
Speaker 4: been talking about that. They could have been talking about

890
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 4: the murders anyway.

891
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 5: That's it. It could have been.

892
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:31,319
Speaker 6: Well. Listen, keep it here because at the top of

893
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:35,480
Speaker 6: the hour, we have literally the nation's leading genetic genealogist,

894
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:39,080
Speaker 6: CC Moore. She's joining us to discuss the cutting edge

895
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:43,959
Speaker 6: technology that just solved decades old case that and much more.

896
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:47,160
Speaker 5: Give us your questions. Eighty eight to three to one crime.

897
00:46:57,080 --> 00:46:59,320
Speaker 1: So don't forget if you missed any of the show,

898
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:01,560
Speaker 1: no part problem at all. You could always catch us

899
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:04,239
Speaker 1: right after as a podcast, and we also want to

900
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:07,719
Speaker 1: hear from you at True Crime Tonight show on Instagram

901
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:11,600
Speaker 1: and TikTok or at True Crime Tonight on Facebook, or

902
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:12,120
Speaker 1: you could.

903
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:13,560
Speaker 3: Always leave us a talk back.

904
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:19,320
Speaker 1: So listen, we have a really big, exciting, important, important

905
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:23,319
Speaker 1: guest period the end, who has really shaped so much

906
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 1: in the world of forensics and how cases are being

907
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:29,279
Speaker 1: solved real time. Not only are we super fans of

908
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 1: her work, but she's she's the one. She's the queen

909
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:36,360
Speaker 1: who is the queen of this you know, genealogy, the

910
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:40,400
Speaker 1: chief of genetic genealogy and also has cracked you know,

911
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:44,319
Speaker 1: hundreds and hundreds of violent cases with law enforcement and

912
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:44,840
Speaker 1: her work.

913
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 3: You were so.

914
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:49,080
Speaker 6: Yeah.

915
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:50,880
Speaker 1: And by the way, also not only the shows that

916
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:53,239
Speaker 1: she's been on that you might actually recognize her from

917
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:58,120
Speaker 1: as well, The Genetic Detective and PBS is Finding Your Roots,

918
00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 1: which is so good. If you haven't seen that, you

919
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 1: of course you'll you'll recognize her from it. So see Seymore.

920
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:08,920
Speaker 1: We're so glad that you're here with us. Thank you

921
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:11,319
Speaker 1: for joining us. I wish we could see you right

922
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 1: now because we're all sort of.

923
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:15,880
Speaker 3: Squeezing our cheeks and kind.

924
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 4: Of you know, yes, a little starstruck a little bit.

925
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:24,319
Speaker 8: Yes, too bad, we can't sit around, and.

926
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, let's do it. That's like the best case scenario. Actually,

927
00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:33,000
Speaker 1: So let's pretend we're all at the same kitchen table,

928
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 1: and I know our true crime audience is with us

929
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:38,759
Speaker 1: as well, at the exact same table. And yeah, the

930
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:41,320
Speaker 1: proverbial glass of wine, we're passing it around.

931
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 3: So how did you even get.

932
00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:47,520
Speaker 8: Involved in this? Oh? Wow, Well that's a long story,

933
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:48,960
Speaker 8: but I just want to say thanks for the very

934
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:52,560
Speaker 8: nice introduction. That was very very kind of you. I

935
00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:53,279
Speaker 8: like that the.

936
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:58,400
Speaker 3: Queen the princess as well. The Queen and the princess.

937
00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:02,879
Speaker 8: I will take the temporary crown for now. But how

938
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:04,560
Speaker 8: did I get into it? Well, it's a long story.

939
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:08,359
Speaker 8: I fell in love with genetics multiple times in my life.

940
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:11,680
Speaker 8: It took three times until it stuck. I don't have

941
00:49:11,719 --> 00:49:15,480
Speaker 8: time to go in the whole background, but I separately

942
00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:20,360
Speaker 8: was interested in genetics and genealogy. And after nine to eleven,

943
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 8: all of my gigs canceled. So at that time I

944
00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:28,000
Speaker 8: was in entertainment and I was working consistently, and all

945
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:31,839
Speaker 8: of a sudden, I had nothing. I had three auditions

946
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:35,200
Speaker 8: the day of before everyone really realized the impact on

947
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:39,160
Speaker 8: the West Coast, and then every single job canceled, every audition,

948
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:42,479
Speaker 8: and so I suddenly had some time to breathe, which

949
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:45,399
Speaker 8: I hadn't because you know, when you're doing gig work

950
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:47,840
Speaker 8: like that, you just have to constantly be on the

951
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:49,680
Speaker 8: go because you never know when your next paycheck is

952
00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:51,279
Speaker 8: coming in. You know, you got to make sure you

953
00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:54,439
Speaker 8: have enough to pay the bills. Of course, I've long

954
00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:57,200
Speaker 8: been interested, but just didn't have time to pursue it.

955
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 8: So that's when I really started digging in on like

956
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:03,560
Speaker 8: ancestry dot com. It was kind of early days that

957
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:07,439
Speaker 8: they were online. And then I read about this new

958
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 8: company called family Tree DNA that was offering DNA tests

959
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:14,960
Speaker 8: for genealogical purposes. And that was like two things I

960
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:19,239
Speaker 8: loved and found fascinating that were combining, and so I

961
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:23,400
Speaker 8: started reading up on everything. At the time, I was

962
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:26,839
Speaker 8: pretty tight with my money, so I didn't immediately jump

963
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:29,239
Speaker 8: in and start testing. It was really expensive back then,

964
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:32,040
Speaker 8: but I started reading what was going on and just

965
00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 8: following the progress of that really curious. I didn't fully

966
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:40,719
Speaker 8: jump in with both feet until two thousand and nine.

967
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:42,840
Speaker 8: So what happened is we would use the types of

968
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:47,440
Speaker 8: tests that were called why DNA and mitochondrial DNA early

969
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:50,319
Speaker 8: genetic genealogy. So from two thousand to two thousand and nine,

970
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:52,959
Speaker 8: end of two thousand and nine, we were just using

971
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:55,799
Speaker 8: those tests, and they could only tell us about our

972
00:50:55,840 --> 00:51:00,319
Speaker 8: direct paternal and direct maternal lines. Women couldn't test to

973
00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:03,160
Speaker 8: find themselves to learn about their dad's side. So a

974
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:05,520
Speaker 8: few of us were asking, like, why can't we use

975
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:08,200
Speaker 8: autos onal DNA. So autos on the DNA is the

976
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:11,520
Speaker 8: type of DNA you inherit from all of your ancestral line,

977
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:14,839
Speaker 8: half from mom, half from dad, And scientists told us

978
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:18,840
Speaker 8: it couldn't be done that because the recombination rate was

979
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:21,799
Speaker 8: so high and you lose half of that DNA every

980
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:25,960
Speaker 8: generation that it just was too an unstable basically for

981
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:30,360
Speaker 8: genealogical purposes. And then twenty three and me had started

982
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:36,000
Speaker 8: testing for health purposes. But this really smart amazing scientists

983
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:41,680
Speaker 8: over there, Mike McPherson got the idea to introduce a

984
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:48,080
Speaker 8: genealogical based feature beta testing, something called relative finder back then,

985
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:52,520
Speaker 8: and with that you could compare your DNA to everyone

986
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:54,880
Speaker 8: else already in the database. And this was something that

987
00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:56,960
Speaker 8: was kind of bubbling up with the community too. Some

988
00:51:57,040 --> 00:51:58,759
Speaker 8: of us are early adopters, were saying, well, if we

989
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:01,799
Speaker 8: tested there, could we compare ourselves? Like, would they allow us.

990
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:02,160
Speaker 3: To do that?

991
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:05,480
Speaker 8: So he enabled that, And when I saw that, that's

992
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:08,760
Speaker 8: when I jumped in with both feet, dropped everything else,

993
00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:12,440
Speaker 8: dumped all of our I had a company at that

994
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:14,600
Speaker 8: time with a partner, dumped all the work on the partner.

995
00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:18,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, no more gigs either. The gigs were over right

996
00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:19,440
Speaker 1: now you're all sized out.

997
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:22,640
Speaker 8: By time I had this, I was into my second

998
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:25,560
Speaker 8: career then, so when I got pregnant with my son,

999
00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:29,040
Speaker 8: I went behind the camera and started producing and writing

1000
00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:32,879
Speaker 8: and capping. So I had a production company. And then

1001
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 8: when I saw the promise of autosomal DNA or SNIP testing.

1002
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:42,400
Speaker 8: We use a single nuclear tide polymorphism, which is the

1003
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:44,960
Speaker 8: type of genetic marker, and that hadn't been used for

1004
00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:49,360
Speaker 8: much then, just for health type and research, not for

1005
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 8: law enforcement, not for genealogy. So I saw this tremendous potential.

1006
00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:58,759
Speaker 8: As I said, dropped everything worked one hundred hours a

1007
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:02,680
Speaker 8: week at least test before you. Of my family members

1008
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:05,239
Speaker 8: told some of the scientists at twenty three and me

1009
00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:07,719
Speaker 8: and a different scientist said you should start writing a

1010
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:09,480
Speaker 8: blog about this. I said, well, who's going to care

1011
00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:12,560
Speaker 8: about my research? And he said, oh, believe me, start

1012
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:15,880
Speaker 8: writing and they will come. And that's that's how it started.

1013
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:17,960
Speaker 3: I saw you on sixty minutes.

1014
00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:20,279
Speaker 1: I want to say, I want this had to have

1015
00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:22,919
Speaker 1: been way before COVID, but I have a memory very

1016
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:27,400
Speaker 1: distinctly of watching you on sixty minutes, and I like,

1017
00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:28,440
Speaker 1: my heart stopped.

1018
00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 3: Am I accurate here? And I'm God? Is my witness?

1019
00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:31,760
Speaker 3: Corney Armstrong.

1020
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:33,920
Speaker 1: I went into you at work the next day, I

1021
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:37,439
Speaker 1: think we were. Katie was maybe just like day one,

1022
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:39,560
Speaker 1: and I was like, this is the show. You got

1023
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:42,640
Speaker 1: to see this woman. She is like on fire with

1024
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:45,320
Speaker 1: the science of this, and like even just you saying,

1025
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:48,920
Speaker 1: now your second career, pregnant with your you know your.

1026
00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:51,000
Speaker 3: Son likes my third career.

1027
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:55,000
Speaker 1: Now you're in your third career. How inspiring that is

1028
00:53:55,360 --> 00:53:58,839
Speaker 1: people to hear. I was knocked off my side. I

1029
00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:02,960
Speaker 1: literally I was like blown away when I saw your interview.

1030
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:05,560
Speaker 3: Talking about show.

1031
00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:08,359
Speaker 8: I do find it inspirational because that's one of the

1032
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:10,320
Speaker 8: things that I one of the messages I try to

1033
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:13,480
Speaker 8: get across is I didn't find it till my fourties,

1034
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:15,600
Speaker 8: or I actually didn't create it. I had to create

1035
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:18,120
Speaker 8: this career for myself. There was no resting as a

1036
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:22,400
Speaker 8: professional genetic genealogist. And so I want people to be

1037
00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:26,120
Speaker 8: inspired by that, particularly maybe women who have delegated home

1038
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:28,440
Speaker 8: with their kids, or people who are in dead end

1039
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:30,800
Speaker 8: jobs that they don't find any for their jobs.

1040
00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:32,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's me.

1041
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:34,600
Speaker 8: Yeah, you you know, you can find something you love

1042
00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:38,000
Speaker 8: and is meaningful and actually help people and fulfilling. Wow,

1043
00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:39,760
Speaker 8: it's amazing.

1044
00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:42,440
Speaker 3: And women in STEM I love it. I'm always in SEM.

1045
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:44,359
Speaker 3: It's just such a smart move.

1046
00:54:44,520 --> 00:54:48,120
Speaker 1: And by the way, you are changing lives so in

1047
00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:51,040
Speaker 1: such major ways. So congratulations and yeah.

1048
00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:54,200
Speaker 8: Oh thank you. I'm so fortunate that I was in

1049
00:54:54,239 --> 00:54:56,960
Speaker 8: the right place at the right time and was in

1050
00:54:57,000 --> 00:55:00,359
Speaker 8: a position that I could. I mean I a lot,

1051
00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:04,080
Speaker 8: took a lot of sacrifices to do it, but I

1052
00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:07,040
Speaker 8: did volunteer work for years, you know, before it became

1053
00:55:07,080 --> 00:55:11,520
Speaker 8: a paid gig. So I was lucky. But I was

1054
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:14,279
Speaker 8: also you know, I was there when it was brand new.

1055
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:17,360
Speaker 8: They're just there warn't any experts. I don't have a

1056
00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:19,839
Speaker 8: degree in STEM. I actually went to school for theater,

1057
00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:24,840
Speaker 8: first opera in theater, and I kind of backed into

1058
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:29,440
Speaker 8: STEM in a roundabout way. It's something I strongly considered

1059
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:33,360
Speaker 8: when I was going into college, but ended up going

1060
00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:36,880
Speaker 8: the entertainment route. So I came full circle for me,

1061
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:39,640
Speaker 8: but not till much later in life. So I do

1062
00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:42,120
Speaker 8: want people to be inspired because I had a lot

1063
00:55:42,160 --> 00:55:46,000
Speaker 8: of regrets about my career path and my choices, and

1064
00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:48,040
Speaker 8: now it all makes a lot of sense. Like, I'm

1065
00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:51,160
Speaker 8: really thankful I have my media background because it helped

1066
00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:53,560
Speaker 8: me a lot to be able to educate the public.

1067
00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:58,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, all of your experience has come together easy.

1068
00:55:58,120 --> 00:55:59,560
Speaker 5: It's so inspiring.

1069
00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:03,200
Speaker 6: And by the way, this is the Courtney Armstrong that

1070
00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:08,320
Speaker 6: Stephanie mentioned. And yes, we both became a little obsessed

1071
00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:08,600
Speaker 6: with you.

1072
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:12,880
Speaker 1: I remember like, yeah, I very clear, and I was like,

1073
00:56:13,239 --> 00:56:15,200
Speaker 1: you have no idea what I just saw right now?

1074
00:56:15,239 --> 00:56:16,000
Speaker 3: This is the woman.

1075
00:56:16,120 --> 00:56:20,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, Stephanie, world couldn't and wouldn't stop talking correctly about you.

1076
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:24,760
Speaker 8: You know, looking back, it's really surreal because everything happened

1077
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:28,800
Speaker 8: so fast then that was still in late twenty eighteen.

1078
00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:30,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's exactly.

1079
00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:30,840
Speaker 2: We were just.

1080
00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:33,719
Speaker 8: Solving cases every few days, you know, at least one

1081
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:36,600
Speaker 8: a week, which we've now done on average for seven

1082
00:56:36,680 --> 00:56:39,120
Speaker 8: years straight. But back then it was all new. It

1083
00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:42,560
Speaker 8: was crazy. I had media interviews all the time, and

1084
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:44,279
Speaker 8: now I look back and think, oh my gosh, I

1085
00:56:44,280 --> 00:56:46,560
Speaker 8: did sixty minutes, like I haven't really had time to

1086
00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:48,879
Speaker 8: think about it at the time. But it was such

1087
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:52,000
Speaker 8: an honor. It's such an incredible thing to be able

1088
00:56:52,040 --> 00:56:52,319
Speaker 8: to do.

1089
00:56:52,640 --> 00:56:56,239
Speaker 3: Your son must be very proud of you. How exciting.

1090
00:56:57,200 --> 00:57:00,960
Speaker 6: Listen, if anyone wants to speak with c and who

1091
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:03,080
Speaker 6: wouldn't give us a call. We're at eight to eighty

1092
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:08,280
Speaker 6: three one crime and ask your genetics questions away.

1093
00:57:09,080 --> 00:57:10,800
Speaker 5: Ceci, I had a question.

1094
00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:14,239
Speaker 6: I've heard you say that you're often sort of a

1095
00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:19,520
Speaker 6: last resort for older cases, cold cases. What is that

1096
00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:23,680
Speaker 6: emotional impact like when finally you're able to give family

1097
00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:26,520
Speaker 6: answers good or bad.

1098
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:30,120
Speaker 8: Well, that's really what it's all about. All of my

1099
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:34,920
Speaker 8: work in family history, genetic genealogy. Traditional genealogy has always

1100
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:40,120
Speaker 8: been about families and providing answers, particularly to families, and

1101
00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:44,600
Speaker 8: that's true with my biological reunification work with adoptees. Donor

1102
00:57:44,680 --> 00:57:47,800
Speaker 8: can see people. So this is just following in that

1103
00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:51,480
Speaker 8: same tradition, but it's something much heavier. I mean, those

1104
00:57:51,520 --> 00:57:54,560
Speaker 8: are super important too, but this is something that is

1105
00:57:54,680 --> 00:57:58,160
Speaker 8: just so tragic. Every one of these cases has destroyed lives,

1106
00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:02,360
Speaker 8: taken lives. In some cases, families are never the same.

1107
00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:06,360
Speaker 8: And unfortunately we can't provide closure, you know, we can't

1108
00:58:06,520 --> 00:58:09,360
Speaker 8: undo what happened. We can't turn back the crop. So

1109
00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:12,600
Speaker 8: the one thing we can give them is answers to

1110
00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:16,280
Speaker 8: their questions and then some sort of resolution to that

1111
00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:19,640
Speaker 8: and hopefully justice. And then the cases we're fortunate, we

1112
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:21,920
Speaker 8: get justice, you know, when that person is still alive

1113
00:58:22,080 --> 00:58:28,200
Speaker 8: to face their crimes. And I've watched so many families

1114
00:58:28,200 --> 00:58:31,400
Speaker 8: and so many survivors of violent crime now that I

1115
00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:33,120
Speaker 8: don't want to speak for them, but I will say

1116
00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:35,840
Speaker 8: what I've witnessed is it's like they carry this really

1117
00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:39,360
Speaker 8: heavy burden with them for years or decades, trying to

1118
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:42,680
Speaker 8: get justice, trying to get answers, and then they finally

1119
00:58:42,680 --> 00:58:46,240
Speaker 8: get it thanks to genetic genealogy, and you can almost

1120
00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:50,880
Speaker 8: physically see the burden lift. It's amazing to me. And

1121
00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:53,880
Speaker 8: I don't always get to see the families in person.

1122
00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:57,919
Speaker 8: But when I have you can just sense it. They

1123
00:58:57,920 --> 00:59:01,120
Speaker 8: carry such a heavy weight, a heavy burden trying to

1124
00:59:01,120 --> 00:59:04,480
Speaker 8: get justice for their loved ones and for survivors of

1125
00:59:04,560 --> 00:59:07,200
Speaker 8: sexual assault. You know, I never thought about it before,

1126
00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:09,680
Speaker 8: what it would be like to not know who your

1127
00:59:09,720 --> 00:59:13,960
Speaker 8: attacker was, To go through life not knowing if that

1128
00:59:14,040 --> 00:59:17,160
Speaker 8: person is around you, if they are someone you see

1129
00:59:17,160 --> 00:59:20,000
Speaker 8: in the grocery store or someone you meet online to day.

1130
00:59:20,440 --> 00:59:23,920
Speaker 8: That must be horrific. And so I've seen a lot

1131
00:59:23,960 --> 00:59:27,120
Speaker 8: of lives kind of stop, just g to a stop

1132
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:31,160
Speaker 8: because of that and that type of tragedy. And so

1133
00:59:31,280 --> 00:59:35,320
Speaker 8: even though there's survivors, their lives are often terribly you know,

1134
00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:38,720
Speaker 8: impacted in a negative sense. And then I've seen those

1135
00:59:38,760 --> 00:59:42,160
Speaker 8: lives restart again, even for some really old times. It

1136
00:59:42,280 --> 00:59:45,320
Speaker 8: was like almost like they got a reset. It's amazing.

1137
00:59:46,800 --> 00:59:47,920
Speaker 3: Wow, that really is.

1138
00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:52,040
Speaker 6: And the sexual assault example you gave it literally all

1139
00:59:52,120 --> 00:59:56,560
Speaker 6: all three of us had looks of awakening of my gosh.

1140
00:59:56,640 --> 00:59:58,480
Speaker 5: I mean that's a reality for many people.

1141
00:59:59,360 --> 01:00:02,200
Speaker 8: Yeah, you dark, or they were wearing a mask or both.

1142
01:00:02,280 --> 01:00:04,240
Speaker 8: I mean a lot of these people have no idea

1143
01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:09,400
Speaker 8: what their attacker looks like. But you mentioned you were.

1144
01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:11,360
Speaker 4: You mentioned you were in entertainment and you had gigs

1145
01:00:11,400 --> 01:00:14,240
Speaker 4: and you were you went behind the camera and you

1146
01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:17,000
Speaker 4: were a producer and whatnot. And then now you're in

1147
01:00:17,080 --> 01:00:20,320
Speaker 4: TV too, write The Genetic Detective and Finding your Roots

1148
01:00:20,600 --> 01:00:22,960
Speaker 4: and you're such a good communicator. Do you think that

1149
01:00:23,040 --> 01:00:26,520
Speaker 4: this has all helped people understand, like the really complex

1150
01:00:26,920 --> 01:00:28,080
Speaker 4: issues around DNA?

1151
01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:29,360
Speaker 5: I do you know?

1152
01:00:29,400 --> 01:00:34,080
Speaker 8: That's my hope and my blog Actually the tagline was

1153
01:00:34,440 --> 01:00:38,520
Speaker 8: written by a non scientist for non scientist. My goal

1154
01:00:38,680 --> 01:00:42,000
Speaker 8: was always to try to educate the public in the

1155
01:00:42,080 --> 01:00:44,840
Speaker 8: type of language and explanations that make sense and not

1156
01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:47,560
Speaker 8: tack over people's heads. And I think because I don't

1157
01:00:47,560 --> 01:00:52,000
Speaker 8: come from stem academia and that world, I'm more able

1158
01:00:52,040 --> 01:00:54,240
Speaker 8: to do that. And then because of my background in

1159
01:00:54,320 --> 01:00:58,640
Speaker 8: media that has helped me so much, and so I finally,

1160
01:00:58,680 --> 01:01:01,640
Speaker 8: for the first time, don't regret all of those earlier

1161
01:01:01,760 --> 01:01:06,000
Speaker 8: choices and you know, the directions that my careers, my

1162
01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:09,040
Speaker 8: multiple careers went, and then being able to write, you know,

1163
01:01:09,080 --> 01:01:12,640
Speaker 8: working on finding your roots. My biggest goal on Doctor

1164
01:01:12,680 --> 01:01:14,840
Speaker 8: Who's invited me to work on the show was to

1165
01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:18,480
Speaker 8: try to get more DNA stories into people's living rooms.

1166
01:01:18,840 --> 01:01:21,680
Speaker 8: And so the fact I learned how to write and

1167
01:01:21,960 --> 01:01:25,520
Speaker 8: you know, produced and communicate to an audience through both

1168
01:01:25,960 --> 01:01:30,080
Speaker 8: my own appearances and writing the DNA parts of the

1169
01:01:30,080 --> 01:01:34,000
Speaker 8: script is I think it's been really illustrative, and it's

1170
01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:38,920
Speaker 8: allowed the public to see through these human interest stories

1171
01:01:39,600 --> 01:01:43,360
Speaker 8: just how impactful genetic genealogy and DNA testing can be.

1172
01:01:43,840 --> 01:01:46,080
Speaker 8: And so that has always been one of my biggest goals.

1173
01:01:46,120 --> 01:01:48,040
Speaker 8: I mean early on, I saw the potential, but I

1174
01:01:48,120 --> 01:01:50,160
Speaker 8: knew we'd never get there if we didn't get millions

1175
01:01:50,200 --> 01:01:53,160
Speaker 8: of people to take these tests. So I started pitching

1176
01:01:53,640 --> 01:01:56,280
Speaker 8: human interest stories that I was finding through my work

1177
01:01:56,480 --> 01:01:59,320
Speaker 8: to all these different journalists and trying to put it

1178
01:01:59,400 --> 01:02:03,680
Speaker 8: in chronologies and structures that they would you understand and

1179
01:02:03,920 --> 01:02:06,040
Speaker 8: like and say, hey, that's a good twist, or that

1180
01:02:06,280 --> 01:02:08,560
Speaker 8: might appeal to my audience, it's my editors.

1181
01:02:08,920 --> 01:02:11,720
Speaker 5: Well, CEC. You say it's a goal, but I say

1182
01:02:11,760 --> 01:02:12,440
Speaker 5: it is something.

1183
01:02:12,480 --> 01:02:15,440
Speaker 6: It is an accomplishment at this point because you have

1184
01:02:15,720 --> 01:02:19,520
Speaker 6: done that in droves. Listen, everyone, stay here. We are

1185
01:02:19,600 --> 01:02:22,960
Speaker 6: lucky enough to be continuing our conversation with C Seymour,

1186
01:02:23,440 --> 01:02:26,200
Speaker 6: the nation's leading genetic genealogist.

1187
01:02:26,840 --> 01:02:27,520
Speaker 5: Give us a call.

1188
01:02:27,680 --> 01:02:36,360
Speaker 6: Eighty eighty three to one crime True Crime tonight.

1189
01:02:40,760 --> 01:02:43,040
Speaker 1: We're getting a little rowdy in here. I wish you

1190
01:02:43,040 --> 01:02:46,520
Speaker 1: guys could see the robot that body is doing right now,

1191
01:02:46,640 --> 01:02:49,600
Speaker 1: nice dance moves. The whole crew is given a little

1192
01:02:49,640 --> 01:02:52,240
Speaker 1: wiggle in between the commercial break because we have an

1193
01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:53,600
Speaker 1: astounding guest.

1194
01:02:53,760 --> 01:02:54,920
Speaker 3: By the way, if you miss any of the.

1195
01:02:54,880 --> 01:02:56,720
Speaker 1: Show, no worries, you can always catch it as a

1196
01:02:56,760 --> 01:02:59,400
Speaker 1: podcast right after. And if you want to jump in

1197
01:02:59,400 --> 01:03:02,920
Speaker 1: and join the com conversation with the genetic detective. Hello,

1198
01:03:03,040 --> 01:03:06,960
Speaker 1: Cecy Morris here, the original the Queen of all.

1199
01:03:07,440 --> 01:03:09,960
Speaker 3: DNA in my humble opinions.

1200
01:03:09,920 --> 01:03:13,320
Speaker 1: And also the PBS show The Finding Your Roots is

1201
01:03:13,520 --> 01:03:20,160
Speaker 1: so satisfying and heartwarming and it's smart, and we encourage

1202
01:03:20,200 --> 01:03:23,120
Speaker 1: everybody to please listen. And also we were hearing this

1203
01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:25,760
Speaker 1: in the earlier segment, but just to kind of underscore

1204
01:03:25,760 --> 01:03:29,320
Speaker 1: it yet again, it is so inspiring to be hearing

1205
01:03:29,360 --> 01:03:32,360
Speaker 1: from you, just as a woman, or as a parent,

1206
01:03:32,840 --> 01:03:36,440
Speaker 1: or as anyone, and there's so many of us that

1207
01:03:36,480 --> 01:03:38,680
Speaker 1: can relate. To be in a section of your life

1208
01:03:38,720 --> 01:03:41,480
Speaker 1: where it's just not feeling right work wise, and that

1209
01:03:41,560 --> 01:03:43,880
Speaker 1: you have to kind of reinvent yourself, and the fact

1210
01:03:43,920 --> 01:03:49,400
Speaker 1: that you've done that three times, you are the one

1211
01:03:50,240 --> 01:03:53,480
Speaker 1: is really just an exciting moment. So enough about that.

1212
01:03:53,640 --> 01:03:54,800
Speaker 1: Welcome back everybody.

1213
01:03:54,960 --> 01:03:57,400
Speaker 3: Courtney. Do you want to set us up for the

1214
01:03:57,520 --> 01:03:59,520
Speaker 3: case that CESAR is going to discuss.

1215
01:04:00,120 --> 01:04:03,840
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, so we want every detail from you. But

1216
01:04:03,920 --> 01:04:06,480
Speaker 6: to catch audience members up, we are going to be

1217
01:04:06,600 --> 01:04:11,600
Speaker 6: talking about an identical twin who has been convicted of

1218
01:04:11,640 --> 01:04:15,800
Speaker 6: a nineteen eighty seven sexual assault cold case. And this

1219
01:04:15,880 --> 01:04:21,680
Speaker 6: happened using a breakthrough DNA sequencing technique. It was Russell Marubio.

1220
01:04:21,920 --> 01:04:24,520
Speaker 6: I hope I'm saying their name right. They were found

1221
01:04:24,560 --> 01:04:28,600
Speaker 6: guilty of this attack thirty seven years ago after forensic

1222
01:04:28,640 --> 01:04:33,800
Speaker 6: experts identified rare genetic mutations that distinguished the DNA from

1223
01:04:33,880 --> 01:04:34,960
Speaker 6: his identical twin.

1224
01:04:35,240 --> 01:04:38,160
Speaker 3: How is that even possible? It's cralsy.

1225
01:04:38,400 --> 01:04:43,120
Speaker 6: I'll say one thingaking it was using ultra deep genome.

1226
01:04:43,880 --> 01:04:48,840
Speaker 1: Ierentiate, but I met Cez can actually say it and

1227
01:04:48,920 --> 01:04:49,720
Speaker 1: explain it.

1228
01:04:50,040 --> 01:04:53,800
Speaker 4: Because I always thought identical twins had the same DNA, right, Like,

1229
01:04:54,200 --> 01:04:56,480
Speaker 4: how can you and stop gets in.

1230
01:04:56,480 --> 01:05:00,560
Speaker 8: The past, you know, that's been the traditional understand and

1231
01:05:00,640 --> 01:05:04,880
Speaker 8: definition of identical twins, and when you are looking at

1232
01:05:05,040 --> 01:05:09,160
Speaker 8: standard genetic tests, they are identical. And that's a real problem.

1233
01:05:09,200 --> 01:05:13,160
Speaker 8: For law enforcement because they use those str profiles, the

1234
01:05:13,240 --> 01:05:16,760
Speaker 8: short tandem repeats. That's the type of DNA profile that

1235
01:05:16,800 --> 01:05:19,200
Speaker 8: they've used for decades to charge people with the crime,

1236
01:05:19,280 --> 01:05:21,480
Speaker 8: arrest them, convict them in a court of law. When

1237
01:05:21,520 --> 01:05:23,919
Speaker 8: you hear those terms where they say there's a one

1238
01:05:23,960 --> 01:05:27,120
Speaker 8: in five hundred trillion chance it's anyone else on earth,

1239
01:05:27,200 --> 01:05:30,600
Speaker 8: but this person, well, that's never worked for identical twins,

1240
01:05:30,640 --> 01:05:33,680
Speaker 8: so it's been easy for the guilty one to point

1241
01:05:33,720 --> 01:05:36,160
Speaker 8: at the innocent one and say, no, it's him, Oh,

1242
01:05:36,160 --> 01:05:38,440
Speaker 8: it's him. So you haven't been able to use genetic

1243
01:05:38,480 --> 01:05:41,360
Speaker 8: evidence for that. But there's been a lot of research

1244
01:05:41,400 --> 01:05:46,800
Speaker 8: in the past theorizing that you could potentially find these

1245
01:05:47,040 --> 01:05:52,080
Speaker 8: unique mutations or somatic mutations that happen after conception, and

1246
01:05:52,160 --> 01:05:58,120
Speaker 8: so they vary even with identical twins. And because technology

1247
01:05:58,160 --> 01:06:01,320
Speaker 8: has move forward so fast and it's so much cheaper

1248
01:06:01,360 --> 01:06:03,560
Speaker 8: now to do a whole genome sequence or a full

1249
01:06:03,600 --> 01:06:07,680
Speaker 8: genome sequence, you can now do that. And we actually

1250
01:06:07,720 --> 01:06:10,840
Speaker 8: weren't the first. There was one in the Netherlands, I

1251
01:06:10,880 --> 01:06:13,200
Speaker 8: believe in twenty twenty two where they did this exact

1252
01:06:13,240 --> 01:06:15,240
Speaker 8: same thing. So we're the first in the US. Can

1253
01:06:15,280 --> 01:06:18,880
Speaker 8: un and this just happened. He was just convicted. I

1254
01:06:18,880 --> 01:06:22,640
Speaker 8: think it was August twenty first, and it was based

1255
01:06:22,720 --> 01:06:28,000
Speaker 8: on our scientist, doctor Janet Katie's research at Parabon. So

1256
01:06:28,080 --> 01:06:30,800
Speaker 8: we had done the genetic genealogy on the case, just

1257
01:06:30,840 --> 01:06:33,640
Speaker 8: like we would any case. In fact, it was one

1258
01:06:33,640 --> 01:06:36,640
Speaker 8: of my team members, Stephanie Wyatt, who did that work

1259
01:06:36,680 --> 01:06:40,000
Speaker 8: and it led right to these two brothers. But they

1260
01:06:40,000 --> 01:06:43,320
Speaker 8: were identical twins, so that was the problem. Now one

1261
01:06:43,320 --> 01:06:48,919
Speaker 8: of them certainly seemed to fit the surviving victims description better,

1262
01:06:49,080 --> 01:06:53,280
Speaker 8: but still it was just circumstantial, right, and it's like

1263
01:06:54,440 --> 01:06:56,240
Speaker 8: hair do and things. He could have changed all that.

1264
01:06:56,760 --> 01:06:58,680
Speaker 8: She could have been one twin pretending to be his

1265
01:06:58,760 --> 01:07:02,480
Speaker 8: other twins, and so we couldn't say for sure. It

1266
01:07:02,520 --> 01:07:05,320
Speaker 8: was really just based on circumstantial They both were in

1267
01:07:05,360 --> 01:07:08,160
Speaker 8: the same area at the same time, you know, the crime,

1268
01:07:08,920 --> 01:07:11,280
Speaker 8: and so they either could have done it, and so

1269
01:07:11,960 --> 01:07:18,400
Speaker 8: our brilliant scientists, doctor Janet Katie did that analysis. We

1270
01:07:18,640 --> 01:07:24,760
Speaker 8: had the DNA processes of full genome sequence at Inner

1271
01:07:24,800 --> 01:07:28,600
Speaker 8: Mountain Forensics in Utah, so thank you to them. And

1272
01:07:29,200 --> 01:07:31,320
Speaker 8: so they took the crime scene DNA even though it

1273
01:07:31,360 --> 01:07:33,960
Speaker 8: was old, they were able to pull that full genome.

1274
01:07:34,000 --> 01:07:35,920
Speaker 8: So when you pull the full genome, you're not just

1275
01:07:35,960 --> 01:07:39,240
Speaker 8: looking at a handful of markers or even the seven

1276
01:07:39,280 --> 01:07:42,280
Speaker 8: hundred and fifty thousand we'll usually look out for genetic genealogy.

1277
01:07:42,720 --> 01:07:45,960
Speaker 8: Now you're looking at all of the genetic markers across

1278
01:07:46,000 --> 01:07:49,000
Speaker 8: the genome billions, and that's why you can then find

1279
01:07:49,040 --> 01:07:53,720
Speaker 8: those differences, because we're all affected by our environment. Right,

1280
01:07:53,840 --> 01:07:56,400
Speaker 8: So even though they grew they were in the same

1281
01:07:56,400 --> 01:07:58,960
Speaker 8: womb and they grew up together, there's still different choices

1282
01:07:59,000 --> 01:08:00,720
Speaker 8: that people make in life. So like if you smoke

1283
01:08:00,760 --> 01:08:05,320
Speaker 8: cigarettes might cause a somatic mutation that only you have

1284
01:08:05,440 --> 01:08:08,200
Speaker 8: and not your twin, and those don't get passed down,

1285
01:08:08,320 --> 01:08:10,640
Speaker 8: so they're not going to be inheritable. This isn't the

1286
01:08:10,680 --> 01:08:13,680
Speaker 8: type of genetics where you say, oh, you know it's

1287
01:08:13,720 --> 01:08:16,040
Speaker 8: inherited in this family, it runs in this family, or

1288
01:08:16,040 --> 01:08:18,080
Speaker 8: I got that from mom or dad. You don't get

1289
01:08:18,080 --> 01:08:22,080
Speaker 8: this because it's not in those reproductive cells. It's only

1290
01:08:22,120 --> 01:08:27,960
Speaker 8: in the non reproductive cell. But everybody have different ones

1291
01:08:28,080 --> 01:08:29,479
Speaker 8: because they live different lives.

1292
01:08:29,920 --> 01:08:31,840
Speaker 4: You're blowing my mind a little bit. Are you saying

1293
01:08:32,120 --> 01:08:36,599
Speaker 4: that environmental factors can like modify your DNA a little

1294
01:08:36,600 --> 01:08:38,880
Speaker 4: bit like a yes, a normal.

1295
01:08:38,960 --> 01:08:41,000
Speaker 3: Really because then there's markers.

1296
01:08:41,040 --> 01:08:43,760
Speaker 1: So if you're if you're looking at in correct me

1297
01:08:43,760 --> 01:08:46,000
Speaker 1: if I'm wrong, CC I don't mean to overstate here,

1298
01:08:46,040 --> 01:08:49,280
Speaker 1: but getting this correctly. So if you know, if there

1299
01:08:49,360 --> 01:08:52,280
Speaker 1: was a set of twins, body and Courtney, they're both

1300
01:08:52,280 --> 01:08:56,439
Speaker 1: adorable and perfect, and one of them just makes different choices.

1301
01:08:56,520 --> 01:08:58,519
Speaker 1: One's a little boozi or one's a little bit of

1302
01:08:58,560 --> 01:09:02,360
Speaker 1: a smoker, et cetera. Is putting some air quotes dense

1303
01:09:02,600 --> 01:09:07,560
Speaker 1: or tells into this what would normally be identical DNA.

1304
01:09:09,360 --> 01:09:10,080
Speaker 3: Become a mutant.

1305
01:09:11,040 --> 01:09:13,720
Speaker 8: That's right. And so even like your job, like if

1306
01:09:13,760 --> 01:09:16,840
Speaker 8: you're exposed to radiation or you're a son worshiper and

1307
01:09:16,880 --> 01:09:20,479
Speaker 8: you go out in the funnel lot, that damage yourself,

1308
01:09:20,600 --> 01:09:23,240
Speaker 8: it damages your DNA. The other thing that can happen

1309
01:09:23,360 --> 01:09:26,400
Speaker 8: is when your DNA replicates or repairs itself, it can

1310
01:09:26,439 --> 01:09:28,720
Speaker 8: make mistakes. And so that mistake is only going to

1311
01:09:28,760 --> 01:09:30,800
Speaker 8: happen in you, right, not your twin, even though your

1312
01:09:30,880 --> 01:09:33,760
Speaker 8: DNA is the same to start, so there are these

1313
01:09:33,800 --> 01:09:38,000
Speaker 8: really minute differences. Now, these Soppi mutations are usually not

1314
01:09:38,080 --> 01:09:40,320
Speaker 8: a good thing. You know, that's what causes cancer in

1315
01:09:40,439 --> 01:09:44,240
Speaker 8: many cases when they say it's not genetic, that's because

1316
01:09:44,240 --> 01:09:46,719
Speaker 8: it was some sort of environmental or just a bad

1317
01:09:47,080 --> 01:09:51,240
Speaker 8: luck mutation. You know, things happen spontaneously too. You just

1318
01:09:51,840 --> 01:09:53,880
Speaker 8: you get that copy error or your DNA is trying

1319
01:09:53,880 --> 01:09:57,200
Speaker 8: to repair itself and it messes up, and so that

1320
01:09:57,240 --> 01:09:59,559
Speaker 8: can cause one twin to get cancer where another one

1321
01:09:59,640 --> 01:10:03,320
Speaker 8: would not. And so you can also have a beneficial one,

1322
01:10:03,360 --> 01:10:07,599
Speaker 8: though it's more rare, Like some people have a mutation

1323
01:10:07,720 --> 01:10:12,439
Speaker 8: that makes them not susceptible to HIV, and so then

1324
01:10:12,479 --> 01:10:16,720
Speaker 8: that would be a somatic mutation that's actually beneficial to us.

1325
01:10:16,760 --> 01:10:18,519
Speaker 8: But most of the time they're not based on what

1326
01:10:18,560 --> 01:10:20,760
Speaker 8: I read. I'm not a scientist, you know, like that

1327
01:10:20,960 --> 01:10:24,160
Speaker 8: at all, So this is something I've learned as well,

1328
01:10:24,280 --> 01:10:24,880
Speaker 8: because you're in.

1329
01:10:24,840 --> 01:10:28,200
Speaker 3: The common sense scientist you know that also.

1330
01:10:28,000 --> 01:10:31,280
Speaker 1: Really does track right, like you're actually understanding this.

1331
01:10:31,439 --> 01:10:33,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly exactly.

1332
01:10:33,439 --> 01:10:37,120
Speaker 4: You make it sounds so palatable. Thank you for just

1333
01:10:37,280 --> 01:10:40,400
Speaker 4: communicating so well. You have a really good way of

1334
01:10:40,400 --> 01:10:42,719
Speaker 4: explaining this. So yeah, okay, continue, I'm fascinated.

1335
01:10:42,800 --> 01:10:44,960
Speaker 8: Well, again, I'm a non scientist, so I can say it,

1336
01:10:45,040 --> 01:10:48,000
Speaker 8: you know, plainly, But I think it's just so fascinating

1337
01:10:48,040 --> 01:10:48,679
Speaker 8: when you read.

1338
01:10:48,560 --> 01:10:49,080
Speaker 5: This like this.

1339
01:10:49,320 --> 01:10:51,640
Speaker 8: It's just because you would have to have enough of

1340
01:10:51,680 --> 01:10:55,200
Speaker 8: those to have a high confidence level, right, because twins

1341
01:10:55,280 --> 01:10:58,280
Speaker 8: might happen to get some of the same somatic mutations

1342
01:10:58,280 --> 01:11:01,960
Speaker 8: if they grow up together, they're in utero together, if

1343
01:11:01,960 --> 01:11:05,160
Speaker 8: they're doing a lot of the same things. So you know,

1344
01:11:05,200 --> 01:11:06,840
Speaker 8: I didn't do the analysis, so I don't know all

1345
01:11:06,880 --> 01:11:09,160
Speaker 8: the details of it. You'd have to talk to doctor Katie.

1346
01:11:09,200 --> 01:11:11,479
Speaker 8: But in order to be able to testify in court

1347
01:11:11,560 --> 01:11:13,519
Speaker 8: that you're really sure that you have a high level

1348
01:11:13,560 --> 01:11:16,240
Speaker 8: of confidence it's one versus the other, there'd have to

1349
01:11:16,240 --> 01:11:18,960
Speaker 8: be you know, a significant number of differences, and I

1350
01:11:18,960 --> 01:11:23,280
Speaker 8: mean scientifically significant because there also can rarely be back mutation,

1351
01:11:24,000 --> 01:11:26,880
Speaker 8: where somebody can have a somatic mutation and then it

1352
01:11:26,920 --> 01:11:30,280
Speaker 8: can reverse itself. It's rare, but it's not on Oh.

1353
01:11:30,080 --> 01:11:32,200
Speaker 3: My goodness, that's interesting too.

1354
01:11:32,640 --> 01:11:37,000
Speaker 8: Wow that mutation at sixteen, but not have it at

1355
01:11:37,080 --> 01:11:39,960
Speaker 8: thirty five. And again, as I said, it's rare, but

1356
01:11:40,000 --> 01:11:44,679
Speaker 8: back mutations are so cool. It's when your cells mutat

1357
01:11:44,760 --> 01:11:47,360
Speaker 8: or your DNA mutates, and then it mutates again and

1358
01:11:47,400 --> 01:11:50,479
Speaker 8: it happens to reverse itself. I remember reading about that,

1359
01:11:50,640 --> 01:11:52,360
Speaker 8: Like you know a decade and a half ago, just

1360
01:11:52,360 --> 01:11:57,120
Speaker 8: thinking that is so interesting. I love genetics, It's fascinating.

1361
01:11:57,520 --> 01:11:58,599
Speaker 3: So this is true crime tonight.

1362
01:11:58,640 --> 01:12:00,560
Speaker 4: I'mbody moving and I'm here with Stephanie by Decker and

1363
01:12:00,600 --> 01:12:03,920
Speaker 4: Courtney Armstrong and we are super blessed to be joined

1364
01:12:03,920 --> 01:12:08,200
Speaker 4: by Cec Moore. She is a famed genetic genealogist. We

1365
01:12:08,240 --> 01:12:13,000
Speaker 4: are talking about this groundbreaking like landmark case of two twins,

1366
01:12:13,600 --> 01:12:17,719
Speaker 4: well one twin who basically raped a woman, left semen

1367
01:12:17,760 --> 01:12:19,920
Speaker 4: behind and they were able to tell which twin it was.

1368
01:12:20,000 --> 01:12:23,000
Speaker 4: This is the first time in the United States that

1369
01:12:23,080 --> 01:12:25,519
Speaker 4: this has happened. So we are talking about this case

1370
01:12:25,520 --> 01:12:28,080
Speaker 4: and I am literally transfixed. If you want to weigh in,

1371
01:12:28,160 --> 01:12:30,920
Speaker 4: give us a call eighty eight thirty one Crime CC.

1372
01:12:31,120 --> 01:12:32,839
Speaker 4: Is this going to help other cases?

1373
01:12:34,160 --> 01:12:36,680
Speaker 8: It certainly should. You know, We've seen a number of

1374
01:12:36,720 --> 01:12:40,360
Speaker 8: cases over the years where the twins, you know, point

1375
01:12:40,560 --> 01:12:43,760
Speaker 8: at each other and they're at a standstill, and so

1376
01:12:43,960 --> 01:12:47,600
Speaker 8: if you can't get a confession, or there was a

1377
01:12:47,600 --> 01:12:50,240
Speaker 8: case here where I live in Orange County where they

1378
01:12:50,479 --> 01:12:53,360
Speaker 8: listened in when the twins were talking and they were

1379
01:12:53,400 --> 01:12:56,400
Speaker 8: able to convict one of them based on that. But

1380
01:12:56,520 --> 01:12:59,400
Speaker 8: if you don't have that. They're really stealthy and they're

1381
01:12:59,439 --> 01:13:02,160
Speaker 8: really careful and neither back down. Then you would be

1382
01:13:02,200 --> 01:13:06,439
Speaker 8: sucks because you would always have that measure of doubt. Right,

1383
01:13:06,479 --> 01:13:10,240
Speaker 8: You could never convict somebody without reasonable doubt. And so

1384
01:13:10,400 --> 01:13:14,120
Speaker 8: any of those cases should start coming forward and ask

1385
01:13:14,200 --> 01:13:16,439
Speaker 8: for this type of analysis and we know now it

1386
01:13:16,439 --> 01:13:20,200
Speaker 8: can be done and importantly the court accepted it, so

1387
01:13:20,280 --> 01:13:20,959
Speaker 8: that sets.

1388
01:13:21,160 --> 01:13:21,920
Speaker 3: That's the big deal.

1389
01:13:22,880 --> 01:13:25,160
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, and that really a big.

1390
01:13:25,040 --> 01:13:28,760
Speaker 4: Deal with IDG in general, like investigative genetic genealogy. Right,

1391
01:13:28,840 --> 01:13:32,120
Speaker 4: that's kind of been like a thing you know and

1392
01:13:32,640 --> 01:13:35,920
Speaker 4: news lately, right because of privacy concerns and things like that,

1393
01:13:35,960 --> 01:13:39,080
Speaker 4: but more states are kind of like allowing it.

1394
01:13:39,200 --> 01:13:39,439
Speaker 3: Right.

1395
01:13:40,280 --> 01:13:42,960
Speaker 8: Well, it's kind of complicated and it takes more time

1396
01:13:43,040 --> 01:13:46,160
Speaker 8: than we have to discuss. But the boss line is

1397
01:13:46,520 --> 01:13:49,840
Speaker 8: it always goes back to that str profile, which is

1398
01:13:49,840 --> 01:13:53,040
Speaker 8: the traditional profile that is used in a court of law.

1399
01:13:53,560 --> 01:13:57,479
Speaker 8: And so the genetic genealogy, which is SNIP based, which

1400
01:13:57,520 --> 01:14:02,040
Speaker 8: is single nucleo hide polymph polymorphe is really just used

1401
01:14:02,080 --> 01:14:05,000
Speaker 8: as a tip. It's a lead generator. It's like if

1402
01:14:05,000 --> 01:14:07,080
Speaker 8: I call the name into crime stoppers, they'd have to

1403
01:14:07,080 --> 01:14:10,519
Speaker 8: do their full investigation and due diligence. Same thing when

1404
01:14:10,520 --> 01:14:12,639
Speaker 8: I give them a not name and I say, genetic

1405
01:14:12,680 --> 01:14:15,040
Speaker 8: genealogy is pointing at this guy. They can't just go

1406
01:14:15,080 --> 01:14:18,600
Speaker 8: out and arrest him. They have to get that STR profile,

1407
01:14:18,760 --> 01:14:23,120
Speaker 8: their courtedmissible DNA match before they can do that. And

1408
01:14:23,160 --> 01:14:26,320
Speaker 8: so they'll usually go and collect surreptitious DNA, meaning they'll

1409
01:14:26,720 --> 01:14:29,479
Speaker 8: get his trash, or they'll fall into a restaurant, they'll

1410
01:14:29,520 --> 01:14:32,320
Speaker 8: wait till he drops his cigarette, that type of thing,

1411
01:14:32,479 --> 01:14:35,080
Speaker 8: and then that is what they use for the basis

1412
01:14:35,080 --> 01:14:41,720
Speaker 8: of the arrest. Now, the Humorman case is notable in

1413
01:14:41,760 --> 01:14:46,320
Speaker 8: that they used SNIP testing, So that's what the difference is.

1414
01:14:46,360 --> 01:14:49,160
Speaker 8: The SNIP genetic markers is a totally different type of

1415
01:14:49,240 --> 01:14:54,120
Speaker 8: DNA than the STRs, which is that traditional accepted court

1416
01:14:54,160 --> 01:14:57,800
Speaker 8: amissible profile. So with genetic genealogy, we've been arguing all

1417
01:14:57,840 --> 01:15:00,640
Speaker 8: along it shouldn't be courted missible. That need to be

1418
01:15:00,640 --> 01:15:03,439
Speaker 8: because they can always go back to that STR profile

1419
01:15:03,479 --> 01:15:06,919
Speaker 8: that they created years or decades ago on these cold cases.

1420
01:15:07,560 --> 01:15:10,560
Speaker 8: But if you have a rootless hair meaning if you

1421
01:15:10,640 --> 01:15:14,400
Speaker 8: have a piece of hair, that's right, and so with

1422
01:15:14,520 --> 01:15:18,280
Speaker 8: those you cannot pull STRs. You can only pull snips.

1423
01:15:18,800 --> 01:15:20,919
Speaker 8: And the only and the reason you can pull snips

1424
01:15:21,320 --> 01:15:24,479
Speaker 8: is because doctor ed green from you see, Santa Cruz

1425
01:15:24,520 --> 01:15:26,800
Speaker 8: didn't listen to all the scientists who said it could

1426
01:15:26,800 --> 01:15:29,760
Speaker 8: never be done, and he did it. So we have

1427
01:15:29,880 --> 01:15:33,240
Speaker 8: solved multiple cases. I myself have been involved in I

1428
01:15:33,280 --> 01:15:37,320
Speaker 8: think five cases where all they had was rootless hair

1429
01:15:37,720 --> 01:15:41,040
Speaker 8: and they didn't have this str profile to fall back on.

1430
01:15:41,720 --> 01:15:45,599
Speaker 8: So the Hureman case is important, but the judge based

1431
01:15:45,640 --> 01:15:49,000
Speaker 8: his decision partially on some of my cases. We already

1432
01:15:49,040 --> 01:15:52,519
Speaker 8: had one in California accepted, and the SBI had one

1433
01:15:52,600 --> 01:15:55,400
Speaker 8: accepted in Idaho. They just want to high profile, so

1434
01:15:55,400 --> 01:15:58,960
Speaker 8: people didn't care about it. So they're actually at least

1435
01:15:58,960 --> 01:16:01,920
Speaker 8: the third, no less than the third case that I

1436
01:16:01,960 --> 01:16:03,880
Speaker 8: accepted it the first one in New York, but not

1437
01:16:03,960 --> 01:16:06,879
Speaker 8: the first in the United States. And so we're starting

1438
01:16:06,920 --> 01:16:10,480
Speaker 8: to move toward snip testing, which is much more precise

1439
01:16:10,680 --> 01:16:13,840
Speaker 8: and confident being accepted in a court of law. So

1440
01:16:13,920 --> 01:16:17,679
Speaker 8: that was a hurdle that needed to happen. We talked

1441
01:16:17,720 --> 01:16:22,719
Speaker 8: about this, that's old technology. Yeah, we're moving forward finally, right, So.

1442
01:16:22,600 --> 01:16:25,920
Speaker 4: They my understanding in lisk is and we talked about

1443
01:16:25,920 --> 01:16:27,800
Speaker 4: this a little bit last night, California and Idaho and

1444
01:16:27,840 --> 01:16:29,200
Speaker 4: now New York Is.

1445
01:16:29,280 --> 01:16:32,720
Speaker 3: They basically had to like build the genome. Is that right?

1446
01:16:32,920 --> 01:16:34,320
Speaker 4: Is that the right way to say it? They had

1447
01:16:34,360 --> 01:16:36,400
Speaker 4: to like exclaberate what it would be.

1448
01:16:37,360 --> 01:16:41,040
Speaker 8: It's much more segmented, fragmented, i should say, and so

1449
01:16:41,120 --> 01:16:45,000
Speaker 8: you get little tiny pieces. So it's Austraya Forensics in

1450
01:16:45,040 --> 01:16:48,920
Speaker 8: Santa Cruz that's doing this, and they are using this

1451
01:16:49,320 --> 01:16:54,880
Speaker 8: novel technique but never done before anywhere. It's amazing, and

1452
01:16:55,520 --> 01:16:58,240
Speaker 8: the DNA looks different. So the first few cases I worked,

1453
01:16:58,280 --> 01:17:01,200
Speaker 8: I really had to look at it in a different

1454
01:17:01,240 --> 01:17:04,120
Speaker 8: way because we weren't seeing these long, identical segments of

1455
01:17:04,200 --> 01:17:07,400
Speaker 8: DNA that we usually use in genetic genealogy. They were

1456
01:17:07,520 --> 01:17:11,320
Speaker 8: much smaller. But Austraya has gotten really good at stringing

1457
01:17:11,360 --> 01:17:14,200
Speaker 8: those together now and filling in the gap. So now

1458
01:17:14,240 --> 01:17:16,360
Speaker 8: when you get one of those profiles, it's really not

1459
01:17:16,439 --> 01:17:20,200
Speaker 8: that different than working with any other profile for genetic genealogy.

1460
01:17:20,760 --> 01:17:23,360
Speaker 8: That's because they've made advances over the years that they've

1461
01:17:23,360 --> 01:17:26,200
Speaker 8: been working on it. But they're taking these fragments and

1462
01:17:26,240 --> 01:17:28,560
Speaker 8: sort of sewing them back together. For lack of it

1463
01:17:28,960 --> 01:17:30,800
Speaker 8: scientific way of explaining it.

1464
01:17:31,200 --> 01:17:36,080
Speaker 6: Wow, it's so amazing and complex, and again you're able

1465
01:17:36,120 --> 01:17:39,960
Speaker 6: to boil it down so that fellow theater majors like

1466
01:17:40,040 --> 01:17:44,439
Speaker 6: myself can actually understand Courtney are.

1467
01:17:44,520 --> 01:17:48,360
Speaker 1: Start talking about a little pippin anyone?

1468
01:17:48,800 --> 01:17:52,240
Speaker 3: Was it singing? Dancing? What was the theatrics? CC?

1469
01:17:52,920 --> 01:17:56,240
Speaker 8: For me, I started as a vocal performance major, which

1470
01:17:56,400 --> 01:17:59,360
Speaker 8: ended up being opera, which wasn't really what I was planning.

1471
01:17:59,520 --> 01:18:02,280
Speaker 8: I was musical theater lover, and I just thought, oh,

1472
01:18:02,280 --> 01:18:02,880
Speaker 8: I want to sing.

1473
01:18:04,080 --> 01:18:05,760
Speaker 3: We're going to hold that thought really quick.

1474
01:18:05,800 --> 01:18:08,040
Speaker 4: We're going to come back with ccmore this time just

1475
01:18:08,080 --> 01:18:10,000
Speaker 4: not about cracking a cold case. She's going to be

1476
01:18:10,080 --> 01:18:12,519
Speaker 4: digging into how this is so groundbreaking. Keep it right here.

1477
01:18:12,600 --> 01:18:15,439
Speaker 4: True crime tonight. We're talking true crime all the time.

1478
01:18:25,640 --> 01:18:28,559
Speaker 1: We have CC Moore, who was really, frankly, the queen

1479
01:18:28,680 --> 01:18:31,880
Speaker 1: of all things DNA and genetics. We've been kind of

1480
01:18:31,960 --> 01:18:35,000
Speaker 1: yapping during the break here just about what a great

1481
01:18:35,080 --> 01:18:37,880
Speaker 1: talker you are, so good and how you make us

1482
01:18:37,920 --> 01:18:41,680
Speaker 1: all feel smarter and more informed. You know, we've been

1483
01:18:41,680 --> 01:18:44,880
Speaker 1: following the Brian Coburger case obviously so very closely here

1484
01:18:44,920 --> 01:18:47,800
Speaker 1: on the show. We've made the podcast, the documentary, et cetera.

1485
01:18:48,280 --> 01:18:51,320
Speaker 1: Obviously DNA is at the core of this, including the

1486
01:18:51,320 --> 01:18:55,240
Speaker 1: genetic genealogy testing. Would love to jump into that a

1487
01:18:55,280 --> 01:18:55,760
Speaker 1: little bit.

1488
01:18:57,439 --> 01:18:59,320
Speaker 8: Yeah, you know, one thing I wanted to say about

1489
01:18:59,360 --> 01:19:03,639
Speaker 8: that is that everyone was really focused on that case

1490
01:19:03,840 --> 01:19:07,240
Speaker 8: as setting precedent in the courts. But we already had

1491
01:19:07,360 --> 01:19:12,360
Speaker 8: over seventy five convictions from people identified through investigative genetic genealogy,

1492
01:19:12,800 --> 01:19:15,240
Speaker 8: but they just didn't get as much attention. So there

1493
01:19:15,280 --> 01:19:17,680
Speaker 8: was a lot of fear that the judge would give

1494
01:19:17,720 --> 01:19:20,040
Speaker 8: a lot more leeway because it was a death penalty

1495
01:19:20,400 --> 01:19:25,360
Speaker 8: case and that that could negatively impact our future cases. Now,

1496
01:19:25,360 --> 01:19:28,400
Speaker 8: I don't think anyone really thought that would happen, but

1497
01:19:28,640 --> 01:19:30,920
Speaker 8: we did see him giving a lot more leeway to

1498
01:19:30,960 --> 01:19:33,559
Speaker 8: the defense because I think because it was a death

1499
01:19:33,600 --> 01:19:37,439
Speaker 8: penalty case, and rightly so. But it made us nervous

1500
01:19:37,479 --> 01:19:41,000
Speaker 8: because we had this really strong precedent that was already

1501
01:19:41,040 --> 01:19:43,240
Speaker 8: set all over North America, not even just the US,

1502
01:19:43,280 --> 01:19:46,200
Speaker 8: but in Canada as well, and we didn't want to

1503
01:19:46,200 --> 01:19:48,680
Speaker 8: see any of that be reversed, you know, because we

1504
01:19:48,680 --> 01:19:50,679
Speaker 8: were so happy it was moving in the right direction

1505
01:19:51,200 --> 01:19:55,120
Speaker 8: and it was keeping genetic genealogy out of the courts

1506
01:19:55,160 --> 01:19:58,360
Speaker 8: basically by considering it just a tip and then the

1507
01:19:58,439 --> 01:20:01,160
Speaker 8: evidence is what they gathered, you know, after they were

1508
01:20:01,160 --> 01:20:03,880
Speaker 8: pointed in the right direction. And so we were all

1509
01:20:03,960 --> 01:20:08,759
Speaker 8: super relieved that the judge kept his ruling in line

1510
01:20:08,840 --> 01:20:11,559
Speaker 8: with what had already been ruled in many, many other

1511
01:20:11,640 --> 01:20:12,879
Speaker 8: courts by other judges.

1512
01:20:13,479 --> 01:20:15,040
Speaker 1: And can I just break that down and make sure

1513
01:20:15,040 --> 01:20:18,040
Speaker 1: that I understand that correctly? So meaning obviously we know

1514
01:20:18,160 --> 01:20:23,320
Speaker 1: that Brian Coberger's father had discarded trash on his saliva

1515
01:20:23,760 --> 01:20:26,200
Speaker 1: was somehow so cute tip with this or a cute

1516
01:20:26,240 --> 01:20:31,880
Speaker 1: tip exactly, and therefore the familial dalna was identified Brian

1517
01:20:31,920 --> 01:20:37,120
Speaker 1: Coberger obviously being the son. If that had been dismissed

1518
01:20:37,240 --> 01:20:40,479
Speaker 1: or inadmissible in court, is that the fear that suddenly

1519
01:20:40,479 --> 01:20:44,599
Speaker 1: that would have maybe put a shadow on this type

1520
01:20:44,640 --> 01:20:47,400
Speaker 1: of testing in court because it was a death sentence

1521
01:20:47,439 --> 01:20:48,840
Speaker 1: trial and the provisions are higher.

1522
01:20:49,840 --> 01:20:52,280
Speaker 8: It actually wasn't that part. So that part of it

1523
01:20:52,320 --> 01:20:56,120
Speaker 8: goes back to the crime lab that is port admissible

1524
01:20:56,160 --> 01:21:00,160
Speaker 8: because they're going back to that traditional str profile that

1525
01:21:00,200 --> 01:21:04,480
Speaker 8: has been used in paternity tests and criminal cases for decades,

1526
01:21:04,960 --> 01:21:08,519
Speaker 8: and so that really didn't affect us. That was after

1527
01:21:09,000 --> 01:21:12,439
Speaker 8: the investigative genetic genealogy pointed toward Brian, and they were

1528
01:21:12,439 --> 01:21:15,599
Speaker 8: trying to collect that surreptitious DNA to confirm or refute

1529
01:21:15,600 --> 01:21:19,040
Speaker 8: that lead, and so they tried to get his DNA

1530
01:21:19,080 --> 01:21:21,639
Speaker 8: and ended up with his father's DNA. But then all

1531
01:21:21,680 --> 01:21:25,200
Speaker 8: they had to do was take those twenty str genetic

1532
01:21:25,280 --> 01:21:29,240
Speaker 8: markers and line it up against their crime scene and DNA,

1533
01:21:29,360 --> 01:21:32,080
Speaker 8: because we got half from Mom, half from Dad, right,

1534
01:21:32,200 --> 01:21:37,680
Speaker 8: so one whole column would match exactly to Dad's, one

1535
01:21:37,720 --> 01:21:40,760
Speaker 8: of his alleles would go to Brian, and then one

1536
01:21:40,760 --> 01:21:43,040
Speaker 8: of Mom's alleles would go to Brian, and so they

1537
01:21:43,040 --> 01:21:45,360
Speaker 8: could see right away it was a parent child match.

1538
01:21:45,960 --> 01:21:50,000
Speaker 8: But that was after us. The real question was fruit

1539
01:21:50,000 --> 01:21:51,640
Speaker 8: of the poison try And this has been brought up

1540
01:21:51,680 --> 01:21:54,760
Speaker 8: a lot, you know, because the FBI did use my

1541
01:21:54,840 --> 01:21:59,320
Speaker 8: Heritage prof of my Heritage database, which their terms of

1542
01:21:59,360 --> 01:22:03,599
Speaker 8: service bar law enforcement from using it. So that's not

1543
01:22:03,640 --> 01:22:05,840
Speaker 8: something my team has done. So that's actually not something

1544
01:22:05,880 --> 01:22:08,599
Speaker 8: that we have had come up in court, but other

1545
01:22:08,680 --> 01:22:11,320
Speaker 8: genetic genealogists have had that come up in court and

1546
01:22:11,400 --> 01:22:15,080
Speaker 8: even in appeal cases, and the ruling is always that

1547
01:22:15,120 --> 01:22:18,280
Speaker 8: where the public can go, law enforcement can go. So

1548
01:22:18,479 --> 01:22:20,639
Speaker 8: the company can say they don't like it, they can

1549
01:22:20,680 --> 01:22:23,080
Speaker 8: put it in their terms of service, but it's not,

1550
01:22:23,680 --> 01:22:27,240
Speaker 8: you know, a criminally legal issue. I say, it's not

1551
01:22:27,240 --> 01:22:30,679
Speaker 8: a legal issue, but they could sue they would like exactly,

1552
01:22:30,720 --> 01:22:33,520
Speaker 8: But criminally it's not an issue because it's not illegal

1553
01:22:34,080 --> 01:22:37,559
Speaker 8: for law enforcement to use a database surreptitiously that the

1554
01:22:37,560 --> 01:22:40,600
Speaker 8: public has full access to. And so that was the

1555
01:22:40,640 --> 01:22:41,200
Speaker 8: real question.

1556
01:22:41,560 --> 01:22:41,920
Speaker 3: Interesting.

1557
01:22:41,920 --> 01:22:44,840
Speaker 4: The first case I remember this being a thing in

1558
01:22:45,280 --> 01:22:48,000
Speaker 4: was Golden State Killer Joseph Dangelo, which, by the way,

1559
01:22:48,200 --> 01:22:50,120
Speaker 4: I'll be Gone in the Dark. You're in that documentary

1560
01:22:50,160 --> 01:22:53,080
Speaker 4: and you are fabulous in it. I'm obsessed with it. It's

1561
01:22:52,960 --> 01:22:57,000
Speaker 4: so good, and I remember, but I don't was that

1562
01:22:57,080 --> 01:22:59,760
Speaker 4: an issue in that case? Was this privacy concern? And

1563
01:22:59,760 --> 01:23:01,200
Speaker 4: what an issue in that case?

1564
01:23:01,280 --> 01:23:05,320
Speaker 8: Well, you know that was before any companies had any

1565
01:23:05,400 --> 01:23:09,800
Speaker 8: terms of service that addressed the issue. And so I

1566
01:23:09,840 --> 01:23:13,600
Speaker 8: had been working towards this idea of using genetic genealogy

1567
01:23:13,800 --> 01:23:16,840
Speaker 8: and the techniques that I had created for adoptees for

1568
01:23:17,000 --> 01:23:19,439
Speaker 8: law enforcement for a long time, but I knew it

1569
01:23:19,479 --> 01:23:22,240
Speaker 8: was going to be controversial. So I was plotting along

1570
01:23:22,400 --> 01:23:27,680
Speaker 8: very carefully, talking to genetic ethicis and attorneys and our

1571
01:23:27,720 --> 01:23:30,400
Speaker 8: own community, trying to find a way to do it

1572
01:23:30,479 --> 01:23:35,520
Speaker 8: ethically and responsibly, and so I wasn't at all surprised

1573
01:23:35,800 --> 01:23:38,599
Speaker 8: that it happened. But what did surprise me was how

1574
01:23:38,760 --> 01:23:43,559
Speaker 8: positively everyone reacted so much, so universally, that I was like, Wow,

1575
01:23:43,600 --> 01:23:45,479
Speaker 8: why have I been losing fleet for years trying to

1576
01:23:45,479 --> 01:23:47,800
Speaker 8: figure out how to do this without upsetting people and

1577
01:23:47,880 --> 01:23:52,200
Speaker 8: without raising these genetic privacy issues. Everyone was just so

1578
01:23:52,240 --> 01:23:54,720
Speaker 8: happy to have them caught that it was actually a

1579
01:23:54,760 --> 01:23:57,320
Speaker 8: good first case for it, you know, because it really

1580
01:23:57,360 --> 01:24:01,720
Speaker 8: got public support and really illustrated how powerful and important

1581
01:24:02,120 --> 01:24:05,240
Speaker 8: this work could be. And so that worked out. You know,

1582
01:24:05,320 --> 01:24:08,200
Speaker 8: I didn't work on that case. That was barbaraventor, and

1583
01:24:08,360 --> 01:24:12,000
Speaker 8: so I had been plotting towards inching towards that idea

1584
01:24:12,040 --> 01:24:14,639
Speaker 8: and then boom, that just blew the barn doors off,

1585
01:24:15,439 --> 01:24:17,879
Speaker 8: which is what allowed me to move forward. Then, because

1586
01:24:18,120 --> 01:24:21,840
Speaker 8: my concern was always using people's DNA, particularly people i'd

1587
01:24:21,920 --> 01:24:25,840
Speaker 8: encourage the test, which I probably had indirectly, you know,

1588
01:24:25,920 --> 01:24:28,640
Speaker 8: encouraged millions of people to take these tests through my

1589
01:24:28,760 --> 01:24:32,519
Speaker 8: various work, all the stories I had out there, and

1590
01:24:33,880 --> 01:24:36,160
Speaker 8: I didn't want people to see betrayed like I had

1591
01:24:36,240 --> 01:24:38,720
Speaker 8: used their DNA in a way. They weren't aware it

1592
01:24:38,720 --> 01:24:42,080
Speaker 8: could be used. So after that, everybody knew if their

1593
01:24:42,160 --> 01:24:45,400
Speaker 8: DNA was in jet match it could be used that way.

1594
01:24:45,520 --> 01:24:47,760
Speaker 8: Most people thought if their DNA was an Ancestry or

1595
01:24:47,800 --> 01:24:49,599
Speaker 8: twenty three and meters it could be used that way too,

1596
01:24:49,680 --> 01:24:51,680
Speaker 8: which is not the case. Still not the case for

1597
01:24:51,760 --> 01:24:55,840
Speaker 8: this day. Most people think any consumer DNA test can

1598
01:24:55,880 --> 01:25:00,080
Speaker 8: be used for these purposes. But that's not true. But

1599
01:25:01,400 --> 01:25:04,440
Speaker 8: and CC have allowed me, Yeah, go ahead.

1600
01:25:04,520 --> 01:25:07,559
Speaker 6: I just said that because that that paused me. So

1601
01:25:07,840 --> 01:25:11,680
Speaker 6: Ancestry and twenty three and me you said, cannot be used.

1602
01:25:12,120 --> 01:25:15,280
Speaker 8: For now, because it has to be a database that

1603
01:25:15,400 --> 01:25:18,760
Speaker 8: allows uploads. Because of course we're using forensic labs to

1604
01:25:18,840 --> 01:25:22,720
Speaker 8: create these SNIT profiles. They're not being sent to Ancestry

1605
01:25:22,800 --> 01:25:25,679
Speaker 8: or twenty three meters a process, and that's the only

1606
01:25:25,720 --> 01:25:28,320
Speaker 8: way you can get your DNA in their databases. You

1607
01:25:28,439 --> 01:25:30,280
Speaker 8: spit in that too. It has to be a living,

1608
01:25:30,360 --> 01:25:34,360
Speaker 8: breathing person. They require lots of saliva, not tiny tiny

1609
01:25:34,560 --> 01:25:37,320
Speaker 8: bits of DNA from crime scenes, not blood, not semen,

1610
01:25:37,920 --> 01:25:41,240
Speaker 8: but lots of saliva. And they partly require so much

1611
01:25:41,240 --> 01:25:43,560
Speaker 8: because they want to make sure that it's not surreptitious

1612
01:25:43,560 --> 01:25:46,360
Speaker 8: and the person who's being tested has consented to it,

1613
01:25:46,920 --> 01:25:51,800
Speaker 8: and so they can only technically use databases that allow uploads,

1614
01:25:51,880 --> 01:25:55,160
Speaker 8: which used to include my heritage. But after the Coburger

1615
01:25:55,200 --> 01:25:58,840
Speaker 8: case they stopped accepting uploads finally because it went the

1616
01:25:59,000 --> 01:26:01,880
Speaker 8: public that their data base had been used. I had

1617
01:26:01,920 --> 01:26:05,599
Speaker 8: been telling them since twenty eighteen, advising them, you know,

1618
01:26:05,640 --> 01:26:08,200
Speaker 8: that it was being used, and that they had hundreds

1619
01:26:08,200 --> 01:26:11,680
Speaker 8: of law enforcement files in there, and their users were

1620
01:26:11,680 --> 01:26:13,639
Speaker 8: not aware of that. And I really think that people

1621
01:26:13,680 --> 01:26:16,160
Speaker 8: deserve the right to decide. I want them to know

1622
01:26:17,360 --> 01:26:20,280
Speaker 8: that law enforcement is using the database, and then they

1623
01:26:20,280 --> 01:26:22,640
Speaker 8: can decide whether they want to participate and support that

1624
01:26:22,800 --> 01:26:25,800
Speaker 8: or not. And most people will, as it turns out.

1625
01:26:25,840 --> 01:26:28,000
Speaker 8: I've been involved in long term studies that show most

1626
01:26:28,000 --> 01:26:32,160
Speaker 8: people are super supportive, like by far in a way majority,

1627
01:26:32,800 --> 01:26:36,080
Speaker 8: and most think we're using all of those databases anyway.

1628
01:26:36,439 --> 01:26:38,280
Speaker 8: So why did you let them know?

1629
01:26:38,880 --> 01:26:41,000
Speaker 4: I think at Crime Con a couple of years ago,

1630
01:26:41,040 --> 01:26:43,679
Speaker 4: I think the Jane Doe project, it was collecting DNA

1631
01:26:44,080 --> 01:26:47,760
Speaker 4: from for jed match, and I did my dot project, yeah,

1632
01:26:47,760 --> 01:26:50,240
Speaker 4: the DNA do project, Thank you, and I gave my

1633
01:26:50,360 --> 01:26:52,479
Speaker 4: DNA and they did it right there, and they said

1634
01:26:52,479 --> 01:26:55,080
Speaker 4: that they found like seventeen people or something that or

1635
01:26:55,120 --> 01:26:58,519
Speaker 4: they identified seventeen people just at crime con alone, which

1636
01:26:58,560 --> 01:27:00,600
Speaker 4: is fascinating to me, And I think if you have

1637
01:27:00,680 --> 01:27:02,400
Speaker 4: the opportunity to do that, you should do that.

1638
01:27:02,920 --> 01:27:03,840
Speaker 3: But do you think c.

1639
01:27:03,960 --> 01:27:07,439
Speaker 4: See that the difference between let's put Coberger and Joseph

1640
01:27:07,479 --> 01:27:09,439
Speaker 4: d Angelo the Golden Statecular side by side, right.

1641
01:27:09,880 --> 01:27:10,400
Speaker 3: Do you think the.

1642
01:27:10,400 --> 01:27:13,920
Speaker 4: Issue is that Joseph Dangelo and the Golden State Killer

1643
01:27:14,040 --> 01:27:15,759
Speaker 4: was a cold case. Do you think that's why people

1644
01:27:15,800 --> 01:27:18,320
Speaker 4: were more acceptable of it or.

1645
01:27:18,960 --> 01:27:20,840
Speaker 8: I think people haven't had a lot of time to

1646
01:27:20,880 --> 01:27:24,400
Speaker 8: think about the potential negative aspects of it and the

1647
01:27:24,400 --> 01:27:27,599
Speaker 8: privacy issues. Right away, everyone was just so happy he

1648
01:27:27,680 --> 01:27:31,120
Speaker 8: was caught and that his survivors of his crimes and

1649
01:27:31,160 --> 01:27:37,320
Speaker 8: the families finally had an answer and justice eventually with Coberger.

1650
01:27:37,400 --> 01:27:40,880
Speaker 8: Now we've had years to debate this, to think about it,

1651
01:27:40,920 --> 01:27:43,559
Speaker 8: for the ethicists to come up with questions, for the

1652
01:27:43,640 --> 01:27:49,280
Speaker 8: naysayers to amplify their voices, and so later after that

1653
01:27:49,479 --> 01:27:51,960
Speaker 8: is when we got more of the reaction I was

1654
01:27:52,040 --> 01:27:54,680
Speaker 8: expecting from the beginning, because I was always talking to

1655
01:27:55,200 --> 01:27:57,800
Speaker 8: the community about it, the genealogy community, and I have

1656
01:27:57,920 --> 01:28:01,519
Speaker 8: actually approached twenty three, and they's CEO in twenty twelve,

1657
01:28:02,920 --> 01:28:07,599
Speaker 8: the ancestry DNA architect of their DNA system in twenty

1658
01:28:07,680 --> 01:28:10,160
Speaker 8: thirteen or maybe even twenty twelve with them as well,

1659
01:28:10,240 --> 01:28:12,720
Speaker 8: And I'd been schooled on why they were not going

1660
01:28:12,760 --> 01:28:15,600
Speaker 8: to allow law enforcement in their databases. So I was

1661
01:28:15,680 --> 01:28:19,639
Speaker 8: super aware of all the issues really early, but most

1662
01:28:19,680 --> 01:28:22,479
Speaker 8: people hadn't had time to think about that yet when

1663
01:28:22,600 --> 01:28:25,080
Speaker 8: the gold and peate killer was caught, so everyone was

1664
01:28:25,120 --> 01:28:29,600
Speaker 8: just celebrating. Months later when people really started settling in like,

1665
01:28:29,640 --> 01:28:33,120
Speaker 8: wait a minute, what does this really mean? So Coberger

1666
01:28:33,280 --> 01:28:37,479
Speaker 8: in that regard, you know, came after all of these

1667
01:28:37,479 --> 01:28:41,000
Speaker 8: discussions had already started and the concerns were much more

1668
01:28:42,040 --> 01:28:46,160
Speaker 8: discussed and out there in the open. But we also

1669
01:28:46,240 --> 01:28:50,000
Speaker 8: have to look at the public safety issue with him.

1670
01:28:50,240 --> 01:28:54,080
Speaker 8: You know, the FBI did go against the terms of service,

1671
01:28:54,720 --> 01:28:57,599
Speaker 8: but it was in the interest of public safety, because

1672
01:28:57,640 --> 01:29:01,679
Speaker 8: an active case is where we can really have the

1673
01:29:01,720 --> 01:29:07,639
Speaker 8: most important and significant impactly and save lives. Right, they

1674
01:29:07,640 --> 01:29:11,200
Speaker 8: did their job, and some people are unhappy about it,

1675
01:29:11,320 --> 01:29:15,160
Speaker 8: but their job is to save lives, which they very

1676
01:29:15,320 --> 01:29:18,240
Speaker 8: likely did, since I mean it's kind of unlikely it

1677
01:29:18,280 --> 01:29:19,959
Speaker 8: was a one and done thing and he would.

1678
01:29:19,760 --> 01:29:22,559
Speaker 3: Never do anything more. Yeah, he was just warming up.

1679
01:29:22,720 --> 01:29:23,519
Speaker 3: Let's be honest.

1680
01:29:23,560 --> 01:29:25,639
Speaker 1: Had he not been taken off the streets, he would

1681
01:29:25,640 --> 01:29:26,360
Speaker 1: have struck again.

1682
01:29:26,800 --> 01:29:28,080
Speaker 3: Absolutely, I agree.

1683
01:29:28,120 --> 01:29:31,360
Speaker 8: You know, it's hard to argue otherwise because if he

1684
01:29:31,439 --> 01:29:33,559
Speaker 8: was successful, right, if he got away with it, that

1685
01:29:33,720 --> 01:29:37,160
Speaker 8: just pumped him up even more. And so, you know,

1686
01:29:37,320 --> 01:29:39,760
Speaker 8: I have always been the loudest voice about doing things

1687
01:29:39,800 --> 01:29:43,120
Speaker 8: the right way, following the rules, best practices, follow the ethics.

1688
01:29:43,479 --> 01:29:46,800
Speaker 8: But in a case like that, I can also argue

1689
01:29:46,840 --> 01:29:51,320
Speaker 8: the other side. You know, these kids, these wonderful kids,

1690
01:29:51,360 --> 01:29:53,760
Speaker 8: were taken from their family, their lives were snuffed out,

1691
01:29:54,200 --> 01:29:56,759
Speaker 8: and he could have done it again a month later

1692
01:29:57,320 --> 01:30:00,280
Speaker 8: if they hadn't stopped him. And so in that case,

1693
01:30:00,479 --> 01:30:03,519
Speaker 8: I understand why they made the decisions that they made.

1694
01:30:04,320 --> 01:30:07,960
Speaker 8: I'm not necessarily saying, you know, it's right or wrong.

1695
01:30:08,120 --> 01:30:10,439
Speaker 8: I wouldn't have done it. My team doesn't do that.

1696
01:30:11,040 --> 01:30:15,160
Speaker 8: But I'm also not the FBI, so I'm still a layman.

1697
01:30:15,840 --> 01:30:19,880
Speaker 8: And so I'm sure they talked to the DOJ and

1698
01:30:20,280 --> 01:30:25,000
Speaker 8: got an exception and proceeded because I know that that's

1699
01:30:25,000 --> 01:30:26,920
Speaker 8: something that happened. Some people say, you know what am

1700
01:30:26,920 --> 01:30:30,680
Speaker 8: I talking about? They criticized me. I've spoken to FBI

1701
01:30:31,680 --> 01:30:35,480
Speaker 8: professionals who told me they are able to get exceptions

1702
01:30:36,000 --> 01:30:39,640
Speaker 8: when it's a real public safety threat, which obviously that

1703
01:30:39,760 --> 01:30:43,200
Speaker 8: one was, and so I believe they very likely got

1704
01:30:43,240 --> 01:30:46,160
Speaker 8: permission to do that from their superiors. So it wasn't

1705
01:30:46,160 --> 01:30:50,000
Speaker 8: like they just went rogue and did it, you know,

1706
01:30:50,320 --> 01:30:54,400
Speaker 8: behind the scenes. But regardless, they didn't break any laws.

1707
01:30:54,400 --> 01:30:56,280
Speaker 8: And that's what our court come down to.

1708
01:30:56,400 --> 01:30:56,559
Speaker 4: Right.

1709
01:30:56,560 --> 01:30:58,599
Speaker 8: You can argue all you want the ethics of it,

1710
01:30:59,080 --> 01:31:01,800
Speaker 8: but they didn't break any criminal laws by doing it,

1711
01:31:01,880 --> 01:31:04,280
Speaker 8: and so that is why they lost. The defense lost

1712
01:31:04,280 --> 01:31:08,080
Speaker 8: that argument, and that DNA evidence was allowed to be kept,

1713
01:31:08,120 --> 01:31:11,679
Speaker 8: which is what led ultimately to his plea deal, because

1714
01:31:11,680 --> 01:31:13,760
Speaker 8: that's happened in so many of my cases where the

1715
01:31:13,800 --> 01:31:17,639
Speaker 8: defense has tried to fight the genetic genealogy use, even

1716
01:31:17,680 --> 01:31:21,640
Speaker 8: without using my heritage, but just in general using it,

1717
01:31:21,680 --> 01:31:25,360
Speaker 8: and they lose, and then the criminal takes a plea

1718
01:31:25,400 --> 01:31:27,439
Speaker 8: deal and it keeps the family from having to go

1719
01:31:27,479 --> 01:31:31,400
Speaker 8: through that trial and have those wounds ripped back open

1720
01:31:31,439 --> 01:31:32,960
Speaker 8: in a twenty year old case.

1721
01:31:33,560 --> 01:31:36,720
Speaker 6: Well, any cc once, I mean, you've done this now

1722
01:31:36,760 --> 01:31:39,679
Speaker 6: about seven times and just shed light on things that

1723
01:31:40,280 --> 01:31:43,280
Speaker 6: I personally and we collectively have been looking into and

1724
01:31:43,320 --> 01:31:44,640
Speaker 6: yet couldn't quite understand.

1725
01:31:44,880 --> 01:31:47,040
Speaker 5: Do you know how many interviews we've done about the

1726
01:31:47,040 --> 01:31:47,719
Speaker 5: Fourth Amendment?

1727
01:31:47,760 --> 01:31:50,040
Speaker 6: And Brian Coberger and you cleared it up in a

1728
01:31:50,160 --> 01:31:54,200
Speaker 6: radio segment, So yeah, you really are a star and

1729
01:31:54,240 --> 01:31:57,920
Speaker 6: a queen, as Devanie said, and CC before we wrap,

1730
01:31:58,040 --> 01:32:00,920
Speaker 6: we have a couple of minutes left, and I understand

1731
01:32:00,960 --> 01:32:05,000
Speaker 6: you started a new database called DNA justice dot org.

1732
01:32:05,760 --> 01:32:06,559
Speaker 5: Tell us about it.

1733
01:32:06,640 --> 01:32:09,400
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, and you know what, this conversation leads right

1734
01:32:09,479 --> 01:32:12,000
Speaker 8: into it. So even though over fifty million people have

1735
01:32:12,120 --> 01:32:15,760
Speaker 8: taken consumer DNA tests, we are unfortunately limited to the

1736
01:32:15,760 --> 01:32:19,720
Speaker 8: two smallest databases and only about two million people are

1737
01:32:19,760 --> 01:32:22,839
Speaker 8: in those, and so it's really hard to solve these crimes.

1738
01:32:22,840 --> 01:32:26,200
Speaker 8: It takes a lot of skill, resources time. If we

1739
01:32:26,400 --> 01:32:30,320
Speaker 8: could have access to a larger database, like the FBI

1740
01:32:30,400 --> 01:32:33,120
Speaker 8: did in the Coviger case, then we can identify these

1741
01:32:33,200 --> 01:32:35,760
Speaker 8: violent from those much more quickly. The other problem is

1742
01:32:35,800 --> 01:32:39,800
Speaker 8: the two databases were allowed to use are owned by

1743
01:32:39,880 --> 01:32:43,599
Speaker 8: for profit private companies, so they could change their minds

1744
01:32:43,760 --> 01:32:47,800
Speaker 8: and decided to block law enforcement. They could sell it

1745
01:32:48,080 --> 01:32:53,479
Speaker 8: to a private person or company and make it proprietary

1746
01:32:53,520 --> 01:32:56,360
Speaker 8: and they keep raising their prices. So when we started

1747
01:32:56,400 --> 01:32:59,599
Speaker 8: it was free, and then it was very inexpensive. Now

1748
01:33:00,080 --> 01:33:03,080
Speaker 8: one thousand dollars for law enforcement to upload one case

1749
01:33:03,160 --> 01:33:06,880
Speaker 8: to jedmatch and fourteen hundred to Family Tree DNA, and

1750
01:33:06,920 --> 01:33:08,680
Speaker 8: they have a bit of a monopoly, right they can

1751
01:33:08,760 --> 01:33:13,040
Speaker 8: just keep raising those crises. So I started a nonprofit

1752
01:33:13,200 --> 01:33:17,720
Speaker 8: database that is just for law enforcement use. And so

1753
01:33:17,840 --> 01:33:20,479
Speaker 8: you have to be doing a good deed to help

1754
01:33:20,560 --> 01:33:23,000
Speaker 8: us out here, because you're not going to get anything back,

1755
01:33:23,360 --> 01:33:25,240
Speaker 8: and that's what makes it hard, because you're not going

1756
01:33:25,280 --> 01:33:27,800
Speaker 8: to be able to see your own matches. But it's

1757
01:33:27,840 --> 01:33:31,479
Speaker 8: also good for people that are worried about their genetic privacy,

1758
01:33:31,600 --> 01:33:34,120
Speaker 8: meaning maybe they don't want to find their adopted sister,

1759
01:33:34,439 --> 01:33:38,040
Speaker 8: find any unexpected family surprises. They can still help law

1760
01:33:38,120 --> 01:33:43,080
Speaker 8: enforcement because only law enforcement and professional genetic genealogists working

1761
01:33:43,120 --> 01:33:45,599
Speaker 8: the cases are able to get there.

1762
01:33:45,760 --> 01:33:47,000
Speaker 5: That is so wonderful.

1763
01:33:47,040 --> 01:33:52,960
Speaker 6: Listen cecmore Week, thank you one million times, and yeah

1764
01:33:53,520 --> 01:33:55,960
Speaker 6: CC Moore on True Crime Tonight.