1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:07,240 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 2: I believe the moment the American dream becomes unaffordable and 3 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 2: inaccessible is exactly when our democracy becomes unstable. 4 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,799 Speaker 1: I'm Stephanie Flanders, head of Government and Economics at Bloomberg, 5 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:29,479 Speaker 1: and this is Trump Economics, the podcast that looks at 6 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: the economic world of Donald Trump, how he's already shaped 7 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:35,560 Speaker 1: the global economy, what on earth is going to happen next? 8 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 1: And this week it's a conversation with Rahm Emmanuel, a 9 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: longtime Washington operator. He's also been White House chief of 10 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: staff for Congressman mayor of Chicago, and President Biden's ambassador 11 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 1: to Japan, and now, by all accounts, he's thinking about 12 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 1: running for president. We're recording this on Thursday, the thirtieth 13 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: of October, and any one of those parts of his 14 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 1: resume would give me plenty of reason to have Ram 15 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 1: and Manuel on the show. But I'm going to focus 16 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 1: here on the alternative to Trumpanomics that the Democrats need 17 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: to offer to have a chance of retaking power in 18 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:13,399 Speaker 1: the next few years. The root cause of the fraught 19 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 1: state of American politics, Rahm says, is that the American 20 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 1: dream has become unaffordable, out of reach for the majority 21 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: of families. Democrats need to confront that head on, But 22 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 1: how in a country that no longer seems to be 23 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: able to countenance tax increases? For example? He also thinks 24 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: President Trump's China policies have been costly and wrong. The 25 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 1: President is now back from his Asia tour, but how 26 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:41,120 Speaker 1: exactly would the former ambassador to Japan have done things differently, 27 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 1: especially now that China seems, if anything, to have gained 28 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 1: the upper hand. So that's plenty, But given his very 29 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 1: close association with Chicago, I also can't help wondering what 30 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: Rama Manual thinks about the way that American cities have 31 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: been thrust to the center of President Trump's efforts to 32 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 1: pumme up Democrats, ordering troops to Portland, Los Angeles, Washington, 33 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 1: and Chicago and threatening to withhold funding for New York, 34 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 1: for example. Partly it's about stoking confusion and chaos in 35 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 1: traditional Democratic strongholds, but there's a sense in which the 36 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:19,519 Speaker 1: President is also trying to weaponize a divide between rural 37 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 1: and urban parts of America that's been building for a 38 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 1: while and has not necessarily been good for Democrats. Rami 39 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 1: Manuel I've talked far too much, but you can hear 40 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:32,359 Speaker 1: there's a lot I'd like to hear you talk about. 41 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:33,959 Speaker 1: Thank you for joining trump andomics. 42 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:35,520 Speaker 2: Well, thanks for having me. 43 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 1: We will get onto your vision for an anti trumpnomics. 44 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 1: You know, economic policies that can get Democrats elected. But 45 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 1: first that issue about cities. I mean, Democrats have to 46 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 1: navigate what President Trump is doing and threatening right now 47 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 1: to do in American cities. What's the smart way to 48 00:02:58,720 --> 00:02:59,360 Speaker 1: respond to that. 49 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 2: Well, let me push back on one thing in that introduction. 50 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 2: It's not about an anti Trump. Everything I'm trying to 51 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 2: do is about being a pro American. Fair enough, it's 52 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 2: a very different flavor. It's not just a critique. But 53 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 2: I think the American people I don't I'm not usually 54 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 2: a glass half full kind of guy, actually know what 55 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 2: we're doing right now is fundamentally wrong to the future. 56 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 2: I think if you think about twenty twenty eight in 57 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 2: the presidential but also about what you want to do 58 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 2: with it, this is about who can articulate about fighting 59 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 2: for America, not just fighting against Trump. If you look 60 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 2: at what I've talked about on education, housing, a national 61 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 2: industrial policy, these are all about fighting for America not 62 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 2: fighting against Trump. 63 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 1: That's a fair point. 64 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 2: B to the core question about cities. This is a 65 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 2: political strategy as well as it is anything else. Now, look, 66 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 2: there's both a good and a bad. Thirty of the 67 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 2: largest metropolitan areas in America are seventy five percent of 68 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 2: all your GDP. I used to joke as mayor of 69 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 2: the City of Chicago, the metropolit the Chicago area is 70 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 2: the twenty first largest economy in the world. We could 71 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 2: join the g twenty. It's not that exciting. I've been 72 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 2: to the meetings. I wouldn't go, but that's how big 73 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 2: the Chicago economy is. Now. If you want to compete 74 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 2: and win, you don't bash the economic engines of your country. 75 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 2: The negative side of that is, well, there's a concentration 76 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 2: of economic growth and possibility. It's also to concentrate it. 77 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:27,599 Speaker 2: This is an attempt which is all part of Donald 78 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:31,720 Speaker 2: Trump's strategy. It's reliant dealing with our common challenges, divisions 79 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 2: and drive them. He said it, so you're not looking 80 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 2: for me to interpret. Goes to a funeral for Charlie Kirk. 81 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:41,239 Speaker 2: I hate my enemies, goes to Iowa, says democrats hate America. 82 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:43,280 Speaker 2: You and I are doing this interview the same day 83 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:45,040 Speaker 2: that they announced that they're going to create a unit 84 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 2: within the deal with civil disobedience in cities. So to me, 85 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 2: this is about division, This is about his politics, and 86 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:54,920 Speaker 2: it has nothing to do with helping strengthen America. 87 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:58,359 Speaker 1: On the cities, certainly the leaders don't feel that what 88 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:02,160 Speaker 1: they needed was troops. But when there is a sort 89 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 1: of lack of trust there that the president is taking 90 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 1: advantage of that, when the big cities cry foul and 91 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 1: say we need help with this, but we don't want 92 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: help with that, there is a lack of sympathy out 93 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:17,919 Speaker 1: in the broader country. 94 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 2: Well, I think I start from a different perspective. The 95 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:26,279 Speaker 2: American people prefer order versus disorder. Under Joe Biden, the 96 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 2: disorder was an uncontrolled border that looked way out of 97 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:32,479 Speaker 2: control with people bring and the federal government looked like 98 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:36,479 Speaker 2: it didn't give a rats here. Donald Trump has moved 99 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,719 Speaker 2: the disorder from the border into himself. If you think 100 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 2: for a moment, the American people who don't live in 101 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:44,840 Speaker 2: Chicago or don't live in Portland, like the fact that 102 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 2: people are wearing chemical masks, shooting tear gas at fellow 103 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 2: residents of the city of Chicago or Portland or I 104 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 2: disagree with your political assessment. Now do I think over 105 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 2: the last twenty years the urban elite have rubbed people's 106 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 2: faith seeing that they are superior. Well, I've been talking 107 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 2: about that for the last twenty years, and you all 108 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:08,479 Speaker 2: have finally caught up that we were walking around. I 109 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 2: can't say it on your podcasts, but like that we 110 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 2: were superior on a host of things economically and culturally, 111 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:19,119 Speaker 2: and we had a disdain for the way other people 112 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:22,479 Speaker 2: live their lives. That's a different issue. Then you have 113 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 2: what's coming to you. Then we're we have every right 114 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 2: to throw tear gas? 115 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: Are you? 116 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:28,480 Speaker 2: And I would argue that's not Stephanie, work with the 117 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 2: American people are I'll back that up with data. 118 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:33,600 Speaker 1: And just on a practical level. This is the last 119 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: one on this. No one's going to listen to the 120 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 1: economic prescriptions of the Democrats. If the president has succeeded 121 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:42,479 Speaker 1: in fostering the idea that there is a crisis on 122 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: American streets, even if he has created that crisis, even 123 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: if he's fermented that violence, if it's there, he could 124 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 1: well be successful in sort of making people feel that 125 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:55,039 Speaker 1: there was a crisis that needed special measures. 126 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:59,719 Speaker 2: Quote unquote, let me get it this way, dear my view, 127 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 2: Democrats hate what he's doing. Independent voters, swing voters, on 128 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 2: affiliated voters by either party are uncomfortable with an untethered, 129 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 2: unchecked Donald Trump. So the more that corporate America, the 130 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 2: Supreme Courts, and the repose in Congress play complicit to this, 131 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 2: this is not going to work. And I have enough 132 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 2: data to show that that that's exactly what's happened in 133 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 2: every election since twenty twenty four. All the skills and 134 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 2: qualities that you think make Donald Trump appealing politically work 135 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 2: against it in government. 136 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 1: Okay, So the economic diagnosis that you would have that 137 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: you think would be a winning strategy and indeed good 138 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:41,559 Speaker 1: for America in the next few years. Yeah, that comes 139 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 1: to No, you're right when I say anti trumpenomics, I 140 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 1: just mean it's just a neat phrase. I actually do mean, 141 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 1: what's a better economic strategy, what's your diagnosis, what's your 142 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: cure everything? 143 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 2: I'm being a jerk, that's all right. 144 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 1: Your reputation, your reputation precedes you. 145 00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, But the new thing is I'm aware now that 146 00:07:59,000 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 2: I'm okay. 147 00:07:59,880 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 1: The first step that's at least the first step. 148 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 2: Well one is I believe the moment the American Dream 149 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 2: becomes unaffordable and inaccessible is exactly when our democracy becomes unstable. 150 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 2: It's not a coincidence. That is housing gets out of reach, 151 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 2: college education gets out of reach. People aren't saving for 152 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 2: their retirement, their one illness away from Chapter eleven bankruptcy, 153 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 2: and only ten percent of the American people have access 154 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 2: to it or their kids have access to the American dream. 155 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 2: Where you associate with the American dream is when you 156 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 2: have all the politics of resentment and instability in the 157 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:34,679 Speaker 2: political system. So to me, both good economics as well 158 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 2: as good politics restore the confidence and the accessibility of 159 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:41,199 Speaker 2: the American Dream. Starts with home ownership. I would just 160 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 2: say this upfront, and Amy and I became empty nesters. 161 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:48,959 Speaker 2: The idea that we can get a mortgage for retirement 162 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:52,839 Speaker 2: home is insane. You have young families trying to start 163 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 2: off on the American Dream. They can't get a down 164 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:58,200 Speaker 2: payment or a mortgage for their first home, and I, 165 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 2: in my position in life, get a mortgage deduction, which 166 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 2: means other people are covering my butt. This is crazy, 167 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:06,719 Speaker 2: and there's things you can do along the way. I've 168 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:10,959 Speaker 2: worked on on healthcare, I've worked on retirement security as 169 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:12,679 Speaker 2: mayor of the City of Chicago. If you've got to 170 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 2: be average, we made community college free. Seventy five percent 171 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 2: of the kids that took it with a first in 172 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 2: their family now and to finish high school, but to 173 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 2: go to college. To me, there's a serious of things 174 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 2: you could do where the building blocks of the American 175 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:28,080 Speaker 2: dream become affordable again. Over the last thirty years. It 176 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 2: did not happen over Tunald Trump. All of us accepted it. 177 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 2: The ladder got pulled up. Everything from home ownership to 178 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 2: college education, to retirement security, to healthcare. The ladder got 179 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 2: pulled up, and we were comfortable as long as our 180 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 2: kids were comfortable. And everybody has a right to be 181 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 2: pissed off. And as I jokingly say, paranoid people have 182 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 2: enemies too. This system is rigged against your success. You're 183 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:55,200 Speaker 2: not paranoid. And I've spent a good time in my 184 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 2: career trying to undrig the system. I'm now for rigging 185 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 2: it on. Behalf of the family that work hard, play 186 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:04,199 Speaker 2: by the rules. Number two. This is a passion of mine. 187 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 2: But I happen to think It's also true if you 188 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:09,439 Speaker 2: go back through the five great periods of economic growth 189 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 2: in American history, there's one constant education reform and education 190 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 2: accessibility Langrand College's GI bill universal high school education. The 191 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 2: idea that we got a report card two thirds of 192 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 2: our kids cannot do reading a mathic grade level, and 193 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 2: now the president, not a governor, has spoken up is 194 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:29,960 Speaker 2: a crisis. Our kids are failing and our adults are 195 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 2: failing their kids. Three Which is the kind of goose 196 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:37,720 Speaker 2: that lays the golden egg. Your research universities that are 197 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 2: the envy of the world. You said, declared war on cities. 198 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 2: You're declaring war on the golden goose. Get back AI, semiconductors, biotech, etc. 199 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:53,079 Speaker 2: Take the quantum, Take all the twelve major areas that 200 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 2: China's declared war out America and fundamentally fund them to 201 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 2: where we go back to four percent of our GDP 202 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 2: is in research dollars on the public sector side, not 203 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 2: counting private into the core technologies that are going to 204 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 2: determine who owns the future. And we have a great 205 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 2: resource need to be reformed, a great resource that we've 206 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 2: decided to declare war on. Ala Harvard mit Ala Stanford, etc. 207 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 2: Rather than invest in it. Fourth, what can't be aied 208 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 2: out or outsourced, etc. Fundamentally invest in America's modernization of 209 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 2: its infrastructure. Fifth, as it relates to illegal immigrants, there's 210 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 2: no wall high enough that I'm not for, and there's 211 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 2: no enforcement at the workplace that I'm not for, including 212 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 2: the employers that hire people illegally. Now, let's reform our 213 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 2: legal immigration so it reflects the twenty percentury. No firing people, 214 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 2: want to come to this country, want to get a 215 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 2: green carried, want to become Americans. Is self inflicted rules, 216 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 2: you're illegal, you cross illegal. As a guy that created 217 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:09,319 Speaker 2: Operation Gatekeeper for President Clinton, forget about it. Illegal is illegal. 218 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 2: The guiding principles for immigration reform or a nation of 219 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 2: emigrants and a national laws or respect both. I probably 220 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 2: left a ton of stuff out. It's another five. I 221 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 2: think that those are the five things I would do 222 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 2: to get America out of neutral movement. 223 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 1: Your point about the universities, because it overlaps with something 224 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 1: we said before. My colleague Shawn Donn a very great 225 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: peace about this. We underestimate how much universities have been 226 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 1: part of the economic revival of a lot of big 227 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 1: cities that had been and de industrialized and other things. 228 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 1: So it's also it's kind of hurting his President Trump's 229 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 1: industrialization and agenda. I mean, what he's doing to universe. 230 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 2: I don't I don't mean to cut you off, but 231 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 2: it would not be in a manual I did. But 232 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 2: take a look at the President did a conference in 233 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 2: western Pennsylvania, Pittsburgh area about AI and the data. So 234 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:59,320 Speaker 2: you know, you look twenty years ago, fifteen years ago, 235 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 2: we talked about the de industrialization of America and because 236 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 2: of energy production Carnel emailon in Pittsburgh, University of Pittsburgh, 237 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:12,079 Speaker 2: and you look at what they've done in the investment. 238 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 2: You can take an old steel plant and make it 239 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 2: a data center or a producer of major kind of electricity. 240 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 2: And now you have known the reindustrialization but the economic 241 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 2: opportunity for that area that twenty years ago you would 242 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 2: not be writing about. You'll be talking about the jobs 243 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 2: and the factories that are losing. And you can't talk 244 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 2: about the revitalization of Pittsburgh or emails not mention at 245 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 2: least in the first three fattuses, or the University of 246 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 2: Pittsburgh for that matter. 247 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:41,079 Speaker 1: So you could revive a lot of that research. That 248 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 1: the core government funding research is not actually a big 249 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 1: money in the scheme of things, but education, reforming education, 250 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 1: and transforming infrastructure that is big money. In the case 251 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 1: of infrastructure, it was actually done, I mean an ex 252 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 1: generational supposedly, certainly the biggest in a long time. Infrastructure 253 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 1: bill passed by President didn't seem to move the needle. 254 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 2: Two things. One to say, I want to get back 255 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:07,199 Speaker 2: to this because it relates. I happen to think robotics 256 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 2: is going to be essential to the future. Carnegie Mellon 257 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 2: leads the country. My guest lecture at MITEAM just got canceled, 258 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 2: but there's no doubt that Carnegie Mellon leads it. You 259 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 2: could make Carne Mellon the core of your funding at 260 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 2: the federal government for robotics. With University of Ohio, Michigan 261 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 2: and mik you could do a consortium and say, Okay, 262 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 2: here's going to be what the guaranteed stream, here's where 263 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 2: we want to see you invest. You've got to bring 264 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 2: public private dollars in and we want to see X, 265 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 2: Y and Z. Now they did do stuff on infrastructure, 266 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 2: you know, Donald Trump, I will say this in his 267 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 2: first term called it for Infrastructure week every week. Now 268 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 2: the new thing for his infrastructures canceling projects rather than 269 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 2: promoting them, and nobody's called it out. He's decided not 270 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 2: to invest in America's competitiveness, but to literally cut it off. 271 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 2: But there's things that have to be done, not just 272 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 2: in rural but in small town America, both on the 273 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 2: infrastructure and the education. You look at it a small 274 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 2: town in America, A community college, a hospital, unfortunately a prison. 275 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 2: Those are the economic opportunities, and we need to make 276 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 2: the investments, both in the infrastructure and the workforce that 277 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 2: make that an attractive place. Would a data center, a 278 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 2: new production of alternative energy or old energy? 279 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 1: But are you going to need money? I mean, on 280 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: that you might be able to get some private funding. 281 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 1: But on the education, I mean you are talking about 282 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: some costly interventions in the economy to make the American 283 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 1: dream more affordable. How are you going to do it? 284 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 2: Well? Yes and no. I'm going to be going down 285 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 2: in a couple months to Mississippi. They have a what's 286 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 2: called the Mississippi Miracle. They went from forty ninth on 287 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 2: reading toninth. Now, either they did really well or basically 288 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 2: everybody else did really bad. They did it over a decade, 289 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 2: so you can basically redirect it and get better results 290 00:15:56,160 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 2: and not continue to spend money on failure. Now it 291 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 2: relates to spending other types of infrastructure. There's a trillion 292 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 2: dollars there. Spend it, make it, and force it out. 293 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 2: Democrats got so preoccupied with the rule making they never 294 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 2: got the results. 295 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 1: The criticism of Democrats is they didn't get stuff done. 296 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 1: And we know, one of the things that's been a 297 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 1: sort of distinguishing feature of President Trump ever since he 298 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 1: kind of came more onto the scene in New York 299 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 1: in the nineties was this sort of sense of you know, 300 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 1: I'm going to get stuff done. I'm going to get 301 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 1: this ice open that had been closed for a long 302 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 1: time because the city was stupid. And you sound like 303 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 1: you just constantly wanting to go back to that that 304 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 1: you're channeling and reminding people of all the times that 305 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 1: you've got things done. One of the things that you 306 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 1: helped to get done was actually quite a kind of 307 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: historic deficit reduction plan in the first Clinton administration, which 308 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 1: seems almost inconceivable. Now, how would you do that just practically, 309 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:07,640 Speaker 1: because we certainly haven't seen that for a long time, 310 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:08,679 Speaker 1: including under Biden. 311 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:12,920 Speaker 2: Three things. One, the budget gets balanced and he doesn't 312 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 2: get enough of them applause. Because George Herbert Walker Bush 313 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 2: forty one showed leadership and broke his promise and raised taxes, 314 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:24,639 Speaker 2: got elected saying read my lips, and he got unelected 315 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,400 Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety two because he broke in ninety one. 316 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 2: Bill Clinton comes in in nineteen ninety three building on 317 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:34,439 Speaker 2: that progress. That's fair, and in ninety three there's no 318 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 2: Republican support, passes the deficit reduction and raises. 319 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 1: Revenue and raises taxes on the higher earners. 320 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 2: And you could argue that that piece because it wasn't 321 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 2: felt economically like it did in the second term or 322 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:49,399 Speaker 2: in the back end of the first term, et cetera. 323 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 2: Starts the deficit on a massive reduction. Interest rates get 324 00:17:54,320 --> 00:18:00,119 Speaker 2: also massively cut. Third, underappreciated, totally separate is the the 325 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 2: Internet boom in productivity is just taking off. So you 326 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 2: had a kind of the cocktail of ninety one, ninety 327 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 2: three and Internet all together lead to this now the 328 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:16,440 Speaker 2: Dirty Little Secret. And I can tell you an anecdote 329 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:19,200 Speaker 2: from it. The Dirty Little Secret was in by nineteen 330 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 2: ninety seven, the budget was going to be balanced, whether 331 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 2: you had a balanced budget agreement. I stood in the 332 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:27,399 Speaker 2: back of Erskine Bowl's chief of staff's office with Bob Rubin, 333 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:30,639 Speaker 2: and Bob was against this. He was against a balanced 334 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 2: budget agree because I see no reason to do this. 335 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:35,239 Speaker 2: It's going to be balanced. I said, Bob. There's an 336 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 2: old rule in Chicago from Richard J. Day. When you 337 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 2: see a parade, get your Brittanna, get in front of it. 338 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 2: And I said, we're going to get political credit in 339 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 2: the same way that the Berlin Wall was going to 340 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 2: come down. Whether George Bush did anything so that happened, 341 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:51,640 Speaker 2: that's a build up. The answer to your question, I'd 342 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 2: passed immediately a rule in Congress, and Congress were passing 343 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 2: never can interest on the debt exceed defense a budget? Oh? 344 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 1: Is that the Neil Ferguson rule. He's credited with saying 345 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 1: that's when you stop being a great power. 346 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:07,440 Speaker 2: Read the article very persuasive. So here's what Republicans like 347 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 2: defense spending. I'm all for it because I actually think 348 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 2: it's important as a detern to China. So here's the rule. 349 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 2: Never can interest on the debt exceed your defense budget. 350 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 2: And once you create that discipline like ram Rudman Hollings 351 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 2: did in the past, you will start to see deficit reduction. 352 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 1: Or you'll start to see a president that's trying very 353 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 1: hard to increase defense spending faster than the debt bills 354 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 1: going up and also push down interest rates by taking 355 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 1: control of the federal reserve. I mean, that's what it 356 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:34,919 Speaker 1: also incentivizes. 357 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:38,440 Speaker 2: Also, it could be the way to force the Congress 358 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:41,679 Speaker 2: deal with unlike some people that talked about deficit reduction 359 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 2: but never did Bowl Simpson actually deal with revenue. 360 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:47,360 Speaker 1: Anyone sensible looking at the budget, looking at a six 361 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:50,439 Speaker 1: percent of GDP budget deficit in a booming economy. It's 362 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 1: booming in terms of the level of unemployment and other things, right, 363 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 1: Anyone looking at that would say there has to be 364 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 1: a tax increase in America's future. But anyone looking at 365 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 1: Congress for the asked well for a long time, would 366 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 1: say there was no chance of that. And looking at 367 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 1: any presidential candidate, frankly. 368 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 2: That's why I think Republics haven't done anything on tariffs. 369 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 2: Donald Trump has raised taxes on everybody. It just calls 370 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 2: the terraffs. 371 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 1: Okay, well, that gets us very quickly. We're going to 372 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:15,920 Speaker 1: run out of time. But I do want to ask 373 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:18,360 Speaker 1: you about the China policy. And one of the difficult 374 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: things about pivoting away from Donald Trump's China policy is actually, 375 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 1: and Jason Furman pointed this out on the podcast a 376 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:26,920 Speaker 1: few weeks ago, that you will have those tax revenues 377 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 1: coming in better or worse from Donald Trump's tariffs that 378 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 1: are non negligible and quite hard to just say goodbye to. 379 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:35,680 Speaker 2: True. 380 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 1: So what are you going to do? What is the 381 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:39,440 Speaker 1: China strategy under your plan? 382 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 2: First of all, the idea that it's down to tariffs 383 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 2: is not no disrespect is it's more complicated. On't mean 384 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 2: to say that we're our podcast. It's slightly more than 385 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:51,679 Speaker 2: a thirty seconds answer. There's a couple of things. I 386 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:56,880 Speaker 2: think forty percent of our imports into the country, our 387 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:01,439 Speaker 2: products are going to our own manufacturing capacity. Take the 388 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:05,440 Speaker 2: tariffs off of those, you're actually killing manufacturing jobs, not enhancing. 389 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 2: There's nothing you've done to enhance America's competitiveness on the 390 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 2: industrial base by taxing or putting a tariff on a 391 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 2: product that goes into our own ultimate assembly and manufacturer. Two, 392 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:22,639 Speaker 2: you have to be more strategic, and it relates to China. 393 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 2: It's not just about tariffs. I happen to think what 394 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 2: the President just did is a failed effort. Dealing with 395 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 2: China is both with military, geostrategic, political, and economic understand fundamentally, 396 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 2: which America has been late to the game. The Chinese 397 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 2: Party leadership and President Jip specifically decided in twenty twelve 398 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:47,199 Speaker 2: that America is not a strategic competitor, but a strategic adversary. 399 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 2: They actually do need to do harm to us. I 400 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 2: think President Trump has been naive to think that he 401 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 2: can get along with Putin and g They actually are 402 00:21:56,560 --> 00:22:00,159 Speaker 2: trying to put our head under and he doesn't appreciate that, 403 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:04,439 Speaker 2: understand that, or is responding to the threat level. Third, 404 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:08,359 Speaker 2: both from the universities and science and technology to the 405 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 2: training of a workforce that has to actually have an 406 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 2: education to compete and win at any level. Fourth, investing 407 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,919 Speaker 2: in the capabilities of america twenty first century infrastructure to 408 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:23,479 Speaker 2: move twenty first century economy from data to trucks and 409 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:27,440 Speaker 2: everything between. And then fifth on the tariffs all they 410 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 2: do for you as it relates to China, as we 411 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 2: kind of figure out how to move away is you 412 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:36,920 Speaker 2: have to decide where your choke points are and fundamentally 413 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 2: invest in them. That's what the whole critical minerals and 414 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:44,680 Speaker 2: magnet production is about. That there is take a deep 415 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 2: research look at the supply chain, every choke point that exists, 416 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,399 Speaker 2: understand we're behind, and then invest in it over the 417 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 2: next five years. Now g is upfront about this, don't 418 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 2: be naive, and you have to be understand. He wants 419 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,959 Speaker 2: a dominant China where everybody's dependent on China and China's 420 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 2: independent of everybody else, and we have to move with 421 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:09,199 Speaker 2: a strategy where America is integrated with everybody else and 422 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 2: everybody else is dependent on us. 423 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,119 Speaker 1: We have I mean as a nation actually since the 424 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:16,200 Speaker 1: second Kids administration. I mean that same year that we 425 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 1: had a budget surplus two thousand was also the time 426 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 1: that we were negotiating to have him China into the WTO. 427 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,640 Speaker 1: We have leaned into being deeply dependent on China, much 428 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:30,879 Speaker 1: more dependent than we perhaps needed to be. When you 429 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,440 Speaker 1: talk about extricating it, I think it's Donald Trump's learning. 430 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 1: It's pretty hard to say, oh, we'll get divorced in 431 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 1: ten years time, and I'm really firm about that. But 432 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:39,680 Speaker 1: what we've got to live together in the meantime. 433 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:42,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean, I don't know, you, step, I 434 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 2: know a lot of divorced people that live in the 435 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:44,879 Speaker 2: same house, just separate rooms. 436 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 1: It's also saying, as you just said, that there are 437 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:52,200 Speaker 1: sworn enemy, that they are determined to destroy us. But 438 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 1: by the way, can we have you know, can we 439 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:54,880 Speaker 1: have another bit of mineral earth? 440 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 2: One of the things I learned being ambassador of Japan. 441 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,199 Speaker 2: What they say is not what they mean. You got 442 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 2: to find it. But she tells you the world is 443 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:06,000 Speaker 2: to be dependent on China, and China is to be 444 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 2: free of the world independent. He's very upfront. Now, either 445 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:13,119 Speaker 2: you can say, oh, that's just for domestic consumption or 446 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 2: act as that threat intents. Now, I believe the big 447 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 2: mistake of the last twenty to twenty five years was 448 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 2: allowing business interests to control our national securities related to China. 449 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 2: They were not a voice at the table. They were 450 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 2: the voice at the table, and they should have been 451 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 2: slapped and put in their place. And that was a 452 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:41,160 Speaker 2: huge mistake. And when g said and the Chinese leadership said, 453 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 2: we're going to replace America and we're going to do X, 454 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:48,160 Speaker 2: Y and Z, as it relates to the world's dependence 455 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:52,879 Speaker 2: on China. That's a big opportunity. And when China decides 456 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 2: to crush your steel industry, you're a luminum industry, your 457 00:24:56,080 --> 00:25:00,159 Speaker 2: auto industry. That's an opportunity for America. Come into the 458 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 2: rescue of South Africa, Brazil, Mexico. They are doing things 459 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:08,400 Speaker 2: in their industrial manufacturing because the President g is leaning 460 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 2: so hard on the dominance of manufacturing for its economy 461 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 2: because other parts of it are failing. That's our opportunity. 462 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:20,480 Speaker 1: And that kind of suspicion of globalization, or at least 463 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 1: the globalization that was dominated by the sort of business 464 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,479 Speaker 1: interests of America as opposed to other things. That's going 465 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 1: to outlive President Trump. 466 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 2: Do you think what's gonna be with us for the 467 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:35,119 Speaker 2: next thirty years. Look, globalization was a success if you 468 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:37,359 Speaker 2: had what you and I have and our kids have. 469 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 2: I don't know whether they are kids are okay. I 470 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:43,400 Speaker 2: have three kids. They're the twenties to the armed forces, 471 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:45,120 Speaker 2: et cetera. They all went to good schools and they're 472 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 2: all on their way doing well, et cetera. That was 473 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 2: the success. The opportunities of globalization were not equally shared 474 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,439 Speaker 2: and the risks associated with globalization were not equally shared. 475 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 2: Globalization wasn't a mistake, it's what we didn't do, and 476 00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:01,359 Speaker 2: we were aware of that was the mistake. 477 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,119 Speaker 1: You do sound like and you've made no secret that 478 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 1: you are someone who's thinking about running for president, and 479 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,359 Speaker 1: some would argue that you've already decided. But if there 480 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 1: is a question in your mind, what's your biggest question 481 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,360 Speaker 1: in thinking about running, regardless of whether you know obviously 482 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 1: the primary process will be what it is, But in 483 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 1: terms of actually being a candidate, what's the question that 484 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:20,639 Speaker 1: you need to resolve in your mind. 485 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:25,959 Speaker 2: To those that don't know, Squat, it's not actually a business. 486 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 2: That's a professional decision. It's a very personal decision. I've 487 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,439 Speaker 2: lived a full life. I'm the son and the grandson 488 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,480 Speaker 2: of two immigrants. My kids are now on their way. 489 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 2: They're making their own path, their own journey, their own success, 490 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 2: their own failure, and they're incredibly supportive of me. But 491 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:46,680 Speaker 2: I have to make a decision I run for president. 492 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:48,919 Speaker 2: What does that do to their lives? It's not going 493 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 2: to be the same. So look, I know my professional 494 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 2: I figure that out. How to restore the primacy of 495 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 2: the American dream to the American people. So it's not 496 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:02,199 Speaker 2: just Stephanie and romskits. What does it take? Because I 497 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,320 Speaker 2: think it both has an economic and a political souve. 498 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 2: And then there's a personal thing. And you know, my 499 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 2: greatest teacher was my mother and father, and I take 500 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,200 Speaker 2: being a parent very seriously. I know we're not supposed 501 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 2: to talk about it. 502 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,239 Speaker 1: I know, talking about politicians talking about their kids all 503 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: the time, I wouldn't worry about it. 504 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 2: Oh, I think, yeah, But I've been around them longer 505 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 2: than you have. So that's the decision I'm going to make, 506 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:27,159 Speaker 2: and it's going to something I'm gonna make with my 507 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 2: children and my wife. 508 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 1: If you do run, is your strategy to just not 509 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 1: let anyone else get a word in? 510 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 2: Well, that's that's a habit that's been true for everything 511 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 2: I was trying to image in a debate. I was 512 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,159 Speaker 2: trying to be economical with you, which is why, you 513 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,160 Speaker 2: know Henry Kissingder once said, do you have any questions. 514 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,640 Speaker 1: For my answers? Quite say, rom Emanuel, thank you so. 515 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:49,640 Speaker 2: Much, Thank you very much, appreciate it. 516 00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,639 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Trumponomics from Bloomberg. It was hosted 517 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:01,959 Speaker 1: by me, Stephanie Flanders, and I was joined by the 518 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,360 Speaker 1: former White House Chief of Staff and Mayor of Chicago, 519 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 1: among other things, rahmim Manuel. Trumponomics was produced by Samasadi 520 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,439 Speaker 1: and Moses And with help from Amy Keene, and the 521 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:18,399 Speaker 1: sound design was by Blake Maples and Kelly. Gary Sage. 522 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 1: Bowman is Bloomberg's head of podcasts and please to help 523 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,240 Speaker 1: others find this show, Trumpanomics, please rate it and review 524 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:26,919 Speaker 1: it highly. Wherever you listened,