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Speaker 1: Ridiculous Crime is a production of I Heart Radio. Hiz

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Speaker 1: what up, Elizabeth? Nothing? Um, I wanted to tell you something,

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Speaker 1: but oh my god, thank you. So I'm so glad

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Speaker 1: you noticed. Yeah. I made it myself. I plucked them myself.

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Speaker 1: It's really I can tell the bloodstains. Yeah, you go

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Speaker 1: do something first time. You can't always winning. Uh, do

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Speaker 1: you want to know what's ridiculous? Oh? Yeah, girl, I've

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Speaker 1: been waiting to tell you this. George Washington's death. That's no. No,

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Speaker 1: I know that sounds disrespectful for the nation's first president.

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying that. I'm not making fun of his death,

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Speaker 1: but rather, I'm kind of making fun of the state

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Speaker 1: of medicine at the time, because George Washington went out

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Speaker 1: and did this thing that like my mother and millions

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Speaker 1: of other mothers have told you, which is, don't wear

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Speaker 1: wet clothes or you'll catch your death. We wet clothes. Well,

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Speaker 1: that's essentially what happened to Washington. The story goes, he's out,

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Speaker 1: he's like riding around on horseback and Mount Vernon. It's raining, cats, dogs,

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Speaker 1: and everything else. He rides back to his house for dinner,

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Speaker 1: but he's a hard head like me. He refuses to

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Speaker 1: change out of his wet clothes, like I want to

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Speaker 1: eat my steak wet, right, So he's sitting there, he's

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Speaker 1: doing it. He gets sick, he gets a sore throat.

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Speaker 1: His doctors like, well, clearly we need to drain him

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Speaker 1: of nearly half of his blood, and so they do.

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Speaker 1: They drain him of forty percent of dudes blood. Now

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Speaker 1: drained out, zombie Washington starts circling the drain. Right, he's

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Speaker 1: about to die. Physicians aren't done. They're like, oh, though,

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Speaker 1: this is we need him to gargles butter, molasses and

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Speaker 1: uh looking around, vinegar butter. He's garland, butter, vinegar and molasses.

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Speaker 1: And when that doesn't work, surprise, surprise, doctors are like,

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Speaker 1: you know what it is. We need to feed him beetles.

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Speaker 1: So they feed him beetles, and then, surprisingly, eating beetles

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Speaker 1: does not save the nations for his president. Three days

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Speaker 1: after he gets sick, George Washington up and dies. So

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Speaker 1: my point is, listen to your mother, don't sit around

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Speaker 1: and wet clothes. It's a good, okay, ridiculous, And don't

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Speaker 1: eat beetles. That is ridiculous. Do you want to know

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Speaker 1: what else is ridiculous. I'm here for dedicating your incredible

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Speaker 1: talent to forging, only to be forged. Yes, this is

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Speaker 1: a ridiculous crime. A podcast about absurd and outrageous capers, heists,

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Speaker 1: cons it's always murder free and ridiculous that you know.

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Speaker 1: I love a good art crime because for the most part,

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Speaker 1: they're not violent or destructive. And since I'm convinced that

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Speaker 1: much of the art world is a cover for money laundering,

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Speaker 1: I usually don't feel so bad. I do feel bad.

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Speaker 1: It's like a beloved or famous piece of art that

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Speaker 1: normally lives in a publicly available space is stolen or away. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but if it's like taken away to a Russian oligarchs mansion, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's terrible. Yeah. I don't like for the public to

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Speaker 1: be robb to access to beautiful, important or historical items.

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Speaker 1: We've talked about. Yes, let us keep our cara. But

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Speaker 1: a private collector getting scammed count me in. Yeah. U.

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Speaker 1: One of the great types of art crimes is forgeries. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And did you know that it's estimated that between and

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Speaker 1: of paintings in museums around the world are fakes. Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I actually did that interview the FBI art guy. That's right,

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Speaker 1: you saying that, and that blew my mind when I

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Speaker 1: so pretend I just heard that. Holy wow. So what

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Speaker 1: fascinates me about forgeries is that the perpetrators, they have

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Speaker 1: artistic talent completely, you know, but the artist in their

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Speaker 1: own rights, sometimes their own work just doesn't resonate with

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Speaker 1: the world, or maybe they don't have the right contacts

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Speaker 1: to get recognition sure, or they're still alive. Other times

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Speaker 1: they can basically only work from assignment, you know what

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Speaker 1: I mean, Like, so they can only copy the art. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so they're not true artists. Um, they take direction. Let

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Speaker 1: me tell you about a true artist. He had incredible

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Speaker 1: talent on his own, but he was also an incredible mimic.

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Speaker 1: And after World War Two, this artist went to Paris.

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Speaker 1: One day in Lady Malcolm Campbell was visiting his house

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Speaker 1: and saw an ink drawing on the wall. She said

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Speaker 1: she was certain it was a Picasso and she wanted

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Speaker 1: to buy it, and he didn't tell her that it

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Speaker 1: was his own work. He charged her less than the

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Speaker 1: equivalent of like a hundred bucks for it. Not a

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Speaker 1: bad payday on a drawing for an unknown artist. It

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Speaker 1: pays to have rich friends. Is basically that he pretending

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Speaker 1: like he also didn't know if it was a Picasso.

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Speaker 1: Do we know that he He doesn't say one way,

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Speaker 1: Oh yes, you know, just like like kind of he

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Speaker 1: passes it off as the real thing. But then he

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Speaker 1: realizes that his copycat skills are his real talent. So

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Speaker 1: he's broke, he's struggling, and he's able to make some

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Speaker 1: cash and make someone happy. So it's a win win. Here,

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Speaker 1: she thinks, like I scored, I had this beautiful Picasso drawing.

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Speaker 1: Who was this man, sarin Um. This man was Wilfred Brimley. Yes,

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Speaker 1: his name was Elmir do Hori. I referred to him

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Speaker 1: as I referred to him as elmerd Hori before when

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Speaker 1: I told you about Clifford. But I realized that that's

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Speaker 1: not how you say his name. Um. So he was

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Speaker 1: the artist that Clifford Irving wrote the book about. He

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Speaker 1: wrote a book called Fake exclamation Point, The Story of

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Speaker 1: Elmir de Hori, the Greatest art forger of our Time. Um,

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Speaker 1: I told you oas hoax fake. I told you that

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Speaker 1: Tori was a piece of work and deserved his own episodes.

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Speaker 1: Here it is so I should add that the best

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Speaker 1: information on. This guy comes from Clifford Irving's book. Is

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Speaker 1: it reliable though well to con man making two conman

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Speaker 1: making one great story. It calls into questions the materials

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Speaker 1: presented as fact, but let's just say it is and

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Speaker 1: enjoy the ride. So elm Arta Hori was actually born

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Speaker 1: Elmer Albert Hoffman in Budapest, Hungary, in n six So

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Speaker 1: he liked to tell people that he was from this

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Speaker 1: family of aristocrats like bankers, financiers, top government officials, my mother,

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Speaker 1: the countess. He was actually from a very lovely, very

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Speaker 1: middle class Jewish family, and um, they believed in his talent,

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Speaker 1: so they sent him off for formal training at the

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Speaker 1: nagy Banya Artist Colony. I'm probably not saying that right

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Speaker 1: in Romania when he was only sixteen years old. Ye,

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Speaker 1: based on how you said, I thought it was in Japan,

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Speaker 1: so probably not. I'm totally saying it wrong. I'm sure

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Speaker 1: of it that that's my hidden talent. Um. So then

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Speaker 1: he goes on to study at the Academy Hineman in

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Speaker 1: Munich and then at Academy Lean in Paris, so he

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Speaker 1: gets trained as a classical painter. In these places. There's

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Speaker 1: a problem with that though no one's paying for class card. No,

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Speaker 1: all these new experimental avant garde movements Cubism, Expressionism are

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Speaker 1: all the rage in this kicking it. At that point,

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Speaker 1: most of what he learned is outdated, it's useless, and

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Speaker 1: the art community is just like, why, we don't even

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Speaker 1: care about the focus anymore. So the economy is also

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Speaker 1: taking of time um, and it's starting to look like

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Speaker 1: being an artist just isn't a way for him to

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Speaker 1: make a living. But he's dedicated most of his life

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Speaker 1: to it so far. Enter crime, always Door. Committed a

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Speaker 1: bunch of minor crimes in Geneva in the late twenties

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Speaker 1: and then into the nineteen thirties, just a little petty

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Speaker 1: stuff here and there. And then at the beginning of

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Speaker 1: World War Two he went back to Hungary. Dicey, right,

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Speaker 1: so he picked the other side. Well, he had a

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Speaker 1: friendship there with this British journalist that was believed to

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Speaker 1: be a spy, and so that raised red flags and

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Speaker 1: he gets sent to a prison for political dissidents in Transylvania,

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Speaker 1: and I have my suspicions about why they really sent

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Speaker 1: him there, but more on that later. So while he's there,

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Speaker 1: he paints a portrait of the prison camp officer, and

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Speaker 1: they sparked this friend ship. He's just blown away by

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Speaker 1: his talent. So they eventually released a Hory. But then

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Speaker 1: he gets him prisoned in a concentration camp for being

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Speaker 1: gay and Jewish. And I think that's how he wound

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Speaker 1: up in the Transylvanian prison in the first place. This

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Speaker 1: World War one. He's at the during World War two. Okay, okay,

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Speaker 1: So he gets sent to a concentration camp. He's tortured.

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Speaker 1: They break his leg and then they transfer him because

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Speaker 1: of this like terribly broken leg, they transfer him to

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Speaker 1: a Berlin prison hospital. He escaped because he noticed that

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Speaker 1: the gate entrance to the hospital was open, so he

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Speaker 1: like he's in pain, he grabs some crutches and just

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Speaker 1: makes a break for it. Right, He goes out and

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Speaker 1: he goes to the homeless some of his friends. They

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Speaker 1: take him in and then he makes his way back

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Speaker 1: to Hungary and he learns that his family home has

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Speaker 1: gone and his parents have been killed. It's horrible. So

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Speaker 1: at the end of the of World War two, there's

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Speaker 1: Dory selling fake Picasso sketches because who cares, That's what

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Speaker 1: I say. But when you survive what hes vibe, I say,

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Speaker 1: do whatever you want. He goes to Paris and then

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Speaker 1: he's selling like these fakes. Good. Great, you get to

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Speaker 1: do whatever you want. If you can count some rich

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Speaker 1: person out of a few francs, more power to I

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Speaker 1: don't care. So the thing about Doris fake artwork, though,

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Speaker 1: is that um he didn't try to reproduce existing works.

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Speaker 1: He created new pieces in the style of famous artists.

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Speaker 1: So he created works that did not exist but look

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Speaker 1: like like they exactly. So he knew he was a

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Speaker 1: great mimic. He started selling what he were calling Picasso

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Speaker 1: pieces to art galleries all over Paris. He said that

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Speaker 1: he was a displaced Hungarian aristocrat and he's just trying

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Speaker 1: to survive by selling what was left of his family's estates.

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Speaker 1: This is what my family has left. Or he'd say

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Speaker 1: that he got the Picasso, gave them to me. He

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Speaker 1: was my friend before the war. I just want to

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Speaker 1: I want to sell them. We all hung out. He

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Speaker 1: sold a bunch of them of fakes in Sweden and

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Speaker 1: that gave him enough cash to get a one way

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Speaker 1: ticket to Rio de jannarro In. Say yes, cash out,

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Speaker 1: my brother, he will survive and I love him for that,

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Speaker 1: like he's just he's he cannot hold him down. So

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Speaker 1: he still tried to make it as an artist with

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Speaker 1: his own work. But in the meantime the fakes were

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Speaker 1: like paying the bill for him. So he visits the

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Speaker 1: US on a three month visa. He's able to get

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Speaker 1: a show there at the Lillanfeld Galleries in New York

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Speaker 1: in and that was all his own work. Per Art News,

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Speaker 1: this is what they said, Doris pieces struck quote the

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Speaker 1: well known chord of the School of Paris, which is

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Speaker 1: a way of saying yawn, not into it. He only

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Speaker 1: he sold one piece at the show. Um, like these

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Speaker 1: would be good in a motel, right, So, despite how

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Speaker 1: cruel the New York art world had been to him,

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Speaker 1: he decides to make a go of it there. Um.

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Speaker 1: He overstayed his visa and he lived in the US

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Speaker 1: for the next twelve years, just by a smith. Um.

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Speaker 1: He moved from New York to l A to Chicago

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Speaker 1: to Miami, selling all his forgeries all good art markets

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Speaker 1: and in America, right, he sells to galleries, museums, even

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Speaker 1: major A list celebrities. And by that I mean Ja

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Speaker 1: jacobor yeah girl, He's moved beyond just Picasso sketches into

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Speaker 1: serious works. He created fake originals from Madigliani, Matisse, and Renoir.

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Speaker 1: The Madigliani's are fantastic, by the way, Yeah, they're incredible,

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Speaker 1: They're beautiful. He created so many Madigliani pieces that Kenneth Wayne,

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Speaker 1: the director of the Madigliani Project, had trouble compiling a

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Speaker 1: comprehensive catalog of the artist's work. He's just doing there

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Speaker 1: are too many fakes distort through. So in seven uh

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Speaker 1: Dori he goes to the Pearls Gallery in New York

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Speaker 1: and it's open. It was opened by these brothers, Klaus

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Speaker 1: and Frank. Pearls were these really well known European art dealers.

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Speaker 1: They opened it in nineteen thirty seven and they displayed

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Speaker 1: significantly P. E. R. L S. So they had all

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Speaker 1: these really significant works of contemporary art they really brought out.

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Speaker 1: They kind of helped foster Alexander Calder's work, George brock Brock,

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Speaker 1: and they had all of this. So Dori sold to

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Speaker 1: quote unquote Picassos to Klaus Pearls, and later on in

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Speaker 1: ninety two, he's in l A. Dori is selling his

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Speaker 1: forgeries to galleries. There he ends up walking into the

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Speaker 1: Frank Pearls gallery. So one of the brothers has a

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Speaker 1: gallery in Beverly Hills, and one of the brothers meaning

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Speaker 1: they're related, So Frank, so Frank Pearls. He's really interested

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Speaker 1: in the pieces that Dori has, but he starts noticing

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Speaker 1: that there are similarities between the pieces that it were

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Speaker 1: supposed to be created by different artists. Like he's just

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Speaker 1: seeing these little threads. This is what Clifford Irving said

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Speaker 1: in his book Fake Quote. The longer Pearls looked at

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Speaker 1: the pictures, the more concerned he became. It was clear

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Speaker 1: that something was wrong, and Pearls, worrisome of expression, discomforted Elmir.

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Speaker 1: Pearls questioned Elmir about his address and other detailed personal information,

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Speaker 1: causing Elmir's nervousness to grow. Pearls then calmly placed the

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Speaker 1: pictures back into the portfolio, tied the strings, and then

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Speaker 1: suddenly through the mat at Elmir. Elmir was shocked by

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Speaker 1: the unexpected action and was uncertain what to do next,

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Speaker 1: until Pearls ordered him to get out. To Pearl's surprise,

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Speaker 1: Elmir asked, after being thrown out of the gallery, whether

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Speaker 1: he thought the drawings were well done, Pearls replied, they

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Speaker 1: certainly fooled me for a few minutes before ordering the

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Speaker 1: counterfeiter away again at somehow weirdly heartbreaking that He's like,

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Speaker 1: were they at least good? When he gets tossed out

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Speaker 1: of the gallery, you have more heart than I do

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Speaker 1: in that. To me, that just sounds like, come on, now,

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Speaker 1: what are we doing here? More and more galleries are

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Speaker 1: becoming suspicious because it's like there's little whispers right. So

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Speaker 1: in order to get around this, he comes up with

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Speaker 1: a bunch of aliases and starts doing all of his

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Speaker 1: deals through the mail bad So what are some of

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Speaker 1: his alias's Elmer Hoffman, Lament her Hoffman, Baron de Hory,

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Speaker 1: Hory Cury, Harry Hory, Baron rain All Rain or Rain

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Speaker 1: all Compe, They herd Sog, Baron de Bougaday, Baron von Bay, Elmer, Laslow, Dorey,

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Speaker 1: Dory Bouten, Dory Bouten, Cassue Robert or Cassue, Charles, Louis

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Speaker 1: Curiel or Curiel Charles. He's he's just rolling the dice

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Speaker 1: on these randoms. The awesome. In the mid fifties, he

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Speaker 1: gets busted for the first time, not criminally, but in

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Speaker 1: his world. Um, so he doesn't get tossed out of

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Speaker 1: a gallery, but he gets marked as a con man

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Speaker 1: in the art world. I thought, busted up. No, well,

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Speaker 1: he sold a Matisse supposed Matisse drawing to the fog

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Speaker 1: Museum at Harvard, and when the sale was finalized, he said, oh,

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Speaker 1: you know what, I also if you like those, I've

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Speaker 1: got a Madigliani and a Renoir if you're interested in

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Speaker 1: And they're like, so the curator is like, all right,

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Speaker 1: let me lays him out. He takes She takes a

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Speaker 1: closer look, and then just like Frank, pearls too much

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Speaker 1: of a stylistic similarity between the Batists that should they

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Speaker 1: just purchased and the Madigliani and the ren Walk. So

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Speaker 1: she refuses his offer, and not just that. Then she

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Speaker 1: gets on the phone. She's starts reaching out to all

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Speaker 1: the other museums. Hey, did you recently buy any art

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Speaker 1: from like a smooth talk in European fella going by

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Speaker 1: the name of e Renal. And then with those calls,

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Speaker 1: the word gets out when we come back, I'll tell

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Speaker 1: you how Elmire dealt with this development, Zaren We're back. Hey,

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Speaker 1: you look at us, good ads right by the way,

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Speaker 1: I spent some of your money on this. Yeah, I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna put your purse back in cand in my pocketbook.

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Speaker 1: All right, well we'll see. Uh where where where was

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Speaker 1: I before? We were so rudely interrupted by those phenomenal lots?

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Speaker 1: Had just gotten busted down by those right. So he's

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Speaker 1: selling Elmir do Hori, selling paintings inspired by famous artists,

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Speaker 1: passing them off as designer originals, not designer and fosters.

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Speaker 1: So he gets called out by a curator at Harvard,

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Speaker 1: and now everyone's wise to him. So a Chicago art

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Speaker 1: dealer named James Faulkner, he bought some paintings from door

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Speaker 1: in and then he found out they were fake. So

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Speaker 1: he pressed charges for mail and telephone fraud because remember

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Speaker 1: you said federal lawsuit, right, Um, don't do crime in

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Speaker 1: the U S. Mail, Never stop your CMO. I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure what became of that lawsuit, but he decided to

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Speaker 1: head down Mexico way out of here. He goes to

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Speaker 1: Mexico City. He moves there, but he gets caught up

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Speaker 1: with the cops there too, only this time it was

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Speaker 1: Elmir getting conned because the Mexican police said that they

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Speaker 1: thought he was involved in a man's murder, and he's like,

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Speaker 1: I have I've never met the guy you're talking about.

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Speaker 1: I have no idea that, right, I'm a different kind

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Speaker 1: of crimer. So then the police try and extort him

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Speaker 1: and his lawyer. Door pays his lawyer with one of

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Speaker 1: his paintings, and the Federal him so he's like whatever,

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Speaker 1: I'm out of here. He leaves Mexico City comes back

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Speaker 1: to the United States. When he gets back, he sees

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Speaker 1: that the galleries were selling his forgeries for way more

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Speaker 1: than he sold them for. Now. It just goes to

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Speaker 1: show that the art dealers are willing to look the

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Speaker 1: other way if they can make some money. If everyone

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Speaker 1: kind of there's like the open secret of these aren't real. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they don't want other people to know that. But he's

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Speaker 1: also so Dori seeing this. But he's also a person

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Speaker 1: of interest with the FBI, right, so he tries to

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Speaker 1: lay low. He gets this like really meager apartment in

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Speaker 1: l A. Tries to make a go of it as

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Speaker 1: a legit artist and in order to sell paintings like

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Speaker 1: we had to paint what the people wanted. Um and

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Speaker 1: that meant, according to Clifford Irving's book, mostly paintings of

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Speaker 1: pink poodles for interior decorators. Not what I thought you

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Speaker 1: were going to say, Well, like, what a wild time

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Speaker 1: for interior decord totals? Was the pink poodle the live

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Speaker 1: Laugh love Decalivin's day? Yes, I think so. Yeah. So

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Speaker 1: things got bad in l A. It was a dark

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Speaker 1: time for him, so he decided to move back to

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Speaker 1: New York. According to Clifford Irving to Hoary through a

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Speaker 1: party while living in New York, lavish super edgy stars

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Speaker 1: like Marilyn Monroe show up, this Arthur Miller Monroe. Yes,

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Speaker 1: so she's like she's out there with this kind of

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Speaker 1: like um crowd. Uh. And it was there that he

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Speaker 1: met his future long term accomplice for non Legro, Yes,

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Speaker 1: now legro he Okay, I have to pull up a

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Speaker 1: pickle on His name is fern Lgro like grow the fern. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So for non Legro right, Uh, this is what he

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Speaker 1: looks like, right, He's like, he looks like he's like

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Speaker 1: if Shooter Jennings and Rick Rubin had a kid and

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Speaker 1: and the kids smells like mildew and they let River

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Speaker 1: Phoenix raise him. Yes, it's amazing, So we'll put that

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Speaker 1: picture up. So for non Legro, Legro he's a gay

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Speaker 1: man who married an American woman in order to get

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Speaker 1: US citizenship. He was born in Egypt ninety one, so

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Speaker 1: he's like, you know, thirty years younger than uh elmir uh.

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Speaker 1: So from that moment on, Dehor and Lagro they're inseparable.

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Speaker 1: After they meet at this car, I don't know, I

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00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:46,399
Speaker 1: don't think they were a couple. Umdhri seems like he

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00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:50,440
Speaker 1: was just like his older mentor sort of. Um he's

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00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:53,959
Speaker 1: but anyway, so he's got likedor's got Lagro being all

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Speaker 1: super groovy riding around with him. Good cover is like,

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Speaker 1: you know what, let's move back to Miami. I like

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00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:04,600
Speaker 1: you look, screams Miami. So he convinces him to go

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00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,040
Speaker 1: down there with him and act as his quote unquote

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Speaker 1: agent art agent. So Lagros was like, yeah, you know what,

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Speaker 1: and um, I'll take a cut. That's more than an

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00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:19,080
Speaker 1: agent a little bit, right. So they moved to Miami.

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Speaker 1: They start traveling all over selling these forgeries. Lagro was

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00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:25,600
Speaker 1: the face of the deals and Dhari just kept turning

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00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:29,000
Speaker 1: them out. So um. In Miami, Lagro met a French

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Speaker 1: Canadian teenager named Real Lissard. Yeah, and Lagro and Lessard

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00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:39,160
Speaker 1: they hook up and become lovers. Look, Lessard also becomes

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Speaker 1: an accomplice in this. So now it's Lagro and Lessard

352
00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:44,840
Speaker 1: who are the faces. They're the ones selling the paintings

353
00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:50,320
Speaker 1: swan around the art world. Door creates these fake masterworks

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00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:52,760
Speaker 1: Lagro and Lessard. They're selling them all over the world

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Speaker 1: for like the next thirteen years. Right. They create fake

356
00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:01,359
Speaker 1: stamps of authenticity. Uh. They acquired old art books and

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00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:04,320
Speaker 1: swapped out the pictures of actual works with art of

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Speaker 1: art with the copies of his forgeries. You know. Um,

359
00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:12,000
Speaker 1: when one time Lagro crosses the US border and his

360
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:17,239
Speaker 1: luggage gets inspected and um, customs officers they called an

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00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:20,640
Speaker 1: art experts to verify you know that what these were.

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00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:23,879
Speaker 1: He's telling customs they're just copies there, that's you know.

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Speaker 1: Then the experts look at them and they're like, no,

364
00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:30,720
Speaker 1: these are authentic. So they fool the experts and Lagro

365
00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:34,879
Speaker 1: has to pay attack. So he did. But he wanted

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Speaker 1: that to happen because that got him actual US customs

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00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:44,040
Speaker 1: documentation verifying the optics. Yeah. Yeah, so nineteen nine to

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Speaker 1: Hori is tired of like this loud violently relationship between

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Speaker 1: Lagro and Lasard, like they're just yeah, it's a very

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00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:54,480
Speaker 1: fiery thing. He's not. He's like there for very much.

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Speaker 1: So uh Dri goes back to Europe. He's like, I'm

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Speaker 1: out of here. Who does he run into in Paris?

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00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:07,840
Speaker 1: Lagadah spills a secret to Lagro. He's like, look, I

374
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,600
Speaker 1: still have a collection of fake painting stored in New York.

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Speaker 1: And then Lagro but they're like in this locker you

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00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:15,920
Speaker 1: can't get into. So Lagro figures out how to steal

377
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:19,240
Speaker 1: them and sell them, and then convinces Dhry, like, get

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00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:21,800
Speaker 1: back in the game, start painting, We'll sell them. You

379
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:25,080
Speaker 1: can't help it. So in nineteen six they get back

380
00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:27,919
Speaker 1: into it. In nineteen sixty two, Lagro and Lasard they

381
00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:32,840
Speaker 1: convinced Hori to move to Ibiza. Right, but see Abisa

382
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:38,560
Speaker 1: wasn't the party in vacation destination then that it is now? No,

383
00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:40,880
Speaker 1: not Then At that time it was like a really

384
00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:47,200
Speaker 1: poor rural island. Well it was like a haven for

385
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,760
Speaker 1: artistic exile. So the cost of living was really so

386
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:53,400
Speaker 1: cheap at that point. Yeah, it was like this misfits

387
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:57,119
Speaker 1: art commune. The landscape totally unspoiled because they don't have

388
00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:00,919
Speaker 1: all this like development, living super cheap. Artists and thinkers

389
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:02,840
Speaker 1: who felt like they didn't have a place elsewhere in

390
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:05,960
Speaker 1: the world went there and created a family. Um. It

391
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:09,120
Speaker 1: was also attractive for criminals and con artists to hang

392
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,119
Speaker 1: out because Franco was still in power then, so it

393
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:14,159
Speaker 1: was like a hideaway out of the reach of interpal

394
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 1: So Franco was good for that way. So Lagro and

395
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:23,239
Speaker 1: Leguard they rent Dhri this gorgeous villa Anybisa, but they

396
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:25,280
Speaker 1: put him on a small allowance of about like four

397
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:29,040
Speaker 1: a month to keep him working creating more forged works

398
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:32,040
Speaker 1: of art. It was enough to let him live comfortably

399
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:36,159
Speaker 1: and like also be free of risk. Did they live there, No, No,

400
00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:41,440
Speaker 1: they had this like absolutely lavish life in Paris. Oh yeah,

401
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,440
Speaker 1: they they're living off the money that they're breaking in. Yeah.

402
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,760
Speaker 1: And so Dori he never gained financial independence, but he

403
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,000
Speaker 1: enjoyed the company of this like incredible colorful community. Right.

404
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,080
Speaker 1: Lagro tells a different version of this. He said that

405
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:57,879
Speaker 1: Dare tricked him into believing he was a destitute and

406
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 1: desperate aristocrat needing mercy, and in fact he was a

407
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,040
Speaker 1: con man who was wanted by interpolse this long list

408
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:08,879
Speaker 1: of aliases, all these crimes. Um. According to Lagro, Dori

409
00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:12,920
Speaker 1: was compromised by convictions and expulsions from France, Switzerland, Italy,

410
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 1: Federal Germany, Great Britain, Mexico, US, Canada. I don't believe

411
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 1: you know, so Dori is like no, actually, um, I

412
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 1: made a mistake in taking Lagro into my confidence because

413
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 1: he took advantage of exactly exploited. So nineteen sixty four Door,

414
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,879
Speaker 1: he's fifty eight years old, tired of the forgery business,

415
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:35,399
Speaker 1: his works getting kind of sloppy, hand line is weakening.

416
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:39,159
Speaker 1: And apparently he always looked old, like people said like

417
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:40,639
Speaker 1: there were quotes and people who were just like he

418
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 1: kind of just always looks like an old man. He

419
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 1: was the thoms A Gura of the art world. Well,

420
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:50,440
Speaker 1: in galleries they start alerting inter Poll and Lagro is

421
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:53,639
Speaker 1: like when Interpo did things, Yes, it's like getting a

422
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,879
Speaker 1: little hot. So Lagros sends Doory to Australia for a

423
00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,439
Speaker 1: year to hide out, and then he and Lessard they

424
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 1: go to zero. Let's just be glamorous about this. You

425
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:05,639
Speaker 1: need to go to Demming's New Mexico. We're going to

426
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,719
Speaker 1: go to. They always like send him in the opposite direction.

427
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,119
Speaker 1: So by nineteen sixty six, more and more of the

428
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:15,119
Speaker 1: paintings are proving to be fake. There's an art collector

429
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,240
Speaker 1: who was duped by the trio of them, an oil

430
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:22,200
Speaker 1: tycoon named Alger Meadows of the General American Oil Company,

431
00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:26,159
Speaker 1: and his wife is the one who convinced him to

432
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,680
Speaker 1: start an art collection. Like they were traveling. Yeah, he's

433
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:34,120
Speaker 1: wearing a big cowboy hat like mid century movies. That's

434
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,720
Speaker 1: like the mark in Europe is always the Texan with

435
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 1: oil money and his wife going over there, like they're

436
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 1: in every movie. They start, they start getting French Impressionists

437
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 1: and like post Impressionist paintings. News breaks across the country

438
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,919
Speaker 1: within the art community about the discovery of all the fakes,

439
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:54,480
Speaker 1: and he's like, am I evictim? So Lagro like he's like,

440
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:56,399
Speaker 1: look when Lagros sold him. He's like, these have been

441
00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 1: authenticated by Ziffinispaires. You see this um the Art Dealers

442
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 1: Association of America, they put their hat on, they stepped in.

443
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 1: They looked at fifty eight of the French paintings in

444
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:13,119
Speaker 1: Meadows home in Dallas, and they determined that thirty eight

445
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:17,440
Speaker 1: of them were faked and taste and like most of

446
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 1: the paintings have been purchased from Lagro for about two

447
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 1: million dollars. Right, don't forgetors living on four months in Abisa.

448
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,880
Speaker 1: I knew you were. And it's that hair that hat.

449
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:37,440
Speaker 1: Meadows found out that UM pieces that were in s

450
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 1: m u's Meadows Museum we're also forgeries. Remember Klaus Pearls

451
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 1: Pearls visited the Meadows Museum and saw the master works

452
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 1: on display and that they were actually Doris fakes, and

453
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:56,679
Speaker 1: he proclaimed aloud forgeries altogether forgeries so he could tell Meadows. Um.

454
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,359
Speaker 1: He gave the museum a million dollars to replace the

455
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,639
Speaker 1: fakes and did never tell anyone about like I was,

456
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:04,920
Speaker 1: I was never here. Um. He then was like, you

457
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 1: know what, guys, we're gonna go get this. They want there,

458
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 1: like I'm demanding his arrest and prosecution. So Legro was like,

459
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,879
Speaker 1: so he hides out in the pizza at the villa, right,

460
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:21,879
Speaker 1: but then he says, you know what, I actually I

461
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 1: own this place. You gotta get out of here. He

462
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 1: tries to evict Tory. What in the world is Elmire

463
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 1: going to do when we get back from this break.

464
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:32,640
Speaker 1: I'll let you know which fellow con man came into

465
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 1: his life. He's Aaron. Are you ready to put some

466
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 1: beef in this? Oh my god, I got my hot

467
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:01,879
Speaker 1: beef injector right here. Well we're talking Texas oilman. So

468
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 1: here's the beef. When we laughed off elmir Door, he

469
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:10,200
Speaker 1: was in the crosshairs of beefy Texas oilman. Alger Meadows.

470
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 1: He'd been Meadows duped by Dhris fakes. He wants justice. Lagro.

471
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 1: He's trying to boot do Hori from the lavish villa.

472
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 1: Right that guy Door is living like this interesting life

473
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 1: among the wealthy and eccentric in Ibizza. He's friends with

474
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:34,440
Speaker 1: international movie stars Aristocracy zaren. I want you to picture it.

475
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 1: It's nineteen sixty six. You're at a swinging party on

476
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 1: the vast patio of a villa in Ibizza that overlooks

477
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 1: the blue waters of the Mediterranean. The sun is out.

478
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 1: People are lounging about in groovy swim costumes and calftans

479
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 1: that they picked up in Algiers. Just across the water,

480
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 1: there's a man making fish stew. It's a real party.

481
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 1: I mean there's fish, so you're just they're visiting a friend,

482
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 1: a wealthy failed son lay about that you went to

483
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 1: prep school with. Yeah, I'm double fist and looking for him.

484
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 1: You're also a wealthy lay about fail son. You've decided

485
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 1: to surf your way around the globe all on daddy's time,

486
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 1: So you're cool moondoggye surf buddies. They don't know about

487
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 1: your rich family, and they don't know that you've skipped

488
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 1: off to a Beatsa to see your old pal. So

489
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 1: there you, guys are. You're on this giant patio, sitting

490
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 1: under an umbrella, drinking red wine. You're staring at a

491
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 1: bodacious blonde in a tiny bikini. She's surrounded by a

492
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 1: bunch of men, but she looks terribly bored. You like squint,

493
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 1: and you realize who she is. Ursula andrews, Oh damn right,

494
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 1: So you elbow your friend, but he just like nods

495
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 1: his head slightly. Two of these two other women, one

496
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 1: you recognize right away. That's Marlena Dietrich. She's an aging

497
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 1: beauty at this point still before me. I mean, she's

498
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 1: like a beauty's aging. I thought, you're not beautiful to me.

499
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 1: She's not an aging beauty to me. She's so, ALRL,

500
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:12,440
Speaker 1: what what are you doing here? So she's still performing, right,

501
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 1: but she's plagued by health issues and like the creeping

502
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 1: threat of time aging. Zeren, just admit it. It's okay.

503
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 1: We're all aging, you know, we're all born to die.

504
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 1: Zeron um. So she's reclining on this lounge chair. She's

505
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 1: wearing like a turban with a matching velvet cap. Tan.

506
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 1: You watch she reaches in a pocket and pulls out

507
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:32,720
Speaker 1: a couple of pills and washes him down with champagne.

508
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 1: Oh my girl, hand roll of smoke and watch her

509
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 1: do it again. The other woman looks familiar, but you

510
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 1: can't quite place her. She's blonde, and she's like tan

511
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 1: and sporty. Her laugh is almost musical. And your friend

512
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 1: says that her name is Nina van Pollent. She's a

513
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 1: Danish singer. Okay, okay, okay. So then next next to

514
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 1: Nina is a man. He's wearing like a loose linen

515
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: top that's all unbuttoned. Um. He's reclining on a lounge

516
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 1: chair looking out at the sea. You watch as an

517
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 1: old man approaches him. The old man's a small fellow

518
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 1: with like a cheerful face, but sad eyes. He's decked

519
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 1: out in a cravat and a Kashmere sweater. So all

520
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 1: the fabrics are so luxurious on this patio. So you

521
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 1: try and listen in, but there's too much chatter from

522
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 1: the people around you. And like you ask your friend

523
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 1: who those men are? You're tired of looking at Ursula Andrews.

524
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 1: Who are those men? He's like the guy laying down

525
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 1: as Clifford Irving. He's a writer, that old guy. He's

526
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 1: a painter. Everyone loves him. So you just watched Elmer

527
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 1: Dohr make his last gasp effort looking for help from

528
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 1: someone who would later be a fellow con artist, Clifford.

529
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 1: Here's what Clifford Irving had to say. Quote. At the

530
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 1: time I wrote the book, Elmir was in trouble a

531
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 1: Texas oil tycoon Alger Hurtle Meadows had bought more than

532
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 1: forty paintings from the two villains who were selling Elmir's works.

533
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 1: Meadows donated them to SMU, but first he showed them

534
00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 1: at a Galla party in Dallas. When you can view

535
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 1: Elmire's paintings in a group Matisse, Picasso, Madigliani, etcetera, there's

536
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 1: something more obviously wrong with them than just seeing one

537
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 1: or two, the discerning I can see that the same

538
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 1: hand guided the brush. Paintings disappeared from the walls of

539
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,480
Speaker 1: art galleries and museums and were hurried off to back

540
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 1: rooms and sellers to weather out the storm. Worse, the

541
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 1: French police launched their own investigation into his work. Elmir

542
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 1: was frightened. He came to Miani Beazza and said, I'm

543
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:29,720
Speaker 1: going to tell you who I am and what I've done,

544
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 1: and you'll be shocked. Well I wasn't shocked. I was

545
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 1: surprised and amused. He proposed that I write some magazine

546
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 1: articles in a book that would help him with his

547
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 1: legal fees and give him a nest egg for the

548
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 1: dangerous future. I called my publishers in New York, McGraw hill,

549
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 1: and they snapped it up. So he's gotten McGraw hill

550
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 1: doing his bidding back then, is this kind of really

551
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 1: good writer? Yeah, he's a great writer. So August eight

552
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 1: door he gets convicted by the Spanish court for crimes

553
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 1: of homosexuality not being able to show means of legitimately

554
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 1: supporting himself, which like, that's a crime, and so we've

555
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 1: got to like that that's a crime and consorting with

556
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 1: known criminals, referring to LaGrow. So he gets sentenced to

557
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 1: two months and an Abizsa prison. Why was he not

558
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,959
Speaker 1: charged with forgery? Well, there was no proof he ever

559
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 1: created any of the art in question on Spanish, Soil

560
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 1: was just about to say they didn't find the man

561
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 1: or the studio. Well, and also he denied ever signing

562
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 1: the fakes with the artist's name, which is a key

563
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 1: legal point because it's not a crime to imitate an

564
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 1: artist until you put the name on it, right, So

565
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 1: it's only signing the name that makes it a forgery.

566
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 1: It wasn't possible to prove if the artist signatures that

567
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 1: appeared on the paintings were done by Dori who denied it,

568
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 1: or Lagro. Oh that's an interesting rinkle actually, because you'd

569
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 1: have a really hard time proving it without like either

570
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 1: a confession or somebody saying I watched him do it,

571
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:55,200
Speaker 1: and that exactly so Dori. He gets released from prison

572
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 1: in October of sixty eight and expelled from Abisa for

573
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 1: a year. So by the end of that year he

574
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 1: comes back and he is a celebrity on the island.

575
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 1: They love him. He's already a beloved local character, but

576
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:11,879
Speaker 1: the whole mess makes him an absolute star's phenomenal. Oh yeah,

577
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:13,799
Speaker 1: they're like he got busted. This is great, he's even

578
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 1: more interesting now, Yes, exactly. So this is what Irving

579
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 1: had to say. Many of us artists expats were poor

580
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 1: to varying degrees. And I remember I once asked Elmer

581
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 1: to lend me a hundred dollars, telling him i'd pay

582
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 1: him back when a check from my publisher arrived. He'd

583
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,320
Speaker 1: heard that story so many times before from so many others.

584
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 1: With great reluctance, he loaned the cash to me, and

585
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 1: he was flabbergasted. When I repaid the loan a few

586
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 1: weeks later, tears came to his eyes. That's because he

587
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 1: was always being used. He was gay, and he liked

588
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 1: young men, so he had to pay one way or

589
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 1: another all the time for friendship and love. So here

590
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 1: he's got this great community, but they're always people like

591
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:54,400
Speaker 1: taking a piece of him, and Clifford Irving like they

592
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 1: connect because he's just like there, he's seeing him as

593
00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 1: just a person to person um and outside of out

594
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 1: that I think right. And so here though, so we

595
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 1: have like this troubled time nineteen sixty nine, though, Doory

596
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 1: meets Mark Forgy, who was twenty one, twenty years old.

597
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:10,800
Speaker 1: He meets him on the beach in a bisa, and

598
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 1: the two became very close. Doory taught Forgy about art

599
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 1: and graceful living, just because Dory had taste well and

600
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 1: he had just this incredible, vast knowledge of art history

601
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:27,760
Speaker 1: just as everything with that, the finer things in life exactly,

602
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 1: So he just kind of like leads Forgy. In an

603
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 1: interview with The New York Times, for he was quoted

604
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 1: as saying he was more of a father than my

605
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,360
Speaker 1: actual father. He was concerned with my future. And so

606
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 1: finally he's got someone who's like seeing what he gives

607
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 1: and then giving back. Yeah. So Clifford Irving's book becomes

608
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 1: an eventual success, and in nineteen seventy four it was

609
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,839
Speaker 1: adapted into an Orson Wells movie, f for Fake. No Way,

610
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 1: Yes Way for Fake is a docu drama, So that

611
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:02,400
Speaker 1: means that Dry and Irving actually appear in it. Oh

612
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:04,879
Speaker 1: my god. The whole thing is like a film essay

613
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 1: where Wells muses on the value of art. I've never

614
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,440
Speaker 1: seemed I read a bunch of quotes from this we

615
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:13,840
Speaker 1: need to have our ridiculous crime film Club. Yes, we

616
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:17,360
Speaker 1: do so. In the movie, Dori asks what makes his

617
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 1: work inferior to the works by the artists he was

618
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 1: supposedly inspired by. M His stuff fooled experts worldwide, and

619
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 1: they brought joy to the owners for a fraction of

620
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,360
Speaker 1: the cost of the real thing. But then that's presuming that,

621
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 1: like they enjoyed the art itself and not just the

622
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 1: prestige of owning a name. Yeah, that's that's leaving out

623
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 1: a big part of it. So Wells said that since

624
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:43,280
Speaker 1: most of the art world is based on duplicity, illusion

625
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:48,720
Speaker 1: and trickery, did Dori and his accomplices actually do anything wrong? Well? Wrong,

626
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 1: and these are great, you know, I mean, I know

627
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:54,880
Speaker 1: what art was trying to say. I would say that

628
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:58,399
Speaker 1: if you're intentionally fooling somebody, you know that that is wrong.

629
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 1: But at the same time, the question of how wrong

630
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,239
Speaker 1: is it. You're not really hurting them, And we are

631
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,400
Speaker 1: all constantly being tricked into capitalist society and exploited and

632
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,400
Speaker 1: misled and so forth. So when you start to consider

633
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:11,719
Speaker 1: the full context of where this is occurring, this isn't

634
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 1: like in a kindergarten classroom and one child lie to

635
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:17,880
Speaker 1: another child said this is food. Another kid ate it. Now,

636
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:22,880
Speaker 1: like that would be a bad dropping millions of dollars

637
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 1: on artwork. You're not already kind of dancing with the devil,

638
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 1: like you know, like that it's questionable exactly, And you're

639
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:32,879
Speaker 1: trying to get over on them too. Like on both

640
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:35,400
Speaker 1: sides you have people trying to get over on each other.

641
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:37,319
Speaker 1: So that's why I don't feel too bad. They're trying

642
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 1: to get a deal. They're trying to go like when

643
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 1: they hear like, oh, you've got this Picasso and you've

644
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,239
Speaker 1: fallen on hard times, they're exploiting this person has fallen

645
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 1: on hard time. So it turns out that person also

646
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:50,400
Speaker 1: three one's deluding each other. Everyone's tricking each other. Scorpion

647
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:54,279
Speaker 1: striking a snake. I don't care. So once again, but

648
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:57,240
Speaker 1: now as a celebrity, Dhry tries his hand at earning

649
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,320
Speaker 1: a living as a legitimate artist, and he's now a

650
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:03,319
Speaker 1: recognized figure in the art world and kind of well,

651
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 1: he's like this anti hero in the anti establishing. Yeah,

652
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:10,959
Speaker 1: he fooled everybody. They're loving this, but he wasn't able

653
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 1: to make the money that he was on his own

654
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 1: artwork as he was doing the forgeries. Um. And then

655
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 1: to make matters worse, France is again trying to extradite

656
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:24,400
Speaker 1: him from Spain. So he learns this from Mark Forgy,

657
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 1: and Hori says, I'm gonna overdose on sleeping pills and

658
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 1: he asks Forgy to respect his decision and not revive him.

659
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:35,359
Speaker 1: And so Forgy he didn't want him to die, right,

660
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 1: so um, he takes him to the hospital, but he

661
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 1: dies in Forgy's arms at the hospital. Um. They've been

662
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 1: friends for six years, right, So it's December eleventh, ninety six.

663
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 1: He dies or does he? Wait? What death? His death

664
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:58,440
Speaker 1: is shrouded in mystery. So here's what Clifford Irving had

665
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 1: to say. The story I heard from reliable sources was

666
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 1: that he had concocted a plan with his then boyfriend

667
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 1: to fake his death. Elmir would take an overdose of

668
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:09,880
Speaker 1: sleeping pills at five minutes to ten, and the boyfriend

669
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:11,759
Speaker 1: was supposed to come home at tend sharp to save

670
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,400
Speaker 1: Elmir's life in a timely manner, but he didn't come

671
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:16,840
Speaker 1: back until midnight, and then it was too late. I

672
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 1: do know that Elmir was about to be extradited to France,

673
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:21,880
Speaker 1: and he was fearful that for non Lagrox would have

674
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:24,920
Speaker 1: him killed in prison. I knew Lagro a man with

675
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 1: the scruples of a sewer rat, and he was certainly

676
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:31,239
Speaker 1: capable of murder. Elmir thought that if he nearly committed suicide,

677
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 1: the Spanish authorities would take pity on him and cancel

678
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 1: the extradition to the Beast deal. It was a naive concept.

679
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 1: The Spanish government wanted to get rid of Elmir. They

680
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 1: were fascist, they don't care. So four, he's denying all this,

681
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 1: but there is that strong theory that it was basically

682
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 1: an accidental overdose that he wanted to just use it

683
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 1: as kind of cry for help. Now you can't extradite me.

684
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 1: Why did dehy do? Why did he do what he did?

685
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 1: Why did he get overall, not just with at the

686
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 1: end of his life, but like overall, I mean, it

687
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:03,839
Speaker 1: seems to me that he basically he gets a rough

688
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 1: or unfair start in life in terms of all of

689
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 1: who he is and all of his identities and all

690
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:12,239
Speaker 1: of his his family's existence becomes reasons for him to

691
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 1: be challenged to continue existing. So then he, you know it,

692
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:18,200
Speaker 1: could become a great artist at that point because he

693
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 1: has a lot to say, but instead he needs to survive,

694
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:22,799
Speaker 1: so he learns to become a great imitator rather than

695
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 1: a great artist at that moment. From the point on,

696
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 1: he never really able to find his own voice, but

697
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:29,880
Speaker 1: as as you said, a great mimic, so he becomes

698
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:33,839
Speaker 1: the booth beautiful choir singer ever. But it's not who

699
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 1: do you want acquired? Everyone has their notions of why

700
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:38,880
Speaker 1: he did this, and it's like anyone who hears the

701
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:40,439
Speaker 1: story is going to come up with theirs. And since

702
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 1: we can't ask him, and if we could ask him,

703
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:45,560
Speaker 1: there's no telling if he would tell the truth. Right,

704
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:49,880
Speaker 1: Here's what Forgy said, that's who I believe Elmir was

705
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 1: always attempting mightily to champion the intrinsic merit of art,

706
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 1: as opposed to having a name tag on it. Huh,

707
00:40:56,719 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 1: I don't find that that part. I don't believe. This

708
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 1: is what Clifford Irving said. It's a World War two

709
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 1: refugee mentality, which is what you were saying. He never

710
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 1: thought he'd be rich, but he needed money to survive

711
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:10,920
Speaker 1: and still keep some prideful identity as a painter. Survival

712
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:13,359
Speaker 1: is the name of the game. He justified by naming

713
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:15,840
Speaker 1: all the great artists in history who had copied and faked.

714
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 1: He knew his art history. There were many, and they

715
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:21,239
Speaker 1: were young and poor. They had to eat. So that's

716
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 1: you know, I'm but this is also this is what

717
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 1: something else that Irving said about him. Alas our friendship ended,

718
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:31,400
Speaker 1: many people thought my portrait of Elmir was sympathetic. I

719
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:33,880
Speaker 1: certainly meant it to be. But Elmir didn't like that

720
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 1: I quoted some French dealer calling him quote a charming crook.

721
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,400
Speaker 1: He didn't appreciate that kind of raw truth. The tail

722
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:43,319
Speaker 1: in cold black and White did not flatter him sufficiently.

723
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:46,760
Speaker 1: He demanded I make changes. I refused. He stopped speaking

724
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:50,320
Speaker 1: to me personally. I loved Elmir as a friend, although

725
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 1: I didn't trust him, and I portrayed him as a sophisticated, elegant, intelligent,

726
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:58,160
Speaker 1: sad and exploited man. I understood his plate. He was

727
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:00,399
Speaker 1: one of my first gay friends, and he and talked

728
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:02,840
Speaker 1: about the problems of being an older gay man that

729
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:05,880
Speaker 1: was foreign to me before then. So they have this

730
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:08,239
Speaker 1: really interesting but I can see where he's crafted this

731
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:10,360
Speaker 1: great illusion of who he is, and to cut to

732
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 1: the heart of it. He's a charming crook, is painful

733
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:17,440
Speaker 1: and also it I mean, it seems like dignity is

734
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:19,480
Speaker 1: the thing that he's been hanging onto it from the

735
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:22,360
Speaker 1: point of being in the concentration camp on and that

736
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 1: isn't a direct attack on his dignity. Everything else is

737
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:27,160
Speaker 1: a is an attack on identity and things that are

738
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 1: more elusive and more like debatable in terms of someone

739
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 1: else can have an opinion, but his dignity is his,

740
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:35,800
Speaker 1: and that challenges his sense of who he is and

741
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 1: his his dignity, which is the only thing that seems

742
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:40,239
Speaker 1: to that's the one. Yeah, Because if you craft an

743
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 1: illusion and someone comes after the illusion, you just wipe

744
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:45,759
Speaker 1: away into another. It doesn't matter. So Mark Forgy, he

745
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:48,439
Speaker 1: continues to honor and preserve the memory of his friend

746
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 1: and companion as caretaker of doris legacy. He created an

747
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 1: exhibit of DRI's work at the Hillstrom Museum of Art

748
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:59,840
Speaker 1: in St. Peter, Minnesota, UH. He wrote a memoir for

749
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:02,880
Speaker 1: he did called The Forger's Apprentice, Life with the World's

750
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:05,879
Speaker 1: most Notorious Artist, and that was adapted into a play

751
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:09,920
Speaker 1: and then a musical which is amazing. And then art

752
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:16,320
Speaker 1: exhibits exist today specifically showcasing forgeries, and Forgy lends Dory

753
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 1: pieces to those. Um here's an incredible end cap for

754
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:22,800
Speaker 1: this story. Forgy at one point learned that there was

755
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:29,520
Speaker 1: a business of forging forgeries, so paintings by Dory listed

756
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:32,880
Speaker 1: at a New Zealand auction house had to be taken

757
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:36,319
Speaker 1: down after it was discovered that the pieces were forgeries

758
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:43,840
Speaker 1: of Doris forgeries. The forgery the Forger. Well, and it

759
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 1: doesn't help too that his partner's name is Forgy, and

760
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:52,239
Speaker 1: I'm like stumbling around, so Forgy, the whole situation is

761
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:55,759
Speaker 1: very Forgy. Forgy said the topic quote came up only

762
00:43:55,840 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 1: one time in conversation Forger Studio doing an impress. He said,

763
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:04,600
Speaker 1: quote we both contemplated that for a moment and then

764
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:08,319
Speaker 1: laughed at the far fetched notion. Yeah, well, so auctioneer

765
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:11,840
Speaker 1: Andrew Griggs said, quote, we were astonished to find that

766
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:15,239
Speaker 1: there was a market in faking Faker's artwork, going on

767
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 1: to say that he'll be sure to alert others in

768
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:19,799
Speaker 1: the industry of the Khan. The paintings that were thought

769
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 1: to be Doris works were actually painted by Ken Talbot,

770
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 1: a London bookmaker. This is what Clifford had to say

771
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:31,360
Speaker 1: about Ken Talbot. Quote. Ken Talbot was a London crook

772
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:35,960
Speaker 1: and a bookmaker who in reproduced and published my nineteen

773
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:41,239
Speaker 1: sixty eight biography Fake, calling it Enigma. His hardback edition

774
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:44,439
Speaker 1: includes a quote preface by Clifford Irving, not a word

775
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 1: of which I wrote, like they're all getting a piece

776
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 1: of theirs come back to them, Bitter Medicine, an introduction

777
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:54,160
Speaker 1: by Talbot himself that is mostly half truths and lies,

778
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 1: and a center color section of supposed Dory paintings that

779
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:03,759
Speaker 1: Talbot busily tried to sell as genuine Tory fakes of Matisse, Picasso, Madigliani.

780
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 1: At all. I have no idea who painted them. Talbot

781
00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:09,520
Speaker 1: was a dangerous man, and if he were still alive,

782
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 1: I wouldn't dare write these comments I gave this. I

783
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:15,919
Speaker 1: give this eighty dollar book a second star only because

784
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 1: it included my text that of the original Fake is

785
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:23,160
Speaker 1: worth reading. Fake is for sale at five on Kindle

786
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 1: and Nook. It's worth two stars because because my stuff

787
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 1: sent it, by the way, by mine for five Kindle.

788
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:32,719
Speaker 1: I love the forgeries of a forgery. I mean this

789
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:35,359
Speaker 1: is like when I do an impression of your doing

790
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:37,960
Speaker 1: an impression of your brother doing an impression of Steve Harvey.

791
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:45,759
Speaker 1: It is it's like, it's this like, it's like it's

792
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 1: just as wrong. So here's a good take on it.

793
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:53,160
Speaker 1: This is what reporter David Holzer of the Budapest Business

794
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:58,120
Speaker 1: Journal had. The same. Hungarians delight in listing the admittedly

795
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:01,360
Speaker 1: startling number of their countrymen and women who have soared

796
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:03,800
Speaker 1: the heights of excellence in the world outside the country.

797
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:09,560
Speaker 1: Quite rightly, Dori exemplifies another kind of Hungarian genius, one

798
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 1: that makes his skill cunning and the survival instinct to

799
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:15,359
Speaker 1: make life tap dance to the tune only you here.

800
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 1: This quality is best summed up in an expression taught

801
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:21,279
Speaker 1: to me by none other than Robin Marshall, editor of

802
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 1: this newspaper. Hungarian is the only person who can go

803
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:28,400
Speaker 1: into a revolving door behind you and come out ahead

804
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:32,600
Speaker 1: of you, he once told me, though he takes no

805
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 1: credit for having come up with the idea. For most

806
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 1: of his life, Elmir dehor came out of that revolving

807
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 1: door well ahead of those who thought they had got

808
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 1: one up on him, until well he didn't. Maybe it's

809
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:50,600
Speaker 1: believed that door still has hundreds of thousands of forgeries

810
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:53,440
Speaker 1: all over the The grand total of his sales has

811
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 1: approximated at like fifty million dollars. Damn, what's your ridiculous

812
00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:04,280
Speaker 1: takeaway on the reel? My ridiculous takeaways? I hate Lagro

813
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:07,279
Speaker 1: but yeah, I mean you saw my instinct on him

814
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 1: the entire time. But on the reel, I think it's

815
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:14,440
Speaker 1: a darn shame that that, you know, like icon of

816
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:18,000
Speaker 1: clastic bone vivant types, can't just hang out with the rich.

817
00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:20,239
Speaker 1: You want to have this interesting stuff and just do it,

818
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:22,000
Speaker 1: Like why the rich have to get mad? Like, come on,

819
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:24,359
Speaker 1: you exploited people and you guys always get so mad

820
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:27,560
Speaker 1: when these people turn out to be Charlatan's you want,

821
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:31,879
Speaker 1: and doesn't make an even greater story that now you've

822
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:34,279
Speaker 1: got a door. Look, I got duped and then I

823
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 1: don't know, I feel like there's some notoriety I do

824
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:40,560
Speaker 1: like having a like wanting to have the best forger's forgery,

825
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:42,800
Speaker 1: like having a door. I think that is really I

826
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:44,759
Speaker 1: would love to have a doughter and see if I

827
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:46,680
Speaker 1: can get you one, and if I can't get someone

828
00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:49,240
Speaker 1: to paint one, so that you can paint a door,

829
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:51,680
Speaker 1: you can paint a what was the other guy's name,

830
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:56,600
Speaker 1: Ken Talbot Talbot Talbot of of Madigliani. Excellent, And that's

831
00:47:56,600 --> 00:48:01,360
Speaker 1: actually a picture of Steve Harvey. That's that's my tale

832
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 1: of Elmir door. That's it. That's it. Um. What's your

833
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:08,839
Speaker 1: ridiculous takeaway on Elizabeth? Oh, I think I've exposed all

834
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 1: of that, and my ridiculous takeaway, thank you, is that

835
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:17,440
Speaker 1: I do want I want an Elmir Dori what I want? Uh?

836
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:19,920
Speaker 1: You can find us online at Ridiculous Crime on both

837
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:22,279
Speaker 1: Twitter for the talk and Instagram for the gawk, and

838
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 1: email us at ridiculous Crime at gmail dot com if

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Speaker 1: you'd like, download the I Heart app if you want

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Speaker 1: to leave us something called a talk back. It's like

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00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:34,320
Speaker 1: a thirty second voicemail that we can't respond to. But

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00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:37,120
Speaker 1: you know, we may play it on here an active

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Speaker 1: revenge or I'll forge one, I'll mimic it. Tune in

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Speaker 1: next time. Ridiculous Crime is hosted by Elizabeth Dutton and

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Speaker 1: Zaren Burnett, produced and edited by mayor of Beizza, Dave Kusten.

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00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 1: Research is by Exhausted authenticators Marissa Brown and Andrea Song

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00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 1: sharpen Tier. The themes song is by Thomas fo Digliani,

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00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:07,080
Speaker 1: Lee and Travis Picasso. Fake Donte executive producers are co

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Speaker 1: directors of the FBI Art Crime Unit, Ben Boland and

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00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:20,160
Speaker 1: Noel Brown Ride Say It one More Time, We Dequeous.

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Speaker 1: Ridiculous Crime is a production of I Heart Radio. For

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00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 1: more podcasts to my heart Radio, visit the i heeart

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00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:29,400
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your

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Speaker 1: favorite shows.