Speaker 1: This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,
Speaker 1: bug bitten and in my case, underwear. Listening Hunt podcast,
Speaker 1: you can't predict anything presented by First Light, creating proven
Speaker 1: versatile hunting apparel from Marino bass layers to technical outerwear.
Speaker 1: For every Hunt, First Light, go farther, stay longer. All right, everybody,
Speaker 1: we've got a great episode for you today. We're joined
Speaker 1: right now by Yanni cal Seth Jester, Seth Night here,
Speaker 1: Seth Night here. Good in the special guests, Uh, John Miller. Now,
Speaker 1: we're gonna play you a titilating little clip here just
Speaker 1: to get utitilated. I used it twice in one sentence
Speaker 1: to the late tittilating clip to get you titilated. Tittilate
Speaker 1: and Phil, we came down this path right here, saw
Speaker 1: and two cubs cans rolling across tax I put a
Speaker 1: three in wind meg in the bear's back on top.
Speaker 1: He shoots a pistol round ten. Mill comes to me.
Speaker 1: It starts making this way after what six rounds in
Speaker 1: it it does there. That was the voice of our guest,
Speaker 1: John Miller, and engineer who's interesting for two reasons. One
Speaker 1: he's involved in this is just this hunting season. Right,
Speaker 1: it was saved a friend of his who was getting
Speaker 1: mauled by a bear hunting Wyoming. Um, and here's the
Speaker 1: only reason you're interesting your friends with my friend from
Speaker 1: growing up, Matt Mallard. Yeah, it's a weird coincidence. He
Speaker 1: he he's probably he's in a weird spot when he
Speaker 1: gets asked what he does. Why is that? Because I
Speaker 1: hate talking about the brother while he's not here. If
Speaker 1: you're engineering a part and you need to know how
Speaker 1: it's going to hold up over thousands of hours of
Speaker 1: use and abuse. He makes equipment didn't mimics abuse like
Speaker 1: automotive aerospace makes equipment that mimics the abuse. So you
Speaker 1: can put the part in a room, turn the abuser
Speaker 1: machine on and vibrated at certain frequencies, and then watch
Speaker 1: what will happen. Right, that's correct. That's actually how we
Speaker 1: know each other. We work in the same industry, vibration technologies.
Speaker 1: We're My company is a little more general. But yes,
Speaker 1: whose company is better? Oh? Of course mine? Ill I'll
Speaker 1: you know, I always like Matt Mallard a lot growing up.
Speaker 1: And um, you know how later in life you look
Speaker 1: back on dudes from growing up and you sort of
Speaker 1: have realizations about them that you didn't at the time
Speaker 1: used to like a nice guy, I'm telling you, And
Speaker 1: I can't say this about myself, and I can't say
Speaker 1: to what most people if I review, I don't think
Speaker 1: that that man ever uttered a negative word about anybody.
Speaker 1: And to say that coming out of junior high and
Speaker 1: high school, that's impressive. Just an honorable guy, certainly. UM
Speaker 1: he's the one who introduced us, right he is. Shout out,
Speaker 1: ma'am Millard. If you want to find out what some
Speaker 1: of your ship's gonna do and it vibrates real bad,
Speaker 1: call Matt. He'll build a machine for you. Do you
Speaker 1: want to say what company you work for to plug it? D?
Speaker 1: Why not? What is it? Did you go to the
Speaker 1: same school mat went to? I did not, So did
Speaker 1: you study engineering? I studied in South Dakota State my
Speaker 1: undergrad and then UH. I got my graduate degree in
Speaker 1: University of Minnesota UM. But the company I worked for
Speaker 1: is UH do we soft so we make test equipment
Speaker 1: for all sorts of UM R and D, specifically in
Speaker 1: the automotive, airspace and UH defense, power and energy type markets.
Speaker 1: Did you when you went to graduate school as you
Speaker 1: get a master's degree or a PhD. I got a
Speaker 1: master's degree. Yeah. Usually if you get the PhD, you
Speaker 1: kind of end up there forever and him to be
Speaker 1: calling you Dr Miller right now. Okay, before we get
Speaker 1: back to this, uh real interesting hunting story. UM, I
Speaker 1: got a couple things to cover off on once Chester. No,
Speaker 1: sess not here right now, but I was gonna there's
Speaker 1: something I want to like. Oh, call call, you know
Speaker 1: what call set up? Is he available? Yeah? He's available?
Speaker 1: Should I throw him on speaker phone? Guys want to
Speaker 1: tell him something? All right? This is about Seth upcoming
Speaker 1: wedding Chester, Seth. Can you hear me? Steve? You know
Speaker 1: how I got to become I need to become a
Speaker 1: minister to to do your wedding. Yeah, I was reading
Speaker 1: up on that. It's real easy. Um. I can't remember
Speaker 1: the name of the church, but it's like some church
Speaker 1: out of Seattle. I'll become ordained. It takes about three seconds.
Speaker 1: But you know what I was reading in Montana? You
Speaker 1: can actually get because you know how you and Chester
Speaker 1: have this problem where you can't do the walleye tournament.
Speaker 1: Well we can't do that one? You can? You can?
Speaker 1: You Montana is one of two states where you can
Speaker 1: have a proxy stand in for you at your wedding.
Speaker 1: I'm serious. In Montana you can have a proxy stand
Speaker 1: in for you at I could do you and Chester
Speaker 1: can fish. I can like officiate and stand proxy. Wow,
Speaker 1: or do you just have cold be there because it's
Speaker 1: like cal stand proxy. I wouldn't be bouncing back and
Speaker 1: forth a whole bunch. Yeah, you just let me know
Speaker 1: where to put my hands. I'll do the rest. Hey, Steve,
Speaker 1: why don't you tell me this like three weeks but
Speaker 1: I actually got married? It is Oh, you got married
Speaker 1: in Montana three ds ago. You could have done it
Speaker 1: by proxy. I could have went fishing. So Seth, you're
Speaker 1: back on um. And this is just a shot out
Speaker 1: because I know that as we try to court a
Speaker 1: boat a boat sponsor for you guys, a lot of
Speaker 1: boat sponsors might be like, yeah, well they're not fishing
Speaker 1: all the tournaments because what he's got to go to
Speaker 1: that wedding. Now, I think boat sponsors are going to
Speaker 1: be perked right up knowing that you, in fact, will
Speaker 1: be able to hit all tournaments perfect man. And I'm
Speaker 1: sure Kelsey will have no problem with this whatsoever. Yeah,
Speaker 1: ask her about who she wants to proxy. Um, alright,
Speaker 1: for you, I'll do it. I don't okay, Ill said
Speaker 1: he'll do it. Whatever, figure it out. That's when you
Speaker 1: know you work with a good group of guys, is
Speaker 1: when they'll stand in for you at your wedding. It's
Speaker 1: problem solving. It's a perk here. It's a perk when
Speaker 1: you come into get employment here. So good luck, rest
Speaker 1: easy now on the Walleye tournament. Everything's in shape, awesome, Well,
Speaker 1: thank you guys, really appreciate it. No problem, man, my
Speaker 1: pleasure later seth Uh. Oh, here's the thing. So our
Speaker 1: season ten on Netflix, which launched in two chunks February second,
Speaker 1: part two. A bunch more episodes coming up February second. Uh.
Speaker 1: Spear fishing, I mean Caligro spear fishing with Kimmy Werner.
Speaker 1: Um that that was one of my favorites. Man, That
Speaker 1: was a very turned out to be a very good episode.
Speaker 1: Go Hunt in Hawaii. Uh, shooting bows at goats. Feral
Speaker 1: goats looks a lot like a goat you'd find in
Speaker 1: your farm barnyard. But they're they're just running around? Were
Speaker 1: they too? Are they tough to kill? What else is
Speaker 1: in there. It's just there's just so many of them.
Speaker 1: Any individual one is but when like any and if
Speaker 1: I said, like, oh go get that one out there,
Speaker 1: you might find that to be extraordinarily difficult. But it's
Speaker 1: like once bump, that one just turned slightly to the right,
Speaker 1: and here comes another three, you know, I mean, it's
Speaker 1: just like it's just mean we at all do they smell?
Speaker 1: Yet each individual one seems to be slightly varying degrees
Speaker 1: of wariness. There's just so many, and they're not all
Speaker 1: doing the same thing, and they're not hip to your
Speaker 1: effective range. So like they have great eyesight, they can
Speaker 1: see you, but they also are aware of how close
Speaker 1: other dangerous things get to them. And I believe the
Speaker 1: most dangerous thing out there is a vehicle going sixty
Speaker 1: and then one of the things like you imagine a
Speaker 1: herd out They all are sort of operating on the
Speaker 1: same information, meaning like if you went into an area,
Speaker 1: if you go into an area and like you know,
Speaker 1: spooked the bijeebas out of like a pack of cows,
Speaker 1: it's not like the ones over fifty. It's a way
Speaker 1: they're probably gonna go leave too, but they're not on
Speaker 1: that program, and some might be like grazing north, but
Speaker 1: they're sort of passing a group that's grazing south. It
Speaker 1: just it doesn't It's just it's there are so many
Speaker 1: of them. Um. I think we even talked about this,
Speaker 1: I think now and then. Didn't they in the past
Speaker 1: cal do a thing and drove a bunch of them
Speaker 1: into the ocean? This sounds horrible and despicable, but if
Speaker 1: you were to get an idea of how many, you
Speaker 1: quickly see how many goats there are out there and
Speaker 1: how and if somebody were to say, like, do you
Speaker 1: think these could out eat the cattle on the ground,
Speaker 1: then you're the wheels would start turning as to why
Speaker 1: that's an issue. And I've heard this from a number
Speaker 1: of different sources, so I think in some regards it
Speaker 1: has to be true where a means of culling would
Speaker 1: be to get a bunch of folks together and do
Speaker 1: a big push goat jump they call it, and get
Speaker 1: them down to the cliffs above the sea and try
Speaker 1: to push the goats into the sea. I gotta point
Speaker 1: out too, that there's a lot of people pounding it
Speaker 1: out on public ground in Hawaii, and it's probably not
Speaker 1: the case. But we're on a private ranch where they
Speaker 1: want to get rid of goats. But it's not like
Speaker 1: you can't just pull over and start, you know, go on,
Speaker 1: there's a real it's because I asked Jimmy about this
Speaker 1: a bunch because down on the Captain Cook site, UM,
Speaker 1: that state park there, they um had to cull some
Speaker 1: goats and they had a lottery for people to just
Speaker 1: come pick up a goat to take to take home,
Speaker 1: just to get a dead goat and bring it home
Speaker 1: or a live goat live or dad, I believe um.
Speaker 1: And I was like, is anybody going to participate in this?
Speaker 1: And she was like, yeah, everybody's about like the easiest
Speaker 1: goat meat. But for some reason, it's like if somebody's
Speaker 1: gonna go head out into the tall jungle grass with
Speaker 1: their archery equipment, they don't want to go after a goat.
Speaker 1: They want to go after a sheep or access to her.
Speaker 1: You know, wherever they are depending hunting farm animals. But
Speaker 1: pretty much exceptionally take those places in Hawaii and there's
Speaker 1: place and why were there hunting? Um, you can hunt
Speaker 1: feral cattle freezer. There were so many of them while
Speaker 1: you guys were out hunting. I was just seeing how
Speaker 1: close I could sneak up to him. Yeah, I'm just
Speaker 1: for funzies. Yeah. So Netflix February two, Oh Grant pointed
Speaker 1: out too, it's also Groundhog Day that day, but they're
Speaker 1: changing the national holiday and meeting or Season ten Part
Speaker 1: two day. They're gonna make a Bill Murray movie called that.
Speaker 1: Um here's another thing. Man struck me like a diamond bullet. Uh,
Speaker 1: next year's calendar and and you know, and we sold
Speaker 1: a mountain of funked up old tree stands calendars. Picture
Speaker 1: this funked up old taxidermy. That's Part two. A lot
Speaker 1: of material there. We already got the website, we already
Speaker 1: got the email address set up. So here's what. Here's
Speaker 1: what we're not doing, much to Karne's chagrin, Krin is
Speaker 1: into and it's just like it's just karn is into
Speaker 1: the type of tax dremy where people make like, like, uh,
Speaker 1: Harry Potter type stuff. Yea. Like when I say, if
Speaker 1: I hear the word taxing, which is the thing that
Speaker 1: comes to my mind, which is like getting your buck
Speaker 1: stuffed so you hang it onto your wall. You're hunting lodge,
Speaker 1: what comes to Krin's mind is a griffin. It's just
Speaker 1: like the you know, uh panda with a pheas his head.
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's just like where her mind. That's her.
Speaker 1: This is not this calendar. Maybe we'll give in the
Speaker 1: back on the back page, we can give a page
Speaker 1: with a bunch of things to satisfy cringe needs, and
Speaker 1: she can just leave hers open to that page all year.
Speaker 1: It'll be a bunch of these things people make, like
Speaker 1: a bunch of things people make to ourn't animals. But
Speaker 1: we're looking for like pictures of legitimate like the worst
Speaker 1: tax dury on the planet. I have a private museum
Speaker 1: that I've told you about in Idaho that we can
Speaker 1: go do a photo shoot and that it is like
Speaker 1: just pulling up right now. Don't send in the ones
Speaker 1: that are already circulating the internet. No, these need to
Speaker 1: be original, they can't be a favorite. Sets sent one
Speaker 1: in the idea it was like some guy had it
Speaker 1: up was like the worst coyote you've ever seen. The
Speaker 1: caption on Instagram with sir, your Kyle is ready for
Speaker 1: pick up. Hey, you know there's a really good one
Speaker 1: where we're going to be next week. That's like I
Speaker 1: desperately want to go, Yeah, we have the worst mountain
Speaker 1: lion mount you've ever seen, um bad. And then yeah,
Speaker 1: that's the crane that's right up Cran's alley. I feel
Speaker 1: like that's off that Christmas movie, Ye little kids Christmas movie.
Speaker 1: So the emails, Oh you know who's got an go
Speaker 1: Matt Cook those weasels he's got on his fireplace, mantle
Speaker 1: contenders Navy. Here's what you might need to do, though,
Speaker 1: I think like, send what you got, and what might
Speaker 1: happen is if it's if it's appropriate. When we make
Speaker 1: our selections, we might either if possible, we might and
Speaker 1: we'll pay for all this. We might box, we might
Speaker 1: have you like we'll pay for shipping, but we might
Speaker 1: have you package your stuff to send us to photograph.
Speaker 1: But just start making your submissions now, because that's got
Speaker 1: nothing to do. Um. You can send them to fucked
Speaker 1: Up Old Taxidermy at the meat eater dot com, or
Speaker 1: if you're a kid and you're not allowed to swear yet,
Speaker 1: send it to f you oh at the mediator dot com.
Speaker 1: So message to my kids. If you submit, you better
Speaker 1: submit under f U O T at the meat eater
Speaker 1: dot com and not the other version and we will
Speaker 1: start digging through. But your worst old like I'm talking
Speaker 1: Grandpa's old deer with the newspaper print sticking out of
Speaker 1: his ear, bad taxidermy great calendar, a lot of audience blowback, Brodie,
Speaker 1: you better speak to this. Uh, my opinion hasn't changed
Speaker 1: based on the blowback. So Brodie doesn't even remember saying
Speaker 1: because that's how much how how I just don't think
Speaker 1: it's important. But obviously some people really love their Golden Retrievers.
Speaker 1: And Brody said they're the dumbest dogs in the world,
Speaker 1: and he got he might as well have said that
Speaker 1: he like, Um, I don't know, like beat up mother Teresa, yep, exactly. Anyway, Um,
Speaker 1: people really love their Golden Retrievers. They're not and and
Speaker 1: and they're not the dumbest dogs ever, according to all
Speaker 1: these people that wrote into us. Um. Here's a quote
Speaker 1: here from a listener named Pat who's a pheasant hunter,
Speaker 1: and he ends with an invite to go pheasant hunting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I might take him up on it. At the end
Speaker 1: of that trip he takes his spot. You gotta be
Speaker 1: like that dog really is dumb Um, that really is
Speaker 1: the dumbest dog I've ever seen. Uh So for the correction,
Speaker 1: he says, my dog's name is Tucker, and he's a
Speaker 1: four year old Golden Retriever. He is not only a
Speaker 1: phenomenal hunting dog, he's also the best family dog I
Speaker 1: have ever had, which you know, family dog, I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't disagree with that. I gotta see the dog
Speaker 1: hunt first though. Um. He is with me seven and
Speaker 1: also enjoys the podcast. He's a damn smart lab the podcast. Um.
Speaker 1: He can have his dumb moments like all animals, but
Speaker 1: when it comes to work, Golden Retrievers are not the
Speaker 1: dumbest animal in the world. Yeah, invited out of the
Speaker 1: North Dakota, which isn't terribly far away. Who wasn't trying
Speaker 1: to fend you fat Pat or any other Golden retriever
Speaker 1: Well Krin said some people were likely actually legitimately mad.
Speaker 1: People get worked up about dogs, and you got to
Speaker 1: keep in mind when you're an angry Golden Retriever owner,
Speaker 1: you have hours and hours of brushing birds out of
Speaker 1: their hair with you this stuff. Here's a mad email
Speaker 1: we got. Okay, but here's the thing. The guy's got
Speaker 1: a tone of like the guy's got points he's got
Speaker 1: legitimate points. This guy is mad about our and we've
Speaker 1: see here's the thing Americ like. You know, I heard
Speaker 1: a really funny joke one time. Um, A TV executive
Speaker 1: once said to me, I think he's the guy from
Speaker 1: History Channel. Yeah, guy from History Channel once said to me.
Speaker 1: The only other country our audiences in arrested in is Alaska.
Speaker 1: But Europe is a big old place. Okay, Europe is
Speaker 1: a big old place full. You know, how are you
Speaker 1: countries in Europe? Bunch, it's continent. They got them packed
Speaker 1: in way tighter. US Americans don't know the answer to that.
Speaker 1: But they pack in countries like we pack in states.
Speaker 1: And they all got their own little governments, cute little garments,
Speaker 1: all their free this and free that somewhere care uh
Speaker 1: So we're always talking about what goes on in Europe
Speaker 1: as though it's like a place and our credit. We
Speaker 1: have mused, we have mused about finding a sort of
Speaker 1: pan European hunting authority who would come in and be like,
Speaker 1: here's the lay of the land, the same way someone
Speaker 1: might come in and do a seminar on the differences
Speaker 1: in the way the fifty States, the fifty U s
Speaker 1: States the differences in how they manage, like from management approaches. Right,
Speaker 1: you got like this, you can actually still you know,
Speaker 1: set a bear trap in Maine. You know, you can
Speaker 1: ventce your deer in in Texas and like walks through
Speaker 1: Like here's how they're all different, but here's all they're
Speaker 1: the same. Different. We've mused about this. Yanni is actually
Speaker 1: going to Latvia to do an investigative dig deep on
Speaker 1: lavian hunting. So we're trying to get educated, well at
Speaker 1: least know how one of the hunting in Europe goes down. Okay,
Speaker 1: so letter goes like this, Hey, Steve, you can start
Speaker 1: making that noise you use to describe people who hears
Speaker 1: something on your podcast, then rite to you to say
Speaker 1: you're full of ship that annoying. No, no, no, I
Speaker 1: think it's not that. It's not no, no, no no, it's this.
Speaker 1: So you'd have to replace the ends with d s
Speaker 1: because in this case, you are full of ship, he says,
Speaker 1: and you're see this is Here's the thing is, I
Speaker 1: got this email a long time ago and I just
Speaker 1: didn't get to it and then it was resent to me.
Speaker 1: So this sent is resent to me yesterday, just like
Speaker 1: a heads up, like a follow up on its anniverse.
Speaker 1: It was the anniversary of the original scent. But it's
Speaker 1: all fair stuff, you said. In your recent podcast covering
Speaker 1: the flooding in South Dakota and the challenges that presents
Speaker 1: to sort out the legal issues of access, both you
Speaker 1: and Callahan blurted out righteous intonation at the concept of
Speaker 1: landowners setting bag limits for fish in the water they
Speaker 1: own quote own. We're talking about these floods in North
Speaker 1: Dakota and South Dakota that like you think of a
Speaker 1: flood like goes up and comes back down, but these
Speaker 1: are floods that stayed. So in this old podcast episode,
Speaker 1: maybe maybe you can find it and tell us what
Speaker 1: it was called. That was one where we had a
Speaker 1: guy on that blew was trying to jump up out
Speaker 1: of his layout B line. Oh yeah, and blew two
Speaker 1: of his toes off, and you think helew the edges off,
Speaker 1: but he blew the middle toes out. Yeah, great guy.
Speaker 1: It happened so fast he still shot at the goose.
Speaker 1: But during shooting at the goose he realized what had
Speaker 1: happened and didn't know if he even hit the goose.
Speaker 1: He like blew his toes out, shot at the geese
Speaker 1: then was like, oh, just blew my toes out. I
Speaker 1: think said his foot fell hot or something. Let me
Speaker 1: laugh at the brother. Well he was laughing about it,
Speaker 1: but his foot looks funny. I think we put it
Speaker 1: on your Instagram. Was this hunting the anthroposyne? Yes, So anyways,
Speaker 1: you got farmers who or whatever. You have landowners whose
Speaker 1: land is now under a lake, and so like state
Speaker 1: managed fish swim over your land and it's covered in water,
Speaker 1: and and these are lakes that used to exist, but
Speaker 1: they've they've taken over farm So there's there's this dispute
Speaker 1: like can a farmer go? And what's going to really
Speaker 1: confuse was we also just talked about the same thing
Speaker 1: the other day in North Dakota, but I'm talking about
Speaker 1: we talked about it a year ago in South Dakota,
Speaker 1: UM where landowners were like putting out strings of Booey's
Speaker 1: to sort of like hold portions of the lake that
Speaker 1: sat over their property as their own thing. And it's
Speaker 1: just a lot of big piston match. Anyway, in this conversation,
Speaker 1: apparently calnt I blurted out with righteous, righteous indignation, I'm
Speaker 1: back to quoting at the concept of landowners setting bag
Speaker 1: limits for fishing the water they own, of course, being
Speaker 1: totally this quote from the writer the person writing in
Speaker 1: of course being totally clueless. You boys compared that to
Speaker 1: the European system, where landowners set bag limits. He says,
Speaker 1: not that's not true, and he says it's something you've
Speaker 1: done before. I hope this email prevents you from doing
Speaker 1: it again. Goes on to say, I try to give
Speaker 1: this information to Calahan, but he just blew it off.
Speaker 1: My take on you is that you're more of a
Speaker 1: fact based person who does not blow information off just
Speaker 1: because it contradicts your finally held beliefs. He attached some
Speaker 1: articles which John he's gonna read up on a new
Speaker 1: book reports down the road here when he gets a minute.
Speaker 1: He goes on to mention a fella that that we're
Speaker 1: all familiar with. And I've met Chris Eberhardt, who tragically
Speaker 1: passed away quite young, um, not too long ago, but
Speaker 1: the guy right and then says, you know Chris Eberhart.
Speaker 1: I discussed the problem of ill informed American hunting celebrities
Speaker 1: with him, and he made some interesting observations. First off,
Speaker 1: it's pretty typical of you and every other American to
Speaker 1: dismiss all of Europe as an elitist hunting and fishing
Speaker 1: club controlled by wealthy landowners. Wrong on count one. Second,
Speaker 1: that game management is a private affair with landowners making myriad,
Speaker 1: potentially harmful decisions all across the landscape. Wrong, continuing to
Speaker 1: quote it's all dictated by state biologists and failure to
Speaker 1: follow their management plan will result in fines. And finally,
Speaker 1: Chris points out that the American model is great and
Speaker 1: it's phenomenal at increasing populations, However, it sucks at controlling populations.
Speaker 1: The European model excels at that. Because private landowners are
Speaker 1: not allowed to make hunting off limits or restrict the
Speaker 1: take in hopes of growing trophies, it is easy to
Speaker 1: manage populations. That is a problem we are facing in
Speaker 1: many places in the US where private non hunting land
Speaker 1: as a haven for overpopulation. Too quick counterpoints. I feel
Speaker 1: a little bit like the person, like this individual is
Speaker 1: sort of committing the same mistake that we're committing, where
Speaker 1: he's generalizing in a way that I'm sure there are
Speaker 1: probably exceptions. I don't think that all of Europe is
Speaker 1: by mandate open to hunting. I bet you how many
Speaker 1: countries they got over there. They count in half of Russia.
Speaker 1: M I'm not sure if they're uh so. The other
Speaker 1: to Shay is that in my life, um, in my
Speaker 1: adult life, I've really come to rethink what people mean
Speaker 1: when they say overpopulated wildlife. I had a kid right
Speaker 1: in m This is not quoting. I had a kid
Speaker 1: right in the ore day. He's a high schooler and
Speaker 1: he wanted to interview me for a school project he's doing.
Speaker 1: And he's doing a thing about how you should be
Speaker 1: able to hunt bears in his state. You can't currently
Speaker 1: hunt bears in the state. And he's like, maybe he
Speaker 1: wants to make a documentary shown that you should be
Speaker 1: able to hunt bears because they'll become overpopulated. And I don't.
Speaker 1: I've never been in a place where I thought there
Speaker 1: was too many bears, Like I can't think I've ever
Speaker 1: think of there's too many bears. New Jersey might be
Speaker 1: headed that way. I don't know him, right, but yeah,
Speaker 1: but you also have never been like a farmer in
Speaker 1: have you populated bear country where bears are raiding your
Speaker 1: It's it's yeah, I think that When I was Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're right, I was gonna say it's a very it's
Speaker 1: a very subjective thing, right, it's a very SUBJECTI thing.
Speaker 1: When I'm sitting in my dear stand, I seldom of
Speaker 1: thinking there's too many dear it's a suggest. It's like
Speaker 1: a farmer probably think there's way too many. A vehicle
Speaker 1: insurance person probably think there's too many. Someone in the
Speaker 1: state that this kid is talking about, probably and he
Speaker 1: has an orchard, or he's a b person that has
Speaker 1: what's that called an apiary m what's the beekeeper called?
Speaker 1: That's that's correct, an apiarist. I don't know beekeeper. He
Speaker 1: probably think there's too many bears. But a bear hunter
Speaker 1: who just drew a bear tag, why not think there's
Speaker 1: too many bears? I'm saying subjective. Um, read the articles.
Speaker 1: This is going back and to say, even if you
Speaker 1: don't want to provide your listeners with the truth, you'll
Speaker 1: be informed enough to make too. Maybe stop feeding them
Speaker 1: a pile of horse ship cut the crap. Quit being
Speaker 1: an idiot. Oh, I forgot a little bit a buttlepart.
Speaker 1: European hunters are no less passionate and committed to conservation
Speaker 1: than are we Americans. You do them a horrible disservice
Speaker 1: and insult them when you slander their system without knowing
Speaker 1: shit about it. That's fair, like, it's fair. It's fair point,
Speaker 1: and I do think he makes it. Also, there's a
Speaker 1: good point he makes in there also. I can read
Speaker 1: here and quote that in Germany over six the population
Speaker 1: eats while the game because it is available commercially. He asks,
Speaker 1: what do you do? What do you think that does
Speaker 1: to encourage the general population to approve of hunting. My
Speaker 1: personal experience is that in Germany the populace looks forward
Speaker 1: with relish to the availability of wild as they call venison. Nope,
Speaker 1: not into that, not into it. Not into it. I'll
Speaker 1: never give. I should say i'll never give because I
Speaker 1: like to stay open to information. But I I know,
Speaker 1: I understand all the arguments how you should be able
Speaker 1: to sell venison in the areas where there's like a
Speaker 1: wide consensus the deer overpopulated. But I'm not into it.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's a good idea. Well, I think
Speaker 1: you would think it was a good idea if it
Speaker 1: meant that we would get your offspring and your afstrings
Speaker 1: aspring would get to continue hunting in our country. If
Speaker 1: that was the only way. If God came down to
Speaker 1: me and said, the only way your children will be
Speaker 1: able to hunt, as if people can sell venice in
Speaker 1: New Jersey, I'd have it would be a different conversation
Speaker 1: until that point. Yeah, that's why I said I'm open
Speaker 1: to change in my mind, because he might. I always
Speaker 1: think of wild mushrooms, just mushroom sitting there on a hillside,
Speaker 1: mine its own business until somebody puts a price tag
Speaker 1: on it, and then it said, God damn battle ground
Speaker 1: of people being assholes to each other in parking lots,
Speaker 1: packing guns around, all sorts of nasty unts, including giant piles,
Speaker 1: are human feces you mean at the morel spots, at
Speaker 1: the morrel spots, or the commercial guys come in and okay,
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, kind of ceased to be a mushroom
Speaker 1: once there was a price tag on it. And that's
Speaker 1: a thing that can't run away, get in front of
Speaker 1: other people. It's just plugged right into the ground. You've
Speaker 1: also got the public land private land thing here that
Speaker 1: like isn't an issue there, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: Like market hunting on public land, you know what I'm
Speaker 1: saying here, versus like you know, I understand all the
Speaker 1: arguments against it. I just think that it's also a
Speaker 1: very interesting argument, something that should make you think that
Speaker 1: if we don't have six approval of hunting, do we? Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's much higher in the US until you started asking specifics,
Speaker 1: it's higher than six. You call people. You can find
Speaker 1: all these studies online, all these serveys online. But it
Speaker 1: only works until you get specific. If you call people
Speaker 1: and say, do you support the regulated do you support
Speaker 1: like regulated hunting for food? Right? I don't know. I
Speaker 1: don't think you gotta put that way. Then you get
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's it's higher now than it wasn't
Speaker 1: the nineties. The minute you say something like do you
Speaker 1: support um hunting grizzly bears with traps? Trapping grizzly bears?
Speaker 1: The word trophy in there, Yeah, but any like it
Speaker 1: would be like if you went instead like do you
Speaker 1: support hunting game birds with the use of dogs, it'll
Speaker 1: go down like any detail puts it down. But the
Speaker 1: general idea of like regulated hunting is acceptable until you
Speaker 1: put a face to it. If you had a little
Speaker 1: picture of a little fawn and you're like, do you
Speaker 1: support hunting this? Right, you'd probably have a low score. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, one thing you gotta keep in mind too,
Speaker 1: it's a big difference between the US and and and
Speaker 1: Europe is cultural. Right, So you have in the US,
Speaker 1: we all share a common language and we have slight
Speaker 1: cultural differences. But in Europe, I mean it's it's almost, um,
Speaker 1: it's almost like you know, different ends of the world
Speaker 1: where you have different languages, you have different cultures, you
Speaker 1: have different mannerisms, and a lot of that goes and
Speaker 1: plays into um, you know what the the I guess hunting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like less likely to find some well traveled person who
Speaker 1: has a detailed, nuanced understanding of all the different states
Speaker 1: game management approaches because you can go to a conference
Speaker 1: and hear all their biologists talking in English. Yeah. And
Speaker 1: I think that even the environment is quite a bit different.
Speaker 1: So what you're gonna find in like the old Slavic
Speaker 1: region versus the Scandinavian region versus Spain. You know, they're
Speaker 1: very different, Um, just language wise, weather wise, check out,
Speaker 1: though it's not as different as the north slope of
Speaker 1: the Brooks Range is from the Buyou country of Louisiana.
Speaker 1: You're You're absolutely right. And I think the big big
Speaker 1: is that is that there's you know, it's tough to
Speaker 1: have somebody that's an expert in all those languages as
Speaker 1: well to do that, So might have to get three
Speaker 1: or four people. Karn's gonna figure it out. Sure, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of people who have traveled across Europe and
Speaker 1: hunted a lot of different places. Do you know who
Speaker 1: I bet would know all this stuff? Man, Um, Craig Boddington,
Speaker 1: That dude is hunted, he's probably, he's probably he's hounty
Speaker 1: countries I don't even know about, never heard of. That
Speaker 1: might be interesting. He's a gun writer, Craig real, real,
Speaker 1: nice fella. He's military to write. Colonel Colonel Craig Boddington
Speaker 1: put that new notes, Krim put that new notes and
Speaker 1: smoke it. A badger found a bunch of Roman treasure
Speaker 1: in Spain? You like that segue? John's um. The guy
Speaker 1: was looking at a badger burrow. You know about this
Speaker 1: count Let's be up here here. Guy was looking at
Speaker 1: a badger burrow and like some gold coins are laying
Speaker 1: out where he'd been digging around. They blame it on
Speaker 1: the unsea. They blame it on the very severe weather
Speaker 1: that northern Spain had as though this particularly harsh winter
Speaker 1: caused this badger to work extra hard and insert its
Speaker 1: legs and the even smaller cracks than normal next to
Speaker 1: his den, and this hard winner drove him to discover
Speaker 1: this cash of coins. It's a nice hypothesis to not
Speaker 1: once someone went and checked it out. Two nine coins
Speaker 1: dating back to what between the third and fifth centuries?
Speaker 1: A d uh way back when in my youth, when
Speaker 1: I was guiding antelope points outside of win At, Montana,
Speaker 1: there was a badger, maybe a family of badgers that
Speaker 1: had inhabited the win At Cemetery, and I mean just
Speaker 1: had no respect for the folks buried out there at
Speaker 1: the win At Cemetery. He's like, hey, you would you
Speaker 1: respect where my ancestors are buried? But not. Uh. Many
Speaker 1: times over the course of several years, I witnessed firsthand
Speaker 1: people shooting into the women went at cemetery trying to
Speaker 1: protect the bones of their grandfather's. Yeah, and every year, man,
Speaker 1: you'd see those tombstones and and uh, things just get
Speaker 1: like more and more Caddie want us as everything was
Speaker 1: getting undermined in there see a badger of carrying around
Speaker 1: an old flask or something like that. Carrying around granny
Speaker 1: shoulder blade. Yeah, one of the ranch hands on one
Speaker 1: of the places that we knew had had passed away.
Speaker 1: And you know, so we uh were real, real familiar
Speaker 1: with the date of internment and uh gotta gotta witness
Speaker 1: the progression of badger activity out there off of off
Speaker 1: of a known date. Yeah. The this this article about
Speaker 1: the this article about the badge you finding those coins
Speaker 1: ends with a very interesting superlative because they wanted to
Speaker 1: close it with a superlative. So it's it's highly qualified.
Speaker 1: This was the largest trove of Roman coins found in
Speaker 1: a cave in the north of the country on Tuesday.
Speaker 1: I want to know what happened at the bad I
Speaker 1: want to know how big a stash of Roman coins
Speaker 1: were found in the central There's some wealthy match out
Speaker 1: there that they're not talking about. Uh, okay, do this
Speaker 1: little uh do your report. This is not a call
Speaker 1: to action, but this is a ridiculous I think this
Speaker 1: is ridiculous. Oh yeah, so this past fall, a muzzle
Speaker 1: loader hunter in Colorado shot and fatally wounded a archery
Speaker 1: hunter killed. Yeah, well, fatally killed would be redundantouldn't it.
Speaker 1: I was gonna say that I stopped myself. I heard
Speaker 1: you stop yourself. I just wanted people to know that
Speaker 1: he was dead. Well all right, so he uh yeah,
Speaker 1: nothing to laugh about anyways. That has spurred people talking
Speaker 1: about how to make um the UH coinciding muzzleloader and
Speaker 1: archery season in Colorado safer. Um. Both of these groups
Speaker 1: have over the years since they've started having these seasons,
Speaker 1: which is sometimes in the seventies, when they've had a
Speaker 1: coinciding UH muzzloader season and an archery season. Right, Muzlowos
Speaker 1: have a little farther range. Um, you know, it's a rifle.
Speaker 1: They're both primitive, so they both both archery and mussloders
Speaker 1: are primitive, so they've both requested to hunt during the
Speaker 1: run to make the hunt easier. And so basically the
Speaker 1: musloder hunters get a nine day season roughly the third
Speaker 1: week right rodeo September, and archery season goes basically the
Speaker 1: whole month of September, give or take the dates a
Speaker 1: little bit, but um, you have a nine day period
Speaker 1: where it overlaps. To this point. Archie hunters just get
Speaker 1: to go in full camo. Musloder hunters have to wear
Speaker 1: just like rifle hunters in Colorado five square inches of
Speaker 1: daylight orange. It's a lot um so uh. Since uh
Speaker 1: that year in the nineteen seventies, there has been three
Speaker 1: uh instances where hunters have been or archie hunter has
Speaker 1: been shot by muzzloader hunters. Two of them were fatal
Speaker 1: um but one a decade, no one more than a
Speaker 1: decade to five. We gotta get just like a person
Speaker 1: in here from around it's like, oh we got one. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it would be like you know, point seven five or
Speaker 1: point eight? Oh sorry I met one point five decades yeah,
Speaker 1: um yeah, man, we should do a lot of math
Speaker 1: stuff with this guy. Uh. So they're proposing now that
Speaker 1: during that nine day season that archery hunters, to make
Speaker 1: it safer, that during that nine day coinciding season, that
Speaker 1: the archer hunters would also be required to wear the
Speaker 1: five square inches. Oh they're so, they're throwing down on
Speaker 1: the full freaking five five. Yeah. I read up. I
Speaker 1: read up, and it is a full five hondo. Um,
Speaker 1: but only while muzzle order season is in. Uh is
Speaker 1: in and only on public land? Do you know how
Speaker 1: long that muzzle latter season is? Not only public land only?
Speaker 1: While most loaders let you report it's over because I'm
Speaker 1: gona tell you what I would do. Ah, they have
Speaker 1: they have other options that are getting thrown out there,
Speaker 1: other alternatives like separating the regular archery and muzzleloader seasons, um,
Speaker 1: leaving it the same. Ah. But yeah, it's getting actually
Speaker 1: voted on today as we're as we're discussing this. Mm hmm.
Speaker 1: What would you do, Steve? If I was the Emperor
Speaker 1: of Colorado, I would and I probably wouldn't get it
Speaker 1: done immediately. I would scrap all this talk. I'd scrap
Speaker 1: all the orange talk for archery hunters, and I would
Speaker 1: put my best people. Um, I'll put my best people
Speaker 1: on bringing our this is the Omber of Colorado. I'd
Speaker 1: be like, I want you guys to call everybody all
Speaker 1: the other states that have elk archery hunts and muzzleloader hunts,
Speaker 1: and I want you to come to me with proposal
Speaker 1: that separates the hunts so that when it's archery season, like,
Speaker 1: the archery season stays as a archery rut hunt. And
Speaker 1: we're gonna make like everybody else, We're gonna make Um,
Speaker 1: We're gonna figure out what that like allocation is and
Speaker 1: impacts on her dynamics and wintering range and all that garbage,
Speaker 1: like a very well calculated thing. We're going to figure
Speaker 1: out how to have archery during the rut. We're gonna
Speaker 1: run our firearms seasons. Then we're gonna run the muzzloader
Speaker 1: stuff later, and the muzzleloader is gonna be like on
Speaker 1: its own late season. It's not going to be You're
Speaker 1: just gonna kick the muzzlers right on out of September. Hey,
Speaker 1: this is coming from a guy that's hunted muzzleloader in
Speaker 1: Colorado during archery season. Okay, that's if I was the
Speaker 1: Emperor of Colorado, I would say, I want to buy
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three season. I want this all separated. You
Speaker 1: would have to be the emperor to get that ship passed.
Speaker 1: I think in this hypothetical it's only valuable to talk
Speaker 1: about like like it's just like if you're talking about
Speaker 1: what you would do. I'm just something like if I, yeah,
Speaker 1: if I was not the emperor, that that won't be
Speaker 1: the answer. I'm saying, like, if someone came to me
Speaker 1: with the problem, that's what I would say, because it's
Speaker 1: it's it's a proven formula all around the damn country
Speaker 1: it is, but the only place where you've got muzzloader
Speaker 1: guys and archery guys. Why I can await at the
Speaker 1: same time. But you've you're all about traditional use patterns,
Speaker 1: and that's a traditional use. I'm not taking it away.
Speaker 1: I'm not taking it away. You're taking that rut hunt
Speaker 1: away from buzzleloader hunter. Yes I am, which is traditional
Speaker 1: in Colorado. Okay, but not it's twenty five years. I'm
Speaker 1: not stripping a privilege. I'm finding a way. Like, what,
Speaker 1: what's your big I mean, I'm just what's the big
Speaker 1: qualm with wearing some orange during archery season? I think
Speaker 1: I know the answer, but like, what what you know?
Speaker 1: What you're here's the thing I'm here's if I was
Speaker 1: the Emperor, my plan? Uh isn't I'm not responding. I
Speaker 1: should clarify this. I'm not responding to the orange part.
Speaker 1: The orange part. I would say, there's an inherent risk
Speaker 1: of going outside with with weapons and wild animals and stuff,
Speaker 1: and like, yes, we've had a couple of fatalities over
Speaker 1: twenty five years. Um, we've had a lot more people
Speaker 1: die from exposure. It's like it's inherently risky. You have
Speaker 1: a weapon, you're dealing with animals up close, people shoot
Speaker 1: elk and then the elk stands up and kills them.
Speaker 1: That happened last year. It's like, I like, we can't
Speaker 1: like there is risk involved in life. We're not gonna
Speaker 1: legislate to We're not gonna like create legislation to prevent
Speaker 1: a fatality every eight years among a user group that
Speaker 1: is wilfully going to engage in an activity. That's the
Speaker 1: first thing I would say if I was an emperor,
Speaker 1: and I'd say, but I do think it's goofy. Separate
Speaker 1: them because I just think it's a little bit goofy.
Speaker 1: And I've done it and I'll do it again, but
Speaker 1: I think it's a little goofy. That's all I was
Speaker 1: just interested in. You know, the state Idaho, all of
Speaker 1: their firearm seasons require zero orange. It's like if you
Speaker 1: want to wear it, great. Um. When I was hunting
Speaker 1: Idaho all the time, Uh, I always have like a
Speaker 1: blaze orange cap with me. Um, and I'll wear it
Speaker 1: all the time or wear it some of the time,
Speaker 1: just depending on what's going on. Um. You know all
Speaker 1: these stupid pictures of people when they pack out bucks
Speaker 1: that for whatever reason, the fad now is to put
Speaker 1: the antler straight up the way you look like a
Speaker 1: buck coming You know that way you look like a
Speaker 1: buck coming through the woods season right? Uh, like a
Speaker 1: buck back and through the woods. I don't do that,
Speaker 1: but I always throw a chunk of Blaze Orange up
Speaker 1: on top of my pack during those circumstances. UM. I
Speaker 1: just want to say that the interesting thing that pertains
Speaker 1: to this kind of station is UM. I was like, boy,
Speaker 1: Idaho must not have a lot of hunting fatalities, because
Speaker 1: it rarely comes up that they need to start requiring
Speaker 1: blaze orange for hunting seasons. UM. But certainly in comparison
Speaker 1: to the Colorado statistics that Johannes rattled off, Idaho's on
Speaker 1: par with hunting related UH shootings and fatal shootings. Are they? Are?
Speaker 1: They ahead of the curve it went when calibrated for
Speaker 1: percentages since nineteen eighty, which was the um as is
Speaker 1: for a lot of places the start of the hunter
Speaker 1: education program. UM, the average is one point nine fatalities.
Speaker 1: Since Let's see, since the inception of Idaho's hunter Education program,
Speaker 1: hunting seasons have averaged one point nine fatality the's and
Speaker 1: five point eight non fatal shootings per per season. Once
Speaker 1: someone who's real good on the internet. Find uh find
Speaker 1: that for Michigan. I know that the Hunter's Safety program
Speaker 1: cause fatalities to plummet. Yeah, I think Dirkin wrote an
Speaker 1: article about that on our website. You know what's funny
Speaker 1: about Colorado is they don't require orange for small game
Speaker 1: and bird hunting, like you're using a gun, and yeah,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't. You don't need it here for bird hunting.
Speaker 1: But I wouldn't gripe if they if all of a
Speaker 1: sudden you had to wear an orange hat bird hunt,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have I wouldn't have a fit. But it's
Speaker 1: just weird how their nitpicking this situation and in the
Speaker 1: regulations because obviously we're all reading them all the time.
Speaker 1: It's amazing how much print each state that doesn't require
Speaker 1: orange for upland bird hunting, how much print they take
Speaker 1: up in the rags strongly encouraging to wear. And they
Speaker 1: could have been quicker just to make it that you
Speaker 1: head to wear. It would just be quicker. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: it's such a part of upland bird culture anyway, It's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: like they build it into bird vests and stuff. You know,
Speaker 1: it's gotta be related to why they don't do. It's
Speaker 1: got to be like a mechanism to free up wardens
Speaker 1: to do like more important warden work, I imagine than
Speaker 1: just chasing around people with not enough orange on. In Michigan,
Speaker 1: they felt that the remember being a kid and people
Speaker 1: saying that the reason they had on a hunters orange
Speaker 1: laws is sold the game wardens could find you quicker.
Speaker 1: Maybe you couldn't hide from game wardens. Um you'd be like, well,
Speaker 1: I thought it was because people shoot each other a lot, right,
Speaker 1: and you know the bad guys aren't taking those vests off. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like, ah, I'm gonna give up poach now they
Speaker 1: passed this hunter sword law. My whole program sunk. Do
Speaker 1: you want to hear how many people have died in
Speaker 1: Michigan real quick? Please? Uh? Thirty eight hunting related injuries
Speaker 1: eighteen deaths between need put that to our engineer, Well,
Speaker 1: we really need to know how many hunters on each
Speaker 1: It's that's just seasons, you know what I mean? Is
Speaker 1: there quite a bit more? And then the other other
Speaker 1: side too, is that's probably a lot more wooded hunting.
Speaker 1: So are you shooting that is like a lot of
Speaker 1: that people shooting through brush obviously that's unacceptable, but much
Speaker 1: higher density of hunters. Hey has an engineer? Have you
Speaker 1: been in? Uh? Where are they? No? I haven't do him. Well,
Speaker 1: we took him down to put the tiki bar sign
Speaker 1: up there, and I haven't put it back up, son
Speaker 1: of a bitch. Phil. You might want wander over later
Speaker 1: on and take a look at that. Oh sure, the
Speaker 1: odds of the turkeyo walk pass if you don't do
Speaker 1: anything I like that in the woods. Um, thank you, Johnnie.
Speaker 1: Well we'll get back, Like I said, Durkin wrote a
Speaker 1: whole thing about this, all right, So ready we can't
Speaker 1: go on all damn day. Man, do do do do
Speaker 1: do do do do do do do do do do
Speaker 1: do do Friends and neighbors coming to you. I'll be good, Okay,
Speaker 1: agree to disagree on that. Should have gone with it,
Speaker 1: never give up. Well, yeah, there's the Uh we shall
Speaker 1: fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the seas.
Speaker 1: That one. So this fights about Yellowstone. Um back to
Speaker 1: the wolf desk, fighting the hot springs. Uh. We've been
Speaker 1: following this off and on for I don't know how long,
Speaker 1: a few months now, right, this northern Yellowstone wolf situation
Speaker 1: where uh, wolves that live at Den in the park
Speaker 1: are wandering past the northern border of Yellowstone onto public
Speaker 1: land in in Montana and getting shot. And I think
Speaker 1: it was a few months ago the first one got
Speaker 1: shot and they've been whittling him away. One of the
Speaker 1: first things I want to tackle is do they wander? Well? Sure,
Speaker 1: I mean that, that's the whole thing, like this, this
Speaker 1: whole situation wandering, That's the whole thing is this situation
Speaker 1: is based on the premise that these are somehow quote
Speaker 1: yellow Stones wolves they got lost, um, which is that's
Speaker 1: a really good point. He might not think that he
Speaker 1: wandered anywhere, and if you asked him where he lived,
Speaker 1: he might point to Montana. Yeah, he goes, No. When
Speaker 1: I'm over in Yellos, I'm occasionally wander over there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I just happened to get my picture taken a
Speaker 1: lot more when I'm over that way, which lends people
Speaker 1: to think that, Yeah, let's assume that these wolves spend
Speaker 1: the majority of their time in Yellowstone, they den there,
Speaker 1: they raise their pups there, whatever, I think that's probably
Speaker 1: the case. Um. Anyway, I think the last time we
Speaker 1: checked in, like three of these wolves had been killed.
Speaker 1: Now we're up to twenty and uh, the Phantom Lake
Speaker 1: pack has now considered eliminated after most are all of
Speaker 1: its members were killed h since October UM, so an
Speaker 1: entire pack basically is considered eliminated from Yellowstone part of
Speaker 1: the park. Is the calling it a setback species long
Speaker 1: term viability. Uh, which that's a debated point. With a
Speaker 1: setback of research, I have a hard time behind me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't think so. Um these will like
Speaker 1: Montana relaxed some regulations or changed some regulations just north
Speaker 1: of the park to allow more wolves to be harvested
Speaker 1: in that that region of Montana. Um, the park superintendent
Speaker 1: is not happy about it. Some wolf advocates are not
Speaker 1: happy about it, and uh kind of button heads. Park
Speaker 1: superintendent called cam Shaley has raised concerns kind of calling
Speaker 1: out Montana Governor Gen Forte to to shut things down, like,
Speaker 1: you know, just end the season now g and Forte
Speaker 1: is not having that, and U basically says, you know,
Speaker 1: this is we're gonna manage wolves in our state, how
Speaker 1: we're going to manage them. And the season is continuing.
Speaker 1: So that's kind of where we're at. Remember that quote
Speaker 1: Yellowstone is two point two million acres of paradise surrounded
Speaker 1: by Reality's um you know, like I understand if an
Speaker 1: entire pack has been you know, essentially eliminated, that you know,
Speaker 1: there's some concerns there maybe, But um, I just I
Speaker 1: don't I feel like this as usual, This wolf thing
Speaker 1: is definitely being portrayed in the media without a real
Speaker 1: deep dive into things, into the wildlife management. It's just
Speaker 1: like twenty wolves killed, twenty Yellowstone wolves. They you're never
Speaker 1: gonna hear here and referred to it and half probably
Speaker 1: had names. Sure, they had numbers, for sure, callers and numbers,
Speaker 1: and well, I mean who did the population level quote?
Speaker 1: Like that's that, I'll eat my hat if that's biologist
Speaker 1: who said that, Like, oh that there's only ninety four
Speaker 1: wolves in Yellowstone? Know that the taking these wolves out
Speaker 1: is going to have a population level effect on these things?
Speaker 1: What's the main headline? Sure? How many puffs are going
Speaker 1: to be born this spring? Right? Yeah? I mean it's
Speaker 1: just not and when we're talking we want to talk
Speaker 1: about a population, talk about a population if you want
Speaker 1: to talk about um individuals within a population. But the
Speaker 1: other thing it's not mentioned is like wolves go to
Speaker 1: war with each other all the time, and like one
Speaker 1: wolf will go pack will go wipe out another, and
Speaker 1: you know, this vacuum of space is created where there
Speaker 1: are no wolves for a while, and then it's filled
Speaker 1: back up. You know. I think although these are human,
Speaker 1: fatality is you're probably gonna run into the same the
Speaker 1: same situation, like some wolves are gonna occupy that territory
Speaker 1: at some point. Yeah. That was my main takeaway from
Speaker 1: Diane boys podcast with us was that, like that population
Speaker 1: fluctuates by every year, so if it truly is ninety four,
Speaker 1: then when all those pulps are born, it'll bump up
Speaker 1: to h Come on quick, math. Yeah. She said that
Speaker 1: that at pupping season the population is usually down, then
Speaker 1: it bounces doubles, and then it probably goes, you know
Speaker 1: back down. Yeah. If they're so mad or worried about
Speaker 1: all these wolves getting you know, killed, then they should
Speaker 1: stop the other packs from killing the other wolves because
Speaker 1: that's what kills wolves as Also, that's what she said
Speaker 1: that the number the lead caused of death and Yellowstone
Speaker 1: wolves as Yellowstone wolves, Well, I don't even think we'd
Speaker 1: be hearing about it if these weren't Yellowstone wolves. No,
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't think you would. The two primary
Speaker 1: things that I remain interested in, Like, the main interesting
Speaker 1: points to me are that we're still the yell the
Speaker 1: greater yellostone ecosystem, a term that I want to think
Speaker 1: of a replacement for, um, the g y E. We're
Speaker 1: still above the objective that everyone agreed to in the
Speaker 1: early nineties as what recovery would look like. So I'm trying.
Speaker 1: I'm kind of like, I have a hard time understanding
Speaker 1: why did that understanding of a recovery objective? Like what
Speaker 1: has happened to make that so wrong? Yeah? Why is
Speaker 1: that recovery objective now dismissed? The other part that I
Speaker 1: think it's interesting just to just to watch from the sidelines,
Speaker 1: I guess I'm not on the sidelines. I'm I'm in
Speaker 1: it is um to what degree is y also national
Speaker 1: park or any national park gonna dictate wildlife management across
Speaker 1: its borders, Which is like a really interesting fight, and
Speaker 1: it has implications for bison, has implications for predators, Like
Speaker 1: you have a national park and it has its own
Speaker 1: rules and it has its supporters and visitors. To what
Speaker 1: degree does that rule bleed beyond those borders? With these
Speaker 1: buffer zones and other things we've toyed with. It's just
Speaker 1: a really interesting, like look at wildlife law and it's
Speaker 1: it's this fed versus state thing that's building up, like
Speaker 1: you're gonna see it with grizzlies too. Yeah, that's like
Speaker 1: there's an undertone of that, right, there's the undertone of
Speaker 1: local management, federal oversight, Washington d C. Telling you how
Speaker 1: to live and that As soon as the debate was
Speaker 1: happening with the introduction of wolves into Yellowstone, there was
Speaker 1: also the yeah, but what happens when they go out
Speaker 1: of Yellowstone? Like the same breath, same page. There was
Speaker 1: never a thought that, oh, no, these are Yellowstone wolves,
Speaker 1: therefore they will stay in Yellowstone and that's going to
Speaker 1: be that. I'll tell you what happens when they go
Speaker 1: out of Yellowstone. They go down to Colorado and kill
Speaker 1: the first cattle and first beef cow in seventy years.
Speaker 1: Great segue, bread hit it. Yeah, that was way better
Speaker 1: that thing about those badgers. Um in a in a
Speaker 1: place Walden, Colorado, where Jannest and I have spent some time.
Speaker 1: Um a few weeks back. First livestock predation by wolves
Speaker 1: confirmed live stock predation by wolves in seventy years just happened.
Speaker 1: They should put a roadside attraction sign there, like you
Speaker 1: go down the road and says like you know, a
Speaker 1: historic side ahead. And they got one those wooden signs
Speaker 1: of someone chiseled into words. But here's the first. This
Speaker 1: is where the first UH commins seventy years is killed
Speaker 1: by wolf in Colorado. Yeah, and it gets juice here
Speaker 1: because the I assume wolves from the same pack just
Speaker 1: killed a ranch dog, a border Collie named Buster. May
Speaker 1: he rest in peace. Remember New Mexico and that woman's
Speaker 1: um dog got caught in a snare and the dog
Speaker 1: they made a law. Yep, that was like, what the
Speaker 1: hell's that dog's name? Pucci. Let's say it's like Pukam's
Speaker 1: anti trapping law. The anti trapping law became like Pugam's law. Yep.
Speaker 1: I want there's gonna be an anti wolf law called
Speaker 1: Buster's law. I don't know. This is for a Buster.
Speaker 1: My buddy, his bird dog just got caught in kyote
Speaker 1: trap in Pennsylvania. To get it out, he did, yeah,
Speaker 1: and he was fired up and wanted to get something
Speaker 1: done about it. The game was, do you want to
Speaker 1: get some traps? The game. They wanted to see that
Speaker 1: guy punished somehow. It's like, dude, like, was the guy
Speaker 1: doing anything illegal? No, there's a name on the trap.
Speaker 1: It was legally placed. Game. Warden was like, sorry, I
Speaker 1: can't do anything. Keep Dog on Leach buddy. Now, rud,
Speaker 1: who's going to remake the set? What's that is a foothold? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Dog was fine. Yeah, who's gonna remake the set? Very
Speaker 1: some scent proof gloves and remake this set? But moving on.
Speaker 1: Good job Brodie, everybody, Brodie Anderson, thanks speaking speaking speaking
Speaker 1: on gloves, if you had any chance to try out those, Yeah,
Speaker 1: we're good. Yeah, I really like them. I'm worried about durability,
Speaker 1: but so far so Yeah. I wear uh for cold weather,
Speaker 1: wet stuff, setting decoys, pulling shrimp pots and whatnot. Like
Speaker 1: an insulated atlet. Wherever the hell that the atlas Vinyl
Speaker 1: Love it's called Vinyl Love. You know, like seven eight bucks.
Speaker 1: I feel like I still like to say the three
Speaker 1: four bucks, but not three four bucks. They have that
Speaker 1: that insulated glove on the inside. Yeah, um well no,
Speaker 1: not the one that comes out, but I have both
Speaker 1: so that the kind of comes out, which is far
Speaker 1: superior because when you're the other one's wet. I mean
Speaker 1: they're wet for like three years, especially up at the shack. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you get the kind of where the insulation doesn't come out,
Speaker 1: you get that soaked. Uh took mom up to the
Speaker 1: fish shack. Steve noticed that she had the kind where
Speaker 1: the insulation stays on the inside, and you made that
Speaker 1: comment to her, and uh, she gripped on the inside
Speaker 1: with her fingernails, I'm guessing, pulled the liners out, cut
Speaker 1: a little lying around them. So now they're removable, and
Speaker 1: fix that some bit. Yeah, my whole life. She made
Speaker 1: it removable. That's a thirty seconds out the removable and
Speaker 1: now it was removable liners. So but dexterity is poor. Um.
Speaker 1: And then Yanni discovered a new kind word. Man, you
Speaker 1: could do brain surgery and those things. Yeah, I'm bummed.
Speaker 1: I bought four pairs. One pair was for me, and
Speaker 1: uh my wife was like, oh, but you know, my
Speaker 1: your father in law would probably also like to have
Speaker 1: a set of those gloves. So I can't even don't
Speaker 1: even have a set. All my buddies and family are
Speaker 1: wearing it. What Showa tamriy s smile to eighty two Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like an insulated rubber. When you find online, you'll
Speaker 1: think you're looking at those vinyl Atlas gloves. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: I said, you could do brain surgery and you can
Speaker 1: count coins in it. But um uh, I'm a little
Speaker 1: worried that I don't. I don't know. I was tipped
Speaker 1: off by product designer about him, who said that a
Speaker 1: lot of uh, like ice climbing mountaineer folks that do
Speaker 1: a lot of climbing in the winter and ropes and whatnot,
Speaker 1: that they were using that glove. They're probably good for
Speaker 1: ice fishing too. You can get a pack of those
Speaker 1: Atlas gloves twelve or forty bucks on him. That's how
Speaker 1: I buy them. Yeah, that's how I buy them. Put
Speaker 1: him Like Steve said, you can actually do things with these,
Speaker 1: but I buy them in packs. And you know what
Speaker 1: I do when I leave people, I think this is wasteful.
Speaker 1: When I leave my fish shack, the last thing I
Speaker 1: do on my way out is burn my pair. So
Speaker 1: I'm never tempted to wear him again. It's like guarantee
Speaker 1: their full of holes. They get, they get funk. I
Speaker 1: used always trying to keep them nice. Now I'm like,
Speaker 1: once they get a hole on them. I just get
Speaker 1: rid of them. Uh watch this transition. You know how
Speaker 1: elk you know how wolves eat out sometimes. Yeah, Well,
Speaker 1: they got an elk hunt in Virginia first whatever mm hmm.
Speaker 1: Virginia is gonna have its first elk draw. They're opening
Speaker 1: up an elk hunt lottery. This year. They did their
Speaker 1: this is a quick turnaround. They did their reintroduction of
Speaker 1: elk into Virginia between two thousand and twelve and two
Speaker 1: thousand fourteen. February one, application period will open for the
Speaker 1: inaugural hunt. They got bulls running around already that they're
Speaker 1: They got three bulls running around nine pounds three the hunt.
Speaker 1: So this will be the hunt for the three season now.
Speaker 1: The hunt will be October eight of this year, October four,
Speaker 1: five antlered tags. Application period opens February one, closes March thirty.
Speaker 1: It's probably residents only, right, I don't know. I was
Speaker 1: gonna ask if it was open and on. Great news
Speaker 1: for Virginia, man. Pretty soon those all those eastern elk
Speaker 1: populations are gonna start connecting with each other. It'll be
Speaker 1: cool and that happens. I got a hot tip for
Speaker 1: you if you want some easy pickings. Draw the first year. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that you will get a close standing still shot,
Speaker 1: I imagine, so uh quick note, we covered real heavily
Speaker 1: and uh what was the name of that episode kran
Speaker 1: get out of my airspace? What was it called? No?
Speaker 1: The last thing we do with Dave Wilms, all up
Speaker 1: in your airspace, all up in your airspace, in all
Speaker 1: up in your airspace. We covered this corner crossing issue
Speaker 1: where um, some guys did a corner jump on a
Speaker 1: corner that had been Uh they had to use a
Speaker 1: ladder to get over obstructions that the landowner who owned
Speaker 1: the private chunks of the corner had put up. And
Speaker 1: a lawyer wrote into us, He's got a picture of
Speaker 1: the corner. I'm not gonna tell what the sign says,
Speaker 1: but it's a no trespassing sign and a chain strung up.
Speaker 1: And a lawyer wrote in saying that why is the
Speaker 1: landowner not being cited for having his obstruction chains in
Speaker 1: the public airspace? So he's violating the same airspace argument
Speaker 1: that he's arguing. He's saying, when you step from when
Speaker 1: you do a corner hop, your body is crossing my airspace.
Speaker 1: Yet his obstructions, his chains are in public airspace is problem.
Speaker 1: Your argument for has to acknowledge the argument against right,
Speaker 1: Like if you believe in evil, thereby you believe in good. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So he's like, I don't want your stuff over my airspace,
Speaker 1: so to prevent that, I will put my stuff over
Speaker 1: your airspace. Man, we took this to Dave Willis even
Speaker 1: has some Latin that I don't understand, but he said, um,
Speaker 1: it sure seems he doesn't know. He hasn't looked into it.
Speaker 1: He's just he said, taking it like so he's like
Speaker 1: cursory inspection. He points out that there is a thing
Speaker 1: called the Unlawful Enclosures Act guarantees the right of access
Speaker 1: to all public lands UM, which dates back to the
Speaker 1: eighteen which backs dates back to five. He goes on
Speaker 1: to say, I don't I haven't done enough research know
Speaker 1: how it's pertinent here, but there is a thing here,
Speaker 1: And he said it it's an interesting idea to look into.
Speaker 1: Um And well, we'll cover updates on that case again
Speaker 1: sometime soon. Okay, want to speed to the Minnesota deal.
Speaker 1: I like it because of the guy bleaches his hair.
Speaker 1: That's a sure tip off. You know how in these
Speaker 1: articles they always like to point out if the purp
Speaker 1: has a like a prior rap sheet that was real
Speaker 1: prominent in this that UM. I can't remember if it
Speaker 1: was like domestic abuse or like substance abuse. Anyway, the
Speaker 1: guy apparently was a bad egg, which isn't supposed to matter.
Speaker 1: But a Minnesota deer farmer had a Minnesota deer farm.
Speaker 1: He had c w D infected animals, and what was
Speaker 1: he doing with him? He was dumping them on public
Speaker 1: ground right outside his enclosure. And the what was the
Speaker 1: DNR found, UM evidently like evidence of prions in the
Speaker 1: area where these deer were being dumped, And so the
Speaker 1: deer farm got shut down. They said, you gotta put
Speaker 1: some up ten ft high bearrier around this to keep
Speaker 1: other deer and humans out of the area. He refused
Speaker 1: to do so, UH got charged with several different things. UM.
Speaker 1: Whereas it Beltram County pronounce where it lays out what
Speaker 1: he got charged with. UM broke the law in four ways,
Speaker 1: moving quarantine deer off his farm, dumping their carcasses on
Speaker 1: public land, failing to test all his worms dead deer
Speaker 1: for c w D, and failing to maintain accurate herd records.
Speaker 1: Included unreported dear death, so they nailed him. Uh, he
Speaker 1: refused to put up the barrier, so the state of
Speaker 1: Minnesota did at the cost of a thousand dollars. And uh,
Speaker 1: they're trying to get this guy to pay for it.
Speaker 1: It's probably not gonna happen. I don't know, maybe it will.
Speaker 1: But anyway, if you found a guy passed out behind
Speaker 1: a street club in Las Vegas and rolled him over exactly, Um, anyway,
Speaker 1: he's he's his argument again there. The argument against his
Speaker 1: argument is that this is government overreach. It's not the
Speaker 1: kind of barrier they put up around other places. It's
Speaker 1: it's overstepping what needs to be done. You know, I'd argue,
Speaker 1: not enough is being done, but uh, I was gonna
Speaker 1: say better not let Doug durn get ahold of this guy.
Speaker 1: He sent it to us. But they don't say how
Speaker 1: big this guy is. I guarantee would take this guy
Speaker 1: from Richland County. UM. A good point here is c
Speaker 1: w D represents a major economic threat. Deer hunting represents
Speaker 1: a five hundred million dollar industry in Minnesota. And what
Speaker 1: does the captive servant industry represent economically? And I would
Speaker 1: think the captains servant industry would say this guy is
Speaker 1: a poor representation of captains. It would be like if
Speaker 1: if someone yeah, this can't be taken because if if
Speaker 1: some guy had poached like thirty deer, okay, would we
Speaker 1: be sitting here being like just goes to show them hunters.
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, I don't wanna this is not a
Speaker 1: I don't think this can be taken as as like
Speaker 1: that's how they are. But it is just like an
Speaker 1: extraordinarily kind of like shitty thing to do. Yeah, to
Speaker 1: take a bunch of a bunch of infected deer then
Speaker 1: in haulm off off your land and dump them on
Speaker 1: private land and then act like it's not your problem
Speaker 1: when they want, I'm sorry, you take infected deer off
Speaker 1: your place, dump on public land and then be that
Speaker 1: it's not my problem when they want to fence it off.
Speaker 1: So more so, do you aren't running around on your
Speaker 1: little homemade toxic site, which I mean this is. This
Speaker 1: is the entire argument wrapped up in a nutshell. It's
Speaker 1: like this guy read the history of the conflict between
Speaker 1: the captive servant industry, the UH proposed regulation history of Okay, well,
Speaker 1: we need stricter testing, we want a double barrier so
Speaker 1: wild individuals cannot come in contact with captive or farmed individuals.
Speaker 1: And he's like, uh, huh, got it, got it? It
Speaker 1: was a there was a dozen deer more that they Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: I think at one last point that's important here is uh,
Speaker 1: this is being watched closely by hunters, officials, lawmakers, and
Speaker 1: the commercial deer farm industry because what this what ultimately
Speaker 1: deer farmers end up being responsible for clean up? Wise
Speaker 1: could like this could have applications on that in the future.
Speaker 1: I can see that. Yeah, I can see that this
Speaker 1: could wind up the chunker grounds eleven acres as we
Speaker 1: say that, So you just lost eleven acres of public land. Well,
Speaker 1: his is enclosure was eleven acres m this spot they're
Speaker 1: they're fencing all right. Yeah, you know people in that
Speaker 1: area just lost not a catastrophic loss, but they lost
Speaker 1: eleven acres of public ground, which is now behind a
Speaker 1: fence to keep people out. Yeah, you're bumbing if you
Speaker 1: had a tree standing at eleven acres with a nice
Speaker 1: deer trail walking underneath it. All right, John Miller, you ready,
Speaker 1: First thing I gotta say, did you know that John
Speaker 1: Miller from Minnesota? Yeah, that's how you could use that
Speaker 1: as John from Minnesota got a baritack. John Miller, you
Speaker 1: gotta be hard to look up. I bet your old
Speaker 1: girlfriend's ears can't even begin to try to find you
Speaker 1: on on on Facebook, John Miller. How many does think
Speaker 1: John Miller running around? I'm actually the sixth. So my
Speaker 1: dad's John Miller and his dad's John Miller, and you
Speaker 1: know about six of them that you're related to at least. Yeah,
Speaker 1: hard gutta fun. Okay, how does how does the story begin? Um? So?
Speaker 1: I think the first thing I gotta start with is,
Speaker 1: you know, kind of um building up, you know, the
Speaker 1: situation from you know, the actual grizzly attack. Right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know what when I say how it's the beginning?
Speaker 1: What were you doing? So we're out out con um
Speaker 1: and so it's something you do a bit like you
Speaker 1: like to get around. You do a lot of hunting,
Speaker 1: so yeah, I do. I do a lot of traveling
Speaker 1: for work, and uh, I like to experience a lot
Speaker 1: of different unique types of hunts and fishing and things
Speaker 1: like that. And this is my first big elkhonic trip.
Speaker 1: Actually I've I've had a cow tag before, but this
Speaker 1: is my first bull tag, and um, so we went
Speaker 1: out for a gun season. I'm more of an archery guy,
Speaker 1: like the archery hunt, but um, you know, it takes
Speaker 1: a lot more time. And so this time we drew
Speaker 1: general tags and uh we went for the rifles season
Speaker 1: and you were in what mountain range? There? The astroca
Speaker 1: or some people call him a zorkis, Um, how do
Speaker 1: you pronounce them? Well, there's two different things, um, the
Speaker 1: Absorker arrange, but the Absorkies is something different. Right when
Speaker 1: people say I thought it was a city at one
Speaker 1: point in time, but then I've heard people use it,
Speaker 1: there is a there is a little town over there. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: well anyway, um, so we went out and season started
Speaker 1: on October one. So in October one, one of the
Speaker 1: guys in the group shot a bull and uh so
Speaker 1: we quartered that out. One of the guys in your party, correct, Yeah,
Speaker 1: So there were six of us in camp and one
Speaker 1: of them shot a bull on October one, and so
Speaker 1: we quartered out, brought all the meat back to camp,
Speaker 1: hung it, and uh, but left kind of the I
Speaker 1: guess the gut pile and carcass, if you will, deboned
Speaker 1: and as one does, as one does, Um, I'll just
Speaker 1: throw that in there. Some people didn't think that was
Speaker 1: it would be a lot to pack. Um. So there
Speaker 1: was a carcass sky in that area that night. I
Speaker 1: went out on October one in and to a different
Speaker 1: area couple miles south and didn't see anything. And with
Speaker 1: horses are on ft um. We had horses there in
Speaker 1: camp and we'd kind of used them, but you know,
Speaker 1: if you got close to something, obviously you tie up
Speaker 1: the horses and go off on foot. But um, so
Speaker 1: let's just fast forward to day two. UM. So October two. UM,
Speaker 1: you know that on that first day we had seen
Speaker 1: a herd of elk beyond where that first bowl was
Speaker 1: killed that got spooked after after that, UM, so we
Speaker 1: went back to see if you know, that herb was
Speaker 1: still there. And so we actually we went up to
Speaker 1: this this really nice knob where we could see this
Speaker 1: whole valley and it's kind of a burned area. So
Speaker 1: just kind of describing it for the listeners. You know,
Speaker 1: it's really open, really and you could see quite a
Speaker 1: long ways. UM. The part of the area that was
Speaker 1: um that had vegetation was all burned off, and then
Speaker 1: there was a really barren ridge that kind of went
Speaker 1: down and while we were glassing, we saw a herd
Speaker 1: elk at maybe yards to our north and and we
Speaker 1: were sitting there and we're no hurry. They were all
Speaker 1: bedded down. We could see the carcass from yesterday. Um,
Speaker 1: and so we we even talked about it. We looked
Speaker 1: at it and it's how many yards from you I
Speaker 1: would say at that time about five Um, so it's
Speaker 1: it's a decent bit. But and and you know, we
Speaker 1: could see a hundred two hundred yards all around that carcass,
Speaker 1: and and it looked like it hadn't been touched or
Speaker 1: moved or drug around or anything like that. And obviously
Speaker 1: see elk quite a ways out, and so your your
Speaker 1: focus kind of switches to, you know, to the elk.
Speaker 1: And so we started to make a play on these elk,
Speaker 1: um me and another guy and um, so you know,
Speaker 1: we started walking down, walking down this ridgeline that there
Speaker 1: was a trail that kind of it was cutting to
Speaker 1: the side of this hill and to probably ten ten
Speaker 1: fifteen yards to our to our right. Um, it was
Speaker 1: almost like a cliff that dropped into this real big valley.
Speaker 1: And uh, you know, we're walking towards the elk at
Speaker 1: yards and we're taking our time, stopping kind of glassing
Speaker 1: to our left because that's where we can see everything
Speaker 1: is often this burn vegetation, and you know, we're just
Speaker 1: looking for we don't want to spook anything to our
Speaker 1: herd or anything like that. Taking our time. And I
Speaker 1: would say probably on that we would walk about a
Speaker 1: hundred yards, stop glass a little bit, you know, taking
Speaker 1: our time, and you got a blunt to the right,
Speaker 1: You've got sort of it rolls over a blind spot
Speaker 1: but then drops off sharp. Yeah, and and you know
Speaker 1: we've been over there and looked at um kind of
Speaker 1: over that that ledge and it really you would not
Speaker 1: expect anything, you know, it's just it's just I would say,
Speaker 1: six hundred feet kind of down into this big valley
Speaker 1: and you know, there's just there's really not much there. Um, so,
Speaker 1: are you going towards the gut pile? We are, but
Speaker 1: we're probably we're probably gonna stay the closest we would
Speaker 1: have gone on that on that trail would probably about
Speaker 1: a hundred yards, you know, but we're we are headed
Speaker 1: in that general vicinity. And uh so, I would say,
Speaker 1: in our third stop. But you've already seen the gut
Speaker 1: pile this. We've seen it and everything around it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it's just it's not disturbed. Yeah, so you're kind
Speaker 1: of your guards down little bit, you know. And uh
Speaker 1: so we stopped maybe the second or third time, just
Speaker 1: to glass to our left, and I just remember hearing
Speaker 1: it was more like a squeal than anything, your brody squeal.
Speaker 1: Let's let's hear your best squeal. It was like that
Speaker 1: a little bit more aggressive than that. Ma, just can
Speaker 1: you can? I don't even to embarrass you, but I
Speaker 1: just like, yeah, I knew you're gonna ask me. Um,
Speaker 1: let's let's do like a like do like a similar
Speaker 1: to similar to like almost what you think like a
Speaker 1: wart hog or something we do, you know, yeah, kind
Speaker 1: of who did that? Um? Yeah? And so and so
Speaker 1: I'm I'm literally looking and both of us, both of
Speaker 1: us are looking through our binoculars to our left, you know,
Speaker 1: into the burn, and you hear the when you hear
Speaker 1: the noise, which is effectively over our right shoulder. So
Speaker 1: so we look over our right shoulder and there is
Speaker 1: a surly bear at it's ten a fifteen yards, I
Speaker 1: mean it's close, and it is running full speed ahead,
Speaker 1: and and there's two cubs trailer and coming from the
Speaker 1: direction of the gup pilor like as far as you know,
Speaker 1: like not related to the gut pose. So well, we
Speaker 1: can come back to that, but over the cliff effectively,
Speaker 1: so to our right. She came up out of that stuff,
Speaker 1: not out of the stuff I meant really off the
Speaker 1: other edge is a rock cliff that you would you
Speaker 1: would struggle to walk up without ropes. It's like a
Speaker 1: ridge line right skyline. It's a ridge line. She's coming
Speaker 1: from that stuff. She's coming from that ridge on the
Speaker 1: other side of that ridge. And you know, I would say,
Speaker 1: I would say, so, so let let me kind of
Speaker 1: describe the I guess the situation here. I'm standing with
Speaker 1: my binoculars looking to my left, look over the right,
Speaker 1: over to the right, and there's the silence two cubs.
Speaker 1: And you know, the first thing, you know, the first
Speaker 1: thing I would love to say, The first thing went
Speaker 1: through my mind was like, let's fight. You know that
Speaker 1: that is not what happened, you know, is how do
Speaker 1: we get out of this? Right? So I took a
Speaker 1: couple of steps back and I watched that that sou
Speaker 1: basically um kind of redirect redirect her her trajectory and
Speaker 1: you know it started. It went for the other guy
Speaker 1: and ahead of you. He was ahead, he was ahead
Speaker 1: of me. Um. And I may have seen it, seen
Speaker 1: her first because I kind of had a better vantage
Speaker 1: point from looking over my shoulder and whatnot. And so
Speaker 1: you know, I kind of described that as almost like
Speaker 1: a national geographic film of like watching a bear attack,
Speaker 1: like a clueless animal or something. It was just real graceful,
Speaker 1: just real fast, and like her mind was made up
Speaker 1: before we saw her that she was coming to eat
Speaker 1: and um. And so you know, I've listened some of
Speaker 1: your podcast and you talk about your big mistakes. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna talk about three of my big mistakes right here.
Speaker 1: So I have a have a I have a cannabaar spray.
Speaker 1: I also have a rifle. Um, I do not have
Speaker 1: a side and we can talk about that in a second.
Speaker 1: But um, you, hare's only so much gear guy I
Speaker 1: can take, but in my rifle. So I'm kind of
Speaker 1: a meticulous guy, right. I like to keep my gear
Speaker 1: really nice. And you know, I've kind of changed my
Speaker 1: mind since this incident, but you don't want it nice anymore. Well,
Speaker 1: I had a scope cover on, which is a little absurd, right.
Speaker 1: So I had a scope cover on and UM, I
Speaker 1: had UM. I had bullets in the magazine, but not
Speaker 1: in the chamber in my scope as people do, yes,
Speaker 1: as people do. UM. And I had my scope set
Speaker 1: to it wasn't max. I think it was at ten power.
Speaker 1: Now I do think you're dumb. The first two I'm like,
Speaker 1: I could see it. I could see it. But that's inexcusable.
Speaker 1: That is excusable. But I'm not saying that from a
Speaker 1: bear persuctive. I'm saying that for like no doubt, no doubt. Um.
Speaker 1: And And the other thing that's have you been the
Speaker 1: guy who killed the elk the prior day? Then I'd
Speaker 1: be like, sure, I get it, you're sure long shot
Speaker 1: never adjusted it. The other thing is, you know I
Speaker 1: kind of got into, um, you know, some some long
Speaker 1: range stuff. So I really you guys probably totally arguing
Speaker 1: the here. I like the first focal plant scopes, UM,
Speaker 1: nobody uses them from hunting for really like for hunter.
Speaker 1: UM use I guess you correct me if I'm wrong,
Speaker 1: But do you have do you use the first vocals?
Speaker 1: I've had them, but no, not not on my hunting guns. No,
Speaker 1: Because the big complaint there is obviously like you know,
Speaker 1: your cross hairs are real fine when you're zoomed way
Speaker 1: out and whatnot, and so um, anyway, so I had
Speaker 1: the first focal plant scope scope. That's what you're saying
Speaker 1: is as you dial the scope, the cross hairs get
Speaker 1: thicker and thinner. Correct, like the cross hairs magnify out,
Speaker 1: magnify it. And what's neat about it is like you're
Speaker 1: you know, your Christmas tree below is always correct regardless
Speaker 1: of what power you're on, right, And so it's great
Speaker 1: if you're making five, but not I think you can
Speaker 1: have Yeah, I should say that because I have. You
Speaker 1: can have those that are extremes, and you can have
Speaker 1: those that it always stays pretty nice. I'm not sure
Speaker 1: you don't they you can get them where it's like
Speaker 1: very fine threads right or where it's sort of like
Speaker 1: uh like a usable thickness no matter where you are,
Speaker 1: where you can still find it against a dark object. Sure,
Speaker 1: but I think we're getting hung up. Yeah, um, well
Speaker 1: just one last comment there. If you have illuminated, it
Speaker 1: really helps. But anyway, um, there wasn't time to throw
Speaker 1: that on. But so anyway, I've got some issues here.
Speaker 1: So within I would say, let's kind of run down
Speaker 1: the timeline here. I have no idea there's a bear.
Speaker 1: Looking through binoculars, I see a bear, and then within
Speaker 1: I would say, within a probably a second, maybe a
Speaker 1: second and a half, that bear is eating the individual
Speaker 1: in front of me. Um, it's on top, just going
Speaker 1: to town. And I actually can't see describe what a
Speaker 1: grizzly bear eating your buddy looks like. Well, um, so
Speaker 1: there's so. I would say. When it was a couple
Speaker 1: maybe ten feet away from him is when I started
Speaker 1: scrambling to get a rifle. So I missed. I missed
Speaker 1: the the event where it smoked him, like you know J. J.
Speaker 1: Watt would like, you'd expect a linebacker just to blindside somebody.
Speaker 1: That's really about what happened. Um. And from my vantage
Speaker 1: point at this time, I can't see a human at all.
Speaker 1: I can see just a bear and I can't see
Speaker 1: the head, but I can see the neck muscles like
Speaker 1: it's devouring, right, So I can see like they're both
Speaker 1: looking away from me effectively so that the bears. I
Speaker 1: can see the bears rear and I can't see its head.
Speaker 1: Is your partner on his belly around his back, you know,
Speaker 1: tough dude, great, great reaction to everything. He actually got
Speaker 1: on his back, and what was going on at the
Speaker 1: time was he had stuck his left arm out trying
Speaker 1: to draw his side arm, which is in a shoulder holter.
Speaker 1: But the bear, it immediately just grabbed his hand. And
Speaker 1: so from from my perspective, I can't see any of that.
Speaker 1: I could just see a bear and I know my
Speaker 1: you know, my buddies underneath him, and so that's that's
Speaker 1: what I see. So I remember a couple like very
Speaker 1: cognitive decisions going through my head right The first one
Speaker 1: is how do we get away? The second one is,
Speaker 1: you know, we're not getting away? This is this is
Speaker 1: happening right now. And so I I grabbed the rifle,
Speaker 1: chambered around, threw the cover off, and brought it up,
Speaker 1: you know, to my cheek, and and uh, surprisingly, I
Speaker 1: remember like immediately finding the bear, you know, like you
Speaker 1: would think the bear and only the bear, you know.
Speaker 1: I think I must have been having like two eyes
Speaker 1: open or something. It's I seemed incredibly confident where I
Speaker 1: was aiming at that time, you know, especially incredibly confident.
Speaker 1: And I remember thinking to myself, like, well, I can't
Speaker 1: shoot here, which is where I would like to shoot,
Speaker 1: because I'm shooting you know, three D three hundred wind
Speaker 1: mag twitter and eighty five grain bullet at six yards
Speaker 1: ten yards and it's probably coming out the other side, right,
Speaker 1: so you don't want to you know, I didn't want
Speaker 1: to shoot there. And so what actually went through my
Speaker 1: head was, you know, if if I just shoot, the
Speaker 1: barrel probably gets booked and run off, which is well,
Speaker 1: we can get in that later. But so I remember
Speaker 1: just aiming where I thought kind of the vitals were,
Speaker 1: and I was like, well, I can't shoot here, so
Speaker 1: I just brought it up to kind of the higher
Speaker 1: part of its back. That's what I was kind of
Speaker 1: trying to explain video where I had an adrenaline running,
Speaker 1: but so I kind of brought it up higher on
Speaker 1: the back and just squeezed and she went off, and
Speaker 1: that that bear immediately let up turn earned and started
Speaker 1: charging me, and and I guess I would describe it
Speaker 1: as like, you know, the the film kind of changed, right,
Speaker 1: So at first it was this now this beautiful national
Speaker 1: geographic film of a bear kind of going going in
Speaker 1: for a kill, and then all of a sudden, it
Speaker 1: was like the Revenant where the bears angry, really angry,
Speaker 1: and so um, so the bear immediately starts letting up,
Speaker 1: which actually allows um, you know, the other guy to
Speaker 1: to to draw his side arm on his left hand,
Speaker 1: draw his side arm with his right and kind of
Speaker 1: get up while while discharging around, which was awesome. And
Speaker 1: I remember thinking to myself after the shot, Um, you know,
Speaker 1: I really hope that you know that the individuals live
Speaker 1: on the other side. And so I remember kind of
Speaker 1: looking around the bear and he was standing up and
Speaker 1: you know, like victory, right, and immediately followed by oh shit,
Speaker 1: now hold on when he's getting up he said, he
Speaker 1: discharged a shot too. He also did, Yes, so the
Speaker 1: bears between you guys, consider your location as you were
Speaker 1: of his location. Um, I think for sure. Honestly, he
Speaker 1: kept his wits real quite quite well. And he's got
Speaker 1: a ten millimeter pistol, you said, correct, correct, you know, Um,
Speaker 1: the sample size is very small. But there was a
Speaker 1: statistic floating around after these guys that just sort of
Speaker 1: meta analysis of all these bear encounters, and it was
Speaker 1: in context of spray versus pistols, And I do you
Speaker 1: guys remember this that pent of the time a firearm
Speaker 1: is discharged during a bear attack, it hits a person. Geez,
Speaker 1: it was a lot. That's crazy. I can think of
Speaker 1: like multiple stories of things just in the last few
Speaker 1: years of that happening. Well, I don't know, but like
Speaker 1: I said, man, it's like, how big is this saying?
Speaker 1: You know, I don't know. I don't know about I
Speaker 1: remember that was just that was out there floating around. Um. So,
Speaker 1: so back to the story. So the bears now charging
Speaker 1: me another you know, he discharged the one round and
Speaker 1: then I remember trying. Um, I basically took two steps back,
Speaker 1: and you know, actually after the incident, I listened to
Speaker 1: your guys podcast about you diving out of the way,
Speaker 1: Steve and and um who is the other individual, Alex
Speaker 1: maybe from Alex Messenger, the guy, the canoe guy. He
Speaker 1: also out of the way, Like you guys are crazy.
Speaker 1: My my philosophy was get on my back. So I
Speaker 1: dove to my back and I had my rifle basically
Speaker 1: kind of a front of my neck, and I stuck out.
Speaker 1: You know, I brought my foot up and I my
Speaker 1: philosophy was kind of a hail Mary, I'm gonna kick
Speaker 1: it in the face. I'm gonna kicking this out. There's
Speaker 1: no time to rack another round, no, I mean and
Speaker 1: and actually, UM, I think subconsciously I tried because like
Speaker 1: my my hand got jammed under my bolt which was out.
Speaker 1: So I had pulled the bolt out and hadn't even
Speaker 1: really been able to drive another round in. And so
Speaker 1: I'm on my back and the bears coming, jaw open, snapping,
Speaker 1: and you know, it gets to that last step and
Speaker 1: I kick and I just kind of mess and I
Speaker 1: hit something, you know, but I miss, I don't really
Speaker 1: hit anything solid, right, and um, and the bear now
Speaker 1: is all of a sudden kind of quartering away and
Speaker 1: you know, trying, trying almost I don't get away or
Speaker 1: circle around or or something. But something happened, right, So
Speaker 1: so the other digital follows the bear, you know, it
Speaker 1: gets um gets quite close. And when the bears kind
Speaker 1: of circling around or or making its way away, UM,
Speaker 1: he's looking at his his hand, which his thumb is
Speaker 1: quite quite mangled. UM. And and I see his pistol,
Speaker 1: and so I go and grab that pistol. And I'm
Speaker 1: thinking to myself, I'm not doing around two of this, UM,
Speaker 1: and so I put three more UM pop pop pop
Speaker 1: and uh and a real quick yeah. And the bear
Speaker 1: is not that far away when you're in the video, correct,
Speaker 1: And at that time the cubs were actually um and
Speaker 1: I kind of left that out. The cubs almost were
Speaker 1: near me almost the whole time. And so I am
Speaker 1: I'm kind of finishing off the bear with the cubs
Speaker 1: running past me to go to that south um, and
Speaker 1: the bear kind of was the what was the age
Speaker 1: class on the cubs? Um, the year cubs last year?
Speaker 1: You know, it's this year's cubs and they were real
Speaker 1: small um and so yeah, so um, effectively, you know,
Speaker 1: five rounds are fired, the situation is neutralized, and now
Speaker 1: it's time to kind of attend the medical situation because
Speaker 1: that's obviously the as. So the bear has been shot twice,
Speaker 1: it runs, you shoot a cup more times and then
Speaker 1: it does like piles up like dead or and dead
Speaker 1: or like piles up like and then rolls round for
Speaker 1: a long time. Um. There was no like, you know,
Speaker 1: like a death moan. People talk about death moans of bears.
Speaker 1: It really didn't do that. Um. So so just to
Speaker 1: kind of run through it, you know in fast you know,
Speaker 1: in fast motion, so maybe one or two seconds before
Speaker 1: the bear is on top of the other other individuals.
Speaker 1: The bear is shot, you know, probably half a second second. UM,
Speaker 1: well on top Um then immediately charges me. You can
Speaker 1: imagine how long that took. Maybe half a second or
Speaker 1: a second. And then it's trying to get away. The
Speaker 1: three other shots are fired. You know, I grabbed the pistol,
Speaker 1: fire three other shots, and the whole event I would
Speaker 1: say six to eight seconds from from not knowing there's
Speaker 1: a bear to firing the last round thinking to myself
Speaker 1: that did it. And and I would say the last
Speaker 1: round it kind of just buckled, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: It just you know when you hit something that you're like, okay,
Speaker 1: that hurt, you know. Um. And so so then the
Speaker 1: cubs go and they go and hang out on on
Speaker 1: that sell and uh. And so then we're kind of
Speaker 1: addressing the situation. And so UM, I go through my
Speaker 1: pack and another mistake we also, I don't have a
Speaker 1: I have a first aid kit back at camp right,
Speaker 1: I don't have any in my back, but I do
Speaker 1: have a spare set of woolf socks. And so we
Speaker 1: kind of put the thumb back in the where it's
Speaker 1: supposed to be, and and I wrapped one sock around
Speaker 1: real tight and almost tight like a knot or a splint,
Speaker 1: and then put the other sock over the top just
Speaker 1: to kind of apply pressure to the wound. UM, and
Speaker 1: then obviously keeping it elevated and whatnot. UM. Pretty much
Speaker 1: that whole area we did not have any cell service,
Speaker 1: but actually right on that ridge, UM, we were able
Speaker 1: to call nine one one and and uh explain the situation. UM.
Speaker 1: At that time they mentioned the helicopter or to get
Speaker 1: a helicopter, it would have come from Riverton, UM, which
Speaker 1: is little ways out, and they couldn't take off for
Speaker 1: another hour. So as you were talking, three or four
Speaker 1: hours before a helicopter would come. And really, if you
Speaker 1: looked at the you know, the scenery, it wasn't really
Speaker 1: somewhere you could land it nicely. Let's just say that.
Speaker 1: So we made the decision to ride out. UM. So
Speaker 1: UM we contacted the other UM a couple other folks
Speaker 1: in the hunting party, and they brought the horses down
Speaker 1: UM and we rode out, and uh we were met
Speaker 1: by a mirage of people that obviously at the trailhead. UM.
Speaker 1: You know, you got your game in fish UM Search
Speaker 1: and Rescue teams, helicopter that had landed the trailhead, um ambulance,
Speaker 1: so on and so forth. For it was actually, um,
Speaker 1: this is kind of a funny. Jim Zombo was there, um,
Speaker 1: just to see what's going on. Yeah, I'm not really sure.
Speaker 1: Um and uh, you know, it's kind of embarrassing probably
Speaker 1: on my my behalf. But another I that was there
Speaker 1: was like, hey, you know who this is? You know?
Speaker 1: And I look at him and no, I have no idea.
Speaker 1: I did not know who Jim Jumbo was at the time.
Speaker 1: But um, so anyway, I can't say i'd recognize him either.
Speaker 1: So just there would be like, what's going on? Um,
Speaker 1: he must live nearby. Yeah, I know he's in Northern Wyoming.
Speaker 1: He's playing the Captain Quint character. Like when you get there,
Speaker 1: he's like, I'll catch you a bear. Yeah, is your
Speaker 1: buddy real quick? Is your Is it just his hand
Speaker 1: that's messed up? Yes? So, um, it seemed like from
Speaker 1: my perspective that that took a long time, but I
Speaker 1: think it was quite quick. Um. And and yeah, um
Speaker 1: really the uh, the only the only real injury is
Speaker 1: the hand, um you know, I had. I actually had
Speaker 1: a little tiny scratch on my on my shin which
Speaker 1: I still have a little bit of a mark there,
Speaker 1: but from the bear, that's correct. Yeah, what's that do
Speaker 1: through nail? You know that that half and when I
Speaker 1: tried to kick and it tried to lunge. Are you
Speaker 1: just hoping it's the bear? Could have been it's a
Speaker 1: little it's it's really just it'll be gone. And it's
Speaker 1: like it'll be gone in six months. Right, it's not
Speaker 1: really scar but I would go see if someone could
Speaker 1: help me keep that. Um so you you made it
Speaker 1: to the trailhead. I'm really curious. On the hook for
Speaker 1: the helicopter. Um so there was um the individual um
Speaker 1: that that got that needed the quick medical attention actually
Speaker 1: had helicopter insurance. Um So not necessarily on the hook,
Speaker 1: but good timing. I guess purposely get it for that
Speaker 1: hard or you had it for work. He had had
Speaker 1: it for UM some time before. So um you know,
Speaker 1: you never you never know when you're gonna need it.
Speaker 1: But it makes you wonder if I had that, do
Speaker 1: you have that without knowing it? I wonder is it
Speaker 1: like a real specific that I don't know? I think
Speaker 1: I think we we have God that was somewhere when
Speaker 1: he when you thought he was being eaten barrows on
Speaker 1: top of him. Uh, what was what? What's his perspective?
Speaker 1: What was going on? Um? His perspective was kind of
Speaker 1: like that. It was playing with him like a dog almost, Yeah,
Speaker 1: mauling his thumb. Yeah. So it stayed on his hand
Speaker 1: as it grabbed his hand, grabbed his hand and pushed
Speaker 1: him down. It stayed with his hand in his mouth. Yeah,
Speaker 1: his hand was in its mouth the whole time, in
Speaker 1: her in her mouth yeah. Um. Maybe not even plural, um,
Speaker 1: but close, you know. Um. And it's what's amazing is
Speaker 1: no claws were used, right, I mean you would think
Speaker 1: that you got the leverage. You're the bear, You got
Speaker 1: the leverage. All you gotta do is stretch the stretch
Speaker 1: the arm out with one of your claws and you
Speaker 1: I mean, who knows, she probably would have gotten to
Speaker 1: that if you hadn't a shot or sure. Um so um.
Speaker 1: So that's kind of the um. That was the first
Speaker 1: run through, and that was kind of what I had
Speaker 1: learned and and I guess um went through the first time.
Speaker 1: Then then all of a sudden, now it's kind of
Speaker 1: what you're bringing. Now, now we gotta bring the game
Speaker 1: and fish back, um to to evaluate the situation as
Speaker 1: as everyone would know and understand. And so yeah, uh
Speaker 1: this just for listeners, this is a the grizzly bear
Speaker 1: in the Rocky Mountains and lower forty eight is listed
Speaker 1: as threatened and has endangered species at protections, which means that, um,
Speaker 1: if you kill one, they're going to make sure that
Speaker 1: it was legal. And it's like obviously legal to kill
Speaker 1: one in defensive life, but they're still gonna come check
Speaker 1: it out. And I believe that's the only reason that
Speaker 1: you can kill it defensive property right or game or
Speaker 1: anything like that. So UM, so we ride in. UM
Speaker 1: there's uh, four folks from the state that come in. UM.
Speaker 1: There's a biologist, um I think kind of an apprentice.
Speaker 1: There's the game warden for that region, and then his supervisor. UM.
Speaker 1: So we ride in about six miles so it took
Speaker 1: about it was about six miles there one way. UM.
Speaker 1: So we ride in six miles UM and then I
Speaker 1: basically reenact what happened, UM, and and it was you know,
Speaker 1: pretty clear, there was blood trails and and things like that.
Speaker 1: And actually when we arrived, UM, you know, the cubs
Speaker 1: were still there. UM. So we we they have to
Speaker 1: do an investigation. So, um, we needed to remove the
Speaker 1: cubs from the from the sow in order to perform
Speaker 1: the investigation. It's in the news that they euthanize the cubs. Um.
Speaker 1: And so I go through, I kind of uh, you know,
Speaker 1: run through, reenact my position, reenact to the other individual's position,
Speaker 1: and kind of follow, you know, where the bear had
Speaker 1: come from and and gone, and you know, the whole
Speaker 1: just to kind of paint the radius for the listeners.
Speaker 1: You know. Um, it starts maybe ten or fifteen yards
Speaker 1: to to to my right and ends maybe ten or
Speaker 1: fifteen yards to my left. So the whole thing, I mean,
Speaker 1: the whole situation is a thirty yard line. I mean
Speaker 1: it's very close quarters. Um. And so I wonder above
Speaker 1: treeline again, so it's it's all clear field of view,
Speaker 1: not a lot of brush, not a lot of deadfall.
Speaker 1: There is, um, you know, where where the grizzly died
Speaker 1: was kind of the beginning of the timber line, but
Speaker 1: it was a burned area, so it's kind of uh,
Speaker 1: you know, it's easy to see, but that's where. So
Speaker 1: it was kind of a burned area. Just to paint
Speaker 1: the picture. Um, And so UM, one thing they wanted
Speaker 1: is they wanted to find some brass for the for
Speaker 1: the investigation, if you will. UM. And so I knew
Speaker 1: there were five five rounds. UM. The rifle was obviously
Speaker 1: easy one to find. UM. And UM we only found
Speaker 1: one one of the pistol rounds. But one of the
Speaker 1: the one pistol round that we found, UM was actually
Speaker 1: UM kind of covered in blood. So the casing was
Speaker 1: covered in blood, which, UM, it's kind of interesting and
Speaker 1: we can kind of I think I have some ideas
Speaker 1: of where that came from. UM. And then and then
Speaker 1: the next step in the the the investigation, if you will,
Speaker 1: is to really you know, go look at the story
Speaker 1: and then look at you know, the the evidence or
Speaker 1: or the I guess, the makeup of the bear. How
Speaker 1: long is this whole like investigation procedure taking. Are they
Speaker 1: all like detail business oriented like taking their time or um? Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's pretty thorough. Um, you know, it's obviously it's not
Speaker 1: something that happens every day. I think they mentioned that
Speaker 1: I was the fifth um that year. Um. However, it
Speaker 1: was the first bear recovered. So I don't know if
Speaker 1: that means that somebody got attacked and got away. I
Speaker 1: don't know, and I don't know if that means, you know,
Speaker 1: shot was fired to the bear. I'm not really sure
Speaker 1: what that means. But um, you know, the the ride
Speaker 1: obviously took the longest amount you know, you're twelve miles
Speaker 1: round trip, um. But the investigation, I mean it took
Speaker 1: you know, hours, um and right there, Yeah, I I
Speaker 1: assisted in that, so you know, it's kind of from
Speaker 1: my perspective, it was kind of um, you know, it
Speaker 1: was kind of neat to be a part of that,
Speaker 1: you know, because you know, you you know how it
Speaker 1: played out, right, and then so then you can see,
Speaker 1: you know, where the individual bullets landed on that, on
Speaker 1: that bear, and you can kind of then start to
Speaker 1: put the pieces together on like why did this happen?
Speaker 1: Why did it play out that way? Why did the
Speaker 1: bear um change direction and not lunge at me at
Speaker 1: that last second? Right um? And so there were some
Speaker 1: things that were really really evident, um. And so skinning
Speaker 1: out the bear, you know, I mean the first thing
Speaker 1: that was remarkable and it's obvious kind of when you
Speaker 1: say it out loud now, but the difference in damage
Speaker 1: from the three wind bag to the ten millimeter right
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a high powered rifle versus a handgun, right,
Speaker 1: so you obviously expect a lot more. But so let's
Speaker 1: let's kind of talk about the the individual bullets. Right.
Speaker 1: So the the shot with the rifle had entered um
Speaker 1: kind of upper mid but the right side of the
Speaker 1: back of the of the bear, and the exit hole
Speaker 1: was kind of out near the neck front front, right quarter,
Speaker 1: and the exit hole was quite large. UM. And so
Speaker 1: that's the first thing that you're kind of like, well,
Speaker 1: I'm glad that exit hole didn't you know, contact anybody. UM,
Speaker 1: And you know that's um. But UM. Then then we
Speaker 1: kind of started looking for more more bullet holes just
Speaker 1: to see, um, you know, play it out and so
Speaker 1: zipping out you know, more of the more of the hide. UM.
Speaker 1: There were two ten millimeter rounds that had passed UM
Speaker 1: through are the kind of like almost gut shots really UM.
Speaker 1: And you know, when you're shooting a running animal in
Speaker 1: a couple of yards, you never know, so there's a
Speaker 1: kind of it was basically a clean pass you know,
Speaker 1: kind of you know, a rear gut shot that kind
Speaker 1: of came out the other side, and then another one
Speaker 1: that kind of came out the other side, so like
Speaker 1: kind of quartering away gut shots, if you will. Two
Speaker 1: of those passed all the way through, all the way
Speaker 1: through um and what do they look like? There was
Speaker 1: a lot of trauma there or so those were using
Speaker 1: those buffalo boar rounds, which you know deep penetration and
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of people talk about deep
Speaker 1: penetration and whatnot. And one thing in the brain, another
Speaker 1: thing in the right soft parts, right right, and so
Speaker 1: you know, originally we found those three shots, and everybody
Speaker 1: knows they're gonna punch it right between the eyes, right.
Speaker 1: I mean, when you're like getting already, you're like a
Speaker 1: long I hit him right head exactly right. And so
Speaker 1: every you know, we found those three shots originally, and
Speaker 1: you know, I kind of I was thinking of myself,
Speaker 1: there's gotta be more, right, like you know, and I
Speaker 1: know we shot five times, and so I kept carving
Speaker 1: away and I actually found another one that was almost
Speaker 1: like dead center of the back in the vertebrae, and
Speaker 1: it kind of like got lodged in the vertebrae, and
Speaker 1: like I don't know if I got tracked, you know,
Speaker 1: like there's like a hollow area there and kind of
Speaker 1: got lodged in there. I kind of thing that was
Speaker 1: the one that clammed it up, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: almost paralyzing it the final shot there um. But you know,
Speaker 1: so so that's really um did you find the last shot? Um?
Speaker 1: You know it could have been on there um. Sometimes
Speaker 1: it's hard to see through fat when there's not a
Speaker 1: lot of trauma and you have just a bullet, you know,
Speaker 1: a bullet hole. Um, it's just you're you're searching for
Speaker 1: quite a small target and you know, we're not really
Speaker 1: caping this thing out. We're not saving a cape or
Speaker 1: anything like that. So it's not like it's a nice
Speaker 1: clean you know. And I don't get the impression with
Speaker 1: the spine shot you were like, oh, here's this massive
Speaker 1: broken spine on this bear. No, it was clearly so
Speaker 1: that one we found an entrance hole. And uh, I
Speaker 1: mean the Game of Fish had a metal detector and
Speaker 1: we're trying to like find the bullet and carve it
Speaker 1: out and whatnot. We never found anything, but um, we
Speaker 1: didn't spend a ton of time on it. We also
Speaker 1: didn't really have the right tools. They brought a melo detector,
Speaker 1: they did. You know, me and my six year old
Speaker 1: just got a melod detector. We're gonna get into that
Speaker 1: big time. I'll save that for another episode though, sure sure,
Speaker 1: um and so uh yeah. So those are the four
Speaker 1: bullet holes that we found. There could have been another
Speaker 1: one kind of in the back or in a fatty air.
Speaker 1: You know, these guys taken note of all this stuff.
Speaker 1: You know, they're taking a lot of pictures and notes
Speaker 1: and collecting samples and um, doing stuff that's you know
Speaker 1: that I'm not really paying that much attention to. You
Speaker 1: gotta still be a little razzled. Is that a word? Razzle? Yeah?
Speaker 1: The same day, same day, Yeah, same day, long as day.
Speaker 1: I hapened right away in the morning. I mean it happened.
Speaker 1: I think it was like some fifteen am rolled out,
Speaker 1: rolled back in again. I'm a little surprised that they
Speaker 1: kind of put you back into that situation after going
Speaker 1: through that, I would say, they didn't put me in
Speaker 1: that situation, you know, And they weren't. I mean they
Speaker 1: are certainly actually they I got a lot of respect
Speaker 1: for the folks that we worked with. I mean they
Speaker 1: were they were very good about it and very did
Speaker 1: you professional and did you get a sense of like
Speaker 1: their attitude like oh no, not again, or like they're like,
Speaker 1: you know what kind of how they felt about the
Speaker 1: whole like grizzlies in general and probably not. But you know,
Speaker 1: I think they were real professional about it. You know,
Speaker 1: um yeah, nobody likes nobody likes um. You know, they
Speaker 1: were certainly more excited to investigate a dead bear than
Speaker 1: a dead human. You know. Their thing is it's got
Speaker 1: to set the mood when you have an injured person.
Speaker 1: Were they're not going into it like these guys panic,
Speaker 1: Sure he shot at forty yards away just because I
Speaker 1: was looking at Yeah, you got like a wounded dude,
Speaker 1: so probably you're probably going to not so much with
Speaker 1: your like, uh you know, inspector mode. Right. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: was just curious if it's like, oh, the's like if
Speaker 1: they had yeah at the trail, had did they split
Speaker 1: you guys up and get each story? Um? I mean
Speaker 1: it was such a cut and dry story, you know,
Speaker 1: like like Steve says, you know you've got a guy
Speaker 1: with with with a bite. You know, obviously you're close
Speaker 1: if you're getting bit um. I do believe they took
Speaker 1: a DNA sample of the bite to match it to
Speaker 1: the bear. Umi, a friend of mine who was a journalist.
Speaker 1: He was always when he was interviewing people who were
Speaker 1: involved and stuff like this, he was always, Um. One
Speaker 1: of the things he would look for is anytime someone
Speaker 1: said and then I proceeded to he said that that
Speaker 1: always sort of made like a little alarm and his
Speaker 1: head go off, like they had thought about what they're
Speaker 1: gonna say, ahead, it's out, and then I proceed you
Speaker 1: to do. And you said, you'd be surprised. How often
Speaker 1: do you hear that when you're hearing a story, that
Speaker 1: maybe everything doesn't add up right right? Um? So you
Speaker 1: know that that was, Um, that was kind of the investigation.
Speaker 1: So as you know, they took recording of what I
Speaker 1: you know, me going through the motions. Um. You know,
Speaker 1: the bear was kind of dissected, um, and you know
Speaker 1: each shot was kind of analyzed. Now, they took a
Speaker 1: bunch of pictures and documentation and whatnot. I didn't, um,
Speaker 1: you know, I didn't really know if that was my place,
Speaker 1: you know, per se did they impound your weapons? They
Speaker 1: keep your No, they did not, um you know it
Speaker 1: the day I'm sure impounded your bear hide right. Um.
Speaker 1: They actually kind of just destroy everything, um, you know,
Speaker 1: and yeah, I respect that. I mean, you know you're not.
Speaker 1: Oh they're taking they're taking the hide, so nobody else
Speaker 1: does you didn't? No, no, Um, you know it's pretty
Speaker 1: they're they're pretty strict about you know. Um, everything's got
Speaker 1: to be destroyed or you know, there's no there's no trophies. Right.
Speaker 1: Let me tell you a quick story. Understand, tell a
Speaker 1: quick story. In Alaska, they auction all that stuff off.
Speaker 1: So they have these like personal like bears killed for
Speaker 1: property defense, like life and property defense. Um, when you
Speaker 1: kill one, you guess sam at the hide and school
Speaker 1: and they have an auction. I know about a guy
Speaker 1: that skinned his like he did. He skinned his like
Speaker 1: the gutless method and split it up the back. I
Speaker 1: don't know why. Okay, he went to the auction. They
Speaker 1: got all these damn bears and there's only one so
Speaker 1: he can know which one to say skinned up. I
Speaker 1: don't know if he was gaming it at the time.
Speaker 1: That's just how he did because they said bring the hide,
Speaker 1: So whatever reason, he made a slip the back and
Speaker 1: somebody got to hide off the thing went to the auction.
Speaker 1: God his bear and he said he knew it because like,
Speaker 1: who else would do that? That's what I heard. I
Speaker 1: don't know the guy, but I heard the story. It
Speaker 1: could be like a live story. I don't think it's
Speaker 1: a lie story. Yeah, I do recall, um specifically the skull, right. Um.
Speaker 1: The supervisor there was and they all feel really bad
Speaker 1: about everything, you know, I mean they're they're super understanding
Speaker 1: and yeah, and he was kind of like, you know,
Speaker 1: I hate to tell you this, but I need you
Speaker 1: to to give me the skull. You know, my hands
Speaker 1: already dirty, and I'm just curious. Right, So I got
Speaker 1: it all out and scutted a lot of it out,
Speaker 1: and so I cut the head off for him and
Speaker 1: handed it to him. And they destroyed it with like
Speaker 1: hatchets or hammers or something like that, just to destroy value,
Speaker 1: just to Yeah, I mean, which, whatever did you end up?
Speaker 1: I have a problem. I understand all that. Like, sorry,
Speaker 1: you end up getting an age on the bear? Um.
Speaker 1: You know there's gonna be an official report on it. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm not able to get my hands on
Speaker 1: it for for some time, but I'm I'm thinking that
Speaker 1: will all be in there, and I'm curious to read
Speaker 1: it for sure. Yeah. No, they're collecting a lot of data.
Speaker 1: Did the UM what what wound up being the relationship
Speaker 1: you have with the end of the guy that was
Speaker 1: getting his hand mauled up? M Um, like like what
Speaker 1: kind of happened when you guys had a chance to talk? Um,
Speaker 1: you know is kind of a sombering, sombering moment for everybody.
Speaker 1: You know, UM is you know is uh is once
Speaker 1: in a lifetime experience. UM. You know, I think we hope,
Speaker 1: we hope. UM, you know, we built a lot of
Speaker 1: respect for each other, you know, in the way that
Speaker 1: the situation was handled, and um as he uh was
Speaker 1: is he pretty rattled about it? Was he pretty strong
Speaker 1: about it? That he was really strong about it? I mean,
Speaker 1: Um'm not afraid of the mountains. No, no, no, you've
Speaker 1: got any different feelings about Grizzly bearer country besides some
Speaker 1: procedural ship No, UM, you know, I got a lot
Speaker 1: more respect for the animal, that's for sure. UM. I definitely,
Speaker 1: UM yeah, I definitely have a lot more respect for
Speaker 1: forum grizzly bears. And you know, my my mentality of
Speaker 1: um staying out of those situations and having different equipment
Speaker 1: and different um locations of equipment will will be will
Speaker 1: be changed where it was on the outside of my pack.
Speaker 1: Did you ever think about grabbing it? Um? Hold on
Speaker 1: like outside of the pack, like unreachable reach on the
Speaker 1: waist belt like right here? Do you ever think about
Speaker 1: grabbing it? I didn't. I mean, like in hindsight, UM,
Speaker 1: I would say at the moment, the thought process was
Speaker 1: the rifle is the job, you know, I mean it's
Speaker 1: kind of like, what are you gonna blind everybody here
Speaker 1: and hope for the best? You know. Um, I didn't
Speaker 1: spend I didn't do well much time thinking I'm gonna
Speaker 1: go after my bear spray, you know what I mean? UM,
Speaker 1: had that been sixty yards out, yeah, reolutely I think
Speaker 1: I would like to think that. I think my first
Speaker 1: choice at sixty yards out in that situation would have
Speaker 1: been bear spray. So no one what you now know?
Speaker 1: What would be your like, what's your bear protection system
Speaker 1: the next time you do it? Um? So before that incident,
Speaker 1: you know, I really I really had this UM this
Speaker 1: I'll say it false mentality that you know, if you
Speaker 1: if you shot a bear with let's say like a
Speaker 1: forty five a CP or something like that, you know,
Speaker 1: like it would realize that it's, um, it's up against
Speaker 1: a real match here, and it would probably deter it
Speaker 1: and leave after shooting it with a three windmag and
Speaker 1: watching it charge like a a very piste off animal. Um,
Speaker 1: bigger the better for if you have to shoot um first,
Speaker 1: First of all, question on that could when you guys
Speaker 1: did the netcrops see did you got it to see?
Speaker 1: When you said that the the path of that went,
Speaker 1: did it cut? Did you catch vitals on that? I
Speaker 1: personally gutted it. Um. The heart was fine, The lungs
Speaker 1: looks fine, the liver looks fine. The intestines which the
Speaker 1: bullets passed through. I never even saw split in that.
Speaker 1: So you're three hundred wind bagground went above the vitals,
Speaker 1: above the vitals. Yeah so um, so actually didn't happen.
Speaker 1: We didn't really put this all together t you know,
Speaker 1: obviously then the whole thing's done. Right now, we're the
Speaker 1: we're back in camp and we're talking about how crazy
Speaker 1: the event was, and you know a couple of takeaways there.
Speaker 1: You know, we just started talking about, um, you know,
Speaker 1: the just the odds of the to two sets of odds,
Speaker 1: right first set, you know the odds of getting in
Speaker 1: that situation incredibly unlucky to get in that situation right
Speaker 1: and and you know the only thing I could think
Speaker 1: of is the bear had winded that carcass and was
Speaker 1: made be making its way there and then got like
Speaker 1: a burst of scent, was starving, ready to eat, and
Speaker 1: just came ready to came over that tailtop, just ready
Speaker 1: to eat. Um. So it's obviously very unlucky timing. Had
Speaker 1: we sit up on that knob for ten more minutes,
Speaker 1: you might see a bit aware of it and was
Speaker 1: circling it, trying to figure off as a big board
Speaker 1: there or whatever something. You know. Um, it is hard
Speaker 1: to Um, you'll never know. You'll never know that. But
Speaker 1: obviously no stomach contents undigested help meat. Oh um, that's
Speaker 1: a great point. I did not open the stomach. Um.
Speaker 1: I don't know if anybody else there did. Did you
Speaker 1: guys ever take a look at the carcass afterward to
Speaker 1: see if it had been it hadn't been messed. No,
Speaker 1: you have like you don't have to, but you gotta
Speaker 1: be like there has been some relationship. Is the relationship
Speaker 1: that predators like to travel on ridgelines or they like
Speaker 1: to travel on nicely defined trails. You know, I would
Speaker 1: think that the you know that the bear had winded
Speaker 1: the carcass and had just been working its way that
Speaker 1: direction thinking, you know, I'm hungry, there's something here, um,
Speaker 1: and so so I really think that, you know, that's
Speaker 1: what kind of brought it to the general vicinity. Um.
Speaker 1: The tracks of the animal for the last hundred yards
Speaker 1: indicated that it knew we were there and kind of
Speaker 1: followed us along the back side of that ridge and
Speaker 1: popped over when we were when it was close and
Speaker 1: we were close. Yeah, Um, So it wasn't like we
Speaker 1: stumbled into it and it was it was defensive. You know,
Speaker 1: it seemed like it was it smelled us and was starving.
Speaker 1: A bad news organization would say when the hunter becomes
Speaker 1: the hunt. So going back to going back to what
Speaker 1: we're kind of talking about it. You know, back at camp,
Speaker 1: you know, the odds of the situation were incredibly unlucky
Speaker 1: or low and unlucky. How do you want to look
Speaker 1: at it? Then, once we were in that situation with
Speaker 1: the bear coming, you know at ten fifteen yards, I
Speaker 1: don't know another situation that plays out that ends up
Speaker 1: better than that. You know, Um, when it bears on
Speaker 1: top of somebody you know, had had you know, a
Speaker 1: shot landed a little bit differently, you know, does it.
Speaker 1: There's just a lot of different Like it's fame could
Speaker 1: have punctured his brain pan, it could have like just
Speaker 1: severed its spine with its claw. Right, there's just I
Speaker 1: mean I look at that and I think if I
Speaker 1: redid that nine out of ten times, I think nine
Speaker 1: of them are really bad. You know. Um, your friend
Speaker 1: uh said that his perspective was that the bear was
Speaker 1: playing with him. At what point did his perspective change?
Speaker 1: Did he ever talk about that? Um? I would say
Speaker 1: after that, I mean once that rifle shot went off,
Speaker 1: you know, it let up, you know, I mean, so
Speaker 1: then it kind of its focus changed, um to coming
Speaker 1: coming towards me. Um, and really, um, you know kind
Speaker 1: of kind of putting all those pieces together back at
Speaker 1: camp actually is when we kind of put it all
Speaker 1: together where um what what what I think happened was,
Speaker 1: you know, obviously incredible unlucky timing. The bear comes and
Speaker 1: not really in a hurry, not really threatened, just ready
Speaker 1: to eat, and so it's kind of taken its time, um,
Speaker 1: starts doing its job, gets hit in the back, um
Speaker 1: and kind of you know, the the rifle shot really
Speaker 1: rendered the front right useless. I mean, it just it
Speaker 1: detached a lot of those muscles right, just kind of
Speaker 1: hamburgered this area. And then it it went and turned
Speaker 1: around and charged full speed to accelerate. You know, if
Speaker 1: you kind of look at the anatomy of the animal,
Speaker 1: it's it's gonna use its high and legs to really
Speaker 1: drive and start start running. And what it seemed to
Speaker 1: me is it went to lunge there at the last second,
Speaker 1: and it went to my I left, which would would
Speaker 1: line up perfectly with its right shoulder failed, so it
Speaker 1: basically went to push off. And when it went to
Speaker 1: push off one side, you know, just pushed it that
Speaker 1: direction and it probably swiped bit I kicked. We collided
Speaker 1: in some manner, but not really hard at all, And
Speaker 1: that was the mental change of the bear for it
Speaker 1: to realize I've lost some motor skills. And then it
Speaker 1: was heading out and then it was probably trying to
Speaker 1: get into a safe zone. But you know, at that time,
Speaker 1: I didn't even know if I hit the bear, you know,
Speaker 1: I mean I think I did, but I could have
Speaker 1: shot clean over the top of it. And you know,
Speaker 1: I have no idea what's exactly going. I don't No
Speaker 1: one knows, as much as we like to talk about it,
Speaker 1: no one knows what they would do in that situation.
Speaker 1: I like to think that I would have done what
Speaker 1: you did and shot some more. Ye like the point
Speaker 1: of commitment, unless you're like one of these guys that
Speaker 1: like it's it mauled me and then it kind of
Speaker 1: wanted off, and then it came back and alled me
Speaker 1: some more. You know. Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: it was just really an impulse decision. And looking back,
Speaker 1: you know, it's kind of like, well, that bear bite somebody.
Speaker 1: I think they're probably gonna take DNA sample, try and
Speaker 1: find the bear and probably put the bear down anyway.
Speaker 1: You know, I know it's been hit because why else
Speaker 1: would it not have just completely killed me right there?
Speaker 1: So you already have an injured animal, it's already known
Speaker 1: to have bite somebody. Let's just finish the job right here.
Speaker 1: You know, that was and I don't even think I
Speaker 1: went through that process. I think my process was more
Speaker 1: like I have no idea how we just came out
Speaker 1: of that, But I'm not going for around two. Yeah,
Speaker 1: how's your buddy's hands? Uh? Remarkable? Um, you know, I
Speaker 1: mean the doctor kind of mentioned, you know, it's infection
Speaker 1: that really is the problem, you know, um, And so
Speaker 1: an hour more later that becomes a much different animal.
Speaker 1: Did you notice this story for another time? But I
Speaker 1: have a very similar bear circumstance and nothing ever happened
Speaker 1: with it other than bears ran away. But it was
Speaker 1: related to a ridgeline. It was related to elk carcass Um.
Speaker 1: Did you notice One of the things that I noticed
Speaker 1: being that close to bears was the smell of him.
Speaker 1: Did you do you have any like recognition of a
Speaker 1: distinct smell of a bear, because that's something that I
Speaker 1: took away. I was like, holy cow, this the smell
Speaker 1: of a bear? Man? Was you know? I didn't um
Speaker 1: that that does not come to mind. Ums, that's not
Speaker 1: what you're thinking. Yeah, I wasn't thinking let's go smell
Speaker 1: the roses here, you know, I mean, um, you know, um, yeah,
Speaker 1: I would say that I don't recall a smell from
Speaker 1: that incident. Yeah. Well, man, I'm glad you're alive. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: give Matt millarda hug for me, I will. I will
Speaker 1: tell him, tell him that I'm glad he's alive and
Speaker 1: your body I'm glad he's doing good for sure? For sure.
Speaker 1: You know, I got one last question. For sure. It's
Speaker 1: a hard one to answer. Are you glad it happened? Um?
Speaker 1: You know that the experience obviously when it's when it's
Speaker 1: a um, when it's a good story whenever. What I
Speaker 1: mean by good is when everybody came away. Okay, you know,
Speaker 1: I mean some injuries for sure, but you know nobody
Speaker 1: nobody is you know, crippled, nobody, you know, nothing like that.
Speaker 1: And so I mean, I definitely appreciate the experience. If
Speaker 1: you told me would would you go into um, what
Speaker 1: would you go into that situation again? And um, how
Speaker 1: how do I weard this? Um? The same scenario doesn't
Speaker 1: necessarily play out, but you get to redo that situation.
Speaker 1: I would say no, absolutely no, Like I can't tell
Speaker 1: you what's gonna happen, but a bear will be on somebody. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I would absolutely not do that again, UM, because I
Speaker 1: think that the probability is so low of the outcome
Speaker 1: that we got, UM, that that is that that that
Speaker 1: wouldn't be worth it for sure, UM, you know being
Speaker 1: the problem being that you know, the the outcome that
Speaker 1: we got. UM, I can appreciate the experience for sure. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, I think one thing that you just never consider,
Speaker 1: and you know this is every bear story is unique,
Speaker 1: you know obviously, Um, but you know this one's unique
Speaker 1: for different reasons. And the one thing that you know
Speaker 1: you mentioned, everyone thinks, so I'll shoot square in the eye,
Speaker 1: you know, square in the square between the eyes, you know,
Speaker 1: And um, you know, the one thing that I never
Speaker 1: considered was not only am I not going to be
Speaker 1: able to like get a good shot, but there there'sn't
Speaker 1: there's instances out there where you can like actually not
Speaker 1: shoot the vitals, you know what I mean. Like I
Speaker 1: would have loved to put that bullet and gave that
Speaker 1: Barrett Texas heart shot and hope for you know, blow
Speaker 1: out every right. And that's um, you know that that's
Speaker 1: that really changes the game. Um, just because had you
Speaker 1: been using a much smaller caliber. For instance, let's say
Speaker 1: I did have a side arm there, I would have
Speaker 1: gone for the side arm just out of habit. And
Speaker 1: that's what you think you should do, and you could
Speaker 1: probably get more shots off and so on and so forth,
Speaker 1: but you might be pretty scratched up right now too.
Speaker 1: I mean, that side arm is not going to take
Speaker 1: that quarter out. You know, it might it made you
Speaker 1: something differently, but I don't think that. You know, the
Speaker 1: side arm is gonna turn Hamburger into a quarter of
Speaker 1: that bear and render render that part of the very useless.
Speaker 1: I wish we had these little awards, said, uh the
Speaker 1: Mediator podcast Nerve of Steel Award. Well, I'd give you one. Well,
Speaker 1: I I sure don't think you would, because you know
Speaker 1: all the listeners are gonna hear that video about steel
Speaker 1: feels like a best possible outcome certificate. Yeah, but you
Speaker 1: got the best possible outcome in the world of probabilities.
Speaker 1: That that one. That one I'll take. Um, I got
Speaker 1: a guy I work with. It always uses the line
Speaker 1: and rather be lucky than good. That's one of those,
Speaker 1: for sure. That's how you're feeling right now. That's one
Speaker 1: of those, for sure. Well, thanks for coming on. Appreciate it.
Speaker 1: I appreciate it, man, very instructive. It reinforces uh, my
Speaker 1: primary theory about bear attacks having never uh is uh. Well,
Speaker 1: I think it's something like I'm quoting Joe Rogan, who
Speaker 1: is quoting so one else, which is, um, everybody's got
Speaker 1: a plan until they get punched in the face. That
Speaker 1: was that Mike Tison I was remember hearing it from him.
Speaker 1: But yeah, everybody's got planned till they get punched in
Speaker 1: the face. It's very accurate, alright man, Thanks a lot,
Speaker 1: Thanks John,