Speaker 1: Honestly, I just want the obsessiveness to stop. Yes, of
Speaker 1: course I want to lose the weight, and I want
Speaker 1: to be happy in my body. I want all these
Speaker 1: different things that are conflicting, but the obsessed. If that
Speaker 1: could just quiet, like my mind could quiet, and I
Speaker 1: could just stop thinking about it, that would be the
Speaker 1: most ideal, because there are very dark days when I
Speaker 1: can't get out of my head. Hey, everyone, welcome back
Speaker 1: to a very special episode of On Purpose. This episode
Speaker 1: is brought to you by better Help Online Therapy and
Speaker 1: today I'm joined by Hess Joe, licensed marriage and family
Speaker 1: therapist and head of clinical Operations at Better Help. And
Speaker 1: in this new monthly series, we will be serving real
Speaker 1: listeners of the show and you'll hear their stories, the
Speaker 1: things they struggle with, and to get to sit in
Speaker 1: on a real therapy session with the intention of letting
Speaker 1: you know that you're not alone or all struggling with something,
Speaker 1: even if we never show it. And our goal is
Speaker 1: to bring more awareness to taking care of your mental
Speaker 1: health and provide everyone the tools, resources and encouragement they
Speaker 1: need to heal their past for a bright future. Now,
Speaker 1: the reason that I wanted to do this was because
Speaker 1: I saw so many family members who were still triggered
Speaker 1: by therapy. Therapy is still has stigma in certain cultures
Speaker 1: and backgrounds certain places around the world. It's not been normalized.
Speaker 1: And I started to notice that one of the biggest
Speaker 1: reasons was because people had never sat in a therapy session.
Speaker 1: They were somewhat scared about it, they were somewhat apprehensive
Speaker 1: towards it. And we can often be like that. We
Speaker 1: can see videos of pretty much anything in the world today.
Speaker 1: Even if you've never been to a country or you've
Speaker 1: never done an activity, chances are you can find it
Speaker 1: somewhere and watch it. But it's very rare to be
Speaker 1: invited into a therapy session because they're so personal and vulnerable.
Speaker 1: And that's why I want to give us special thanks
Speaker 1: to our very special guest today, Jamie, who's been so
Speaker 1: kind enough to allow us into this space to allow
Speaker 1: us to hear her story as an open book. As Airsue,
Speaker 1: our incredible therapist, guides her through this discussion. So please
Speaker 1: give Jamie a big, warm welcome. Jamie, thank you for
Speaker 1: being here, Thank you for doing this as Sue, Thank
Speaker 1: you for being here, thank you for doing this, Thanks
Speaker 1: for having me really grateful to both of you for
Speaker 1: making time. You know, it's been a long term intention
Speaker 1: of mine to want to help people find more tools
Speaker 1: and resources. And the fact that we get to have
Speaker 1: this on the podcast where anyone and everyone who's listening
Speaker 1: or watching can get to sit in on someone else's
Speaker 1: therapy session hopefully to find their own path is really
Speaker 1: really important. So he's who I'm going to hand over
Speaker 1: to you. We're in your trusted hands. I'm going to
Speaker 1: be everyone listening and watching. I'm going to be you
Speaker 1: in this scenario. So I'm going to be observing, listening,
Speaker 1: taking mental notes, reflecting, and then sharing my reflections at
Speaker 1: the end as well. So ash over to you. Thank
Speaker 1: you Jamie for coming here. And it leads me to
Speaker 1: often the very first question that most people will hear
Speaker 1: in the therapy room, like what brings you to therapy today?
Speaker 1: I have, for a very long time struggled with an
Speaker 1: eating disorder, probably since I was seven or eight. I
Speaker 1: started to feel sort of the repercussions of a family member,
Speaker 1: my mom being the person. It's something that I've always
Speaker 1: struggled with, and I would say in the past two
Speaker 1: years it got much worse. I think being in the
Speaker 1: pandemic and the idea that we didn't see people. And
Speaker 1: so when the world started to slowly open up, putting
Speaker 1: on clothes got really hard, more so than you know,
Speaker 1: what I was wearing all day every day. And so
Speaker 1: that's one sort of depression set in a lot deeper
Speaker 1: than it ever has been. And yeah, it's been a
Speaker 1: hard couple of years. Yeah, I mean hard several years. Right. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean you mentioned that this disordered eating began at
Speaker 1: seven years old. That's very young. Can you tell me
Speaker 1: a little bit more about how you know that something
Speaker 1: about the way you were eating was different at such
Speaker 1: a young age. Yeah, I mean, you know, I think
Speaker 1: it was a lot of comments that sort of came
Speaker 1: at me in terms of you shouldn't be eating this,
Speaker 1: or you should be eating this. Even at seven, I
Speaker 1: think I started to notice other people's bodies and notice
Speaker 1: that I was developing before them. And I know that
Speaker 1: seven years old as a young age to notice that,
Speaker 1: but I think I just always felt bigger in some way.
Speaker 1: And when I have this very visual memory of wearing
Speaker 1: the same outfit as one of my close friends and
Speaker 1: wearing a top that showed our stomachs and feeling as
Speaker 1: if I just like I wasn't good enough within my body,
Speaker 1: and so it's been a struggle in multiple ways since then.
Speaker 1: Early on, you are already getting messaging of labeling of
Speaker 1: foods this is good, this is bad, and if I
Speaker 1: eat a bad food. I don't know if you're getting
Speaker 1: the messaging, but I think a lot of kids start
Speaker 1: feeling if I'm eating bad food, I'm a bad person,
Speaker 1: and that can spiral into so many different things. Can
Speaker 1: you tell me a little bit more about the actual
Speaker 1: eating habits that you have challenges with, Like would you
Speaker 1: say it's under eating overeating? My eating habits are more
Speaker 1: in sort of the Orthorrex Yeah, sort of way of eating,
Speaker 1: which is more just like I'm very cognizant of eating
Speaker 1: healthy or what I deem healthy and the idea that
Speaker 1: certain foods are bad. And so I have a lot
Speaker 1: of shame around food. And so I would say that
Speaker 1: how many hours awake that I am throughout the day,
Speaker 1: there is usually a time period in which I'm thinking
Speaker 1: about my next meal. Should I be eating this? I
Speaker 1: actually really want this, but like, this isn't going to
Speaker 1: help me get to the place that I want to
Speaker 1: get in terms of the way that I want to look.
Speaker 1: My mind is constantly thinking through that. But food wise,
Speaker 1: it is really what I deem healthy. I would say
Speaker 1: that like I don't overeat and I don't under eat.
Speaker 1: It's kind of gone through phases, and I think in
Speaker 1: the last couple of years as like food has become
Speaker 1: more charged in the way of like, you know, there's
Speaker 1: always going to be a different a diet. There's always
Speaker 1: going to be like a different way of eating, even
Speaker 1: if they don't deem it a diet. I've definitely kind
Speaker 1: of come into that. Especially my background is in the
Speaker 1: beauty industry, and so yeah, it's you know, there's always
Speaker 1: things that I could be trying, but ultimately that's not
Speaker 1: really good for me as someone who is working through
Speaker 1: an eating disorder right right, so right now, wanting to
Speaker 1: learn more about the picture of who you are here?
Speaker 1: Do you trek what you eat? Like what kind of
Speaker 1: ways do you monitor what you can see? Currently? No,
Speaker 1: I don't. But what I do do is I make
Speaker 1: a list every week of all the foods I'm going
Speaker 1: to be eating, the meals I'm going to be making.
Speaker 1: That's something I do every single week, and the workouts
Speaker 1: that I'm going to be doing so that like I
Speaker 1: don't have to think twice about something, although that's not
Speaker 1: not always the case. I've had done a food diary,
Speaker 1: which has been helpful in the past, but ultimately it's
Speaker 1: really just sticking to sort of like the regiment that
Speaker 1: I've made sort of like my own Excel doc in
Speaker 1: I'm a virgo, so I like to make a lot
Speaker 1: of lists, and so that really just sort of is, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's sort of how I lay it out in terms
Speaker 1: of the way that I function. Yeah, and you're already
Speaker 1: familiar with orthorexy, so I imagine you've also experienced at
Speaker 1: times like people don't recognize that this could be disordered,
Speaker 1: right because it looks like meal prepping. I'm healthy, I'm
Speaker 1: working out, I'm planning my life out. So at what
Speaker 1: point do you think you you notice this is beyond
Speaker 1: just like being healthy and mindful. I would say it
Speaker 1: was fairly recent, especially in the last two years. And
Speaker 1: I think with I'm on social media quite a lot
Speaker 1: for your job, I imagine for my job, but also
Speaker 1: I am just like I'm the person who sits there
Speaker 1: and it's like I see something interesting and I will
Speaker 1: click and I'll go down that rabbit hole following different
Speaker 1: people that I see, and also with trying to bring
Speaker 1: up more types of bodies right now, especially with body positivity,
Speaker 1: and you know, just looking at those different types of bodies,
Speaker 1: I sort of started to see that, like how people
Speaker 1: were talking about their own bodies and appreciating them. I
Speaker 1: was like, wait, but this isn't like the body that
Speaker 1: I was shown when I was, you know, fifteen, and
Speaker 1: the thing that I've wanted to emulate for so long.
Speaker 1: And now other people, you know, want this type of
Speaker 1: body that I might not have wanted in the past,
Speaker 1: And so I started to sort of see that a
Speaker 1: little bit. But then I also had an experience a
Speaker 1: couple of years ago where I worked with someone to
Speaker 1: get off of add medicine and it wasn't the right
Speaker 1: fit for me to work with this person, and it
Speaker 1: took away a lot of different foods within that within
Speaker 1: everything that I was eating, and it's sort of it
Speaker 1: got a lot harder for the eating disorder and winding
Speaker 1: off of the medication. Yeah, not that the add medication
Speaker 1: anyway sort of made me feel different. It was more
Speaker 1: of the idea that I was taking off grains and
Speaker 1: all these different types of foods essentially to not have
Speaker 1: the brain fog. And so because I was removing all
Speaker 1: of that from my diet, I saw I was losing weight.
Speaker 1: And when I stopped working with this person, you know,
Speaker 1: I kind of just did my old thing, and so
Speaker 1: that really stressed me out, where I saw myself gain
Speaker 1: more weight and the idea of that. I knew that
Speaker 1: I had such a strict regimen before that, I was like,
Speaker 1: there's something not right here because like I've never eaten
Speaker 1: unhealthy as I'm saying in quotes, you know, on my terms.
Speaker 1: But ultimately working with this person was just the wrong fit.
Speaker 1: It work and my eating disorder and the idea of
Speaker 1: the orthorexia piece of that is just I think I
Speaker 1: came to understand that, like there was something wrong here.
Speaker 1: So when you mentioned it has gotten worse in the
Speaker 1: past couple of years, can you say more about what
Speaker 1: has gotten worse? Like you mentioned like you're often thinking
Speaker 1: about food, what you're going to eat next. So when
Speaker 1: something is so pervasive in our mind and it consumes
Speaker 1: all of our time, that's like the one of the
Speaker 1: first clues that it might be problematic. Well, how else
Speaker 1: has this manifested in your life like other than just
Speaker 1: your thoughts. You know. I find myself, especially in the
Speaker 1: past couple of years, sitting and moving in different ways
Speaker 1: so that I don't have to feel the different parts
Speaker 1: of my body that I don't like, whether that's even
Speaker 1: going to bed and lying on my side and feeling
Speaker 1: as if something is touching me that I don't want
Speaker 1: to actually feel and that I want to change. I
Speaker 1: will manipulate my body so that I don't have to
Speaker 1: feel that way. I also was wearing basically like the
Speaker 1: same outfit every day during the pandemic, and so I
Speaker 1: think in some way that got me to a place
Speaker 1: that I just I couldn't put on anything else because
Speaker 1: I didn't want to know how tight something might be.
Speaker 1: I mean, I of course was hoping that it would
Speaker 1: be much more loose on myself when I tried something on,
Speaker 1: but the idea that it could be tight would send
Speaker 1: me into a spiral and could send me straight to
Speaker 1: my bed, where essentially I don't want to talk to anyone.
Speaker 1: I could be crying. It really all depends on sort
Speaker 1: of the situation. And I'll also add that I am
Speaker 1: on antidepressants, so if I happened to wake up the
Speaker 1: next morning before I take that antidepressant. There have been
Speaker 1: periods of time where I won't go to take it immediately,
Speaker 1: and I have a pretty short period I've learned from
Speaker 1: the time that I wake up to the time that
Speaker 1: I should be taking it where I can essentially sort
Speaker 1: of stay and you know, this sort of like more
Speaker 1: calm zone. And so I wouldn't go take my medication immediately,
Speaker 1: and so it would that chemical and bounce really showed
Speaker 1: itself and made it really hard to get out of bed.
Speaker 1: And you know, sometimes my husband would have to pull
Speaker 1: me out of there and tell me to take my medication,
Speaker 1: which is exactly what I needed to do. What medication
Speaker 1: are you taking now? So I take Vibrate and I
Speaker 1: also take well Butron okay, And so you're taking that regularly?
Speaker 1: And do you see a psychiatrist for this or as
Speaker 1: a general practitioner? Yeah, I see a psychiatrist. And how
Speaker 1: often do you see them for chickens? Every three months?
Speaker 1: Every three months? Okay? And you're happy with the services
Speaker 1: that you're getting there. Yeah. I have been on an
Speaker 1: antidepressant since I was nine, So I've changed up my
Speaker 1: antidepressants I've felt a lot of shame and stigma being
Speaker 1: nine years old and taking it and took it maybe
Speaker 1: like a few times a week because I just didn't
Speaker 1: feel comfortable. I didn't understand why I took the medication.
Speaker 1: When I was eighteen, I went through something in college
Speaker 1: and decided to take my medication. And you know, it's
Speaker 1: funny because all the things you know, that I worry
Speaker 1: about with my body and the eating disorder and the
Speaker 1: things that I want to get better, my antidepressant has
Speaker 1: become like this light for me and is like this
Speaker 1: thing that I appreciate so much in my life. It's
Speaker 1: been a really important piece to sort of my recovery,
Speaker 1: and it's really important. Yeah, with the medication you mentioned,
Speaker 1: you've been taking it since you were a child. Have
Speaker 1: you also been in therapy the whole time or when
Speaker 1: did the therapy journey for you begin? So I was
Speaker 1: put in therapy at five, which my mom claims was
Speaker 1: play therapy. So I don't really know what that means,
Speaker 1: but I do have this very strong visual of me
Speaker 1: playing with toys on in a woman's office. But I
Speaker 1: was in therapy until I was eighteen, and I hated it. Again,
Speaker 1: I didn't understand why I was in it. My therapist
Speaker 1: during high school is the last one that I really
Speaker 1: remember during that time period, and just didn't click with her.
Speaker 1: I didn't know what to say, and I constantly was
Speaker 1: being I was the one who had to talk. You know.
Speaker 1: There wasn't much of a conversation, which I know that
Speaker 1: in therapy it's very different for everyone and how everyone works,
Speaker 1: but it was really uncomfortable for me, and so I
Speaker 1: kind of swore off therapy for a really long time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean that's understandable. If you did not know why
Speaker 1: you were there, it sounds like you were not there
Speaker 1: out of your own free will, which is like a
Speaker 1: huge component of going into this process is like identifying
Speaker 1: what it is that you want to work on. And
Speaker 1: I was complicated with kids, Like kids are going to
Speaker 1: be put into therapy because their parents or their teachers
Speaker 1: are recognizing some kind of behavioral issue. Yeah, but as
Speaker 1: you mentioned and like put so well, a five year
Speaker 1: old is going to have a really hard time understanding
Speaker 1: like why they're even coming here if they can't have fun.
Speaker 1: That's great, Like therapy is a thing. I love it.
Speaker 1: I mean you touched on not knowing why you're there.
Speaker 1: If there's no rationale that was provided, Can you tell
Speaker 1: me a bit more about what else you hated about it?
Speaker 1: That the therapy that you hated. It's funny because my
Speaker 1: mom would say that they would tell me things that
Speaker 1: I didn't want to hear, and so that's why I
Speaker 1: hated it, which I think is just like that's the
Speaker 1: whole gist of therapy. That's really why I hated it,
Speaker 1: and I didn't want to be told the things that
Speaker 1: I didn't even really understand about myself. I mean, of
Speaker 1: course I understand that now. I asked my mom a
Speaker 1: few years ago, like why was I in therapy so young?
Speaker 1: Why did you put me on an antidepressant? And she
Speaker 1: never really has a clear answer, and I do want
Speaker 1: to call of yacht that. Like, I am very close
Speaker 1: with my mom and she's super supportive. You know, she
Speaker 1: just did things I didn't understand. And I've come to
Speaker 1: kind of learn that I always really wanted attention. And
Speaker 1: I think that maybe my parents teachers at school just
Speaker 1: like already always sort of like saw that as like
Speaker 1: acting out. I've always wanted attention also for my body.
Speaker 1: I wanted people to praise my body. To tell me that, like, wow,
Speaker 1: you've flustrated or whow like you look so you look
Speaker 1: so great in those genes, like what have you done?
Speaker 1: And I've never really gotten that. The only person I
Speaker 1: did get it from was my mom, and it was
Speaker 1: the one person I never wanted to hear it from.
Speaker 1: And I still feel that way. Yeah, I don't even
Speaker 1: know if I answered your question. I think I got
Speaker 1: far from that. Yeah, I'm trying to get a sense of,
Speaker 1: like what about your past therapy experiences that you really
Speaker 1: didn't like? And moving on from that, it's like, what
Speaker 1: from these past experiences in therapy can you recall enjoying?
Speaker 1: Like were there pieces and components they did? Like in
Speaker 1: college when I started to take my antidepressant and sort
Speaker 1: of realized that I needed it, I also went to
Speaker 1: a therapist that happened to be like part of my
Speaker 1: college at the time, and I saw not recommended by
Speaker 1: your mom. She probably told me to see a therapist,
Speaker 1: but she didn't have to say and who it was.
Speaker 1: And I saw this woman and I remember really liking
Speaker 1: her and also remembering coming back and that she couldn't
Speaker 1: be my therapist the next semester. I think it was
Speaker 1: because it felt more of a conversation. She was asking
Speaker 1: questions versus me constantly being like, this is what happened
Speaker 1: today or this is what's been going on in my life.
Speaker 1: And I don't think that I could articulate that as
Speaker 1: a kid. I think I still want that conversation in
Speaker 1: a therapy session. I don't think I would so much
Speaker 1: want you know, it would just to be me. But
Speaker 1: I think it would be a lot easier now, just
Speaker 1: as I've grown as a person and sort of like
Speaker 1: know the different things about me that obviously I didn't
Speaker 1: know then. So now when you're entering therapy, something that
Speaker 1: is important to you is to be able to be
Speaker 1: involved in the conversation, to have a voice in what
Speaker 1: your goals are and what you're working on, and even
Speaker 1: just having some structure and guidance from the therapist to
Speaker 1: like move towards something versus just like, what do you
Speaker 1: want to talk about today right now? What would you
Speaker 1: say are your main focuses and goals? Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: it's really getting to a place where I can feel
Speaker 1: good in my body. And I know that that. I've
Speaker 1: always said that I don't know if that will ever come.
Speaker 1: And they're days where that's even more charged than you know,
Speaker 1: I'm saying that now is like I don't know if
Speaker 1: he'll ever come, but there are days where I'm like
Speaker 1: it will actually never come. And so I want to
Speaker 1: be able to be comfortable in the body that I
Speaker 1: have in that moment, to not feel as if, like
Speaker 1: you know, things feel really hard. Eating feels really hard,
Speaker 1: even though I'll i'll happily eat and I do enjoy food,
Speaker 1: and even saying that, it's like hard for me to say,
Speaker 1: I like get uncomfortable saying that because of the way
Speaker 1: that I feel about my body and the idea that like,
Speaker 1: I want to look a certain way. And so ultimately
Speaker 1: it's just like being okay, because the amount of space
Speaker 1: that food and my body takes up is pretty terrifying.
Speaker 1: Is it ever debilitating? Yeah? Right, like consuming all of
Speaker 1: your mental energy. Would you say that, like thinking about food,
Speaker 1: planning food, avoiding food. Has this gotten in the way
Speaker 1: of relationships or performance at work? So I would say, so,
Speaker 1: I'm married, and I definitely we have a great relationship
Speaker 1: and he's very supportive and sort of anything that I
Speaker 1: want to do, But ultimately, yeah, it can get in
Speaker 1: the way and I would even say that it gets
Speaker 1: in the way of libido. Granted, I am on antidepressants,
Speaker 1: and I know that that libido and antidepressants is, you know,
Speaker 1: not a great mix or it doesn't mix. But ultimately,
Speaker 1: if I don't feel good in my body, like I
Speaker 1: don't want anyone to touch me, and I would say that, like,
Speaker 1: I have a very hard time being intimate in any
Speaker 1: way because I don't even want to feel my own body,
Speaker 1: So being touched is uncomfortable, even though it's coming from
Speaker 1: a supportive place. And I'm working on that. And it's
Speaker 1: really hard when you have someone who cares so much
Speaker 1: about out you and loves you the way you are.
Speaker 1: But even if he says that I'm beautiful or I
Speaker 1: look great, like I can't. I can't take the compliment.
Speaker 1: I can't take it. You don't see it yourself, you
Speaker 1: don't believe it. And you know we've all heard that
Speaker 1: phrase of like, I wish you could see yourself the
Speaker 1: way that I see you, and it sounds like that's
Speaker 1: the way that you're loving and doting partner is Can
Speaker 1: you tell me about the relationship between body image and
Speaker 1: self worth. Yeah, I don't feel as if I'm worth
Speaker 1: a lot of different things in my life, you know.
Speaker 1: I actually so something that I do is and this
Speaker 1: has only been in probably the last six months, is
Speaker 1: on my Instagram. I've been doing these stream of consciousness posts.
Speaker 1: I've never been a journaler. I'm a writer, so I
Speaker 1: don't know if that has anything to do with it,
Speaker 1: But all of a sudden I started to kind of
Speaker 1: these certain memories sort of started to come up. And
Speaker 1: so when that would come up, I would go to
Speaker 1: my notes and just like quickly write down a paragraph
Speaker 1: of sort of the different things that are on my
Speaker 1: mind in terms of my eating disorder, and you asking
Speaker 1: about self worth. That's why I'm bringing this up is
Speaker 1: that I wrote a post recently saying that if I
Speaker 1: just was thinner, I'd have more clients if I just
Speaker 1: were thinner, you know, so on and so forth, and
Speaker 1: so my self worth is pretty depleted because I rely
Speaker 1: so much on my body to do a lot of
Speaker 1: the work in terms of making me feel better about
Speaker 1: what I'm doing. You have this thing that comes up
Speaker 1: of if I achieve a particular body type, then I
Speaker 1: would just all these negative feelings will go away. I'll
Speaker 1: feel better about myself. I'll learn how to be happy
Speaker 1: with who I am, Like where do those scripts come from?
Speaker 1: For what is the ideal body type? Can you say
Speaker 1: more about, like what is your prototype? Like where does
Speaker 1: that come from? I mean, I think it comes from
Speaker 1: my mom, and I would say that's a big part
Speaker 1: of that. Although she's told me for a really long
Speaker 1: time that I can't blame her anymore. I haven't lived
Speaker 1: with her for years. But I don't know where else
Speaker 1: it comes from, to be honest, But it's always stuck
Speaker 1: with me, Like I have different visuals and sort of
Speaker 1: memories of like being a kid, and you know, whether
Speaker 1: I'm like trying on a friend's jeans and the idea
Speaker 1: that they don't fit me. So like little things like
Speaker 1: that that would be an interesting exploration I think for
Speaker 1: us to continue at some point, you know, it's just
Speaker 1: like figuring out where this prototype comes from, to dissect it,
Speaker 1: because then once you really understand it, I think it
Speaker 1: makes it a little bit more achievable to start letting
Speaker 1: it go, to start on learning that so you can
Speaker 1: relearn and recompose a different ideal body, which might be
Speaker 1: the one that you're in right now. I think it's
Speaker 1: fair to want to achieve certain things, whether that's increased strength,
Speaker 1: better balance, more staminum, more endurance. Having personal goals are important,
Speaker 1: so I think it's good for you to think about
Speaker 1: like goals that are separate from I want to lose
Speaker 1: eight pounds. It's not really about the weight. It's I
Speaker 1: want to be able to go up these stairs and
Speaker 1: not get winded. For you, it is I'm hearing a
Speaker 1: lot about body image, not so much about like fitness,
Speaker 1: Is that right? Yeah? I mean I'm I work out
Speaker 1: five to six times a week, and so I've come
Speaker 1: to learn that like the working out piece is the
Speaker 1: consistent part. And also working out sometimes I'll I can
Speaker 1: you know that can stress me out too. If I
Speaker 1: see something on my body that I don't like that,
Speaker 1: I almost I want to stop working out. I want
Speaker 1: to quit, but I keep moving through it. So I'm
Speaker 1: usually working out for I'm not. I always say that
Speaker 1: like I work out because I think it mentally makes
Speaker 1: me feel better, but honestly, like it doesn't really help
Speaker 1: with my stress, doesn't help with like my depression. It's
Speaker 1: just something that I know I need to do to
Speaker 1: have a better day. But ultimately, like all the other
Speaker 1: things are still going to bother me. But I always
Speaker 1: think about food as being the thing that, like that
Speaker 1: is what's going to make a difference, and that that's
Speaker 1: come pretty recently knowing that, like the food is going
Speaker 1: to be the thing that's going to be the difference.
Speaker 1: It's not that like, you know, the thirty minutes that
Speaker 1: I worked out on Monday, I should have done an hour,
Speaker 1: and that I felt that differently in the past, but
Speaker 1: those things have changed a little bit. Something that I
Speaker 1: think would be interesting for both of us is like,
Speaker 1: as we continue forward and have more conversations redefining goals. Right,
Speaker 1: it sounds like everything when it comes to food, when
Speaker 1: it comes to your exercise routine and training your body,
Speaker 1: it's it's all comes back to how you look. So
Speaker 1: my hope and sense is that someday you'd like to
Speaker 1: also incorporate goals around health. Yeah, and you know I
Speaker 1: write about that. I mean I just wrote an article
Speaker 1: about metabolic health. You know, like these are things that
Speaker 1: I'm researching and looking into all day long, and some
Speaker 1: of those things are things that I might want to try,
Speaker 1: but I also know that like these types of things,
Speaker 1: like you know, talking about a glucose monitor that like
Speaker 1: that would probably be might be dangerous for me at
Speaker 1: this point, and I might have not realized that, you know,
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago. It might have been something
Speaker 1: that I just sort of like did immediately. And not
Speaker 1: to say that a glucose monitor is dangerous. I think
Speaker 1: they can be really helpful for people. But for me
Speaker 1: as someone who was already like looking at thinking about
Speaker 1: what I'm eating at all times, and the idea that
Speaker 1: I'd have to check back into something and be like
Speaker 1: more accountable than maybe I am sometimes that it's just
Speaker 1: there's it could be more stressful, right You're I mean,
Speaker 1: you're you're describing not wanting to become more obsessive about
Speaker 1: this thing that's already kind of impacting in negative way
Speaker 1: a lot of areas of your life. And also there's
Speaker 1: like a theme emerging here. There's a lot of conflicting
Speaker 1: things in your life. There's like a career that's really
Speaker 1: like in the world of body positivity, but you yourself
Speaker 1: are not feeling like that per se, even the stuff
Speaker 1: that you're writing for work. I think people might have
Speaker 1: a different perception of the person that writes this one.
Speaker 1: They're reading it right, It's like maybe a persona almost
Speaker 1: it's not quite who I'm seeing here. It's not a
Speaker 1: first person piece, so they probably don't, you know, they're
Speaker 1: not necessarily focused on the person who's writing it so much. So,
Speaker 1: you know something that you said about the obsessiveness of
Speaker 1: sort of the eating, and also how we were talking
Speaker 1: about how like I want to feel good in my body,
Speaker 1: but I also want to like lose the weight, you know,
Speaker 1: that type of thing. I think, honestly, I just want
Speaker 1: the obsessiveness to stop. Yes, of course I want to
Speaker 1: lose the weight, and I want to be happy in
Speaker 1: my body. I want all these different things that are conflicting,
Speaker 1: but the obsessive If that could just quiet, like my
Speaker 1: mind could quiet and I could just stop thinking about it,
Speaker 1: that would be the most idea, because there are very
Speaker 1: dark days when I can't get out of my head. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so that's our goal, kind of zeroing in on this
Speaker 1: thing that has taken over your mind space. And then
Speaker 1: you know, as we work on those kinds of things,
Speaker 1: other stuff begins to unfold. And I really really appreciate
Speaker 1: you being so open and answering all these questions so honestly,
Speaker 1: because I think it helped us identify something here, which
Speaker 1: is what you really want first, is to address the obsessiveness. Yeah,
Speaker 1: racing thoughts, the rumination, the dwelling, you know, totally. And
Speaker 1: I think as someone who's like pretty you know, doing
Speaker 1: those Instagram posts and you know, I actually I talk
Speaker 1: about people about their own mental health day as I
Speaker 1: have my own mental health platform. It's something that I
Speaker 1: created with my husband because we wanted to be able
Speaker 1: to tell other people's stories to make them not feel
Speaker 1: so alone. And it's funny to think that they're not funny,
Speaker 1: but it's you know, I struggle so much and I
Speaker 1: think that the idea that I have these conversations with
Speaker 1: people has helped me to feel not so alone. But yeah,
Speaker 1: ultimately it's it's just my don't I don't really know
Speaker 1: how I do all my other work because my brain
Speaker 1: is constantly thinking about my body. Yeah, so not funny,
Speaker 1: probably some irony, right, yes soon, Jamie. Thank you so
Speaker 1: much for that, Jamie, thank you for being so honest
Speaker 1: and open and you know, really letting us in. I
Speaker 1: think I was, of course listening as all of our
Speaker 1: listeners and viewers, and you know, hearing someone who's so
Speaker 1: open allows me to have the same reflections about the
Speaker 1: voice that's in my head. I think you articulated so
Speaker 1: many things so effectively and so wonderfully genuinely that allowed
Speaker 1: me to articulate certain experiences and emotions that I have
Speaker 1: about some similar things that you've raised. That's only possible
Speaker 1: because you were willing to go there, and I'm hoping
Speaker 1: that everyone has been listening and watching. I can definitely
Speaker 1: say that I think you've helped a lot of people
Speaker 1: today because you've just shown us the breadth of the
Speaker 1: human mind, where it can go, what it can experience,
Speaker 1: and because you've been doing that work to understand yourself,
Speaker 1: all of us who may not have the words or
Speaker 1: the voice to kind of piece them together, we're hearing
Speaker 1: that through you. I know. I definitely was so thank
Speaker 1: you for that. Personally, I want to help unpack a
Speaker 1: little bit of what we've done today because you've both
Speaker 1: met for the first time today as who had no
Speaker 1: background on you, Jamie, and you had no background as well,
Speaker 1: so this has been a real genuine interaction and conversation
Speaker 1: of real discovery. Jamie, how long have you been going
Speaker 1: to therapy for at the moment or as in not
Speaker 1: since the days you didn't enjoy going, but more recently
Speaker 1: the past six months. Okay, so it's been six months
Speaker 1: since that time from five to eighteen that you didn't
Speaker 1: enjoy therapy to reconnect. There was a couple of like
Speaker 1: short like two month period where I've two month period
Speaker 1: long sort of therapy. I would try someone new and
Speaker 1: I'm like, no, this isn't good, and then it would
Speaker 1: might be like four years and I would do it again.
Speaker 1: So I would say, in between sort of like eighteen
Speaker 1: until now, there might have been like three different therapists
Speaker 1: that I saw for like a month or two, and
Speaker 1: now you're in this six month commitment phase. It sounds
Speaker 1: like with a bit more It sounds like a bit
Speaker 1: more regularity and consistency. What has brought you to that now?
Speaker 1: And what benefits are you seeing from the last six months? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I what brought me to it was that it was
Speaker 1: getting harder to get out of bed. I guess I
Speaker 1: don't even know if I know, like the quite the
Speaker 1: meaning of this term, because I don't think I had
Speaker 1: suicide ideation, but the I would lay in bed and
Speaker 1: think that, like, I don't think I need to be here.
Speaker 1: I'm so unhappy with how I feel and how I look.
Speaker 1: Maybe I'm just not meant to be here. And so
Speaker 1: my husband had been telling me to go see a
Speaker 1: therapist for a while, and I think maybe the last
Speaker 1: time that I thought about sort of the idea of
Speaker 1: me not being here was when I said, Okay, I'll
Speaker 1: look for someone. And it wasn't you know, the next
Speaker 1: day I went and like found someone. It was kind
Speaker 1: of like a little bit of a lull, trying to
Speaker 1: find someone that also could specialize in eating disorders, which
Speaker 1: I had never had. I don't exactly know what my
Speaker 1: therapist was when I was in high school, but you know,
Speaker 1: it was kind of just talking about like everything that
Speaker 1: was going on in my life. So that's where I've
Speaker 1: been focused on the last six months. Yeah, And would
Speaker 1: you say there've been any any skills that you've developed
Speaker 1: over that six months or anything you feel that you
Speaker 1: mark is progress for yourself. Sort Of talking to her
Speaker 1: in the person that I'm seeing in this ongoing basis
Speaker 1: has allowed me to find a couple of coping skills.
Speaker 1: It's not something that like it it's so hard and
Speaker 1: set that I'm like, okay, I need to do, but
Speaker 1: a lot of breathing helps and not even like I'm
Speaker 1: not talking breathwork. I'm just talking about like talking to
Speaker 1: myself saying like, Okay, I need to walk away from
Speaker 1: this or I have to go finish this thing. That
Speaker 1: was something that I had to do a lot of
Speaker 1: when I was just on vacation a couple of weeks ago,
Speaker 1: because it was the first time I had worn a
Speaker 1: bathing suit in a long time, and warn different things
Speaker 1: that I hadn't worn in the past year or so,
Speaker 1: and so I had I was really scared to go
Speaker 1: on that vacation, as exciting as it was, because I
Speaker 1: didn't want my stress and anxiety and panic to get
Speaker 1: in the way of my husband and I having a
Speaker 1: good time. And I was able to get through that.
Speaker 1: Thank you for sharing that, and as well for you,
Speaker 1: like when just to give people a bit of an
Speaker 1: insight when you're meeting a new prospective client or someone
Speaker 1: that you're having a conversation within this situation, what are
Speaker 1: you trying to do? Like what is your process? Because
Speaker 1: I think just for you know, obviously here we have
Speaker 1: Jamie who's very happy to be open, and she's been
Speaker 1: so kind and letting us in a lot of people
Speaker 1: who may be listening and watching maybe just like, well,
Speaker 1: how do I be so open with a stranger and
Speaker 1: like I don't know if I feel comfortable and just
Speaker 1: to let them in a bit to your process? What
Speaker 1: are you trying to do? Of course, I think you're
Speaker 1: you have a you know, a wonderful skill at making
Speaker 1: someone feel comfortable and not being invasive. You are very
Speaker 1: protective of someone's safety and how far they want to go.
Speaker 1: But could you help us understand a bit more of that? Yeah,
Speaker 1: great question, I think you know. Initially, the big thing
Speaker 1: for many therapists, if not most, I hope all is
Speaker 1: to build rapport. It's like it's part of our textbook
Speaker 1: training is like, if this person doesn't feel safe, it's
Speaker 1: not about them trusting you as an individual, it's do
Speaker 1: they feel safe in this room? Do they feel an
Speaker 1: absence of danger from you? Like? These are big things
Speaker 1: for me. So you know there are techniques, right, It's
Speaker 1: like about the loudness of your voice, like mirroring your
Speaker 1: client's body language, just kind of being really in tune
Speaker 1: with how quickly they're breathing, so a lot of nonverbal cues.
Speaker 1: So initially it's very much about listening to understand versus
Speaker 1: listening to respond, which is what we all do in conversation, right,
Speaker 1: we're just wanting to make sure we're like keeping up
Speaker 1: or whatever it is. But for me, it's it's really
Speaker 1: wanting to understand, start to paint a picture of who
Speaker 1: you are, not just this person sitting in front of me,
Speaker 1: but the kid that exist that grew up into who
Speaker 1: you are now, and the parents that raised this person
Speaker 1: and all these dynamics. So, of course we didn't have
Speaker 1: like a full session today, and normally in my assessment process,
Speaker 1: when I'm first getting to know a client, I'm trying
Speaker 1: to get as much info about family dynamics if you
Speaker 1: weren't raised by your biological parents, and then finding a
Speaker 1: little bit more about what that situation looked like. And
Speaker 1: that's because of my approach as a therapist. It is
Speaker 1: important for me to kind of start poking around childhood.
Speaker 1: And I always ask my clients are you comfortable with this?
Speaker 1: Because some clients don't want to go there, and it's
Speaker 1: not necessary. You don't have to go there to start
Speaker 1: learning some real skills to start coping with today's challenges.
Speaker 1: But when my clients do let me in there, I'll
Speaker 1: definitely want to go down that rabbit hole because there's
Speaker 1: just so much stuff that happened to us as children
Speaker 1: that we didn't understand at the time, meaning we've probably
Speaker 1: still don't understand it now. So having a space now
Speaker 1: to process it connect it with our current emotions and
Speaker 1: relationship styles, the ways that what you attach with other people,
Speaker 1: that becomes very important to me. There's something that therapists
Speaker 1: do that I'm sure everybody's aware of if they've been
Speaker 1: in therapy is paraphrasing. Is saying back to you essentially
Speaker 1: what you just said, maybe rewording it a little bit
Speaker 1: and maybe adding like a little bit of my own
Speaker 1: insight here and there. And this creates the experience of like,
Speaker 1: she really heard me. You know, she's not putting her
Speaker 1: own stuff into this. She just wants to continue hearing
Speaker 1: me and seeing me. And that's definitely a big intention
Speaker 1: of mine, is I want this person to feel validated,
Speaker 1: if you know, sometimes that might be the first time
Speaker 1: somebody's really felt seen in that way. My hope always
Speaker 1: for a new client and even more seasoned clients, like
Speaker 1: more established clients, is that they know that when they
Speaker 1: come to see me, it's always still going to be
Speaker 1: about them. I'm not ever going to flip the conversation
Speaker 1: to make it about me. And you know, therapists sometimes
Speaker 1: use something called self disclosure, which is just like giving
Speaker 1: you some nuggets about who I am, and you have
Speaker 1: to be really intentional about doing that, and it's very
Speaker 1: clear even if the client can't articulate what's going on
Speaker 1: when a therapist is like overly using self disclosure for
Speaker 1: reasons that aren't very productive or leading to anything good
Speaker 1: for the client. Clients know that they can feel it
Speaker 1: something about the session doesn't feel right. When they leave,
Speaker 1: they don't feel as satisfied. So it's like some of
Speaker 1: the initial problems very useful. Yeah, I think those are
Speaker 1: really useful insights for people to be aware of what
Speaker 1: it feels like, what it looks like, why someone is
Speaker 1: doing that. Like you said, it may feel strange in
Speaker 1: your first session, is like why does this person repeating
Speaker 1: what I'm saying? But there's a reason for it, you know,
Speaker 1: there's a reason to try and listening. I want to
Speaker 1: ask you both one last question and of course happy
Speaker 1: for you to share anything that's on your heart own mind, Jemmy,
Speaker 1: for you, as someone who's had you know a variety
Speaker 1: of different therapy experiences without choice, now which choice? Even
Speaker 1: the idea of people often refer to the idea of
Speaker 1: dating is like finding a therapist. Like you're kind of like, oh,
Speaker 1: two months, okay, nope, okay, yeah, right, what would you
Speaker 1: say as some things that were important to you or
Speaker 1: that if people are listening and watching and they're in
Speaker 1: that process, that you could say, here, these are things
Speaker 1: that worked for me, These are things that I was
Speaker 1: looking for. If there were three things that were very
Speaker 1: important that helped you find someone that you now are
Speaker 1: consistently seeing for six months, specialty was really important, and
Speaker 1: I would say that there are a lot. It is
Speaker 1: harder to filter eating disorders, is what I've noticed in
Speaker 1: my experience of looking for someone. So getting as specific
Speaker 1: as possible if that's what you're needing therapy for, depending
Speaker 1: on where you're what you're going, what you're doing. But yeah,
Speaker 1: that specialty was really important to me before I found
Speaker 1: the therapist. When I'm seeing now, I spoke to someone
Speaker 1: else and so and it was necessary to kind of
Speaker 1: go through that process of talking to someone and realizing
Speaker 1: this isn't you know she was like a little too
Speaker 1: soft spoken for me and sort of also understanding what
Speaker 1: I need from like a conversation sort of perspective, is
Speaker 1: that I need someone who will also you know, talk
Speaker 1: back to me, give me the advice, versus say like
Speaker 1: what's on your mind today? And so I've kind of
Speaker 1: was taking notes as I was going through the process
Speaker 1: of finding a therapist that like, I really like it
Speaker 1: when she gives me this feedback, and that was really important.
Speaker 1: And that was something that absolutely didn't happen from you know,
Speaker 1: being a kid until I was eighteen and having those
Speaker 1: discussions with my therapist. Then, Yeah, that's great. I find
Speaker 1: that really useful. I even think even making someone aware
Speaker 1: of that is so useful her. So is there anything
Speaker 1: that clients make you aware of, any questions they ask
Speaker 1: you that you think actually improves a relationship. If if
Speaker 1: there are people today who are like, oh wow, I
Speaker 1: need to go and find a therapist, been really inspired
Speaker 1: by this conversation, what are some of the things you,
Speaker 1: as a therapist would say, Hey, please ask your therapist
Speaker 1: this question or please let your therapists know this that
Speaker 1: actually could speed up that opportunity to finding the right person.
Speaker 1: What a great question. And at some point I did
Speaker 1: ask you, like, were there things about your previous therapy
Speaker 1: experiences that you liked? Because I was trying to get
Speaker 1: to that. I was trying to get at what can
Speaker 1: I take from what you've done before and keep doing
Speaker 1: the good stuff? Like take the good stuff, keep doing that.
Speaker 1: So it is greatly appreciated I think by many therapists
Speaker 1: when clients come prepared with those questions, like initially you
Speaker 1: should interview your therapists like you're hiring them, and ultimately
Speaker 1: you can also fire them, like that's what happens when
Speaker 1: you decide you don't want to work with them anymore.
Speaker 1: I think finding a specialist is also extremely important because, Yeah,
Speaker 1: because someone can be really really good at working with
Speaker 1: clients with anxiety and workplace stress, but if they have
Speaker 1: someone coming to them with concerns around orthorexia, that's going
Speaker 1: to be very challenging for the therapist because they're not
Speaker 1: well educated or trained. Yeah, you know, somebody that specializes
Speaker 1: means they're going to additional trainings, they may have gotten
Speaker 1: certified in something they've began supervision or consultation with, like
Speaker 1: somebody that's also master in this kind of world, which
Speaker 1: just means they've worked in it so long that they
Speaker 1: identify recognize patterns of behavior in a particular group of people.
Speaker 1: And so from there you can start thinking about really
Speaker 1: specific coping skills, specific ways to help people build those
Speaker 1: skills to help cope with life, because somebody that's like
Speaker 1: really good at getting you to think about how to
Speaker 1: cope with workplace stress is not really going to understand, Like,
Speaker 1: but you're meal prepping. That's a good thing, right, you know,
Speaker 1: So it's okay for clients to ask all their questions
Speaker 1: about the therapist and come to the conclusion that they're
Speaker 1: not the right person, because that's what the therapist too.
Speaker 1: We have a code of ethics to keep the public safe,
Speaker 1: and one of those pieces is you are not to
Speaker 1: work with clients that are outside of your scope of competence.
Speaker 1: Right Like, if I have zero training, exposure and understanding
Speaker 1: of any eating disorders, it would be a disservice to
Speaker 1: you to try to work with you through this thing
Speaker 1: that I don't really know much about. I didn't say
Speaker 1: a specific question, but clients, please feel you know that
Speaker 1: you have the permission. Of course, you should be asking
Speaker 1: questions and interviewing this person to see if they're a
Speaker 1: good fit for you. Yeah. Yeah, I actually think that's
Speaker 1: a really great piece of feedback because often people think
Speaker 1: if therapist is their authority, and so there's a sense
Speaker 1: of like, oh, no, this person is going to tell me.
Speaker 1: But actually, in the beginning, before you being guided, there
Speaker 1: is this interview process of making sure the person's compatible
Speaker 1: and yeah and right for you. And it took me
Speaker 1: a long time to get there, That's what I mean. Yeah, Like,
Speaker 1: I'm in my thirties now, and you know, the last
Speaker 1: time I saw someone for like two months at a time,
Speaker 1: I was in my twenties and definitely didn't ask any question.
Speaker 1: I just was kind of like, all right, I'm just
Speaker 1: going to go in and I'll hear what this person
Speaker 1: has to say. But yeah, that was a learned skill
Speaker 1: for sure. Yeah. Are there any final words that either
Speaker 1: if you want to share with our community or audience
Speaker 1: today or each other, Because I'm feeling extremely grateful for
Speaker 1: this opportunity, Jamie. You've led us in and I'm hoping
Speaker 1: that this conversation has been useful to you in moving
Speaker 1: you forward toward your goals. I'm obviously hoping that this
Speaker 1: relationship continues. You know, has who I think You've been
Speaker 1: so kind as well and generous with your time to
Speaker 1: truly sit with Jamie and help guide this discussion as
Speaker 1: well and your insights towards the end. There, but any
Speaker 1: last few words from either of you, I would just
Speaker 1: say that you know, like I think, the reason that
Speaker 1: I've become because I know that it's it's not easy
Speaker 1: to talk to a therapist or talk to anyone about
Speaker 1: your mental health and what's going on. And well I said,
Speaker 1: I've always been an open book and really vulnerable. It's
Speaker 1: only been the past couple of years that I've openly
Speaker 1: talked about sort of my antidepressant or my eating disorder.
Speaker 1: And ultimately, I just want to say that I do
Speaker 1: that because I want to help people feel not so alone.
Speaker 1: And that's also why, like I said, I had started
Speaker 1: and Repete with my husband, our mental health platform. But
Speaker 1: the thing is is I'm going through it as I'm
Speaker 1: talking to all these people. So thank you and thank
Speaker 1: you for both having me. Now you're definitely helping people
Speaker 1: not feel alone, and your vulnerability is definitely helping this community.
Speaker 1: So thank you so much. All the more, thank you,
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you, because you know therapists for years
Speaker 1: decades have been wondering how to solve this problem of
Speaker 1: how do we get more people to understand that this
Speaker 1: is something that anybody can benefit from. And it's really
Speaker 1: like this boom in the past like five years or
Speaker 1: so where it's becoming a bit more normalized to talk
Speaker 1: about mental health, and that convers station is only going
Speaker 1: to keep propelling in that direction because of people like you,
Speaker 1: because of people that are willing to speak on these
Speaker 1: things and be so open and vulnerable. So I am
Speaker 1: very grateful to you. You can have a whole thousands
Speaker 1: of therapists saying go to therapy, go therapy, but it
Speaker 1: is not as powerful as a real, live person who's
Speaker 1: not a therapist talking about the benefits that they've had.
Speaker 1: So I really appreciate you and your time too. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I want to thank everyone who's been listening and watching
Speaker 1: wherever you are in the world. And I'm hoping that
Speaker 1: this conversation, this live therapy session that you got to
Speaker 1: watch has encouraged you, maybe taken away some of those barriers,
Speaker 1: taken away some of those boundaries that you've created towards
Speaker 1: therapy and made them easy a few to cross, or
Speaker 1: maybe sharing this with a friend or family member who
Speaker 1: may have barriers or boundaries of their own, and they
Speaker 1: can see how each and every one of us can
Speaker 1: share our space, our time, our energy and learn a
Speaker 1: bit more about ourselves. And even if that's all we
Speaker 1: achieve from that time, how powerful it can be in
Speaker 1: this journey of life. And so I want to remind
Speaker 1: everyone to keep coming back for these episodes where we
Speaker 1: will be diving into a live therapy session so that
Speaker 1: you can get that insight. And these episodes are brought
Speaker 1: to you by Better Help that are helping millions of
Speaker 1: people by making professional therapy more affordable and accessible than ever.
Speaker 1: So to see my top reasons why you should try
Speaker 1: online therapy, visit betterhelp dot com forward slash Jay's top
Speaker 1: three that's better at LP dot com Forward slash Jays
Speaker 1: TP three And when you do that, we're giving away
Speaker 1: ten percent off your first month of online therapy when
Speaker 1: you sign up. So I encourage you all to do
Speaker 1: that or encourage you to recommend it to a friend,
Speaker 1: and remember you deserve to invest in yourself and Better
Speaker 1: Help is a great way to start to do that.
Speaker 1: Thank you everyone, Thank you here soon, Thank you Jamie
Speaker 1: again did