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Speaker 1: Hi, This is newt twenty twenty is going to be

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Speaker 1: one of the most extraordinary election years of our lifetime.

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Speaker 1: and use the Code podcast Hurry this Offtway Spires February fourteenth.

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Speaker 1: On this episode of newts World, this is the second

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Speaker 1: episode in our three part series about China, and we're

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Speaker 1: looking at what it is like to live in modern

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Speaker 1: day communist China. When Jijumping became President of China, we

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Speaker 1: imagined a more open Chinese society. Jijumping became the General

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Speaker 1: Secretary of the Communist Party of China, the Chairman of

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Speaker 1: the Central Military Commission, and the President of the People's

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Speaker 1: Republic of China. During his tenure, there has been a

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Speaker 1: significant increase in censorship and mass surveillance, significant deteration in

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Speaker 1: human rights, and the removal of term limits for the president.

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Speaker 1: To some he's considered the most powerful and influential person

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Speaker 1: in the world. To others, he's a totalitarian dictator. My

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Speaker 1: guests today speak candidly about their experiences with human rights

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Speaker 1: in China. I'm pleased to introduce my guests Michael Castor,

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Speaker 1: a human rights advocate, researcher, and civil society consultant who

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Speaker 1: has lived and worked in China, and doctor Tun Biel,

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Speaker 1: a Chinese dissident human rights lawyer an adjunct professor at

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Speaker 1: Hunter College, City, University of New York. Michael, what's your

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Speaker 1: background and how did you get interested in this? In

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Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, I went to China after finishing

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Speaker 1: my bachelor's degree right after the Olympics, and I thought

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Speaker 1: I was going to stay for a few months, maybe

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Speaker 1: six months or something like that their typical time abroad.

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Speaker 1: Gained some experience and go back to the US, but

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Speaker 1: it was such a critical time in China, and I

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Speaker 1: was fortunate to be connected with some really courageous human

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Speaker 1: rights defenders, and it was sort of a baptist them

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Speaker 1: by fire for me in the human rights movement, in

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Speaker 1: working with people on the ground, in the civil society

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Speaker 1: movement in an authoritarian state, and it was just so

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Speaker 1: exciting and it felt so meaningful and impactful that what

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Speaker 1: initially was going to be a few months has basically

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Speaker 1: turned into the last ten years of my life. That's amazing.

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Speaker 1: And have you been able just to travel anywhere you

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Speaker 1: wanted to know? In twy eight nine ten, it was

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Speaker 1: a very different China. Certainly the government was just as

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Speaker 1: oppressive and it was very much still an authoritarian state.

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Speaker 1: But I think with the Internet, the government has been

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Speaker 1: more able to surveil individuals and their movement. It's become

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Speaker 1: much more sophisticated in tracking people, so the repression has

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Speaker 1: gotten much greater the capacity of the state, so that

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Speaker 1: you know, ten years ago, you could travel easier to places,

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Speaker 1: you could meet with people more securely. But I do

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Speaker 1: remember many times that we would have to still be

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Speaker 1: very careful about where we met and what types of

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Speaker 1: conversations we had. We would sometimes go out to parks,

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Speaker 1: places where we knew there wouldn't be people sitting around

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Speaker 1: listening if you're in a cafe or something you don't

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Speaker 1: know for certain. There was still very much a concern

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Speaker 1: about listening devices. Digital security concerns were still an issue

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Speaker 1: nowhere near as much as they are now, So there

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Speaker 1: were constraints, there were challenges, but it was easier, i think,

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Speaker 1: to mitigate those challenges. It was easier to be involved

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Speaker 1: in a civil society movement ten years ago, whereas now,

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Speaker 1: through political and technical reasons, the government has really very

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Speaker 1: successfully cut off the ability of actors on the ground

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Speaker 1: and trying to operate at least in the same way

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Speaker 1: that we used to. Now. Of course, there's places where

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Speaker 1: you just can't travel freely. You know, if you go

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Speaker 1: someplace like Shinjong, for example, you know that you're putting

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Speaker 1: yourself at risk, You're putting people you meet at risk.

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Speaker 1: So it's much much more difficult now to travel around.

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Speaker 1: But I personally haven't been back to China since twenty fifteen,

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Speaker 1: shortly before the crackdown on my formal organization, and now

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't feel safe going to the country at all. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: we've seen a number of cases of foreigners being detained

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Speaker 1: and held for long periods of time, and because a

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Speaker 1: number of my colleagues have been detained or tortured or

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Speaker 1: expelled from the country, I certainly wouldn't want to risk

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Speaker 1: it now. In my new book on Trump versus China,

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Speaker 1: I admit that I was one of those who for

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Speaker 1: a while thought that the Southern tour and the language

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Speaker 1: of Dung shouping about markets actually had a deeper meaning.

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Speaker 1: In fact, this really is a Leninist utilitarian system. Do

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Speaker 1: you think there was a period where they were almost

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Speaker 1: trying to shift and then it failed, or they just

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Speaker 1: gotten better technologies of repression. I do think that it's

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Speaker 1: really unfortunate that a lot of countries in the democratic,

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Speaker 1: rule of law, human rights respecting West in the nineties

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Speaker 1: had a belief that economic liberalization would lead to political liberalization,

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Speaker 1: the South Korean model. I think that was flawed, and

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Speaker 1: we've seen it now and that China has become the

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Speaker 1: second largest economy in the world and it's more totalitarian

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Speaker 1: now than it was in the nineties. And whether those

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Speaker 1: were authentic economic or rule of law liberalizations that the

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Speaker 1: government was doing because they wanted to be an equal

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Speaker 1: participant in a liberal international order that believed in rule

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Speaker 1: of law, that believed in private property, individual rights, human rights,

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Speaker 1: and so forth, because they thought it was actually a

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Speaker 1: superior way, or if they were doing it only because

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Speaker 1: they knew that was what would give them greater market access.

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Speaker 1: They took advantage, certainly of the fact that in this

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Speaker 1: sort of Marxian analysis, there was this race to the bottom,

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Speaker 1: and that global producers were looking to exploit very cheap

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Speaker 1: labor in China. And so, inasmuch as the government of China,

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Speaker 1: I think, is to blame for the increasing authoritarianism, a

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Speaker 1: lot of the capitalist democratic rule of law respecting Western

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Speaker 1: governments and countries are also very much to blame. Because

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Speaker 1: we moved production to China, we allowed the government to

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Speaker 1: develop as economically as it did while constantly for the

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Speaker 1: last two decades granting them political concessions overlooking human rights violations,

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Speaker 1: because we wanted that market share, we wanted that market access,

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Speaker 1: and we just look at what's happening most recently with

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Speaker 1: the NBA, with Blizzard, with Marriott, with Cafe Pacific, with

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Speaker 1: this litany of international company major brands, Apple computers really

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Speaker 1: caving to demands from China. And it's really concerning the

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Speaker 1: way that China's been able to for a long time

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Speaker 1: leverage economic power to manipulate this false belief that economic

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Speaker 1: liberalization guaranteed leads to political liberalization, and now we see

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Speaker 1: an economically powerful, very totalitarian state, which is hard to

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Speaker 1: confront and to challenge because governments and companies are very

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Speaker 1: hesitant to sacrifice what they see as the economic games

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Speaker 1: that they've made. From your perspective, ing simply a symptom

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Speaker 1: of an underlying machine that wanted somebody to increase the

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Speaker 1: coersion or is he a major factor in shifting their

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Speaker 1: policy towards dramatically more sophisticated coersion. It's a really interesting question.

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Speaker 1: It's really fascinating because there are certainly a lot of

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Speaker 1: nuances there, and I think that one mistake that people make.

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Speaker 1: Of course, the party is not a monolithic entity. There

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Speaker 1: are factions within the party. We certainly saw that when

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Speaker 1: Seson Ping first came to power, the purge of Voice Heli,

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Speaker 1: for example, the anti corruption campaign that he waged in

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Speaker 1: the early years was very much about identifying and purging

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Speaker 1: party opponents. So there is a factionalism that happens, so

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Speaker 1: he's part of one group that exists within the party

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Speaker 1: and there's out the groups. Whether he's a symptom himself

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Speaker 1: or an individual who has risen in power is maybe

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Speaker 1: difficult to say exactly, as I'm not an expert on

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Speaker 1: elite party politics. But what I can say is it

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Speaker 1: under season Ping, consequentially, we have someone who is more totalitarian,

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Speaker 1: more powerful than any leader since Malzadom, and that's really

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Speaker 1: very concerning because, of course Calzadom died in nineteen seventy six,

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Speaker 1: and he was part of that era of the twentieth

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Speaker 1: century of totalitarian leaders around the world, and under season Ping,

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Speaker 1: and unfortunately in a number of other countries, we are

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Speaker 1: seeing this sort of return to a level of nationalist,

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Speaker 1: totalitarian strongman leaders as Seazon Ping is perhaps the most

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Speaker 1: successful of all of them, not just in what he's

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Speaker 1: been able to do through physical coersion, fashion intimidation, but

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Speaker 1: harnessing all of the tools available of the technological revolution,

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Speaker 1: artificial intelligence, the surveillance state that exists pioneered in places

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Speaker 1: like Sinjong and then rolled out in other parts of

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Speaker 1: the country. But not only through that domestically but also internationally.

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Speaker 1: Understating Ping, China has been more assertive, more intrusive in

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Speaker 1: the domestic politics the internal affairs of any other country.

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Speaker 1: Any time that a foreign leader or a journalist or

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Speaker 1: a public figure makes a comment about China, the first

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Speaker 1: thing that the voice of the party, state news or

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Speaker 1: party officials will say is, this is an unwanted interference

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Speaker 1: in the internal affairs of China. And yet China does

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Speaker 1: this all the time. China influences elections, China spy, China

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Speaker 1: steals technology, It bullies and intimidates companies and governments fall

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Speaker 1: into line through might and through other things. So certainly

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Speaker 1: for one reason or another, and as important as I

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Speaker 1: think to understand some of the factors that led to it,

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Speaker 1: at the point whereat, we also need to recognize teasing

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Speaker 1: Ping is the strongest and is the most authoritarian leader

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Speaker 1: that China has seen in a long time, and confront him.

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Speaker 1: Where we are now? What are those struck with? Recently,

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Speaker 1: Mary Bloomberg did this interview where he explained that China

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Speaker 1: is really not a dictatorship, that they have to satisfy

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Speaker 1: the people or the system will break down. And I

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Speaker 1: read that, and I looked at Hong Kong, and I

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Speaker 1: looked at other things today. Couldn't quite figure out how

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Speaker 1: he got there. And yet you saw it again with

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Speaker 1: the NBA. You see it with the head of Apple,

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Speaker 1: which is one of the two or three highest capitalized

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Speaker 1: companies in the world. I mean, if Apple can't afford

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Speaker 1: to stand up to China, it's pretty hard to imagine.

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Speaker 1: Who could. I think a lot of us who work

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Speaker 1: on China, those of us who work on human rights

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Speaker 1: in China civil society issues, really were left shocked at

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Speaker 1: this out of touch perspective. Of course it was. The

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Speaker 1: most recent example is Mary Bloomberg, but plenty of people

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Speaker 1: have a very misplaced understanding exactly what the Communist Party

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Speaker 1: of China is and how much power they're willing to

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Speaker 1: seed to popular will and opinions. There's really very little

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Speaker 1: truth in that, unless you were to be foolish enough

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Speaker 1: into believing that the people of China support seas pay.

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Speaker 1: There hasn't been an outright revolution to oust them. But

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Speaker 1: the level of control that the party exercise is certainly

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Speaker 1: is nothing that resembles any form of democratic representative government.

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Speaker 1: And it's concerning when people who are in positions of

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Speaker 1: power who are stakehold their interaction with China, how they

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Speaker 1: might be called upon to hold the country accountable, is

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Speaker 1: going to be influenced by that, and China will continue

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Speaker 1: to influence and to control the agenda, as they very

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Speaker 1: successfully have done in many many cases. We've seen recently

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Speaker 1: in the last few months both the ambassador Canada and

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Speaker 1: Sweden to China being recalled back to Ottawa and Stockholm,

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Speaker 1: and a formal investigation actually into the former Swedish ambassador

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Speaker 1: to China being long because of having effectively been turned

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Speaker 1: to pro China sentiments manipulating their home country policies because

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Speaker 1: they have been so successfully swayed by China. People like

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg or former Senator Lieberman who has now registered for

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Speaker 1: the foreign agent because of all being he has done

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Speaker 1: for China. We really see how concerned is when influential

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Speaker 1: stakeholders have this flawed of China coming up. Coercive custody

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Speaker 1: or secret detention in China is a regular occurrence, Michael

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Speaker 1: Castor explains next, this is week six of my Profile

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Speaker 1: planned journey, and Debbie and I are on this together

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Speaker 1: and we're discussing social support with our profile coach Abbey

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Speaker 1: Newton Debby, I'm so excited to talk about social support

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Speaker 1: this week. We're really going to talk about family and

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Speaker 1: friends can support you throughout your weight last journey. It's

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Speaker 1: important to have a conversation with those close to you

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Speaker 1: and let them know how they can best support you

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Speaker 1: in reaching your weight last Goals. My wife, Calista is

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Speaker 1: very supportive, and so are the people that were closest

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Speaker 1: to about my weight last Goals. She's constantly encouraging me

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Speaker 1: to make better food choices and to do more exercise

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Speaker 1: on a daily basis. Frankly, when people just walk up

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Speaker 1: to me and say, boy, you look like you've been

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Speaker 1: losing weight, I find that encourages me to continue. With

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Speaker 1: your support, Abby, you got me ready for vacations, and

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Speaker 1: with the support of my family, I stayed with the

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Speaker 1: plan that you and I came up of increasing exercise.

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Speaker 1: Everybody supported me even when I decided to go off

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Speaker 1: plan a little bit. They kept me from lapsing into

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Speaker 1: really bad habits. It's great to have somebody along with

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Speaker 1: you on this journey, which is great that you two,

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Speaker 1: Newt and Debbie are doing this profile journey together. We

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Speaker 1: constantly we are making fun of each other because we're

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Speaker 1: drinking both so much water that when we're in the

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Speaker 1: office together, we run into each other constantly by the

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Speaker 1: restroom doors. I must say, Even things as simple as

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Speaker 1: making sure you have enough liquid so that you're keeping

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Speaker 1: your body fully up to speed, I think is a

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Speaker 1: significant step. Having someone that can understand you and relate

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Speaker 1: to both the success and victories is important on your journey.

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Speaker 1: We typically see that our members lose more weight with

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Speaker 1: family and friends because they're there to support you and

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Speaker 1: encourage you on a day today basis. Next week we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about personized coaching. Sign up now to

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Speaker 1: start losing weight today. You can do it with a

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Speaker 1: profile coach like Abbey guiding you every step of the way.

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Speaker 1: Go to profile plan dot com slash nute right now.

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Speaker 1: News World listeners can get an exclusive offer one hundred

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Speaker 1: dollars off a one year profile membership by visiting profile

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Speaker 1: plan dot com slash nute. Get your health journey started

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Speaker 1: today with a free profile coach consultation at your nearest

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Speaker 1: profile location or by visiting profile plan dot com slash

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Speaker 1: newt in your book, The People's Republic of the Disappeared.

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Speaker 1: Stories from inside China's system for enforced disappearance. You document

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Speaker 1: eleven different cases of Chinese citizens disappearing. Could you take

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Speaker 1: a couple of those and just for the average American,

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Speaker 1: walk them through how this system operates. The book is

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Speaker 1: mostly focused on one type of coercive custody in China,

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Speaker 1: which is a type of secret detention known as residential

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Speaker 1: surveillance at a designated location. And you can't get really

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Speaker 1: more or welly and euphemistic than that. Sounds nice residential surveillance, okay,

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Speaker 1: But what this amounts to is a mechanism within the

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Speaker 1: criminal procedure law that allows the police to take somebody

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Speaker 1: and hold them in secret for up to six months.

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Speaker 1: They have a lawyer, even the state prosecutor, which in

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Speaker 1: more functioning legal systems is supposed to have access to

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Speaker 1: detainees to make sure there's no abuse taking place. Likewise,

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Speaker 1: access to a lawyer, immediate access to a lawyer is

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Speaker 1: a fundamental procedural safeguard to prevent against torture and other things,

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Speaker 1: but in China none of these things exist. An Under

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Speaker 1: residential surveillance at a Designated Location or RSDL, individuals are

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Speaker 1: often subjected to cruel and unusual treatment ranging from sleep

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Speaker 1: deprivation that can last for days, forced malnourishment, also forced medication,

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Speaker 1: being made to take medicine that causes severe anxiety, heart palpitations,

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Speaker 1: things that can have irreversible long term impacts. They're subjected

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Speaker 1: to stress, positions, made to sit on chairs that are

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Speaker 1: designed to cut off the circulation to limbs, that your

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Speaker 1: legs go numb, and it can also have again irreversible

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Speaker 1: nerve damage, also electrocution, various forms of torture. They're interrogated

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Speaker 1: in this time period, Threats to them, that's their family,

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Speaker 1: their loved ones are made and this can last for

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Speaker 1: weeks and then they're kept for upwards of six months afterwards.

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Speaker 1: As I said, force confessions are also very commonly relied

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Speaker 1: upon during RSDL force confession which is highly scripted and

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Speaker 1: then often broadcast on state television. But we've seen some

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Speaker 1: force confessions that are then also broadcast internationally, either through

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Speaker 1: Chinese state television or even in some other rebroadcasts are

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Speaker 1: under the guise of a news report or news media,

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Speaker 1: and so what you have is really an institutionalized form

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Speaker 1: of secret arbitrary detention, which can amount to an enforced

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Speaker 1: disappearance and an enforced disappearance is when the state takes

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Speaker 1: somebody refuses to acknowledge their fatal whereabouts, you know, simply put,

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Speaker 1: but it's not only a human rights violation. An enforced

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Speaker 1: disappearance is really a very serious crime under international law,

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Speaker 1: and when it's widespread or systematic, it actually can qualify

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Speaker 1: as a crime against humanity. Now, there are many painous

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Speaker 1: actions around the world being perpetrated by governments on marginalized communities,

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Speaker 1: and though I think we need to be very careful

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Speaker 1: when we start to throw around terms like crimes against humanity,

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Speaker 1: but I think it's important still to look at the

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Speaker 1: text of the law itself, the Rome Statute, for example,

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Speaker 1: of the International Criminal Court. If you applied only the

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Speaker 1: letter of the law, the frequency in which China disappears people,

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Speaker 1: how institutionalized it is through a series of laws, it

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Speaker 1: very well could qualify as a crime against humanity. And

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Speaker 1: that's why it's so serious. It's not ad hawk, it's

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Speaker 1: not individual cases, it's really something that's become systematized. Wasn't

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Speaker 1: one of the most famous movie stars in China woman

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Speaker 1: who was faced with this kind of house arrest and

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Speaker 1: was literally disappeared for like six months, even though she

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Speaker 1: was one of the highest paid people in Chinese movies. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's absolutely right. So this is an actress named Fan

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Speaker 1: Bing Bing who not only one of the highest paid

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Speaker 1: actresses in the Chinese film industry, she was actually at

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Speaker 1: one point, according to Forbes, the highest paid actress in

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Speaker 1: the world. Incredibly well known in China and a lot

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Speaker 1: of international films as well. She was an X Men,

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Speaker 1: she was in tomb Raiders. She's a big actress in

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Speaker 1: a big name. It would be like if Jennifer Lawrence

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Speaker 1: or somebody were to suddenly disappear in the US. And

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Speaker 1: the reason basically that the state gave was that there

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Speaker 1: was a financial crimes involved. But you know, the speculation

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Speaker 1: really is that she was such a powerful figure that

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Speaker 1: she represented some type of counter weight to the authority

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Speaker 1: of the party, and that in order to send a

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Speaker 1: signal to other potentially corrupt, potentially powerful or influential public

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Speaker 1: figures that no one is above the party. And so

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Speaker 1: she was disappeared and kept for months until she was released,

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Speaker 1: and as with many cases of enforces appearance in China,

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Speaker 1: she was released finally after having also delivered basically a

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Speaker 1: forced apology that was broadcast on Chinese television, but not

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Speaker 1: only her. Also there's I think another really important case

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Speaker 1: to point to was the disappearance of the former president

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Speaker 1: of Interpol, who was taken on a trip back from France,

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Speaker 1: taken in China and held likewise for months. His wife,

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Speaker 1: who still lived in France, is effectively in witness protection

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Speaker 1: because the family is still afraid that agents of the

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Speaker 1: Chinese state will try and take them and force them

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Speaker 1: back to China. So what we see with Van Bingbing,

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Speaker 1: what we see with Homeway's case, when we see with

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Speaker 1: a number of other individuals, is that no one is

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Speaker 1: above the reach of the Party, and that, especially in

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Speaker 1: the last half decade since Jinping has come to power,

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Speaker 1: one of the most effective tools of exerting the power

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Speaker 1: of the Party is through these various mechanisms that allow

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Speaker 1: for lengthy secret detention. So the average Chinese there must

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Speaker 1: be a continuous sense of insecurity. It's important to recognize

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Speaker 1: that this is a reality for people who are engaged

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Speaker 1: in developing the rule of law, people who are victims

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Speaker 1: of government abuses, But a lot of average Chinese people

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Speaker 1: don't necessarily think about this, They don't necessarily know about

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Speaker 1: this a lot of the information, of course, that we

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Speaker 1: have about the extent of human rights abuses doesn't reach

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Speaker 1: a lot of people in the country because of controlled

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Speaker 1: information flow. But for individuals who are part of the

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Speaker 1: human rights movement, who are active civil society lawyers or

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Speaker 1: independent semi independent journalists or bloggers, petitioners, individuals of that nature,

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Speaker 1: they certainly are aware of this. They're certainly the targets

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Speaker 1: of this sort of terror campaign by the government. They

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Speaker 1: themselves have probably been taken or are they know people

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Speaker 1: who have been taken, who have just disappeared one day,

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Speaker 1: maybe re emerge a few months later, or maybe not.

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Speaker 1: A former colleague of mine, incredibly brave, committed, devoted lawyer

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Speaker 1: named Wong Tranjan. In August of twenty fifteen, he sent

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Speaker 1: a message to a couple of us saying that he

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Speaker 1: had been in hiding. He was okay. We weren't sure

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Speaker 1: what had happened to him. He had disappeared for a

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Speaker 1: couple of weeks, and he said, I'm fine, I'm fine,

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Speaker 1: I'm in hiding. I'm very worried that I'm going to

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Speaker 1: be taken, but I'm going to move to another place

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Speaker 1: and I think I'll be okay, and that was the

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Speaker 1: last we heard of him. A few days later, he disappeared.

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Speaker 1: For three and a half years, there was no sign

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Speaker 1: of him, there was no word of him. We believed

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Speaker 1: we knew where he was being held. But for three

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Speaker 1: and a half years, can you imagine, no lawyer, no

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Speaker 1: family member, no one is able to see or hear

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Speaker 1: from him until this past Christmas December twenty six, the

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Speaker 1: day after Christmas, after three and a half years of disappearance,

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Speaker 1: the government put him on trial. A kangaroo court charged him,

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Speaker 1: sentenced him. He disappeared again. His wife was finally allowed

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Speaker 1: to see him nearly four years after he had disappeared.

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Speaker 1: This is a terrifying shockwave that is sent through all

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Speaker 1: of the human rights community. They know about it, hundreds

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Speaker 1: of people, but much of the average person in China,

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Speaker 1: if they to know about these things, they believe the

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Speaker 1: state propaganda that he was a criminal of some sort.

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Speaker 1: When you describe something as horrifying as that, how much

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Speaker 1: of that and the knowledge that that exists is a

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Speaker 1: part of what has motivated the people in Hong Kong

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Speaker 1: to so aggressively oppose coming within the Chinese mainland judicial system.

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Speaker 1: Certainly in Hong Kong people are much more aware. They

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Speaker 1: have free access to information. At least until now, there

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Speaker 1: is still freedom of press. There isn't the same type

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Speaker 1: of Internet restrictions, of course, so we have access to

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Speaker 1: more information with Hong Kong. In twenty fifteen, it became

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Speaker 1: a very well known famous case of what we're called

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Speaker 1: the Hong Kong booksellers. It was a group of publishers

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Speaker 1: who mostly published what we would really consider in the

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Speaker 1: West as sort of sensationalists, profiles of high level party

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Speaker 1: officials or other public officials. They were targeted because they

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Speaker 1: were embarrassing to the state. One of them is a

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Speaker 1: British citizen, a man named Liebwa, who was literally kidnapped

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Speaker 1: off the streets of Hong Kong, thrown into a van,

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Speaker 1: driven into the mainland, and reappeared in mainland China, later

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Speaker 1: claiming that he had gone to China of his own

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Speaker 1: free will. This is a British citizen Hong Kong resident.

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Speaker 1: Another case at the same time, his colleague, a man

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Speaker 1: named Guaymanhai born in mainland China Hong Kong resident, but

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Speaker 1: a Swedish citizen. He was in Thailand in October twenty

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Speaker 1: fifteen and he was kidnapped from Pattaya by Chinese agents,

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Speaker 1: smuggled across the border, and he wasn't heard from for

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Speaker 1: months until he appeared on Chinese television claiming that he

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Speaker 1: had gone back to China of his own free will.

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Speaker 1: He remains in China now. Guy Mienhi remains in China.

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Speaker 1: He's actually been forced to deliver three televised forest confessions

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Speaker 1: and he's still in He was one time in the

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Speaker 1: presence of two consular officials from the Swedish embassy on

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Speaker 1: a train on those way to Beijing. Chinese officials came

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Speaker 1: out of the train took them away from the Swedish

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00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 1: consular officials because they were worried that they were bringing

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Speaker 1: him to the embassy to then get him out of

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Speaker 1: the country. So these are Hong Kong residents that are

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Speaker 1: also citizens of other countries British and Swedish in this case,

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Speaker 1: and what happened to them. Their treatment is well known

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00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 1: in Hong Kong and often when Hong Kong residents are

432
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 1: talking about fears of extradition to China, these are the

433
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 1: types of cases that are fresh in their mind. I

434
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 1: mean talking about millions of people who are taking to

435
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,199
Speaker 1: the streets. They have a lot of different collective action

436
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:44,479
Speaker 1: frames that draw them to the streets, but these are

437
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 1: some of I think the really impactful cases that are

438
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,920
Speaker 1: on the minds of a lot of people in Hong Kong.

439
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 1: Certainly from the same point in the United States, What

440
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 1: do you think we should be doing in response to this?

441
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 1: I think it's really disheartening the years that foreign governments

442
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:08,160
Speaker 1: across the board have overlooked gross human rights violations, gross

443
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 1: abuses of its people, from religious persecution of Muslim or

444
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 1: Tibetan Buddhist minorities or Christians, to arbitrary detention torture. I mean,

445
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 1: the list goes on and it's been consistently overlooked. The

446
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 1: country had been given concessions for economic or other reasons,

447
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 1: and it's really appalling that millions of people are allowed

448
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 1: to suffer because countries are not willing to hold the

449
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 1: perpetrator accountable. And now we're slowly seeing some changes. I

450
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 1: think the news in the last few weeks from the

451
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 1: United States, the recent announcements State Department starting to blacklist

452
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 1: certain entities for their involvement in human rights abuses in

453
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 1: Shinjong is a very welcome and necessary step, but it

454
00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily go far enough. And there's other things that

455
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 1: the US government can certainly be doing. It's starting to

456
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 1: do those, such as labeling certain Chinese media entities as

457
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 1: foreign agents, which strips them of the ability to pretend

458
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 1: that they're objective news reporting when in fact they are

459
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 1: really outlets of propaganda. But there's a lot more that

460
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 1: can be done, and I think that economic sanctions pushing

461
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 1: back on companies themselves is a part of it, but

462
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 1: also the United States as a great tool at its

463
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 1: disposal in the Global Magninsky Act, and the Gold Magninsky

464
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:33,960
Speaker 1: Act is a fairly recent piece of legislation. A lot

465
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 1: of people don't know about it, but it allows at

466
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 1: an executive level to put an individual sanction, financial and

467
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 1: travel visa restriction on officials who are responsible for gross

468
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 1: human rights violations or corruption issues. And there's a number

469
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,479
Speaker 1: of Chinese officials who very much should be targeted with

470
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 1: the Magniniski Act as well. Chenango, the party secretary of Sinjyong,

471
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 1: for example, the Nia Shensi, the former head of CCTV,

472
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 1: and others. So I think there's political tools that can

473
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 1: be pursued, but very much the need to pursue economic,

474
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 1: more coercive measures to hold China accountable to what it's doing.

475
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 1: But also the United States should lead other countries and

476
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 1: support other countries to do the same. The Magninsky Act

477
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 1: is one example that also exists in Canada, that exists

478
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 1: in the United Kingdom. In Estonia, Sweden and a few

479
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 1: other countries in the EU are potentially close to passing

480
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 1: their own. The United States can help these countries to

481
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 1: push through similar legislation or to work in coordination with

482
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 1: other nations to hold China accountable. It's true China is

483
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 1: very powerful economically, and it's difficult for many countries, but

484
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 1: in coalition with other governments, there's a much greater chance

485
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 1: of holding Chinese perpetrators accountable. The way you're describing the

486
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 1: practical operation of China today, there really aren't any true

487
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 1: human rights. I mean, if you were citizen of China,

488
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 1: you actually don't have any structure of authority or structure

489
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 1: of law that you could hide behind if in fact

490
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 1: they want to come get you. I mean, is that

491
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 1: a fair statement? Overall? You're absolutely right, there isn't really

492
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 1: any fully functioning systemic rule of law, The judiciary is

493
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 1: not independent. Even defense law firms are required to have

494
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 1: party cells within them. The Party has made it very

495
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 1: clear that a lawyer's obligation, first and foremost is to

496
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 1: the party, not to their clients. This is obviously a

497
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 1: flap in the face of any concept of the rule

498
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 1: of law and the independence of the judiciary. And the

499
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 1: law in China, as much as the law in various

500
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 1: other authoritarian states, is used not as a tool to

501
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 1: protect citizens, but is used as a tool to oppress

502
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 1: citizens and to force the will and power of the party. Next,

503
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 1: why we as Americans should care about China's human rights abuses? Michael,

504
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 1: can you just tell me, from a very basic point

505
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 1: of view, why should Americans care? We should always care.

506
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 1: We're all people, and we all deserve the same treatment.

507
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 1: It's in the fundamental universality of human rights. And not

508
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 1: only should we be moved by the oppression and the

509
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 1: mistreatment of our neighbors, we should be equally moved by

510
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 1: the repression and mistreatment of people who might happen to

511
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 1: be thousands of miles away. That's on a moral level

512
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 1: or on a legal level, because it is part of

513
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 1: international law. It is universal, but I think there's also

514
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 1: on a very practical, on a very tangible level. We

515
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 1: need to be concerned about this because we have very

516
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 1: clearly seen China's long arm through economic or military or

517
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 1: political incursions and influence not only into Australian or Canadian

518
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 1: but too American systems, academic, political, and otherwise, and very

519
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 1: much if we take our freedoms as something that we

520
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 1: feel are important to protect, we need to recognize that

521
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 1: they are interconnected. And if we allow governments in other

522
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 1: countries to trample on the rights of their citizens, they

523
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,479
Speaker 1: will eventually become so emboldened that they begin to trample

524
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 1: on the rights of others. Internationally, we see that as

525
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 1: governments and countries become more powerful, and we very much

526
00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 1: see that with China now, and so we care about

527
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:03,719
Speaker 1: our our own rights as US citizens, we also need

528
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 1: to recognize that the treatment of Chinese people is also

529
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 1: very much linked to the preservation of our own rights

530
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 1: and freedoms. This has been terrific, Thanks so much, dude,

531
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 1: It was really a pleasure. Michael Castor's book The People's

532
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,840
Speaker 1: Republic of the Disappeared stories from inside China's system of

533
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,760
Speaker 1: enforced Disappearances introduces us the story of doctor Tung Biel.

534
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 1: He'll hear his candid story of disappearance. Next, I want

535
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 1: to talk about a remarkably useful app that you should

536
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 1: have on year phone. It's called Blinkest. As speaker of

537
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 1: the house, I find keeping up with issues of the day,

538
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 1: reading constantly just to know what's going on is something

539
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 1: that I both take pleasure in but is also a necessity.

540
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 1: I also travel a lot. I find the easiest way

541
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 1: to bring reading materials with me without carrying a pile

542
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 1: of books and newspapers is to use a very formative app,

543
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 1: and Blinkest may be the very best. It's really unique.

544
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:09,279
Speaker 1: With one account, you can access multiple devices. The app

545
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 1: is on my phone and my iPad. Blinkers takes the

546
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 1: best key takeaways the need to know information from thousands

547
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 1: of non fiction books and condenses them down into just

548
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 1: fifteen minutes that you can read or listen to. I

549
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 1: think blinks really matters because it gives you the main

550
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 1: points of a book, which then helps you evaluate which

551
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 1: books you want to read all of Two of the

552
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 1: ones I really recommend are James Donovan's Shoot for the

553
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:39,800
Speaker 1: Moon and Fred Kaplan's Dark Territory about the secret history

554
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 1: of cyberwork. Check them out and see what you think.

555
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 1: It's a great concept. Blinkest will give you a way

556
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:48,359
Speaker 1: to get big ideas in small packages. It will help

557
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 1: make you more effective and more efficient, and you can

558
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:54,440
Speaker 1: start learning now. With Blinkest, you get unlimited access to

559
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 1: read or listen to a massive library of condensed nonfiction books,

560
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 1: all the books you want, and all for one low

561
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 1: price right now. For a limited time, Blinkest as a

562
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:05,799
Speaker 1: special offer just for our audience, go to blinkest dot

563
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:08,319
Speaker 1: com slash newt. Try it free for seven days and

564
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:11,719
Speaker 1: save twenty five percent off your new subscription. That's Blinkest

565
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 1: spelled b l I n k I s T blinkest

566
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 1: dot com slash newt to start your free seven day

567
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 1: trial and you'll also save twenty five percent off, but

568
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 1: only when you sign up at blinkest dot com slash newt.

569
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:35,879
Speaker 1: Doctor turn bout. What's it like to be detained by

570
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 1: the Chinese government? I was kittenant and detained full three times,

571
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:47,320
Speaker 1: but I was never detained in the legal detention center

572
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 1: or a prison. Every time where I was detaining that

573
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:57,319
Speaker 1: black black tail, I didn't even know where these prisons located.

574
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 1: It looked like a hotel, like the training center, and

575
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 1: I was tortured there. I was put under a solitary confinement.

576
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:12,879
Speaker 1: It's an extreme form of solitary confinement. I was prohibited

577
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 1: to read, to write, to contact with my family or lawyer.

578
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:22,759
Speaker 1: And I was forced to wear a handcuff twenty four

579
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 1: seven and lasting seventy days. And I was forced to

580
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:31,720
Speaker 1: sit down on the ground in a fixed position facing

581
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 1: the wall. If I moved a little bit, I would

582
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:41,520
Speaker 1: be beaten. So many humorous lawyers and activists experienced the

583
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 1: similar culture in two Sermon and eleven and it's rempant

584
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:55,000
Speaker 1: this enforced disappearance and torture and abduction. The Tennis government,

585
00:37:55,200 --> 00:38:01,760
Speaker 1: especially the state security, don't respect the obstitution and laws

586
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 1: at all. So what was happening to your family, Well,

587
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:09,800
Speaker 1: you were going through all this. So I was disappeared

588
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 1: for three times, and my family, my wife and my kids,

589
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 1: had no idea where I was. They were so scared,

590
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 1: and my house was broken in and they searched my

591
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:27,680
Speaker 1: entire house, took away my computers and my books, and

592
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 1: so my kids very young at that time. So I

593
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 1: think their mental damage was there and it was difficult

594
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 1: to be remedied. Even after I went to the United States.

595
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:48,240
Speaker 1: My family became a target. So when I came to

596
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 1: the United States, one of my children, my wife, my

597
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 1: daughter were prevented from leaving China. So it's obvious that

598
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 1: they were used by Chinese Comment as hostages. They used

599
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:07,360
Speaker 1: my wife and my daughter to punish me and to

600
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 1: silence me. When we asked them why they were stopped

601
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:16,360
Speaker 1: from going to the United States, and the Chinese comment

602
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 1: officials told them it's because of my political activities make

603
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 1: him much work. And they didn't tell us how long

604
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:30,840
Speaker 1: we could have familis with Union, so eventually we decided

605
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 1: to smuggle them out. So it was a risky journey

606
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 1: from China Burma border to Laws to Thailand. They rapp

607
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:47,839
Speaker 1: in the United States, you got to go to the

608
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 1: Chinese University of Hong Kong as a visiting scholar. Given

609
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:56,279
Speaker 1: your run ins with the police, why did they let

610
00:39:56,320 --> 00:40:00,720
Speaker 1: you go to Hong Kong. I was invited by Tinese

611
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 1: University of Hong Kong. My passport was confiscated in two

612
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:12,920
Speaker 1: Cementer eight. Before that, I visited United States and France

613
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:17,320
Speaker 1: and a few other countries, and I criticized Tennis government

614
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:21,840
Speaker 1: as I did in China. I was even a visiting

615
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:25,759
Speaker 1: scholar at Yale Law School in two seminy seven. But

616
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 1: after that they troop away my passport and I was

617
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:34,359
Speaker 1: kept in Tennis for five years. And then in late

618
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 1: two Cement twelve, I don't know why, but when I

619
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 1: applied for a Yal passport they did give me and

620
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 1: then I received invitation from Tennis University of Hong Kong

621
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:51,359
Speaker 1: and I went to Hong Kong. So I think it's

622
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 1: quite arbitrary. One Tennis government designs who can go out,

623
00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 1: who cannot. Some outs can activists should go out and

624
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 1: go back, and some other activists were never allowed to

625
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:14,239
Speaker 1: leave Tina. So the decision very arbitrary. And there is

626
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:17,840
Speaker 1: no rule of law, and of course it's against the

627
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:23,879
Speaker 1: law when the government stops people from international travel. If

628
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:29,160
Speaker 1: I understand your experience, there is no real rule of

629
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:32,480
Speaker 1: law in China. If the police want to, they just

630
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:36,360
Speaker 1: make up their own rules. There's no law in Tina.

631
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:41,880
Speaker 1: The court, the judges are controlled by the Communist Party.

632
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 1: The constitution is not bad. If we read the articles

633
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 1: that all these kind of fundamental human rights and freedom

634
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:55,920
Speaker 1: like rights to vote, religious freedom, freedom or expression. All

635
00:41:56,000 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 1: these things were written in Chinese constitution, but of course

636
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:06,240
Speaker 1: they are not respected, they are not implemented. And the police,

637
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 1: the government officials abuse power every day, especially when dealing

638
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 1: critically sensitive cases. Do you think it's gotten worse, musician

639
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:23,360
Speaker 1: pain or better? It's getting much much worse. When Hitting

640
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:28,760
Speaker 1: Ping came to power, It's totally different. The creckt down

641
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 1: the persecution were so severe that every force of the

642
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:42,800
Speaker 1: civil society has been targeted. Lawyers, journalists, independent scholars, dissident

643
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:49,800
Speaker 1: until activist and the Grand churches and internet, Tibetans and rigars.

644
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:55,440
Speaker 1: The humanized situation has been detervating, very very much. Listen,

645
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 1: I want to thank you. This has been extraordinary. You

646
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:02,799
Speaker 1: have great courage. What you're doing I think is very important.

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Speaker 1: You'll reck him. Thank you very much. Full Heavy. In

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Speaker 1: my new book Trump Versus China, Facing America's Greatest Threat,

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00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:17,960
Speaker 1: I describe in detail the new era of competition with

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Speaker 1: communist ruled China that the United States now faces. It

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00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 1: impacts every American and it is important to understand and

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00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:28,920
Speaker 1: recognize how we got to where we are today and

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00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:31,719
Speaker 1: what we must do as a country to survive. I

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00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 1: encourage you to pick up a copy of Trump Versus China,

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Speaker 1: available October twenty second. Thank you to my guests Doctor

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00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 1: Tung Biel and Michael Castor. You can learn more about

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00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:51,760
Speaker 1: what it's like to live in modern day communist China

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Speaker 1: on our show page at newtsworld dot com. Newtsworld is

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00:43:56,480 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 1: produced by Westwood One. Our executive producer is Debbie and

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00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:04,759
Speaker 1: our producer is Gornzi Slam. Our editor is Robert Borowski,

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00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 1: and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. Our guest booker is

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00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:12,759
Speaker 1: Grace Davis. The artwork for the show was created by

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00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:17,720
Speaker 1: Steve Penley. The music was composed by Joey Selvin. Special

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Speaker 1: thanks to the team at Gingrich Ward sixty and Westwood Ones,

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00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:24,759
Speaker 1: John Wardock and Robert Mathers. Please email me with your

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00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 1: comments at newt at newtsworld dot com. If you've been

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00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 1: enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple Podcasts and

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00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:34,880
Speaker 1: both rate us with five stars and give us a

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Speaker 1: review so others can learn what it's all about. On

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00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:45,279
Speaker 1: the next episode of Newtsworld, we're continuing our three part

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Speaker 1: series in China, taking a closer look at China and

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00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 1: Russia's strategic alliance. Vladimir Putin and Jijimping have met seven

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00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:57,400
Speaker 1: times over the past year. They've met twenty four times

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Speaker 1: twenty thirteen, so they obviously have prioritized this on the

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00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 1: political level. Whoever dominates Asia is a global power. I'm

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Speaker 1: new Gangwich. This is a new world, The Westwood One

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Speaker 1: podcast network