Speaker 1: Just pull the car over. Stop driving in a direction
Speaker 1: that you think you should go in it because your directionless.
Speaker 1: Right now stop, let all the cars drive past you
Speaker 1: and enjoy the fact that you're actually stopping.
Speaker 2: It was Zing Low, Same Low International, DJ Apple Music's
Speaker 2: creative director. I love you there.
Speaker 1: I'd rather just start. I already have a big introduction.
Speaker 1: I really genuinely thought, I'm just going to live with
Speaker 1: these aches. This will be it for the rest of
Speaker 1: my life. Why would you want to live with pain?
Speaker 1: How do you work them? Where you achieve them more?
Speaker 1: You achieve them where you tell yourself you're okay, the
Speaker 1: where you tell us off you're okay. Not dealing with
Speaker 1: the ship.
Speaker 2: Before we jump into this episode, I'd like to invite
Speaker 2: you to join this community to hear more interviews that
Speaker 2: will help you become happier, healthier, and more healed. All
Speaker 2: I want you to do is click on the subscribe button.
Speaker 2: I love your support. It's incredible to see all your
Speaker 2: comments and we're just getting started. I can't wait to
Speaker 2: go on this journey with you. Thank you so much
Speaker 2: for subscribing. It means the world to me. The best
Speaker 2: selling author and close the number one healthy well in
Speaker 2: the podcast Purpose with Ja Shetty, how do you describe
Speaker 2: what do you do? How do you like to choose?
Speaker 2: Because I feel like when you have a role that
Speaker 2: is public, like I always get asked what do you
Speaker 2: want your lower third to say? And I don't like
Speaker 2: being defined by the lists of roles in titles. So
Speaker 2: how would you describe what you do or what you
Speaker 2: believe in?
Speaker 1: I agree, I mean, I think roles and titles make
Speaker 1: it easier to work with other people with roles and titles,
Speaker 1: but I think in life it's different. In my life,
Speaker 1: I'm just a fan. I'm just a I'm a fan.
Speaker 1: I'm someone who discovers something very early on in life
Speaker 1: that stuck with me. I knew it was going to
Speaker 1: be very special and important to my development, to my identity,
Speaker 1: to helping me find my way in life. And once
Speaker 1: I kind of made it a singularity rather than one
Speaker 1: of many hobbies. It just I just tried to immerse
Speaker 1: myself in as much of it as possible, like almost obsessively.
Speaker 1: And so I'm just a big, big fan of what
Speaker 1: I love, which outside of my family and friends as music.
Speaker 1: So I'm just I'm just a super fan that is.
Speaker 2: I love that. That's such a great cool way of
Speaker 2: defining yourself with with that you've sat down with Obviously
Speaker 2: so many incredible artists and beautiful interviews I've watched your
Speaker 2: One of my favorite interviews is yours with Harry Stalze.
Speaker 2: That was I thought that was brilliant. But when was
Speaker 2: the first time you felt like a fan when you
Speaker 2: hadn't met someone? Like, when was the first time you
Speaker 2: felt like a real fan when you didn't sit opposite
Speaker 2: that person and you didn't know that person? And do
Speaker 2: you remember that moment? You mean, like at a concert
Speaker 2: and stuff at a concert, or like when you bought
Speaker 2: your first record, or like where was that experience of
Speaker 2: your first moment?
Speaker 1: Beautiful question at the gate bro, Like, what an amazing question.
Speaker 1: The first time I really I really realized that it
Speaker 1: was chemical. It was It wasn't really a something by design,
Speaker 1: it was it was reactive. Was probably going and seeing
Speaker 1: a band called Split Ends, which is arguably New Zealand's
Speaker 1: most influential and legendary band. They were around predominantly in
Speaker 1: the seventies and had a lot of success in the
Speaker 1: eighties in the In the in the late eighties, they
Speaker 1: splintered off and neil Finn left to go and form
Speaker 1: Crowded House, And of course everyone knows Crowded House and
Speaker 1: neil Finn don't dream it's over, and you know, he
Speaker 1: had a huge He's had huge success in a huge career,
Speaker 1: has other members of that band, but and in their heyday.
Speaker 1: When I went saw them as a kid with my mom,
Speaker 1: I think being in that crowd and reacting the way
Speaker 1: I did to the music, which I don't really remember.
Speaker 1: My mum always told me that it was. It was
Speaker 1: almost like an out of body experience, like I was
Speaker 1: like I was in church or something like I wasn't.
Speaker 1: I wasn't listening to the music in the same way
Speaker 1: that she'd seen me at home, or she she was
Speaker 1: looking left and right. I was somewhere else for the
Speaker 1: entire Yeah, in a way, in some kind of chance.
Speaker 1: And so that's when I think she realized, oh, this
Speaker 1: it grabs this kid. And then I think also going
Speaker 1: and seeing start making sense the movie by Talking Hiss
Speaker 1: was when I realized, like I wanted to get as
Speaker 1: close to because it was different with split Ins, they
Speaker 1: were right there on the stage, but seeing talking kids
Speaker 1: on that screen, and I made my mom take me
Speaker 1: to that movie two days in a row. As a
Speaker 1: young person but a little bit older that that was
Speaker 1: when I was like, oh, how do I get to them?
Speaker 1: Like they're on a big movie screen right now. How
Speaker 1: do I get to them? Like Split Ends is down
Speaker 1: the road, but Talking Heads is somewhere like theymy as
Speaker 1: well be on Mars. You know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a beautiful answer. Yeah, I love the I
Speaker 2: love the idea of first I remember that. I think
Speaker 2: the first movie I saw in theaters was Cool Runnings,
Speaker 2: which I love the incredible, such a great first experience
Speaker 2: at the theaters, and.
Speaker 1: I was like, I don't know anyone who doesn't love
Speaker 1: that film.
Speaker 2: I know. It was just it was such a great
Speaker 2: like first experience. And then my first album that I
Speaker 2: properly listened to. So it's weirdly I talk about this.
Speaker 2: I haven't talked about this a lot, but it makes
Speaker 2: sense talking about it with you. Like I grew up
Speaker 2: in a home where I was encouraged to learn how
Speaker 2: to play instruments, but we never listened to a lot
Speaker 2: of music.
Speaker 1: Interesting, So it was more discipline than and enjoyment level.
Speaker 2: Correct, it was more like an extracurricular academic activity because
Speaker 2: it would look good on my resume when I applied
Speaker 2: to a better school later on, and it really hampered
Speaker 2: my ability to love instruments. And so I grew up
Speaker 2: playing the piano. I did grade up to grade four
Speaker 2: in the piano. I did grade five theory.
Speaker 1: I played percussion all the while not really knowing what
Speaker 1: listening to music the feeling is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was no feeling. And then I turned twelve
Speaker 2: or thirteen when I kind of stopped doing that, and
Speaker 2: I was introduced to Eminem for the first time through
Speaker 2: a friends school.
Speaker 1: So you went from studying an instrument and not really
Speaker 1: being exposed to the enjoyment of music to listening to Eminem.
Speaker 2: Yes, literally that was it. That was exactly it.
Speaker 1: And I know what you're eating any sugar in the
Speaker 1: house and then eventually, look, here's a sixtier chocolate diccake.
Speaker 2: Decad and delicious and just yeah. And I remember getting
Speaker 2: from a guy at school and he had he had
Speaker 2: like the he had the Infinite album too, which was, yeah,
Speaker 2: the first one, and I remember putting it on and
Speaker 2: feeling like such a fan where in a way that
Speaker 2: I've never you know, felt again, maybe even then that
Speaker 2: first is so important. But with you, what do you
Speaker 2: think has changed about your relationship with being a fan?
Speaker 2: You said you're still a fan, but like, what was
Speaker 2: it like being a fan back then? And what is
Speaker 2: it like being a fan back now? When you're so
Speaker 2: close to the industry, You are the industry in so
Speaker 2: many ways, you define what takes off, what doesn't like
Speaker 2: you're so close to it all. What has changed in
Speaker 2: being a fan?
Speaker 1: A lot? Nothing? I mean, you know, the simple question
Speaker 1: is very little. I mean, the distance between who I
Speaker 1: was in that concert and who I am today is
Speaker 1: very It's a very short distance. I still get the
Speaker 1: same sense of I still I can still find myself
Speaker 1: in that space where I'm lost. You know, I can
Speaker 1: still put on music and my headphones and go for
Speaker 1: a walk and end up in floods of tears quietly
Speaker 1: on my own. You know. It's it's something that is
Speaker 1: deep affects me deeply, and I haven't had to work
Speaker 1: to hold on to that. That's how I know I'm
Speaker 1: in the right place in my life. You know. In
Speaker 1: terms of the industry side of it, that's a whole
Speaker 1: other conversation. I Mean, everything's changed there, and I think
Speaker 1: finding myself in any room or in any seat, or
Speaker 1: behind any microphone, or in any conversation or in any studio,
Speaker 1: to me, was always a privilege. I didn't know how
Speaker 1: to get in those rooms. I didn't know how to
Speaker 1: do that. I didn't come from a background where the
Speaker 1: kind of music industry I wanted to move into the
Speaker 1: area I wanted to move in my life made sense.
Speaker 1: My dad is from a radio background, so okay, you
Speaker 1: can see that makes more sense. But that wasn't my
Speaker 1: intention as a kid. I didn't wake up in want
Speaker 1: to follow my father's footsteps. He knows this. I wanted
Speaker 1: to be in recording studios and make music my whole life,
Speaker 1: and I didn't know how to get there. And I
Speaker 1: didn't know what a music industry was. And I mean,
Speaker 1: there was no music industry really in New Zealand, and
Speaker 1: some might even argue that there is, but it's specific
Speaker 1: to that environment. It's not London, it's not New York,
Speaker 1: it's not Tokyo, it's not Germany wherever. So that is
Speaker 1: a journey that I can't even put into context myself.
Speaker 1: And I think you know this more than anyone, right, Like,
Speaker 1: stay in the moment and absorb the situation, learn and
Speaker 1: move forward. And I think I was doing that without
Speaker 1: him realizing it, because I couldn't have charted this path.
Speaker 2: Well, that makes your journey even more fascinating to me,
Speaker 2: because you're right, you didn't grow up in a space
Speaker 2: that naturally lended itself to the career you have today.
Speaker 2: Do you remember if you could track back for us
Speaker 2: even before what consciously comes to mind? What was that
Speaker 2: first step to say I'm going to pursue this, Because
Speaker 2: I feel today it's really fascinating that there's even more choices.
Speaker 2: In one sense, there's even more access. But people who
Speaker 2: are listening today, even myself a few years ago, I
Speaker 2: found myself having the limiting belief and the hopelessness almost
Speaker 2: of my dreams really far away. I don't think it's possible.
Speaker 2: Those kind of things don't happen to people like me.
Speaker 2: I'm not set up to succeed.
Speaker 1: Because I think that in that moment in time, and
Speaker 1: I've felt that many times in my life. I think
Speaker 1: that what happens is where it are most effective, when
Speaker 1: we have some kind of singularity to focus on. You know,
Speaker 1: it's like this is what I love, this is who
Speaker 1: I love this is the person I most want to
Speaker 1: have this conversation with in my life right now. This
Speaker 1: is what I need to do to be healthy. And
Speaker 1: I think when we're focused on things that are ultimately
Speaker 1: giving us purpose, we manifest without even realizing it, you know.
Speaker 1: And I think when we get into that place of
Speaker 1: hopelessness that you've been, and I've been, and others have
Speaker 1: been in an r in, it's when we split that
Speaker 1: singularity up into fifty five things, one hundred things, a
Speaker 1: thousand things, a million things. At best, they contradict each
Speaker 1: other or count each other. At worse, they actively fight
Speaker 1: for your attention, and you can't give your attention to everything.
Speaker 1: And so that's where you end up just standing still,
Speaker 1: questioning your own purpose, your own abilities, because it seems
Speaker 1: hard just to take a step forward because there's so
Speaker 1: much noise that's around you. When I've been at my
Speaker 1: most effective and best for myself is when I've been
Speaker 1: least affected by that noise and the most focused on
Speaker 1: what I know is moving me emotionally and inspirationally in
Speaker 1: my life.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: That's I've never heard it put that way, but that
Speaker 2: resonates deeply. I remember I sat down with one of
Speaker 2: my spiritual teachers, probably when I was maybe like ten
Speaker 2: years ago, and I said, I've got all these ideas.
Speaker 2: I want to do all these things, but I don't
Speaker 2: know where to start. It was what you just described
Speaker 2: that like fragmented, distracted, yes, static, static, Yeah. And I
Speaker 2: said to him, I just I don't know where to start.
Speaker 2: And he said something beautiful to me. He said, he said,
Speaker 2: open every door that you possibly can. And then he
Speaker 2: said the doors that close, let them close, and just
Speaker 2: keep walking through the ones that remain open. That's amazing
Speaker 2: And it was the best advice I've ever got in life, Yeah,
Speaker 2: because I felt like all of us were just standing
Speaker 2: at one door or ten doors, just trying to open
Speaker 2: all of them.
Speaker 1: You know. All my wife says to me when I
Speaker 1: get like that, she's like, pull not literally, and maybe
Speaker 1: sometimes literally, but she says, pull car over. And what
Speaker 1: she means is is that just pull the car over.
Speaker 1: Stop driving in a direction that you think you should
Speaker 1: go in, because you directionless right now and you're actually
Speaker 1: possibly driving yourself further away from where you should be.
Speaker 1: Pull the car over. Stop, let all the cars drive
Speaker 1: past you, and don't worry about where they're going. Let
Speaker 1: the traffic go past, you, don't worry about it, just
Speaker 1: to enjoy the fact that you're actually stopping. Ignore the traffic,
Speaker 1: ignore everyone else, Focus on where you want to go,
Speaker 1: Choose your direction, and focus on it. Because right now,
Speaker 1: and this is I mean, you know, when she's at
Speaker 1: her most lull, she's like, because right now you're veering
Speaker 1: all over the freeway. You're like, you have no idea
Speaker 1: where you're going, and you know it's to me that
Speaker 1: kind of it speaks a similar truth, which is we're all,
Speaker 1: in everyday life, entirely capable of just of being distracted
Speaker 1: and distracting ourselves and allowing us to ourselves to be distracted.
Speaker 1: And it's a part of life because it's noisy. It's
Speaker 1: really noisy, And especially the older you get, the more
Speaker 1: you see, the more you absorb, the more you try
Speaker 1: to own, the more you try to find yourself through
Speaker 1: the things you own. This is an awesome space. But
Speaker 1: you've got stuff in here, right at some point if
Speaker 1: you leave, you've got to figure out where this stuff
Speaker 1: goes You take it, do you leave it? These are
Speaker 1: all decisions, right, everything's a decision. And I think that
Speaker 1: you know, when we're probably most capable of making the
Speaker 1: decisions that ultimately charter a path of true holistic and
Speaker 1: spiritual and also just ambition level value is when we're
Speaker 1: focused on simplicity, simple things. Yeah, it's true, simple doors,
Speaker 1: It's true.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's what I've found really attractive is a
Speaker 2: peaceful mind and an internal simplicity allows for navigation of
Speaker 2: external chaos.
Speaker 1: It makes us more capable of moving through that thrash.
Speaker 2: Yes, correct, Yeah, Like I've always thought about what I've
Speaker 2: tried to work on a lot, and I work on
Speaker 2: every day because I'm not there. Yeah, is to refine
Speaker 2: my internal intention to be so simple and clear that
Speaker 2: then the external complexity which naturally comes with being an
Speaker 2: entrepreneur and running a business and everything else that comes
Speaker 2: with trying to make an impact and and trying to
Speaker 2: provide for your family and the people you love. But
Speaker 2: it's like the reason for doing it is just one
Speaker 2: little dark.
Speaker 1: Oh d, my most indecisive. I probably had a few
Speaker 1: nights drinking some wine. My work is really busy, and
Speaker 1: I'm not really seeing I'm not I'm not seeing it.
Speaker 1: I'm not seeing the playbook for that week. And someone
Speaker 1: can call me and ask me the most simple thing,
Speaker 1: and I can't make that decision. And that's it's because
Speaker 1: to your point, I've clouded my own ability to be decisive.
Speaker 1: And sometimes it's not it's not it's not my decisions.
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's just stuff going off around you. I Mean,
Speaker 1: the thing is as well about about trying to find
Speaker 1: that internal balance, that clarity internally is that that's where
Speaker 1: the most noise is. I mean that this all pales
Speaker 1: to that. Like, think about every experience and every memory
Speaker 1: and everything and whether it's trauma or joy that we're
Speaker 1: absorbing all the time. Like that's why I love therapy
Speaker 1: so much. And if you can do it and you
Speaker 1: can afford it, and it's something that you would are
Speaker 1: willing to try, I'm a big believer in it because
Speaker 1: it's to me, just creates space. It just helps you,
Speaker 1: like down like thirty percent of the trash and now
Speaker 1: I have space to fill it with stuff based on
Speaker 1: my learnings and what I truly know about myself that
Speaker 1: is a value to me, versus the stuff that I
Speaker 1: either inherited that I never wanted in the first place,
Speaker 1: or stuff that I thought I wanted that it's not
Speaker 1: actually good for me, Like just get rid all that, right,
Speaker 1: and it's a good, great way to clear out. And
Speaker 1: because that is to me the noisiest for me, that
Speaker 1: is way noisier than what's outside this door way noisier.
Speaker 1: So you say you're not there yet, I'm never going
Speaker 1: to get there, Jay, But I love I love the process.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the pursuit. But I like the way you
Speaker 2: describe therapy as a clear out because I don't think
Speaker 2: that's how it's often always seen. And it's really interesting, right.
Speaker 2: We all know I need to clean my wardrobe out
Speaker 2: and need to get rid of some of my clothes,
Speaker 2: and it feels good when you do it, and it
Speaker 2: feels good when you do, but we don't think about
Speaker 2: our thoughts that way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And we are finite. We have finite space. I
Speaker 1: think we have finite ability to be able to process,
Speaker 1: certainly emotionally, and the way that we process information and
Speaker 1: how it makes us feel a lot of our feelings
Speaker 1: are wasted, are a waste, Yeah, because we get driven
Speaker 1: by ego, We get or it takes us back to
Speaker 1: a time in our life we weren't happy, or it
Speaker 1: triggers something that we're as unresolved, and our feelings then
Speaker 1: dictate our actions. But if we're not creating space for
Speaker 1: us to be able to fill ourselves with good things,
Speaker 1: then then our feelings sometimes again, our feelings just won't
Speaker 1: be They won't honor us.
Speaker 2: I think, wow, yeah, that you've reminded me of a
Speaker 2: study that I read a while ago that said, and
Speaker 2: it may be different now because of just how fast
Speaker 2: things are changing, but it was saying that the human
Speaker 2: brain has the ability to compute like seventy four gigabytes
Speaker 2: of daya or a day, but we just filling it
Speaker 2: up with like we're easily consuming that much that isn't selected,
Speaker 2: cleared out, curated, it's just being filled up with what's
Speaker 2: coming back.
Speaker 1: And we're always going to have to because we can't
Speaker 1: like control the fallacy, and we can't dictate how our
Speaker 1: life works in terms of who gives us what information
Speaker 1: and how we process things and who tries to you know,
Speaker 1: how we unload energy on each other, and that's just
Speaker 1: part of being a human and living in a society.
Speaker 1: But what it does allow us to do is to
Speaker 1: be conscious of that and to allow ourselves the way
Speaker 1: I always look at it as like a meter in
Speaker 1: the red right, if you look at this old kind
Speaker 1: of like I don't know if the ge gigameters whatever, whatever.
Speaker 1: You've got the needle here, and the last kind of
Speaker 1: ten percent is red. It's always red, yes, yes, yes, right,
Speaker 1: the rest of it's white. Everything's great bad, oh good bad, right,
Speaker 1: And if you haven't got the ability to be able
Speaker 1: to process it properly, then then even if you wake
Speaker 1: up in the morning and you sort of back to
Speaker 1: sort of thirty because you're restless, you've got some anxiety
Speaker 1: when you wake up, if you haven't got the space
Speaker 1: figured out the smallest thing, and you back in the red,
Speaker 1: what I try to do is have it go like
Speaker 1: that and then when it gets to about seventy, figure
Speaker 1: out how I get it back down to thirty. So
Speaker 1: if it does get in the red, I've just I've
Speaker 1: got more of an ability to process and to manage
Speaker 1: those feelings.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, definitely one of the things I met. I
Speaker 2: wanted to go back a couple of steps with something
Speaker 2: you mentioned that was beautiful where you described your trance
Speaker 2: like experience almost of being lost, and it reminded me
Speaker 2: of the visual which I think Baz Lehrman did a
Speaker 2: great job of in the New Elvis movie, like when
Speaker 2: you see.
Speaker 1: It like the movie.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I really like the visual storytelling of it. I
Speaker 2: thought it was and the music was spectacular. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: thought the scenes of young Elvis having those trance like
Speaker 2: experiences was really really special. And I wonder what did
Speaker 2: it feel like when maybe were you were DJing, you
Speaker 2: were creating that you saw people having that kind of
Speaker 2: experience to you. How was it like almost being on
Speaker 2: the opposite end.
Speaker 1: Well, the reason I chose to DJA in the first
Speaker 1: place was because I think there's always been performative part
Speaker 1: of my nature that I sort of turn till my
Speaker 1: back's too strong a term. But as I found myself
Speaker 1: in the in the media side of things, and I
Speaker 1: guess connecting the artists to the fan, which I love
Speaker 1: to do, it mean, I didn't really have so much
Speaker 1: of an outlet for that until I got to radio,
Speaker 1: and then I guess that started to come out in
Speaker 1: the way I broadcast, in the way that I played records.
Speaker 1: It was very I was very sort of like and
Speaker 1: I still am, but very much during my time at
Speaker 1: the BBC, I was very active with the music. I
Speaker 1: liked to use effex and reverbs and sing along with
Speaker 1: the songs and pull them up and explode them and
Speaker 1: in them early, and I just saw them as things
Speaker 1: to kind of play with rather than just press play,
Speaker 1: sit back, think of something to say, wait for the
Speaker 1: song to end, say it. That is actually the most
Speaker 1: respectful way to treat music in the media. And my
Speaker 1: favorite DJs do that. Not all of them, but some
Speaker 1: of my favorite DJs are the ones who pull a
Speaker 1: song up and play it five times in thirty minutes
Speaker 1: and scream over it and get me excited and make
Speaker 1: me connect to the music in a different way. That's
Speaker 1: an example of the performative side of who I am.
Speaker 1: And so I started to get that outlet and radio
Speaker 1: and then and then I was like, well, you know,
Speaker 1: I miss being on stage. I missed up being in
Speaker 1: front of crowds. How would I carve up up space
Speaker 1: for myself as a DJ? And when I started to
Speaker 1: sort of carve out my idea as a DJ, I
Speaker 1: was trying to do so in a way that was
Speaker 1: built out of the kind of chaos that I love
Speaker 1: about music, the genre and indefinable genre violence of the clash,
Speaker 1: Like I don't know what they make half the time?
Speaker 1: Right the way the bomb squad made public enemy records
Speaker 1: and ice CBE records and just like whoa is that
Speaker 1: a chainsaw? Like what's going on? Like how did the
Speaker 1: young on? What do they just do? Did they stop
Speaker 1: that the way the Beastie Boys did it with pause boutique?
Speaker 1: You know, you know, And I got all my stuff,
Speaker 1: I'm going back to New York City. What the heck?
Speaker 1: I do believe I've had enough? Do do do do?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 1: What are they dropping in? Where are they going? What's happening?
Speaker 1: Why is this happening? What's going on? Like it's just
Speaker 1: full of surprises, left turns, right turns. The whole thing
Speaker 1: is just completely predictable. And I tried to do that.
Speaker 1: So I say all that to say that I had
Speaker 1: to learn how to put people in a chance, because
Speaker 1: most of the time I think I was just hurting them.
Speaker 1: There's sensibilities at least, you know. I was just like
Speaker 1: that was just like whoa. And some kids got it
Speaker 1: and we're like this is awesome. And some kids were like, man,
Speaker 1: I just want a house mix, like you just like
Speaker 1: mix something and blend something, you know, So I mean
Speaker 1: my I mean for me, like the joy I got
Speaker 1: out when I was djaing of watching the way people
Speaker 1: reacted to music, was just realizing that in that in
Speaker 1: that moment in time, whatever else was going And I'm
Speaker 1: sure every artist would tell you this. Who gets to
Speaker 1: step on a stage and do anything in that environment
Speaker 1: knowing that in that moment in time, whatever else has
Speaker 1: happened before or they're worried about happening after, doesn't really
Speaker 1: matter that as far as being in the moment is concerned.
Speaker 1: You get to share in that with people, and you
Speaker 1: get to try to create an environment without matter. And
Speaker 1: every DJ that I've ever played with or toured with
Speaker 1: the greats of all time right through to you know,
Speaker 1: my friends, that's what really is that if you boil
Speaker 1: it down to it to its primary source, I think
Speaker 1: it's about creating a community experience that exists in the moment,
Speaker 1: that is free of the thrash of life and is
Speaker 1: really there to just inspire people to go into that
Speaker 1: space that I was in as a kid. Yeah, that
Speaker 1: and not have to socialize with people, which if you're
Speaker 1: socially anxious like me, then be a DJ. It protects
Speaker 1: you you never to speak to anyone needing again for
Speaker 1: the rest of your life. You don't want to, you know,
Speaker 1: what expects you to.
Speaker 2: I was going to ask you that, like you you
Speaker 2: touched on like the importance of therapy and you're saying
Speaker 2: that's worked for you. What was it initially that guided
Speaker 2: you in that direction? A how did you why did
Speaker 2: you specifically choose to therapy as a modality to support
Speaker 2: you in whatever you're looking at, and what were you
Speaker 2: looking for from it?
Speaker 1: Parenthood? You know, I became a father, and I realized
Speaker 1: in that moment that I was ill prepared to be
Speaker 1: to share my best, and so I had to do
Speaker 1: the work in order to be at my best. And
Speaker 1: I'm incredibly grateful to my wife and to my friends
Speaker 1: and my family for encouraging me to do that. At
Speaker 1: the time, I was at my lowest point, I think,
Speaker 1: and it was really hard. But in doing that work,
Speaker 1: my life just changed for the better in every way,
Speaker 1: and ultimately, you know, gave me the ability and the
Speaker 1: tools to be able to like and love myself enough
Speaker 1: to love the people that I love more than anything
Speaker 1: in the world completely and without compromise. I think if
Speaker 1: I hadn't done that work, I think I would have
Speaker 1: always either felt compromised and my ability to love others,
Speaker 1: certainly love my kids and my wife, and be loved,
Speaker 1: and I think that, you know, that is the thing
Speaker 1: that really ultimately makes me the saddest is thinking back
Speaker 1: to that alternative and how that feels for people. I
Speaker 1: think to be loved and to love completely is the purpose.
Speaker 1: I think that is it. Someone who is feeling that
Speaker 1: sense of love and commitment has to let go of
Speaker 1: us to exist, and we have to let go to
Speaker 1: move on, and somewhere in the middle, it's just about
Speaker 1: the ability to be loved and to love.
Speaker 2: Do you think that you fell out of love with
Speaker 2: yourself or that you were never in love with yourself
Speaker 2: in the first.
Speaker 1: Wooh, I don't know. That's a great question. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know. I was definitely loved
Speaker 1: my mom and my dad and my brother. I mean,
Speaker 1: I come from a very loving family. But I think
Speaker 1: that it was a compromised environment in terms of it
Speaker 1: was a divorced environment. And so you see sides of
Speaker 1: relationships and life and the family structure that are shocking
Speaker 1: to you as a kid, and it's hard to figure
Speaker 1: out what your identity is to yourself, let alone what
Speaker 1: you need to be for everybody else. You know. I
Speaker 1: wanted to fix it and I couldn't. I didn't have
Speaker 1: the tools. I was too young. I don't know what
Speaker 1: to do. And I guess somewhere along the line, I
Speaker 1: just just lots touch with the simple ambitions of life,
Speaker 1: which are like put you try to put yourself in
Speaker 1: an environment which is as joyful as possible, around people
Speaker 1: that you love, and just try to find as much
Speaker 1: balance as you can. And I just think, I, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know, man. I mean, I definitely came from
Speaker 1: a background that was it wasn't as similar to in
Speaker 1: terms of the cause and effect as billions of people.
Speaker 1: I mean, relationships start, relationships end. I love my parents.
Speaker 1: In the end, it was the right decision for them.
Speaker 1: It was very tough for me as a kid at
Speaker 1: that moment in time, and I think what I had
Speaker 1: to do was take responsibility for that, rather than either
Speaker 1: ignore it or project some kind of really pointless blame
Speaker 1: on a scenario that was completely out of my control.
Speaker 1: It's like, okay, And so the only way I could
Speaker 1: really sort of the only point in my life I
Speaker 1: could do that was when I realized that I had
Speaker 1: something that was more important than the blame or more
Speaker 1: important than the ignoring, and that was being a dad.
Speaker 1: It's like, all right, like I need to take responsibility
Speaker 1: for how I'm processing this or not. Otherwise this beautiful
Speaker 1: future is I'm not going to get the most out
Speaker 1: of it, and neither are they.
Speaker 2: What kind of dad do you want to be in? Why?
Speaker 1: I want to be a father that and hope I
Speaker 1: am a father that provides our kids with a sense
Speaker 1: of unconditional love, A very trusting father who really leans
Speaker 1: into the principles that I hold dear, which are you know,
Speaker 1: just love and support and honesty, and I you know,
Speaker 1: I just I want our kids to know that, and
Speaker 1: they do that. I'm happy if they're happy, and I'm
Speaker 1: I want them to work hard, and I want them
Speaker 1: to be focused on that. And if they're lucky enough
Speaker 1: to find something they love, which both of them seem
Speaker 1: to have done, I want them to know that there's
Speaker 1: no substitute for the graft and for the work, and
Speaker 1: you know, for the dedication and being respectful and of
Speaker 1: your opportunities and making the most of them and keeping
Speaker 1: a keen, very sharp radar for when the door opens
Speaker 1: ever so slightly. Know how to walk in and know
Speaker 1: how to stay. But equally, I just want them to
Speaker 1: be happy, and I want to be someone who they feel,
Speaker 1: like I said, they feel unconditionally understood.
Speaker 2: That takes a lot of work on your part.
Speaker 1: Especially considering that I didn't even understand myself. So but
Speaker 1: I'm very lucky. I mean, if we're going to go there,
Speaker 1: we'll just go there. Like I you know, I have
Speaker 1: this incredible partner for life and my wife who has
Speaker 1: been I don't know how to tell you, man, I mean,
Speaker 1: she's just incredible and.
Speaker 2: Sounds it for sure. Yeah, I mean you get it,
Speaker 2: even through the advice that you said to you, but
Speaker 2: you get it.
Speaker 1: But you get it. You get it. You find someone
Speaker 1: in your life that makes you better, and then you
Speaker 1: start to figure out how you can make them better
Speaker 1: because it can't go one way. And then you've got it.
Speaker 1: Then you've got something special.
Speaker 2: Yeah, my wife is exposed to me flaws that I
Speaker 2: would have hidden for so long from the world because
Speaker 2: I could. And then all of a sudden, in a
Speaker 2: very non judgmental and non critical way, someone helps you
Speaker 2: realize not even it's so subconscious as well, it's not
Speaker 2: even like a teacher. It's not like having a coach
Speaker 2: or a guide or someone who's telling you or showing you.
Speaker 2: It's just someone who effortlessly reveals to you parts of
Speaker 2: yourself that you know they're the only one that sees
Speaker 2: it well.
Speaker 1: Love is an unspoken language a lot time. I mean
Speaker 1: that's why families, if you have a very loving unit
Speaker 1: around you, you were able to communicate without saying anything.
Speaker 1: And I think in a different way when you when
Speaker 1: you develop your own family, your own relationships that you
Speaker 1: know ultimately grow with you over the course of your life.
Speaker 1: It becomes more of an individual experience that builds from
Speaker 1: within that out. The language changes again, but it's still
Speaker 1: an unspoken thing. And how did you meet? Oh? Wow?
Speaker 1: I mean Cara and I met when we were kids,
Speaker 1: and you know, I always say it was love of
Speaker 1: f a sight for me. Just took you like ten
Speaker 1: years to figure it out. But we weren't we went
Speaker 1: together for that time. We just new Zealand small and
Speaker 1: we knew each other in certain circles and we were
Speaker 1: just kids growing up and running around. And then I
Speaker 1: moved to London and she followed about six to eight
Speaker 1: months after that, just on her own and just looked
Speaker 1: me up because we knew each other from back back
Speaker 1: in the day and back home, and she didn't really
Speaker 1: know anyone out there. And she's like, hey, I'm out
Speaker 1: in London if you want to get a beer, And
Speaker 1: it's a true story. We went for a beer at
Speaker 1: a pub which I think it's called the Famous Cock.
Speaker 1: I mean there's a lot of cocks in London that
Speaker 1: serve beer. Yes, right, there's famous cocks, and there's roosters
Speaker 1: and cocks, and there's like, you know, the Thames on
Speaker 1: Henley Cock and there's lots of cocks. So we went
Speaker 1: to one of those cocks, I think on Regent Street
Speaker 1: and it was me and I hope she wasn't gonna
Speaker 1: be telling you this, but I'm sure she wouldn't because
Speaker 1: it's a great footnote in our story. It was me
Speaker 1: and a good friend of ours who still is a
Speaker 1: good friend of ours called Who's and Kat Deely, who
Speaker 1: I knew from MTV, who was just getting her break
Speaker 1: in MTV and doing some great stuff as even as
Speaker 1: a young person on TV, and so we all went
Speaker 1: for a pint and that's how reconnected with her, and
Speaker 1: then from there our story started to unfold and would
Speaker 1: have to drink wine to tell her tell you the
Speaker 1: rest of that, but you know it was just long
Speaker 1: and brilliant and you know, unique, like everyone's story. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, I've known who's I mean, I wish joke
Speaker 1: I had to move halfway around the world to marry
Speaker 1: someone I'd known most of my life from home.
Speaker 2: When you've known someone for that long, I always wonder
Speaker 2: how you allow that growth on both sides, because I
Speaker 2: guess when you've known someone for that long, you've you've
Speaker 2: been three different people or at least more of who
Speaker 2: you are, and she's becoming more of who she really is. Like,
Speaker 2: how have you continued because you said you've been over
Speaker 2: together for over two decades.
Speaker 1: Or yeah, nearly twenty four years?
Speaker 2: We yeah, married for yeah twenty four years? Been married,
Speaker 2: you said exactly, which is a really long time. Congratulations?
Speaker 2: Like how was that conscious and intentional? Or you've both
Speaker 2: just been.
Speaker 1: Flowing stay together that long?
Speaker 2: To stay together? But more importantly, it seems, and it
Speaker 2: sounds from what I'm hearing, that you've kind of grown
Speaker 2: together during that time. How the growth?
Speaker 1: I think you can stay together unless you grow together,
Speaker 1: Otherwise you grow apart. Well, you know, we got we
Speaker 1: got married quickly. You know, we were together and it
Speaker 1: was like, oh, this is meant to be. And then
Speaker 1: for one reason or another, our marriage was really dictated
Speaker 1: by other things. It was like a visa issues and
Speaker 1: she'll have to go home, and because you know we would,
Speaker 1: we didn't. We didn't have a I could stay in London,
Speaker 1: she couldn't. And so you know, it really came down
Speaker 1: to like, look, if there's a future for this, then
Speaker 1: this has to be the only way forward. And so
Speaker 1: we got married and it was in a registry office
Speaker 1: and with two witnesses, you know, and it was short
Speaker 1: of telling our parents, which we did about two weeks beforehand.
Speaker 1: I mean, it would have been and we would have eloped.
Speaker 1: I mean, it was it was so fast, and you know,
Speaker 1: I think both of us felt like it was forever.
Speaker 1: But I think it's kind of too simplistic to say
Speaker 1: that we were dead, you know. I think we were
Speaker 1: just trying to keep it going.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think we were just like, look, this is really great.
Speaker 1: We don't know what the future holds, but if you
Speaker 1: have to leave and I stay, it's going to make
Speaker 1: it that much harder for us to find out and
Speaker 1: in a way that works for the kind of people
Speaker 1: that we are. I mean, not to speak for her,
Speaker 1: I'm very conscious not to do that because she's her
Speaker 1: own person, But you know, I think I think both
Speaker 1: of us just liked finding out and we're still finding out,
Speaker 1: and I think that's what's cool about it is that
Speaker 1: we didn't go and do it with some kind of
Speaker 1: major pressure, with no disrespect. I've been some incredible weddings,
Speaker 1: and I think you should be entitled to celebrate your
Speaker 1: union however you want. But for us not feeling there
Speaker 1: were one hundred and fifty pairs of eyes on us,
Speaker 1: you know, like this is for life everybody, Like, I mean,
Speaker 1: it just it just suited us to just get going,
Speaker 1: just get to work. Like we just work at one
Speaker 1: day and we're like, let's just get to work, and
Speaker 1: we have and we've been working at it ever since.
Speaker 1: And it takes work. But as someone said to me once,
Speaker 1: you know, even even the days when it seems like
Speaker 1: it's really hard work, the next day, like anything in life,
Speaker 1: the hard work pays off.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely so. Just so you know, we had four
Speaker 2: hundred people our wedding, and I'll tell you why because
Speaker 2: in an Indian household, your parents are obliged to invite
Speaker 2: every person that's ever invited them to their kids wedding.
Speaker 3: So you could literally you could start the ball rolling
Speaker 3: early and just invite everybody, whether you know them or not,
Speaker 3: and then just be like, I am set for the
Speaker 3: rest of my life. I have so many great experiences.
Speaker 1: I'm going to hell.
Speaker 2: Literally and then we get better. Right. So, literally, my
Speaker 2: parents and my life have a list of people that
Speaker 2: have to be invited to the wedding because been to
Speaker 2: their kids' weddings, love that, and so half the wedding
Speaker 2: list is like we don't know, Like my wife still
Speaker 2: talks about like walking around our reception alone. Mom's like,
Speaker 2: I have no idea who this person is. So and
Speaker 2: that's small for an Indian wedding. Like I have friends
Speaker 2: who had like five hundred and one thousand people at
Speaker 2: their wedding. We were somewhat given it away.
Speaker 1: It's not dissimilar because it's not like you're assigning like
Speaker 1: some kind of emotional contract for these people you know.
Speaker 2: No, no, no, it's not.
Speaker 1: It just comes down to it just comes down to
Speaker 1: the union, to the to the team, and it's like
Speaker 1: it either works for it doesn't. I don't hold my parents.
Speaker 1: I don't have any ill will against toward my parents
Speaker 1: or hold them responsible for the end of their marriage.
Speaker 1: It just it ceased to exist, and it happens all
Speaker 1: the time. I've got good friends going through it right now.
Speaker 2: Same. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I just think for us, we try to keep things
Speaker 1: really simple. We make each other laugh like a lot,
Speaker 1: and if it's not the same thing, she gives that
Speaker 1: to me like she dishes out a lot, you know,
Speaker 1: like you're a moron kind of stuff, you know, and
Speaker 1: I am. So it's easy. It's an easy joke. And
Speaker 1: then I think beyond that, we like each other's company,
Speaker 1: and we know that we're not always going to agree,
Speaker 1: but we know that it's not gonna it's not going
Speaker 1: to get in between the simple principles that keep us together.
Speaker 1: She's just smarter, better, way hard you know. It's just
Speaker 1: just I definitely married that.
Speaker 2: It's beautiful. You talked about having social anxiety and you know,
Speaker 2: being a DJA and talking about how we were joking
Speaker 2: about how it's easier to get away with that. But
Speaker 2: obviously in your career there's been so many opportunities, as
Speaker 2: you said, with your children. You want them to be
Speaker 2: able to walk through the door and stay there, and
Speaker 2: that requires one to kind of negotiate through that social anxiety. Sometimes.
Speaker 2: I'm sure you've had to walk into the rooms and
Speaker 2: pitch yourself and hold your own and go and then
Speaker 2: stand your ground and whatever it may be. Talk to lawyers,
Speaker 2: and you know, there's so much to it when you're
Speaker 2: in and I feel like there's so many people who
Speaker 2: are listening and watching where social anxiety is at a
Speaker 2: point where it cripples them, It stops them from walking
Speaker 2: into rooms. Starting that conversation, what was what were you
Speaker 2: saying to yourself? What were you working on in order
Speaker 2: to move through some of those uncomfortable experiences.
Speaker 1: Case by case. You know, my friend was having a
Speaker 1: function the other night, beautiful function, a total reason to celebrate,
Speaker 1: and I nearly was like, I can't go. There wasn't
Speaker 1: any valid reason for me to not go. In my
Speaker 1: mind from a cerebral kind of oh that makes sense.
Speaker 1: None of it made sense. And then there are times
Speaker 1: when you know I'm skipping out the door. It just depends,
Speaker 1: I mean for me in terms of like breaking it
Speaker 1: up into two things, because you make you made some
Speaker 1: good points, like in terms of like the social side
Speaker 1: of it. I try to be kind to myself. I
Speaker 1: try to allow myself the space to make a decision
Speaker 1: that's as pressure free as possible, and then more often
Speaker 1: than not, I find good, valid reasons to continue forward.
Speaker 1: I feel that if I apply too much pressure on myself,
Speaker 1: most of it's unreal, and then I'll end up just
Speaker 1: not going anyway, and then I'll feel bad because the
Speaker 1: unreal will evaporate and I realized that I made a
Speaker 1: decision that wasn't based in the real. So I try
Speaker 1: to I try to I know myself enough to get
Speaker 1: a heait of that and just be like, you don't
Speaker 1: have to do anything, don't go. And once I just
Speaker 1: tell myself that, I'm like, oh, well, there's a couple
Speaker 1: of good reasons to go, you know, and I start
Speaker 1: to bring myself forward on that. In terms of the
Speaker 1: work side of it and getting in the room. I
Speaker 1: don't want to tell you. I mean a few times
Speaker 1: when i've I know that I've had to step up
Speaker 1: and do something that's ultimately helped change the shape of
Speaker 1: my journey and therefore my family's journey or whatever. That's
Speaker 1: when you start getting into the intangible bit for me,
Speaker 1: into the sort of the magic of the moment and
Speaker 1: what makes performers, athletes, surgeons. I mean, I'm going lofty,
Speaker 1: but anybody, I mean, heroes, people do out of body things.
Speaker 1: It's nowhere near on the same level. And I'm not
Speaker 1: trying to put like getting in a room and pitching
Speaker 1: a bit of shit at the same thing, but it
Speaker 1: exists in the same space of like, I don't quite
Speaker 1: know why what's motivating this extra gear, but I'm using it,
Speaker 1: and I think true greatness comes from people who know
Speaker 1: how to access it more consciously than I do at
Speaker 1: this point in my life. You know, you're talking about
Speaker 1: you know, the Michael Jordan's of this world, who can,
Speaker 1: the Beyonces, the sword who are like I can. You know,
Speaker 1: they don't shy away from the occasion. They level up,
Speaker 1: they see it, they know what it is, they understand.
Speaker 1: And I'm just talking about the arts now. I respectfu
Speaker 1: to everybody else, like, because if I start, you know,
Speaker 1: going and apologizing for every other outlet or occupation or
Speaker 1: thing in life that's more important than the arts to
Speaker 1: everyone else, then I'm just going to end up in
Speaker 1: the like the future position, and this podcast is going
Speaker 1: to be over, so I'm just focusing.
Speaker 2: Based on your background.
Speaker 1: I know how it goes. I know how it goes.
Speaker 1: It's more important things in life than music and the arts.
Speaker 1: I get it, and I respect it, but for me,
Speaker 1: that's the world I'm in, so I'm just going to
Speaker 1: focus on that. So in the performing arts, you know,
Speaker 1: I watch I watch people all the time step up
Speaker 1: further than they have before, and I just think it's
Speaker 1: something in us that is there, and sometimes the occasion
Speaker 1: requires it, and sometimes you meet someone who has found
Speaker 1: a way to harness it. And that is when you
Speaker 1: start dealing with like the greats, like the people who
Speaker 1: just they see it, they manifest it, it happens, but
Speaker 1: then they recognize that it's happening, and then they recognize
Speaker 1: the feeling, and then they remember that feeling, and then
Speaker 1: they practice that feeling and then they get the ball
Speaker 1: in with point three seconds to go every time, and
Speaker 1: that's like, that's when you're dealing with just another level.
Speaker 1: I did not there, but I've had a few moments
Speaker 1: in my life when that gear is kicked in and
Speaker 1: I love it. I mean, you know, the job I'm
Speaker 1: in now I mean I nearly got on a plane
Speaker 1: and flew home because I just was like, I don't
Speaker 1: know where this is going, and I'm uhappy, I don't think.
Speaker 1: I don't feel like I can do this. And I
Speaker 1: had a big meeting the next day, and when the
Speaker 1: next day, I had a great meeting and it changed everything.
Speaker 1: So who knows, man, I mean, it just comes out
Speaker 1: of nowhere. But I'm more interested in the people who
Speaker 1: just somehow know how to like kick that shit into action.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because they exist, Yeah, absolutely, they exist. Yeah. There's
Speaker 2: a beautiful book called Flow. Don't know if you've ever
Speaker 2: come across it. I forget the author's name. It's like
Speaker 2: me Hi. I think it's a name. If I mess
Speaker 2: it up, everyone, please do not be mad at me.
Speaker 2: I think it's cheek sent me high. I think that's
Speaker 2: how it said, me hichick sent me high. The books
Speaker 2: called flow, And that's what you're describing, this flow state
Speaker 2: that people experience where you see freestylers, rappers, musicians, you know, athletes, artists,
Speaker 2: where time stops but it's really fast and no one
Speaker 2: knows what's happening. Like it almost feels like time slows
Speaker 2: down and speeds up at the same time, I've.
Speaker 1: Had a couple of conversations in that state, like on
Speaker 1: the record, like like interview situations where it's like there's
Speaker 1: been such a nice mood in the room, and I
Speaker 1: feel that it's such a strong like to and fro going
Speaker 1: on and the Chris and the answer and then the
Speaker 1: question of the answer and it's just been and I'm
Speaker 1: like wow, and then someone's like, Okay, time it's been
Speaker 1: going for like two hours. I'm like it was like that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, you must have done it so lovely. It's
Speaker 1: really cool when it happens like that too, because it's
Speaker 1: human experience for somebody else, so it feels really nice.
Speaker 1: I also, you know, my social anxiety. I think I
Speaker 1: think it's it's it's unique for everybody. I mean, I
Speaker 1: have no problem walking in a room and being around people,
Speaker 1: But there's a difference between being present and fitting in
Speaker 1: or playing a role that you think is going to
Speaker 1: serve a purpose for that environment or that party or whatever,
Speaker 1: and just being able to be comfortable in yourself. That's
Speaker 1: what I'm talking about. Like I'm not always and very
Speaker 1: often entirely comfortable. I just I just figured out how
Speaker 1: to maintain, but there's always something in me that's I
Speaker 1: felt that, like my skin's a little bit too tight,
Speaker 1: or my brain's not really focused on what someone's asking me.
Speaker 1: And I, yes, I guess that's what I'm that's my
Speaker 1: form of social anxiety.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think I find that most people at events,
Speaker 2: especially in the entertainment and the arts, feel that way.
Speaker 2: I don't know many people who don't feel.
Speaker 1: That way or well these that's good to hear, definitely.
Speaker 2: Yeah, whether it's at an award show or whether it's
Speaker 2: out of red carpet or whenever I speak to people
Speaker 2: behind the scenes, that's the number one emotion that people
Speaker 2: are experiencing, and everyone's feeling it in a different way.
Speaker 1: What do you think that is?
Speaker 2: I think it's because the way events are organized, they're
Speaker 2: not crafted for community and connection. Yeah, so the challenge
Speaker 2: is that the way it's been built is not set
Speaker 2: up for people to come in and feel. So I
Speaker 2: went to one place that was I went to can
Speaker 2: Lions last week. I'd never been to the Lines Festival before.
Speaker 2: It was my first time there Bindacan, and it was
Speaker 2: crafted for community, Like I felt like you could walk
Speaker 2: into any space you connect with people, you could hang
Speaker 2: out with, people, you bumped into, people walking in and
Speaker 2: out of stuff. No one had an ego where people
Speaker 2: were like, you know, on a high horse.
Speaker 1: Or maybe that's part of an evolutionary state. I mean,
Speaker 1: we were talking about seventy five years of that first.
Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying, And maybe we need to actually
Speaker 1: just start looking at every single micro experience rather than
Speaker 1: like we're all going to evolve, like something's gonna happen,
Speaker 1: We're all going to evolve. It's like maybe we are,
Speaker 1: and maybe it is just like right down to the
Speaker 1: smallest thing, like an event like that, we're being able
Speaker 1: to walk in there and for you to feel connected
Speaker 1: to people and like you came away with something that
Speaker 1: was meaningful, not just valuable. Maybe that's that's going to
Speaker 1: inspire people to do to do it in multiple different places.
Speaker 1: I mean I would like that. I've gotten bitter at
Speaker 1: just maintaining.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like when.
Speaker 1: You're younger, it's like, oh my gosh, everything risks on
Speaker 1: this night, and then after a while you're like, can
Speaker 1: we go?
Speaker 2: You know, that's exactly what it is. You're spot on,
Speaker 2: That's exactly what it is like when you first I
Speaker 2: remember that when I first moved to LA, I went
Speaker 2: somewhere it was like, oh my god, if I don't
Speaker 2: make this move right now at the end of my career,
Speaker 2: and then like years later you're like, actually, it didn't
Speaker 2: affect it.
Speaker 1: If someone asked a friend of mine who was working
Speaker 1: with at the time, someone in the industry was like,
Speaker 1: is that a friend of success when I first got
Speaker 1: to l because I wasn't in sixty five parties a
Speaker 1: night running around doing it everything, And then.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And my goal has become very clearly that
Speaker 2: my intention is always like, can I find one person
Speaker 2: tonight who I can bear my soul? You have one
Speaker 2: person that I can fully be myself, because then that
Speaker 2: that event, I've fully been myself.
Speaker 1: So how do you know who that person is? I
Speaker 1: know it can we changes, but is there a constant
Speaker 1: to that.
Speaker 2: You can get a sense pretty quick obviously, and like
Speaker 2: we're saying, it's respective to what you personally are interested in.
Speaker 2: So for me, I'm I'm hoping that I can have
Speaker 2: a conversation like I'm having with you today, which is meaningful,
Speaker 2: it's purposeful, it's vulnerable, it's it's open, it's thoughtful, it's
Speaker 2: about growth. It's about being better.
Speaker 1: But when when I walked in the house today and
Speaker 1: we met for the first time and we sort of
Speaker 1: have each other's gaze for sick and it was like,
Speaker 1: all right, cool, we've got this moment here, Like it's
Speaker 1: more than just like transactional, Like all right, if we're
Speaker 1: going to do this, let's do this and then's start
Speaker 1: and see where this relationship goes in the future. Right,
Speaker 1: it's not just gonna be like good to MILLI podcast next. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Like is that, like, is there a technique to how
Speaker 1: you do how you find people?
Speaker 2: I wouldn't say it's a technique. I think it's more
Speaker 2: of an intuition, Like I do believe it's energetic as
Speaker 2: opposed to like ask these three questions you like. I
Speaker 2: don't think I have it like a formula like that,
Speaker 2: But I feel like you can usually tell by someone's language,
Speaker 2: body language, and emotional languages to whether you're on the
Speaker 2: same frequency or vibration. I find over time, I've been
Speaker 2: able to sense that, and I've also realized where your
Speaker 2: ego wants to force it with someone because there's personal
Speaker 2: gain or.
Speaker 1: That's big self away.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can tell when it's like Oh, there actually
Speaker 2: isn't a frequency, but I'm pretending there is or hoping
Speaker 2: there is, or trying to manufacture it because I think
Speaker 2: this person can do something for me, or I'm useful
Speaker 2: to them, or I feel significant because I'm being useful
Speaker 2: to them. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think also realizing that you don't want to be
Speaker 1: that to someone, but also someone's trying to be that
Speaker 1: to you.
Speaker 2: Correct.
Speaker 1: It's really important for anybody going into any area of life,
Speaker 1: and it's something that I think people should try to
Speaker 1: develop that radar from a young age because it'll save
Speaker 1: you so much time and energy. Yeah. Yeah, And also
Speaker 1: it's fine to acknowledge that you're doing that to me
Speaker 1: and I'm doing that to you because we're in a trade.
Speaker 1: That's totally fine. Yes, great work, great things come out
Speaker 1: of that, sure. But friendship is different. Like I'm really
Speaker 1: realizing how important my friendships are and I'm and there
Speaker 1: are multiple types of friendships. There are people I love
Speaker 1: to just hang out with and sometimes some of them
Speaker 1: I like to talk industry with the music with, and
Speaker 1: they're not the people I'm going to call up and
Speaker 1: have a heart to heart with about someone else. And
Speaker 1: there are others that you know, I know I can
Speaker 1: call up when I'm at a low point or they can
Speaker 1: call me, and there is that. I think it's just
Speaker 1: understanding that, you know, we all serve a purpose and
Speaker 1: if you're in someone's life, you've got a purpose. Just
Speaker 1: understand try to understand what their purpose is. That's what
Speaker 1: being thoughtful with your thoughtfulness is to me. Like, maybe
Speaker 1: I'm not the person to pick the phone up and
Speaker 1: check on someone's well being because that's not the kind
Speaker 1: of friend I am to that person. But they have
Speaker 1: those friends. Doesn't mean I'm not their friend, correct.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, we have different relationships with different people in
Speaker 2: our life that that serve us in different ways, and
Speaker 2: we serve in different ways, and knowing how you do
Speaker 2: that for someone is is so important.
Speaker 1: It's really important. And yeah, that's that's a big self
Speaker 1: awareness lesson and I think you know, it took me
Speaker 1: a while to figure that out. I was always trying
Speaker 1: to like be all things to everyone thing. Yeah, for
Speaker 1: a lot of my life, trying to fix everything, be
Speaker 1: all things, be this, be that, be funny, be caring this,
Speaker 1: like sometimes just be funny or not just try.
Speaker 2: That's a great boy. I love that. Yeah, that's that's
Speaker 2: actually really powerful to think that, Like, I think you're
Speaker 2: so right. We want to be all of ourselves to everyone.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, because we're covering all the bases.
Speaker 2: Yeah, covering all the bases. Yeah, and we there's that
Speaker 2: subtle ego in like we want to be considered funny
Speaker 2: and this and smart and this.
Speaker 1: So how do you manage your ego in a situation
Speaker 1: like this where you where you? I mean, you said
Speaker 1: at the very beginning, you have the number one health
Speaker 1: podcast in the world. Congratulations by the way, Like that's
Speaker 1: that's a real thing to have a number one of anything,
Speaker 1: but to have a number one in an area we're
Speaker 1: adding so much value and support to people. But the
Speaker 1: very nature of a number one anything is really that's
Speaker 1: just like you know, Bourbon for the ego, right, It's
Speaker 1: like number one is like it's very nature is connected
Speaker 1: to an ego experience. How do you continue to build
Speaker 1: around success but manage what's your relationship like with your
Speaker 1: ego in this environment?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a I would say it's a constant conversation
Speaker 2: on a daily basis between my conscious self and my
Speaker 2: ego self. I think that it's something I have to
Speaker 2: be vigilant of on a daily basis because of the
Speaker 2: world we live in and the environment we're in. Just
Speaker 2: someone that I mentor messaged me this morning and he's
Speaker 2: kind of having a real moment in his career and
Speaker 2: things are going well, and he was saying the same
Speaker 2: thing to me, be goes Jah. I don't think this
Speaker 2: is healthy for me, Like I'm worried about my ego,
Speaker 2: And I was like, this is amazing the fact that
Speaker 2: you're even aware and you're conscious and you're because ninety
Speaker 2: nine percent of the time you have the success and
Speaker 2: then it falls apart and then you think about your ego.
Speaker 2: And so for me, there are a few things that
Speaker 2: I do. The first thing is that I always look
Speaker 2: at how I compare to the work I really want
Speaker 2: to do. So the impact I really want to make
Speaker 2: in the world is not just downloads or views or
Speaker 2: whatever else or numbers. It's actually I'm trying to create
Speaker 2: a journey for everyone that connects with my work, from
Speaker 2: entertainment through to education through to personal enlightenment in how
Speaker 2: they define that term, and to me, it's like I'm
Speaker 2: trying to create that journey by building steps that I
Speaker 2: know from the journey that I've been on, the journey
Speaker 2: that I'm still on, and the journey that I've learned
Speaker 2: from the great and trying to put those building blocks
Speaker 2: in place for people. And my goal is unless I'm
Speaker 2: helping people walk that journey, the number is is insignificant.
Speaker 1: But the beautiful thing is because by the way, I'm
Speaker 1: not anti ego, like eco serves an important rule great commisation.
Speaker 1: You know, there's ego and it, and those two things
Speaker 1: need to be managed in a way that with like
Speaker 1: I said, a sense of self awareness and understanding of
Speaker 1: what is going to press your buttons, both positive and negative.
Speaker 1: But what I'm interested in is, like, it's interesting because
Speaker 1: because you're building this thing internally, from within your own vision,
Speaker 1: your own what inspires you, It's come from this tiny
Speaker 1: little fire that you're building into this beautiful thing that
Speaker 1: helps people. But you can't help more people without your
Speaker 1: ego serving a purpose a role.
Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, And so I think engaging it and being
Speaker 2: aware of it the only two options you have, because
Speaker 2: I think that when you try and ignore that. There
Speaker 2: were probably even times in my life where I tried
Speaker 2: to suppress the desire to do and make an impact
Speaker 2: because you think it's ego not realizing that then it's
Speaker 2: just brewing and now you're envious of everyone else.
Speaker 1: So that's why the we're humility is so interesting to me, right,
Speaker 1: because we kick around humility all the time like it's
Speaker 1: a really important positive part of our makeup, and it is.
Speaker 1: It can be. There's a time to be humble, and
Speaker 1: there's no universally sort of positive humility. There's no universally
Speaker 1: negative ego complexities across both of them. But it's interesting,
Speaker 1: isn't it. Like you can find yourself If you deny
Speaker 1: your ability and what you love and your talent and
Speaker 1: your ambition too much, you find yourself in a false
Speaker 1: state of humility, and you can't help the people to help.
Speaker 1: So it's ultimately turning your back on what you should
Speaker 1: be doing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And to me, ego when it gets dangerous is
Speaker 2: when you feel better or worse than others. And so
Speaker 2: I feel like there's a difference between doing what you
Speaker 2: think you're meant to do and doing it well then
Speaker 2: thinking you do it better. Like I am friends with
Speaker 2: so many people in this space who do are who
Speaker 2: are number one in their fields, but and even in
Speaker 2: a similar field in a different way, Like, I know
Speaker 2: a phenomenal set of scientists in this space who are
Speaker 2: doing incredible health and wellness work and a number one
Speaker 2: in the way they do it. But it's like I
Speaker 2: have my own version and I have my own way
Speaker 2: and method, and that's what I'm excited and have an
Speaker 2: ego about. I guess is the idea that I'm doing
Speaker 2: what I'm doing, but it's not a It doesn't make
Speaker 2: me better than someone or worse than someone.
Speaker 1: And I think so interesting, isn't though, Because growing up,
Speaker 1: like in music, there is an innate competitiveness of wanting
Speaker 1: to be the best, and sports you won't want I
Speaker 1: won't find a coach that will look you in the
Speaker 1: eye and tell you that that attitude is going to
Speaker 1: get you to be the best in the world. Right,
Speaker 1: So it's so interesting how we relate to this thing
Speaker 1: that I think we know very little about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, which which is why I think some of the
Speaker 2: best athletes, like I know that Christiano Ronaldo, who's the
Speaker 2: biggest football and soccer star in the world for anyone,
Speaker 2: who I mean him and Messy.
Speaker 1: We just did a little rolling stones beetles, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: The world is divided. My TikTok feeds me Christiana, we're
Speaker 2: a complete human being. And now we're in the US,
Speaker 2: and so Messi. Everyone's excited because Messi is coming to
Speaker 2: man and he's awesome. And my point being that whenever
Speaker 2: he does an interview, I always see him say I
Speaker 2: have to think I'm the best in the world, like
Speaker 2: I have to think that way, is what he'll say.
Speaker 2: And I think that's really interesting language because he's not
Speaker 2: saying I am, or I definitely am, saying I have
Speaker 2: to think that way in order to perform at my best.
Speaker 1: So he's he's he's dividing it into a mentality versus
Speaker 1: a reality. Correct.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's beautifully said. Yeah, exactly. And I think that
Speaker 2: that's what's so fascinating that if you sat down with
Speaker 2: Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant, who I've had the pleasure
Speaker 2: of interviewing, or today Lebron, it's like, I'm sure they
Speaker 2: have to feel that way, but it's whether like if
Speaker 2: they were, you know, all things said and done behind
Speaker 2: closed doors. You know, I'm sure they have an opinion
Speaker 2: on stuff that you can say when you're retired too,
Speaker 2: that you couldn't say when you were.
Speaker 1: Playing are you a manifesto?
Speaker 2: I would honestly say I've been an accidental, unintentional manifesto.
Speaker 2: So I don't believe that I ever set out to say, Okay,
Speaker 2: I believe in manifestation. I know how it works, and
Speaker 2: I'm going to do it. I don't think I ever
Speaker 2: had that. I've just had things happen in my life
Speaker 2: where I can track back when I first visualized it
Speaker 2: in my mind and then it came to fruition. But
Speaker 2: I never intended for that to happen.
Speaker 1: And so when that happened, did you ever have the
Speaker 1: intention to try to kind of do it more or
Speaker 1: master it or anything else, or were you just like
Speaker 1: I love the curiosity that I like to make it happen.
Speaker 2: I love the curiosity and I love the magic of
Speaker 2: it because that also makes me realize that it's beyond me.
Speaker 2: And I like that humility of that.
Speaker 1: Okay, so ther of it is, that's cool.
Speaker 2: That surrender of it that I don't. I love the
Speaker 2: idea that it's happening, and it's happened in my life
Speaker 2: so subconsciously that it also makes me recognize that there
Speaker 2: is more than.
Speaker 1: Me to say, and I'm more like you than I am.
Speaker 1: Like some of the other people who I know, who
Speaker 1: you know, are continually searching for that feeling that they
Speaker 1: can and with some success.
Speaker 2: Again Oh yeah, yeah. I know people who I consider
Speaker 2: to manipulate material energy like they have that they have
Speaker 2: that ability, and I don't Ryan Reynolds.
Speaker 1: Ryan Reynolds is a master manifesto. I'm so sorry, but
Speaker 1: you cannot take Rixham and do that unless you know
Speaker 1: how to bend energy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, that's the point.
Speaker 1: Like I sell billion dollar telecom company.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that mint.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And I don't think there's a right or wrong again,
Speaker 2: like I don't think someone who focuses on manifesting in
Speaker 2: there in the sense that the way it's been packaged
Speaker 2: or marketed is a bad thing. It's just not the
Speaker 2: way I.
Speaker 1: Can I ask you another question, cool, I ask you
Speaker 1: a question.
Speaker 2: This is a real conversation.
Speaker 1: I want to I want to talk to you about ambition,
Speaker 1: Like what your relationship is with your ambition, because you
Speaker 1: have a big you have You've already built something massive
Speaker 1: and you want to continue to reach more people. So
Speaker 1: how do you manage your ambition into something that is
Speaker 1: balanced with your life.
Speaker 2: I think it's evolved over time. So I've always honestly
Speaker 2: said that when I first started, I was working sixteen
Speaker 2: to eighteen hour days and seven days a week, but
Speaker 2: I never missed meditating and that was always my grounding practice.
Speaker 2: I was like, I'm going to meditate and I'm going
Speaker 2: to work my socks off, because I kind of had
Speaker 2: that moment of or at least what I've heard when
Speaker 2: you were saying that about your kids. Like I remember
Speaker 2: the first time I felt the door open, and I
Speaker 2: was just like I never believe this door would ever open,
Speaker 2: Like I have to be so grateful and responsible for this.
Speaker 1: And that was to meditation.
Speaker 2: That was no, no, no, that was oh no. Spiritually
Speaker 2: that had happened. I mean like externally with building a platform.
Speaker 1: God, I got it, Like when you realize like, wow,
Speaker 1: I have a shot.
Speaker 2: I have an opportunity to do this in a like
Speaker 2: I was happy and content, and anyone who knows me
Speaker 2: the back then would verify this, like I was happy
Speaker 2: and content doing what I do today for the ten
Speaker 2: people that showed up every week for ten years, and
Speaker 2: I was so happy. I didn't feel like, oh there's
Speaker 2: not enough people or like oh my god, I'm not
Speaker 2: like I just felt grateful and happy that even ten
Speaker 2: people would show up, and I loved it. And then
Speaker 2: at one point I did feel I was like, I
Speaker 2: feel this message matters. The people that are coming are
Speaker 2: having great success from it. I think it should reach
Speaker 2: more people, so I should attempt to. And when I
Speaker 2: attempted and I had that first glimpse, then I was like, wow,
Speaker 2: I'm so grateful and I should be responsible for this,
Speaker 2: and I shouldn't take this. I should take this as
Speaker 2: a gift and I should give my heart and soul
Speaker 2: to it, not just live off this momentary you know success.
Speaker 2: So for me, that's to me, the graft was me
Speaker 2: expressing my gratitude back to the universe to say, I
Speaker 2: see that you've given literal me a shot, and I
Speaker 2: feel my only way of expressing my thanks and a
Speaker 2: preciation back to you for this gift is to show
Speaker 2: you that I'm willing to work.
Speaker 1: To make the most of it.
Speaker 2: Correct. So that was like a couple of years where
Speaker 2: I did that. As soon as I started doing that
Speaker 2: and things started to grow externally, I started to realize,
Speaker 2: all right, this is not sustainable, like on an energy level,
Speaker 2: and so then I cut back. So then I was like,
Speaker 2: I'm only going to work five days a week, so
Speaker 2: I took my weekends back. I was still working evenings.
Speaker 2: Now I'm at a point where I took my weekends
Speaker 2: and my evenings.
Speaker 1: Because because that to me is like, that's that's the
Speaker 1: crucial moment where perhaps some like maturity and some life
Speaker 1: and some distance between youthful ambition, the desire that I've
Speaker 1: got to go and take every opportunity I can versus
Speaker 1: where you were at that moment in your life really
Speaker 1: served you. Yes, because that's the moment when I think
Speaker 1: it can consume people and relationships, Yeah, get hurt and
Speaker 1: or get torched, and we chase something so far down
Speaker 1: the road that we forget where we wanted to go
Speaker 1: in the first place.
Speaker 2: Totally.
Speaker 1: So yeah, that's a really great point.
Speaker 2: And I think for me it.
Speaker 1: Was like that was a turning point for you, that mument.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And at the beginning, it was just like, all right,
Speaker 2: all that ass is this and my wife, like those
Speaker 2: are the only two things that mattered. I don't really
Speaker 2: have time for anything more than that. And now I'm
Speaker 2: at a point where working backwards, where now I only work,
Speaker 2: I have the privilege of only working nine am to
Speaker 2: six pm and don't work evenings all weekends, and now
Speaker 2: I can take care of my wife and my friends.
Speaker 2: And because you're in the era of no yeah, And
Speaker 2: that's and I think there was an era of complete yes.
Speaker 2: And there has to be and there's there's an it
Speaker 2: has to be. There has to be, and I don't
Speaker 2: want to lie about not like perfect balance.
Speaker 1: You can't get to know without figuring out like where
Speaker 1: your line is. And you can't figure that unless you
Speaker 1: push yourself. And that's what work is. That's what the
Speaker 1: working era is like, when you just grind, grind, grind, grind, grind, grind, grind,
Speaker 1: and and but yeah, I'm I'm a fan of balance.
Speaker 1: I was talking to someone about this the other day,
Speaker 1: about ambition, because I have friends of mine who are
Speaker 1: never going to start and I love them for that,
Speaker 1: and they just to them, to them, it's all out there,
Speaker 1: and why would they ever not grab every opportunity or
Speaker 1: explore the next thing. And no number is too big
Speaker 1: and no opportunity is too far away. And I love
Speaker 1: it and I've definitely been that in my own way.
Speaker 1: But I'm reaching a point in my life which isn't
Speaker 1: the same, I'm going to turn down opportunities or I'm wanting.
Speaker 1: I'm not whining that I'm not in a semi retirement mode.
Speaker 1: I want to do my best work over the next
Speaker 1: ten years, but I want to do it in a
Speaker 1: way that is joyful and to your point, really make
Speaker 1: gratitude like the number one driving force. I think to
Speaker 1: be truly grateful, you need to allow yourself space to
Speaker 1: be grateful. I think we kick the word gratitude around
Speaker 1: a lot. I know I've been definitely the kind of
Speaker 1: person who's like, done one hundred things in a day
Speaker 1: and then when I've had two minutes the end of
Speaker 1: the day gone, I'm really grateful, thank you so much
Speaker 1: for And it's like it's not a checklist item, Like
Speaker 1: you've got to feel it. And I think to do that,
Speaker 1: and I guess that's what meditation. I've never been able
Speaker 1: to find the space to meditate and calm my mind
Speaker 1: downe enough. I know I will, I just can't force it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you haven't naturally zen energy there.
Speaker 1: That's cool.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like I would have thought you were a meditator,
Speaker 2: which is quite nice. Yeah, which is yeah, you have
Speaker 2: that the I always said, like I mean, and Kobe
Speaker 2: Bryant did meditate, but he was the most like he
Speaker 2: had the most gravity around him of any person I've
Speaker 2: ever met, Like he was just like time, like things
Speaker 2: stood still when he spoke, and there was that. But
Speaker 2: he did meditate. But I feel like you have a
Speaker 2: real like there's a there's a piece around you, even
Speaker 2: though it's not you know, if it's not from that
Speaker 2: which is really beautiful and then of hard piece, yeah,
Speaker 2: hard earned piece. Yeah, but I think it's true. Like
Speaker 2: I think also, you know, it's what we're saying about
Speaker 2: the yes and no, there's also a different time in
Speaker 2: life for sometimes it's scale, sometimes it's speed, Sometimes it's strategies.
Speaker 2: Sometimes it's sincerity, sometimes it's you know, like it's I
Speaker 2: think what you realize is that if you just go
Speaker 2: speed speed speeds like that doesn't actually make any sense.
Speaker 1: Well, you missed your opportunities more than you actually grab them.
Speaker 1: I think.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you think about like being a Formula one racer,
Speaker 2: it's not speed at every turn that helps them master
Speaker 2: the track. Speed's a massive part of it, but.
Speaker 1: Only when you need to go fast.
Speaker 2: Only when you need to go fast, like round the band.
Speaker 2: If you just go fast because you're like, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: I just got to beat the other guy. You could
Speaker 2: potentially turn over and throw the you know, the race.
Speaker 1: That's why I love boxing so much. Like I've just
Speaker 1: started to like like do boxing training and stuff. It's
Speaker 1: my wife that's the most fun. It's the greatest exercise
Speaker 1: of it. And I've struggled with exercise. My whole life
Speaker 1: fits and starts like everybody else. No pun, well pun
Speaker 1: very much intended, but yeah, this is a whole other level.
Speaker 1: I love it, right, And the reason I love it
Speaker 1: is because, like my mom has dementia, and she's in
Speaker 1: the lot of stages of dementia I feel, and it's
Speaker 1: it's it's been really tough to witness, but I've also
Speaker 1: watched her sort of want to hold onto memories and
Speaker 1: the whole cognitive awareness thing has become very present for me.
Speaker 1: And what I love about boxing is that it's really
Speaker 1: it's it's one hundred percent mind and body, and it's
Speaker 1: about strategy and it's about people just think you just
Speaker 1: bash stuff. It's so not the most tiring thing I
Speaker 1: do when I'm working out. Boxing is the inside work.
Speaker 1: I'm not actually punching anything I'm just trying to push
Speaker 1: this guy off, Like that's the most exhausting thing out
Speaker 1: of any of it, Like that punching the mets is
Speaker 1: like just rhythm. That's the driving fast correct.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's what I mean. I think we just
Speaker 2: live in one mode of like speed or slow. We
Speaker 2: think we think those are the only two things to
Speaker 2: play with. Yeah, and when you box or if you
Speaker 2: drive a car or whatever, maybe you're still going, oh wait,
Speaker 2: there's there's so many other dials to play with here. Yeah,
Speaker 2: So I think I'm trying to you know, I've I've
Speaker 2: realized that, and I also realized that it's the same
Speaker 2: as a hike, Like getting up the hill is different
Speaker 2: to staying at the top and getting down again and
Speaker 2: going deep into the valley. Like, yeah, it requires a
Speaker 2: different skill set. And so I try, and you know,
Speaker 2: I try and live a very disciplined life health wise
Speaker 2: in order to be able to be high performing. And
Speaker 2: I value all of that, like the high performance world,
Speaker 2: like I value all the time.
Speaker 1: You have cheat days, though, do your life have a
Speaker 1: chance to slip out of routine always?
Speaker 2: I mean you have to, Like this morning was one
Speaker 2: of those morning.
Speaker 1: I said, well, you just got back off tour for
Speaker 1: a start, so you're all over the show.
Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, I wasn't. That's the thing I allow myself,
Speaker 2: like small windows and then I go back. But like
Speaker 2: this week, I haven't missed a single workout and this morning,
Speaker 2: last night I told I told my friends that I
Speaker 2: was going to work out with today. I go, guys,
Speaker 2: I'm sleeping in tomorrow and burnt, I'm not going to
Speaker 2: be that. I'm tired. So I woke up an hour
Speaker 2: and a half later then I usually wake up today
Speaker 2: and it was the best thing I ever did, and
Speaker 2: I loved it. Do you sleep well I sleep? Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's a big thing for me. I actually read that's
Speaker 2: been something you've had to work through, right, Like.
Speaker 1: Dude, I'm not a good sleeper and I but you
Speaker 1: know what's crazy. And I was telling a friend of
Speaker 1: mine who's in a band about this this morning because
Speaker 1: she was like, I'm just trying to kind of come
Speaker 1: down off tour. And I said, listen, man, let me
Speaker 1: give you a bit of advice. And I'm never's going
Speaker 1: to work for you, but I'm telling you, like I
Speaker 1: read somewhere something ages ago where Rick Ruben said that
Speaker 1: he goes out every morning when he wakes up and
Speaker 1: exposes himself to natural light. Yes, first thing he does
Speaker 1: is expose himself to natural light. And then I someone
Speaker 1: else said it, and someone else said it, and I
Speaker 1: was like, all right, this is like too many things
Speaker 1: pointing in this direction. So and I haven't had a
Speaker 1: good night sleep in a long time, and so I
Speaker 1: started going outside and it was so strange. It was
Speaker 1: such an alien experience for me to stand out in
Speaker 1: my yard at like six thirty in the morning, like
Speaker 1: in my boxer shorts, like like, I feel like a weirdo.
Speaker 1: This is really weird. And then the second day we
Speaker 1: felt less weird, and the third day felt less weird,
Speaker 1: and I started putting shorts on because I was like,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm going to enjoy this. And I have
Speaker 1: been sleeping like like I wake up and my head
Speaker 1: is just like heavy on the pillow and I'm just rested.
Speaker 1: Like that works.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: That's circadian rhythms thing. Yes, yeah, I mean yeah, it's crazy,
Speaker 1: like yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know they're all ancient practices, though I know
Speaker 2: you do yoga too, And so the ancient yoga arsen
Speaker 2: is called the suria Namashkar. So what that means is
Speaker 2: sun salutations. And so the ancient practice was the first
Speaker 2: thing you do in the morning is you salute the sun, right,
Speaker 2: which was that bathing and gazing and paying respects to
Speaker 2: the sun. Yeah, and that was what was happening, Like
Speaker 2: your circadian rhythm was kicking off. Yeah, now you're on
Speaker 2: that and we sit.
Speaker 1: There and we read that and we think, oh, it's
Speaker 1: it's only a worship to the sun. It's all worship based.
Speaker 1: But actually it can be worship based and it can
Speaker 1: also be lifestyle related exactly. They were figuring out how
Speaker 1: to get a good night's sleep exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they were figuring out how to get vitality and
Speaker 2: energy as well. And that's what they were paying gratitude
Speaker 2: to the sun for. And your day started with gratitude,
Speaker 2: but for everything, not just for being the sun, but
Speaker 2: for the light, the heat, the warmth, I mean, for
Speaker 2: everything that it provides. Right.
Speaker 1: So we have all this literature and all these opportunities,
Speaker 1: like even this conversation to be able to just dive
Speaker 1: into all of this, and there'll be the people who
Speaker 1: roll their eyes and they're probably not listening or watching,
Speaker 1: and they'll be the people who are open and absorbing
Speaker 1: and ready to sort of try and make positive changes
Speaker 1: and help others further down the line. But where do
Speaker 1: you think we're going wrong? Like if the ancient species
Speaker 1: were saluting this, increasing their ability to be able to
Speaker 1: manifest good things, understood the power of gratitude, understood the
Speaker 1: power of rest, understood what they needed in order to
Speaker 1: maintain that. This is thousands of years ago. Why do
Speaker 1: you think we seem to be getting either further away
Speaker 1: from that or trying to get back to that, but
Speaker 1: we haven't actually gone on from that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's a it's a big question. And
Speaker 2: one place I really experienced it beautifully was when I
Speaker 2: was in Hawaii and every morning which.
Speaker 1: Island we were on, the big Island in Kawai is like.
Speaker 2: I've heard I need to go.
Speaker 1: To Ever ever been to a place where the energy,
Speaker 1: the lay lines and the oxygen coming up from the ocean. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is amazing.
Speaker 2: I need to go next year, and you'll have to
Speaker 2: give me all the recommendations.
Speaker 1: I've got no recommended. It's not the kind of place
Speaker 1: the beautiful thing is. It's just pure local, Like it's
Speaker 1: not like go here, go here, just rent, just get
Speaker 1: a really awesome little airbing b near the ocean. That's
Speaker 1: my recommendation, and just barefooted to the coffee store every day.
Speaker 1: I love it anyway, No, no, no, no.
Speaker 2: And so I remember in Hawaii, we'd get like a
Speaker 2: kayak every morning. One of their forget the official name
Speaker 2: of this big kayak, they have a name for it,
Speaker 2: jumped in. We'd go out. They'd pay their respects to
Speaker 2: the sun. They had their own offerings, which I loved
Speaker 2: learning about dead offer it to the water.
Speaker 1: Like.
Speaker 2: So, what I find that where we've gone wrong is
Speaker 2: that we've unlearned and reconditioned to a new way of
Speaker 2: working so hard and so strong and for so long
Speaker 2: that undoing that and resetting our habits to be healthy
Speaker 2: for us is the biggest challenge. So discipline is ninety
Speaker 2: nine percent of the challenge. And I think the problem
Speaker 2: is that because if you think about school, which was
Speaker 2: the only thing that had the opportunity to discipline us,
Speaker 2: and parenting, those are probably the only two things that you.
Speaker 1: Have earlier introduction to it.
Speaker 2: Your introduction to it as school discipline, you always knew
Speaker 2: what you were going to do, You always knew what
Speaker 2: the next grade was, You knew what the next class was,
Speaker 2: it was all mapped out for you. You never actually
Speaker 2: had to discipline yourself. And so when runs out at
Speaker 2: age eighteen or twenty one, whenever you finish school, you
Speaker 2: now are left to your own devices to figure out discipline. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and you've never actually been taught how to build a habit,
Speaker 2: how to break a habit, how to grow discipline, how
Speaker 2: to end discipline, right, you just and that's really what's missing. Like,
Speaker 2: my wife has single handedly coached me to better eating
Speaker 2: habits than anyone ever has in my life. And I
Speaker 2: had to live with her every single day, you know,
Speaker 2: for the past seven years for her to do that
Speaker 2: for me, And I'm like, well, if I didn't live
Speaker 2: with her, I don't think I would be able to
Speaker 2: do these health changes, Like to me eating pizza burgers,
Speaker 2: you know, a sprite or a seven up like that
Speaker 2: was my like yeah, every other day.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And then all of a sudden, I married my wife
Speaker 2: and she's just like you know, sugar, yeah, and you
Speaker 2: know like and I'm like, well, wait a minute. It
Speaker 2: took that much coaching and guidance and steer, So I
Speaker 2: don't think anyone's at fault. I think it's more that
Speaker 2: society set us up to not know how to The
Speaker 2: biggest skill you can learn is how to build a
Speaker 2: habit and how to break a habit.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, because because one of the best things that
Speaker 1: were cap of doing what we tend to use against
Speaker 1: ourselves as the ability to absorb and translate absolutely, and
Speaker 1: it's like, all right, if you can manipulate that, if
Speaker 1: you know how to put things in because we're really
Speaker 1: complex but also quite simple totally. Everything's a routine, right,
Speaker 1: everything's a pattern. It takes one person to do something cool,
Speaker 1: and we're quite a sink. We live in a singularity
Speaker 1: pretty quickly. It's just like you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: it's just like, oh, that's cool, let's all do that.
Speaker 1: Yeah right, we all do it. Yeah, And so yeah,
Speaker 1: it's interesting, isn't it. Like I think you're right, we
Speaker 1: allow ourselves and to your point about discipline, we need
Speaker 1: to have the confidence in our own abilities and in
Speaker 1: our own determination to be disciplined enough to do what's
Speaker 1: right for ourselves.
Speaker 2: Yeah right, yeah.
Speaker 1: Because otherwise I think we are susceptible to the shiny lights.
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course. And I think that discipline comes ultimately
Speaker 2: through going what is truly valuable to me. It goes
Speaker 2: back to what you were saying that that singularity of
Speaker 2: not having this fragmented approach to I want to be
Speaker 2: this and I want to be this for that person.
Speaker 2: I want to do that. You know, it's it's well
Speaker 2: what do I what do I care about? You used
Speaker 2: to overwork too, right, Like that was a big, big
Speaker 2: thing for you. Big Did it lead to did you
Speaker 2: ever get to that brink of burnout and pain?
Speaker 1: And that's what Yes, absolutely, man, I had physical pain
Speaker 1: for like five years, chronic pain. Like I wouldn't say
Speaker 1: it was chronic, it was a consistent there were consistent
Speaker 1: pains were in the body, arm, finger, neck, lower back, hip, Wow.
Speaker 1: A lot, yeah, a lot of pressure points and a
Speaker 1: lot of it really was well, there's a couple of
Speaker 1: things going on there. There was some there was some
Speaker 1: some stuff I had to process from one side of
Speaker 1: the brain to the other that I hadn't done, so
Speaker 1: it was stuck in my body. So once I actually
Speaker 1: started to work that through in therapy and you did
Speaker 1: that all through therapy, that h yeah, yeah, one yeah.
Speaker 1: My guy put me to sleep once he basically broke
Speaker 1: it down for me, I was like for twenty minutes,
Speaker 1: woke up, and three weeks later things started to dissipate.
Speaker 1: But also I was I was absorbing. I was absorbing
Speaker 1: a lot into my body through the of the work
Speaker 1: and the stress and over work, because I didn't have
Speaker 1: anywhere else to put it, and so my body was
Speaker 1: trying to protect me. It was like, well, we'll store it.
Speaker 1: But after a while that body gets filled up and
Speaker 1: then it starts to ache and hurt, and the pain
Speaker 1: starts to happen. And I really genuinely thought, I'm just
Speaker 1: going to live with these aches. This will be it
Speaker 1: for the rest of my life. Right, as long as
Speaker 1: it doesn't kill me, I can live with it. Why
Speaker 1: would you want to live with pain? So I'm so
Speaker 1: glad that I was able to kind of start to
Speaker 1: unlock that's a verbal release.
Speaker 2: All the therapy you did was traditional therapy or there
Speaker 2: It was.
Speaker 1: More even just the concept that actually in my mind,
Speaker 1: in my brain, I have been storing it in an
Speaker 1: area where my brain is telling me to put it
Speaker 1: all in here, And what I need to do is
Speaker 1: to create space in here to put it somewhere, which
Speaker 1: has infinitely more ability to be able to process and
Speaker 1: distribute and remove and to release. So I needed to
Speaker 1: get it over there. And as simplistic as that sounds,
Speaker 1: it just worked for me. I mean, it was a
Speaker 1: concept and perhaps it's rooted in truth, and perhaps it's
Speaker 1: not that. I'm sure there'd be people who are saying
Speaker 1: we're talking about other people who'd be like, ah, that's
Speaker 1: exactly right. But you know, the way that it was
Speaker 1: it was it was explained to me, was that I
Speaker 1: had been storing it in my brain because I didn't
Speaker 1: have the ability to be able to deal with it emotionally,
Speaker 1: and so I didn't want to. And so once I
Speaker 1: figured out that I didn't have anything to be afraid of,
Speaker 1: just talking through, get it out, release it, let it go,
Speaker 1: it started to transfer and the pain started to disappear.
Speaker 2: That's the first time I've heard about that therapy. That's cool.
Speaker 1: But I was working through it like working around the clock,
Speaker 1: because again, it's a great distraction, isn't it. You know,
Speaker 1: getting up and going to work is a great way
Speaker 1: to spend your time avoiding things that you don't really
Speaker 1: want to have to deal with, and it's also more productive.
Speaker 1: So the harder you work, the more you achieve. The
Speaker 1: more you achieve, the more you tell yourselff you're okay,
Speaker 1: the more you tell you stuff you're okay, not dealing
Speaker 1: with absolutely, So it's like, okay, you know, and then.
Speaker 2: The opposite is also true, which is why back to
Speaker 2: your argument of balance, Like the opposite also true where
Speaker 2: you if you're too idle and there's no direction and
Speaker 2: there's no pursuit and there's no work.
Speaker 1: And for sure, there's an infinite amount of ways to
Speaker 1: do it. I'm just that's how I did it. And
Speaker 1: you know, there's a difference between working hard and working
Speaker 1: and working hard right, Like for me, it's like I
Speaker 1: love to work and I love to work hard, but
Speaker 1: I don't have to work hard to be working well, right,
Speaker 1: I can do it in a way that is like
Speaker 1: you know, efficient and good for my balance. Becuse me
Speaker 1: good for my balance. My decision making got better, my
Speaker 1: ability to delegate got better. I became less stressed out
Speaker 1: about the things that I didn't have any reason and
Speaker 1: or right to be stressed out about. I stopped feeling
Speaker 1: I needed to respond to every single email and every
Speaker 1: single thing, and I started to trust the process. And
Speaker 1: I don't know, you have to ask my colleagues, but
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm happier and better at what I do.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I'm a big believer in just because you
Speaker 1: put in the hours and doesn't mean you're actually getting
Speaker 1: the most out of it.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Absolutely, You've sat with so many of the you know,
Speaker 2: most iconic eyes of our time and this generation, and
Speaker 2: you know you're a brilliant interviewer. You ask question questions,
Speaker 2: you listen so effectively, like it's fun to watch, like
Speaker 2: genuinely fun to watch. Who do you feel was like
Speaker 2: wise beyond their years or like an old soul, but
Speaker 2: because most of them are young, like a lot of
Speaker 2: a lot of them are very young. Who did you
Speaker 2: find was kind of like?
Speaker 1: You know, I find the conversations that leave me most
Speaker 1: inspired and feeling like something in my life has changed
Speaker 1: and I've learned something new. Tend to come from the
Speaker 1: people who reached a point in their life where they're
Speaker 1: not trying to sell something anymore and they don't have
Speaker 1: to do this. It's there's some value in the conversation
Speaker 1: and perhaps they're looking for learning themselves. The truth is,
Speaker 1: more often than not, I find elements of that in
Speaker 1: everybody because I'm not trying to squeeze juice out of
Speaker 1: the lemon. I'm genuinely not trying to sell anything at
Speaker 1: this point in my life. I love music, so it's
Speaker 1: easy for me to talk about it and to say
Speaker 1: it's great and to back and forth about it. But
Speaker 1: I don't feel any need and I don't feel there's
Speaker 1: any requirement for me at this point in my life
Speaker 1: to try to sell anything when I go into the
Speaker 1: conversation and I don't I was gonna ask you a
Speaker 1: question because no one immediately sprang to mind, because I
Speaker 1: think I'm not existing in a hierarchy anymore.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's beautiful answer.
Speaker 1: I'm not thinking like this person surprised me, or this
Speaker 1: person was not charming, or this person was wise beyond
Speaker 1: the years. If you'd ask me that five years ago,
Speaker 1: I could have given you an answer like that.
Speaker 2: That's a beautiful answer. I love that.
Speaker 1: But I'm trying to go into every conversation, whether it's
Speaker 1: Little Yachty or Neil Young or Billie Eilish or you
Speaker 1: know whatever. I'm just trying to go into a conversation
Speaker 1: from a position just like us, of what is the
Speaker 1: most interesting and human experience that I can have, and
Speaker 1: I remove as much of the cell as I can,
Speaker 1: and I try to get into a place with people
Speaker 1: where like I don't really have questions anymore, and I
Speaker 1: don't really go in with a high with a framework anymore.
Speaker 1: I just try to feel the music, retain how it
Speaker 1: makes me feel, and just get to that as much
Speaker 1: of that feeling as I can in the conversation. And
Speaker 1: so everyone is surprising and everyone catches me off guard
Speaker 1: with their observations because I'm not going in with any
Speaker 1: prior observations or any kind of premeditated framework. I'm not
Speaker 1: coming and going I think I know what you'll like.
Speaker 1: And I will say that the one only time I've
Speaker 1: ever had a proper long form conversation with Justin Bieber change.
Speaker 1: That's what changed it for me, because I thought I
Speaker 1: was going to get a great conversation focused on an
Speaker 1: album that served the purpose that the label and the
Speaker 1: management and the artist wanted it to serve, and serve
Speaker 1: the purpose that Apple Music wanted it to serve, and
Speaker 1: I would get some thing out of it too, And
Speaker 1: that conversation became something very different, very quickly, and I
Speaker 1: realized that he wasn't interested really in selling anything either
Speaker 1: on that day. And that was the moment that I
Speaker 1: learned how to listen and stopped trying to control the
Speaker 1: narrative and gave myself the space to go with it
Speaker 1: and not panic. It's just a moment. It's just people. Yeah,
Speaker 1: stay present, listen, observe, and try and figure it out.
Speaker 1: So from that point forward, everybody that I've spoken to,
Speaker 1: really I get there with everyone in some way, shape
Speaker 1: or for Yeah, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2: Makes so much sense, it makes beyond sense.
Speaker 1: I love it. Every time i'd have a conversation with
Speaker 1: anyone before that, I would come in with so many
Speaker 1: different metrics of you know, questions and orders and this
Speaker 1: and that and expectations and whatnot. And you know, if
Speaker 1: you ever get a chance to sit, if you haven't
Speaker 1: already opposite Neil Young, you cannot go into it with that.
Speaker 1: He has no interest. It's like this is all that matters.
Speaker 1: And if you think you're going to be able to
Speaker 1: sort of carve out some shape with him, then he's
Speaker 1: just gonna be like, look, man, like, it's not what
Speaker 1: I'm here for. I'm not interested in it. So I
Speaker 1: really like this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, I love that. Thank you for saying that.
Speaker 1: I don't know what to do with the old method anymore.
Speaker 1: I used to have one. I just don't know what
Speaker 1: to do with it. Yeah, and even now and then
Speaker 1: I form myself falling in. I found myself falling into
Speaker 1: it because I'm worried and I can't stick to it.
Speaker 1: Everything you need to know is in the answer, right,
Speaker 1: every question you need.
Speaker 2: You have a structure when you're untrained, and then when
Speaker 2: you're trained, it's spontaneous. Spontaneous.
Speaker 1: It's like I just wasn't listening, Jay, I was just
Speaker 1: going in and trying to figure it all out before
Speaker 1: it even happened, which is very in line with who
Speaker 1: I was and who I've been.
Speaker 2: Trained too, I think sometimes right, yeah.
Speaker 1: I'm just terrified. I mean a very anxious person. I
Speaker 1: got an idea. You know, my therapist always says, you know,
Speaker 1: anxiety is based on not knowing the outcome, right, You're
Speaker 1: scared of what the outcome is going to be, and
Speaker 1: so you know, I need to prepare for every outcome.
Speaker 1: And at the end of the day, what I really
Speaker 1: need to do is just start and listen and it
Speaker 1: will be what it will be.
Speaker 2: Then this has been such a special, honest urban conversation.
Speaker 2: I've loved every bit of it, and saying we end
Speaker 2: every on purpose interview with a fast five. So these
Speaker 2: are questions we do ask everyone, okay, and every question
Speaker 2: has to be answered with one word to one sentence maximum. Okay,
Speaker 2: so it's short answers. So then load these your fast five.
Speaker 1: The first can they change every time?
Speaker 2: No? Okay, they stay. They four out of five stay
Speaker 2: exactly the same.
Speaker 1: Okay, hit me. Okay.
Speaker 2: So the first question, which we've asked everyone has ever
Speaker 2: been in the show, is what is the best advice
Speaker 2: you've ever heard or received?
Speaker 1: Be yourself because everyone else has taken nice.
Speaker 2: Second question, what is the worst advice you've ever heard
Speaker 2: or received?
Speaker 1: Eat that it's not that hot?
Speaker 2: All right?
Speaker 1: Question Number ones at me hot ones, call me. My
Speaker 1: kids won't ever respit me until I'm on that show.
Speaker 2: I love that question Number three, what is the one
Speaker 2: thing that if you'd want your children to remember every day?
Speaker 2: What would it be?
Speaker 1: You are loved? And you can love love.
Speaker 2: That question of before, what's something you're trying to unlearn
Speaker 2: right now?
Speaker 1: That I don't have to wash my hands every time
Speaker 1: I touch a surface and I don't have to check
Speaker 1: the taps. I'm always trying to unlearn my OCD compulsions.
Speaker 2: How does that affect life?
Speaker 1: Is that it's because being my life for so long
Speaker 1: that I think the most frustrating thing is I'm just
Speaker 1: I'm used to it. That's what frustrates me the most.
Speaker 1: If I ever stop and take a step back and
Speaker 1: realize and actually try to have it step back for
Speaker 1: myself and realize what I'm doing or what it must
Speaker 1: look like, not that I'm ashamed of it or that
Speaker 1: I worry about what the people think of it, just
Speaker 1: for my own sense of awareness. I get very frustrated
Speaker 1: and really try to tell myself, like, if you don't,
Speaker 1: I don't do this routine. The world is not going
Speaker 1: to end. And I have varying degrees of success. That's hard,
Speaker 1: but I'm always trying to unlearn it.
Speaker 2: Fifth and final question that we ask every guest on
Speaker 2: the show. If you could create one law that everyone
Speaker 2: in the world had to follow, what would it be?
Speaker 1: That we would allow ourselves the privilege of listening to
Speaker 1: each other before we act, that we would do our
Speaker 1: best to understand there are many points of view, and
Speaker 1: that level of understanding, and ultimately that knowledge would allow
Speaker 1: us to come together to fix things and not keep
Speaker 1: breaking things.
Speaker 2: So needed Zaying low everyone, if you've been listening or watching,
Speaker 2: wherever you are, whether you're walking your dog, whether you're cooking, driving,
Speaker 2: whether you're at home, whether you're at work, wherever you are,
Speaker 2: thank you so much for listening and tuning in. I
Speaker 2: hope that you'll tag me and Zaying with the things
Speaker 2: that you love, the things you're going to talk about
Speaker 2: this week because of this podcast, the things you're going
Speaker 2: to share with your friends and your family that resonated
Speaker 2: strongly with you. Please tag us both on Twitter, on Instagram,
Speaker 2: on TikTok, on any platform you use, sharing your favorite clips.
Speaker 2: I love seeing what connects with you all, and I
Speaker 2: hope this conversation is connected with you all as it
Speaker 2: has with me. So thank you for listening and saying.
Speaker 2: Thank you for your generous time and energy and presence.
Speaker 2: And I'm really grateful that we got to listen and
Speaker 2: connect with each other today. So thank you so much.
Speaker 1: It's the same joy, Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2: If you love this episode, you'll enjoy my conversation with
Speaker 2: Megan Trainer on breaking generational trauma and how to be
Speaker 2: confident from the inside out. My therapist told me stand
Speaker 2: in the mirror naked for five minutes. It was already
Speaker 2: tough for me to love my body, but after the
Speaker 2: C section scarf with all the stretch marks.
Speaker 1: Now I'm looking at myself like I've been hacked.
Speaker 2: But day three, when I did it, I was like,
Speaker 2: you know what, her thighs are?
Speaker 1: Cute?
Speaker 2: Okay, this is something that I've been waiting for and
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