1 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: Hey I do for two it's your celebrity mentor Kelly 2 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: ben smone And today I'm going to basically open up 3 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 1: and have my own therapy session on air. 4 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 2: Scary. 5 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: Yes, hopefully I can gain something out of this for 6 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:34,840 Speaker 1: all of us. Today. I'm joined today by my great friend, 7 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 1: doctor Hillary Goldher. 8 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 2: She's a psychologist who does. 9 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:42,159 Speaker 1: Extensive work in the area of relationships, helping couples as 10 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: well as individuals in all areas of life before marriage, 11 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: during marriage, separated divorce, and high conflict divorce. Welcome, doctor 12 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: Hillary Hiver. Oh, hi, Hi, So I have some questions 13 00:00:59,160 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 1: for you. 14 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 3: I'm here for it. 15 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 1: I want to give you a little background of like 16 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 1: where I you know, how I got to where I 17 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: am today. So I got divorced in two thousand and 18 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: seven and mediator I took care of everything, got him 19 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:24,399 Speaker 1: a new girlfriend, locked him up, just took everything, like 20 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: in control so my kids. 21 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:27,400 Speaker 2: Would be happy, he'd be happy. 22 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 1: And when on a television show, thought that I was 23 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 1: going to be, you know, feeling free and you know, 24 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 1: able to like nowdate people who you know, really cared 25 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:44,399 Speaker 1: about me and wanted to be with me, And that 26 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:46,679 Speaker 1: didn't work out because it was just like all of 27 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 1: these like entertainment kind of poser kind of people, which 28 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 1: was super disappointing. And then, you know, day try to 29 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 1: date some people that were on entertainment because I was like, Okay, 30 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 1: he's entertainment, I'm entertainment. Let's figure this out. That did 31 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 1: not work out, and then retired from the show and started, 32 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 1: you know, working on my own writing books and working 33 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 1: with in the jewelry and partnership space with collaborations, which 34 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: was so much fun, but I was laser focused on 35 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 1: making money, providing for my kids and making sure they 36 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 1: were safe cut too. 37 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 2: I am now still single. 38 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 1: I was supposed to get married two years ago, found 39 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 1: out that the guy wasn't going to sign my prenup, 40 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 1: and just really found out that he wasn't who he 41 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: said he was. 42 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 2: And now I'm. 43 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 1: You know, out there dating. I met a really really 44 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:48,679 Speaker 1: nice guy last year. We had a you know, such 45 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: a great relationship, and then I was going to go 46 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 1: on a show, and I just was afraid that he wasn't. 47 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 1: I didn't know what he wanted to do, but it 48 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 1: didn't seem like he was making definitive moves forward. I mean, 49 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: we were together, we were having a great time. We 50 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 1: were having fun, the kids are having a great time. 51 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 1: Everyone is having a great time. But that's not a relationship. 52 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 1: That's a friend and a fun friend, whatever you want. 53 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 2: To call them. Yeah. 54 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: And then now I'm back on television. This is my 55 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 1: second season of a new show, and I'm still single. 56 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:32,640 Speaker 1: But the thing that's different this time around is now 57 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: I'm on HRT. So I'm single and I'm wildly ready 58 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 1: to meet someone. 59 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 3: Well, I mean, first of all, I have a couple questions, 60 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 3: but I'll just say this. I just want to remind 61 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 3: you and listeners that have similar stories around divorce that 62 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 3: divorce is really traumatic, and divorce with children, it's really 63 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 3: really traumatic, and there are a lot even in the 64 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 3: best of circumstances, And I don't know what yours were, 65 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 3: but they don't sound like they qualify for the best 66 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:11,119 Speaker 3: of circumstances. But even under the best of circumstances, it's 67 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 3: really really hard and it takes a while for the mind, body, 68 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 3: spirit to recover. And I think it has an impact 69 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 3: that people don't even realize until they realize it is 70 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 3: a real paradigm shift and a version of an existential crisis, 71 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 3: especially with kids and so you doing a version of 72 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 3: relationally reeling posted divorce for this period of time is 73 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 3: not that surprising. I don't mean that related to you specifically, 74 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:44,159 Speaker 3: I just mean in general, it's a lot to recover from. 75 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 3: And so I just think having a version of like 76 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 3: empathy and understanding that you're going to have some trauma 77 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:54,720 Speaker 3: responses and emotional hangover from your experience that's going to 78 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:59,479 Speaker 3: impact how you move through relationships for this season. I'm 79 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 3: sure you're list to not to have that always be 80 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 3: the case, but I just kind of want to honor 81 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 3: that truth because I think it's sacred and not something 82 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 3: to be suppressed or rushed through. I think said that, 83 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:15,039 Speaker 3: I am curious from your perspective. You know, the only 84 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:17,279 Speaker 3: thing you and I have at this moment besides like 85 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:21,160 Speaker 3: twenty thirty minutes, is also the things that you have 86 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 3: control over that you know about how you move through relationships, 87 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 3: And I'm just curious from your perspective what you think 88 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 3: impacts how you show up in a relationship and what 89 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 3: are the arenas that you want to look at and 90 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 3: strengthen or shift. 91 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:39,280 Speaker 1: Well, first of all, thank you so much for acknowledging 92 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 1: the trauma that I went through. I think when people 93 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:45,359 Speaker 1: hear me talk about they're like, oh, yeah, yeah, she's fine. No, 94 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 1: I didn't say it was fine. I said I took 95 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:50,600 Speaker 1: care of it. You weren't listening to me. I didn't 96 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: have the luxury. 97 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 2: To not be fine. 98 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:55,599 Speaker 1: I two children, and my husband was a lot older 99 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:58,360 Speaker 1: than I was, and I just needed to make sure 100 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 1: that my kids were in the best possible life. Ever, 101 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:08,359 Speaker 1: that's my responsibility, but doesn't mean that I didn't suffer. 102 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:12,280 Speaker 1: Doesn't mean that I wasn't feeling like absolutely, doesn't mean 103 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 1: that I wasn't feeling wildly insecure. That doesn't mean any 104 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 1: of that. So thank you for acknowledging that. Honestly, you 105 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 1: can cry because I'm like no one ever everyone's like, oh, yeah, yeah, 106 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: it's fine, she's fine. Like no, No, Just because I handle 107 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: things doesn't mean I don't feel. 108 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:32,480 Speaker 3: Yes, and there's something, Yeah, there's something particularly insidious someone 109 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 3: like you who's entirely capable, and so it can appear 110 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:38,920 Speaker 3: as if it's quote fine, and of course in many 111 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 3: ways it's completely fine because it had to be, and 112 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:44,839 Speaker 3: you have those internal resources and can curate the external 113 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 3: ones needed. But the toll is silent and insidious to 114 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 3: use my word again, And I think it's really important 115 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 3: to keep that in mind about incredible, courageous women who 116 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:58,360 Speaker 3: are post divorced and doing all those things, to keep 117 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 3: in mind that empathy and compassion and how vulnerable and 118 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:02,919 Speaker 3: scary it actually feels. 119 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: I mean, also, I am a writer, and you know 120 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 1: I worked with many many magazines. I have written many books, 121 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 1: and it's my job to create narratives and especially in 122 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 1: that situation, with my job to create narratives that kept 123 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 1: my ex husband and my children both safe. So that's 124 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 1: my job. That's I know, that's my job, and I 125 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 1: know how to do it well. But doesn't mean again, 126 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 1: doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. Like you know, when things 127 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 1: cut with me, they get really really deep. 128 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 2: I'm a Taurus. 129 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: I love my friends, my family, I have a twin brother, 130 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 1: I have great great I had great parents. I'm very, 131 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 1: very fortunate to have love in my life. 132 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 2: But I'm you. 133 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: Know, I have I have a lot of fear and 134 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: I have a lot of hurt. 135 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 2: I have a lot of hurt. 136 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, thank you for being so open and vulnerable 137 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 3: about that. Because you're saying it, maybe maybe other women 138 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 3: can feel like they can say it to them selves 139 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 3: or to save others or both. You know thisms to 140 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 3: be true. I mean one can be scared and heard 141 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 3: and vulnerable and also be I live through your life 142 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 3: in a really strong, you know way. It two things 143 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 3: can be true at the same time. But I would 144 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 3: be curious, like, from your perspective, what are thematically? What 145 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 3: shows up in your relationships you know that you want 146 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 3: to think about or work on. 147 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 1: Or I think it's the same kind of just like 148 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:32,199 Speaker 1: you nailed it, like this curation. I think I'm constantly 149 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 1: curating narratives for people. 150 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:36,079 Speaker 2: If they say, oh. 151 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 1: I had a bad ex wife, I'm like, oh, you know, 152 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: these are the kind of things that you can work on. 153 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 1: We can talk about it together. I'm here to you know, 154 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:45,079 Speaker 1: talk here, listen to you. 155 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:49,440 Speaker 2: But I don't want to do that. I don't want to. 156 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: Be curating people's narratives like this is my life, this 157 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 1: is I'm the person. I'm the main character energy here, 158 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: not them, And I want I mean I got divorced 159 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 1: with the intention of finding someone and finding more than 160 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 1: finding love, but finding someone who was going to listen 161 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 1: to me and be genuinely curious about me. I mean 162 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 1: this's going to sound very strange, but I kind of 163 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 1: thought about this the other day that there's the Kelly 164 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:19,560 Speaker 1: Bensimone personality that people see and they think, and then 165 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:22,560 Speaker 1: there's the Kelly Klaurin from Rockford, Illinois, and that's who 166 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: they're dating. They're not dating Kelly Bensimone writer whatever it is, 167 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 1: you know, all those different slashes and hypheness whatever you 168 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 1: want to call them, they're dating me. 169 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 2: And it really. 170 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting because it's like everyone's like, oh, 171 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 1: you're an attachment kind of style, Like, oh no, no, no, 172 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 1: I'm gonna avoidant. I tie a boat on you to 173 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 1: push you away. I'm not attaching to you unless we're 174 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:55,080 Speaker 1: I really feel like I can actually trust you, which 175 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 1: is very very hard for me. What are your thoughts 176 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:00,120 Speaker 1: on that? Do you think I'm an attachment. 177 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:07,199 Speaker 3: Well, you know, I don't like to put such heavy labels. 178 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 3: It sounds like, you know, you've cultivated a coping strategy 179 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:17,680 Speaker 3: that keeps your vulnerability somewhat at bay, but it's not attractable. 180 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 3: And I feel like when people talk about attachment styles, 181 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 3: it makes it feel intractable and impossible to like address 182 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:28,680 Speaker 3: and take on as if it can't be shifted or 183 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 3: thought about it in a different way. I mean, what 184 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 3: you said at the beginning is so insightful and profound 185 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 3: and meaningful, meaning that your tendency to help people create narratives, 186 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:44,680 Speaker 3: which I'm translating into you taking care of people, right, 187 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:47,560 Speaker 3: you helping people make meaning of their own lives and 188 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:50,199 Speaker 3: you know whatever, we want to call it, saving them, 189 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 3: rescuing them, being of counsel to them. And that does 190 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:55,440 Speaker 3: a number of things. I mean, first of all, it's 191 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 3: lovely in a beautiful skill of yours. I don't I'm 192 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 3: not saying that majorata of I mean it, And I 193 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:04,320 Speaker 3: imagine it's a comfort zone of yours that you're really 194 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 3: good at it, and so you might immediately go there 195 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 3: because it feels like a position of strength for you. 196 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 3: It feels like something you do well, and it's compelling. 197 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 3: But too much of it without like emotional diversification, means 198 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 3: that there's automatically a power imbalance or some kind of imbalance, 199 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:25,560 Speaker 3: namely that you're the one, as you said, putting a 200 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 3: bow on people's stories, and your vulnerability doesn't have a 201 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 3: way in and I imagine part of you does that 202 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:39,680 Speaker 3: purposely right to protect yourself. And I imagine part of 203 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 3: you does that habitually because you're used to it. 204 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:44,199 Speaker 1: Well, I mean, as a writer, your job is to 205 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:45,200 Speaker 1: synthesize information. 206 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:45,960 Speaker 2: So that's what I do. 207 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:49,439 Speaker 1: Is I hear what a person is saying, I synthesize it, 208 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 1: I process it, and then I say, well, here's my 209 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 1: takeaway for you. 210 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, that's not what I want to do my on. 211 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 1: A Tuesday at eight o'clock at night. I don't want 212 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 1: to be listening to someone and synthesizing for them and 213 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 1: promising for them. 214 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:04,679 Speaker 2: Like I do that all day long. 215 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 1: I don't need to do it at home, so I 216 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 1: need to So to your point, like, that isn't what. 217 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 2: I want to do. I don't. I don't. 218 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 1: I'm not a savior. I'm not someone that saves you. 219 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 1: I'm someone that kind of like, listen, I listen to men. 220 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:23,079 Speaker 1: So men really are attracted to me, which is very 221 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: nice and very you know, obviously a beautiful thing. But 222 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 1: I also have a twin brother, so I'm not intimidated. 223 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 1: So when I talk to men, I'm not like, oh 224 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:34,079 Speaker 1: my god, he talked to me and he called me. 225 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:34,960 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh he called me. 226 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 2: That was nice. 227 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 1: Made a nice time. Like I don't have those those 228 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 1: kind of male relationships because I don't understand the male brand. 229 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 1: But I'm a twin, like I'm just I have a 230 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 1: I just feel very comfortable and confident around men, which 231 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:57,839 Speaker 1: is also complicated. I'm complicated, Hillary, I'm complicated. 232 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:01,680 Speaker 3: Well, here's a challenge, is that maybe you will feel 233 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 3: potentially less comfortable in quotes around man or a man 234 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:13,080 Speaker 3: if you don't immediately embody the role of synthesizer. Right. 235 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 3: And when I say not comfortable, I mean just more vulnerable, 236 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 3: more present, more open, you know. For I often say 237 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 3: this to clients and it sounds so obvious, but it 238 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 3: feels poignant. It's like, for things to be different, you 239 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:27,960 Speaker 3: have to do something differently. 240 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 1: You have to. 241 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 3: You can have all the insight in the world from 242 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:34,320 Speaker 3: the best therapist, you know, the most amazing friends, but 243 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 3: if you don't do something behaviorally that is different, you're 244 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:39,840 Speaker 3: going to have the same result. You really have to 245 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 3: pair insight with different behavior to have something feel different. 246 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 3: And so, you know, showing up and deliberately preventing yourself 247 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:53,439 Speaker 3: from doing that, maybe you can do it a little. 248 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 3: But guiding yourself to sit in the silence and the 249 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 3: awkwardness and the discomfort, you know, and might compel him 250 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:04,839 Speaker 3: whoever he is, to ask a question or to get 251 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:08,079 Speaker 3: more curious about you rather than filling the space with 252 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:08,560 Speaker 3: what you know. 253 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: I just I went on a date this past couple 254 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 1: of days and the guy was just kind of like, 255 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 1: how long you've been single? And he's He's like, honestly, like, 256 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 1: I really don't care. I just if you want to 257 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 1: talk about it, you can. I was like, you know, 258 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: it's not that I care about how long that I've 259 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 1: been single. I just want you to know that it's 260 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 1: not like I'm waiting around to be in a relationships relationship. 261 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 1: I just want to enjoy myself. 262 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 2: Like I'm at that. 263 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 1: Stage of my life in my career where I am 264 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 1: in all the businesses that I run, I'm just very 265 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 1: comfortable and I'm just looking for just someone to like. 266 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: I had such a nice time at dinner with him, 267 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 1: and I just like, I'm just looking to enjoy my life. 268 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: And he literally his face like just kind of melted. 269 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 1: Instead of him being like, she wants to get married 270 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: tomorrow and. 271 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 2: She wants to do these things and she needs this, 272 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 2: and she dos. 273 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 1: That he was just like he was like, I'm so 274 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 1: happy to meet you. And I was like, oh my god, 275 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 1: Like I approached this in a different way, and I 276 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 1: didn't even know that I was. 277 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, I just felt different. 278 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 3: That's really interesting. Yeah, and you were able to follow 279 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 3: that energy and speak and embody a truth that was compelling. 280 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 3: You know, the more alignment we're in, the more compelling 281 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 3: it is. I think. 282 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: I also was just in a major car accident, a 283 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 1: really serious car accident, two weeks ago, and. 284 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 2: I am just I just was like I. 285 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 1: Woke up one morning and I'm like, what am I doing. 286 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: My twin brothers like Kelly, He's like, one second more, 287 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 1: you would have been dead. He's like, do you realize, 288 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 1: like how lucky you are? And I know that sounds, 289 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 1: you know, very cliche. I had this moment, this cathartic moment. 290 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 1: I changed, I would changed. I just feel differently about 291 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 1: and I'm approaching things in a different way because I'm 292 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 1: grateful for where I am, genuinely. 293 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 3: One of one of the elements to bring into your 294 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 3: pursuit relationally is is vulnerability around wanting to be known. Right. 295 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 3: You don't want to be the only curator of stories. 296 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 3: You want that to be mutual you want someone to 297 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 3: know you, which you should want someone to know you 298 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 3: mutually for that reciprocity to occur, and even going in 299 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 3: with that intention of wanting to be known, you know, 300 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 3: I mean, you might even put words to that that 301 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 3: like along the lines of like, hey, I just want 302 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 3: to be in good company with someone and enjoy space, 303 00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 3: like you could add I want to be I want 304 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 3: to know someone. I want to be known, you know, 305 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 3: as part of like what you're looking for. 306 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 2: Actually love that. 307 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 1: I love that you just want to be known, and 308 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: I love it. And I mean I don't have those educated, 309 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:15,400 Speaker 1: articulate words, but I did say something a little bit 310 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:19,119 Speaker 1: along the lines, which again like gave him that opportunity 311 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 1: to just relax and not be afraid. 312 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 3: Yes, and also keeps you accountable from from embodying that 313 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:29,880 Speaker 3: same role over and over again of being the one 314 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:30,680 Speaker 3: to know the other. 315 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 1: I want to your advice about dating, you know, I went, 316 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:47,120 Speaker 1: I'm back on Hinge and Ryan, I'm like, Okay, I'm going. 317 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:48,679 Speaker 2: To actually like do you want to go on date? 318 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:50,200 Speaker 2: Let's do Let's go on a date. 319 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 1: But like all my friends are like, oh, he's asking 320 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 1: me specific questions I'm like, I'm not asking anyone anything anymore. 321 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: I am so tired of asking them questions. That's boring me. 322 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 2: Like I'm just like. 323 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 1: I just want to have you, get you for two 324 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 1: hours and people present who exactly who they are. They 325 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:11,719 Speaker 1: tell you I don't need to ask the questions. They 326 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:14,400 Speaker 1: are ready to tell you, and they tell you exactly 327 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: what you're like, Hey, I'm floating, they're floating. Hey, you know, 328 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:20,400 Speaker 1: Max wife was really really mean to me, and I'm 329 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: looking for someone that's not mean to me. They're looking 330 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:27,919 Speaker 1: they're telling you or me and or me what the 331 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 1: story is. And I was just like I wented a 332 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: couple of days. These guys seemed really really nice. They're 333 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: all very educated, nice jobs everything, and I just was like, 334 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 1: I can't do this. 335 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:38,479 Speaker 2: I just can't do this. I was like, it's not 336 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,640 Speaker 2: going to go forward. I just can't. 337 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:43,720 Speaker 1: I can't be interviewed every single time and go on 338 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:47,719 Speaker 1: a date and I can't have you like tap dancing 339 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:51,920 Speaker 1: around me, like you know, let's have a glass of wine. Great, 340 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 1: I'll meet you for half an hour. Like I need 341 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,719 Speaker 1: you to just be like available and wanted to do 342 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 1: things and just like seeing how things go versus creating 343 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 1: some kind of like one, two, three, let's get to 344 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 1: the third. Yeah, so how do I how do I 345 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:14,360 Speaker 1: tell these men stop triving to the third third date 346 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:15,399 Speaker 1: so we can have sex? 347 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 3: Ah? 348 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 2: That was long winned. 349 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, no, but I needed the background actually, you know, 350 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:25,359 Speaker 3: kind of aligning with what we were just saying about 351 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:27,399 Speaker 3: the notion of wanting to be known. I mean, I 352 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:29,679 Speaker 3: think you could directly say that, you know that, Like, 353 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:32,479 Speaker 3: I'm I'm a I'm in a phase. I'm in a 354 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:35,679 Speaker 3: season where I want to be like slow, deliberate, have 355 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:39,159 Speaker 3: like companionship. I want to know someone. I want to 356 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:41,639 Speaker 3: be known, and I want to like slow roll the 357 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:44,479 Speaker 3: other stuff I just do. And that might be resonant 358 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 3: for you. It might not be like you can you 359 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 3: let me know? 360 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 1: But a lot of the guys are like they're saying 361 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 1: to me, like, if you don't have sex with someone, 362 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 1: you don't know how you feel about them. I'm like, well, 363 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 1: first of all, you're not going to sex with me. Like, 364 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:57,640 Speaker 1: I'm just not like that anyway. I'm I mean, I'm 365 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 1: I'm i am not on no one else's time of 366 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 1: my own. If I feel like having sex with you, 367 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 1: we will have sex. If I do not have feel 368 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:06,399 Speaker 1: like having sex, if we might not have sex for 369 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 1: a month, yes, that's no harm, no foul like, Yes, 370 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: that's just who I am. If you cannot wait for 371 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 1: the month, then you're not going to be dating me. 372 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 3: I think you have the answer already inside of you. 373 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:24,639 Speaker 3: I mean, I just to kind of clarify it for 374 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 3: you and for other women and women listening that any 375 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:34,200 Speaker 3: narrative that sex must happen in a particular time frame 376 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:39,679 Speaker 3: for your potential male partner, is there a narrative, and 377 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,359 Speaker 3: it doesn't make it bad or wrong, but it is theirs, 378 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 3: and you don't have to adopt it. Obviously, pressure is 379 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:50,880 Speaker 3: a whole other thing. But if someone is still respectfully 380 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:54,880 Speaker 3: or playfully or something you know, putting forth this narrative, 381 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 3: you can listen to it and respect it, but clearly 382 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 3: stay like it just doesn't rest with me. For me, 383 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 3: I like to have it unfold slowly, and for me, 384 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,360 Speaker 3: sex comes on the back of more time and more 385 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 3: emotional connection, and it doesn't make you wrong in me right, 386 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 3: But that is who I am. And I think there's 387 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:16,959 Speaker 3: some real empowerment in being able to look up person 388 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:18,680 Speaker 3: in the eye and say this is who I am 389 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:21,119 Speaker 3: and feel really good about it rather than feeling like 390 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:25,120 Speaker 3: you're compromising an opportunity. It might sound cliche, but if 391 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 3: that isn't resonant with someone that can't be your person, 392 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 3: it's a pretty low bar ask, right. 393 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:33,199 Speaker 1: And I feel like a lot of men think that 394 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 1: if they do try to get me to have sex, 395 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:39,440 Speaker 1: then they're going to lock me in or I'm a 396 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 1: locker in with sex because I'm having sex with her 397 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 1: and she can only have sex with me and because 398 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:45,200 Speaker 1: she doesn't want, you know, and I'm just like what 399 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:51,879 Speaker 1: is going on? Like yeah, I'm like, wait, what I would? 400 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 3: I would be even more direct than you have been, 401 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 3: you know that, Like in case it's confusing, like this 402 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 3: is this is my state of the union on sex, right? 403 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 3: You know that it's it's on the back of time 404 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:07,399 Speaker 3: and companionship and emotional connection and that you know, if 405 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 3: that's not resonant, totally cool, like, but just not going 406 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:12,439 Speaker 3: to be an alignment for me. 407 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 1: Okay. Final thoughts for women that are like me that 408 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:19,879 Speaker 1: I don't know what to ask men on a date, Like, 409 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 1: give me like two questions I should ask men on 410 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: my first date. 411 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 3: Gosh, I mean to be honest. I look, if there 412 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 3: are questions that come up that feel organic, ask them, 413 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 3: you know, sort of all the typical questions like like 414 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:40,919 Speaker 3: what got you here? Like what season are you in? 415 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:45,480 Speaker 3: Relationship wise? You know, you know, what's what's resonant for 416 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 3: you in your life right now? Like what are the 417 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:48,960 Speaker 3: things that make you you? You know kind of thing 418 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 3: I think are fun, playful, like low pressure things. But 419 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 3: also I don't think to your earlier point that one 420 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 3: has to feel armed with a bunch of really compelling, 421 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 3: unique questions. You know, first meetings, first dates are all 422 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:09,440 Speaker 3: fraught with those key parts you know of like awkwardness 423 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:13,880 Speaker 3: and weirdness and some prescriptedness. And I think that's okay, 424 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 3: you know, even acknowledging that can sort of be like yep, 425 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,159 Speaker 3: I might ask you a bunch of questions that are 426 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 3: standard fair for this first date, but doesn't make me 427 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 3: less interested here I go. You know, you can narrate 428 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:29,120 Speaker 3: the process of awkwardness and strangeness. And I think there's 429 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 3: anything particularly unique or special that one has to force 430 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 3: themselves to bring, but rather to sort of acknowledge that, like, 431 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 3: you know, I know this could be weird, but it 432 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,399 Speaker 3: doesn't make me less interested in like what your deal is, like, 433 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 3: what your state of the union is, what do you 434 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 3: like to do day to day? Like who are you? 435 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:45,119 Speaker 2: You know? 436 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 3: Kind of thing. I think it's completely fine to narrate 437 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:52,440 Speaker 3: the awkwardness of it rather than pretend that it doesn't 438 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:54,160 Speaker 3: have that prescribed quality. 439 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 1: Oh my god, thank you so much. I love the 440 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: idea of being known, and I love the idea of 441 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:06,640 Speaker 1: taking space. I love those two takeaways, doctor Hillary. 442 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 2: Thank you. I'm so happy to see you, by the way. 443 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 1: Oh god, often, Oh my god, you're fantastic, and you're 444 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,959 Speaker 1: just so articulate, and you're just very very very easy 445 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:19,199 Speaker 1: to talk to. Appreciate you. 446 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:21,200 Speaker 3: It's so good to see you, Kelly. 447 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:24,399 Speaker 1: And thank you for acknowledging my fear. And I really 448 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,199 Speaker 1: that means a lot. That really means a lot to 449 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:26,879 Speaker 1: thank you. 450 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, all right, all right? 451 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 1: Are you like me and trying to navigate this crazy 452 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,200 Speaker 1: world of dating? Do you have questions or need advice? 453 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 1: Send us an email or leave us a voicemail. All 454 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,120 Speaker 1: the info are in the show notes and follow us 455 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:46,920 Speaker 1: on socials. I do Part two an iHeartRadio podcast where 456 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 1: falling in love is the main objective.