WEBVTT - Google Dodges An Antitrust Bullet & Calls for RFK Jr to Resign 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:07.000 This is Bloomberg Law with June Grossel from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:12.920 In the biggest tech antitrust case in three decades, Google 0:00:13.000 --> 0:00:17.720 avoided a breakup after a DC federal judge ruled against 0:00:17.800 --> 0:00:23.079 the government's most severe proposals for remedies, including a forced 0:00:23.160 --> 0:00:27.120 sale of its Chrome browser. Judge on Metmeta had already 0:00:27.200 --> 0:00:31.880 found in August of twenty twenty four that Google illegally 0:00:32.000 --> 0:00:35.680 dominated the search market by paying more than twenty six 0:00:35.760 --> 0:00:39.240 billion dollars to Apple and other companies to make its 0:00:39.240 --> 0:00:44.120 search engine the default option on smartphones and web browsers. 0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:49.000 Tuesday's ruling was all about the fix, and Google will 0:00:49.040 --> 0:00:53.600 have to make some concessions, including sharing online search data 0:00:53.680 --> 0:00:58.760 with rivals and ending exclusive contracts for distribution. My guest 0:00:58.840 --> 0:01:02.760 is antitrust law expert Harry First, a professor at NYU 0:01:02.880 --> 0:01:07.400 Law School. So on its website, the Department of Justice says, 0:01:08.040 --> 0:01:13.720 Department of Justice wins significant remedies against Google, but this 0:01:13.840 --> 0:01:19.039 falls far short of the severe remedies that the government wanted. 0:01:19.600 --> 0:01:22.120 How much of a setback is it for the government 0:01:22.360 --> 0:01:25.400 in its attempt to curb the power of the biggest 0:01:25.400 --> 0:01:26.240 tech companies? 0:01:26.800 --> 0:01:30.119 Well, you know, people often talk about things as being 0:01:30.160 --> 0:01:33.720 a win win, and that's a good thing. So I 0:01:33.880 --> 0:01:37.640 think that the judge's decision is a win win, but 0:01:37.800 --> 0:01:40.480 not a good thing. So why is it a win 0:01:40.560 --> 0:01:45.000 win because the Justice Department and the States gets something 0:01:45.520 --> 0:01:50.160 and Google gets more by their not being more. So 0:01:50.560 --> 0:01:53.760 I view it as win in sort of eight point 0:01:53.840 --> 0:01:57.560 type on the government's side, and win in sort of 0:01:57.680 --> 0:02:01.800 sixteen point type on Google. Said, so, here's what I mean. 0:02:02.200 --> 0:02:05.280 It's not a significant victory for the Justice Department. They 0:02:05.280 --> 0:02:09.320 did win some things, and you know, maybe that will 0:02:09.320 --> 0:02:13.280 help bring some competition into search. But I think Google 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:17.360 won a lot by not losing very much. They get 0:02:17.400 --> 0:02:20.320 to keep Chrome. A lot of the remedies that the 0:02:20.480 --> 0:02:27.519 Department asked for and got even were cut down, circumscribed, diminished. 0:02:28.400 --> 0:02:32.280 And you know, whether what the judge did will end 0:02:32.400 --> 0:02:37.519 up changing the search business, I doubt but who knows. 0:02:38.200 --> 0:02:42.000 But we've now passed the point where the question will 0:02:42.040 --> 0:02:45.640 be will we get competition? And the question will just 0:02:45.720 --> 0:02:49.919 be is Google complying with the decree. Of course, all 0:02:49.960 --> 0:02:54.920 of that comes after a round of appeals, So there's 0:02:55.040 --> 0:02:57.880 much more to this, But in terms of, you know, 0:02:58.000 --> 0:03:01.920 the overall feeling about what we've done. I think it's, 0:03:02.040 --> 0:03:05.000 you know, from a public point of view, a disappointment. 0:03:06.040 --> 0:03:10.200 So the big headline was zoeas will Google be forced 0:03:10.200 --> 0:03:14.280 to sell Chrome? We'll have to divest. So Google doesn't 0:03:14.280 --> 0:03:18.440 have to do that. Why did Judge Meta decide not 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:20.200 to make Google divest Chrome? 0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:24.560 So this is a second point that pervades Judge Meta's decision. 0:03:25.440 --> 0:03:29.400 Rightly in a legal sense, but I think not so 0:03:30.280 --> 0:03:33.680 correct from a policy point of view and really where 0:03:33.720 --> 0:03:36.240 the law ought to be. So this is in many 0:03:36.240 --> 0:03:40.800 ways a very conservative opinion. It's the judge expressing what 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:46.400 judges often express is that they understand the limits of 0:03:46.440 --> 0:03:50.080 who they are, what the institution can do, and what 0:03:50.120 --> 0:03:53.920 they want to do on an ongoing basis. So they're 0:03:54.000 --> 0:03:59.240 conservative about this. And here the government's plaintiffs are asking 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:03.960 them to do some pretty strong restructuring of one of 0:04:04.000 --> 0:04:08.560 the superstar firms in the United States. So you got 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:12.320 to be a little modest. Now. The judge backs up 0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:16.599 his modesty with a lot of quotations from the Court 0:04:16.600 --> 0:04:20.200 of Appeals and recently from the Supreme Court in a 0:04:20.200 --> 0:04:24.440 different anti trust case opinion written by Justice Gorsuch, which 0:04:24.560 --> 0:04:29.000 counsels let's be careful a little bit. So the ask 0:04:29.440 --> 0:04:33.320 that Chrome be divested structural relief is something that the 0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:38.000 DC Circuit itself. Remember, Judge Meta is a district court 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:41.719 judge overseen by a Court of Appeals from the DC 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:46.880 Circuit District of Columbia Circuit, so he's required to follow 0:04:47.440 --> 0:04:51.040 the law from that circuit. The law from that circuit 0:04:51.120 --> 0:04:58.040 on remedies is actually pretty conservative and cautious, and that 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:02.279 stems from actually the Microsoft case, which is much the 0:05:02.360 --> 0:05:05.839 template for the complaint that the government filed and for 0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:09.120 the government's theories. So you know, they said, well, when 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:13.680 it comes to structural relief, restructuring, reorganizing a company, you 0:05:13.800 --> 0:05:16.599 really need some strong proof before you do that. You 0:05:16.720 --> 0:05:21.040 need to watch out. And so he took those admonitions 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:27.440 to heart and just didn't find enough to overcome that 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:30.599 sort of a presumption that you know, you don't do 0:05:30.720 --> 0:05:34.359 this unless you really have to do it for effective relief. 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:38.479 And this then goes to the second part that maybe 0:05:38.560 --> 0:05:42.240 the government didn't make an effective enough case for divesting 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:47.160 Chrome and maybe made it seem too easy. So stuck 0:05:47.200 --> 0:05:50.360 with all of that, he backed away from it. 0:05:50.960 --> 0:05:55.800 How much did AI play into his decision, So that's. 0:05:55.560 --> 0:05:58.480 Maybe the real lead which we're now burying. I think 0:05:58.600 --> 0:06:02.559 his decision is all about it, frankly, and I think 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:06.520 that he's betting, and many in the industry, and if 0:06:06.520 --> 0:06:09.000 you listen to some of the news shows, are just 0:06:09.040 --> 0:06:12.599 simply betting that AI is going to replace search as 0:06:12.640 --> 0:06:17.000 we know it with something else that's not search as 0:06:17.040 --> 0:06:19.680 we know it, or maybe as you and I know it, 0:06:19.880 --> 0:06:25.520 but just simply getting information, and that Google Search, that product, 0:06:25.880 --> 0:06:29.440 no matter what he does in this opinion, is going 0:06:29.560 --> 0:06:34.520 to be eclipsed by some AI product, and I think 0:06:34.560 --> 0:06:39.159 that that permeates. I think that he views generative AI 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:41.800 as coming to the rescue of competition. 0:06:42.320 --> 0:06:45.760 Yeah. Some say it's already eroding Google's events. 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:46.560 Yea. 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:49.200 The data seemed to show. He mentions this in his 0:06:49.279 --> 0:06:54.719 opinion that searches on Safari have decreased. You know, people 0:06:54.839 --> 0:06:58.200 seem to be going directly to you know, chat, GPT 0:06:58.520 --> 0:07:03.279 or Perplexity or some of these other AI assistant things 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:08.000 and just getting information that way. And this is the 0:07:08.040 --> 0:07:13.600 destructive force of innovation, as the economist Joseph Schumpeter talked 0:07:13.600 --> 0:07:17.200 about many years ago. So maybe he's right, and you 0:07:17.240 --> 0:07:19.840 know that may mean that sort of didn't matter what 0:07:19.920 --> 0:07:24.080 he did so long as AI lives. But of course 0:07:24.120 --> 0:07:29.000 the worry is that we'll just replicate the current structure 0:07:29.200 --> 0:07:33.400 of the tech platform. Superstar firms will just control AI, 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:37.960 and we won't have moved to new competition, but we'll 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:39.120 have a different product. 0:07:40.360 --> 0:07:44.240 He's ordering Google to share data with rivals to open 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:48.640 up competition in online search. Google has to share some 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:51.600 of the data with competitors, but not some of its 0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:52.800 most important data. 0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:56.320 Would you say, well, here again, it's hard to say 0:07:56.360 --> 0:07:59.560 exactly what our important data. You could say all of 0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:03.360 the data are important, the more the more. But you know, 0:08:03.640 --> 0:08:08.000 this particularly involves the search index, which is something that 0:08:08.280 --> 0:08:12.800 Google has done really well, and the government in some 0:08:12.840 --> 0:08:14.800 ways didn't ask for as much as it could, which 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:17.800 would have been a license to the index itself. What 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:21.200 they wanted is some help with the data so competitors 0:08:21.240 --> 0:08:25.640 could build an index. And even with that, the judge 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:29.760 cut down the kinds of data that will be required 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:34.960 to be disclosed, and to me, even more importantly, the 0:08:35.000 --> 0:08:39.200 timing of the disclosure. So for some of these data 0:08:39.240 --> 0:08:42.960 it's a one time snapshot, which strikes me. As you know, 0:08:43.200 --> 0:08:46.760 the judge calls at a kickstart for competition. Yeah, like 0:08:46.840 --> 0:08:49.280 a kick in the rear. I don't know, you know, 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:53.559 a one time thing for some very important parts of 0:08:53.720 --> 0:08:57.320 some basic information to help them put together a better 0:08:57.400 --> 0:09:00.440 index of the web. There's an awful lot of information 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:03.960 out there, and indexing it is critical for an effective 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:07.840 search engine. And you know, when it comes to sort 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:11.920 of this user side data to click and query. You 0:09:11.960 --> 0:09:15.600 know what we do when we get free search is 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:19.160 create data that's worth a heck of a lot of 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:23.040 money for which we don't get paid, we being you 0:09:23.200 --> 0:09:26.240 and me and all the other users. But these data 0:09:26.559 --> 0:09:31.760 here Again, the judge cuts down the request, gives some 0:09:31.960 --> 0:09:36.079 amount of the request, and then sort of puts on 0:09:36.240 --> 0:09:40.440 some limits yet to be decided about how often this 0:09:40.640 --> 0:09:44.600 will be disclosed more than once. Now it's not just 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:48.680 a snapshot, but the cap yet to be determined by 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:52.360 this technical committee that the decree is going to set up. 0:09:52.800 --> 0:09:55.600 So I don't know, it's you know, it's hard for 0:09:55.600 --> 0:09:59.640 me to say exactly, you know, will this enable competitors 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:03.120 real to really get an effect of competing search engine 0:10:03.520 --> 0:10:05.839 or will it not quite be enough? And in some 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:09.120 ways this goes to what I've always viewed as the 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:13.719 underlying problem with these decrees is a judge trying to 0:10:13.800 --> 0:10:19.000 say what competitors need to succeed, instead of a judge saying, 0:10:19.600 --> 0:10:22.600 don't ask me, just come back, you know, Google, just 0:10:22.679 --> 0:10:26.440 come back and let me know whether there's competition or not. 0:10:26.800 --> 0:10:28.480 And if there isn't, we're going to have to do 0:10:28.559 --> 0:10:31.960 something more about it. You know, trying for judges or 0:10:32.000 --> 0:10:35.280 even the Justice Department, which apparently at least is still 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:37.960 made up of some lawyers. You know, trying to design 0:10:38.080 --> 0:10:42.120 these remedies is tough, and you can feel it with 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:45.400 what the judge is written in this opinion. It's hard 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:48.400 and trying to figure out what the effect is going 0:10:48.480 --> 0:10:50.280 to be. And he says at the beginning, you know, 0:10:51.120 --> 0:10:54.080 I don't have a crystal ball. Other judges have used 0:10:54.080 --> 0:10:57.960 that worry as well when being asked to predict effects 0:10:58.360 --> 0:10:59.480 in future markets. 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:02.760 Coming up next on the Bloomberg Lawn Show, I'll continue 0:11:02.760 --> 0:11:07.680 this conversation with NYU law professor Harry First. Google has 0:11:07.840 --> 0:11:12.199 already said it's going to appeal. Will judge Meta's decisions 0:11:12.240 --> 0:11:15.319 stand up? I'm June Grosso. When you're listening to Bloomberg, 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:19.560 a federal judge ordered a shake up of Google's search 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:22.719 engine in an attempt to curb the power of an 0:11:22.760 --> 0:11:27.360 illegal monopoly, while rejecting the government's attempt to break up 0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:31.800 the company and impose other restraints. The two hundred twenty 0:11:31.800 --> 0:11:35.760 six page decision made by DC Federal Judge on Meta 0:11:36.120 --> 0:11:40.440 will likely ripple across the technological landscape at a time 0:11:40.480 --> 0:11:45.600 when the industry is being reshaped by artificial intelligence, as 0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:50.800 companies like Chat, GPT and Perplexity try to upend Google's 0:11:50.880 --> 0:11:55.920 long held position as the Internet's main gateway. Those innovations 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:59.880 and competition reshape the judge's approach to the remedies in 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:04.559 the nearly five year old anti trust case, Judge Meta wrote, 0:12:04.800 --> 0:12:07.680 unlike the typical case, where the court's job is to 0:12:07.760 --> 0:12:11.760 resolve a dispute based on historic facts, here the judge 0:12:11.800 --> 0:12:14.600 is asked to gaze into a crystal ball and look 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:18.719 to the future. Not exactly a judge's forte. I've been 0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:22.079 talking to anti trust law professor Harry First of NYU 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:25.440 Law School. So, Harry, the judge is directing both sides 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:29.640 to come back by September tenth with a new remedy 0:12:29.679 --> 0:12:33.319 proposal consistent with his ruling or file a status report 0:12:33.440 --> 0:12:36.880 outlining any disagreements. Do you expect anything real from that? 0:12:37.240 --> 0:12:39.240 I think what he's looking for is he's got to 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:42.880 write this down. He's got to enter a decree that 0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:48.520 has definitions, that has specific language that's understandable. I mean, 0:12:48.760 --> 0:12:51.599 the first challenge is figuring out sort of what to 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:57.000 accept in the party's proposals. But the second challenge is 0:12:57.280 --> 0:13:00.320 the drafting of that decree. I think that's what he's 0:13:00.320 --> 0:13:05.080 looking for. Next, you know, give me your actual proposed decrees. 0:13:05.520 --> 0:13:09.439 The parties have done that, they have proposed final judgments, 0:13:09.600 --> 0:13:11.920 but now they've got to take here's what he's ordered, 0:13:12.200 --> 0:13:16.120 and I think he wants language now. He also hinted 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:22.400 at some fallback potential remedies. One of the problems I 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:26.600 think that he faced, and it surfaced in a question 0:13:26.800 --> 0:13:29.680 that he ended up posing on the record, which is 0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:31.840 pretty rare. You know, tell me why you ask for 0:13:31.880 --> 0:13:35.520 this particular thing, Google, please explain it. And he had 0:13:35.559 --> 0:13:38.480 a final hearing. But as he sits down to start 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:42.200 to write the opinion, he he's thinking, I've got an 0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:45.280 interesting different idea here that no one's proposed to me. 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:48.800 Maybe you should think about it. So there's sort of 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:55.000 some version of like conditionality maybe on payments for you know, 0:13:55.040 --> 0:13:58.200 not allowing certain kinds of payments for you said, you 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:00.440 can make any kinds of payments. But maybe there's a 0:14:00.480 --> 0:14:04.360 fallback position. Maybe they had a fallback position for Chrome 0:14:04.720 --> 0:14:07.200 that they might want to articulate now, you know, just 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:09.960 they said, let's get rid of it, but maybe there's 0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:13.000 some fallback. So this may be an opportunity also for 0:14:13.040 --> 0:14:17.280 the parties to propose, in addition to clarifying language, some 0:14:17.640 --> 0:14:22.440 modifications for what he's imposed. So maybe that's that will 0:14:22.480 --> 0:14:25.120 also go on as well. So who said this, Yogi Barret. 0:14:25.160 --> 0:14:27.680 It's not over till it's over, And it was Yogi 0:14:27.720 --> 0:14:30.600 Barrett right, well, allegedly apparently he never said anything that 0:14:30.640 --> 0:14:32.600 he's supposed to have said, which is another thing. 0:14:33.320 --> 0:14:35.120 Yeah, we'll discuss that next time. 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:36.160 Now. 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:39.480 As far as pay to play, the judge said that 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:42.920 this exclusive deal that Google had with Apple where it 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:45.480 pays it something like twenty billion a year to be 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:49.680 of the search default on iPhones, et cetera, So they 0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:52.200 can still do that, but it just can't be exclusive. 0:14:52.480 --> 0:14:57.240 They can pay for the fault, but can't keep others 0:14:57.320 --> 0:15:01.480 from you know, putting another search bar or who knows what, 0:15:01.760 --> 0:15:04.080 but they can still pay for the fault, so they 0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:08.320 can pay anyone for having the default. The faults were 0:15:08.360 --> 0:15:12.400 never exclusive. I mean they were exclusives. So you know, 0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:15.720 you can only out of the box if you, you know, 0:15:15.760 --> 0:15:20.440 were original equipment manufacturer, handset manufacture, you know, an exclusive 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:24.040 to put the Google search bar on if you wanted 0:15:24.080 --> 0:15:28.520 other programs, or you know, inexclusive. If you have an exclusive, 0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:32.080 you get revenue shares things like that. So maybe not that, 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:36.480 but he basically said you can pay for the faults, 0:15:36.640 --> 0:15:40.960 which the testimony from the behavioral economist was that's the 0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:45.760 factual equivalent of a near exclusive because people don't change 0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:49.960 from defaults very often. You know, it's an old behavioral 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:54.800 habit with which we're very familiar and with which Google's familiar. 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:58.840 So the judge did suggest he did this in a footnote. 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:01.920 You read the footnotes too, Harry, I'm impressed. 0:16:02.440 --> 0:16:07.720 Hey, I'm a not quite reformed law professor, and we 0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:10.120 always know you put the good stuff in the footnotes. 0:16:10.240 --> 0:16:13.360 But anyway, at least that's our version. But there is 0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:16.720 a footnote. It's not fourteen. And he said he could 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:20.960 revisit the idea of a ban on paying for default 0:16:21.240 --> 0:16:26.640 but allowing to pay for distribution. So you could say, okay, 0:16:26.640 --> 0:16:30.440 if you distribute Google Search, that's fine, we'll pay you, 0:16:31.000 --> 0:16:34.520 but we can't pay you to make it the default 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:39.200 search engine. Now me said, nobody's sort of raised this. Hello, 0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:42.240 No one raises so I don't know the effect. Hello, 0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:45.120 So maybe we'll get something. You could wonder whether that 0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:48.440 makes any difference, frankly, because once you distribute it, given 0:16:48.720 --> 0:16:52.880 the strength of this default in most people's experience, it 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:55.800 may not make a difference whether you label a default 0:16:55.960 --> 0:16:59.920 or not. If you get you know, the Google win, 0:17:00.360 --> 0:17:02.600 you know on your phone, particularly where it's very strong 0:17:02.880 --> 0:17:06.639 because you want to use Google Search, and whether it 0:17:06.680 --> 0:17:09.760 was a default or not, or whether it's a fault 0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:13.359 in your Chrome browser, which it's going to be, you'll 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:16.439 use it, and you know the payment won't be for 0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:20.720 requiring it to be a default, say on the iPhone. 0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:23.800 But you know, Apple may still make it a default 0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:28.480 unless they're offered a better alternative, which the testimony. The 0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:32.919 testimony from Eddie Q, the Apple guy involved, was that 0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:35.680 he wouldn't buy being for any amount of money. Ever, 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:39.840 apparently so he needs something better, and is he going 0:17:39.880 --> 0:17:43.440 to take away Google Search full from Apple users? I 0:17:43.600 --> 0:17:46.200 doubt it. So there might be some modifications, but at 0:17:46.240 --> 0:17:49.520 the moment Google can still pay for default. And here 0:17:49.560 --> 0:17:54.320 again this was the judge's concern for the impact and 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:59.120 being modest, sort of the impact on you could say, 0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:03.720 the whole eCos system of stopping those payments and you know, 0:18:04.640 --> 0:18:09.720 maybe wrecking Firefox, you know, go, you know, even you 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:12.399 seem to be concerned about wrecking Apple. I didn't know 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:15.600 that Apple was in such bad shape. But there we are. 0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:19.040 Well, the government said it's considering its next steps. I mean, 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:21.680 I don't know what next steps it can take besides appeal. 0:18:22.320 --> 0:18:25.320 But Google has previously said it's going to appeal. So 0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:27.480 we assume we'll go to the Supreme Court. Right, It 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:31.560 could be years, then years and years before this gets implemented. 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:34.520 Yeah, it might not go to the Supreme Court. Court 0:18:34.560 --> 0:18:36.720 doesn't have to take it. Who you know, who knows 0:18:36.840 --> 0:18:41.080 the court didn't take Microsoft for example, So yeah, maybe, yes, 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:43.600 maybe no. But the years is right. This will be 0:18:43.720 --> 0:18:50.399 a while yet, and we haven't seen but could see 0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:55.720 political interference with this. We really don't know. So there's 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:59.240 a lot between now and then, I guess. But the 0:18:59.480 --> 0:19:03.280 liability decision, which he made more than a year ago, 0:19:03.320 --> 0:19:07.480 I guess is that the whole bundle is subject to 0:19:07.600 --> 0:19:12.120 appeal once a final judgment is entered, which he has 0:19:12.160 --> 0:19:16.720 not done yet. So once that's done, then the parties 0:19:16.840 --> 0:19:19.760 have you know, I think, sixty days to file their 0:19:19.800 --> 0:19:24.119 notices of appeal and then the process starts to play 0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:27.120 out in the Court of Appeals, you know, unless they 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:31.640 start some sort of settlement negotiations or something. 0:19:32.080 --> 0:19:35.280 I mean, do you think that his opinion is conservative 0:19:35.400 --> 0:19:38.600 enough to survive the DC Court of Appeals? 0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:44.120 So he did a lot to try to survive review 0:19:44.200 --> 0:19:47.359 by the Court of Appeals. I mean, he relied quite 0:19:47.400 --> 0:19:52.240 heavily on you know, key decisions, particularly the Microsoft remedy decisions. 0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:56.480 And he also, oh, by the way, bolstered one of 0:19:56.520 --> 0:20:00.919 the potential weaknesses in the liability decision while he was 0:20:01.040 --> 0:20:07.000 at it. So I think it's not perfectly bulletproof the 0:20:07.040 --> 0:20:12.479 aspect of letting AI companies share in some of these data. 0:20:13.000 --> 0:20:15.199 If I were Google, I would be hitting on that 0:20:15.320 --> 0:20:18.439 whether that was you know, not warranted given as he 0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:21.600 started out by saying there was nothing at the trial 0:20:21.640 --> 0:20:25.080 about AI and there are ways of casting what he 0:20:25.119 --> 0:20:29.000 did as maybe not within the balance of what the 0:20:29.080 --> 0:20:33.480 goal was in the trial. So there's some potential issue there, 0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:36.720 and I think it is certainly possible. I mean, I 0:20:36.800 --> 0:20:39.080 assume Google will pursue that, So I think it's a 0:20:39.160 --> 0:20:41.560 pretty you know, I mean, it could be more conservative. 0:20:41.600 --> 0:20:45.040 I guess he could have just given Google what Google wanted. 0:20:45.400 --> 0:20:49.359 But it's a carefully drawn opinion, and you know, time 0:20:49.440 --> 0:20:53.400 after time he sort of knocks the government plaintiffs back 0:20:54.040 --> 0:20:56.840 a bit by saying, you know, you've overreached, you're asking 0:20:56.880 --> 0:20:59.400 for too much. You know, we need to be modest, etc. 0:20:59.600 --> 0:20:59.760 Etc. 0:21:00.680 --> 0:21:05.520 Harry the trial later this month to determine remedies in 0:21:05.600 --> 0:21:09.359 a different case brought by the Justice Department, where a 0:21:09.480 --> 0:21:16.240 judge found that Google holds illegal monopolies in online advertising technology. 0:21:16.880 --> 0:21:19.320 How does that threaten Google? Is it more of. 0:21:19.280 --> 0:21:23.280 The same, Well, it is a little different. There's some 0:21:24.000 --> 0:21:28.359 a bit of remedy on advertising, but not very much 0:21:28.480 --> 0:21:33.159 because it's so much directed at effect on the search 0:21:33.200 --> 0:21:39.640 engine market so directly, not so much indirectly. I think 0:21:39.680 --> 0:21:42.840 we have to see it because from the beginning, the 0:21:42.960 --> 0:21:47.440 Justice Department has asked for structural relief to break apart 0:21:48.000 --> 0:21:53.040 the way Google does advertising, you know, to break it 0:21:53.160 --> 0:21:56.760 up in fact, and have them to vest certain parts 0:21:56.840 --> 0:22:02.440 of its advertising stack as they So this opinion is 0:22:02.760 --> 0:22:07.480 very skeptical about this structural relief said, you know, if 0:22:07.520 --> 0:22:10.760 nothing else works, then that may be possible. But the 0:22:10.760 --> 0:22:13.199 ad Tech case may be a case where you know, 0:22:13.280 --> 0:22:16.960 it's been directed at structural relief, so that may be okay. 0:22:17.280 --> 0:22:21.800 Another aspect is how much money Google has made from advertising, 0:22:21.960 --> 0:22:25.199 so it reinforces the notion that this has been a 0:22:25.240 --> 0:22:29.040 monopolized market, so you know, that may have some effect. 0:22:29.440 --> 0:22:32.359 It's important to note that that case is in a 0:22:32.440 --> 0:22:36.880 different federal circuit. It's not in the DC circuit, and 0:22:37.280 --> 0:22:40.679 it may be that the Justice Department chose to file 0:22:40.800 --> 0:22:42.800 there for a number of reasons, but one of it 0:22:42.840 --> 0:22:46.480 may be that on remedy wanting a structural remedy, the 0:22:46.600 --> 0:22:49.119 DC circuit is a bad place to bring a case 0:22:49.240 --> 0:22:52.359 like that given Microsoft, so maybe they were trying to 0:22:52.400 --> 0:22:55.119 avoid that by being in a different circuit, in the 0:22:55.160 --> 0:22:58.000 fourth circuit. So we've yet to see. I think she's 0:22:58.040 --> 0:23:02.080 been holding up on this spending meta's opinion on remedy. 0:23:02.359 --> 0:23:07.439 But you know they are fencing along on remedies hearing 0:23:07.960 --> 0:23:11.840 in that case, so that should happen relatively soon. 0:23:12.320 --> 0:23:15.480 Yes, I googled it and the trial is scheduled to 0:23:15.560 --> 0:23:20.360 begin on September twenty second. Thanks so much, Harry. As always, 0:23:20.680 --> 0:23:24.520 that's Professor Harry First of NYU Law School, coming up 0:23:24.560 --> 0:23:27.720 next on the Bloomberg Law Show. More than one thousand 0:23:28.000 --> 0:23:33.280 HHS employees are calling on rfk Junior to step down. 0:23:33.960 --> 0:23:38.640 I'm June Grosso and you're listening to Bloomberg today. More 0:23:38.680 --> 0:23:42.520 than a thousand current and former employees across the Department 0:23:42.560 --> 0:23:45.720 of Health and Human Services signed a letter calling for 0:23:45.840 --> 0:23:51.280 Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Junior's resignation, accusing him of 0:23:51.440 --> 0:23:55.280 endangering the health of Americans. The new letter comes just 0:23:55.400 --> 0:24:00.159 two days after nine former directors and acting directors of 0:24:00.200 --> 0:24:03.760 the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention wrote an op 0:24:03.960 --> 0:24:09.200 ed also condemning Kennedy for endangering every American's health. Doctor 0:24:09.320 --> 0:24:11.600 Richard Besser was one of the signees. 0:24:12.400 --> 0:24:15.760 We have grave concerns that the Secretary of Health is 0:24:15.880 --> 0:24:18.919 endangering the health of people across our nation by not 0:24:19.080 --> 0:24:22.160 letting the agency do its job, not following the science 0:24:22.480 --> 0:24:25.160 and putting out guidance around COVID vaccine that is leading 0:24:25.200 --> 0:24:25.959 to confusion. 0:24:26.720 --> 0:24:30.040 But it appears Kennedy is not listening. He wrote in 0:24:30.040 --> 0:24:33.320 a Wall Street Journal op ed published today that his 0:24:33.560 --> 0:24:37.760 changes are restoring trust in the CDC that was lost 0:24:37.880 --> 0:24:41.320 during the COVID pandemic. That's something he said before. 0:24:42.000 --> 0:24:44.760 I'm very confident in the political staff that we have 0:24:44.880 --> 0:24:46.399 down there now that they're going to be able to 0:24:46.440 --> 0:24:54.000 accomplish that and ensure the confident functionality of that agency. 0:24:54.600 --> 0:24:57.560 My guest is Harry Nelson, a partner at Leech Tishman 0:24:57.800 --> 0:25:03.320 Nelson Hardiman explain some of the concerns that healthcare professionals 0:25:03.359 --> 0:25:05.119 have about Kennedy. 0:25:05.280 --> 0:25:05.520 Yeah. 0:25:05.560 --> 0:25:08.119 I think first and foremost what they're sounding the alarm 0:25:08.160 --> 0:25:14.320 over is the politicization of public health itself. It just 0:25:14.359 --> 0:25:16.960 seems that, you know that we're kind of in a 0:25:17.880 --> 0:25:23.520 battle where science is losing ground over ideology in steering 0:25:23.560 --> 0:25:26.720 health policy. So, you know, I think that op ed 0:25:26.840 --> 0:25:29.960 was intended to be as public a form of rebuke 0:25:30.040 --> 0:25:33.439 for RSK and the way he's reshaping the CDC and 0:25:33.600 --> 0:25:36.960 public health policy as could be. You know, it was 0:25:37.080 --> 0:25:40.480 the vaccines left week or two, but it's going to 0:25:40.560 --> 0:25:44.159 move on to you know, the CONTI conversation over environmental 0:25:44.200 --> 0:25:46.919 causes of autism and all the ways in which he 0:25:47.040 --> 0:25:51.280 has really become, you know, very politicized and moving away 0:25:51.320 --> 0:25:54.280 from science and kind of driving our public health policy. 0:25:54.359 --> 0:25:59.280 He's canceled medical research how much and in what areas well? 0:25:59.320 --> 0:26:02.080