1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:04,760 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:09,160 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:19,120 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. Hello, 4 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:20,800 Speaker 1: welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my 5 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:24,159 Speaker 1: name is Noel. They call me Ben, and you are you, 6 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: and this is stuff they don't want you to know. 7 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: We're doing something a little bit different to bend the 8 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: Bookie Bolling, Null Numbers, Brown, Matt is bad at Math, 9 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 1: Frederick Matt Mad Money Frederick. Okay, we want to introduce 10 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: you to a very special guest in this episode. This 11 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 1: is a two part episode about sports fixing, and as 12 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 1: we are not uh, despite our new monikers, as we 13 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 1: are not ourselves experts on sports fixing. No, I haven't 14 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 1: done much gambling at all. I've been to because you know, 15 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 1: two times I watched a football game on TV. Once 16 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 1: it was a date and I was trying to get 17 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 1: in good with this gal and she was a huge 18 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 1: Stanford fan. And I tell you, I sat through that 19 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 1: whole game like a champ, and I almost think maybe 20 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 1: I understand how football works. Putty Simon, Well, we've received 21 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 1: questions for years from you and listeners just like you 22 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: who have asked us to cover something like FIFA or 23 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:33,760 Speaker 1: something like even corruption in sumo wrestling. Uh So, we 24 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 1: were fortunate enough to get an interview with one of 25 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: the world's pre eminent experts on sports fixing, Mr Brian Tooey. Yeah, 26 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:45,040 Speaker 1: Brian has written extensively on the subjects. He has three 27 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: books a Season in the Abyss, The Fixes In and 28 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: Larceny Games, all of which dive deep into the world 29 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 1: of bookmaking organized crime, where the money goes in these scenarios. 30 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 1: And of course the question is what we're seeing legitimate? 31 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: Are these games having their outcomes manipulated by one of 32 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 1: several possible forces. So we'll dive into the first part 33 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 1: of the interview where we get we get a deeper 34 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 1: understanding of how this sort of system would work, a 35 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,799 Speaker 1: look at the history of corruption in sports, and information 36 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 1: about what inspired Brian to again these investigations. Grant, could 37 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 1: you tell the audience and us what inspired you to 38 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: become the world's leading expert on corruption in sports? Well, 39 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 1: it really took off when I realized nobody else seemed 40 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 1: to want to do this job. I mean, I was 41 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:54,919 Speaker 1: really just a fan of professional sports for a long 42 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: time growing up as a kid, you know, a hockey 43 00:02:56,919 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 1: fan to baseball fan, football fan, and what have you. 44 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:03,239 Speaker 1: But as I got older and perhaps a little wiser, 45 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 1: I started noticing what I felt were almost like too 46 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:10,799 Speaker 1: many coincidences that were occurring within these games, within these 47 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,800 Speaker 1: sports that always seemed to benefit the league. And I 48 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:17,080 Speaker 1: came to realize, when the leagues have the ability to 49 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: really control everything that surrounds the games, what prevented them 50 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 1: from controlling what happens within the games. And once I 51 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:27,639 Speaker 1: kind of asked that question of myself and started doing 52 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:30,360 Speaker 1: a little research, it kind of led me down this 53 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 1: path to where I am today. It's interesting that you 54 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: mentioned the way the league figures into all of this, 55 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 1: because obviously there is a whole lot of profits to 56 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: be made in and around professional sports, whether it's the 57 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 1: legal end of it, merchandizing ticket sales, TV deals, things 58 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: like that. We're talking billions and billions of dollars. But 59 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 1: when you really segment it out and you talk about 60 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: just the money that can be made out of sports betting, 61 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: how is all of this generated and what kind of 62 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: figures are we talking here? Well, the professional leagues, the 63 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: four main leagues, the NFL, Major League Baseball, the NHL, 64 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 1: in the NBA make a combined about billion dollars a 65 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 1: year in revenue. And as for the sports gambling end 66 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:17,359 Speaker 1: of things, the problem is is nobody really knows because 67 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 1: of the sports gambling done in the United States today 68 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 1: is done illegally and much of that money is controlled 69 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 1: by organized crime. The state in Nevada, which is the 70 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:30,159 Speaker 1: only place where you can legally bet on single games 71 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:33,119 Speaker 1: and all of these sports, says they account for about 72 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: two to three percent of all the sports gambling done 73 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:39,719 Speaker 1: in the nation and they took in about what was it, 74 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 1: I think about three or four billion dollars on sports betting, 75 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: which means if you extrapolate that number, it means that 76 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: perhaps as much as three to four hundred billion dollars 77 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:56,359 Speaker 1: is being waged in the United States today illegally, but 78 00:04:56,440 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: nobody really knows money. Yeah, that's so much money. So 79 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:06,599 Speaker 1: these guys that are running the books on these in 80 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: these illegal gambling operations, how do they actually make money 81 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 1: on this operation? And moreover, I mean, what's the structure 82 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: of this illegal operation? Like from you know, me being 83 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:20,359 Speaker 1: a joe on the street that wants to you know, 84 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 1: place a bat on a sports game. How do I 85 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:24,919 Speaker 1: go from point A to point B too making or 86 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 1: losing a whole bunch of money. Well that's the scary 87 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:32,280 Speaker 1: part in a way, is most gamblers are recreational gamblers. 88 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: You know, their average Joe is or James, and they 89 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:37,040 Speaker 1: want about twenty bucks or fifty bucks on the game 90 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:39,839 Speaker 1: this weekend or what have you, and they don't realize 91 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 1: that many times when they do bet the twenty or 92 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:44,840 Speaker 1: fifty dollars or hundred dollars or whatever, they can afford 93 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 1: to lose or sometimes can't afford to lose whatever their betting. 94 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 1: Most often those small amounts are being bet with local bookies, 95 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: and they might be guys, people they know, people that 96 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: don't really well know. But the problem is is even 97 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 1: though small bets really get funneled into organized crime, even 98 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 1: if they're kind of gambling with somebody they know or 99 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 1: think they know, because what happens is is local bookies 100 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:11,280 Speaker 1: often get wagers on local teams. Like I live in Wisconsin. 101 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 1: So let's say in this example, most of the bookies 102 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:17,160 Speaker 1: that I perhaps would deal with would take a lot 103 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 1: of bets on the Green Bay Packers in the NFL, 104 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 1: because a lot of people bet with their hearts, they 105 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 1: bet on the home team, they bet on the games 106 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,719 Speaker 1: they're gonna watch. And in Wisconsin, you watch the Green 107 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 1: Bay Packers or you don't watch television really someday. So 108 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:33,919 Speaker 1: the local bookies get overwhelmed with basically Green Bay Packer money, 109 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 1: and that's not good for them, because what most bookies 110 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 1: want is a fifty fifty split on the game they 111 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:43,719 Speaker 1: want bet on the Packers. They want and say, bet 112 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:47,600 Speaker 1: on the Bears, and they collect a ten percent on 113 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 1: the losers. So you have to bet eleven dollars to 114 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 1: win ten dollars. And that's how the bookies make their money. 115 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 1: And that's the big right is that like the concept 116 00:06:58,279 --> 00:06:59,839 Speaker 1: of the VG sort of like a premium that you 117 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:02,839 Speaker 1: have a bigger issue there. Take their rake however you 118 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 1: want to put it. Yeah. So, but what happens is 119 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 1: these local bookies in this case again get overwhelmed with 120 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 1: the money bet on the Packers. So what they want 121 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 1: to do is basically what they call layoff that money 122 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 1: and bet with other bookies, perhaps like in Chicago if 123 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: the Packers are playing the Bears, because the Bear bookies 124 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 1: are gonna have too much money on the bears, and 125 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: so they kind of swap wagers to kind of alleviate their, 126 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 1: you know, exposure on these games. And so what happens 127 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: is little bookies bet with slightly bigger bookies. Bigger bookies 128 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 1: bet with even bigger bookies, and this money almost actually 129 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: funnels upwards and sitting at the top of this pyramid 130 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 1: is organized crime, who have controlled illegal sports gambling for 131 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: probably a hundred years. It's one of those things where 132 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: even though you're betting with somebody you may know and 133 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 1: just somebody think is local, some guy at the bar, 134 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 1: that money gets funneled upwards to people who are running 135 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 1: organized crime. And then people say, well, you know, so 136 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 1: what it's, you know, a harmless crime, it's a victimless crime. 137 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 1: But the fact is that money that feeds organized crimes 138 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 1: then goes to prostitution, that goes to loan sharking, and 139 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: it goes to all the other bad things that organized 140 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: crimes still does today. And just to be specific for 141 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 1: our audience members who may not be as aware of 142 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: the nuts and bolts of this of the betting process, 143 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 1: what is the point spread and why does it matter so? Well? 144 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: The point spread really only matters in mainly in the 145 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 1: NFL and the NBA, or college basketball and college football, 146 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 1: because too often games are almost lopsided. And this really 147 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 1: started way back about a hundred years or so, maybe 148 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 1: in twenties or thirties, where bookies wanted to take bets 149 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 1: on games, on all games that are being played, but 150 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 1: in certain instances, you know, people are almost certain that, 151 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: for example, the Packers are going to beat the Bears. 152 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: You know, almost no matter what happens, that they are 153 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 1: almost certain Packers are going to beat the Bears, and 154 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: the odds that they would have to set on the 155 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 1: game would be so high that nobody want to bet 156 00:08:57,559 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 1: on the Packers because already turn on their money would 157 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 1: be so low. And at the same time, the bookies 158 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 1: who wouldn't want to necessarily give huge odds on the 159 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: Bears to win because then if that miracle of miracle 160 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 1: did happen, so they might have to lay out too 161 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:11,959 Speaker 1: much money to those people who took the long shot. 162 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 1: So over time they developed what's called the point spread, 163 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 1: and the point spread basically kind of even the playing 164 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: field where oftentimes at football, like safe the Packers are 165 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 1: playing the Bears, they might say the Packers are minus seven, 166 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:28,200 Speaker 1: which means that is, you have to subtract seven points 167 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 1: from the Packers at the end of the game and 168 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: or add seven points to the Bears total, and that's 169 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: what the final score wins up being in the betting circles. 170 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 1: So if the Packers won four to ten, you subtract seven, 171 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: which means the Packers really only scored seventeen points. The 172 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 1: Bears would get seven points. But yet that twenty four 173 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:52,360 Speaker 1: to ten differences fourteen points, so it doesn't really come 174 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 1: into play for the point spread. And if you got 175 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 1: the Packers, you won. If you bet the Bears in 176 00:09:56,000 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 1: this example, you would lose. So it's a little convoluted concept. Yeah, 177 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:02,959 Speaker 1: but that's a perfect explanation, absolutely, And I know folks 178 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:04,960 Speaker 1: are probably eager for us to get into the whole 179 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:06,679 Speaker 1: fixing aspect of it, But I do have one more 180 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 1: question about the rules and just sort of the you know, 181 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 1: structure for this betting scenario. Um. I know that, uh 182 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:15,679 Speaker 1: in you in your book Larceny Games, when you're talking 183 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 1: about sort of the history of betting and gambling on 184 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 1: sports and how at its heart it is a simple 185 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:26,080 Speaker 1: prospect of making a fifty fifty bat where you're saying like, 186 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 1: I think it's gonna be this one, and I'm putting 187 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 1: all my eggs in that basket and I'm either gonna 188 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: win or I'm gonna lose. But at the end of 189 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:36,439 Speaker 1: the day, that's not enough to attract enough people to continuously, 190 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:39,320 Speaker 1: you know, keep people in business who want to you know, 191 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 1: make money on this betting. So the bookies came up 192 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: with this idea of odds and they basically created it, 193 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:48,199 Speaker 1: and it's a little bit lopsided, I think from the 194 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 1: way I understanding it, where I'm sure there are stats 195 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 1: that go into determining these odds, but at the end 196 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 1: of the day, it's sort of like, well, you know, 197 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 1: you get more of a return on your money if 198 00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 1: you maybe bet on the underdog and they win. But 199 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 1: I just want to little bit of clarification on how 200 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 1: you see odds playing into this and whether or not 201 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:06,559 Speaker 1: they are based on stats or if it's just kind 202 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 1: of a construct in something that these books sort of 203 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 1: came up with, you know, sweeten the pot. I guess, well, 204 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 1: it's interesting because really odds and even the point spread 205 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 1: are make believe numbers. You know, they don't necessarily reflect 206 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 1: the reality of the game. Or like a boxing match 207 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 1: or horse race, there really artificial numbers, and the point 208 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:29,080 Speaker 1: spread is really almost based from what I understand from 209 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 1: talking to some of these guys who set the point spreads, 210 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 1: is based on their perception of the public perception of 211 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:39,320 Speaker 1: the game that's about to be played. So it's funny 212 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:42,320 Speaker 1: the guys who do like the NFL point spreads, they 213 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 1: can almost doom just off the top of the heads 214 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 1: without looking at computers or statistics or that sort of things. 215 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:51,200 Speaker 1: They just know a lot of betters like certain teams, 216 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 1: they like certain matchups, and they just kind of assumed 217 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:56,680 Speaker 1: that certain games are going to go a certain way. 218 00:11:57,360 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 1: So the guys who are setting the point spreads and 219 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 1: creating a lot of times can just wing it because 220 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:07,680 Speaker 1: it's based off the perception of the public's perception and 221 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 1: not really the bookies perception of what's going to happen 222 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 1: in the game. So if they point set the point spread, 223 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 1: like again in the Packer Bearer game at minus seven, 224 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 1: it doesn't mean that the book he really thinks the 225 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 1: Packers are gonna win seventeen. They may think the Packers 226 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:25,439 Speaker 1: are gonna win thirty five to nothing, but they think 227 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 1: that's what the public thinks is that the game might 228 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:30,559 Speaker 1: be like seventeen matchup. So that's how they create the 229 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 1: point spread. And it's interesting because now we start to 230 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 1: see these frames, these interlocking frames of perception that play 231 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 1: a powerful role, almost as powerful as the actual athletes 232 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 1: in the game. And and this brings us to a 233 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:52,680 Speaker 1: question that I was I was dying to ask after 234 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: we had checked out Larceny Games Season and the abyss 235 00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 1: UH and the fixes in UH, we wanted to ask you, what, 236 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:06,199 Speaker 1: in your opinion, are the easiest and most difficult sports 237 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 1: to fix. Well, you know, the unfortunate thing is I 238 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 1: get asked a lot like what's the least corrup sport? 239 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 1: And unfortunately I can't name one, because you really, if 240 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 1: you do some digging around, you will realize almost every 241 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 1: professional sport has been negatively influenced by some sort of corruption. 242 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 1: I mean you could go soccer, cricket, tennis, rugby, baseball, football, boxing, hockey, 243 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:38,079 Speaker 1: the UFC hors arry scene. I mean, the list goes 244 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:40,960 Speaker 1: on and on, and you can find corruption in terms 245 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: of altering the outcomes of certain events in all of 246 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:45,680 Speaker 1: those things. You can even find it little League baseball. 247 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 1: I've seen it where you know, the Chicago team from 248 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 1: the Little League World Series a couple of years ago 249 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 1: was deemed illegal. Where I think a New York team 250 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 1: a few years ago ahead of Pitcher who was fourteen 251 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 1: and he should have only been twelve and they lied 252 00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 1: about his age. I mean, it's unfortunately everywhere. But in 253 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: terms of your direct question, I think the easiest sports 254 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 1: to manipulate from a fixing angle for betting purposes, one 255 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: is soccer, because it's happening all over the globe and 256 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 1: it's been happening for a very long time and they 257 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 1: can't or maybe they don't, but they can't seem to 258 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 1: stop it. But in America, I think the two biggest 259 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 1: ones to be football and basketball because of that point 260 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 1: spread and the idea of the point spread. And I 261 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 1: can explain why is basically because what people can do 262 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 1: is they can get athletes to what they call shaved points. 263 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 1: Where again, if you go back to that seven point 264 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 1: point spread in that Bear Packer, the fictional Bear Packer game, 265 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: I means you could approach the players or a player 266 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 1: from the Packers and say, hey, look you can still 267 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 1: win the game. You can still beat the Bears. That's fine, 268 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 1: Just don't cover that point spread. Instead of winning by 269 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 1: more than seven, just win by like three points, and 270 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: therefore I can bet the Bears. You can still win 271 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 1: your game. But because the Bears are getting seven points 272 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 1: and they only lost by three in the betting parlance, 273 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 1: they won the game by four. So that's the tricky thing. 274 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 1: And you could do it a lot, and I think 275 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 1: it occurs a lot, especially at the college level in 276 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 1: basketball and football, because of these point spreads where a 277 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: team can still win but yet not covered the point spread, 278 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 1: and that makes it really hard to uncover who really 279 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 1: was giving a percent out there and who maybe was 280 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 1: doing something a little illegal. That's my question. Isn't it 281 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: really difficult to do? It seems like such a precise 282 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 1: thing to influence the outcome of a game just by 283 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 1: a certain number of points based on what you do, 284 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 1: and not have it be completely transparent to anybody watching saying, oh, 285 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 1: that guy totally took a dive there. He screwed up 286 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 1: that play. It was clearly on purpose. Like how do 287 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 1: these It seems like they're a whole another level of 288 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 1: skill required to be able to do this convincingly funny, 289 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 1: he said it like Joan amoth. Back in the late sixties, 290 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 1: he was accused of throwing a couple of football games 291 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 1: because I think twice in the season he threw like 292 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 1: five interceptions within a single game, and he kind of 293 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 1: got fingered for potentially throwing those games. And Joe name was, 294 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: when approached and asked about he said, look, because I 295 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 1: wouldn't be dumb enough to throw five interceptions in the game. 296 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 1: I fixed. What I would do is I would throw 297 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 1: the ball slightly out of the reach of the wide receiver, 298 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: or I, you know, mishandle a snap, or I would 299 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 1: you just do something small that would be imperceptible, and 300 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: that's how it fixed the game. I wouldn't make it 301 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 1: obvious like that, which always found funny because that means 302 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 1: obviously Joe Namath kind of thought about it and how 303 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 1: we would fix the game if need be. But apparently 304 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: he claimed he didn't do it because he would have 305 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 1: made it that obvious. And I mean, there's a guy 306 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 1: by the name of Lefty Rosenthal. He's an old, old guy. 307 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 1: He um. The movie Casino was actually based on Lefty Rosenthal. 308 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: He's a real guy. In the movie. It's played by 309 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 1: Robert de Niro's name is like Ace Rothstein or something 310 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 1: like that, but that's really left the Rosenthal left. Rosenthal 311 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 1: was known to fix games, and he would actually have 312 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 1: college kids college basketball players act as missing layups so 313 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:05,679 Speaker 1: they looked more realistic when they did it. He was 314 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:08,639 Speaker 1: even known to actually supposedly he gave food poisoning to 315 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 1: an entire football team that came into town to play 316 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:15,399 Speaker 1: Northwestern University and he invited the other team out for 317 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:18,119 Speaker 1: dinner and gave him all food poisoning at a restaurant 318 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 1: he was familiar with to make sure he won his bet. So, 319 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 1: I mean, there's there's there's various ways to do this, 320 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 1: but yeah, I mean I think it wouldn't be necessarily 321 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 1: blatantly obvious, although sometimes it very well could be. And yet, 322 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:34,160 Speaker 1: you know, how do you finger somebody for it, because 323 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 1: it could just be somebody's having a bad game, er 324 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 1: an off day. But proved that he did it on purpose, 325 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:41,680 Speaker 1: that's a whole different thing. Yeah, that sounds like it 326 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 1: could quickly go into some subjective murky territory there. It's 327 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 1: very it's very interesting that you bring up the concept 328 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 1: of college athletes, because, as we know, that's a continuing 329 00:17:55,800 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 1: controversy here in the States. Uh, these kids, really, these 330 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 1: students are in a surprisingly vulnerable position, and that led 331 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 1: us to h to ask, not just in the realm 332 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 1: of college sports, but in the realm of professional sports, 333 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 1: how do some athletes become compromised to the point that 334 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:21,360 Speaker 1: they're willing to throw a game or to shave some points? 335 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,200 Speaker 1: And by that we mean, you know, not the ones 336 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:29,120 Speaker 1: who are who get food poisoning, which is diabolical, um, 337 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 1: but but the you know, the ones who purposefully participate 338 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 1: in this kind of uh, this kind of corruption. Well, 339 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: did you guys happen to see that movie that just 340 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:45,160 Speaker 1: came out called Suicide Squad? Yes? I actually did see it. Yes, Okay, 341 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:47,959 Speaker 1: Well there's a scene in there where um Viola Davis, 342 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 1: who's the head of the Suicide Squad, is asked, well, 343 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:53,119 Speaker 1: how do you get all these bad guys to basically 344 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 1: do what you wanted to do? And Harry responsive simple, 345 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: she said, Well, everybody has a weakness, and I exploit 346 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 1: that weakness. And I think that's exactly what can happen 347 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:06,680 Speaker 1: with athletes and with coaches and with referees. I think 348 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 1: a lot of sports fans almost make it disconnect and 349 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 1: almost forget that these are people, and these are people 350 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 1: who are like you and me, people who can have problems, 351 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 1: people who can have gambling problems, who can have drug problems, 352 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 1: who want to use performance enhancing drugs, which is another 353 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 1: sort of drug problem. Who have women problems, We have 354 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:29,119 Speaker 1: men problems, We have all sorts of weaknesses, you know, greed, 355 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:32,680 Speaker 1: I mean, the very real thing for everybody to have 356 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:36,879 Speaker 1: issues with this, with these things. And I think smart 357 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 1: people and we've seen again if you look at soccer 358 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 1: around the world, they've found that those weaknesses within the players, 359 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 1: within the coaches, within the referees, and then exploit them. 360 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: And that's all it takes, is it takes a simple failing. 361 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 1: I mean, I think if you go with college especially 362 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: and I think college is where really people should be looking, 363 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 1: especially United States, with the sort of corruption when you're 364 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 1: not paying like coll ja athlete, and I really don't 365 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 1: necessarily agree that you should pay them, but when you 366 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,120 Speaker 1: don't pay them, and then football player walks out into 367 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 1: a stadium, he's surrounded by a hundred thousand fans, it's 368 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 1: being broadcast to three or four million people at home. 369 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:14,160 Speaker 1: His coach is the highest paid state employee making three 370 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 1: to five million dollars a year. There's people in the 371 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 1: stands wearing this kid's jersey, and yet this kid getting 372 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 1: zero dollars. And then somebody approaches and said, hey, look, 373 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 1: I'll give you ten thousand dollars. Just slightly underperformed, shave 374 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 1: a few points, and make sure this game goes my way. 375 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 1: Oh why would a kid not accept that money. It's 376 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 1: a very easy offer to make, I mean, and I 377 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:39,960 Speaker 1: think it's a very easy offer to accept. Yeah, the 378 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 1: same thing occurred to me earlier, like where you know, 379 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 1: there are kids getting in trouble for selling autographs, for example, 380 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:47,920 Speaker 1: and it's sort of this attitude of well where's mine? 381 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:50,639 Speaker 1: You know, I want something like everyone else is getting paid. 382 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: And I especially if if you're a kid who maybe 383 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 1: had went into like college basketball with dreams of making 384 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:00,040 Speaker 1: the NBA. And the fact of the matter is it 385 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: easier to be elected to Congress than it is to 386 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,920 Speaker 1: make the National Basketball Association. To the player, there's more 387 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:09,439 Speaker 1: members of Congress under our NBA players. And yet if 388 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:11,199 Speaker 1: you went to college with that hope and dream, and 389 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:13,880 Speaker 1: then you know, by your junior year, realized that dream 390 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 1: is not gonna happen because I'm just not that good, 391 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 1: and yet I still got another year of college eligibility. 392 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:21,920 Speaker 1: And again somebody comes a long and says, and it 393 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 1: doesn't have to be that much money. I think I 394 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 1: could have, you know, fixed a college basketball game with 395 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 1: the money I have in my bank accounting and being 396 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 1: a writer, I don't make a lot of money. I think, 397 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 1: you know, you could approach the kids and make them generous, 398 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 1: seemingly generous offers that they would go for, because again, 399 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: when everybody else is out there making money, I think 400 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 1: they assumed that they should be too, So you think 401 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:45,239 Speaker 1: they're almost targeted. Whereas someone that would be trying to 402 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 1: get them to enter into this would see what you're describing, like, oh, 403 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 1: they haven't really been performing incredibly well, they're almost done 404 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,159 Speaker 1: with school. This would be an easy mark for you know, 405 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 1: getting what I want out of this. I think you 406 00:21:57,840 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 1: can do either way. I mean, I've seen in some 407 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 1: of the their FBI files I have related to, you know, 408 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 1: attempting to fix games where it was just a basic, 409 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:08,879 Speaker 1: fled out direct approach like hey kid, you want to 410 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:11,440 Speaker 1: fix a game for me? And then you know I've 411 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 1: we've seen in you know, around again, especially in soccer. 412 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,400 Speaker 1: Soccer is so incredibly corrupt, but we've seen where there 413 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:22,359 Speaker 1: are really organized crime organizations I guess for lack of 414 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 1: better terms, that literally go out and try to target 415 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:28,199 Speaker 1: individuals to get them to fix soccer matches. And so 416 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:31,920 Speaker 1: I wouldn't be surprised if there's a similar organization within 417 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 1: the Highed States that may be doing the very same 418 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:37,679 Speaker 1: thing within n C double A basketball or football and 419 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:42,360 Speaker 1: just looking for weaknesses within certain programs and certain players 420 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:44,359 Speaker 1: and targeting them and trying to get them to do 421 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 1: what they wanted to do. Because again, when there's perhaps 422 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 1: three to four hundred billion dollars being wagered and no 423 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 1: one there's no oversight over it, nobody's watching over it, 424 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,440 Speaker 1: there's a lot of room to fudge figures and make 425 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:58,440 Speaker 1: some easy money if no one's gonna, you know, come 426 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 1: after you for doing it, know, brand maybe this is 427 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:05,920 Speaker 1: the most frightening thing here. Our show examines a lot 428 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:09,919 Speaker 1: of allegations, a lot of theories, and a lot of 429 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 1: proof of skull duggery, and to me personally, the most 430 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,640 Speaker 1: frightening thing about this situation is that, you know, we're 431 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,880 Speaker 1: using the phrase organized crime and what we're looking at 432 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 1: an action seems to be institutionalized crime. Uh with the 433 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 1: by which I mean the level of reach and organization 434 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:37,920 Speaker 1: seems far far beyond what the average fan thinks, uh 435 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:42,880 Speaker 1: they're buying into when they make that or six dollar bet. Well, 436 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 1: I think you're right, because I don't Again, I think 437 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,959 Speaker 1: a lot of fans they put on a fan hat 438 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 1: and when they put on their jersey and they watch TV, 439 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:56,959 Speaker 1: they kind of disconnect from the reality of everything, the 440 00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,639 Speaker 1: reality the players, the reality of the gambling that surrounds 441 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:03,119 Speaker 1: at the reality the media control surrounding it all. And 442 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 1: I think they just watched the game and assume what 443 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 1: happens on the game lives up to every cliche that's 444 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:10,679 Speaker 1: out there, you know, be the player wants to give 445 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 1: and take it to the next level, and all those things. 446 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,119 Speaker 1: I don't think fans are necessarily rational while they're watching 447 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 1: these sports, and so they don't recognize all the threats 448 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 1: and all the real possibilities that surround these games that 449 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:27,880 Speaker 1: may be influencing and are corrupting the outcome of what 450 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 1: they think is a true athletic competition. And I think 451 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 1: there's so many variables that can influence these games, that 452 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 1: it's something that really should be looked at closer and 453 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,440 Speaker 1: not just be assumed that it is all these cliches 454 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 1: that are spouted week after week. And I want to 455 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 1: take it back just for a second and look at 456 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 1: some of the historical examples that will kind of give 457 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 1: a framework for our listeners to really see how this 458 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: stuff started occurring. Um, one of the big ones that 459 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,719 Speaker 1: we found in the fixes in is the Black Sox, 460 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:04,520 Speaker 1: if you want to talk a little bit about that, 461 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 1: the nineteen nineteen World Series and just kind of tell 462 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 1: us that story and then maybe give us a few 463 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 1: more examples historically of of fixing. But here's the funny thing. 464 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 1: I mean, you guys probably might remember the answer to 465 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 1: these questions, but let me ask you a couple of 466 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 1: quick questions. So the Black Sox scandals you just said 467 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 1: took place in nine and that was the last time, supposedly, 468 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 1: according to Major League Baseball, a baseball game has been fixed. Okay, 469 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,720 Speaker 1: that's nearly a hundred years now at this point. So 470 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,720 Speaker 1: when was the last time National Hockey League game was 471 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:41,440 Speaker 1: admittedly fixed by the league? Oh? Boy, without without going 472 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 1: to Google, I don't know that I can sufficiently answer that, Well, 473 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:46,719 Speaker 1: the NHL was supposedly like in the nineties. I think 474 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 1: it was like six was the last time they said 475 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 1: the game was fixed? So when was the last time 476 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:58,360 Speaker 1: that an NBA game was fixed? Last season? I don't 477 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: know that would be my answer, but yeah, what they claim. Yeah, 478 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:07,160 Speaker 1: I've just as a sidebar here for the listeners. Uh, Brian, 479 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:09,640 Speaker 1: if you're okay with it, I would like to point 480 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:13,680 Speaker 1: everybody to uh your website the fixes in dot net 481 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 1: because in the course for research, we saw some fantastic 482 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:23,439 Speaker 1: uh modern articles. Um that will get into a little 483 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 1: bit later, but as soon as as soon as you 484 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,119 Speaker 1: had asked about the NHL, I went directly to it 485 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:33,440 Speaker 1: and I thought, oh, he's got to have something on this. So, yeah, 486 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,439 Speaker 1: what do you do you believe that the uh that 487 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 1: the NBA was fixed last season? Well, we can get 488 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,720 Speaker 1: into that, but my opinion would be definitely yes. I mean, 489 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 1: I think one of the main things I try to 490 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:47,679 Speaker 1: point out to people because this is kind of a 491 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 1: different end of the fixing now that we're talking about, 492 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 1: and I think games are fixed for organized crime and 493 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,679 Speaker 1: gambling purposes, and I look into that research that and 494 00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,359 Speaker 1: at the same time, I think games are fixed by 495 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,679 Speaker 1: the league of them selves for entertainment purposes and for 496 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:07,199 Speaker 1: television and advertising purposes. And I mean, I think the 497 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 1: same the same you know, the same processes that can 498 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,719 Speaker 1: be used for fixing games for gambling reasons can be 499 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,119 Speaker 1: used to fix games for the league's reasons. And I 500 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,399 Speaker 1: think the NBA certainly manipulated their own games. And the 501 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 1: scary part, the scariest part of all, is that it 502 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 1: is not illegal for league like the NBA to fix 503 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 1: its own game. There's no law that prevents that, right, 504 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:36,320 Speaker 1: which is fascinating because in your book you you have 505 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 1: mentioned in the fixes in I believe it is you've 506 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:44,680 Speaker 1: mentioned a couple of laws that come kind of close, right, 507 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,440 Speaker 1: like the quiz Show law or the or the Sports 508 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:52,360 Speaker 1: Bribery Act of nine four. So what makes them close 509 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 1: but not, uh, you know, not on the money enough 510 00:27:56,240 --> 00:28:00,640 Speaker 1: to actually enforce, you know, what they purport to enforce. Well, 511 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 1: the quick show law came first, and I came in 512 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:04,719 Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties out of the quiz show scandals. If 513 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 1: anybody ever saw that movie corrected by Robert Redford, that's 514 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:11,880 Speaker 1: a true story. The television networks, basically we're fixing their 515 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,399 Speaker 1: game shows. And for the same reason I claimed the 516 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:16,680 Speaker 1: like the NFL or the NBA is fixing your own games, 517 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 1: they were fixing their own game shows to make it 518 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:22,440 Speaker 1: more entertaining, to drive up ratings, to make people more 519 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,879 Speaker 1: interested in what was going on. And there was a 520 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,480 Speaker 1: whistleblower from within one of the game shows who feel 521 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 1: who felt to get screwed basically by the network, and 522 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 1: he turned them in and Congress investigated, and out of 523 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,960 Speaker 1: this investigation came this realization that yeah, they were fixing 524 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 1: the game shows to make it more interesting. And so 525 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 1: a lot was produced and it was basically called the 526 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 1: Quick Show Law. But that just covers intellectual contests or 527 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 1: contests of chance, which chance would be like you know, 528 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 1: rolling the dice or you know, the wheel of fortune 529 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 1: is a kind of chance thing. But so you can't 530 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:59,480 Speaker 1: fix intellectual contests for television. But that doesn't cover physical 531 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:03,160 Speaker 1: contests like a sport, and nobody I think what's called 532 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:05,520 Speaker 1: sport a chance. You know, you won't call football game 533 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 1: a game a chance. You'd call poker maybe a game 534 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 1: of chance, but not football dice. You might call a 535 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,000 Speaker 1: game chance, but not basketball. I know people that would 536 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,240 Speaker 1: be upset about the poker being a game of chance. Yeah, 537 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 1: I know that was probably a bad example, trying to 538 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 1: blow right past, but but basically that's what the quation 539 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 1: a lot covers is mainly intellectual contests, not physical ones. 540 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 1: And then at the same time, in nineteen sixty four, 541 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,720 Speaker 1: Congress passed the Sports Bribery Act, which made it illegal 542 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: for someone to bribe player, a coach, or a referee 543 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 1: to alter the outcome of a game. Amazingly, that wasn't 544 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 1: a federal crime before nine to fix a game, um, 545 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 1: but after nineteen sixty four was illegal. But that's a bribe. Now, 546 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:51,120 Speaker 1: if the NBA tells its referees, the employer tells its 547 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 1: employees how to do their job, and that may alter 548 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 1: the outcome of a game, well that's not anybody being bribed. 549 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:00,200 Speaker 1: That's just someone telling you how to do your up 550 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 1: and you go out in the court and do your job, 551 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 1: and maybe that alters the outcome of a game, and 552 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 1: maybe it doesn't. But the fact of the matter is 553 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 1: that doesn't make it illegal. So the closest thing is 554 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 1: fraud that this may cover. But even fraud doesn't cover it. 555 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 1: Because when New York Jets fans sued the New England 556 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 1: Patriots over to Spygates scandal. That's part of like a 557 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 1: class action lawsuit. They ultimately lost in The court ruled 558 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 1: that look, when you buy a ticket to a game, 559 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 1: if you buy a ticket to an NFL game, the 560 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 1: team just basically has to provide a football game to you. 561 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:34,760 Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be played under any certain rules. 562 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 1: Certain athletes don't have to perform or perform up to 563 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 1: a certain level. It doesn't mean a team can't cheat. 564 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 1: You paid to see football game. They provided a football game. 565 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:48,960 Speaker 1: End of story. So there's really no law that covers 566 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 1: this in terms of a league fixing its own game 567 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 1: and making it illegal. It's not a crime because it 568 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 1: is simply entertainment. And the leagues will tell you that 569 00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 1: their entertainment right legal legally they are, which which when 570 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:04,960 Speaker 1: we learned about this, this may come as a blue 571 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 1: to die hard sports fans across the league's um. Well, 572 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 1: we learned about this, this kind of ruling would essentially 573 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 1: render UH sports leagues more on the level of wrestling 574 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 1: than it would for what they're proceved as. Is that correct? 575 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,600 Speaker 1: Oh very much so. And the funny thing is is ESPN, 576 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,560 Speaker 1: you know the Worldwide leader in Sports. They now cover 577 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 1: professional wrestling regularly. In fact, they have a special section 578 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,719 Speaker 1: on their web page for professional wrestling. So, I mean 579 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 1: the outline is getting more and more blurred every day. 580 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 1: I'm sorry. Are you guys implying that professional wrestling isn't real? No? Oh, 581 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 1: we've done it. No, No, it's real. Guys killing me here, 582 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 1: crushing my dreams. We thought it was best that you 583 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 1: learned this way with an expert. Appreciate it right for me? Um, Well, 584 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 1: what are the consequences of people getting caught, whether it's 585 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 1: a player or an official. Maybe there's betting involved, or 586 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 1: someone has, you know, used a position of influence to 587 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:11,600 Speaker 1: for a personal game. What's the problem is nobody's gotten 588 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 1: caught that was bringing up earlier, you know, the nineteen 589 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 1: nineteen White Sox. Last time it's supposedly happened in baseball 590 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 1: ninety for the NHL, like early nineteen fifties, I think 591 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 1: it was fifty four for the NBA, and the NFL 592 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 1: claims that's never happened once in its entire existence that 593 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 1: someone tried to or someone did fix the outcome of 594 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: a football game. So nobody's gotten caught for this crime 595 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 1: in the United States except for college athletes. Okay, in 596 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:42,320 Speaker 1: certain colleges like Boston College, Cleedo, University of San Diego, 597 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 1: Northwestern there's been a few, but not a lot. Now 598 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 1: the scary part is to me is again, you look 599 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:52,480 Speaker 1: outside the United States, there's soccer match fixing at every level. 600 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 1: We know that World Cup soccer matches, which is the 601 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 1: most watched, most popular sporting event in the world. We 602 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 1: know soccer matches have been fixed in the World Cup, 603 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:05,400 Speaker 1: we know it. We know the Indian Cricket League, which 604 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 1: is their national sport, is in the most corrupt leagues 605 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 1: in the world. We know rugby in um what is 606 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,600 Speaker 1: it in Australia has been fixed. We know baseball in 607 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 1: China has been fixed. I mean, we know sumu wrestling corrupted. 608 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:22,080 Speaker 1: We know there's corruption everywhere else around the world, but 609 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:24,800 Speaker 1: supposedly here in the United States it just doesn't happen. 610 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 1: And I don't believe that for one single you know, uh, 611 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 1: we're tempted to agree with you there, because when we 612 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:37,320 Speaker 1: talk about athletes being caught cheating, or when we talk 613 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:41,720 Speaker 1: about the game being somehow compromised, the only real coverage 614 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:45,160 Speaker 1: of it in the contemporary world is uh, you know, 615 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:49,920 Speaker 1: an individual athlete in most cases uh doping or taking 616 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:54,440 Speaker 1: performance enhancing drugs. So it seems like what's happening here 617 00:33:55,000 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 1: is a vast revenue stream for organized crime that is 618 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:04,360 Speaker 1: going from the street level to the top and then 619 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 1: later global. And as as you said, this is occurring today, 620 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 1: is it occurring more or less or has it always 621 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:17,520 Speaker 1: been the same and just unacknowledged. Well, I think it's 622 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 1: I think it has really been acknowledged. I think more 623 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 1: it's been brought to light, especially like in soccer and 624 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:25,440 Speaker 1: with the corruption that was in FIFA and even the 625 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 1: International Olympic Committee to a certain extent, I think it's 626 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 1: come more to light, so more people are looking at it. 627 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:34,399 Speaker 1: And at the same time, the more people that seem 628 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:36,879 Speaker 1: to look at the more they realize that they're having 629 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,439 Speaker 1: a very hard time preventing it because it's such an 630 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 1: easy crime to do, and yet it's a very hard 631 00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 1: crime to prove to get someone taken away and thrown 632 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:48,279 Speaker 1: in jail for it. Although it has happened. I mean, 633 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:52,000 Speaker 1: like the Italian soccer league Serie A is incredibly corrupt. 634 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 1: It's been corrupted from the players all the way up 635 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:57,839 Speaker 1: to the owners and guys have been arrested and thrown 636 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:00,719 Speaker 1: in jail for fixing matches and all sorts of bad 637 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,080 Speaker 1: behavior there. Yet you know, I think it was Fox 638 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 1: Sports paid them a few million dollars so they could 639 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:07,839 Speaker 1: broadcast it here in the United States. And does Fox 640 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:11,160 Speaker 1: Sports ever talk about that corruption. Of course not, it 641 00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 1: doesn't happen. But I mean, they're the problem with it. 642 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:16,799 Speaker 1: And the why no one I think has ever been 643 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,120 Speaker 1: really caught for to the professional level here in the 644 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,400 Speaker 1: United States is how do you prove it? There is 645 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:24,879 Speaker 1: no concrete evidence. And from the four hundred some odd 646 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 1: files I obtained the Freeman of Information Act from the 647 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 1: FBI related to this, the FBI can't prove these things 648 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 1: have gone on. Yet they had great evidence. I mean, 649 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:36,719 Speaker 1: they would talk to what they called top echelon informants, 650 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,959 Speaker 1: which are really the high up mafia informants who worked 651 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 1: with bookies. It would say this bookie is working with 652 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,400 Speaker 1: this player and they're going to fix this game, and 653 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,319 Speaker 1: sure enough, the game would end and exactly the way 654 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:50,480 Speaker 1: the informants said it was going to end. But that 655 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,279 Speaker 1: didn't prove that the game was fixed. You know, you 656 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,319 Speaker 1: can't go to court off of that. So where's your 657 00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 1: concrete evidence unless somebody admits to committing a federal crime, 658 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:01,279 Speaker 1: which it's gonna be hard to do if you don't 659 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:02,960 Speaker 1: have evidence of it or you didn't get it on 660 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:05,040 Speaker 1: a wire tap or some sort of recording of it. 661 00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 1: You know, nothing's written down, it's not written on league letterhead, 662 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:12,080 Speaker 1: it's not written you know, it's there's no evidence for 663 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:14,919 Speaker 1: this sort of thing. So the FBI got very frustrated 664 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,880 Speaker 1: in investigating these things because of that lack of evidence. 665 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 1: And that's why the leagues can say this has never happened, 666 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,760 Speaker 1: because no one's ever been caught and convicted of it happening. 667 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,759 Speaker 1: But that doesn't necessarily make it true. It just makes 668 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:29,520 Speaker 1: it true to their you know, proof of evidence. There. 669 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:32,680 Speaker 1: I think they're wrapping up some of the more historical 670 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:38,560 Speaker 1: background of sports fixing and bookmaking. I'm kind of interested in, 671 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 1: you know, at its most basic level, how did the 672 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 1: mob originally start getting into this and start kind of 673 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,680 Speaker 1: looking for easy targets as far as which sports to fix, 674 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,200 Speaker 1: Like I I picture boxing is being one because you 675 00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:56,959 Speaker 1: can just you know, offer somebody a lot of money 676 00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:59,480 Speaker 1: or threaten somebody's family, things like that. But can you 677 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:00,960 Speaker 1: kind of just it out a little bit about like 678 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:04,239 Speaker 1: how this started, how it kind of ballooned into what 679 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,399 Speaker 1: we see now in more modern times. Well, it's hard 680 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 1: to say, really because, like I said, I think a 681 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:12,719 Speaker 1: lot of it was easy money. I mean, bookmaking in 682 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 1: many ways is pretty much easy money because most of 683 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,480 Speaker 1: the time, the public is wrong when they make a bet, 684 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:21,480 Speaker 1: you know, I mean they really are. I mean a 685 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:24,320 Speaker 1: lot of people almost make more money betting against the 686 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 1: way the general public is betting on a game, because 687 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,520 Speaker 1: more often than not, the general public is wrong. So 688 00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 1: I mean most it's very hard to find a bookie 689 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:34,759 Speaker 1: who went out of business because the clients were too 690 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,760 Speaker 1: good and winning too often. So I mean to get into, 691 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:40,640 Speaker 1: you know, bookmaking, and like I say, organized crime has 692 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:43,759 Speaker 1: been in it for a hundred years or more. It's 693 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,240 Speaker 1: because more often than not, the people who are betting 694 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:50,440 Speaker 1: lose over a period of time. So that's why I 695 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:52,880 Speaker 1: think it's easy for them to go into the business 696 00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:55,719 Speaker 1: and make money. In terms of fixing, I mean, it's 697 00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:57,880 Speaker 1: it's kind of nice to have a sure thing. And 698 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:00,839 Speaker 1: I think if you know that athletes are betting with you, 699 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:02,759 Speaker 1: you can compromise him if you know, athletes have a 700 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:04,960 Speaker 1: drug problem and you're the ones applying the drugs, you 701 00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:07,000 Speaker 1: can compromise them. I mean that there's just ways to 702 00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:10,080 Speaker 1: compromise athletes. And that's the way the mob I think, 703 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:12,520 Speaker 1: has made its money for throughout its history is finding 704 00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 1: the weaknesses with the people and exploiting them. And it's 705 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:18,320 Speaker 1: funny you bring up boxing because most people don't realize that. 706 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:21,799 Speaker 1: Like for boxing, between the late forties and early sixties, 707 00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:26,799 Speaker 1: really one mobster controlled pretty much all of boxing, and 708 00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:30,640 Speaker 1: I mean literally controlled it. He determined many times who 709 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,440 Speaker 1: would fight, who where they would fight, and oftentimes who 710 00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:35,720 Speaker 1: would win and who would lose, and he would always 711 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,719 Speaker 1: get a cut of that money. But I mean, boxing 712 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:42,399 Speaker 1: is actually what made television, believe it or not. Who 713 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:47,760 Speaker 1: television became into the name was Frankie Carbo and Frankie 714 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:51,200 Speaker 1: Carbon basically controlled boxing. He worked with two guys who 715 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:54,080 Speaker 1: helped found the NHL, Arthur Wertz, whose family still owns 716 00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:56,919 Speaker 1: the black Hawks today, and James Norris, who the Norris 717 00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:59,440 Speaker 1: Trophy is named after his father, who owned the Detroit 718 00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:02,359 Speaker 1: Red Wings. He worked with those two guys to put 719 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:05,400 Speaker 1: boxing events in the arenas because they controlled Medison Square 720 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:08,839 Speaker 1: Garden in Chicago, Stadium, Olympia Stadium in Detroit, and St. 721 00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:13,080 Speaker 1: Louis Arena, and he Carbo worked with those two guys 722 00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:15,840 Speaker 1: put on boxing events and those arenas, and they sold 723 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:18,440 Speaker 1: it the CBS and NBC is Wednesday and Friday night 724 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:24,520 Speaker 1: fights and those events really helped make television a must 725 00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:27,360 Speaker 1: see thing. And it's I mean, it's pretty amazing that 726 00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:31,439 Speaker 1: really those three guys really helped influence television and made 727 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:33,880 Speaker 1: it something that everybody had to see because boxing was 728 00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:38,239 Speaker 1: such popular in those fifties and early sixties, and yet 729 00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,880 Speaker 1: it was controlled by organized crime the entire time. So 730 00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:59,200 Speaker 1: thank you, Ma for cable television. Yes, thank you for cable. Mobsters. Um, 731 00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:02,879 Speaker 1: I you mean we've we've lived with cable. We grew 732 00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:05,799 Speaker 1: up with cable. I'm a cord cutter I am now, 733 00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:10,400 Speaker 1: But what from the night from the eighties up until 734 00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:12,759 Speaker 1: a couple of years ago, I had that cable like 735 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:19,640 Speaker 1: directly attached to my heart, intravenously pumping content into your bloodstream. 736 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:23,120 Speaker 1: And right now, ladies and gentlemen, you're with us in 737 00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:27,760 Speaker 1: a moment outside of time, because we've taken a break, 738 00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:30,399 Speaker 1: we can tell you that behind the scenes, Noel, Matt 739 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:34,360 Speaker 1: and I realized that we were not going to be 740 00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:37,279 Speaker 1: able to fit this entire interview into a single episode, 741 00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:39,960 Speaker 1: so we knew we would have to split it. And 742 00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:44,640 Speaker 1: this is us traveling into our past, which I guess 743 00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:47,919 Speaker 1: is you were present now. Uh, podcasting plays with time 744 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:50,040 Speaker 1: that way. We're so high on the spice right now. Yeah, 745 00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:53,359 Speaker 1: we're so high on the spice right now that we 746 00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:58,000 Speaker 1: are going to take some time. We're gonna head out 747 00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:00,239 Speaker 1: of here and we'll be back next week at the 748 00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:05,480 Speaker 1: second half of the interview. But while while we're still here, 749 00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:08,480 Speaker 1: while it's still uh, the three amigos in the studio, 750 00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:11,719 Speaker 1: I have to have to ask you, guys, what are 751 00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:14,720 Speaker 1: you thinking so far about this, about this weird connection 752 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:19,600 Speaker 1: with the mafia, and about uh, Brian's Brian's statement that 753 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:23,680 Speaker 1: pretty much all sports are ripped. So far, I'm pretty convinced, 754 00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:26,560 Speaker 1: I would have to say, But you know, maybe it's 755 00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:29,400 Speaker 1: just because Brian's convincing. I don't know. It seems like 756 00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:32,480 Speaker 1: after reading the material then hearing him talk about it 757 00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:36,680 Speaker 1: so openly and frankly, I mean, he's a very matter 758 00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:38,239 Speaker 1: of fact about it, and just it kind of just 759 00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:40,520 Speaker 1: speaks about it like a foregone conclusion, and not to 760 00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:44,720 Speaker 1: say that that means it's true, but in my mind, 761 00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:48,160 Speaker 1: with all of the cases of sports fixing that we've 762 00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:50,920 Speaker 1: we do know about in other parts of the world, 763 00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:54,560 Speaker 1: it just seems kind of naive to think that, you know, 764 00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:56,680 Speaker 1: with all that there is to gain from this, whether 765 00:41:56,719 --> 00:42:01,040 Speaker 1: it's TV deals, whether it's you know, big money bets 766 00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:03,880 Speaker 1: and organized crime, that this is not in fact happening 767 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:07,760 Speaker 1: on some level in professional sports. I just I don't. 768 00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:10,920 Speaker 1: I can't buy that they're so squeaky clean. Also, given 769 00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:14,520 Speaker 1: these doping scandals that we always see uncovered and have 770 00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:17,239 Speaker 1: been you know, for a long time now, how how 771 00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:20,000 Speaker 1: can we accept that that is a thing that happens, 772 00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:21,920 Speaker 1: that people are willing to go to those lengths, but 773 00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:24,920 Speaker 1: not the ones that Brian describes. So I'm kind of 774 00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:27,080 Speaker 1: with you on that map. Yeah he did. He did 775 00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:30,520 Speaker 1: an excellent job I think building a case, uh so far, 776 00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:36,120 Speaker 1: you know, at least providing motive. So listeners, hope you 777 00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:39,160 Speaker 1: enjoyed this episode as much as we're enjoying making it. 778 00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:42,120 Speaker 1: That's a tall order, as you said on Facebook Live 779 00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:47,520 Speaker 1: from earlier, but the journey is not over yet. Uh 780 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:50,799 Speaker 1: If you're looking for something else to check out while 781 00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:54,719 Speaker 1: you're waiting for the conclusion to this interview, which will 782 00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:57,120 Speaker 1: come out next week. Uh, then why not head over 783 00:42:57,200 --> 00:42:58,960 Speaker 1: to stuff they Don't Want You to Know dot com, 784 00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:01,000 Speaker 1: where you can check out every audio podcasts we have 785 00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:06,759 Speaker 1: ever done, along with so many of our videos. And 786 00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:08,960 Speaker 1: if you want to read more from Brian, you can 787 00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:11,440 Speaker 1: check out his side of the Fixes in dot net, 788 00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:13,760 Speaker 1: where you can see info on how to get ahold 789 00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:17,000 Speaker 1: of his books, the Fixes in Larceny Games, a season 790 00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:19,360 Speaker 1: in the abyss not to be confused with the Slayer 791 00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:21,920 Speaker 1: album Seasons in the abyss um and he's got a 792 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:24,720 Speaker 1: really it's it's a very telling little tagline on his page. 793 00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:30,640 Speaker 1: Here would you leave a multibillion dollar business up to chance? Oh? 794 00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:34,680 Speaker 1: Good question. And of course, if you have a suggestion 795 00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:37,360 Speaker 1: for an upcoming episode, or you want to see some 796 00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:39,840 Speaker 1: of the stuff we do that doesn't make it to 797 00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:43,720 Speaker 1: the podcast, like you may have heard me mentioned Facebook Live, well, 798 00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:46,239 Speaker 1: you can visit us on Facebook and Twitter where we 799 00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:49,120 Speaker 1: are conspiracy Stuff. You can find us on Instagram where 800 00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:56,160 Speaker 1: Conspiracy Stuff show. And uh, if you're feeling particularly gregarious, generous, charitable, 801 00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:59,040 Speaker 1: if you feel like you need to give back. If 802 00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:01,719 Speaker 1: today is your day to do a good deed, then 803 00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:04,399 Speaker 1: why not drop us a review on iTunes? And many 804 00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:06,799 Speaker 1: of you have since the last time I checked. There 805 00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:09,680 Speaker 1: have been some nice reviews, some not so nice ones too, 806 00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:12,320 Speaker 1: But you know what, we take the good with the bad, folks, 807 00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:18,759 Speaker 1: and we really appreciate your support. Yeah, it's good, we 808 00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:22,320 Speaker 1: want it all. It's an objectivity. Um. But yeah, you 809 00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:24,800 Speaker 1: can do that on iTunes, You can do that on Stitcher, 810 00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:26,439 Speaker 1: there are any place that you can get the show 811 00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:30,319 Speaker 1: and you have the ability to review us, please do 812 00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:32,520 Speaker 1: It helps the algorithm and help people find out about 813 00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:35,399 Speaker 1: the show and keeps us from getting fired. The very 814 00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:38,000 Speaker 1: last thing. I know some people have kind of tune 815 00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:40,000 Speaker 1: out when we're at the end. Then we're like, this 816 00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:42,279 Speaker 1: is like the credits rolling right and we're saying all 817 00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:45,680 Speaker 1: this this other stuff. Two thirds of us are going 818 00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:48,520 Speaker 1: to be in New York next week, New York City, 819 00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:51,640 Speaker 1: just like in the salsa commercials, that's a deep cut. 820 00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:54,359 Speaker 1: Do you think anyone remembers that one in my New 821 00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:59,360 Speaker 1: York City? Yeah? Pekanti, Yeah, wow, they got they got you? 822 00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:02,960 Speaker 1: Huh say got me too, I guess. But we're going 823 00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:04,680 Speaker 1: to be up there, Nolan, I are gonna be up 824 00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:06,640 Speaker 1: in New York. Matt's gonna be holding down the Fort 825 00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:09,000 Speaker 1: in Atlanta. If you want to hang out with us, 826 00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:11,759 Speaker 1: drop us. A line will be uh to and fro, 827 00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:15,640 Speaker 1: hither and yon all across the Fair Metropolis. But yeah, 828 00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:18,160 Speaker 1: I mean seriously, if enough of you guys are interested, 829 00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:21,239 Speaker 1: we'll set up a time, or we can all meet 830 00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:23,319 Speaker 1: up and hang for a bit. So when louis all 831 00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:25,040 Speaker 1: of this other stuff, if you want to get in 832 00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:27,359 Speaker 1: touch with us without going on social media or doing 833 00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:29,120 Speaker 1: any of those things, are going to New York. But 834 00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:31,520 Speaker 1: we're going to New York. But hey, why not book 835 00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:35,000 Speaker 1: a flight right now? Um, you can write us an email. 836 00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:57,640 Speaker 1: We are conspiracy at how stuff works dot com