1 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You. From how Supports 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen 3 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:18,239 Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline, and today we are going to swear. 4 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:22,079 Speaker 1: It's gonna be the most swearing podcast in the history 5 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: of stuff Mom Never told you bitches. That's right, I 6 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: got it out of the way. Yeah, get out of 7 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: the way. We're not swearing just willy nilly. We're very 8 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: specifically swearing, yes, because this episode is all about the 9 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:40,240 Speaker 1: word bitch. And we figured since we have cited Bitch 10 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: magazine so many times on the podcast, we can say bitch. 11 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: We we have said that, we've done the whole it 12 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:51,880 Speaker 1: rhymes with a witch thing so many times on the podcast. 13 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: But you know what where we can say it now? Yeah, 14 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: I mean if people can say it on evening television shows, yeah, 15 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: then so can we. This is a prime time podcast. 16 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 1: So one of the reasons why we've been thinking about 17 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: bitch and bitches, which, by the way, Caroline, I feel 18 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 1: I got a little bit not saying it already so 19 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 1: many times on the podcast. And hey, if anyone wants 20 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: to go ahead and make it a drinking game, um, 21 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,960 Speaker 1: because we're gonna say bitch a lot. Uh and it 22 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:28,039 Speaker 1: speaking of drinking games, it will be preferable if it's 23 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:31,399 Speaker 1: a pumpkin spice latte drinking game. Because the reason we 24 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 1: have really been thinking about it is because of the 25 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:40,120 Speaker 1: basic bitch. She has brought bitch back into the forefront 26 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 1: of our pop cultural vernacular. But she's not such a 27 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 1: new bitch in town, but now we just have a 28 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 1: label for her. Yeah. I was actually I feel like 29 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 1: I've said this on the podcast before, but I'm so 30 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 1: far removed from like pop culture stuff of the day, 31 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: So I actually did not hear the term basic bitch 32 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: until I was perusing Twitter one day and somebody pointed 33 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: out that Marie Claire had called out Lauren Conrad for 34 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 1: being a basic bitch. And I was like, I what, 35 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:16,080 Speaker 1: I don't know, why is everyone upset? What's happening? So 36 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 1: I went to Marie Claire saw this division because at 37 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: first I was like, well, did they just have a 38 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: problem with her? Like, what's the issue? It was an 39 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: entire section and Marie Claire dedicated to talking about types 40 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: of women that they didn't like, and there were all 41 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:36,920 Speaker 1: different types of women who were stupid or you would 42 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 1: want to avoid for various reasons, but the Basic Bitch 43 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:42,919 Speaker 1: was one of them, and Lauren Conrad was their poster child. 44 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: I do agree that Lauren Conrad is basic, but it's 45 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 1: kind of funny that l C from Laguna Beach. Um, 46 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 1: if anyone watched that back in high school like I did, 47 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: that she is sort of a poster child for the 48 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:04,400 Speaker 1: Basic Bitch. Because basic bitches really got their start in 49 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 1: hip hop. Um it's first mentioned an Urban Dictionary appeared 50 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 1: in and it was more a thing of uh dudes 51 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 1: talking about basic bitches is like women they would not 52 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 1: want to go out with. Maybe they'd have sex with them, 53 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: I don't know, but they surely wouldn't tell anyone about them. 54 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 1: But then it was really Crashan in two thousand eleven 55 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 1: with her hit Gucci Gucci that brought Basic Bitch into 56 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 1: the mainstream because she wraps all about how she doesn't 57 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 1: like basic bitches because they just wear what they think 58 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: they should, like Gucci. But but I mean, like, I'd 59 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 1: just like to to bring myself up again because I 60 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 1: like how this song came out in twenty eleven Kristen, 61 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 1: and it took until toward the end of for me 62 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 1: to be like, oh, that's a thing, Caroline, I don't 63 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 1: know if that makes you basic or something beyond basic. 64 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: I'm a triple B. So today, a few years down 65 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: the line, basic bitches could be defined by the people 66 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 1: who use the term basic bitches. Okay, so keep that 67 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 1: in mind as women who enjoy mediocre things, and mediocre 68 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: in the sense of you know what these cooler people 69 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 1: who can even label other people as basic would consider mediocre, 70 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 1: such as on trend retail fashions, particularly Starbucks, pumpkin spice lattes, 71 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:33,280 Speaker 1: and just general pop culture, especially Taylor Swift. I mean 72 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: she's she's Lauren Conrad. I mean that's sort of that 73 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:37,839 Speaker 1: sort of sums it up. But I gotta say though, 74 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: when it comes to the basic bitch, her her calling 75 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 1: cards are the latte is, also yoga pants, people on tops, 76 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 1: the color pink, long hair, enjoying sex in the city, 77 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: all of which, Caroline, I'm going to admit right now, 78 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:58,720 Speaker 1: those are things present in my life that I do enjoy. Um. Yeah, 79 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 1: I wear people on p bowl I do, all right. 80 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 1: Do I feel a little strange about it sometimes because 81 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:06,159 Speaker 1: it is like wearing a tiny dress that comes down 82 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: to your hip bones. Yes, um, but on top of that. 83 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:14,239 Speaker 1: There's also and this is my favorite aspect of basic 84 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: bitchery is Marilyn Roe quotes Marilyn Monroe probably never said 85 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:21,360 Speaker 1: so it just starts to get a little snarky. It's 86 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 1: nearly getting snarky. It's it's super snark. And while I 87 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 1: was surprised at the meanness with which Marie Claire treated 88 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:33,480 Speaker 1: Lauren Conrad, I do appreciate snark. I just, you know, 89 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 1: have to roll my eyes at some of this sometimes. 90 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:40,119 Speaker 1: But Narene Malone over at The Cut was writing about 91 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 1: how this whole basic bitch thing is actually a misogynistic 92 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 1: insult that serves to uphold a male hierarchy of culture, 93 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,280 Speaker 1: because when you look at the hallmarks of this basic 94 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:58,280 Speaker 1: bitch character, it's really kind of revolving around an unabashed 95 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: femininity in a lot of ways. Yeah, because basic bitches 96 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 1: are proud of loving Taylor Sweft, they all listen to 97 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: shake it off without their headphones on, and they won't care. 98 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:12,800 Speaker 1: They won't care about all of the pumpkin spice jokes 99 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 1: that roll around every single fall. Now, um and she 100 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 1: Malone writes, it's all enough to make you wonder if 101 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:23,479 Speaker 1: what people are actually really interested in is permission to 102 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 1: use the noun and not the adjective, because she goes 103 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 1: on to say, I mean, at least a basic bitch, 104 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: which is called a bit a bitch, and not have 105 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 1: to qualify it in this kind of way. Um, But 106 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: I think it's an interesting jumping off point for this 107 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 1: conversation about bitch because to me, it represents how far 108 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:47,720 Speaker 1: this word has come to the point that there are 109 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 1: even subcategories of bitches and it. Yeah, but even still, 110 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 1: just by virtue of using it, even if it is 111 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: kind of in a tongue in she snarky sort of way, 112 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 1: there is always the reservation of well, is this ultimately 113 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 1: just a horribly misogynistic term that is harmful to women? Yeah? 114 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 1: I mean. One commenter on that article from Narine Malone 115 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 1: pointed out that denoting the basic bitch like well, denoting 116 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 1: the super average woman as a basic bitch is the 117 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: same thing as calling a super average sports loving guy 118 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 1: a bro. But it's just the equivalent. But of course, 119 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: you know, bro isn't using any type of loaded, historically 120 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:39,679 Speaker 1: loaded term like basic bitches. Well, and there's an interesting 121 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 1: thing too about the bro in that I think bros 122 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: genuinely embrace their broedom. Yeah, whereas basic bitches, well, I 123 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 1: guess they are coming to the point of embracing being basic. 124 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: They might be embracing those things like Taylor Swift and 125 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 1: yoga pants, but are they embracing the term? Do they 126 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 1: know they are basic bitches? According to my YouTube search, Uh, 127 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 1: they do. I think that. I think that some do 128 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 1: where it as a badge of pride, which only adds 129 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: another layer of fascination to me for this whole word bitch. 130 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 1: So let's step away from the basic bitch because she's 131 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 1: got to get to yoga anyway. Um This all leads 132 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 1: us up to the question of whether bitch is reclaimable 133 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 1: and empowering because, as I say the top of the podcast, 134 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 1: we often have cited Bitch magazine, which is a super 135 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: feminist publication. Um or is it always ultimately insulting? Which 136 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 1: isn't so easy to answer because bitch today has so 137 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 1: many different meanings. It can be in now and it 138 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: can be a verb, it can be an adjective. Yeah, 139 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: so some of the meanings. I mean, we could just 140 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 1: list these for a while because I feel like it's 141 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: it's so multifaceted. But maybe you're a lewd, malicious, or 142 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: irritating woman. Maybe you are just a strong, assertive, independent woman, 143 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: that's right. Maybe you're using the word for your best 144 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 1: friend as a term of endearment. Maybe you're calling a 145 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 1: man that you consider to be a woos. I don't 146 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 1: like that one. A bitch. Yeah, it could be a verb. 147 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 1: You could be complaining, you know, bitching. Uh, you could 148 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:22,680 Speaker 1: be whimping out, so you're you're gonna bitch out. It 149 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 1: could be your surfing and that is just bitching. That's right. 150 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 1: So where did this word come from? Thankfully we have 151 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 1: a wonderful history or bitch story that really doesn't work. Um. 152 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: This is coming from Claire Bliley's excellent essay bitch a History, 153 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:47,680 Speaker 1: with some help from an Encyclopedia of Swearing by Jeffrey 154 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 1: Hughes and fun fact people. It has the longest history 155 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:57,680 Speaker 1: among animal terms as an insult. Yeah. I super enjoyed 156 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:00,839 Speaker 1: reading the history and the evolution of this word. If 157 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 1: you look back into the fourteenth century, it originated as 158 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 1: a slur referencing promiscuous or sensual women. Because of course 159 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 1: it referenced a female dog, a bitch and heat, but 160 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 1: it was more of a male gendered insult at the time. Yeah, 161 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:20,199 Speaker 1: it was likely derived as an insult from the connection 162 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 1: between the goddess Diana or Artemis and her hunting dogs, 163 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 1: and it resulted from a Christian attempt to quote suppress 164 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:36,439 Speaker 1: the sacred feminine and deter pagan followers of Diana. What 165 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 1: I had no idea. Yeah, so many layers before bitch 166 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:44,320 Speaker 1: was bitch. Ancient Greeks and Romans compared women to dogs 167 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 1: and heat as a sexist slur already. And so even 168 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 1: before you had the word for it, women were already 169 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:55,079 Speaker 1: being compared to sort of crazy, out of control, sexually 170 00:10:55,080 --> 00:11:01,680 Speaker 1: promiscuous animals golden retrievers. Well, so yeah, and then you 171 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 1: have the old English word for it, which was derived 172 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: itself from the Norse word for female dogs. So yeah, 173 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 1: you never quite get away from comparing women too out 174 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 1: of control animals. But you know, we mentioned a second 175 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 1: ago that even though it focused on we have sexually 176 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:21,560 Speaker 1: promiscus women and dogs that were in heat, it was 177 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: more of a male focused insult. And that's because of 178 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 1: the term son of a bitch, because that originated to 179 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 1: ridicule the spiritual pagans who worshiped the quote unquote bitch 180 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 1: goddess Diana, who herself sometimes would turn into a dog 181 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 1: along with her dogs, and it evolved to mean a 182 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:44,320 Speaker 1: hateful man. Yeah. Shakespeare actually uses it only as a 183 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: male directed insult in his writings. And what worse though, 184 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:51,199 Speaker 1: could a man be than to be compared to a 185 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 1: dirty female animal. Yeah, obviously this man that you're referring 186 00:11:55,840 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 1: to came from questionable, dirty origins. So so in eighteenth 187 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:05,199 Speaker 1: century it really began to develop into being a female 188 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 1: targeted insult, almost exclusively. So for instance, in five the 189 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 1: Classical Dictionary of the Modern Tongue described it as the 190 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: most offensive appellation that can be given to an English woman, 191 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:21,560 Speaker 1: even more provoking than that a whole Yeah, and of 192 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 1: course this forces poor dog people to find different names 193 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: for their female dog, so you know it's although you know, 194 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:33,679 Speaker 1: dog people still definitely call female dogs bitches. I can 195 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 1: say this a friend of mine, his mother is super 196 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:40,719 Speaker 1: duper dog person. But it forced dog people to use 197 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:45,960 Speaker 1: euphemisms like dog guests, lady dog, she dog, and puppy's mother, 198 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 1: although of course terms like that still infiltrated insults for 199 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 1: women and men who came from questionable origins. Yeah, and 200 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: it's in the nineteen twenties Lately writes that the raw 201 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:04,440 Speaker 1: eyes of the use of bitch to insult women really begins, 202 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:07,440 Speaker 1: and she notes that it's probably not a coincidence that 203 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: this is happening right around the passage of the nineteenth Amendment, 204 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 1: when women get the vote enfranchise men is happening um So. 205 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 1: For instance, in nineteen fifteen, the use of bitch in 206 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: literature is exclusively limited to dog references, and this is 207 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 1: based off a Google in Graham search that Bailey conducted 208 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 1: um so looking at all sorts of books. But then 209 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 1: just fifteen years later, in nineteen thirty, references to bitch 210 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:42,679 Speaker 1: as an insult to women out number the canine references. 211 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:45,200 Speaker 1: It's almost as if people were eager for a way 212 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 1: to really insult women. Yeah, but so if you are 213 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 1: looking at different uses of it in different connotations. In 214 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:54,439 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty seven, that's when we get the surfer slang 215 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:57,559 Speaker 1: bitchen for awesome, because one of our sources, I think 216 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:02,319 Speaker 1: it was the Encyclopedia, was talking about how different slurs 217 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 1: and slang words and curse words have different meanings and 218 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 1: connotations in different cultures, like the same way that bloody 219 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 1: is awful in the UK, but means absolutely nothing here 220 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 1: and all of our British listeners just turned off the 221 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 1: podcast Lets Your pearls Well. In the nineteen sixties there 222 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 1: was a reclamation of bitch along with second wave feminism. UM. 223 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 1: In general, its use was pretty steady until about nineteen 224 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: sixty five, when it's used shot up and just for 225 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: a little bit of context. The Feminine Mystique by Betty 226 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 1: for Dan was published in nineteen sixty three seminal second 227 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 1: wave text, and it was also the final report of 228 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: the Presidential Commission on the Status of Women, which came 229 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 1: out in nineteen sixty five as well. And then three 230 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 1: years later, in nineteen sixty eight, leading second wave feminist 231 00:14:57,040 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 1: Joe Freeman publishes this in credible document called the Bitch 232 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 1: Manifesto and bitches in all caps because she wants it 233 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: to denote an organization that has yet to be developed, 234 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 1: but she really devotes the paper to talking about what 235 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 1: a bitch is. It's an incredible read. I was sort 236 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 1: of blown over by it. Um. She writes. Basically, she's 237 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 1: talking in the context of the idea that that is 238 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 1: so pervasive in our culture that humanity is male, whereas 239 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: female as other so basically gender equals female in a 240 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 1: lot of cases. But she writes that bitches refused to serve, 241 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 1: honor or obey anyone. They demand to be fully functioning 242 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: human beings, not just shadows. They want to be both 243 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 1: female and human. And one of the things she notes 244 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 1: too in her very detailed description of bitches is how 245 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 1: they tend to make people uncomfortable because of an inherent 246 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 1: androgeny of not being fully female in a sense of 247 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 1: like playing up that feminine gender performance to the inn degree, 248 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 1: while also embracing some of that masculine gender performance in 249 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: the sense of being abrasive and assertive and independent. Right. Well, so, 250 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 1: when we get into the nineteen nineties, there is a 251 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 1: further feminist reclamation of the word bitch along with its 252 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: use in hip hop. For instance, we see the first 253 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 1: publishing of Bitch magazine, which we do site so often 254 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: in the podcast, and they were very clear that they 255 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 1: definitely purposely chose that name to reclaim the word. But 256 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 1: also at this time it's not being used just as 257 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 1: a word for feminists like the publishers of Bitch, who 258 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: are really seeking to reclaim it in that sense that 259 00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 1: Joe Freeman outlines in nineteen sixty eight. But it's also 260 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:04,359 Speaker 1: taking on a new level of self labeling among women, 261 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 1: not to denote outsider status or not being thrown at 262 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 1: women in order to force them into outsider status linguistically, 263 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 1: but also being just claimed by women who want to 264 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:24,200 Speaker 1: be thought of as strong and independent, who are still 265 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 1: shopping at Bloomingdale's perhaps and socialize and they're just they're 266 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 1: just bit just Yeah, Suddenly it's more normalized almost that 267 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:36,200 Speaker 1: you know, you're not just what society considers an angry feminist. 268 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 1: Suddenly you're just you know, you can embrace the word 269 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 1: too as some woman who's not considered a radical. So 270 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:45,439 Speaker 1: those were the original basic bitches. Yeah, I think so 271 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:49,239 Speaker 1: it sounds like it. Um. Also, this is when it's 272 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 1: starting to get a lot more attention from critics of 273 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:58,399 Speaker 1: gangster rap in particular because obviously the use of bitch 274 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 1: and wrap is something that's been talked to about a 275 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 1: lot in terms of how rap and hip hop uh 276 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:09,439 Speaker 1: talk about and treat women, and also involved descriptions of 277 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,920 Speaker 1: violence toward women, because a lot of times in when 278 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 1: it's men wrapping about bitches, it is usually pretty violent 279 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 1: and very sexually explicit or it's an angry uh use 280 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:25,920 Speaker 1: of bitch in the sense of a woman who will 281 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:30,879 Speaker 1: not offer herself sexually to a man. But two and 282 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 1: we'll get into this a little bit more, um in 283 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 1: just a minute. Female mcs are also though, using bitch 284 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:43,959 Speaker 1: in similar in all so different ways and rap as 285 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:46,359 Speaker 1: well at the time. Well, so then it's when we 286 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:50,200 Speaker 1: get into the two thousands the aughts that we see 287 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 1: bitch used in a couple of different ways. Um. It's 288 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 1: being used a lot more as a term for a wimpy, 289 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 1: feminized man, but also women are using it self referentially 290 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 1: and among their friends. And of course we can't forget 291 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: that Britney Spears song after she returned from her mental 292 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 1: breakdown where she announces herself by saying, it's Brittany bitch. 293 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: And with that, we're going to take a quick break 294 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 1: and we'll come right back to talk about the rise 295 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 1: of bitch on television. And now back to the show. 296 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:31,440 Speaker 1: So when we left off, it was the two thousands, 297 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 1: Brittaney was back bitch, and it was on the rise 298 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 1: on TV as well. In fact, The New York Times 299 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:44,880 Speaker 1: reported that its use tripled from four uses on one 300 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 1: hundred three primetime shows to almost thirteen hundred uses on 301 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 1: six eight five shows in two thousand seven. So bitches 302 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:59,680 Speaker 1: are everywhere on TV. What's going on with that? Well, 303 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: basically with the court helped out a little bit in 304 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: the Second Circuit Court of Appeals nipped the FCCS regulatory 305 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:11,399 Speaker 1: powers against quote unquote fleeting expletives. And this unleashed a 306 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:15,880 Speaker 1: whole ton of bitches. And this is, according to the l. A. Times, 307 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 1: um because they weren't they still weren't going to use 308 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:20,959 Speaker 1: the F word. They're still not going to use the 309 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:26,200 Speaker 1: C word, but bitches in that happy medium. Yeah. The l. A. 310 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 1: Times writer described bitch as quote a hard working multitasker, 311 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: happy to switch from now into verbs pejorative to endearment, 312 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:37,439 Speaker 1: even female to mail with the flip of an inflection. 313 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 1: So it's not surprising that the B word is tossed 314 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:45,360 Speaker 1: about with the most abandoned in comedies, often though not exclusively, 315 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:50,479 Speaker 1: those written by women. But of course there's the issue 316 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 1: of the majority of show runners and writers and producers 317 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 1: and uh executives still being men. And so there's the 318 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 1: bait thereof well, is this really a woman driven trend 319 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 1: or is this just more male writers finding ways to 320 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,879 Speaker 1: work in pejorative words. Well, I also thought it was 321 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:14,360 Speaker 1: interesting that bitch is considered such a funny word. I mean, 322 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,440 Speaker 1: it's very much a punchline in the way that other 323 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 1: words that we can't say on this podcast right now 324 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 1: are maybe harder to make light of because they're so 325 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 1: they're so harsh almost all the time. But by the 326 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:31,680 Speaker 1: time we get into when was that second court decision 327 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 1: in two thousand eleven, by that point, bitch is taken 328 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 1: on so many different meanings, whereas a lot of other 329 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 1: of you know, George Carlin's seven words you Can't say, 330 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: are far more inflexible. Um. But the rise of bitch 331 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,439 Speaker 1: and use of bitch in music is also interesting to 332 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: look at because most of the focus has been on 333 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:57,919 Speaker 1: rap and hip hop, but if you go all the 334 00:21:57,920 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 1: way back to early R and B and even out 335 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:04,399 Speaker 1: law country music, it shows up in there as well. Yeah, 336 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:08,680 Speaker 1: we have Jelly Roll Morton, who sang some saltier songs 337 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:11,920 Speaker 1: containing the word bitch. Partly is a way to masculinize 338 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: himself away from the image of the feminine piano player 339 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 1: in New Orleans, because a lot of piano players in 340 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 1: New Orleans at the time were women. Um, and you 341 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:24,200 Speaker 1: know some female contemporaries of his, we're doing the same 342 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 1: thing using that word. But when we look at the 343 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 1: contemporary music scene, and we've talked about hip hop getting 344 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 1: a lot of heat using the word bitch, but it's 345 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:35,440 Speaker 1: important to remember that a lot of female rappers use 346 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 1: the word bitch and also wear the word with pride. Yeah, 347 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,960 Speaker 1: so you have just two examples of Little Kim calling 348 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:46,159 Speaker 1: yourself queen bitch, and we're recently Nicki Minaj as the 349 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,440 Speaker 1: Baddest bitch because there is I mean, that's just another 350 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:53,680 Speaker 1: one of its manifold meanings of Yeah, I'm a bitch, 351 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:56,679 Speaker 1: I'm I'm the top I'm the top dog. I'm the 352 00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:00,159 Speaker 1: top dog is if you will, um. But what is 353 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: really fascinating was how in two thousand and twelve, Lupe 354 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 1: Fiasco releases this single UM called Bitch Bad that got 355 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 1: a lot of people talking about the use of bitch 356 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,679 Speaker 1: and hip hop because in the song he attempts to 357 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:19,880 Speaker 1: break down hip hop's bitch problem and he talks about 358 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 1: how like bitch is bad and ladies better, and he 359 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 1: though ends up coming across kind of blaming women for it. 360 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:30,919 Speaker 1: Especially the way it's set up in the music video 361 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 1: where it's a girl hearing her mom used the word bitch, 362 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 1: rather than really focusing on how men often use it 363 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 1: to refer to women in the more inflexible way of 364 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 1: being a difficult woman. Um, but I gotta give him 365 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: props so for at least trying. I mean, and and 366 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:55,919 Speaker 1: he said that too. He's like, I mean, I'm starting 367 00:23:55,920 --> 00:24:00,200 Speaker 1: a conversation about it. This clearly needs to be talked about. Well, yeah, mean, 368 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: but wasn't it. Right after that, the Kanye West made 369 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 1: a song for Kim Kardashian following her, the Perfect Bitch. Yeah. Yeah, 370 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:11,159 Speaker 1: but again though, I mean like and we could also 371 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 1: at this point mentioned how with Beyonce, the fact that 372 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 1: in her song Flawless, the hook is about down bitches. 373 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 1: That is often thrown out as um some people's rationale 374 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 1: for not believing when she calls herself a feminist, because 375 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 1: how could she use the term bitch? Oh, it just complicated, Caroline, 376 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 1: It just complicated, And it's so loaded. It's such a 377 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,160 Speaker 1: loaded term, Yeah, because it, I mean, it could really 378 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 1: mean anything. If you write bitch in sharpie on a 379 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 1: piece of paper and just handed to someone and asked 380 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 1: him what it means. It could be so many different things. Yeah, absolutely, 381 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:55,679 Speaker 1: And I mean, well, obviously have to look at the 382 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,919 Speaker 1: gender divide and what's going on there In terms of 383 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 1: the use of the word um. Timothy Jay's book Cursing 384 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 1: in America found that bitch is the number one curse 385 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 1: word used by women, but it's number six for men, 386 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:14,920 Speaker 1: which is really interesting that women use it, I would say, 387 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:17,880 Speaker 1: so much more often than men, But it might be 388 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:23,440 Speaker 1: because when men use it, it rarely tends to be complimentary, 389 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:27,919 Speaker 1: because between women bitch can be sort of an in 390 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:33,199 Speaker 1: group term of affection, whereas I think it is understandably 391 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:34,880 Speaker 1: and this kind of came up to in our conversation 392 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 1: about lady um. There there are a lot of parallels 393 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 1: actually between these two words and in the question of reclamation. 394 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 1: But I think it's a lot more challenging for a 395 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:47,640 Speaker 1: guy to walk stay into his you know, the break 396 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:49,719 Speaker 1: room of the workplace, and see a group of female 397 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:54,120 Speaker 1: co workers and say hey, bitches and it not make 398 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 1: a record scratch. Well, then, I mean that gets into 399 00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 1: issues of sexuality and sexual orientation and the way that 400 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 1: you identify and the way that other people identify you 401 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 1: because I have heard gay male friends use it both 402 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 1: for women and for other gay male friends, and nobody 403 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,159 Speaker 1: bats an eyelash. But yeah, like you said, if if 404 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:13,919 Speaker 1: the straight man were to walk in the room with 405 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:15,679 Speaker 1: a bunch of women and say it, I think they 406 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,159 Speaker 1: were just like you could hear a pin drop. What 407 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 1: what do you mean by that, um, Because a lot 408 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:25,960 Speaker 1: of times when it is directed at a woman, particularly 409 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 1: by let's say a straight dude, it usually is that 410 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 1: harsher sort of original bitch of describing a woman acting 411 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 1: against the expectations of her feminine role. Whereas when it's 412 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 1: directed when it's guys directing at other guys, especially like 413 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 1: straight guys to straight guys um, or straight guys to 414 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 1: gay guys, it's usually subordinating. There's actually a two thousand 415 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:55,200 Speaker 1: five New York Times article on the rise of quote 416 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 1: little bitch and the male directed bitch um, which really 417 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:03,159 Speaker 1: started it with the HBO show OZ, which started in 418 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:10,680 Speaker 1: because that gets into the prison lingo and uh, male 419 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 1: prisoners being other male prisoners little bitches. Yeah, and then 420 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:19,200 Speaker 1: it's interesting to see the way that characters on television, 421 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,640 Speaker 1: but I mean also culturally kind of distanced themselves from 422 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 1: any threat of perceived homo eroticism. Um. In the paper 423 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 1: reclaiming critical analysis the social Harms of Bitch, the writer 424 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 1: says that even with the let's hug it out bitch 425 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 1: quote on Entourage, the word bitch is a tool for 426 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:43,920 Speaker 1: distancing themselves from homeoroticism. In other words, when men are 427 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:47,679 Speaker 1: doing something like hugging it out, when you throw that 428 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,359 Speaker 1: word in there, it's like, oh, you know, we're just 429 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:52,119 Speaker 1: we're all just kidding. Yeah, I'm gonna hug you. I 430 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:54,640 Speaker 1: don't want to kiss you, So don't get it twisted, 431 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 1: which reminds me of this quote from that two thousand 432 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 1: five New York Times articles saying the word that wants 433 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:07,160 Speaker 1: to find a misogynistic double standard. If a man is asserted, 434 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,439 Speaker 1: he's called ambitious. If a woman is assertive, she's a bitch. 435 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,000 Speaker 1: Now defines another, If a woman is called a bitch, 436 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 1: she's powerful, formidable, a winner. But if a man's called 437 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:22,199 Speaker 1: a bitch, he's shamefully weak. And she also cited the 438 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:27,560 Speaker 1: premiere of the classic teen drama primetime show The o 439 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 1: C in which bitch is the main character. I forget 440 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,200 Speaker 1: his name right now, but I can remember his brooding glance. 441 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 1: Uh he's called bitch twice, and I think Misha Barton's 442 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: character like at the end of it is like, welcome 443 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 1: to the c bitch, and thus it begins, Uh well yeah. 444 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 1: But so then when we look at women's use of it, 445 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 1: You're right, it is all over the place in terms 446 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 1: of the way we use it. So it makes sense 447 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 1: that it's our number one curse word and not for men. 448 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,480 Speaker 1: But it can be a term of endear aman. I mean, 449 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 1: I remember my freshman roommate in college. That's how she 450 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 1: referred to all of her close female friends. And I 451 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 1: started doing it too, because you know, I was like, oh, well, 452 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 1: this is great, we're friends. And then after uh we 453 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 1: moved out, I was like, why did I ever do that? 454 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 1: I never liked it. I did not like the use 455 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: of bitches like a term for my friends. But I 456 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,280 Speaker 1: mean it could be everything from that friendly term of 457 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 1: endearment to a feminist statement to referring to someone as 458 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: angry or misogynistic. Yeah, I mean, clearly, As we mentioned 459 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 1: with Joe Freeman's Bitch Manifesto in nine eight and also 460 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 1: the magazine now Bitch, there is a close relationship between 461 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 1: this word and feminism UM and speaking about the use 462 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 1: of bitch as their intentional title UM for Bitch Magazine UH, 463 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:03,479 Speaker 1: the magazine's cove founder, Andy Ziesler wrote in The Washington Post, 464 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 1: Let's not be disingenuous. Is it a bad word? Of 465 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 1: course it is. As a culture, we've done everything possible 466 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 1: to make sure of that, starting with a constantly perpetuated 467 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 1: mindset that deems powerful women to be scary, angry and 468 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 1: of course unfeminine, and sees uncompromising speech by women as 469 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 1: anathema to a tidy, well run world. And she goes 470 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 1: on to stay as Joe Freeman also said, to be 471 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 1: called a bitch is ultimately a compliment, even if in 472 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 1: those cases they say, even if you're labeled a bitch 473 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 1: from someone who means it as you were being an angry, 474 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 1: unpleasant woman who is acting out. Yeah, and Joe Freeman, 475 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 1: I think definitely would not have appreciated or approved of 476 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 1: today's basic bitches as we think of them in pop culture. 477 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 1: She describes a bitch as being a revolutionary. These are 478 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 1: the women who helped us get the vote. These are 479 00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 1: the women who first went to college, you know. These 480 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 1: are the women who have led the feminist movement and 481 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 1: risen to the top of fortune companies. Um, so you know, 482 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,400 Speaker 1: she absolutely thinks that it is a positive term because 483 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 1: it's a positive concept. Yeah, but not everybody agrees. Not surprisingly. Um, 484 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 1: we sited just a minute ago the paper Reclaiming Critical 485 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 1: Analysis the Social Harms of Bitch by Cheryl Kleinman, Matthew 486 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 1: b Zl, and A. Corey Frost, and in it they 487 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 1: argue that bitch cannot be effectively reclaimed because of its 488 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 1: inherently misogynistic baggage, which reminds me so much, Caroline of 489 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:44,600 Speaker 1: our podcast on the word lady, because there are a 490 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 1: lot of people, especially older women from second the second 491 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 1: wave era, which is kind of ironic, who want nothing 492 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 1: to do with lady whatsoever because of its baggage. Yeah, 493 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 1: it has so much baggage. It meant something very very 494 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,240 Speaker 1: different to to the generation and the generations before, and 495 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 1: so yeah, it is interesting to draw those parallels with 496 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 1: the word bitch, especially when you have so many women 497 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 1: who call their friends bitch or who claim the word 498 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 1: for themselves just meaning like yeah, I'm strong and no 499 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:14,920 Speaker 1: I'm not going to take a back seat. Well, so 500 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 1: these writers basically argue that any use of the word 501 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:22,760 Speaker 1: bitch hurts women. They say that when women are calling 502 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 1: themselves bitch, it's just dawning what they refer to as 503 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 1: an honorary man's status instead of pushing any actual gender 504 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 1: equity forward. They say it's not part of a movement 505 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 1: like feminism is self identifying as a bitch means you're 506 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:40,240 Speaker 1: no threat. It's that whole idea of like women policing themselves, 507 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:45,200 Speaker 1: women doing men's jobs in policing other women. And they 508 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 1: said that, you know, if feminists want some empowering label 509 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 1: to use to describe themselves, why don't they just call 510 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:58,360 Speaker 1: themselves feminists, to which I said, well, maybe because other 511 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 1: people refer to feminists inherently as bitches. So like, I 512 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 1: definitely see what they're saying. I mean, they say, quote, 513 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 1: unlike the term feminist, which is tied to a movement 514 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 1: for social change, bitch provides women only with false power, 515 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 1: challenging neither men nor patriarchy. But to me, this also 516 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,160 Speaker 1: it seems like nothing can be reclaimed. I mean, what 517 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 1: about the word queer, which in a lot of ways 518 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:31,800 Speaker 1: has absolutely been reclaimed from a very harmful slur that 519 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 1: also has you know, a lot of baggage pass baggage 520 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:40,560 Speaker 1: tied to that, but it has been successfully reclaimed. Yeah, 521 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,080 Speaker 1: and I mean talking about that, I mentioned the honorary 522 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:48,160 Speaker 1: man status. They they're claiming that young women are finding 523 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 1: the use of the word cool because it's slang used 524 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 1: by men. It's a tool of the patriarchy, and so 525 00:33:55,760 --> 00:34:00,120 Speaker 1: basically women who use the word to self describe are 526 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:04,680 Speaker 1: delusional and don't know that they're being oppressed. But see, 527 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:07,920 Speaker 1: I also think, like, do you think that the women 528 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, especially in the sense of 529 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 1: how we sometimes use it casually among ourselves, as in 530 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:16,720 Speaker 1: like like in group speech among like groups of women 531 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:21,359 Speaker 1: and our friends, that we have repurposed it because we 532 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:24,360 Speaker 1: kind of say it sometimes in different ways than men do. 533 00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:27,640 Speaker 1: Like our definitions of bitch. It's so much more flexible. 534 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:32,719 Speaker 1: I mean, I do I think you have to watch it, like, uh, 535 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,720 Speaker 1: being called a bitch as in like the harsh bitch 536 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 1: is still I mean, that's that's a hard thing to 537 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,560 Speaker 1: be called. I am not immune to being called a bit. 538 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,040 Speaker 1: And yes, I have been called a bitch no surprise, 539 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:51,240 Speaker 1: um and saying it and when I have caught myself 540 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:55,359 Speaker 1: saying it in the same way I mean, it's um, 541 00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,399 Speaker 1: it's one of the most insulting things I can think of. Yeah, 542 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 1: I have actually, just in a short time since we 543 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,680 Speaker 1: were researching for this podcast and coming into the studio today, 544 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:06,719 Speaker 1: I have caught myself thinking that about another woman, like, 545 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:10,480 Speaker 1: oh god, she's a bitch? Are you trying to tell 546 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:14,839 Speaker 1: me something? But like literally stopping myself and being like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa? 547 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:18,400 Speaker 1: What do you mean? Did she just make you angry? 548 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 1: Or did she do something that a man would have 549 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:23,719 Speaker 1: done And you would have just rolled your eyes at 550 00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:25,840 Speaker 1: it if a man had done it, But because a 551 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:27,560 Speaker 1: woman is doing it, you think she's a bit. So 552 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,560 Speaker 1: I've had a lot of interesting conversations with myself on 553 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 1: the toilet as I've thought about stuff this week. But 554 00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 1: also fascinating too though that if you were thinking that 555 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:41,000 Speaker 1: about a man, it would have also had a different meaning. Yeah, 556 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,839 Speaker 1: I think the gender stuff with it too is so 557 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:48,920 Speaker 1: fascinating as well. Um, So I don't. I mean, honestly, 558 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:54,520 Speaker 1: I don't have a clear cut, um, some clear gut 559 00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:58,520 Speaker 1: ethical guide to bitch, if that makes sense. I part 560 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:00,839 Speaker 1: of me, like that part of me see sees how 561 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:04,040 Speaker 1: it's hurtful I think basic bitch is part hilarious and 562 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:07,080 Speaker 1: also I see what Nourine Malone points out of, Well, 563 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:09,359 Speaker 1: what are we really talking about when we talk about 564 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:15,360 Speaker 1: basic bitches? Um? I don't know. Lady was an easier one. Lady. 565 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,680 Speaker 1: I can say, yep, I'm fine with lady. Yeah, but bitch. 566 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:23,399 Speaker 1: What do you think, Caroline? Um? I think, well, kind 567 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:25,239 Speaker 1: of like what I was just saying, I think that 568 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 1: I have caught myself using it in so many different ways. 569 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:32,960 Speaker 1: I personally am not comfortable calling other women like as 570 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:36,279 Speaker 1: a term of endearment. I'm not comfortable with that. Um. 571 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:38,319 Speaker 1: I don't like it, and I don't want other women 572 00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:41,279 Speaker 1: to call me like, hey, bitch, because I mean, I 573 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 1: just don't like it. I have caught myself thinking about 574 00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:51,000 Speaker 1: a male acquaintance of mine who is uh, he's rather 575 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:55,560 Speaker 1: on the uh stormy, tumultuous, moody side, and I have 576 00:36:55,800 --> 00:37:00,279 Speaker 1: caught myself thinking about him as a bitch, and and 577 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:02,279 Speaker 1: then I'm just like, oh my god, the layers my 578 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 1: brain is exploding. What does it all mean? Because you 579 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,080 Speaker 1: know what, then what does that say about me? What 580 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,319 Speaker 1: does that say about stereotypical perceptions of women? And then 581 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:13,840 Speaker 1: the use of the term for a guy who's moody. 582 00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:17,640 Speaker 1: I just you know, yeah, And Joe Freeman's essay certainly 583 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:22,160 Speaker 1: made me think twice about how sensitive I have been 584 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:27,680 Speaker 1: to being called a bitch as an insult, you know, like, well, well, 585 00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:29,960 Speaker 1: why don't I take it as a compliment. Well, because 586 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:35,280 Speaker 1: sometimes maybe I am just a bit and that's not pleasant. Well, 587 00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:38,120 Speaker 1: we could go around and around and around with this, 588 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:41,000 Speaker 1: but now we need to hear from our listeners. Help 589 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:45,360 Speaker 1: us figure this out. What is the status of bitch? 590 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:48,160 Speaker 1: Let us know mom Stuff at how stuff works dot 591 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:50,759 Speaker 1: Com is our email address. You can also tweet us 592 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:54,359 Speaker 1: at mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook, and we've 593 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:56,520 Speaker 1: got a couple of Facebook messages to share with you 594 00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:58,960 Speaker 1: when we come right back from a quick break and 595 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:05,120 Speaker 1: now back to the show. Okay, I have a letter 596 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:09,279 Speaker 1: here from Petra from Toronto. She says, I know one 597 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:11,600 Speaker 1: of your recent podcasts you mentioned doing an episode on 598 00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:14,920 Speaker 1: female arm hair. I would like to encourage you to 599 00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:17,200 Speaker 1: do that because arm hair is a subject I feel 600 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,000 Speaker 1: very conflicted about. As a matter of fact, I'm waiting 601 00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:21,759 Speaker 1: right now for the wax to heat up so that 602 00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:24,680 Speaker 1: my mom can help me wax my arms I've always 603 00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:27,839 Speaker 1: been a very hairy girl, and it's caused me great embarrassment. 604 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,759 Speaker 1: In my teenage years, I've done everything under the sun 605 00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:32,680 Speaker 1: to try to get rid of my hair. Arm hair 606 00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:36,240 Speaker 1: included from simply shaving to getting laser hair removal treatments. 607 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,000 Speaker 1: I've resorted to waxing because it's cheaper than laser and 608 00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:42,600 Speaker 1: doesn't lead the equally embarrassing stubble that shaving does. In 609 00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:45,719 Speaker 1: my teenage years, I never thought twice about any feminist 610 00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:48,239 Speaker 1: implications of getting rid of my arm hair. It was 611 00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:50,279 Speaker 1: something that had to be done because I was so 612 00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:52,399 Speaker 1: much hairier than the other girls, and I didn't want 613 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,560 Speaker 1: people to think I was gross. Now, I still feel 614 00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,600 Speaker 1: disgusted by my arm hair, even though I think critically 615 00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:01,640 Speaker 1: about beauty standards and was on women, and often wonder 616 00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:04,359 Speaker 1: why I feel so strongly that I need to do this, 617 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,959 Speaker 1: whereas my brother doesn't. I know it's my choice whether 618 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:10,200 Speaker 1: to remove the hair, but I wish it felt like 619 00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:13,319 Speaker 1: a fair one. Thanks for your time, love your work, 620 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:16,440 Speaker 1: and thank you Petra Well. I've got a Facebook message 621 00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:20,000 Speaker 1: here from Morgan who writes, I just discovered your podcast 622 00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:23,080 Speaker 1: and am hooked. I was scrolling through the recent ones 623 00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:27,239 Speaker 1: and just listened to the Seafaring Ladies episode Her Deepness. 624 00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:29,720 Speaker 1: Sylvia Earle comes up at the end, and you asked 625 00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:34,359 Speaker 1: about oceanographers and marine biologists who know Dr Earle. Well, 626 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:37,560 Speaker 1: I don't personally know her, I wish. I am a 627 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:41,560 Speaker 1: marine biology master's student in San Francisco, and I've met 628 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:44,239 Speaker 1: and seen her a couple of times. The first time 629 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:45,799 Speaker 1: she was giving a short talk is part of the 630 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:50,439 Speaker 1: America's Cup Healthy Oceans project in summer. I actually got 631 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:53,080 Speaker 1: the privilege to meet her, do some small talk and 632 00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:56,120 Speaker 1: get my picture take in. And I can't say that 633 00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:58,880 Speaker 1: just being that close to her felt unreal because I 634 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:01,920 Speaker 1: couldn't help but think how much this person has impacted 635 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,160 Speaker 1: women in the marine sciences and science in general. And 636 00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:09,240 Speaker 1: then thinking that she had actually lived on the ocean floor. 637 00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:13,120 Speaker 1: I mean, what touching her made me feel almost like 638 00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:15,520 Speaker 1: I was on one of her incredible ocean adventures for 639 00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:21,720 Speaker 1: just an infinitesimal amount of time. Totally surreal moment. Thanks 640 00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:25,319 Speaker 1: for creating great podcasts and talking about really interesting stuff. Well, 641 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:28,480 Speaker 1: thank you, Morgan, and thanks everybody who's written to us. 642 00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:30,440 Speaker 1: Mom Stuff at house stuff works dot com is our 643 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:32,720 Speaker 1: email address. And for links to all of our social 644 00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:35,960 Speaker 1: media as well as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts, 645 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,759 Speaker 1: including this one with links to our sources so you 646 00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,520 Speaker 1: two can read up on the history of bitch Head. 647 00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:48,280 Speaker 1: On over to stuff Mom Never Told You dot com 648 00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:50,840 Speaker 1: for more on this and thousands of other topics. Is 649 00:40:50,880 --> 00:41:00,000 Speaker 1: it how stuff Works dot com