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Speaker 1: Trust me?

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Speaker 2: Do you trust me?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 1: Ever lead you a story?

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Speaker 2: Trust?

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Speaker 1: This is the truth, the only truth.

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Speaker 3: If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't

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Speaker 3: welcome to trust me. The podcast about called extreme Belief

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Speaker 3: Manipulation from two A little Bit Culty people who have

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Speaker 3: actually experienced it. I Am Lola Blanc and I Am

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Speaker 3: Megan Elizabeth And in part two Today with Sarah Edmondson,

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Speaker 3: survivor of Nexium and host of podcasts A little Bit

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Speaker 3: Culty plus author of the book of the same name

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Speaker 3: along with her husband, Sarah tells us about how she'd

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Speaker 3: been a Nexium but kind of doing her own thing

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Speaker 3: in Vancouver for years, how she was introduced to the

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Speaker 3: idea of collateral and why it initially seemed to make

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Speaker 3: sense as a way to hold yourself accountable before it escalated,

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Speaker 3: and all of the context leading up to her joining Doss.

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Speaker 1: When asked by one of the other women, she'll tell us.

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Speaker 4: Why she assumed the initiation ceremony was just a symbolic

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Speaker 4: ritual a ken joining a sorority, what the last straw

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Speaker 4: was for her after the branding, and how she sees

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Speaker 4: cults evolving now.

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Speaker 3: Yes and like us, Sarah spends so much of her

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Speaker 3: time talking to other people who were in cults, and

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Speaker 3: I feel like she has such deep and thoughtful perspective

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Speaker 3: on everything that she's experienced and everyone else she's spoken

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Speaker 3: to his experience.

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Speaker 4: Exactly like you and I deep and thoughtful.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, what I'm saying is we're deep and thoughtful. But no, like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: she's she knows so much about this stuff. So I

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Speaker 3: feel like it's a very rich conversation.

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Speaker 1: Truly. I'm so glad we finally had her on.

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Speaker 3: And before we get into part two, what's your cult?

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Speaker 4: He saying this week, Okay, I feel like usually you

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Speaker 4: loop me up a little bit better, and this.

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Speaker 1: Is very ew Okay, no loop for you. We're just

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Speaker 1: going dry here. Okay.

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Speaker 4: So usually you're like, and today, my dear, what is

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Speaker 4: your cultis?

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Speaker 3: Oh?

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Speaker 1: Sure, right? What's your fucking thing? Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Okay, So I really want to interview the actress Hannah Murray.

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Speaker 4: She played Gilly and Game of Thrones. She was also

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Speaker 4: in Skins and a lot of other things. Anyway, she

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Speaker 4: came out with a new memoir. It's called The Make Believe,

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Speaker 4: a Memoir of Magic and Madness, and it's about how

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Speaker 4: while she was filming a movie. She was repeatedly filming

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Speaker 4: a scene that was very traumatizing. And it's interesting to

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Speaker 4: me because a lot of times on the show we'll

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Speaker 4: talk about people experiencing trauma and then joining a high

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Speaker 4: control group after, and it almost seems as though, even

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Speaker 4: though her life she speaks of very traumatizing events that

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Speaker 4: happened in real life as well. It almost seems as

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Speaker 4: though even just acting a very traumatic event to make

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Speaker 4: our brains little more susceptible.

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Speaker 3: Does that make sense? Wait, so what CULTI thing did

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Speaker 3: she do after?

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Speaker 4: So she's experiencing a lot of distress on the set

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Speaker 4: and she starts seeing a spiritual wellness guru on the side,

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Speaker 4: and it just escalates into higher and higher prices, more

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Speaker 4: and more regimented control over her life. And one of

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Speaker 4: the interesting things that she said, among so many things,

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Speaker 4: I really hope we can interview her because I had

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Speaker 4: never thought of it like this.

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Speaker 1: She said.

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Speaker 4: One thing that Murray thinks is very relevant to her

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Speaker 4: story is that she is of the Harry Potter generation.

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Speaker 4: And she says that can't be overstated. This book that

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Speaker 4: was so popular for so many people my age, and

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Speaker 4: the most appealing thing was the idea that you might

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Speaker 4: discover this whole, magical world just under the surface of

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Speaker 4: our world. As a kid, I desperately wanted that to

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Speaker 4: be true. She felt that a lot of the fiction

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Speaker 4: for her generation was storylines where the weird kid turned

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Speaker 4: out not to be weird but special with incredible gifts.

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Speaker 4: This is from an article in The Guardian by Charlotte Edwards,

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Speaker 4: and the title of this article is I thought I

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Speaker 4: was the savior of the planet. How Game of Thrones

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Speaker 4: Hannah Murray found a wellness cult and lost her mind.

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Speaker 4: Of course, the last act of this story climaxes as

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Speaker 4: you can see from the title of this story to

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Speaker 4: her thinking that she's kind of the main character in

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Speaker 4: the world, kind of Trueman show. It seems I haven't

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Speaker 4: read the book yet, I can't wait to. And she

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Speaker 4: thought the nurse she got like fifty one to fifty

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Speaker 4: sent to the mental hospital they call it something different

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Speaker 4: and Britain, but whatever, she got sectioned, I believe she

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Speaker 4: calls it. And she thought all the nurses were just

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Speaker 4: acting like they were her nurses, like they were part

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Speaker 4: of the play.

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Speaker 3: Sounds like classic psychotic episode stuff, right, like paranoid.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And It calls back to our episode with Anne,

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Speaker 4: one of our guests, aybody wants to listen, We interviewed

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Speaker 4: a woman by the pseudonym Anne who also went through

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Speaker 4: a similar experience and kind of describes what it's like

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Speaker 4: and why it happens, because she was having a very

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Speaker 4: genuine experience, you know, like we always wonder how many

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Speaker 4: cult leaders are having a genuine experience and how many

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Speaker 4: are just full of shit. And by genuine, you mean

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Speaker 4: they believe what they're experiencing is yes, thank you, yes.

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Speaker 4: So at the head of this first wellness thing she

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Speaker 4: joined was the man she called Steve, who has a

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Speaker 4: giant Starbucks cup in his hand at all times, and

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Speaker 4: they all wear these special necklaces. And the article and

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Speaker 4: her story really suck you into a lot of interesting

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Speaker 4: perspectives and thoughts about acting, and she just speaks a

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Speaker 4: lot about how the wellness industry has become this multi

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Speaker 4: billion dollar a thing that nobody really questions, and they're like,

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Speaker 4: of course yoga is great, of course meditation is great,

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Speaker 4: but there are people exploiting it.

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Speaker 1: So that's my cultiest thing of the week.

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Speaker 4: What about you, Lola, my dear dear co host, What

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Speaker 4: was your cultes, thinking, Wow.

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Speaker 3: How you really lubed me up there, Megan, thank you

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Speaker 3: Speaking of people who want to be buttered up, Michaelsy's

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Speaker 3: saying this week, it's been a minute since it's been Trump,

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Speaker 3: so I'm gonna go back to Trump this week. Obviously,

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Speaker 3: there's just like a neck breaking, neck breaking sure amount

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Speaker 3: of sure why not stuff going on at all times,

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Speaker 3: and it's impossible to keep up. But it's just like

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Speaker 3: the number of places that he is attempting to make

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Speaker 3: his image be a picture of himself, where no other

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Speaker 3: president before him who's alive has done. It's like it's

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Speaker 3: comical at this point. It's like you realize how much

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Speaker 3: this is like dictator cult leadership, right like nobody and

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Speaker 3: they don't care.

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Speaker 1: They don't care at all. They're trying to print a

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Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty.

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Speaker 3: Dollars bill that would feature a portrait of him, even

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Speaker 3: though federal law, of course, we're not supposed to print

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Speaker 3: us money with the image of a living person. But

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Speaker 3: his people in Congress have introduced legislation to trying to

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Speaker 3: make an exception.

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Speaker 4: That's what that's what seems important right now to me.

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Speaker 4: Having a two hundred and fifty dollars bills. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 4: just like, forget about everything else.

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Speaker 1: Where's that bell?

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Speaker 3: Give me more face, Give me more of Trump's face,

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Speaker 3: Give it to me. He's also on National Park passes,

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Speaker 3: which like, oh god. I know people who like got

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Speaker 3: their passes and they were like, oh my god, I

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Speaker 3: have to look at this every time I go to

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Speaker 3: the park.

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Speaker 1: That sucks. Really a bummer.

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Speaker 3: I mean there's so much that's a bummer, Like in

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Speaker 3: particular right now. You know, the one point eight billion

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Speaker 3: dollar fund for just people he wants to give it

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Speaker 3: to is insane. And they're trying to sue the woman who,

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Speaker 3: uh you know, in court was found to he was

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Speaker 3: found to have raped her. He's now trying to sue her.

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Speaker 3: There's just so much stuff that's insane. But I'm just

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Speaker 3: focusing on the image stuff right now because it's just like,

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Speaker 3: you know, it's giving dictator. Oh you're trying to have

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Speaker 3: your portrait and your face on everything. I mean, it's

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Speaker 3: giving Dictator. I'm just saying, yeah, it's giving cult leader.

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Speaker 1: It's giving. It's giving, like I need my image to

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Speaker 1: be worshiped.

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Speaker 3: Oh did you see the gold statue of him as well, no,

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Speaker 3: there's a go there's a gold statue. No, yes, there

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Speaker 3: was a dedication ceremony led by a pastor, which is

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Speaker 3: insane because I'm sorry, have you read the Bible? To

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Speaker 3: dedicate his a giant gold statue of Trump at his

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Speaker 3: own golf course and an evangelical pastor, like did this

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Speaker 3: like whole religious ceremony blessing a gold.

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Speaker 1: Statue of Trump? I'm like golden idols. Anybody name him?

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Speaker 1: Who is he?

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Speaker 4: Mark Burns? A pastor, Mark Burns. You should be ashamed.

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Speaker 3: Trump called in to thank everybody for blessing his statue

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Speaker 3: with such love. So anyway, just to you know, there's

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Speaker 3: a little sign of maybe something, and it's like not

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Speaker 3: even like he's cute.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like at least if he were hot, Like if

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Speaker 1: John F.

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Speaker 4: Kennedy was like I want my face everywhere, maybe I'd

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Speaker 4: be a little more open to it. I want Donald

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Speaker 4: Trump's face looking at me. I just don't want anyone

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Speaker 4: living looking at me. It scares me. I'm like, I

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Speaker 4: don't need to see you everywhere you exist. You know,

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Speaker 4: if somebody's like been dead for one hundred years, fine,

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Speaker 4: it's a different thing. But I don't that's worth exploring

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Speaker 4: more on our own time. That is not I don't

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Speaker 4: know what I'm saying. Guys, I've been sick, I was

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Speaker 4: in Europe. I'm not thinking great, No, it's it's tracking.

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Speaker 1: I just don't know why it makes sense, but it does. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: like I don't know.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, if they're dead, I'm like, yes, it's Regal's I

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Speaker 3: take them seriously more seriously somehow.

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Speaker 4: But if it didn't the queen have her face on

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Speaker 4: shit while she was alive. But that's a different country,

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Speaker 4: and the monarchy is like the cult monarchy's very culty,

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Speaker 4: and that's not I don't know. And this just brings

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Speaker 4: us back to our main point, which is Harry Potter,

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Speaker 4: Harry of York, no Duke of other Harry please please

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Speaker 4: be I guess on our podcast.

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Speaker 1: So you're not sending a message to Harry Potter. Got

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Speaker 1: it now.

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Speaker 4: Also, Hannah, my cultiest thing girl, did say that, like

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Speaker 4: those books aren't inherently bad. She just thinks that all

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Speaker 4: the fantasy she read kind of set her up for

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Speaker 4: a you know, oh, I mean.

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Speaker 1: I totally get that.

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Speaker 3: But that's also just like, like I grew up on

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Speaker 3: Harry Potter too, and the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe,

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Speaker 3: like the Chronicles of Narnia, Like there were so many

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Speaker 3: of those series where it was like, I mean, that's

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Speaker 3: like just a classic story. I feel like though True

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Speaker 3: Star Wars the same thing. Yeah, well, anyway, we all

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Speaker 3: want to be special and that is what Colts prey upon.

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Speaker 3: So well, just like in the one, Sarah Edmondson is

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Speaker 3: going to tell us more about right now.

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Speaker 1: Let's do it.

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Speaker 2: At this point, we'd also opened a center in Los

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Speaker 2: Angeles and this really cool home off Abbot Kinney that used.

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Speaker 1: To be Lindsay Lohan's house affairs.

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Speaker 2: Very yes, I like lived Lovehette used to live here

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Speaker 2: and we did trainings. There is a really beautiful home,

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Speaker 2: and yeah it was it was great.

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Speaker 1: I met my husband. We met earlier, but like we

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Speaker 1: we got married during this time. We had a kid.

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Speaker 2: I think that was towards the end of the Golden

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Speaker 2: years and then the last four years are like when

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Speaker 2: things started to become weirder and weirder with annexiom And

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Speaker 2: I didn't really know it at the time, but I

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Speaker 2: you know, as like I said, I'm at people Pleaser.

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Speaker 2: I did a lot of going along to get along,

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Speaker 2: to not rock the boat, but as I got older,

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Speaker 2: it developed more of a sense of self and also

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Speaker 2: just like took the parts of Nexteme that I liked

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Speaker 2: and brought them to my center in Vancouver, which didn't

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Speaker 2: have the sex trafficking and spruitual wives and all that

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Speaker 2: stuff that we find out later.

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Speaker 1: I just kind of did my own thing and learned to.

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Speaker 2: I didn't really I wasn't conscious that I was doing this,

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Speaker 2: but I would start to be like, yeah, I entered

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Speaker 2: my data, which there was all this really boring manual

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Speaker 2: work that we had to do, like entering your numbers, yep,

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Speaker 2: right always, And I was like, I did it because

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Speaker 2: I realized they weren't checking. And so I started to

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Speaker 2: fudge things a bit, Like we were supposed to do

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Speaker 2: these penances like stand for each other at two in

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Speaker 2: the morning, so that we would develop our consciousness about

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Speaker 2: other people's failures.

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Speaker 1: We could be more like just total bullshit. I can't

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Speaker 1: even explain.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So I'd be like, yeah, I stood for you,

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Speaker 2: but like I'm in Vancouver and there in Albany, no

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Speaker 2: one's checking, right. I knew it was bullshit, but I

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Speaker 2: knew that I had to go along with it, and

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Speaker 2: I didn't really see a way out.

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Speaker 1: I guess do you think you.

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Speaker 4: Were just exhausted from having a CA and your mind

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Speaker 4: was like, yes, let's just let me off the hook

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Speaker 4: on this because your personality person I can't see you

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Speaker 4: being like, oh, fudget unless you are just utterly yeah

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Speaker 4: said yeah, I.

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Speaker 2: Think I think I wasn't fully cognizant of my that

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Speaker 2: I was fudging it.

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Speaker 1: I think you're right.

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Speaker 2: I was like, I just got to get through this

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Speaker 2: and that they're not really checking anyway, and I knew

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Speaker 2: that it was. It wasn't like I wasn't doing the work. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I just didn't want to enter the data. Actually, right,

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Speaker 2: I was in heart Yeah, yeah, like I still care

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Speaker 2: about you. But it got it just got more and

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Speaker 2: more like that, and then I started to actively be like,

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Speaker 2: that's dumb. I'm not going to enroll people into that

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Speaker 2: new program. Like they created a new a new curriculum

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Speaker 2: called the University Program, which was to fast track people

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Speaker 2: up the straight path because we need more proctors to grow,

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Speaker 2: because we needed more teachers, and they were charging people

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Speaker 2: five thousand dollars a month, and it was the same

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Speaker 2: curriculum as this other program called Ethos, which is three

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Speaker 2: hundred dollars a month, but it was in Albany and

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Speaker 2: they were going to get special care. And I was

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Speaker 2: and that's like, why haven't you enrolled more people to

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Speaker 2: the university program. It's like one of the last conversations

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Speaker 2: I ever had with her. And I was like, I mean,

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Speaker 2: I don't think it's a good value, Like I don't.

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Speaker 2: That seems crazy to me, but that I couldn't say that.

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Speaker 2: So I was like, well, you know, I think people

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Speaker 2: are having a hard time coming up with five grand

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Speaker 2: when they could get it for three hundred of Vancouver,

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Speaker 2: you know what I mean. Like, I'm not going to

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Speaker 2: be as abrasive as I'd like to be because I'm

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Speaker 2: still people pleaser.

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Speaker 1: But in my head, I'm like, I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: do it. I'm not going to do that.

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Speaker 4: And Nancy is a very like I just want to

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Speaker 4: give people who don't know about Nancy a little bit

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Speaker 4: of context for who that is. So she's like a

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Speaker 4: motherly therapist too. Keith was like, be my partner. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: And I honestly feel like she was a reason a

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Speaker 4: lot of the women trusted him as much as they did.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, her and and a number of the women. I mean,

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Speaker 2: Keith basically had a number of Glenn Maxwell's sort of

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Speaker 2: around him.

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Speaker 1: Yes, right, it seems like he.

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Speaker 3: Was just really good at identifying people that people would

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Speaker 3: like and just people who in their heart wanted to

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Speaker 3: be good and like you and nippy right about that

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Speaker 3: a bit in a little bit, Culty, I believe there

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Speaker 3: was a term for it, but I'm blinking on what

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Speaker 3: it is right now. Lever stress, Yes, tell us about

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Speaker 3: that idea.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so Mark Visindy was weaponized because of you know,

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Speaker 2: he was the director of What the Bleep?

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Speaker 1: Do we know?

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Speaker 2: So, like in the early days when I had just

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Speaker 2: started and I wanted to bring people in, I wasn't

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Speaker 2: doing presentations. I was saying, oh my goodness, I met

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Speaker 2: this man. You see what the Bleep? You liked What

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Speaker 2: the Bleep? Well, if you like what the Bleep, then

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Speaker 2: you'd love this thing. And I'd introduce them, or he'd

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Speaker 2: come to Vancouver and I'd fill a room with like

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Speaker 2: fifty people. That's leverage trust. People trusted me, and then

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Speaker 2: they were to come and then we're leveraging the trust

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Speaker 2: of him as a filmmaker and as a spiritual person

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Speaker 2: and somebody who like is in the know about such things.

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Speaker 2: And whereas with Nippy, and we really tried to do

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Speaker 2: this throughout the book is like show different perspectives of

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Speaker 2: how people get in. Nippy was his ex girlfriend who

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Speaker 2: leveraged their relationship and his heart and sort of like

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Speaker 2: dangled the potential like getting back together maybe, and so

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Speaker 2: that was leveraged.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: Nippy even said I'm not doing your weird cult thing,

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Speaker 2: like he was fully aware that it was weird. But

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Speaker 2: then like his dad, her dad that went to Yale

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Speaker 2: was a heart surgeon, you know, that gets leveraged. So

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Speaker 2: it's that all of these things add out for people

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Speaker 2: to think, oh, this is a good choice.

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Speaker 4: And I will just say my father who went to

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Speaker 4: Yelling as a surgeon and as an occult, they do

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Speaker 4: this with happen right completely right, you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I remember there was a Hollywood guy who I knew

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Speaker 3: socially and that was one of the things people would

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Speaker 3: say about him too, is he was just so great

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Speaker 3: at picking people that that everybody liked and like, you know,

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Speaker 3: thought wouldn't steer them wrong to hang out with him,

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Speaker 3: Like that's that's such a thing. And in this case,

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Speaker 3: I think surrounding himself with all of these charismatic women.

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Speaker 3: It seems, aside from his selfish motivations, obviously very much

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Speaker 3: by design for expanding the group because he can't be everywhere.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I really see the people that he brought in

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Speaker 2: and leveraged as his army.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and even for somebody like Nippy.

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Speaker 2: Who obviously wasn't being used as part of the harem

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Speaker 2: because that's the only way he was straight as far

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Speaker 2: as we know. But Nippy he was a great frontman

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Speaker 2: for you know, like, oh, look at this alpha male

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Speaker 2: who's also really.

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Speaker 1: Into personal growth, right.

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Speaker 2: And I think that he also developed sop socide of protectors,

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Speaker 2: which came later as a way for him to have

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Speaker 2: you know, a group of guys sort of around him

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Speaker 2: to protect him and to do whatever he wanted, which,

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Speaker 2: by the way, when you're asking me earlier, like what

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Speaker 2: happened in the twelve years a really key thing. Then

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Speaker 2: the last chunk of time, not only was I exhausted,

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Speaker 2: and I think this is in the book as well,

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Speaker 2: is that there was a lot of things happening in

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Speaker 2: the company that made it very difficult for me to

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Speaker 2: do my job. Keith kept starting up new programs and

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Speaker 2: kind of like pulling all my top coaches away that

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Speaker 2: were running my classes to Albany to develop these new programs,

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Speaker 2: which ultimately were bullshit and weren't going anywhere.

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Speaker 1: So that was happening.

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Speaker 2: Claire Broffman was raising my prices like It's like I

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Speaker 2: had all this responsibility and not the authority to really

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Speaker 2: do what I needed to do in the center that

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Speaker 2: I was running.

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Speaker 1: And then it just just got weirder.

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Speaker 2: Like Barbara Jeski, who was one of my main mentors,

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Speaker 2: died of cancer very very quickly and rapidly.

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Speaker 1: And this is.

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Speaker 2: Somebody who, like me, is a green juice drinking kombucha,

380
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Speaker 2: you know, power walking yogi.

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Speaker 1: You know, and all of a sudden she's a brain tumor.

382
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Speaker 2: And then Pam Kayfrit's his his like at the time

383
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Speaker 2: I thought was his assistant. Turns out has been his

384
00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:22,439
Speaker 2: life partner since they were like teenagers. She dies, Like

385
00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:24,720
Speaker 2: people were getting very sick, and there was a lot

386
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Speaker 2: of cancer. The curriculum was getting more intense with this

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Speaker 2: idea of penance and collateral and I just wasn't into it.

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Speaker 2: But I didn't I couldn't really admit that because I

389
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Speaker 2: was fully invested and I mean I thought I was

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Speaker 2: going to be a member for life, like this was

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Speaker 2: the rest of my life.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean.

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Speaker 3: Your social world, your financial world, like everything is wrapped

394
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Speaker 3: up in this group.

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Speaker 1: Yes, after that much time, I can't even imagine. Yes.

396
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Speaker 4: Yeah, and just like a sense of safety and self

397
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Speaker 4: and growth and meaning and yeah.

398
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Speaker 1: The collateral stuff.

399
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Speaker 3: Can you just talk about that a little bit for

400
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Speaker 3: folks who don't know.

401
00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:12,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, So collateral came.

402
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Speaker 2: I believe it was through a curriculum that started in

403
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Speaker 2: twenty twelve. And this was through program or like an

404
00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:22,000
Speaker 2: eight day training called Human Pain, which sounds good, really

405
00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:22,800
Speaker 2: not enjoyable.

406
00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:25,200
Speaker 1: A program called Human Pain.

407
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Speaker 2: It's called Human Pain, And I wish I could remember

408
00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,159
Speaker 2: what we did in it, but there's a couple exercises

409
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Speaker 2: that I remember basically was designed.

410
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Speaker 1: To help you feel more.

411
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Speaker 2: And there was a couple of things that I actually

412
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Speaker 2: at the time really loved, and I remember as an actor,

413
00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:40,119
Speaker 2: I was like, Wow, I just feel like I've my

414
00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:43,600
Speaker 2: connection to my emotions is so much depth, fier and richer,

415
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Speaker 2: and I could like I feel like I could pass

416
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Speaker 2: by someone on the street and like download their history

417
00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:51,199
Speaker 2: and their suffering and their trauma and their triumphs. That's

418
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Speaker 2: how it felt like I was more empathetic or something

419
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Speaker 2: more like dialed into people's feelings.

420
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Speaker 1: That's what I remember.

421
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Speaker 2: But in that was all so introduced the concept of

422
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Speaker 2: collateral where you I'm gonna butcher this. It's been a while,

423
00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:07,520
Speaker 2: but like concepts were built on concepts are built on

424
00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:09,720
Speaker 2: concepts are built on concepts. So for me to even

425
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Speaker 2: say what I was accepting at this point is built

426
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Speaker 2: on like ten years before that, things that were like

427
00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:18,000
Speaker 2: part of the programming.

428
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Speaker 1: So it's hard, it's kind of hard to explain.

429
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Speaker 2: But basically one of the tenants was that love is

430
00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:25,840
Speaker 2: pain is basically one of them. Love is pain and

431
00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:27,800
Speaker 2: you know that because if you don't have it, like,

432
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Speaker 2: I don't even know if I can explain it properly.

433
00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:33,960
Speaker 2: It's it's too word salady and crazy. But the idea

434
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:36,640
Speaker 2: was that if you had a goal or a commitment

435
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,640
Speaker 2: to something, that you would put something down as wait

436
00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,600
Speaker 2: for your word. Because in the moment, if you're choosing

437
00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:45,760
Speaker 2: to go to the gym versus cheesecake, it feels better

438
00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:48,120
Speaker 2: to eat the cheesecake. But if you know that there's

439
00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:51,840
Speaker 2: a consequence that you've instilled it's weighty enough to cause

440
00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:52,960
Speaker 2: you to make the right decision.

441
00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:55,439
Speaker 1: That's sort of the idea.

442
00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:58,240
Speaker 4: And I'll ground this in a little bit of reality

443
00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:01,920
Speaker 4: because I remember, like moms in my neighborhood growing up,

444
00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:04,760
Speaker 4: having a pack where if you broke your diet, you

445
00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:08,959
Speaker 4: would eat some dog food. Okay, so that's crazy, but

446
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:10,600
Speaker 4: it was the the.

447
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:11,840
Speaker 1: You don't want to eat the dog.

448
00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:13,320
Speaker 4: You don't want to eat the dog, so it's going

449
00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:15,199
Speaker 4: to motivate. So it's going to motivate you. And this

450
00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:16,840
Speaker 4: group of people are like, and you'll have to eat

451
00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:20,480
Speaker 4: the dog food. So I think that this is a

452
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:24,560
Speaker 4: concept people have done or can understand. And you're under

453
00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:28,240
Speaker 4: way heightened steaks at this point. Yes, so what does

454
00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:29,119
Speaker 4: that look like for you?

455
00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:30,040
Speaker 1: Yes?

456
00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:32,359
Speaker 2: And also keep in mind, like in reality, in the world,

457
00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:34,359
Speaker 2: there is such thing as like, if you're getting a

458
00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:37,480
Speaker 2: loan from the bank, you put up collateral. Yes, yes,

459
00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:39,520
Speaker 2: you know that's where it comes from. If I'm borrowing

460
00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:41,119
Speaker 2: one hundred thousand, and if I don't pay it, then

461
00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:42,720
Speaker 2: you can take my house, which is where one hundred

462
00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:43,560
Speaker 2: thousand or whatever it is.

463
00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:44,960
Speaker 1: Right, that's how it works.

464
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,520
Speaker 2: So it keeps you to your word, and there's there's

465
00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:52,040
Speaker 2: a cause and effect consequence to not doing what you

466
00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:53,800
Speaker 2: say you're going to do. So this the idea, this

467
00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:58,040
Speaker 2: started just being like a rampant part of the many exercises.

468
00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:00,520
Speaker 2: Now keep in mind, by this point, we're all doing

469
00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:01,960
Speaker 2: all of these things that we've been doing for a

470
00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:04,440
Speaker 2: long time, like persistency. This is in the book, where

471
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:06,400
Speaker 2: like we've all agreed to do one thing every day

472
00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:08,280
Speaker 2: that helps us grow. At this point, I probably had

473
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:11,560
Speaker 2: seven persistencies that I did every day in checking with

474
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:16,080
Speaker 2: my coach. So I was like exercising doing Spanish ten

475
00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:18,080
Speaker 2: minutes a day of my financials, like all these little

476
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:20,480
Speaker 2: things that I kept doing and adding like there was

477
00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:24,000
Speaker 2: one person who had a five year persistency of guitar practice.

478
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:24,520
Speaker 1: Every day no matter what.

479
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,000
Speaker 2: So like people were becoming more and more like committed

480
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:30,040
Speaker 2: and discipline like these little soldiers, and I was supposed

481
00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:32,520
Speaker 2: to be towards their growth. A lot of women were

482
00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:34,600
Speaker 2: on these crazy diets. I didn't understand that was part

483
00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:36,760
Speaker 2: of what they had to do to be thin for Keith.

484
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:38,200
Speaker 1: But that was going on. So how did it look

485
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:38,439
Speaker 1: for me?

486
00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:42,200
Speaker 2: I mean, honestly, like in retrospect, I didn't really take

487
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:44,800
Speaker 2: it that. Seriously, I never really had. And this is

488
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:48,080
Speaker 2: probably if anyone's listening who's like Anaxian believer, and there

489
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,639
Speaker 2: still are a Naxian believers crazy and they're like listening

490
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:53,640
Speaker 2: to all our content to make sure we don't say

491
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,160
Speaker 2: something wrong or like something they can say to sue

492
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:56,840
Speaker 2: us or whatever.

493
00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:59,719
Speaker 1: They'll be like, see Sarah never did the work right.

494
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:03,199
Speaker 2: I kind of like half asked this part, but it

495
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 2: was also normalized like I was used to. I mean

496
00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:07,520
Speaker 2: I did some things like that were kind of silly,

497
00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:09,720
Speaker 2: like if I nagged Nibby, Like if I was trying

498
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:11,680
Speaker 2: to not be naggy because I'm a control free crape.

499
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,359
Speaker 2: If I was nagging, then I wouldn't be allowed to

500
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:17,840
Speaker 2: go to yoga the next day, like I would take

501
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:21,879
Speaker 2: I would like punish myself with something that I wanted, okay, okay,

502
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:24,280
Speaker 2: or like I would know, no chocolate for.

503
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:27,240
Speaker 1: The month if I raise my voice with my kid

504
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:27,960
Speaker 1: or something like that.

505
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,720
Speaker 3: Right, So just these like little punishments or consequences.

506
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:32,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, consequences.

507
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:35,080
Speaker 3: But other people were doing more extreme things like you

508
00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:36,959
Speaker 3: saw in the vow Bonnie slept on the floor.

509
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:39,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, people were doing cold showers.

510
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:45,520
Speaker 4: Things like that, and then it escalated to essentially blackmail.

511
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:47,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, with DOS, that's what it was. It was.

512
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 2: It was presented as collateral, but basically it was used

513
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:52,680
Speaker 2: to blackmail people to do what they want.

514
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:57,639
Speaker 4: This DOS experience is unlike anything I've ever read about.

515
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:00,639
Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about what it was? Sure,

516
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:01,399
Speaker 1: I'm going to.

517
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:03,520
Speaker 2: Try to do a high level overview, partly because it's

518
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:05,879
Speaker 2: so complicated about how how all the steps that it

519
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,960
Speaker 2: took to get me in, but also because I've realized

520
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 2: recently that even though it's nine years out, if I

521
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:13,960
Speaker 2: go onto the into the detail and like really put

522
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 2: myself there of the branding and everything, it's not good

523
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 2: for me.

524
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:21,040
Speaker 1: No, it's still not fair, of course, yeah, of course not. Yeah.

525
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:22,800
Speaker 2: So sometimes when I talk about it now from that

526
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:25,360
Speaker 2: sort of like overview perspective, I seem a little detached,

527
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 2: which I am, And then it's like it's just a

528
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,400
Speaker 2: hard balance for me to I get that, to figure

529
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:31,159
Speaker 2: out how to explain it.

530
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:32,680
Speaker 4: But I'll do my best. But if you don't want

531
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 4: to talk about DOS, also, we don't have to.

532
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 2: I'll do like a summary so people know and if

533
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,679
Speaker 2: they want to know the details, read Scarred, because I

534
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:42,880
Speaker 2: do think it's it's interesting.

535
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 1: Because people were like, well, how did you agree to that?

536
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:47,399
Speaker 2: And if if you want to know how I agreed

537
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 2: to it, you'll see that I didn't agree to it.

538
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:50,880
Speaker 1: I agree to a lie.

539
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,359
Speaker 2: And I think that's what's what's interesting about how I

540
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,120
Speaker 2: got into DOS is that I was dangled the thing

541
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 2: that was important to me from the beginning. Another level,

542
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:00,960
Speaker 2: I was invited by by Laura, who is Nancy's daughter.

543
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 1: She's my best friend, somebody I trust.

544
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,960
Speaker 2: Implicitly, she married Nippy and I she was Troy's godmother,

545
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 2: So a lot of factors that played into me even

546
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 2: trusting to hear her pitch. But basically, she invited me

547
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:15,399
Speaker 2: to something that I couldn't even hear about till I

548
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,400
Speaker 2: gave collateral that she would hold to keep a secret.

549
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 2: Now what I didn't understand at that time is as

550
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 2: soon as she had that collateral is that I could

551
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:26,200
Speaker 2: already be blackmailed from there. So there was That's where

552
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 2: the beginning of the coercion. I mean, the coersion started

553
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 2: twelve years ago. When I started in two thousand and five,

554
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:37,760
Speaker 2: when I agreed to override my intuition and suppress that

555
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:42,120
Speaker 2: even though I had, you know, many uncomfortable feelings. I

556
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,359
Speaker 2: was like, I'm overriding this because I'm here to grow.

557
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 2: And that was you know, using at cause terms I

558
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,399
Speaker 2: committed to that I chose to over it. But like

559
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 2: here's where Here's what's tricky is that you can't consent

560
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 2: to something when there's a lie involved.

561
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 1: And the lie is that this is not personal development.

562
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 2: This is a way for Keith to create something of

563
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:04,439
Speaker 2: value so that people would commit and go deeper, and

564
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 2: so that he would have this pipeline of women and money.

565
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 1: That's that's the lie, right.

566
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 2: And there's so many people out there that are like, oh,

567
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 2: but I did a five day and I'm fine, Like, yeah,

568
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:14,680
Speaker 2: because you didn't move to Albany and have such to

569
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:16,360
Speaker 2: keep right, Yeah, right.

570
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,159
Speaker 1: And neither did I. Yeah, for the record, that's a

571
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 1: little different.

572
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 4: You didn't play volleyball till six am every night?

573
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:24,439
Speaker 1: Yes, I wish. By the way, sidebar, I think is

574
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 1: what saved me.

575
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 2: Like A I hate volleyball, no offense people who lay volleyball,

576
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:28,879
Speaker 2: but I'm just not I'm not good at it. We

577
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,640
Speaker 2: hate it too, Yeah, same, Yeah, my sleep was more important,

578
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 2: And I mean I'm going to asker your question about

579
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 2: DAWs in a second. But that's the kind of sort

580
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 2: of gas lighty thing that like kind of feedback I

581
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 2: would get is somebody might say, like, what does it

582
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:46,119
Speaker 2: mean that you're choosing comfort over growth? Like yeah, exactly,

583
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 2: way Vey, Like what does that mean about you that

584
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 2: you choose to sleep versus spending time with the smartest

585
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:52,959
Speaker 2: man in the world who could help you overcome all

586
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 2: your limitations, like that kind of thing, Like, but it

587
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 2: said in the most kind, compassionate way. So I'm like, shit, like,

588
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 2: oh I I do like to sleep? What's wrong with me?

589
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,360
Speaker 2: And then I, you know, I learned to push myself

590
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 2: way past right.

591
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 3: So any choice you make that prioritizes yourself, your own

592
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 3: well being, your own identity or desires is marketed to

593
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:17,920
Speaker 3: you as a flaw or something you're doing wrong.

594
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:18,680
Speaker 1: Exactly.

595
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so honestly, by the time that Lauren invited me,

596
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 2: I did feel inherently like not broken, but I was

597
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 2: stuck in the strip path. Nippy and I were having

598
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 2: some you know, normal marital challenges at the time, and

599
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:36,960
Speaker 2: I mean didn't know this, but they were trying to

600
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,919
Speaker 2: divide us, you know, the very key very much didn't

601
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,199
Speaker 2: want me to be with be with him, just as

602
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 2: he didn't want me to be with David, who I

603
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 2: started with. I think that's explaining the book, that how

604
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 2: he kind of like not he, but my coaches convinced

605
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 2: me like I was growing faster and did it makes

606
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 2: sense for me to stay with somebody who was like

607
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,639
Speaker 2: kind of pulling me down. And so anyway, by the

608
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 2: time Lauren invited me, I was really you.

609
00:27:58,480 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 1: Know, I was.

610
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,880
Speaker 2: I had stagnated, so I was being offered an opportunity.

611
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,359
Speaker 1: So again it's another hook. What was the hook? More growth,

612
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: more commitment.

613
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 2: But honestly I wanted to I wanted the time with

614
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,160
Speaker 2: her like she was Even though we were really good friends,

615
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:11,680
Speaker 2: I rarely had time with her.

616
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 1: She was so busy. And basically, what she's offering me once.

617
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 2: I'd given the collateral, I'm invited to a badass bitch

618
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 2: boot camp. Oh for women who really want to grow

619
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:23,360
Speaker 2: and go to the next level. And you know, we're

620
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:25,399
Speaker 2: going to hold each other accountable. And again it's like

621
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:27,119
Speaker 2: the straight path. If it was what it was supposed

622
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 2: to have been, it would have been great. Right, of course,

623
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 2: I have a group of women holding each other accountable

624
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 2: and going to the next level in our goals and

625
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,160
Speaker 2: having like a really solid path to like get there

626
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:37,879
Speaker 2: and not let ourselves off the hook.

627
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 3: And also in the in the book, you're like, I

628
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 3: think you mentioned something about how it was like the

629
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 3: Freemasons were referenced, and it's like this is like the

630
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 3: women's version of that. Yeah, And I'm like, yeah, where please.

631
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 1: Me, as I've been trying to do this. Yeah.

632
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 2: And if you ever met Lauren, she she's so she

633
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 2: is still so cool. And you know, if I ever

634
00:28:58,240 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 2: did a five day with somebody who I knew would

635
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 2: be like hard nut to crack, I would want her

636
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 2: to cheat it because she would take all these weird things,

637
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:05,960
Speaker 2: the Sashes calling them vanguard and she's like, yeah, you know,

638
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 2: we call professors professors and you judge your honor and

639
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 2: certain like we call the vanguards like leader of a

640
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 2: philosophical movements, some big deal. Like she was just so

641
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 2: cool and casual and it was the same kind of

642
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 2: thing with it. She's like, it's just a woman's group,

643
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 2: and like I'm gonna be your coach and you're gonna

644
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 2: call me master, and like, you know, say, it's not

645
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 2: a big deal, but I'm like, yeah, it's a game,

646
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,719
Speaker 2: it's an exercise. Meanwhile, you know, cut to me eight

647
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 2: years later and I'm doing this podcast and like all

648
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 2: these fucking cults have masters and slaves, right, like actual

649
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 2: that's the term, Like they call the leader master.

650
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 3: Yeah right, yeah, I mean I have not played Dan

651
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 3: Dy's so I am speaking completely out of my ass here,

652
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 3: but I have D and D on the brain this

653
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 3: week because of some projects. It's role playing and they

654
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 3: you know, I think a lot of terminology would be

655
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 3: used like that, and like I could see a world

656
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 3: in which you're like, this isn't real, though, this isn't serious, though,

657
00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 3: it's just like part.

658
00:29:58,080 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 1: Of the the game.

659
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 2: We're playing exercise or you know, yeah, or if you

660
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 2: anyone's ever been in a sorority, they know that the

661
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 2: women above them aren't really like they're hazing them, but

662
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 2: it's just sort of like a ceremony.

663
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 1: It's a ritual initiation. It's original, and it's like not real.

664
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 1: Yeah right.

665
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 2: And also I'm in I'm in Vancouver, she's in Albany, Like,

666
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,719
Speaker 2: how can I be her actual slave? It's just silly, right, yeah.

667
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 2: Of course, then it took a turn for the darker. Yeah,

668
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 2: so a lot of there's a lot of things, and

669
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 2: again if people want to know each step and what

670
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 2: I committed to and how it was twisted and then

671
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 2: how they how I was like basically had a gun

672
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 2: to my head. But the long and short of it

673
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 2: is that I agreed to a valve obedience or I

674
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 2: was going to do whatever she said.

675
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 1: And I even said, like, what if you tell me

676
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 1: to rob a bank? She's like, Sarah, it's going to be.

677
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 2: Like, you know things that you committed to for you,

678
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 2: and I'm going to tell you to do your goals

679
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 2: and then you're going to do your goals.

680
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 1: That's what it's going to be. So you have to

681
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 1: do what I say.

682
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, I can do that and valve obedience

683
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 2: master slave. I never ended up getting one, but to

684
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 2: have like a like a belly bracelet or a piece

685
00:30:58,360 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 2: of jewelry that would be permanent.

686
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 1: I never found one. I got out too quickly.

687
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 2: And then getting a tattoo, which she may have said,

688
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 2: this is the part that's like, uh, you know, a

689
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 2: micro microscope on it. The in the trial she thinks

690
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 2: that she told me begetting a brand. I didn't even

691
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 2: know humans could be branded. What she also said is

692
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 2: a mark on your body like a tattoo. I remember, tattoo.

693
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 2: I think I'm going to go get a tattoo, a

694
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 2: dime size tattoo, a dime size, very pretty tattoo as

695
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 2: an initiation with my sisters and my new sorority of sisters, right,

696
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 2: which I didn't want. And that was a whole other

697
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 2: thing that you know, she spent time with me eming me,

698
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:40,959
Speaker 2: which is the process of like working through limitations around

699
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 2: your beliefs around something. And I was like, this is

700
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:45,719
Speaker 2: what it means. She's basically changed the meaning for me,

701
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 2: so that I was like accepting that I was beginning

702
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 2: this mark on my body.

703
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 1: She's like, what's scary to you about permanence? What's I

704
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 1: can see like that?

705
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 4: You know, like, what that's your lemit the commitment, phoebe

706
00:31:57,840 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 4: about a tattoo?

707
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 1: Right? What does that mean about you that you're not

708
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 1: willing to make this commitment?

709
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 3: Right? Right? Yeah, So folks can go learn more about

710
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 3: the branding and all of that. We will not go

711
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:13,479
Speaker 3: into any more detail on that.

712
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 1: Thank you. I appreciate that.

713
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was pretty horrific and they can see it

714
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 2: in the vow as well. But that that's how my

715
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 2: book starts as the night of the branding and cut

716
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 2: to six weeks later.

717
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 1: There's so many things that.

718
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 2: Happened, But the long and short of it is Mark Vicente,

719
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 2: the guy who brought me in, and he I didn't

720
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 2: mention this.

721
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 1: He became my business partner.

722
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 2: We opened the school together and I lay together, and

723
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 2: you know, I call him my bonus husband than like

724
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 2: he's married and I'm married, but like, we spend so

725
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:39,719
Speaker 2: much time together, and now he's leaving.

726
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 1: His wife Bonnie left first. Now he's leaving. Won't tell

727
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 1: me why he's leaving unless I sign an NDA.

728
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 2: He's been living in Albany, so he's been seeing more

729
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 2: shit than I have, right, and I've been Vancouver. And

730
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 2: the long and short of is that he basically tells

731
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 2: me he's leaving because all these weird things are happening.

732
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 2: And he heard about a secret women's group where women

733
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 2: are being tasked or signed to have sex with Keith.

734
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 1: That was really like the final straw.

735
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously, there's so many things that were heavy

736
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:10,479
Speaker 2: on my shelf, right, so many things, And one thing

737
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 2: I forgot to mention is once I was in and branded,

738
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 2: then it amped up. Then I had to recruit my

739
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 2: own slaves. Then I had to give more collateral every month.

740
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 2: Lauren had asked me for the deed to my home,

741
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 2: which she would hold just in case I ever broke

742
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 2: my word. Whoa this is actually when I was cognizant

743
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 2: of like that's never going to fucking happen, I was like, sure,

744
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:31,959
Speaker 2: I'm contact my lawyer. I'm not sure how to do that,

745
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 2: but I will look into it, like I'm just figuring

746
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 2: out how to get out of it while keeping everything copacetic.

747
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 1: So Martin.

748
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,840
Speaker 2: Anyway, Mark tells me this, I feel safe under his NDA,

749
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 2: which makes no sense.

750
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 1: But I tell him about the branding, so he knew

751
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 1: about the sex. I knew about the branding, and.

752
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 2: Basically we've had a conversation where we were kind of

753
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 2: able to piece together.

754
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 1: Oh my god. Keith Rnary is.

755
00:33:54,880 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 2: A sociopathic, sex addicted douchebag who's created a blackmail MLM

756
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 2: scheme to secure pussy.

757
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 1: That's what it is, razy right, we couldn't say.

758
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 2: Ever, Sorry to be grass, but you know it's correct, accurate.

759
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,799
Speaker 3: He's like trying to make it all mysterious.

760
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 4: And so much, so much work, so much literal work

761
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 4: and work books, and it's like just be Polly, like

762
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 4: it's not my god.

763
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 2: Go to a dungeon, like go to one of those

764
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 2: places where people like do that and they agree to

765
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 2: it and it's all above board.

766
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,840
Speaker 1: Yeah why Yeah, he likes the power.

767
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 4: Like also, he couldn't he couldn't afford to just be

768
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 4: a normal guy who has a normal job and hires

769
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 4: sex workers.

770
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 1: He couldn't do it the normal way.

771
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 4: I don't think he had to create an entire world

772
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 4: kind of like Samuel and the False Prophet where he is.

773
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:51,279
Speaker 1: A he's a king. I think he could have.

774
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,400
Speaker 3: I think he just would have been bored and like restless.

775
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:56,719
Speaker 2: And I don't know a sidebar that I don't think

776
00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 2: a lot of people know is And this is why

777
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:01,759
Speaker 2: it's like, really your titating when people like Nancy out there.

778
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 2: I'm sure you heard her on mind Games. Did you

779
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 2: listen to mind Games? Oh yeah, yeah, So Nancy was

780
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,920
Speaker 2: like talking about like my company is just fine, and

781
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 2: and dos was.

782
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:14,799
Speaker 1: Where it got weird there the two are.

783
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:16,919
Speaker 2: I mean, what's true is that there's there's some people

784
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 2: who took five days and didn't have anything to do

785
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 2: with the weird sex stuff.

786
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 1: That's true. But what's untrue is.

787
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 2: That Nexium was clean like Nexium, like all of these

788
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 2: people that were running Nexium, that were on the executive board,

789
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:31,840
Speaker 2: that were all of those people were in all the

790
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:33,720
Speaker 2: women were in Keith's harem.

791
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:36,759
Speaker 4: Can you remind me if Nancy was having sex with Keith,

792
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 4: because I always forget Nancy did have sex with Keith

793
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 4: at the beginning, and then she wasn't allowed to be

794
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 4: with anybody else. And she was aware about Lauren, yeah,

795
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,360
Speaker 4: her daughter, and and the others and others.

796
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 2: Yes, okay, yeah, she em them, so she was eming

797
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:52,719
Speaker 2: them about like women would freak out. Who would be like,

798
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 2: I love this man, Why don't have to share him

799
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:57,239
Speaker 2: with fourteen other women at all times? Right?

800
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:00,359
Speaker 4: It's okay, okay, And then we won't even get into

801
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 4: this part. But meanwhile, if you watch the vow, there's

802
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 4: like a person being essentially kidnapped and held in their room.

803
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 2: So, yes, people, I didn't know. I thought she went

804
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 2: back to Mexico. Yeah, that's that's how out of the

805
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:12,719
Speaker 2: loop I was.

806
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:15,320
Speaker 1: So things are ramping up fast. Yeah.

807
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:18,320
Speaker 3: In the VOW, those conversation, if I remember correctly, those conversations

808
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 3: between you and Mark where you're like figuring it out.

809
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 1: Were those recorded? Yeah?

810
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:25,240
Speaker 2: Those were recorded because at that point Mark was recording everything.

811
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 2: He didn't know what side I was on, and you

812
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:31,359
Speaker 2: actually you actually hear it. There's one pause where like

813
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 2: you could hear me deciding whether or not to tell

814
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 2: them the truth or not. And I do thank god

815
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 2: I chose I chose the right team. Yeah, because I

816
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 2: was like, I could have gone back to Laura and

817
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 2: be like, oh my god, Mark knows everything, Like we

818
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:42,720
Speaker 2: got to be more careful.

819
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, wow, what do you think made you made you

820
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:47,719
Speaker 4: make that decision?

821
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:49,360
Speaker 1: I didn't want to be in it anymore.

822
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:52,560
Speaker 2: I knew it was I knew it was even before

823
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 2: Mark told me about the sex. I knew it wasn't good,

824
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 2: and I knew that I had to get out. And

825
00:36:57,560 --> 00:36:59,840
Speaker 2: I was actually plotting to like write to Nancy and

826
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,879
Speaker 2: anonymously and have her like I was trying to figure

827
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:04,920
Speaker 2: out other ways to blow it up. Yeah, and I

828
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:06,920
Speaker 2: was trying to blow up Doss. I didn't understand how

829
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:10,719
Speaker 2: deeply DOS was. And this is a look that something

830
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 2: I don't think that most people know. The Dos is

831
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:16,919
Speaker 2: what you know made the headlines. But I had somebody

832
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:18,760
Speaker 2: reach out to me after the New York Times article

833
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 2: came out a few months after we left, and she

834
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:23,319
Speaker 2: was like she had left a couple of years into

835
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,360
Speaker 2: my tenure there, so like I knew her she was gone,

836
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 2: and she was like she was part of the harem.

837
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:31,239
Speaker 2: She's like, your description of DOS minus the branding is

838
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:33,839
Speaker 2: what my life was like back then, like.

839
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:34,479
Speaker 1: A decade ago.

840
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 2: So you know, being having to be available on your phone,

841
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:39,759
Speaker 2: like you couldn't not answer your phone call from him

842
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:41,759
Speaker 2: any time of night, Like you couldn't have your phone off.

843
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 1: The diets.

844
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:46,799
Speaker 2: I didn't do the diet because I was pretty thin

845
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 2: at the time, but I also think I wasn't being

846
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:49,399
Speaker 2: groomed yet.

847
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 1: I don't know.

848
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 2: I don't actually know for sure, but I didn't have

849
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 2: to do the diet, but all the other things that

850
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:56,319
Speaker 2: the women were doing was her experience of NEXI him

851
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 2: back then. So I think what happened is that like

852
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 2: that's how we wanted his women to be, and he

853
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 2: just had to get more formalized with it, say we're

854
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 2: going to call it this, and there's vow and there's

855
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:06,879
Speaker 2: going to be collateral, and so like you can't leave,

856
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 2: like he really needed to.

857
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:09,439
Speaker 1: Secure because people did leave.

858
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,400
Speaker 2: People left, you know, people left in the night, like

859
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:15,960
Speaker 2: someone left, a woman left with his son in the night,

860
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 2: and she's like in hiding.

861
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:18,240
Speaker 1: Wow.

862
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:22,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, even before Nexium, as we referenced earlier, Keith tried

863
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 3: to make my mom sign a slave contract. Yeah, so

864
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:30,359
Speaker 3: he'd clearly been plotting this for years, years, and she

865
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:31,359
Speaker 3: was did they meet?

866
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,240
Speaker 1: I don't remember. I don't remember.

867
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:36,279
Speaker 3: I have to Well, when we have her background, we'll

868
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,799
Speaker 3: ask her. But how is my mom the forest Gump

869
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 3: of Colts anyway?

870
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 1: Hah?

871
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 3: She's like for real, but like the fact that he

872
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:46,759
Speaker 3: was plotting that like years before Nexium was even started,

873
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 3: although Nancy Saltzman was already in the picture. And then

874
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:51,279
Speaker 3: you know, she was like freaked out by that because

875
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 3: I think he gave it to her pretty early, and

876
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 3: I wonder, like he just clearly learning. Yeah, sorry, she

877
00:38:57,120 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 3: was freaked out by that, Yeah, and was like no,

878
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 3: but clearly he was like learning from what didn't work

879
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 3: and like what made people walk away if he did

880
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:07,799
Speaker 3: it too early, Like clearly he'd been plotting this for

881
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 3: many years.

882
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 4: Yes, terrifying evil man, evil evil man. Yes, I would

883
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:13,240
Speaker 4: love to.

884
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:17,439
Speaker 3: Touch on However, sustainctly you're able to just like what

885
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:21,280
Speaker 3: your journey after has been like and journeling and starting

886
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:21,840
Speaker 3: the podcast.

887
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, I mean the cliff notes and I've had

888
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:26,480
Speaker 2: to get better at this as I moved to Atlanta

889
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:27,799
Speaker 2: and meet people and they're like, wait, you.

890
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 1: Know what's your podcast about. I'm like, well, so we

891
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 1: got out.

892
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 2: There's a whole sort of like me living a double

893
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:39,359
Speaker 2: life as I didn't. I needed to get out and

894
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:41,719
Speaker 2: pull information and get people out before they could figure

895
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 2: out I was, you know, a defector. And that's all

896
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 2: very intense part of the book. Go to law enforcement,

897
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:48,719
Speaker 2: they didn't know what they're looking at. We end up

898
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:52,440
Speaker 2: going to the New York Times. That article sparaks the investigation.

899
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 1: All this time.

900
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:56,359
Speaker 2: They're saying Keith and nothing to do with it, Nothing

901
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:58,160
Speaker 2: to do with it. I guess the FBI's involved. They

902
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:01,799
Speaker 2: have transcripts of Keith's conversation with his slaves. That indictment

903
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:05,279
Speaker 2: is very clear that he orchestrated the whole thing.

904
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 1: He flees to Mexico.

905
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 2: A lot of people leave, some people double down saying

906
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 2: the FBI planted evidence. Then there's a trial, six week

907
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 2: trial for our deliberation he gets one hundred and twenty

908
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,400
Speaker 2: years in prison, five years probation. So that was very

909
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 2: satisfying victory. Victory rarely happens in this space. We're so

910
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 2: lucky that the judge saw it for what it was.

911
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:29,839
Speaker 2: A number of people went to prison. Everybody's out now

912
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:33,400
Speaker 2: except for Keith. Apparently he's like running his own little

913
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:34,840
Speaker 2: you know, stick in prison.

914
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:35,880
Speaker 1: That's not a huge surprise.

915
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 4: Oh I hope he Warren Jeff's out and just stops

916
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:40,719
Speaker 4: talking one day.

917
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:42,880
Speaker 2: Yeah don't. I don't know what's going to happen. I mean,

918
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:46,280
Speaker 2: he's just way too self involved to do that. But meanwhile,

919
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:48,200
Speaker 2: I go back to acting. I do some Hallmark movies.

920
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 2: Then COVID starts, so I don't act anymore, and we

921
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:54,880
Speaker 2: start a podcast about cults because we're already talking to

922
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:57,719
Speaker 2: you know, survivors and experts anyway, might as well record it.

923
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:03,759
Speaker 1: That becomes career, still doing it five years later. Three

924
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:04,239
Speaker 1: years ago.

925
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 2: We conceive of this because we wanted to put everything

926
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:09,279
Speaker 2: we'd learned into a book so that when people get

927
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 2: out and they say, oh my god, I just realized

928
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 2: I was in a cult, and you know, the vow

929
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:15,400
Speaker 2: saved my life or whatever scarred.

930
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:18,279
Speaker 1: I'm like, you need this book, and I don't know

931
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 1: about you.

932
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 2: Both, but I really felt like when we got out,

933
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:23,879
Speaker 2: my PCs was so bad. I couldn't read a lot

934
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 2: of the cult literature that was out there. I just

935
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:29,080
Speaker 2: couldn't even sit. I still don't read. I only do audible.

936
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:31,760
Speaker 2: So we did this book that's like really chunky, little

937
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:36,719
Speaker 2: little sections about very specific concepts gasoleting, narcissism, grooming, all

938
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:40,799
Speaker 2: the steps. And the idea was that anyone in any stage, before, during,

939
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 2: and after could have this book and get what they

940
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:45,319
Speaker 2: need from it, and maybe not the whole book, but

941
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 2: they could skip around.

942
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 1: And there's a book that I needed before.

943
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 2: I joined, I needed it when I was in there,

944
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:53,759
Speaker 2: I needed it when I got out, and I still use,

945
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 2: you know, some of the things I've learned in it.

946
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 2: But that was that brings us up to speed too.

947
00:41:58,080 --> 00:41:59,719
Speaker 2: And I'm trying to talk really fast just in case

948
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 2: the kids come home.

949
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 1: I live in Atlanta, I've got two boys.

950
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:06,480
Speaker 2: I'm in the cult of Spring baseball currently, which is

951
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:13,359
Speaker 2: a special thing, and I and I'm okay, and I'm

952
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:13,839
Speaker 2: doing all right.

953
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:16,719
Speaker 1: So that's a lot of a lot of we want

954
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 1: to hear, Yeah, what was.

955
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 2: My most Oh sorry, go on, please, I just gonna

956
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 2: say there's been a lot of ups and downs, a

957
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:24,000
Speaker 2: lot of waves, Like you know, times when I'm like, oh,

958
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 2: I'm healed, and then like I get slapped in the

959
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:28,240
Speaker 2: face with a new recognition that I'm definitely not healed.

960
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:30,279
Speaker 1: So I mean, today's a good day. But what were

961
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 1: you going to say?

962
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 4: How do you see cults evolving in the world of

963
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 4: algorithms online current times?

964
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 1: And how do we work with that?

965
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:42,280
Speaker 4: Yeah?

966
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:45,320
Speaker 2: I think the most dangerous thing about algorithms and AI

967
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 2: and like just Instagram or whatever is that if you're

968
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 2: following a certain thing, you get reinforced the thing. And

969
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 2: I think we know that, like with the extremism, and

970
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:56,400
Speaker 2: Nippy has a SoundBite I'm gonna I'm just gonna say

971
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 2: this is his, but he always says every group has

972
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 2: an extreme version of itself. You know, like there's kind

973
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 2: of normal orange theory and then there's like they're really

974
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:05,920
Speaker 2: serious orange theory people and those.

975
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:07,799
Speaker 1: People like like that's a little bit culty. Is it

976
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:08,359
Speaker 1: a full cult?

977
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 2: No, But like you know, there's I don't know how

978
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:13,239
Speaker 2: you feel about this, Lola, but there's like probably some

979
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:15,439
Speaker 2: people be like, oh, they're nice Mormons, and then there's

980
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:16,719
Speaker 2: like the Mormons.

981
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:18,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, Like the.

982
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:21,360
Speaker 2: Nice Mormons are probably benign and they're really sweet and

983
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:22,359
Speaker 2: they don'tdrink coffee or whatever.

984
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:24,760
Speaker 1: But like, yeah, there's variants.

985
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 2: But I think with the extreme stuff, it's so easy

986
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:31,839
Speaker 2: to be radicalized and your world. And I'm just going

987
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 2: to give a totally benign example. Did you guys watch

988
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 2: Heated Rivalry? Yeah?

989
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:37,400
Speaker 1: A little? Yeah? Did you watch it? Litla or no?

990
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 4: No?

991
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:39,240
Speaker 1: I still haven't.

992
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:45,160
Speaker 2: Okay, spoiler off topic, but I liked one particular meme

993
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 2: before I watched it. Then I watched it, and then

994
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:50,839
Speaker 2: like all my my whole feed is memes. And then

995
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:54,080
Speaker 2: in my world I'm thinking everyone's watching it because all

996
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 2: the people that I'm following are posting that, so that

997
00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 2: it must be a big thing. And then I meet

998
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:00,319
Speaker 2: someone who doesn't know what he rivals. I'm like, how

999
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:02,319
Speaker 2: do you not know what Heated Rivalry? Like? It's such

1000
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 2: a phenomenon. Whether you're like it or not, it doesn't matter.

1001
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:08,360
Speaker 2: But my point is is I think that the the

1002
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 2: Internet and the algorithm whatever is designed to they want

1003
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 2: they whatever they is, wants you to be aggravated and

1004
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 2: wants you to be mad.

1005
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:19,920
Speaker 1: So the clickbait and like, you know, this is happening.

1006
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:21,799
Speaker 2: All these people are coming to get you, and like

1007
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:25,160
Speaker 2: the US versus them, like black and white, red, blue,

1008
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 2: Democratic Republican. It's so divided and it's just like you're

1009
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 2: either this or you're this, And I think that is

1010
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 2: so problematic because there's like all this other nuance in

1011
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:39,920
Speaker 2: the middle, and we could have conversations, but you can't

1012
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:42,280
Speaker 2: because you're like using the wrong word or you're raising

1013
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:46,400
Speaker 2: the wrong flag, or you're like it's just so polarizing,

1014
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:48,279
Speaker 2: and I think that's it's just getting worse and worse

1015
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 2: and worse.

1016
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:59,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, agreed, Amen, Well, is there anything that you would

1017
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 3: like to add or I wish that people knew or

1018
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 3: wish that we had touched on.

1019
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:05,960
Speaker 2: You know, I think a lot of people listen to podcasts,

1020
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:07,960
Speaker 2: like I don't know your audience, but I know, certainly

1021
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:09,759
Speaker 2: for ours, there's lots of cult survivors, but there's also

1022
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 2: people that are just sort of fascinated and want to

1023
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 2: protect themselves or they're just rubber knacking or whatever. And

1024
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:18,879
Speaker 2: I think that the people who are listening and like, oh,

1025
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 2: you know that never happened to me. Like, obviously they're listening,

1026
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 2: so they're interested, but like have a little bit of

1027
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:26,440
Speaker 2: like I wouldn't fall for that kind of thing, right,

1028
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:29,799
Speaker 2: which I'm sure you've heard. You know, if you have that,

1029
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 2: then it's a blind spot because everybody is human and

1030
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:36,399
Speaker 2: everybody has susceptibilities or situational vulnerabilities, as we talk about

1031
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 2: in the book, where they're maybe at a crossroads or

1032
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:41,600
Speaker 2: they're having a bad day or divorce or whatever, and

1033
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:43,920
Speaker 2: that one person who has bad intentions inviting you to

1034
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:46,359
Speaker 2: a book club or wine tasting could be the first

1035
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:49,000
Speaker 2: step towards something a little bit culty if you don't.

1036
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:49,440
Speaker 1: Know what to look for.

1037
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 2: So, you know, we Nippin and I are very passionate

1038
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:55,239
Speaker 2: about teaching people the red flags and teaching people also

1039
00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 2: the green flags, because like you said at the beginning,

1040
00:45:57,239 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 2: I still I must be I'm a seekerst I must

1041
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:00,279
Speaker 2: stop up.

1042
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 4: You know, just not go to a book club, like

1043
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 4: you just have to look for the red flags and

1044
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:08,839
Speaker 4: see if it's a bad one. Yeah, everybody can join

1045
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:10,440
Speaker 4: a cult and everybody can get murdered.

1046
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:14,760
Speaker 1: Yes, yes this is this is true, This is very true.

1047
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:19,200
Speaker 3: But but healthy, healthy, community is possible and health health

1048
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:20,440
Speaker 3: connection as possible.

1049
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:23,360
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and it is possible to have a retreat

1050
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 2: that we start for cult survivors summer camp, Summer Summer

1051
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:35,040
Speaker 2: Survivor Camp. Okay, yes, s SC yeah, okay. Where can

1052
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:37,160
Speaker 2: people find your book right now? The best place to

1053
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:38,759
Speaker 2: get it is on Amazon or if you want to

1054
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:41,840
Speaker 2: signed copy, it's Sarahbinson dot com slash book and you

1055
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:45,040
Speaker 2: can sign copy from from Nippy and I there and

1056
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:47,840
Speaker 2: it will be out in bookstores and we're actually almost

1057
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:50,359
Speaker 2: on the audible. It's just taking a little while longer

1058
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:53,719
Speaker 2: than we thought to finish that. So yeah, that's where

1059
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:55,839
Speaker 2: you get the book, and I really want to get

1060
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:58,320
Speaker 2: it to also to young people before they go to college.

1061
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:01,040
Speaker 2: I think that's such a perfect age and that's partly

1062
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 2: why we wrote it the way we did, so that

1063
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 2: like a young person could digest it and not feel

1064
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:06,960
Speaker 2: like it's too heady with footnotes and stuff like that.

1065
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 2: So cool.

1066
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:10,839
Speaker 1: This was just a curriculum of high school working on it.

1067
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:12,839
Speaker 1: It would help people so much.

1068
00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:17,319
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, helping people get out of get in bad relationships,

1069
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:19,279
Speaker 4: like it's they need it.

1070
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, put it in the high schools. Yeah, all right,

1071
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:26,200
Speaker 2: high schools. We'll let you go be with your own children. Yeah,

1072
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:28,719
Speaker 2: but thanks so much for joining us. We've been waiting

1073
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:30,759
Speaker 2: for those for so long, and it's so great to you.

1074
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:33,520
Speaker 2: This was such a treat. You too, are awesome and

1075
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:35,400
Speaker 2: I feel like this. The more you know, more of

1076
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:36,920
Speaker 2: the marrier in this space. You know what I mean,

1077
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 2: like keep shining your lights and educating people you too.

1078
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you, Sarah. Well, Lolo, last week I asked

1079
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:48,000
Speaker 4: you if you would join Nexium. You said you would,

1080
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 4: and I believe you. Usually you asked me if I

1081
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:54,920
Speaker 4: would join something. I said last week that the older

1082
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:57,759
Speaker 4: I get, the more susceptible to Nexium and cults like yeah,

1083
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 4: I become. So I guess there's really no question for

1084
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:04,880
Speaker 4: us to ask this week. But go listen to their.

1085
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 1: Podcast and go read Sarah's book.

1086
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:11,799
Speaker 4: And as always, remember to follow your gut, watch out

1087
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 4: for red flags, and never ever trust me.

1088
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 3: This has been an exactly right production hosted by me Lola.

1089
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:26,200
Speaker 1: Blanc and me Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer is G. Holly.

1090
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:28,320
Speaker 1: This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

1091
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:31,800
Speaker 4: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker

1092
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:32,960
Speaker 4: is Patrick Kuttner.

1093
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 1: Our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1094
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Speaker 4: Trust Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth, Georgia hart

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Speaker 4: Stark and Daniell Kramer.

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Speaker 3: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast

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Speaker 3: or on TikTok at trust Me coult podcast.

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Speaker 4: Got your own story about cults, extreme belief, our manipulation,

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Speaker 4: Shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

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Speaker 3: Listen to trust Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 3: or wherever you get your podcasts