1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:21,076 Speaker 1: Pushkin Hello, hello Malcolm. Here, Before we get to the episode, 2 00:00:21,476 --> 00:00:23,076 Speaker 1: I want to let you know. You can get this 3 00:00:23,476 --> 00:00:28,636 Speaker 1: entire season now ad free by subscribing to Revisionist History 4 00:00:28,636 --> 00:00:31,356 Speaker 1: on Pushkin Plus. Sign up on the show page on 5 00:00:31,396 --> 00:00:36,676 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or at pushkin dot fm, slash Plus. Pushkin 6 00:00:36,716 --> 00:00:42,636 Speaker 1: Plus subscribers can access ad free episodes, full audiobooks, exclusive binges, 7 00:00:42,956 --> 00:00:45,356 Speaker 1: and bonus content for all Pushkin. 8 00:00:45,036 --> 00:00:53,196 Speaker 2: Shows previously on Revisionist History. 9 00:00:53,996 --> 00:00:55,396 Speaker 3: Thirty five years. 10 00:00:55,956 --> 00:01:01,116 Speaker 4: That's how long Elizabethsonnett's family waited for justice to occur. 11 00:01:02,116 --> 00:01:03,756 Speaker 5: He backhanded is child. 12 00:01:04,356 --> 00:01:05,796 Speaker 6: I don't want the child had done. 13 00:01:05,956 --> 00:01:08,196 Speaker 7: You just don't do that to a child across its faith. 14 00:01:09,196 --> 00:01:14,516 Speaker 3: Thirty five long years. And I entered the call, and 15 00:01:14,556 --> 00:01:18,356 Speaker 3: I got all the information on who done it, who 16 00:01:18,436 --> 00:01:21,236 Speaker 3: was all involved in all the particular. 17 00:01:21,836 --> 00:01:24,676 Speaker 7: The viciousness was there that he could do something like that. 18 00:01:24,716 --> 00:01:25,436 Speaker 3: I don't know who. 19 00:01:34,316 --> 00:01:37,596 Speaker 1: When Elizabeth Sennett was murdered, Patterson Hood, one of the 20 00:01:37,676 --> 00:01:40,316 Speaker 1: lead singers of the legendary Southern rock band the Drive 21 00:01:40,356 --> 00:01:42,476 Speaker 1: By Truckers, was living in the shoals. 22 00:01:43,356 --> 00:01:47,516 Speaker 5: Obviously, it was the big front page story for you know, 23 00:01:48,236 --> 00:01:52,796 Speaker 5: weeks because it was such a horrific Grizzly murderer and 24 00:01:53,116 --> 00:01:56,516 Speaker 5: all of the different As more details started coming out 25 00:01:56,556 --> 00:02:00,596 Speaker 5: about it, you know, it just kept getting worse and worse. 26 00:02:01,116 --> 00:02:03,876 Speaker 1: He was twenty four working at a pharmacy in Florence, 27 00:02:04,236 --> 00:02:05,316 Speaker 1: looking for a way out. 28 00:02:06,196 --> 00:02:10,036 Speaker 5: They closed the Ford Plant in nineteen eighty two, which 29 00:02:10,156 --> 00:02:12,716 Speaker 5: was the year I graduated from high school. And when 30 00:02:12,716 --> 00:02:15,836 Speaker 5: it was gone, not only was it gone, but then 31 00:02:15,916 --> 00:02:20,076 Speaker 5: all these other businesses it depended on people who made 32 00:02:20,116 --> 00:02:23,396 Speaker 5: the money working at the Forward Plant. That stuff started going. 33 00:02:23,556 --> 00:02:27,356 Speaker 5: It's really bounced back in the last last fifteen to 34 00:02:27,436 --> 00:02:31,276 Speaker 5: twenty years. The town's almost unrecognizable because of all the 35 00:02:31,396 --> 00:02:34,276 Speaker 5: really positive things that have happened. But in eighty eight 36 00:02:34,356 --> 00:02:35,716 Speaker 5: it was pretty fucking grim. 37 00:02:36,676 --> 00:02:38,956 Speaker 1: Years went by, and the story of what happened to 38 00:02:38,996 --> 00:02:40,596 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Senna stayed with him. 39 00:02:41,236 --> 00:02:43,036 Speaker 5: I don't know why it resonated with me, but I 40 00:02:43,156 --> 00:02:46,076 Speaker 5: first started writing it thinking in terms of writing it 41 00:02:46,116 --> 00:02:50,036 Speaker 5: more as like a short story or a book or 42 00:02:50,076 --> 00:02:53,396 Speaker 5: something like that, and I kind of wrote it in 43 00:02:53,516 --> 00:02:57,356 Speaker 5: that form, and then at some point started and turning 44 00:02:57,396 --> 00:02:58,156 Speaker 5: it into a song. 45 00:02:58,996 --> 00:03:02,076 Speaker 1: The song was called The Fireplace Poker. He released it 46 00:03:02,276 --> 00:03:04,196 Speaker 1: on the album Go Go Boots, which came out in 47 00:03:04,196 --> 00:03:06,476 Speaker 1: twenty eleven, maybe you've heard. 48 00:03:06,276 --> 00:03:13,196 Speaker 2: It before, God. 49 00:03:17,316 --> 00:03:22,796 Speaker 7: And answered, make it. 50 00:03:24,356 --> 00:03:24,556 Speaker 5: Right. 51 00:03:27,516 --> 00:03:30,876 Speaker 1: Pattison Hood got his inspiration from one of the regulars 52 00:03:30,916 --> 00:03:34,396 Speaker 1: in that Florence drug store. A local police officer told 53 00:03:34,476 --> 00:03:36,956 Speaker 1: him back in nineteen eighty eight he was a. 54 00:03:36,996 --> 00:03:40,196 Speaker 5: Chief of police in Florence, and so he was all 55 00:03:40,276 --> 00:03:44,676 Speaker 5: up in any police business anywhere in the area, whether 56 00:03:44,716 --> 00:03:47,116 Speaker 5: it was in his jurisdiction or not. So he would 57 00:03:47,116 --> 00:03:50,676 Speaker 5: come in and just talk about stuff, and it was 58 00:03:50,796 --> 00:03:56,396 Speaker 5: interesting to hear for sure. He hearized really early on 59 00:03:56,756 --> 00:04:01,556 Speaker 5: that it wasn't like it was like it was supposed 60 00:04:01,556 --> 00:04:02,796 Speaker 5: to be looking like it was. 61 00:04:03,756 --> 00:04:06,956 Speaker 1: What everyone first thought was that Elizabeth Sennatt had been 62 00:04:07,036 --> 00:04:11,276 Speaker 1: murdered by two local kids, Smith and John Force Parker. 63 00:04:11,836 --> 00:04:14,196 Speaker 1: They were the ones who drove out to Kondogs Cemetery 64 00:04:14,276 --> 00:04:17,796 Speaker 1: Road on that March morning. It was Parker's knife found 65 00:04:17,796 --> 00:04:20,876 Speaker 1: in a pond behind the house. They confessed. They were 66 00:04:20,956 --> 00:04:24,236 Speaker 1: charged with capital murder. Everything that would happen in the 67 00:04:24,276 --> 00:04:26,876 Speaker 1: Senate case over the course of the next thirty five years, 68 00:04:27,316 --> 00:04:31,236 Speaker 1: the controversies, the outrage, the moral calamity that would ultimately 69 00:04:31,276 --> 00:04:34,036 Speaker 1: take place in home and prison, was based on the 70 00:04:34,076 --> 00:04:38,396 Speaker 1: assumption that the justice system in Alabama had correctly determined 71 00:04:38,716 --> 00:04:43,356 Speaker 1: who was responsible for what happened that morning, namely, Charles 72 00:04:43,396 --> 00:04:46,556 Speaker 1: Sennett was the mastermind who ordered the hit on his wife, 73 00:04:46,916 --> 00:04:51,036 Speaker 1: and Parker and Smith were the killers. But that's not 74 00:04:51,556 --> 00:04:53,996 Speaker 1: what the Florence police chief told Patterson. 75 00:04:53,996 --> 00:05:09,716 Speaker 7: Hood found five was fall from grasp. 76 00:05:10,436 --> 00:05:11,356 Speaker 3: Still she. 77 00:05:12,876 --> 00:05:20,396 Speaker 7: Tried. No one ever know what she told him, No 78 00:05:20,796 --> 00:05:30,876 Speaker 7: way told her the rare and is biden fifteen wax 79 00:05:31,676 --> 00:05:33,156 Speaker 7: fireplace poker. 80 00:05:35,476 --> 00:05:38,796 Speaker 1: The Reverend came home from work and found the missus dying. 81 00:05:39,436 --> 00:05:42,356 Speaker 1: Life was falling from her grasp, But still she lay 82 00:05:42,396 --> 00:05:46,636 Speaker 1: there trying. No one will ever know what she told him, 83 00:05:47,076 --> 00:05:50,356 Speaker 1: or know what he told her, because the Reverend did 84 00:05:50,356 --> 00:05:57,516 Speaker 1: his wife in fifteen whacks fireplace poker. Wait, the Reverend 85 00:05:57,836 --> 00:05:58,276 Speaker 1: did his. 86 00:05:58,196 --> 00:05:58,636 Speaker 3: Wife in. 87 00:06:03,916 --> 00:06:06,636 Speaker 1: My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to my podcast 88 00:06:06,676 --> 00:06:11,396 Speaker 1: about Things Overlooked and Misunderstood. This episode of the Alabama 89 00:06:11,476 --> 00:06:14,876 Speaker 1: Murders is about the trial of John Forest Parker, one 90 00:06:14,876 --> 00:06:17,036 Speaker 1: of the three young men charged in the killing of 91 00:06:17,076 --> 00:06:20,676 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Sennett, and all of the ways that the catastrophe 92 00:06:20,676 --> 00:06:23,916 Speaker 1: that unfolded in the shoals the failure cascades set in 93 00:06:23,996 --> 00:06:27,836 Speaker 1: motion by the murder could have been averted. The counterfactual 94 00:06:27,956 --> 00:06:35,276 Speaker 1: version of events, the what ifs episode three a peculiar institution. 95 00:06:51,396 --> 00:06:56,716 Speaker 3: I've had, you know, other cases that technically we're probably 96 00:06:57,316 --> 00:07:03,796 Speaker 3: factually more complex, but this is, Yeah, this is the 97 00:07:03,836 --> 00:07:07,956 Speaker 3: one that I will is still on my mind even 98 00:07:07,996 --> 00:07:08,876 Speaker 3: without chilcoming. 99 00:07:10,116 --> 00:07:14,676 Speaker 1: Tom Hefflin was John Forrest Parker's attorney. He remembers exactly 100 00:07:14,676 --> 00:07:16,956 Speaker 1: where he was today Elizabeth Sennett was murdered. 101 00:07:18,076 --> 00:07:20,956 Speaker 3: I had been to Red Bay, Alabama, which is on 102 00:07:20,956 --> 00:07:25,556 Speaker 3: the Mississippi border, down the same highway where this happened. 103 00:07:25,676 --> 00:07:30,756 Speaker 3: I may well have seen John Forrest Parker and Kenny 104 00:07:30,756 --> 00:07:33,156 Speaker 3: Smith in their car. I don't know that for a fact, 105 00:07:33,156 --> 00:07:36,676 Speaker 3: but it might well add Then I got the call 106 00:07:38,756 --> 00:07:41,236 Speaker 3: that the court was going to appoint me and Gene 107 00:07:41,276 --> 00:07:42,836 Speaker 3: Handby to represent. 108 00:07:43,196 --> 00:07:46,436 Speaker 1: Heflin is the son of the former US Senator from Alabama, 109 00:07:46,676 --> 00:07:50,276 Speaker 1: Howell Heflin. In his living room, Heflin has a portrait 110 00:07:50,316 --> 00:07:52,716 Speaker 1: of his famous father, and father and son looked very 111 00:07:52,756 --> 00:07:56,596 Speaker 1: much alike. The Heflins have large leonine heads and the 112 00:07:56,716 --> 00:08:01,236 Speaker 1: kind of rumbling southern gravitas. So you were quart appointed attorneys. 113 00:08:00,876 --> 00:08:01,996 Speaker 3: Quarter pointed attorneys? 114 00:08:02,076 --> 00:08:02,476 Speaker 8: Yeah? 115 00:08:02,596 --> 00:08:05,116 Speaker 1: Yeah, how much of your practice would have been that 116 00:08:05,236 --> 00:08:06,956 Speaker 1: kind of work in those days. 117 00:08:08,156 --> 00:08:09,516 Speaker 3: Zero usual. 118 00:08:10,476 --> 00:08:13,076 Speaker 1: So how did it come about? 119 00:08:14,716 --> 00:08:17,316 Speaker 3: I think we'd had a string of capital murder cases, 120 00:08:17,596 --> 00:08:21,596 Speaker 3: and you know, everybody kind of is expected to serve. 121 00:08:24,956 --> 00:08:27,596 Speaker 1: Parker's trial took place in May of nineteen eighty nine 122 00:08:27,756 --> 00:08:31,956 Speaker 1: at the Cobra County Courthouse, a graceful white neoclassical building 123 00:08:32,276 --> 00:08:34,476 Speaker 1: on the town square in the center of Tuscumbia. 124 00:08:35,436 --> 00:08:39,036 Speaker 3: All right, we're at the Copper County Courthouse. If we 125 00:08:39,076 --> 00:08:45,676 Speaker 3: look across, you see a three story building with a 126 00:08:45,796 --> 00:08:49,076 Speaker 3: razor wire around it in a fence. That's the county jail. 127 00:08:49,556 --> 00:08:52,076 Speaker 1: Heflin gave my colleague Ben Adaf Haffrey a tour of 128 00:08:52,076 --> 00:08:52,676 Speaker 1: the courthouse. 129 00:08:53,596 --> 00:08:55,076 Speaker 3: We don't have full life. 130 00:08:59,276 --> 00:09:01,876 Speaker 1: The courtroom was small, gray and white. On the wall, 131 00:09:01,916 --> 00:09:03,876 Speaker 1: there's a portrait of the judge in the Parker case 132 00:09:04,316 --> 00:09:07,036 Speaker 1: inga Johnson, long blonde hair, blue eyes. 133 00:09:08,076 --> 00:09:11,476 Speaker 3: So where did you guys there? And so the jury 134 00:09:11,676 --> 00:09:16,236 Speaker 3: box that's interesting, it sort of faces the judge food 135 00:09:16,276 --> 00:09:23,276 Speaker 3: boxes there. Witness would be there, Court Clark over there, obviously, 136 00:09:23,396 --> 00:09:26,596 Speaker 3: judge court reporter here, like some of the jurors would 137 00:09:26,596 --> 00:09:28,836 Speaker 3: have had like a direct view of John like from 138 00:09:28,916 --> 00:09:32,076 Speaker 3: feet away. Yeah, he would have been probably, we probably 139 00:09:32,116 --> 00:09:34,476 Speaker 3: would have sat him there. I think we did well 140 00:09:35,076 --> 00:09:37,796 Speaker 3: inside where we blocked him off to a certain extent. 141 00:09:38,076 --> 00:09:39,756 Speaker 3: Why do you want to block him off, Well, he 142 00:09:39,876 --> 00:09:46,476 Speaker 3: is shackled, you know, that's basically I just don't want 143 00:09:46,516 --> 00:09:51,316 Speaker 3: to emphasize that he is a prisoner at that point, 144 00:09:51,836 --> 00:09:53,076 Speaker 3: even everybody knows he is. 145 00:09:55,076 --> 00:09:59,476 Speaker 1: Most criminal trials, particularly older ones, don't have an audio 146 00:09:59,596 --> 00:10:03,196 Speaker 1: or video record. There's just a transcript created by the 147 00:10:03,196 --> 00:10:06,916 Speaker 1: court reporter. The transcripts can run for thousands of pages, 148 00:10:07,196 --> 00:10:11,316 Speaker 1: and they're their own unique literary Because there's no description 149 00:10:11,996 --> 00:10:16,836 Speaker 1: or elaboration or context. They read us flat banal. It 150 00:10:16,916 --> 00:10:18,796 Speaker 1: takes a little bit of time to learn how to 151 00:10:18,916 --> 00:10:22,236 Speaker 1: use your imagination to fill in the empty spaces. And 152 00:10:22,276 --> 00:10:25,276 Speaker 1: in the case of John Parker, what becomes clear when 153 00:10:25,276 --> 00:10:27,916 Speaker 1: you learn how to fill in those empty spaces is 154 00:10:27,916 --> 00:10:37,596 Speaker 1: that the prosecution's case was really, really weak. The state's 155 00:10:37,596 --> 00:10:40,676 Speaker 1: problem started with Parker sitting there in the docket a 156 00:10:40,716 --> 00:10:43,876 Speaker 1: few feet from the jurors. This was a case about 157 00:10:43,916 --> 00:10:47,356 Speaker 1: a murder for hire, a contract killer, and he just 158 00:10:47,476 --> 00:10:50,796 Speaker 1: didn't look the part of a contract killer. Tell us 159 00:10:50,796 --> 00:10:51,876 Speaker 1: about Parker. 160 00:10:52,076 --> 00:11:01,196 Speaker 3: Parker was like eighteen. Actually a good family, solid people. 161 00:11:01,636 --> 00:11:06,756 Speaker 3: He had had some prior childhood trauma that I think 162 00:11:06,996 --> 00:11:10,756 Speaker 3: probably created a little mittal. He had some drug problems. 163 00:11:11,756 --> 00:11:17,196 Speaker 1: Tell me more about your impressions of him. 164 00:11:17,476 --> 00:11:20,076 Speaker 3: A kid who had been drugged out and didn't know 165 00:11:20,116 --> 00:11:21,116 Speaker 3: what they were doing. 166 00:11:22,356 --> 00:11:25,436 Speaker 1: John Forest Parker had been arrested on multiple occasions for 167 00:11:25,596 --> 00:11:30,316 Speaker 1: minor crimes, breaking into cars, stealing gas. It failed ninth 168 00:11:30,356 --> 00:11:34,076 Speaker 1: grade three times. In one of his psychiatric evaluations done 169 00:11:34,116 --> 00:11:38,476 Speaker 1: after one of his previous arrests, there's this quote. John's 170 00:11:38,556 --> 00:11:42,236 Speaker 1: childhood history includes a brain concussion at the age of two. 171 00:11:43,076 --> 00:11:47,196 Speaker 1: He reportedly was unconscious for thirty six hours following his concussion. 172 00:11:48,316 --> 00:11:51,636 Speaker 1: His parents reported that due to his brain concussion, they 173 00:11:51,636 --> 00:11:59,196 Speaker 1: had not expected very much of John. On the drive 174 00:11:59,236 --> 00:12:02,876 Speaker 1: to Coondog Cemetery Road on the morning of Elizabeth sentence murder, 175 00:12:03,396 --> 00:12:05,876 Speaker 1: Parker and Smith had a bottle of whiskey between them 176 00:12:05,876 --> 00:12:09,396 Speaker 1: on the front seat. Parker injected himself with a healthy 177 00:12:09,476 --> 00:12:12,436 Speaker 1: dose of opioids. On the way over, Charles Sennitt gave 178 00:12:12,476 --> 00:12:14,756 Speaker 1: them some money to buy a gun. They used it 179 00:12:14,796 --> 00:12:18,836 Speaker 1: to buy drugs instead. In every description of the crime, 180 00:12:19,356 --> 00:12:23,996 Speaker 1: they come across as completely clueless. Parker is nineteen, Smith 181 00:12:24,196 --> 00:12:28,396 Speaker 1: twenty two. They're so lackadaisical that after beating and stabbing 182 00:12:28,396 --> 00:12:31,436 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Sennet, they threw the knife and the walking stick 183 00:12:31,516 --> 00:12:34,876 Speaker 1: they used into the pond behind her house, when there 184 00:12:34,916 --> 00:12:38,396 Speaker 1: are literally thousands of acres of wooded wilderness on the 185 00:12:38,476 --> 00:12:41,436 Speaker 1: drive back home where something could be thrown away and 186 00:12:41,476 --> 00:12:46,276 Speaker 1: it would never ever be found. Yes, Parker and Smith 187 00:12:46,836 --> 00:12:50,196 Speaker 1: heard Elizabeth Senne badly and took money to commit acts 188 00:12:50,196 --> 00:12:53,316 Speaker 1: of violence. But when we hear the phrase contract killers, 189 00:12:53,556 --> 00:12:58,556 Speaker 1: we think of assassins, mafia hitman Stone called hard bitten lethal, 190 00:12:59,396 --> 00:13:05,796 Speaker 1: These were screwed up kids. One of the biggest points 191 00:13:05,796 --> 00:13:09,316 Speaker 1: of weakness for the prosecution emerged d in the testimony 192 00:13:09,396 --> 00:13:11,476 Speaker 1: of the surgeon who was on duty at Helen Keller 193 00:13:11,516 --> 00:13:15,396 Speaker 1: Hospital when Elizabeth Senate was brought into the er, David 194 00:13:15,476 --> 00:13:18,716 Speaker 1: Parkes McKinley. He was the one who first saw her injuries, 195 00:13:19,076 --> 00:13:21,556 Speaker 1: who tried to save her life, who pronounced her dead. 196 00:13:22,196 --> 00:13:25,396 Speaker 1: The direct examination by the prosecutor is brief and to 197 00:13:25,436 --> 00:13:29,076 Speaker 1: the point. The police had found a knife, a hunting knife, 198 00:13:29,276 --> 00:13:32,076 Speaker 1: in the pond behind the Senate house. This was a 199 00:13:32,156 --> 00:13:34,956 Speaker 1: knife that both Smith and Parker admitted to bringing with 200 00:13:35,076 --> 00:13:39,516 Speaker 1: them to Koondok Cemetery Road. The prosecution just wanted to 201 00:13:39,676 --> 00:13:47,796 Speaker 1: establish the connection between that knife and Elizabeth Sennett's death. Question, doctor, 202 00:13:48,156 --> 00:13:50,876 Speaker 1: can you tell us what you recall about her physical appearance? 203 00:13:51,796 --> 00:13:52,156 Speaker 3: Answer? 204 00:13:52,716 --> 00:13:56,516 Speaker 1: The most striking thing was a multiple stab wounds, particularly 205 00:13:56,556 --> 00:13:58,996 Speaker 1: over the right side of the chest and at the 206 00:13:59,036 --> 00:14:02,356 Speaker 1: base of the neck. There were also some wounds of 207 00:14:02,436 --> 00:14:06,676 Speaker 1: the forehead and scalp. McKinney testified that the cuts on 208 00:14:06,716 --> 00:14:09,236 Speaker 1: the forehead and scalp looked like they were from a 209 00:14:09,236 --> 00:14:13,076 Speaker 1: blunt object. The wounds to the chest and neck were 210 00:14:13,116 --> 00:14:16,036 Speaker 1: caused by a knife. He went on to say, it 211 00:14:16,156 --> 00:14:18,356 Speaker 1: is likely that the chest wounds were by and large 212 00:14:18,436 --> 00:14:23,476 Speaker 1: the cause of her death. Prosecutor thank you doctor. That's 213 00:14:23,516 --> 00:14:29,476 Speaker 1: all halflin knew the prosecution was calling McKinley, so he 214 00:14:29,516 --> 00:14:31,076 Speaker 1: did a little homework beforehand. 215 00:14:31,796 --> 00:14:37,516 Speaker 3: We're starting trial on the Tuesday following Memorial Day. I 216 00:14:37,596 --> 00:14:44,796 Speaker 3: know they're calling state medical examiner was coming up testify 217 00:14:44,916 --> 00:14:48,596 Speaker 3: what the fate wounds were describing. Then they were bringing 218 00:14:48,876 --> 00:14:52,436 Speaker 3: the doctor who treated her in the emergency room there, 219 00:14:53,276 --> 00:14:56,596 Speaker 3: and I called up the doctor and said, what are 220 00:14:56,636 --> 00:15:00,316 Speaker 3: you going to say tomorrow? And we talked about and 221 00:15:00,396 --> 00:15:01,636 Speaker 3: visited kind knew each other. 222 00:15:03,396 --> 00:15:06,076 Speaker 1: What the doctor told him made Heflin realize he could 223 00:15:06,156 --> 00:15:09,436 Speaker 1: lay a trap. So in court, Hefflin gets up and 224 00:15:09,436 --> 00:15:15,356 Speaker 1: a cross examination asks McKinley about the knife. Question, have 225 00:15:15,476 --> 00:15:17,556 Speaker 1: you ever been shown the knife that the state removed 226 00:15:17,556 --> 00:15:20,956 Speaker 1: from the pond in this case? Answer? I have not 227 00:15:21,076 --> 00:15:25,356 Speaker 1: seen it, no, sir. Heflin turns to the prosecutors. Do 228 00:15:25,436 --> 00:15:28,476 Speaker 1: y'all have the knife? This is one of those moments 229 00:15:28,556 --> 00:15:31,396 Speaker 1: when the transcript is of little help. You have to 230 00:15:31,436 --> 00:15:35,516 Speaker 1: fill in the empty space. The prosecutors are anxious. They 231 00:15:35,556 --> 00:15:38,516 Speaker 1: thought the identity of the murder weapon was a settled fact, 232 00:15:39,236 --> 00:15:42,916 Speaker 1: So why does Hefflin want McKinley to see it? They hesitate. 233 00:15:43,476 --> 00:15:47,316 Speaker 1: The judge immediately intervenes, Can I see y'all at the bench. 234 00:15:48,076 --> 00:15:51,076 Speaker 1: Both sides huddle with the judge. The judge says to Hefflin, 235 00:15:51,316 --> 00:15:54,436 Speaker 1: do you just want to show him the knife? Hefflin says, 236 00:15:54,516 --> 00:15:58,196 Speaker 1: uh huh. The judge turns to the prosecutor, why don't 237 00:15:58,196 --> 00:16:02,356 Speaker 1: you get it? More hesitation from the prosecutors. The judge 238 00:16:02,356 --> 00:16:06,676 Speaker 1: repeats herself, y'all go get it. The prosecutor's rummage in 239 00:16:06,716 --> 00:16:10,076 Speaker 1: their evidence box, take it out. Heflin hands it to 240 00:16:10,116 --> 00:16:13,076 Speaker 1: the doctor. I asked Heflin to read aloud from the 241 00:16:13,076 --> 00:16:17,036 Speaker 1: trial transcripts from the crucial moment of his exchange with McKinley. 242 00:16:17,436 --> 00:16:22,116 Speaker 3: You saw the wounds inflicted on miss fresh when she 243 00:16:22,276 --> 00:16:26,076 Speaker 3: came in host, didn't you, Yes, sir as said examining 244 00:16:26,116 --> 00:16:28,636 Speaker 3: that knife, do you have any opinion whether or not 245 00:16:28,996 --> 00:16:32,156 Speaker 3: that was the instrument that could have inflicted those wounds? 246 00:16:32,756 --> 00:16:35,236 Speaker 1: And McKinley answers, simply. 247 00:16:35,196 --> 00:16:38,396 Speaker 3: I would frankly be surprised this was the knife based 248 00:16:38,396 --> 00:16:41,436 Speaker 3: on what I saw, or the sharp project based on 249 00:16:41,556 --> 00:16:45,996 Speaker 3: what I saw on the patient. I don't have any 250 00:16:45,996 --> 00:16:46,796 Speaker 3: further questions. 251 00:16:49,236 --> 00:16:53,596 Speaker 1: The government's own witness testifies that the alleged murder weapon 252 00:16:54,236 --> 00:16:57,236 Speaker 1: isn't actually the murder weapon. The chest wounds are of 253 00:16:57,276 --> 00:17:01,636 Speaker 1: a much smaller knife, Yes, that was. The neck wounds 254 00:17:02,396 --> 00:17:05,956 Speaker 1: are consistent with the large knife that Kenny and John have. 255 00:17:06,436 --> 00:17:08,836 Speaker 1: The chest wounds, which are the fatal wounds, seem to 256 00:17:08,836 --> 00:17:10,956 Speaker 1: be made by a smaller knife, and we can't find 257 00:17:10,956 --> 00:17:15,116 Speaker 1: the smaller knife. That's right from there, you would think 258 00:17:15,756 --> 00:17:20,236 Speaker 1: the reasonable doubts grow were Kenny Smith and John Parker 259 00:17:20,836 --> 00:17:24,516 Speaker 1: actually the ones who stabbed Elizabeth Sennate to death. The 260 00:17:24,596 --> 00:17:28,596 Speaker 1: pathologist who conducted the autopsy on Elizabeth Sennett's body testifies 261 00:17:29,316 --> 00:17:34,396 Speaker 1: she described sentence chess wounds as rapidly fatal. When asked 262 00:17:34,396 --> 00:17:38,356 Speaker 1: about this by prosecutors, she said bluntly, I don't think 263 00:17:38,396 --> 00:17:42,516 Speaker 1: she lived very long after those wounds were inflicted. Once again, 264 00:17:43,356 --> 00:17:47,396 Speaker 1: one of the government's own witnesses undermines their case. Think 265 00:17:47,476 --> 00:17:51,356 Speaker 1: about the timing. At eleven forty four in the morning, 266 00:17:51,836 --> 00:17:55,596 Speaker 1: Charles Sennett calls Ronnie May in hysterics to report that 267 00:17:55,636 --> 00:17:59,316 Speaker 1: his wife has been attacked. At twelve fifteen, the paramedics 268 00:17:59,316 --> 00:18:02,596 Speaker 1: discover that Elizabeth Senate has a pulse. At one pm, 269 00:18:02,836 --> 00:18:07,076 Speaker 1: she arrives at Helen Keller Hospital and she's still alive. McKinley, 270 00:18:07,076 --> 00:18:10,436 Speaker 1: in fact, doesn't pronounce her as dead until two five, 271 00:18:11,036 --> 00:18:15,156 Speaker 1: a full hour later. But according to the prosecution's own 272 00:18:15,196 --> 00:18:18,596 Speaker 1: witness John Parker and Kenny Smith were back home in 273 00:18:18,716 --> 00:18:21,956 Speaker 1: Florence by eleven thirty that morning. It's a thirty to 274 00:18:21,996 --> 00:18:25,796 Speaker 1: forty minute drive from Coondog Cemetery Road to Florence and 275 00:18:25,876 --> 00:18:30,116 Speaker 1: it's pouring rain outside. Timing doesn't work. They must have 276 00:18:30,196 --> 00:18:32,756 Speaker 1: left the Senate's house by at least eleven. There's no 277 00:18:32,836 --> 00:18:36,596 Speaker 1: way Parker and Smith could have inflicted rapidly fatal wounds 278 00:18:36,636 --> 00:18:38,996 Speaker 1: at mid morning if she was still alive at two 279 00:18:39,036 --> 00:18:43,356 Speaker 1: o'clock in the afternoon, meaning Smith and Parker must have 280 00:18:43,436 --> 00:18:46,316 Speaker 1: been long gone by the time the fatal wounds were inflicted. 281 00:18:50,036 --> 00:18:52,956 Speaker 1: Later in the trial, another pathologist who had examined the 282 00:18:52,956 --> 00:18:58,356 Speaker 1: Senate autopsy made the same point. Here is heflin questioning him? 283 00:18:58,836 --> 00:19:02,076 Speaker 1: Question if the evidence in this case shows that the 284 00:19:02,156 --> 00:19:06,076 Speaker 1: Cherokee Rescue squad detected a heartbeat on Missus Senate at 285 00:19:06,116 --> 00:19:10,356 Speaker 1: approximately twelve to fifteen pm on March eighteen, nineteen eighty eight, 286 00:19:10,836 --> 00:19:14,076 Speaker 1: Based upon your years of experience as a pathologist and 287 00:19:14,156 --> 00:19:17,156 Speaker 1: your review of the exhibits that you just named, do 288 00:19:17,236 --> 00:19:19,796 Speaker 1: you have an opinion as to what time prior to 289 00:19:19,836 --> 00:19:25,036 Speaker 1: twelve fifteen pm the fatal wounds were delivered? Answer within 290 00:19:25,076 --> 00:19:30,916 Speaker 1: a very few minutes. The judge, the jury, the lawyers 291 00:19:30,916 --> 00:19:34,436 Speaker 1: on both sides, the journalists covering the trial are all 292 00:19:34,476 --> 00:19:39,956 Speaker 1: listening to this testimony with its unmistakable implication someone else 293 00:19:40,236 --> 00:19:42,796 Speaker 1: must have stabbed Elizabeth Sennett in the chest with a 294 00:19:42,836 --> 00:19:45,916 Speaker 1: smaller knife, and who was the only person at the 295 00:19:45,916 --> 00:19:47,516 Speaker 1: house at the time of the nine one one call 296 00:19:48,556 --> 00:19:52,316 Speaker 1: Charles Sennet. If Senate does it, the timing makes a 297 00:19:52,356 --> 00:19:55,396 Speaker 1: lot more sense. He shows up after they've left, Stabs 298 00:19:55,476 --> 00:19:58,436 Speaker 1: calls Stabs and calls. 299 00:19:58,116 --> 00:20:07,716 Speaker 3: Yeah, or even had called and then yeah. 300 00:20:05,396 --> 00:20:09,116 Speaker 1: A knife that doesn't fit, a timeline that makes no sense. 301 00:20:10,036 --> 00:20:12,476 Speaker 1: And if the jury still had any lingering doubts about 302 00:20:12,556 --> 00:20:14,036 Speaker 1: Charles Sennett's culpability. 303 00:20:14,396 --> 00:20:15,396 Speaker 3: There was also what they. 304 00:20:15,396 --> 00:20:18,716 Speaker 1: Heard from Elizabeth Sennett's friend who had a front row 305 00:20:18,796 --> 00:20:23,116 Speaker 1: seat to the inner life of her marriage. That's after 306 00:20:23,156 --> 00:20:40,276 Speaker 1: the break. Susan Moseley was a nurse at a weight 307 00:20:40,316 --> 00:20:44,156 Speaker 1: loss clinic in Muscle Shoals. Elizabeth Senate was one of 308 00:20:44,156 --> 00:20:45,276 Speaker 1: her patients. 309 00:20:45,796 --> 00:20:56,276 Speaker 6: And I noticed she was extremely why introbility, no self staying. 310 00:20:57,916 --> 00:20:59,236 Speaker 6: What was a brilliant. 311 00:20:59,796 --> 00:21:03,756 Speaker 1: Moseley sat down with a local reporter named Lee Hedgebeth, 312 00:21:03,996 --> 00:21:06,236 Speaker 1: who has written about the Senate case and did some 313 00:21:06,316 --> 00:21:09,516 Speaker 1: interviews for us. She shared with him what she remembered 314 00:21:09,516 --> 00:21:12,116 Speaker 1: about Elizabeth in the months leading up to the murder. 315 00:21:12,956 --> 00:21:16,756 Speaker 6: So she would come once a we to the Planic 316 00:21:17,316 --> 00:21:19,676 Speaker 6: and I would boil her. I would weigh her to 317 00:21:19,716 --> 00:21:22,916 Speaker 6: her blood pressure, talk to her about okay, how's your 318 00:21:22,956 --> 00:21:23,316 Speaker 6: wait doing. 319 00:21:23,916 --> 00:21:27,156 Speaker 1: Mosey said that. Elizabeth said it didn't seem happy. She 320 00:21:27,196 --> 00:21:29,996 Speaker 1: would sit in the waiting room with a napkin crushed 321 00:21:29,996 --> 00:21:36,356 Speaker 1: in her fist. One day, Mosey decided to confront her. 322 00:21:37,756 --> 00:21:42,796 Speaker 6: And I said, Liz, and listen to him. You've been 323 00:21:42,876 --> 00:21:46,236 Speaker 6: going up and down and wait. So I'm going to 324 00:21:46,636 --> 00:21:51,076 Speaker 6: close this chart and I'm just gonna turn it down. 325 00:21:51,156 --> 00:21:54,476 Speaker 6: Lunch shut miles, puggade bread and how about you he 326 00:21:54,596 --> 00:22:00,076 Speaker 6: close your eyes and just tell me what you think. 327 00:22:01,556 --> 00:22:05,116 Speaker 6: It's the biggest problem. If you eat coctato, ships will 328 00:22:05,116 --> 00:22:07,796 Speaker 6: holly we every night we'll get baked one. So we 329 00:22:07,836 --> 00:22:10,396 Speaker 6: will do something to just let me know. And I 330 00:22:10,796 --> 00:22:12,556 Speaker 6: never need no bus. And I had the chair Russell 331 00:22:13,516 --> 00:22:18,316 Speaker 6: and I still every shovel and she said I need 332 00:22:18,316 --> 00:22:18,636 Speaker 6: a dope. 333 00:22:20,156 --> 00:22:23,316 Speaker 9: Open your eyes, she said, turn around here, and I'll 334 00:22:23,316 --> 00:22:25,596 Speaker 9: never forget. I've turned to my lap if the lamb 335 00:22:26,476 --> 00:22:29,356 Speaker 9: walked this, and she was standing there, and I'm gonna 336 00:22:29,356 --> 00:22:33,316 Speaker 9: tell you before we go any puddle, I'm gonna shit. 337 00:22:33,396 --> 00:22:40,156 Speaker 2: I've gone to Barls p whaty bells pub about an inch. 338 00:22:42,636 --> 00:22:43,116 Speaker 10: Bute book. 339 00:22:46,596 --> 00:22:48,356 Speaker 6: Well, sure sleep would come. 340 00:22:51,556 --> 00:22:53,116 Speaker 2: All in the chest. 341 00:22:54,796 --> 00:23:01,036 Speaker 6: Pap he thought her butts and legs to a certain 342 00:23:01,076 --> 00:23:02,476 Speaker 6: area where a skirt would. 343 00:23:02,196 --> 00:23:05,396 Speaker 5: Come the black. 344 00:23:06,676 --> 00:23:10,356 Speaker 1: Black the Senate was covered and bruises. 345 00:23:11,996 --> 00:23:13,756 Speaker 2: I got up and have this whole boy. I didn't 346 00:23:13,756 --> 00:23:17,516 Speaker 2: ask no questions. I didn't ask anything. I had to 347 00:23:17,556 --> 00:23:20,036 Speaker 2: butt a little thing back up and now one like that. 348 00:23:20,236 --> 00:23:26,236 Speaker 2: She said, down, you won't talk about this, and she 349 00:23:26,356 --> 00:23:31,476 Speaker 2: began to kill me. This story about her relationship. 350 00:23:32,956 --> 00:23:40,036 Speaker 6: With mister sid. She began to kill me, but she 351 00:23:40,756 --> 00:23:44,196 Speaker 6: was didn't know how, but that he was going. 352 00:23:44,036 --> 00:23:47,756 Speaker 2: To kill her, and that she knew this, and she 353 00:23:47,916 --> 00:23:58,636 Speaker 2: had saved them her money for the bulls, and when 354 00:23:58,716 --> 00:24:00,796 Speaker 2: we were able to attorney, she was going to do this. 355 00:24:00,836 --> 00:24:05,476 Speaker 2: One charge her four hundred dollars. She said, I worried 356 00:24:05,476 --> 00:24:08,756 Speaker 2: about this and worried about this. Once I'll do there, 357 00:24:17,796 --> 00:24:25,756 Speaker 2: she said, I know, I don't think they've all ever 358 00:24:25,836 --> 00:24:27,716 Speaker 2: be three with me with before who kills me. 359 00:24:32,236 --> 00:24:34,876 Speaker 1: She didn't know how, but he was going to kill her, 360 00:24:35,596 --> 00:24:39,156 Speaker 1: and she didn't think she could break free. Mosey said 361 00:24:39,196 --> 00:24:41,476 Speaker 1: she tried to help Elizabeth to find a way to 362 00:24:41,556 --> 00:24:45,356 Speaker 1: leave Charles, leave the marriage. She told Elizabeth, you can 363 00:24:45,356 --> 00:24:47,676 Speaker 1: come and live with me if you want. She tried 364 00:24:47,716 --> 00:24:50,996 Speaker 1: to help her find the words to communicate to her husband. 365 00:24:51,516 --> 00:24:52,236 Speaker 1: It had to end. 366 00:24:54,116 --> 00:24:57,196 Speaker 11: We would say turn Alan literally right off the wood 367 00:24:57,236 --> 00:25:02,476 Speaker 11: thing and say okay, now say say this Charles, we 368 00:25:02,556 --> 00:25:06,716 Speaker 11: need to talk. I cannot continue to be alone with 369 00:25:06,756 --> 00:25:10,676 Speaker 11: all these Ltons. And they go to children lady and 370 00:25:10,756 --> 00:25:15,556 Speaker 11: taught a pego fathers where long's lay shirt a degree there. 371 00:25:16,276 --> 00:25:19,076 Speaker 11: Somebody is going to dig this out. 372 00:25:19,876 --> 00:25:25,076 Speaker 1: Is Mosley gave a deposition to investigators, and her testimony 373 00:25:25,156 --> 00:25:28,396 Speaker 1: was recounted to the jury by Ronnie May from the 374 00:25:28,436 --> 00:25:32,316 Speaker 1: Colbert County Sheriff's office in the flat, effectless tone of 375 00:25:32,396 --> 00:25:35,756 Speaker 1: official speak. But even then, it's impossible to miss the 376 00:25:35,796 --> 00:25:40,356 Speaker 1: power of what she saw. Listen, this is what May said. 377 00:25:42,196 --> 00:25:44,676 Speaker 1: Missus Moseley said that she had been told by Missus 378 00:25:44,676 --> 00:25:48,436 Speaker 1: Senatet that around Christmas of that year, Charles's family came 379 00:25:48,476 --> 00:25:51,596 Speaker 1: to visit and they had come up from Florida. Missus 380 00:25:51,596 --> 00:25:54,596 Speaker 1: Sennett stated that some of the family went hunting. She 381 00:25:54,716 --> 00:25:58,556 Speaker 1: stated that Charles became extremely upset over some conversation between 382 00:25:58,796 --> 00:26:02,076 Speaker 1: he and members of the family, and Missus Sennett stated 383 00:26:02,076 --> 00:26:05,316 Speaker 1: that during that outburst of Christmas with his family members, 384 00:26:05,916 --> 00:26:08,916 Speaker 1: he laid down on the floor and screamed and cried 385 00:26:09,356 --> 00:26:13,596 Speaker 1: and seemed to be paralyzed at different times. Missus Sennett 386 00:26:13,676 --> 00:26:16,116 Speaker 1: stated that this went on for some time at the house, 387 00:26:16,596 --> 00:26:20,276 Speaker 1: and as a result, Charles's family left and returned to Florida. 388 00:26:20,836 --> 00:26:24,156 Speaker 1: Missus Moseley stated that Missus Senate told her during this 389 00:26:24,276 --> 00:26:27,476 Speaker 1: argument that Charles at one point had pulled and waved 390 00:26:27,476 --> 00:26:34,316 Speaker 1: a gun in the direction of his father. On one 391 00:26:34,356 --> 00:26:36,476 Speaker 1: of my visits to the Shoals, I sat in Tom 392 00:26:36,476 --> 00:26:39,156 Speaker 1: Hefflin's living room and tried to make sense of all 393 00:26:39,156 --> 00:26:42,116 Speaker 1: the things that Jerry learned about Charles Sennet, who had 394 00:26:42,116 --> 00:26:44,796 Speaker 1: taken his own life so quickly after his wife's murder. 395 00:26:45,676 --> 00:26:51,236 Speaker 1: I mean, of all of these three potential murderers, Parker 396 00:26:51,956 --> 00:26:55,236 Speaker 1: Smith and Senate Senate is the only one with a 397 00:26:55,276 --> 00:27:02,036 Speaker 1: documented history of violent, highly aggressive behavior. He's the one 398 00:27:02,076 --> 00:27:04,516 Speaker 1: who beat his wife. To me, this is all about 399 00:27:04,596 --> 00:27:06,556 Speaker 1: Charles Sennett, the whole thing. He sets the whole thing 400 00:27:06,596 --> 00:27:13,356 Speaker 1: in motion. He's the charismatic, persuasive adult. He's a predator. 401 00:27:13,516 --> 00:27:15,276 Speaker 1: He really should be the one on trial. 402 00:27:16,956 --> 00:27:20,836 Speaker 3: And without having gone back, maybe we didn't try him 403 00:27:20,836 --> 00:27:21,396 Speaker 3: hard enough. 404 00:27:25,716 --> 00:27:28,316 Speaker 1: This, I think is what was on the police chief's 405 00:27:28,316 --> 00:27:30,876 Speaker 1: mind when he gossiped about the case with patterson Hood, 406 00:27:31,356 --> 00:27:34,116 Speaker 1: lead singer at the drive by truckers at that drug 407 00:27:34,116 --> 00:27:34,956 Speaker 1: store in Florence. 408 00:27:36,276 --> 00:27:40,556 Speaker 5: I can't remember how thing they figured out that he that, 409 00:27:40,796 --> 00:27:44,156 Speaker 5: you know, the preacher had finished the job and all that, 410 00:27:44,276 --> 00:27:47,716 Speaker 5: but it was, you know, it was pretty obvious, pretty quick. 411 00:27:48,396 --> 00:27:52,116 Speaker 5: You know that those guys, they were fuck ups. They 412 00:27:52,156 --> 00:27:54,996 Speaker 5: took what was going to be a simple go in, 413 00:27:55,876 --> 00:27:57,956 Speaker 5: you know, kill her, make it look like a robbery, 414 00:27:58,396 --> 00:28:02,436 Speaker 5: and turned it into this gruesome thing. And she was 415 00:28:02,476 --> 00:28:07,196 Speaker 5: still alive, and so the preacher did what you know, 416 00:28:07,676 --> 00:28:11,796 Speaker 5: be then did? I mean's god, It's just it's just 417 00:28:11,836 --> 00:28:16,276 Speaker 5: such an awful story on every imaginable level, which. 418 00:28:16,076 --> 00:28:20,076 Speaker 1: Is why patterson Hood wrote the crucial verse, very. 419 00:28:21,676 --> 00:28:31,556 Speaker 7: Home word found misus die My was fall from her 420 00:28:31,956 --> 00:28:41,156 Speaker 7: grasp still she tried. No one ever knows what she 421 00:28:41,396 --> 00:28:50,076 Speaker 7: told him. Nobody told her it's the river and is 422 00:28:50,556 --> 00:28:55,836 Speaker 7: my friend fifteen blacks Fireplace Poker. 423 00:28:57,476 --> 00:29:00,076 Speaker 1: To read the John Parker trial transcript with the full 424 00:29:00,076 --> 00:29:03,156 Speaker 1: knowledge of what would happen over the following decades is 425 00:29:03,196 --> 00:29:08,676 Speaker 1: to get angry, especially after what happened next the sentencing. 426 00:29:25,836 --> 00:29:27,636 Speaker 2: What was it like when you were sequestered? 427 00:29:28,236 --> 00:29:31,636 Speaker 4: We spent eight days over here in the Ramada end. 428 00:29:32,476 --> 00:29:35,476 Speaker 1: Gary Highfield, foreman of the jury in the Parker trial, 429 00:29:35,836 --> 00:29:37,756 Speaker 1: talking to my colleague Ben the daph Haffrey. 430 00:29:38,356 --> 00:29:38,956 Speaker 9: It was good. 431 00:29:39,116 --> 00:29:41,436 Speaker 4: I mean, you know, they fed us, and I mean 432 00:29:41,476 --> 00:29:43,956 Speaker 4: we got to go home and get clothes and all 433 00:29:43,956 --> 00:29:47,876 Speaker 4: that kind of stuff and then you know, go down there. 434 00:29:47,916 --> 00:29:51,436 Speaker 4: But uh, they told us prepare for clothes for a week, 435 00:29:51,476 --> 00:29:54,116 Speaker 4: and we got them and you know, went to the hotel. 436 00:29:54,276 --> 00:29:55,636 Speaker 6: I mean it was all good. 437 00:29:55,916 --> 00:29:57,436 Speaker 3: Did you guys hang out when you were. 438 00:29:59,396 --> 00:30:02,156 Speaker 4: We really they told us not to, you know, we 439 00:30:02,316 --> 00:30:04,876 Speaker 4: just kind of We did get to go to the pool. 440 00:30:04,956 --> 00:30:06,396 Speaker 3: We did go to the pool one day. 441 00:30:07,636 --> 00:30:11,596 Speaker 1: Highfield was thirty years old, time married one kid and 442 00:30:11,636 --> 00:30:15,756 Speaker 1: another on the way sold insurance. He says looking back 443 00:30:16,156 --> 00:30:18,236 Speaker 1: that the news coverage of the killing made the job 444 00:30:18,236 --> 00:30:19,636 Speaker 1: of the defense very difficult. 445 00:30:20,476 --> 00:30:25,716 Speaker 4: I think it kind of handcuffed then because people had 446 00:30:27,076 --> 00:30:32,276 Speaker 4: an idea of what had happened. There was so much 447 00:30:32,396 --> 00:30:38,836 Speaker 4: put out there beforehand. And it's when you get something, 448 00:30:38,876 --> 00:30:42,876 Speaker 4: When a person gets something in their mind, you know, 449 00:30:43,796 --> 00:30:45,236 Speaker 4: it's kind of hard to change. 450 00:30:47,396 --> 00:30:49,716 Speaker 1: So when they heard all of the discrepancies about the 451 00:30:49,756 --> 00:30:53,316 Speaker 1: timing and the weapon and the character of Charles Sennett. 452 00:30:53,796 --> 00:30:55,716 Speaker 1: It was hard for them to square that with their 453 00:30:55,836 --> 00:30:58,636 Speaker 1: understanding of John Parker. He had agreed to go out 454 00:30:58,636 --> 00:31:02,036 Speaker 1: to Kundak Cemetery Road, he had admitted he brutally assaulted 455 00:31:02,076 --> 00:31:06,556 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Sennate. A dispassionate reading of the child transcripts today 456 00:31:06,996 --> 00:31:09,996 Speaker 1: years later supports the idea that Parker should have been 457 00:31:09,996 --> 00:31:13,636 Speaker 1: acquitted of the murder charge, just gotten something like conspiracy 458 00:31:13,636 --> 00:31:16,676 Speaker 1: to commit murder or assault in the first degree. But 459 00:31:16,836 --> 00:31:19,756 Speaker 1: this was a year after the crime, and it was 460 00:31:19,956 --> 00:31:21,276 Speaker 1: very hard to be dispassionate. 461 00:31:22,916 --> 00:31:33,996 Speaker 4: But I mean, look, in that kind of situation, if 462 00:31:33,996 --> 00:31:37,316 Speaker 4: you had he he meant to kill her with that pipe. 463 00:31:40,356 --> 00:31:42,756 Speaker 4: I mean, if you mean to do something, you may 464 00:31:42,796 --> 00:31:47,636 Speaker 4: not actually be the one that committed the death, the 465 00:31:47,716 --> 00:31:51,676 Speaker 4: actual death, but torturing somebody that bad was. 466 00:31:52,516 --> 00:31:56,276 Speaker 3: Man, it was awful. 467 00:31:56,396 --> 00:31:56,676 Speaker 5: Dude. 468 00:31:57,196 --> 00:31:59,116 Speaker 4: If you if you're not, even if you're not the 469 00:31:59,156 --> 00:32:02,996 Speaker 4: one that taught that was the one that fatally killed her, 470 00:32:04,796 --> 00:32:07,356 Speaker 4: you did you. I mean, it was proven that you 471 00:32:07,396 --> 00:32:08,956 Speaker 4: did every bit of that stuff. 472 00:32:09,196 --> 00:32:09,796 Speaker 6: This lady. 473 00:32:10,316 --> 00:32:15,396 Speaker 4: I mean, she might as well have been dead. But anyway, 474 00:32:15,596 --> 00:32:20,476 Speaker 4: I don't know, it's just I mean, I I don't 475 00:32:20,476 --> 00:32:23,476 Speaker 4: even like to think about it too much. I don't 476 00:32:23,516 --> 00:32:26,716 Speaker 4: know which one of them killed her. I really don't, 477 00:32:26,956 --> 00:32:34,396 Speaker 4: but I think both of them got what they probably deserved. 478 00:32:35,156 --> 00:32:39,516 Speaker 4: Lee legally and Moraley. 479 00:32:40,436 --> 00:32:46,236 Speaker 1: They found Parker guilty of murder, so Parker's attorney, Tom 480 00:32:46,276 --> 00:32:50,556 Speaker 1: Heiffeland lost that round, but the prosecution was asking for 481 00:32:50,596 --> 00:32:54,436 Speaker 1: the death penalty, and here the jury hesitated. The picture 482 00:32:54,476 --> 00:32:56,836 Speaker 1: that Hefflin had painted up his client as a mixed 483 00:32:56,916 --> 00:33:00,156 Speaker 1: up kid in over his head had left an impression. 484 00:33:00,676 --> 00:33:04,276 Speaker 1: So the jury voted overwhelmingly ten to two for life 485 00:33:04,316 --> 00:33:09,276 Speaker 1: without parole. The jury didn't think Parker deserved to die. 486 00:33:09,436 --> 00:33:11,436 Speaker 4: I just don't think some of these people that were 487 00:33:11,516 --> 00:33:14,196 Speaker 4: on the jury, they didn't want that to be on 488 00:33:14,276 --> 00:33:19,156 Speaker 4: their conscious the rest of their life. Putting somebody into 489 00:33:19,196 --> 00:33:20,836 Speaker 4: the death penalty. 490 00:33:21,396 --> 00:33:25,796 Speaker 1: At this point, the cascade could have stopped right. A 491 00:33:25,876 --> 00:33:29,956 Speaker 1: cascade is unique as a category of catastrophe because it 492 00:33:30,036 --> 00:33:35,236 Speaker 1: requires multiple stages in sequence. Remember our proverb from episode one, 493 00:33:35,396 --> 00:33:37,836 Speaker 1: you need to nail the shoe, the horse, the rider, 494 00:33:38,116 --> 00:33:41,556 Speaker 1: the message, and the battle for the kingdom to be imperiled. 495 00:33:41,916 --> 00:33:44,356 Speaker 1: And if any of those stages fall out along the way, 496 00:33:44,636 --> 00:33:47,876 Speaker 1: if the rider loses his horse but quickly finds another 497 00:33:48,516 --> 00:33:52,636 Speaker 1: The kingdom is fine. A life sentence for Parker brings 498 00:33:52,676 --> 00:33:55,116 Speaker 1: the whole saga to a close, because it means that 499 00:33:55,196 --> 00:33:57,756 Speaker 1: Kenny Smith would almost certainly get a life sentence as 500 00:33:57,796 --> 00:34:01,076 Speaker 1: well when his time came, and for all intents and purposes, 501 00:34:01,516 --> 00:34:05,236 Speaker 1: the case would be closed. Justice would be served. The 502 00:34:05,356 --> 00:34:09,396 Speaker 1: rider found another horse. The kingdom is just fine. Except 503 00:34:10,196 --> 00:34:21,116 Speaker 1: that's not what happens why, Because this is Alabama. To 504 00:34:21,236 --> 00:34:25,716 Speaker 1: understand what happens next requires a brief digression into an 505 00:34:25,756 --> 00:34:31,556 Speaker 1: obscure legal doctrine known as judicial override. Judicial override arose 506 00:34:31,636 --> 00:34:34,836 Speaker 1: in the mid nineteen seventies in response to the Supreme 507 00:34:34,876 --> 00:34:38,356 Speaker 1: Court's insistence that states be more rigorous in the way 508 00:34:38,356 --> 00:34:42,996 Speaker 1: they use the death penalty. The court wanteds standards rules, 509 00:34:43,796 --> 00:34:47,716 Speaker 1: so the court divided capital cases into two stages. First, 510 00:34:47,916 --> 00:34:51,676 Speaker 1: a jury was required to rule on the defendant's guilt. Then, 511 00:34:51,836 --> 00:34:54,076 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court said it wanted juris to do something 512 00:34:54,116 --> 00:34:58,156 Speaker 1: they don't do in normal criminal cases, decide on the 513 00:34:58,156 --> 00:35:02,636 Speaker 1: appropriate sentence. Alabama's response was to pass the law giving 514 00:35:02,636 --> 00:35:05,716 Speaker 1: the final word to the judge, and if the judge 515 00:35:05,716 --> 00:35:08,876 Speaker 1: wanted to override the jury's decision to turn say life 516 00:35:08,916 --> 00:35:13,156 Speaker 1: for the parole into the death penalty, they could. A 517 00:35:13,196 --> 00:35:16,916 Speaker 1: handful of states did something similar, like Florida, but in 518 00:35:16,956 --> 00:35:19,276 Speaker 1: Florida the law said that the judge had to give 519 00:35:19,396 --> 00:35:24,596 Speaker 1: quote great weight to the jury's decision. In Alabama, a 520 00:35:24,676 --> 00:35:27,156 Speaker 1: judge could do whatever they wanted, and over the next 521 00:35:27,236 --> 00:35:32,236 Speaker 1: forty years, judges did just that. The override was used 522 00:35:32,236 --> 00:35:35,396 Speaker 1: over one hundred times in Alabama, almost always to allow 523 00:35:35,436 --> 00:35:38,796 Speaker 1: a judge to execute someone whose life the jury wanted 524 00:35:38,836 --> 00:35:41,636 Speaker 1: to save, with judges saying all kinds of crazy things 525 00:35:41,636 --> 00:35:44,556 Speaker 1: along the way, like the time an Alabama jury went 526 00:35:44,596 --> 00:35:47,756 Speaker 1: easy on a murderer because he was mentally disabled, and 527 00:35:47,796 --> 00:35:52,036 Speaker 1: the judge overrode them because and unquoting the sociological literature 528 00:35:52,116 --> 00:35:58,476 Speaker 1: suggests gypsies intentionally test low on standard IQ tests. So 529 00:35:59,076 --> 00:36:02,076 Speaker 1: in the Parker trial, the jury rules in the first 530 00:36:02,116 --> 00:36:05,556 Speaker 1: stage that he's guilty, and in the sentencing stage they 531 00:36:05,556 --> 00:36:09,836 Speaker 1: say no death penalty, life without parole. And what happens next. 532 00:36:10,316 --> 00:36:13,276 Speaker 1: The judge Nka Johnson, the one with a portrait on 533 00:36:13,316 --> 00:36:17,436 Speaker 1: the wall in the courtroom, overrides the jury recommendation and 534 00:36:17,596 --> 00:36:25,476 Speaker 1: sentences Parker to death. Heflin was not exactly surprised when 535 00:36:25,516 --> 00:36:30,636 Speaker 1: you heard her override decision. Your reaction was you saw 536 00:36:30,676 --> 00:36:31,876 Speaker 1: it coming coming? 537 00:36:32,276 --> 00:36:33,996 Speaker 8: Yeah? 538 00:36:34,436 --> 00:36:37,676 Speaker 3: Do you did she think she? I think she. I 539 00:36:37,676 --> 00:36:41,876 Speaker 3: think she now she's generally a good judge. I think 540 00:36:41,916 --> 00:36:44,676 Speaker 3: she listened. I think she a you know, I'm not 541 00:36:44,796 --> 00:36:49,156 Speaker 3: saying she had totally prejudged it, but I think she. 542 00:36:51,556 --> 00:36:53,836 Speaker 3: Damn it. 543 00:36:53,996 --> 00:36:58,836 Speaker 1: She doesn't give in her sentencing decision. She doesn't really 544 00:36:59,396 --> 00:37:04,636 Speaker 1: give specific reasons as to why she's overriding the Jerry's recommendation. 545 00:37:04,756 --> 00:37:06,756 Speaker 3: In Alabama, you're not required to. 546 00:37:09,956 --> 00:37:13,036 Speaker 1: The whole thing makes no sense, of course, if the 547 00:37:13,036 --> 00:37:15,876 Speaker 1: Supreme Court wanted the states to make the application of 548 00:37:15,916 --> 00:37:20,116 Speaker 1: the death penalty less arbitrary, how does just handing over 549 00:37:20,236 --> 00:37:23,756 Speaker 1: power to judges to do whatever they want for whatever 550 00:37:23,836 --> 00:37:28,116 Speaker 1: random reason fix the problem. Gary Highfield, the jury foreman, 551 00:37:28,316 --> 00:37:29,636 Speaker 1: is still angry about it. 552 00:37:30,516 --> 00:37:34,836 Speaker 4: What reason did I have to spend a week over 553 00:37:34,916 --> 00:37:40,236 Speaker 4: a week in a jury listening to this when she 554 00:37:40,396 --> 00:37:45,436 Speaker 4: has the right to overturn my decision or decision? I mean, 555 00:37:45,436 --> 00:37:47,556 Speaker 4: I felt like there was no reason for May to 556 00:37:47,596 --> 00:37:52,196 Speaker 4: even be there. That's the problem I have with That's 557 00:37:52,236 --> 00:37:55,676 Speaker 4: the only problem I have with the whole thing, don't 558 00:37:55,956 --> 00:38:00,196 Speaker 4: I mean? I just felt I felt useless spending all 559 00:38:00,316 --> 00:38:05,636 Speaker 4: that time on a jury, and then she has the 560 00:38:05,796 --> 00:38:09,476 Speaker 4: right to come back. I mean, there's no sense even 561 00:38:09,516 --> 00:38:13,956 Speaker 4: having a jury if you're going to be able to 562 00:38:14,076 --> 00:38:17,556 Speaker 4: overturn the jury, if a judge can overternal jury. 563 00:38:18,796 --> 00:38:23,116 Speaker 1: Parker gets sent to death row at Donaldson Prison in Bessemer, Alabama, 564 00:38:23,236 --> 00:38:26,716 Speaker 1: just outside of Birmingham. This is nineteen eighty nine. His 565 00:38:26,796 --> 00:38:31,196 Speaker 1: lawyers keep him alive, filing appeal. After appeal, thirteen years pass, 566 00:38:31,676 --> 00:38:35,196 Speaker 1: he's still alive and he gets one final chance by 567 00:38:35,196 --> 00:38:38,316 Speaker 1: way of a new Supreme Court case. In ring the 568 00:38:38,436 --> 00:38:42,396 Speaker 1: Arizona the court throws out Arizona's practice of allowing judges 569 00:38:42,396 --> 00:38:45,916 Speaker 1: to make sentencing decisions independently of the jury in death 570 00:38:45,956 --> 00:38:50,716 Speaker 1: penalty cases. They said it violates the sixth Amendment, which reads, 571 00:38:50,756 --> 00:38:54,716 Speaker 1: in case you've forgotten, in all criminal prosecutions, the accused 572 00:38:54,716 --> 00:38:57,316 Speaker 1: shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial 573 00:38:57,716 --> 00:39:01,036 Speaker 1: by an impartial jury. If your life is at stake, 574 00:39:01,436 --> 00:39:03,556 Speaker 1: then what happens to you shouldn't be left up to 575 00:39:03,596 --> 00:39:06,676 Speaker 1: the whims of whatever judge you were assigned. Only a 576 00:39:06,756 --> 00:39:08,836 Speaker 1: jury should be allowed to make the call of life 577 00:39:08,956 --> 00:39:12,756 Speaker 1: or death, and that protection is right there in the constitution. 578 00:39:13,996 --> 00:39:17,716 Speaker 1: In response, Indiana, which had an override statute on its books, 579 00:39:18,036 --> 00:39:22,076 Speaker 1: shuts it down. Everyone on death row in Indiana who 580 00:39:22,156 --> 00:39:25,236 Speaker 1: was there because of a judge's override gets their original 581 00:39:25,316 --> 00:39:30,516 Speaker 1: life sentence back. All eyes turned to Alabama. Surely they 582 00:39:30,556 --> 00:39:33,636 Speaker 1: have to follow suit, right, John Parker's going to live. 583 00:39:34,196 --> 00:39:37,196 Speaker 3: When I heard that it was done as John's come, 584 00:39:37,196 --> 00:39:39,036 Speaker 3: my faithing was John was off death row. 585 00:39:40,676 --> 00:39:43,716 Speaker 1: This was two thousand and two. For the next eight years, 586 00:39:43,916 --> 00:39:46,636 Speaker 1: Parker got up every morning waiting for the state of 587 00:39:46,676 --> 00:39:49,516 Speaker 1: Alabama to acknowledge the fact that the law that put 588 00:39:49,556 --> 00:39:54,756 Speaker 1: him on death row was unconstitutional. He waits and waits. 589 00:39:55,316 --> 00:39:57,916 Speaker 1: Do you know when Alabama finally got around to abolishing 590 00:39:57,996 --> 00:40:02,076 Speaker 1: judicial override twenty seventeen, when it was too late to 591 00:40:02,116 --> 00:40:05,756 Speaker 1: make any difference for Parker. In fact, it took Alabama 592 00:40:06,116 --> 00:40:09,476 Speaker 1: forty one years to come to their senses, and then 593 00:40:09,916 --> 00:40:14,716 Speaker 1: they couldn't help themselves. They say this reversal only applies 594 00:40:14,796 --> 00:40:19,556 Speaker 1: to future cases. Anyone who's already on death row because 595 00:40:19,556 --> 00:40:22,676 Speaker 1: of a judge's override in the previous forty two years 596 00:40:22,716 --> 00:40:27,236 Speaker 1: stays on death row. In the years before the Civil War, 597 00:40:27,716 --> 00:40:30,436 Speaker 1: there was a phrase Southern slave owners would use to 598 00:40:30,476 --> 00:40:33,636 Speaker 1: describe their practice of owning their workforce. They called it 599 00:40:34,036 --> 00:40:39,116 Speaker 1: their peculiar institution. Euphemism a nice way of saying that 600 00:40:39,156 --> 00:40:41,556 Speaker 1: things were done a little differently in their part of 601 00:40:41,596 --> 00:40:46,356 Speaker 1: the world. Judicial override is, I think, a very good 602 00:40:46,356 --> 00:40:52,116 Speaker 1: example of another Alabama peculiarity. And if you are at 603 00:40:52,116 --> 00:40:56,556 Speaker 1: all curious about how this particular peculiarity works, I would 604 00:40:56,556 --> 00:40:59,996 Speaker 1: direct you to the discussion that took place on April seventeenth, 605 00:41:00,116 --> 00:41:03,516 Speaker 1: twenty twenty four, in a hearing room at the Alabama 606 00:41:03,556 --> 00:41:05,876 Speaker 1: State Capitol in Montgomery. 607 00:41:06,836 --> 00:41:07,236 Speaker 10: Helus. 608 00:41:07,316 --> 00:41:12,516 Speaker 8: Gentlemen, I want to welcome you to the House Judiciary Committee. 609 00:41:13,076 --> 00:41:14,836 Speaker 8: We're glad to have each and every one of you 610 00:41:15,196 --> 00:41:16,516 Speaker 8: here with us today. 611 00:41:17,036 --> 00:41:17,956 Speaker 10: Thank Misterior member. 612 00:41:18,396 --> 00:41:21,316 Speaker 8: Mister England, you want to talk about twenty seven. 613 00:41:22,436 --> 00:41:28,196 Speaker 1: Absolutely, Representative England is Chris England, that rarest of species 614 00:41:28,236 --> 00:41:32,716 Speaker 1: in Alabama. A Democrat represents Tuscaloosa. He was the co 615 00:41:32,796 --> 00:41:36,356 Speaker 1: sponsor of the legislation back in twenty seventeen that ended 616 00:41:36,436 --> 00:41:39,756 Speaker 1: judicial override. Now he wants to make an amendment to 617 00:41:39,796 --> 00:41:42,276 Speaker 1: that law, House Bill twenty seven. 618 00:41:42,716 --> 00:41:45,596 Speaker 10: What this bill does or seeks to do, is to 619 00:41:47,036 --> 00:41:50,756 Speaker 10: make that application retroactive, so that I believe thirty three 620 00:41:50,756 --> 00:41:53,196 Speaker 10: individuals that are currently sitting on death row as a 621 00:41:53,236 --> 00:41:57,116 Speaker 10: result of override could be resentenced. 622 00:41:57,876 --> 00:42:01,676 Speaker 1: Representative England says, we've all finally agreed that judicial override 623 00:42:01,796 --> 00:42:05,236 Speaker 1: violates the constitutional right to a jury trial in death 624 00:42:05,276 --> 00:42:09,476 Speaker 1: Bendley cases. So we should go back and restore the's 625 00:42:09,516 --> 00:42:11,916 Speaker 1: decision in the case of all those people who are 626 00:42:11,996 --> 00:42:14,396 Speaker 1: only on death row, because it took us forty years 627 00:42:14,436 --> 00:42:16,796 Speaker 1: to realize that back in nineteen seventy five, we made 628 00:42:16,836 --> 00:42:17,516 Speaker 1: a big mistake. 629 00:42:18,116 --> 00:42:20,476 Speaker 8: Mister England. I hear what you're saying, and I understand 630 00:42:20,516 --> 00:42:23,316 Speaker 8: that an individual tride today would be would be subject 631 00:42:23,316 --> 00:42:25,116 Speaker 8: to a different set of laws, and I've got you. 632 00:42:25,156 --> 00:42:27,716 Speaker 8: But the individuals that were shod part of the time 633 00:42:27,796 --> 00:42:33,276 Speaker 8: we changed the law were subject to those laws that 634 00:42:33,356 --> 00:42:35,436 Speaker 8: were in effect at that time, and the law that 635 00:42:35,516 --> 00:42:38,836 Speaker 8: was in effect at that time allowed judicial override, and 636 00:42:38,916 --> 00:42:41,956 Speaker 8: these judges and their discretion overrode. 637 00:42:42,596 --> 00:42:45,716 Speaker 1: Then comes this priceless bit of nonsense. 638 00:42:46,276 --> 00:42:52,396 Speaker 8: God squarely, it's very difficult for me to second yes 639 00:42:53,036 --> 00:42:56,796 Speaker 8: or an effect override that which the judge overwrote. 640 00:42:58,276 --> 00:43:01,196 Speaker 1: At this there are lots of nods up and down 641 00:43:01,236 --> 00:43:06,196 Speaker 1: the committee This is the Alabama peculiarity. I have Southern 642 00:43:06,236 --> 00:43:09,436 Speaker 1: friends who get mad correctly at the way Northerners always 643 00:43:09,476 --> 00:43:12,036 Speaker 1: bring up slavery or get all worked up because people 644 00:43:12,116 --> 00:43:16,196 Speaker 1: drive around with Confederate flags. But come on, this isn't 645 00:43:16,196 --> 00:43:20,156 Speaker 1: a random thing. This is a characteristic. There is something 646 00:43:20,196 --> 00:43:23,756 Speaker 1: in the psyche of places like Alabama that really, really, 647 00:43:23,876 --> 00:43:28,356 Speaker 1: really doesn't want to address the consequences of past moral failures. 648 00:43:28,876 --> 00:43:32,076 Speaker 8: Hi, is there is there a motion to give this 649 00:43:32,076 --> 00:43:33,236 Speaker 8: bill a favorable report? 650 00:43:34,196 --> 00:43:34,716 Speaker 3: Thank you? 651 00:43:34,876 --> 00:43:35,556 Speaker 10: In a second. 652 00:43:35,636 --> 00:43:38,516 Speaker 8: Okay, we've had plenty of discussion. You asked for a rogue. 653 00:43:38,516 --> 00:43:39,476 Speaker 8: I'll go ahead, Brandy. 654 00:43:40,436 --> 00:43:43,156 Speaker 1: Maybe you see where this is going. They vote it down, 655 00:43:44,036 --> 00:43:49,876 Speaker 1: there will be no overriding of the override. It seems 656 00:43:50,156 --> 00:43:52,996 Speaker 1: really clear to me that John Forest Parker didn't kill 657 00:43:52,996 --> 00:43:55,756 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Sennett. He was back home in Florence when she 658 00:43:55,796 --> 00:43:58,956 Speaker 1: received the stab wounds that killed her. He should never 659 00:43:58,996 --> 00:44:02,996 Speaker 1: been convicted of murder, but he was. And if he 660 00:44:03,196 --> 00:44:05,556 Speaker 1: was going to be convicted, he should have served out 661 00:44:05,556 --> 00:44:07,596 Speaker 1: the sentence given to him by a jury of his 662 00:44:07,716 --> 00:44:12,636 Speaker 1: peers without parole. But he didn't. And once he was 663 00:44:12,676 --> 00:44:15,796 Speaker 1: on death row, Alabama should have ended the practice that 664 00:44:15,916 --> 00:44:18,876 Speaker 1: robbed him of a just result, but they didn't get 665 00:44:18,916 --> 00:44:21,476 Speaker 1: around to it for over forty years, and even then 666 00:44:21,956 --> 00:44:27,196 Speaker 1: they couldn't bring themselves to override the override. John Forrest 667 00:44:27,196 --> 00:44:50,316 Speaker 1: Parker never stood a chance next time on the Alabama murders. 668 00:44:51,316 --> 00:44:55,156 Speaker 12: This is how lethal injection actually kills you. It kills 669 00:44:55,156 --> 00:44:57,996 Speaker 12: you by burning your lungs up. So the last thing 670 00:44:58,076 --> 00:45:01,196 Speaker 12: that you know, you may know, is that you're on 671 00:45:01,316 --> 00:45:04,956 Speaker 12: fire from the inside and the blood is filling up 672 00:45:04,996 --> 00:45:08,356 Speaker 12: your lungs as you die. Is this too graphic? 673 00:45:09,276 --> 00:45:12,956 Speaker 13: He Look, if you come back here and start coming 674 00:45:13,396 --> 00:45:15,556 Speaker 13: and these guys ask you to go all the way 675 00:45:15,596 --> 00:45:17,876 Speaker 13: with them, you gotta be willing to go. And I said, 676 00:45:17,876 --> 00:45:19,836 Speaker 13: what's all the way? And he said, you know, if 677 00:45:19,836 --> 00:45:22,356 Speaker 13: they're executions and if they ask you to be with them, 678 00:45:22,796 --> 00:45:24,796 Speaker 13: you need you can't. You need to be willing to go, 679 00:45:24,876 --> 00:45:26,316 Speaker 13: and if you're not, just don't come. 680 00:45:33,356 --> 00:45:37,756 Speaker 1: Revision's History is produced by ben Da dapfh Haffrey, Lucy Sullivan, 681 00:45:38,316 --> 00:45:42,556 Speaker 1: and Nina Bird Lawrence. Additional reporting by ben Da Dafh Haffrey, 682 00:45:42,836 --> 00:45:47,116 Speaker 1: and Lee Hedgsbeth. Our editor is Karen Schakerji. Fact checking 683 00:45:47,116 --> 00:45:51,316 Speaker 1: by Kate Ferby. Our Executive producer is Jacob Smith. Engineering 684 00:45:51,316 --> 00:45:55,316 Speaker 1: by Nina Bird Lawrence, Production support from Luke LeMond. Original 685 00:45:55,396 --> 00:45:58,676 Speaker 1: scoring by Luis Garra with Paul Brainard and Jimmy Bodd. 686 00:45:59,316 --> 00:46:03,836 Speaker 1: Sound design and additional music by Jake Gorsky. H'm Malcolm 687 00:46:03,876 --> 00:46:19,716 Speaker 1: Glabam