Speaker 1: Hi, Brian, Hi Katie. Well, I'm very excited about our
Speaker 1: podcast today. It's a conversation with Ava di Verney, who
Speaker 1: has become so accomplished. She's everywhere these days. I first
Speaker 1: met her at the Sundance Film Festival a couple of
Speaker 1: years ago, and she really wasn't a household name back then,
Speaker 1: but I think today she's become one. Of course, she's
Speaker 1: done such critically acclaimed documentaries, like she has a show
Speaker 1: called Queen Sugar, which has also gotten a lot of attention.
Speaker 1: And of course Selma, right, Brian, I mean, that was
Speaker 1: an amazing film. If you care about the civil rights movement,
Speaker 1: or Lyndon Johnson or how the Voting Rights Act was passed,
Speaker 1: you have to see this movie. It became actually very
Speaker 1: controversial at the time, and one of the big controversies
Speaker 1: around it was why Ava was not nominated for Best Director,
Speaker 1: which we get into a little bit in this conversation,
Speaker 1: and of course that omission really helped fuel the Oscars
Speaker 1: So White campaign, which really changed the face literally of
Speaker 1: the Academy. Anyway, we had the privilege of talking to
Speaker 1: Ava at Disney Studios, where she was in the middle
Speaker 1: of a deadline for her upcoming movie, A Wrinkle in Time,
Speaker 1: and we covered a lot of ground from her relationship
Speaker 1: with her frequent collaborator, somebody named uh Oprah I think
Speaker 1: is her name. You may have heard of her. I
Speaker 1: think that's how you pun the official Ava diverne a
Speaker 1: Barbie and how she went from doing pr and publicity
Speaker 1: to making movies, a pretty dramatic career transition. And folks,
Speaker 1: by the way, you know the drill. We left our studio,
Speaker 1: We ventured out into the actual world for this recording,
Speaker 1: and so the audio isn't perfect because we did it
Speaker 1: in Ava's office, so we hope you'll forgive us for that.
Speaker 1: And in Ava's office where she had very good snacks,
Speaker 1: we might add, including those little breadsticks with nutella. She
Speaker 1: told me to help myself. So what can I say? People,
Speaker 1: I did? You taught me the true meaning of asking forgiveness,
Speaker 1: not permission anyway. So here's our conversation with the one
Speaker 1: and only Ava to Burney, I kept thinking about the
Speaker 1: Alicia Key song this girl is on BiH my god woman.
Speaker 1: First of all, thank you for doing our podcast. You're
Speaker 1: doing a million things too, so you're my girl. People
Speaker 1: don't know we hang out when we're Yeah, we've partied together.
Speaker 1: That's your party together. Yeah, well, I'm We first met
Speaker 1: at Sundance and we sat across the table from her.
Speaker 1: I think she probably thought I was super weird at
Speaker 1: the time. Ava. She was obviously doing great things, but
Speaker 1: it was really before start a huge development in Ava's
Speaker 1: career or causation. We don't know very little to do that,
Speaker 1: but I was snedd then by Ava's backstory, which I
Speaker 1: want to get to in a moment, but first we
Speaker 1: have to say muscle mozzle, Ava, because you have been
Speaker 1: nominated for lots o Emmy eight Emmys, eight Emmys for
Speaker 1: thirteenth and you know, the great thing about it is
Speaker 1: when it happens, it doesn't feel like you thought it would.
Speaker 1: It feels lovely, but like a cherry on top, because
Speaker 1: the main thing was making the piece and people loving
Speaker 1: it and responding to it. So when the nominations came in,
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, wow, this is lovely. I was
Speaker 1: more excited for my editor and for my my sound
Speaker 1: mixer who all got nominated and uh. And so it
Speaker 1: just helps me stay focused because I just like telling
Speaker 1: the stories and I like the people's reaction because everyone
Speaker 1: walks up to me about thirteen. You know, people walk up,
Speaker 1: they want to talk about it. And so it's been
Speaker 1: a gift that keeps on giving. It's it's still though,
Speaker 1: must be a nice piece of validation for you, right, nice.
Speaker 1: I just didn't doesn't hit the same as I always
Speaker 1: dreamed it would. You know, you think you're you're making
Speaker 1: the speech in the mirror, and you your brush is
Speaker 1: this is a trophy. You know what it made. You
Speaker 1: think it's going to feel a certain way. It's really nice,
Speaker 1: but the way isn't everything that I thought it would be.
Speaker 1: But it did feel I think, sort of like a
Speaker 1: disc when you weren't nominated for Selma for a lot
Speaker 1: of other people, I never thought it would be nominated.
Speaker 1: I'm on record a long time before the nomination saying
Speaker 1: it wouldn't want to because I don't know anyone in
Speaker 1: my in my in my branch. It's very much about
Speaker 1: you know, I have no connection Sider's Club, Yeah, and
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't know them and they don't know me,
Speaker 1: and so that's a big part of what that is.
Speaker 1: It's just that connection with your peers, and I didn't
Speaker 1: have it at that Hollywood is just like high school.
Speaker 1: Another little bit as a movie goer, I really resented
Speaker 1: it even if you didn't, even if it didn't but
Speaker 1: but no, no, really, if I didn't even know you
Speaker 1: and the movie Selma and the fact that, um, I
Speaker 1: thought it was a fantastic movie, and I think it
Speaker 1: should have been recognized. But I think this was sort
Speaker 1: of on the cusp of people understanding how undiverse the Oscar.
Speaker 1: It was. The year before this was the that was
Speaker 1: the year that said all that conversation helped to spur
Speaker 1: the Oscar. And I think that that was valid that
Speaker 1: came from the fans and uh, and it was a
Speaker 1: valid conversation that needed to happen, not just for people
Speaker 1: of color, but for women, which has become a big,
Speaker 1: big conversation now, so they people thinking differently about it.
Speaker 1: And so I'm happy that that campaign was effective. Do
Speaker 1: you think it drove real change? It did? I mean
Speaker 1: it was. It was definitely had fundamental changes within the
Speaker 1: academy in terms of the ways in which new members
Speaker 1: are brought in, in terms of the ways in which
Speaker 1: the conversations that are had around the table. Um. I
Speaker 1: know because I've been sitting in them and I can
Speaker 1: see how they've changed since I joined the Academy in
Speaker 1: two thousand twelve to now radically different. Isn't it amazing
Speaker 1: how when people are made aware of an issue, how
Speaker 1: rapidly in some cases, change can happen so fast, I
Speaker 1: really can What do you think it were the keys
Speaker 1: to to changing sort of the color if you will,
Speaker 1: at the Academy and and and the choices they were making.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it was the uproar and the
Speaker 1: outrage and the real urgency that people were feeling at
Speaker 1: the time about this is unacceptable. And it's not as
Speaker 1: if the conversation hadn't happened before. But there was something
Speaker 1: of alchemy about, you know, whatever whatever was going on
Speaker 1: the culture around that time, Black lives matter, Absolutely there
Speaker 1: was there was at the forefront. There was a conversation,
Speaker 1: whether it be people of color or women, that this
Speaker 1: was no longer something that could be uh set aside.
Speaker 1: But when you're talking about change, you know, we were
Speaker 1: talking about another conversation we had about um about your
Speaker 1: your dock and your dock work. How quickly I even
Speaker 1: look at the trans community, how quickly, I mean, I
Speaker 1: can think of three years ago, no one even knew
Speaker 1: how to articulate or what it meant or how or
Speaker 1: had a respect for it being a uh, you know,
Speaker 1: an issue that we all had to embrace or a
Speaker 1: reality that we had to embrace or we should embrace.
Speaker 1: And now it feels very you could have a conversation
Speaker 1: with people and they may not know everything that they
Speaker 1: should know, but there's at least a base of recognition.
Speaker 1: And that's been I mean, what would you say I'd
Speaker 1: say to three years and I being concerned of it now,
Speaker 1: I think you're right, And I think that Caitlyn Jenner
Speaker 1: did a lot to bring it out into the forefront
Speaker 1: and then that provided I think a foundation for a
Speaker 1: conversation to talk about it, and then actually paid the
Speaker 1: way for a documentary like mine that couldn't have happened,
Speaker 1: I think, in a weird way without Kasman kind of
Speaker 1: making more people understand that this was an actual phenomenon
Speaker 1: and that this was something that was affecting a lot
Speaker 1: of people that was being kept in the closets. That's
Speaker 1: a reality for a lot of people. And before we
Speaker 1: go further down this road, I want to talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about who you are and where you come from.
Speaker 1: People you don't know, because you grew up a few
Speaker 1: miles but also a world away from here, near Compton.
Speaker 1: And you've talked a lot about this. How how did
Speaker 1: your childhood and background kind of shape the director that
Speaker 1: you are today. Had a beautiful childhood, very you know,
Speaker 1: lovely community, very tight knit, a gorgeous, loving family, UM,
Speaker 1: but my childhood was in a community that was, you know, uh,
Speaker 1: kind of besieged by l a p D at that
Speaker 1: time that really used excessive force and instances when it
Speaker 1: wasn't necessary, and instances of everyday life, the constant surveillance,
Speaker 1: the police presence living under that made it so that
Speaker 1: I'm hyper aware of issues of criminal justice and and
Speaker 1: and the ways in which law enforcement of really um
Speaker 1: can kind of rule with an iron hand in some places.
Speaker 1: And so that that's made its way in my work,
Speaker 1: from the early narrative films to The Docks Now to
Speaker 1: the TV show Uhich is something that's a part of
Speaker 1: my DNA and something I just want to continue to
Speaker 1: talk about. Did you have any firsthand experiences a growing
Speaker 1: up where you know an image has stuck with you
Speaker 1: or an experience has stuck with you. I just read
Speaker 1: a Brian Stevenson Peace and the New York Review of
Speaker 1: Books about he was your so great. And I guess
Speaker 1: that same story about being a young lawyer in Atlanta
Speaker 1: and a racially mixed neighborhood was also in his book
Speaker 1: US Mercy. You know, you and I both have a
Speaker 1: complete crush on Bryan. Really Equal Justice Initiative and my
Speaker 1: daughter's working for the Southern Poverty Law Center exactly have
Speaker 1: to connect that. But anyway, I mean that experience he
Speaker 1: described Brian real quickly. He was coming home. He was
Speaker 1: listening to a radio show about slide in the family stone.
Speaker 1: You could just put yourself. He was staying in the
Speaker 1: cars sometimes you do when you're you're mesmerized by something
Speaker 1: on the radio. And Atlanta police officer came. Apparently someone
Speaker 1: had made a call. He was, as I said, in
Speaker 1: a racially mixed neighborhood, basically almost you know, killed him.
Speaker 1: And the fear that he had as this Harvard educated
Speaker 1: lawyer coming back from his firm, and I don't know
Speaker 1: that the scene, he said, was so profoundly moving to me,
Speaker 1: and it really made you realize in sharp relief what
Speaker 1: it was like. What about you, Eva? Was there anything
Speaker 1: for you that made you this is completely screwed up.
Speaker 1: Many many little things throughout my my growing up, but
Speaker 1: there was one in particular around my father recently onto
Speaker 1: another realm recently departed, and he was in his our
Speaker 1: house watering the lawn in the backyard of his own
Speaker 1: home and police came through the side gate and wrestled
Speaker 1: him to the ground in his own backyard. We had
Speaker 1: to rush out of the house, UM with no warning,
Speaker 1: that didn't say anything. Guns drawn on us, my mother
Speaker 1: and and it was me. My sisters weren't there. I
Speaker 1: don't know, maybe maybe eleven or twelve, something like bad
Speaker 1: to see my father such a proud, elegant man on
Speaker 1: the ground UM with police on top of him, guns
Speaker 1: pointed at us, not knowing who we were. And basically
Speaker 1: in the end they said he matched the description of
Speaker 1: someone who was running through the neighborhood. UM, despite the
Speaker 1: fact that he was saying, this is my home, I'm
Speaker 1: the homeowner in his own backyard. Not safe. So those
Speaker 1: kinds of like I say, excessive police force and a
Speaker 1: disregard for the humanity of people, uh, something that I
Speaker 1: grew up with. It was just a part of daily
Speaker 1: life when you spoke very eloquently about this in the Atlantic.
Speaker 1: You said you'd see a cop growing up and you
Speaker 1: didn't think safety like your counterpart who didn't grow up
Speaker 1: in Compton, you'd think, oh boy, what are they coming for?
Speaker 1: And who are they coming for? Yeah, exactly. So it's
Speaker 1: be because of instances like that. So you know, I
Speaker 1: find it. It makes its way in my work. And
Speaker 1: at one point I would try to push that away
Speaker 1: and say, oh, I need to really engage with Hollywood
Speaker 1: in the ways that our standard Hollywood. But I've just
Speaker 1: tried to embrace the fact that these are the things
Speaker 1: I'm interested in, and it's okay to talk about those things,
Speaker 1: and whether it's a documentary or whether it's like a
Speaker 1: series like Queen Sugar, you know, to be able to
Speaker 1: find the spaces where I can say the things I
Speaker 1: want to say about these issues is okay to do.
Speaker 1: I read Eva, I learned something new about you every day,
Speaker 1: and I read that you actually helped cover the O
Speaker 1: J trial for Did Did I not know that? And
Speaker 1: you became disillusion with journalism. Yeah. I really really wanted
Speaker 1: to do what you do, Katie. I really wanted to
Speaker 1: be a broadcast journalist. I don't know what that was
Speaker 1: in me for all through high school and uh and
Speaker 1: going through college. That was what I wanted to do.
Speaker 1: And so anyway, I got this prestigious internship with the
Speaker 1: CBS Evening News. This isn't the Dan and rather Connie
Speaker 1: chung Era the small window when it was both of them, right,
Speaker 1: almost as prestigious as the later Katie Kurk almost, but
Speaker 1: it was a slim window when there was the two
Speaker 1: of them. And that landed at some point around the trial. Anyway,
Speaker 1: the trial was just starting, I got to sign my
Speaker 1: juror packet. I was assigned to one specific juror, and
Speaker 1: I was like, this is it. It's a few short
Speaker 1: months and I'll be on the air anchoring like this
Speaker 1: is it's all happening for me and um And basically
Speaker 1: I was kind of capped out in front of Drew's
Speaker 1: house and um and you know, kind of invited to
Speaker 1: kind of look through her I don't know, trash things,
Speaker 1: mail get a sense of when she came home, who
Speaker 1: was coming, and I just felt like that's not what
Speaker 1: I want to It was around the time O J.
Speaker 1: Tim I think things the traditional news had to become
Speaker 1: a tad more tabloid e to compete with a new world.
Speaker 1: I think I felt that, and so things were changing
Speaker 1: and I didn't I didn't take to it. Well, I
Speaker 1: wasn't good at it, and so instead I got no trash,
Speaker 1: no dirt. Yeah, well that was a bad assignment and
Speaker 1: probably not a fair representation of the kind of work
Speaker 1: have been able to do. I wouldn't stuck with it,
Speaker 1: you know. I was just I couldn't see through when
Speaker 1: you idealize something, you know. Either that That brings me
Speaker 1: back to though, the o J trial, and I just
Speaker 1: want to kind of take a left turn for a moment,
Speaker 1: because I was in the hallway when that verdict was announced,
Speaker 1: and I was actually standing near o J's kids. And
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if either of you remember. Of course
Speaker 1: you remember the external outside reaction, but the black and
Speaker 1: white reaction was dramatically but I mean, I know you
Speaker 1: remember that. But in that hallway was a microcosm of
Speaker 1: sorts of this racial divide in this country. And I'm
Speaker 1: curious what you thought about the reaction by the African
Speaker 1: American community, because I have to say I was, I
Speaker 1: was stunned. Um, you know, I knew Johnny Cochrane very well,
Speaker 1: and the whole defense team. I actually loved Johnny cochrane.
Speaker 1: And and yet it was pretty clear that O J
Speaker 1: had committed this crime, and the jubilation when he was
Speaker 1: not convicted, when he was acquitted, and the image of
Speaker 1: this very different reaction from black and white America. Uh
Speaker 1: is still somewhat hard for me. Less hard for me
Speaker 1: to understand given everything that I've explored and read and
Speaker 1: people I've talked to, But help me understand it a
Speaker 1: little more. I mean, I think it was and that
Speaker 1: we've had, you know, both document or in narrative pieces
Speaker 1: that have since explored that whole case. I mean, it
Speaker 1: was seminal case and American criminal justice, but also speak
Speaker 1: so clearly to you know, the racial divide. And I think,
Speaker 1: you know, just being around at that time I was
Speaker 1: in college, the feeling was, you know, so often the
Speaker 1: criminal justice system is unjust towards the black man, right,
Speaker 1: It's so skewed, it's so destructive. I mean, day in
Speaker 1: and day out, years and years of never winning, of
Speaker 1: never that the win on such a hype in such
Speaker 1: a high profile way, even though intellectually you know this
Speaker 1: is not a good guy, but the optics and the
Speaker 1: triumph of finally being on the on the winning side,
Speaker 1: I think was such a powerful um it was such
Speaker 1: a powerful feeling. Did you feel that way? I don't
Speaker 1: remember how I felt at the time about it. I
Speaker 1: don't know if it was following that close. I was
Speaker 1: in college and having a good time, But I do
Speaker 1: remember a sense of kind of drama and excitement and
Speaker 1: energy during the high speed chase. I was in l A.
Speaker 1: I saw it go by. I mean, at some point
Speaker 1: it became um, you know when when I was young
Speaker 1: and then watching it, it became it was entertainment in
Speaker 1: a way, you know, and not regarding it as you know,
Speaker 1: a life or death matter, and and people who lost
Speaker 1: their lives over this, you know, it became spectacle. It
Speaker 1: was a cultural spectacle. I think that's how people, you know,
Speaker 1: you know African Americans. Uh, some people were able to
Speaker 1: divorce themselves from the actual lives lost and say, wow,
Speaker 1: we won, when really it wasn't quite the wind that
Speaker 1: that that it was embraced as at the time. So
Speaker 1: rather than pursue journalism, you decided to move towards the entertainment.
Speaker 1: So I forget that that you wanted to do for all,
Speaker 1: they're not going to be going through. But you chose
Speaker 1: a kind of unconventional path for what you're doing. Now,
Speaker 1: you started your own marketing and publicity agency, and you
Speaker 1: did that for many years, even after you had started
Speaker 1: making films. How did that training and background inform your filmmaking.
Speaker 1: I loved films, So what that did is just allowed
Speaker 1: me to immerse myself in film even more. Uh So,
Speaker 1: I started out after the news stint um, working for
Speaker 1: studios and publicity firms that specialized in films. How do
Speaker 1: you as a film go or when you think about
Speaker 1: how do you know that a film is coming out?
Speaker 1: You know how whatever whether it's the commercial, it's the
Speaker 1: red carpet, it's the entertainment to nice piece, it's the
Speaker 1: review in the newspaper. All the ways that you know
Speaker 1: that a film is coming out, that's what the public
Speaker 1: system the marketers to do. So that's what I did,
Speaker 1: and I loved it because it gave me close proximity
Speaker 1: to filmmakers. And I love sets and movies and so
Speaker 1: just working for thirteen years and film that closely gave
Speaker 1: me a set of tools that really made up for
Speaker 1: not going to film school because I didn't go to
Speaker 1: film school, but I was working as a publicist on
Speaker 1: film sets and traveling with filmmakers, and so when I
Speaker 1: decided to make my own films, I had some bass
Speaker 1: uh to go from, even though I hadn't gone to
Speaker 1: a traditional school. And so all that marketing experience must
Speaker 1: have come in incredibly handy because so much of filmmaking
Speaker 1: today obviously is the artistry and what you're doing to
Speaker 1: to produce this this piece of work, but also to
Speaker 1: make sure it's seen and heard and that people are
Speaker 1: aware of it. I mean, I'm sure that's been Have
Speaker 1: you continue to get where your marketing has in some
Speaker 1: saying it's really odd. I don't think about marketing when
Speaker 1: I'm casting. I don't think about it when I'm making
Speaker 1: the thing, uh. And I think, knowing so much about
Speaker 1: marketing publicity, I know that you can market and publicize anything.
Speaker 1: So I just let myself be free with what I'm
Speaker 1: doing when the time comes to market and publicize. I
Speaker 1: can have different kinds of conversations with studios and networks
Speaker 1: than a lot of my filmmaking partners do our colleagues do,
Speaker 1: because I know what they're talking about in a in
Speaker 1: a deep way, um, but I really don't think about
Speaker 1: I don't think when I'm casting, Oh, this person will
Speaker 1: be good on a poster. Oh this person. I know
Speaker 1: that I can publicize this piece of paper sitting on
Speaker 1: the desk. I can do that. I can make you
Speaker 1: want to read this piece of paper on the that
Speaker 1: that must be very useful even after the film is right.
Speaker 1: So it allows me to be free in the creative
Speaker 1: because I don't feel constrained by having to do certain
Speaker 1: things in order to get publicity. Didn't you weren't you
Speaker 1: working in publicity and then you got hired to Actually
Speaker 1: that's what what movie was? That was that? So in
Speaker 1: earlier iteration you were actually I read did his homework
Speaker 1: and he tells me, really, but basically you started for someone.
Speaker 1: How crazy is that? Wait? How did that happen? And
Speaker 1: then you became the director? I know it was Lee
Speaker 1: Daniels was directing and I was not directing yet. I
Speaker 1: was asked to come on and be the publicist for
Speaker 1: it because they wanted to have conversations with the King
Speaker 1: of State and they wanted someone to be in the
Speaker 1: middle of that, and so liaison between the filmmaker and
Speaker 1: the family and that's what I was hired to do
Speaker 1: my path A, the French financers. I still have the
Speaker 1: contract where I signed to be the publicist, but the
Speaker 1: film never went forward, so that fell apart art. I
Speaker 1: did get paid though, and and so years later, maybe
Speaker 1: five years later. You know life, you know, life is mysterious.
Speaker 1: Crazy Daniels made the Butt Lord. He said that he
Speaker 1: had sort of made his civil rights movie, so he
Speaker 1: didn't produce. Yeah, he left the project and David or
Speaker 1: Yellow Woll had been cast by him and remained with
Speaker 1: the project. David Yellow was the actor who played Dr King.
Speaker 1: I just happened to work with David Yellow on my
Speaker 1: little indie film. So David said, you know this film
Speaker 1: doesn't have a director. You're a director. I want to
Speaker 1: work with the kid. Can I put you together with
Speaker 1: the with path A the French financiers? And I was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I know them already. I'm the publicist for this movie.
Speaker 1: You want to kiss David on the mouth? I do,
Speaker 1: and I do often. Yes, yes, yes, he's a great friend.
Speaker 1: But yeah he basically when I think of like one Simon,
Speaker 1: a moment of one person who made a critical decision
Speaker 1: that helped me sit where I am today talking to
Speaker 1: you at Disney on you know, posting Wrinkling time. It
Speaker 1: was David connecting me to SMA. Well, it had a
Speaker 1: million dollar budget, and while I think obviously clearly David
Speaker 1: thought you were extraordinarily talented and had great potential, I
Speaker 1: mean that was a pretty big leap, wasn't it. Eva.
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, the film before it was two d
Speaker 1: thousand to twenty million. But you know the bottom line
Speaker 1: is so many of my male counterparts make that leap
Speaker 1: and no one blinks an eye. I mean it's a
Speaker 1: it's a standard leap from INDI two million range, So
Speaker 1: I mean it's not unprecedented in any way, and it
Speaker 1: was quite easy. So, without relitigating the kind of the
Speaker 1: controversy around how lb J was portrayed in that film,
Speaker 1: because I think that's been discussed at length, I do
Speaker 1: want to know your view on sort of how much
Speaker 1: of responsibility filmmakers have when they're depicting historical events to
Speaker 1: be as truthful as possible, or is there artistic license
Speaker 1: to tell the story in a way that the diverges
Speaker 1: a little bit from the facts of history. Where where
Speaker 1: is that line drawn? To you? Yeah, I think It
Speaker 1: was interesting because during that time there was a bar
Speaker 1: that I was being held to, a standards that was
Speaker 1: being held to that you know, counterparts two are not
Speaker 1: African American are not held to you know, when I
Speaker 1: look at Oliver Stone, when I look at Catherine Bigelow,
Speaker 1: when I look at many many people who've taken a
Speaker 1: really Scott, I mean so many people that are dealing
Speaker 1: with issues around history or or true events, UM that
Speaker 1: are kind of not ricked over those coals. I think
Speaker 1: there are a lot of stones movies aren't true to history.
Speaker 1: But the idea that when you say the word story,
Speaker 1: you're inserting um opinion, perspective in a certain point of view.
Speaker 1: I mean, we can all tell the story of sitting
Speaker 1: here in this room together right now, and we will
Speaker 1: all tell it in a different way. I'm seeing and
Speaker 1: feeling different things, and you may be sealing our feeling
Speaker 1: and that's your version of the story and your version
Speaker 1: of the story. Who's to say what's wrong and what's not?
Speaker 1: And I so I think gross distortions are one thing.
Speaker 1: I think perspective is another. And in Selma, I took
Speaker 1: the perspective of an African American community and the ways
Speaker 1: in which I'll be lb J was regarded by us
Speaker 1: by a lot of black folk, and uh, and so
Speaker 1: that was deemed as wrong and kind of held up
Speaker 1: as wrong by the LBG LBJ Library. But again, all
Speaker 1: I was saying was it's a matter of perspective, and
Speaker 1: can't we invite more perspectives into a historical context. What
Speaker 1: did you make of that whole controversy? Yeah, but I've
Speaker 1: said that before. We'll have more with Ava Duverney from
Speaker 1: her office here on the Disney lot in beautiful downtown
Speaker 1: Burbank right after this, and now back to our conversation
Speaker 1: with Avia di Verney. Let's talk about what you're doing now,
Speaker 1: because we're here in in Burbank and lovely downtown Burbank,
Speaker 1: and you are editing your brains out on on this
Speaker 1: new movie or working on called A Wrinkling Time, which
Speaker 1: of course many of us read as children. This is
Speaker 1: something that you're working on with Oprah Winfrey. She's one
Speaker 1: of the stars. She's one of the stars. And Crispine
Speaker 1: and you guys have been shooting in New sing Is
Speaker 1: that right? Yeah, we Shotmindy and Reese and Oprah and
Speaker 1: Eye and Storm read the Star of the film Young
Speaker 1: Star of the film. I went to New Zealand. I
Speaker 1: never know you can have so much fun, you know,
Speaker 1: in another in another, in a place that just it's
Speaker 1: very pristine. It's just nature. It's untapped. Nature's where we were.
Speaker 1: And I'm from the continent, from the city. I like
Speaker 1: city girls, Like what is one to do here? Everything?
Speaker 1: You know what I mean? What did you do? I
Speaker 1: just to make a movie like I don't swim like
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't like dogs and animals like I
Speaker 1: really I like to be inside and in the city
Speaker 1: like I am not. Like I've never not a hiker, no,
Speaker 1: never camped like none of that Zealand loving it boots
Speaker 1: mad up to my ankles in the jungles in the
Speaker 1: forest and they have a little bit of everything. I thought.
Speaker 1: And I'm like forty four years old experiencing nature untouched
Speaker 1: for the first time. How were you? There were everybody
Speaker 1: about three weeks and I visited over that year before
Speaker 1: four times. And the scouting in the preparation, Oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: I want to go to New Zealand. You'll love it.
Speaker 1: Will come for the premiere? Okay, yeah, when is it?
Speaker 1: Times in March? I definitely want to go when it's warm,
Speaker 1: because they're they're summer is our winter. So I was
Speaker 1: thinking about maybe trying to do a bite trip to
Speaker 1: New Zealand. You love it, you love it, and you
Speaker 1: can finish it up with the premiere of I don't
Speaker 1: know problem. But how did you and Oprah become friends
Speaker 1: and colleague? He was around David Yellow. He's like my
Speaker 1: fairy godfather is six degrees of David. Obviously initially with
Speaker 1: Selma no before that. Initially before that he had given
Speaker 1: her when they were working on The Butlers. He played
Speaker 1: her son. And he was in this small film for
Speaker 1: me that at one Sundance and he said, hey, check
Speaker 1: out this film. I man. I said, I can't believe
Speaker 1: you're asking Hope for one for to watch her indie
Speaker 1: film that for two dollars. But he did, and she did.
Speaker 1: She watched it, and she wrote me and said that
Speaker 1: she and she tweeted me. I thought I framed the tweet.
Speaker 1: I was run in the net over went free tweeted
Speaker 1: me and but she tweeted that she liked the film
Speaker 1: and encouraged people to see it. And from there, as
Speaker 1: it continued on, um we started to all collaborate on
Speaker 1: Selma and next Queen Sugar and next Wrinkland time. And
Speaker 1: you told a very funny story about bringing flowers to
Speaker 1: Oprah's house. All right, Well, you know, the first time
Speaker 1: I'm invited to her home was up for Mother's Day.
Speaker 1: I brought my grandmother, uh and she had a lovely
Speaker 1: Mother's Day brunch and I went in and of course
Speaker 1: you're gonna bring flowers to someone comes to their homes.
Speaker 1: So I went, Katie. I spent the most I've ever
Speaker 1: spent on flowers. I went to the fanciest place in
Speaker 1: l A. How much did you spend on It was
Speaker 1: like it was like five with the flowers. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's like, that's what's right. And so I went and
Speaker 1: I bought these flowers because it's Oprah. I really want
Speaker 1: to make a good impression. I wanted and let her
Speaker 1: know how much she means to me have these flowers.
Speaker 1: I go in and I give them to her, and
Speaker 1: she's lovely and gracious. She looks at them like she's
Speaker 1: never seen flowers. Oh oh, aren't they lovely? Thank you?
Speaker 1: And she takes the flowers and she doesn't hand them off,
Speaker 1: she takes them herself. She puts them in the sink,
Speaker 1: the whole thing, and out the window of the sink,
Speaker 1: I can see past the kitchen window a field of
Speaker 1: endless flowers. She's got a garden that looks like the
Speaker 1: botanical gardens of whatever the best botanical gardens are with
Speaker 1: like gardeners in green green jackets, like tending to the
Speaker 1: tulips that was there was no garden. What is it
Speaker 1: that makes Oprah that you know what I mean, to
Speaker 1: not blink and eye, to still make you feel special
Speaker 1: even though you brought flowers when she's got to fill
Speaker 1: the flower it's just the extra thing. She's one of
Speaker 1: those people they you say, you leave her feeling better
Speaker 1: about yourself, even in a quick encounter. Its lovely lady,
Speaker 1: and she's very normal. Yeah, she's a very normal, lovely woman.
Speaker 1: So I know we've got limited time, and I do
Speaker 1: want to ask you in the wake of thirteen about
Speaker 1: the prospects for criminal justice reform in this country, because
Speaker 1: that was supposed to be the one thing that Democrats
Speaker 1: and Republicans could get together bipartisan moment exactly didn't happen
Speaker 1: last year. The prospects have gone down dramatically under President Trump,
Speaker 1: where do you see this issue going? You know, I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't have the answers to where it's going, especially
Speaker 1: when I think of the political layer and how dire
Speaker 1: things are right now. But I know what it's done
Speaker 1: in the community. Uh, It's created a unity and a
Speaker 1: real strength around the issues, where you know, places that
Speaker 1: might once have been fractured around it are really coming
Speaker 1: together and holding hands. It's a very intersectional effort in
Speaker 1: terms of you know, you can see Black Lives Matter
Speaker 1: activists connected with the Native Americans in their plight. You
Speaker 1: can see Native Americans, uh, you know, focused on the
Speaker 1: Flint water crisis and starting to see the connections between
Speaker 1: people who are marginalized across you know, color, religion. I
Speaker 1: mean the ways in which all kinds of communities of
Speaker 1: color and marginalized people are standing up for Muslim Americans.
Speaker 1: So there's something that's happening there that I think I
Speaker 1: have to be hopeful is and then and then just
Speaker 1: like minded you know, uh, you know, liberal allies who
Speaker 1: who aren't of color and who aren't women right saying
Speaker 1: we will stand with you and we we are part
Speaker 1: of this. I feel that, um, and I think that's
Speaker 1: only going to increase as the kind of the opposition increases.
Speaker 1: Even the Koch Brothers are behind criminal justice reform, and
Speaker 1: they you know here they are have very disparate views
Speaker 1: from sort of the traditional progressive point of view, but uh,
Speaker 1: they feel strongly that something has got to be done
Speaker 1: about mass incarceration and criminal justice reform. But and this woman,
Speaker 1: Agnes Gunn have you heard of? Uh? And what she did?
Speaker 1: She saw at the New York Film Festival premier. She
Speaker 1: immediately called the Four Foundations and said, what can I do?
Speaker 1: They said, well, you got money, what do you want
Speaker 1: to do? And she decided to sell her her artwork
Speaker 1: um and create a fund for criminal justice Art for Justice,
Speaker 1: a hundred and sixty million dollars uh that she's put
Speaker 1: aside from her art sales specifically earmarked for criminal justice reform.
Speaker 1: So people are you know, from that to people that
Speaker 1: are planning community actions in their neighborhoods, there's a lot
Speaker 1: going on. But clearly President Trump and Attorney General Sessions
Speaker 1: in particular have cut against that grain. And they believe
Speaker 1: in the old you know, policy of mandatory minimums and
Speaker 1: lock them up and and all the rest. Do you
Speaker 1: think that they're doing this because substantively they believe in
Speaker 1: those policies, or do you think there are political motivations
Speaker 1: behind that, Oh, political motivations. I think they are racist policies,
Speaker 1: misogynistic policies, policies that are at odds with the good
Speaker 1: of humanity. So they're going to race part in your
Speaker 1: in your mind, I think that they are. Not that
Speaker 1: they're disingenuous in their you know, statements that they're they're
Speaker 1: looking to make America great. The question is what America
Speaker 1: are they trying to make great. It's a very thin
Speaker 1: slice and it leaves behind and leaves out a whole
Speaker 1: bunch of people that look like me and so uh so, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, the easy sound bite is to say they're
Speaker 1: playing the race car. But that's not what I'm interested
Speaker 1: in talking about. I'm interested in saying, you know, these
Speaker 1: folks are saying one thing and behaving another way, and
Speaker 1: there are a lot of people who have uh kind
Speaker 1: of blinders on as to the real destruction that's happening
Speaker 1: in terms of the fabric of what holds us all together.
Speaker 1: So do you think, I mean, what what can be dune?
Speaker 1: What more? I mean, I think sometimes people see a
Speaker 1: movie like thirteenth, which I thought was so extraordinary. My daughter,
Speaker 1: I thought it was so important and and they say,
Speaker 1: we've got to change this, but they also in some
Speaker 1: ways feel powerless. You know. So someone listening to this
Speaker 1: wanted to do something that would contribute to kind of
Speaker 1: transformation for the criminal justice system or some kind of change,
Speaker 1: what would you tell them to do? Well? I think
Speaker 1: you know, the reason why I didn't put any easy
Speaker 1: solutions or one d number of website or anything at
Speaker 1: the end of thirteen to action or a call to
Speaker 1: action is because you know, it is an an individual quest.
Speaker 1: You know, who were you at this time and what
Speaker 1: did you do? You know, during these circumstances you were
Speaker 1: in the world at this time, you saw an injustice.
Speaker 1: What did you do? And that answer is going to
Speaker 1: be different for everyone. For Agnes Kunnant was one thing.
Speaker 1: For Malkia Cyril, who works in Oakland and organizes folks
Speaker 1: on the ground there, it's a different thing. And so
Speaker 1: the question is a personal to intimate question because I
Speaker 1: think it's really kind of surface to donate or or
Speaker 1: or sign a petition. Our question with thirteen is look inside,
Speaker 1: what of this whole story really really hit your heart
Speaker 1: and what can you do where you are? And some
Speaker 1: of it, av I think is just asking people to
Speaker 1: see the world different or and behave and treat and
Speaker 1: treating right. And it could just be it could inform
Speaker 1: their day to day interactions and how they analyze a
Speaker 1: news story, or how they look at something that's transpiring
Speaker 1: in their neighborhobsolutely, or how they teach their children. I
Speaker 1: wanted to ask you about Central Park five because you
Speaker 1: are now doing a scripted version of that story for Netflix.
Speaker 1: Something that I covered um I interviewed the victim of
Speaker 1: of of a rape and brutal beating in Central Park
Speaker 1: for which these kids were blamed and convicted and by
Speaker 1: President Trump, who took out a full page ad, as
Speaker 1: I recall at the time, saying that these people who
Speaker 1: were accused of the crime and later exonerated, tell me
Speaker 1: why how that came about and why you're excited about
Speaker 1: this project. I'm on fire for this project. This is
Speaker 1: something that I heard about when I was a teenager.
Speaker 1: Those guys the same age as I am, and I
Speaker 1: was on the East Coast in Los Angeles. They were
Speaker 1: in New York and Harlem, uh, and I remember hearing
Speaker 1: it and and tuning into it because they were my age.
Speaker 1: They look like me, they look like my friend. And
Speaker 1: I remember because the news kept talking about this word wilding, wilding,
Speaker 1: and I was like, what's wilding? What it was? So
Speaker 1: I called my cousin who lives in New York. I
Speaker 1: was like, what's wilding? Is that? Is that a slaying
Speaker 1: like New York slaying? And they're like, nah, we don't
Speaker 1: know what it is, right, So even that term is
Speaker 1: so fascinating. Well, it was a made up term by
Speaker 1: the media that was that was based on a on
Speaker 1: a slang term called wilding out, which is something totally different.
Speaker 1: It's like I'm just gonna wild out tonight, have fun.
Speaker 1: And so it was just this whole distortion of black
Speaker 1: youth culture at the time that really just you know,
Speaker 1: came into my head and just never let go that.
Speaker 1: When I saw Sarah Burns great documentary Central Park five,
Speaker 1: it just ignited it even more. And when I got
Speaker 1: to kind of follow where these guys what they had
Speaker 1: gone through, it really, um it just took hold of
Speaker 1: my heart. So I started to correspond with one of them,
Speaker 1: Raymond Santana, on Twitter. He had actually reached out to
Speaker 1: me on Twitter City like my stuff. I was like,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, you wanted this gentral Park five. We
Speaker 1: started to correspond and I started to ask about their rights,
Speaker 1: and um, over two years, we've developed it and we're
Speaker 1: going to shoot it next year. Yeah. Twitter seems it'll
Speaker 1: be out for the thirtieth anniversary of the crime. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and Twitter seems to be playing a central role in
Speaker 1: your career because you're set also for Netflix to direct
Speaker 1: this movie starring Rihanna and Loupete and Nyongo that started
Speaker 1: as a kind of internet dream on Twitter. We have
Speaker 1: confirmed that that's not a done deal yet, but the
Speaker 1: ladies are all talking about it and we'll see if
Speaker 1: we can. We can, uh if it's something real, but
Speaker 1: it's fun. I mean, just the power of the people
Speaker 1: on Twitter. Can you just briefly tell us that story
Speaker 1: just just a Twitter idea, an idea that actually started
Speaker 1: on Tumbler and then Twitter and then kind of made
Speaker 1: its way around social media from a couple of different
Speaker 1: fans who saw this picture of Lupita and Rihanna at
Speaker 1: a fashion show and started to make up stories about
Speaker 1: the picture and it started to go viral. Some of
Speaker 1: these different ones went viral, and eventually studios started well
Speaker 1: online people said, oh, wouldn't be great if Avia directed,
Speaker 1: Isa Ray wrote it and these women were in a
Speaker 1: movie and uh, and then studio started calling and are
Speaker 1: going to do it? We're all we're going to do
Speaker 1: but we're all talking about it. That's crazy, isn't that?
Speaker 1: How these were these ideas bubble up. You never now
Speaker 1: And finally I know you're you're itching to continue your
Speaker 1: editing process, and you're so kind to give us even
Speaker 1: this much time. But I have to ask you about
Speaker 1: the AVA to Barney Barbie, right, how was that? That
Speaker 1: was a thing that just even now when I hear
Speaker 1: about it, it just tickles me. Ah, that is a
Speaker 1: thing that even you know, when we were started the
Speaker 1: conversation talking about how the Emmys feel and all that stuff,
Speaker 1: that feels like I thought an Emmy would feel that Barbie,
Speaker 1: I mean, what a thing? How How can it be?
Speaker 1: I used to love barbies. That was my first storytelling.
Speaker 1: It's playing with barbies and making up those stories. And
Speaker 1: when I saw at the time you probably didn't have
Speaker 1: many barbies who look like I did not. I did not,
Speaker 1: I did not, And so I mean, what a thing?
Speaker 1: And she has her own director's chair and she's got
Speaker 1: like like and it's this that's the thing that really
Speaker 1: lifts my heart. And yeah, so loud and well, you've
Speaker 1: got your own Barbie, You've gotta all these Emmy nominations
Speaker 1: doing incredible work. I mean, do you have a second
Speaker 1: to say, take a breath, Ava and say, wow, this
Speaker 1: is happening for me. And I feel so so happy.
Speaker 1: I do. And it's so cool that I get to
Speaker 1: talk to you this week because I was just talking
Speaker 1: with Oprah. I said, this is a really special week
Speaker 1: for me because on Monday's Central Park five was announced. Um,
Speaker 1: on Tuesday we had this big cover of Ebony magazine,
Speaker 1: which is a you know, landmark magazine in the black community,
Speaker 1: with the cast of Queen Sugar, a show that came
Speaker 1: out of my head in my heart, which we didn't
Speaker 1: even have a chance. That was Tuesday. On Wednesday, we
Speaker 1: released the first pictures of Wrinkle, the first pictures that
Speaker 1: anyone had seen of it. And then today Thursday, I
Speaker 1: sit with you with the Emmy nominations and I can
Speaker 1: just say, wow, a week of beauty and happiness. I
Speaker 1: feel so happy. You know, Yes, I'm moving around I'm
Speaker 1: going fast, but I am smelling the roses and they
Speaker 1: smell good, smell beautiful. They should because everything is coming
Speaker 1: up roses for you, Ava, Thank you so much. This
Speaker 1: was so funny. We can't wait to see what you
Speaker 1: do next for next and next. Thanks Katie, appreciate, thank you. Bye.
Speaker 1: To the team who helps make this show possible. Thank you,
Speaker 1: Thank you very much our producer Gianna Palmer, our production
Speaker 1: assistant Nora Richie, Ryan Connor for recording Burbank, Jared O'Connell
Speaker 1: for mixing this show, plus of course alis At Bresnik
Speaker 1: on social media, and Emily Beena who holds down the
Speaker 1: fort at Katie Kirk Media. Mark Phillips wrote, are fantastic
Speaker 1: theme music. Thank you Mark. If you have questions, comments,
Speaker 1: are concerns, less you forget, you can email us at
Speaker 1: comments at kirrekt podcast dot com or please leave us
Speaker 1: a voicemail at four four six three seven. We truly
Speaker 1: love hearing from our listeners. We'd love to hear what
Speaker 1: you like, what you don't like, and what we can
Speaker 1: do more on the show that might please you. And
Speaker 1: if you can't get enough of us, I'm at Katie
Speaker 1: Couric on Twitter and Instagram, and Katie dot correct on Snapchat.
Speaker 1: You can find me on Facebook as well. Brian is
Speaker 1: tweeting up a storm meanwhile over at Goldsmith b on
Speaker 1: Twitter and Don't Forget. We so appreciate your ratings and
Speaker 1: reviews over at Apple Podcasts and subscribe as well. Please
Speaker 1: catch you later, dear listeners, Thanks for listening show