WEBVTT - Ava DuVernay: Groundbreaker 0:00:05.680 --> 0:00:08.799 Hi, Brian, Hi Katie. Well, I'm very excited about our 0:00:08.840 --> 0:00:13.360 podcast today. It's a conversation with Ava di Verney, who 0:00:13.440 --> 0:00:18.320 has become so accomplished. She's everywhere these days. I first 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:21.360 met her at the Sundance Film Festival a couple of 0:00:21.440 --> 0:00:24.599 years ago, and she really wasn't a household name back then, 0:00:24.720 --> 0:00:27.639 but I think today she's become one. Of course, she's 0:00:27.680 --> 0:00:32.560 done such critically acclaimed documentaries, like she has a show 0:00:32.720 --> 0:00:36.720 called Queen Sugar, which has also gotten a lot of attention. 0:00:37.000 --> 0:00:40.120 And of course Selma, right, Brian, I mean, that was 0:00:40.159 --> 0:00:43.159 an amazing film. If you care about the civil rights movement, 0:00:43.320 --> 0:00:47.200 or Lyndon Johnson or how the Voting Rights Act was passed, 0:00:47.240 --> 0:00:49.479 you have to see this movie. It became actually very 0:00:49.520 --> 0:00:52.839 controversial at the time, and one of the big controversies 0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:57.320 around it was why Ava was not nominated for Best Director, 0:00:57.640 --> 0:00:59.840 which we get into a little bit in this conversation, 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:03.280 and of course that omission really helped fuel the Oscars 0:01:03.320 --> 0:01:07.560 So White campaign, which really changed the face literally of 0:01:07.760 --> 0:01:11.760 the Academy. Anyway, we had the privilege of talking to 0:01:11.880 --> 0:01:14.800 Ava at Disney Studios, where she was in the middle 0:01:15.120 --> 0:01:18.600 of a deadline for her upcoming movie, A Wrinkle in Time, 0:01:19.080 --> 0:01:21.680 and we covered a lot of ground from her relationship 0:01:21.840 --> 0:01:26.240 with her frequent collaborator, somebody named uh Oprah I think 0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:27.920 is her name. You may have heard of her. I 0:01:27.920 --> 0:01:31.800 think that's how you pun the official Ava diverne a 0:01:32.000 --> 0:01:36.480 Barbie and how she went from doing pr and publicity 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:42.240 to making movies, a pretty dramatic career transition. And folks, 0:01:42.319 --> 0:01:44.960 by the way, you know the drill. We left our studio, 0:01:45.000 --> 0:01:48.040 We ventured out into the actual world for this recording, 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:50.760 and so the audio isn't perfect because we did it 0:01:50.800 --> 0:01:53.080 in Ava's office, so we hope you'll forgive us for that. 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:56.040 And in Ava's office where she had very good snacks, 0:01:56.120 --> 0:02:00.120 we might add, including those little breadsticks with nutella. She 0:02:00.200 --> 0:02:03.520 told me to help myself. So what can I say? People, 0:02:03.560 --> 0:02:06.800 I did? You taught me the true meaning of asking forgiveness, 0:02:06.800 --> 0:02:11.119 not permission anyway. So here's our conversation with the one 0:02:11.160 --> 0:02:16.000 and only Ava to Burney, I kept thinking about the 0:02:16.040 --> 0:02:21.799 Alicia Key song this girl is on BiH my god woman. 0:02:22.120 --> 0:02:24.440 First of all, thank you for doing our podcast. You're 0:02:24.480 --> 0:02:29.160 doing a million things too, so you're my girl. People 0:02:29.160 --> 0:02:32.920 don't know we hang out when we're Yeah, we've partied together. 0:02:33.280 --> 0:02:37.519 That's your party together. Yeah, well, I'm We first met 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:41.400 at Sundance and we sat across the table from her. 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:44.040 I think she probably thought I was super weird at 0:02:44.040 --> 0:02:48.920 the time. Ava. She was obviously doing great things, but 0:02:48.960 --> 0:02:54.079 it was really before start a huge development in Ava's 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:59.280 career or causation. We don't know very little to do that, 0:02:59.360 --> 0:03:03.240 but I was snedd then by Ava's backstory, which I 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:05.240 want to get to in a moment, but first we 0:03:05.320 --> 0:03:10.360 have to say muscle mozzle, Ava, because you have been 0:03:10.400 --> 0:03:16.920 nominated for lots o Emmy eight Emmys, eight Emmys for 0:03:16.960 --> 0:03:18.680 thirteenth and you know, the great thing about it is 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:21.160 when it happens, it doesn't feel like you thought it would. 0:03:21.680 --> 0:03:24.280 It feels lovely, but like a cherry on top, because 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:27.400 the main thing was making the piece and people loving 0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:29.920 it and responding to it. So when the nominations came in, 0:03:29.960 --> 0:03:31.320 I was like, oh, wow, this is lovely. I was 0:03:31.360 --> 0:03:34.280 more excited for my editor and for my my sound 0:03:34.320 --> 0:03:37.360 mixer who all got nominated and uh. And so it 0:03:37.400 --> 0:03:39.440 just helps me stay focused because I just like telling 0:03:39.480 --> 0:03:42.560 the stories and I like the people's reaction because everyone 0:03:42.640 --> 0:03:45.240 walks up to me about thirteen. You know, people walk up, 0:03:45.240 --> 0:03:46.960 they want to talk about it. And so it's been 0:03:47.000 --> 0:03:49.200 a gift that keeps on giving. It's it's still though, 0:03:49.360 --> 0:03:53.119 must be a nice piece of validation for you, right, nice. 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:55.680 I just didn't doesn't hit the same as I always 0:03:55.800 --> 0:03:57.920 dreamed it would. You know, you think you're you're making 0:03:57.920 --> 0:04:00.800 the speech in the mirror, and you your brush is 0:04:00.840 --> 0:04:02.960 this is a trophy. You know what it made. You 0:04:03.000 --> 0:04:05.640 think it's going to feel a certain way. It's really nice, 0:04:05.680 --> 0:04:08.200 but the way isn't everything that I thought it would be. 0:04:08.240 --> 0:04:11.480 But it did feel I think, sort of like a 0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:14.160 disc when you weren't nominated for Selma for a lot 0:04:14.200 --> 0:04:16.240 of other people, I never thought it would be nominated. 0:04:16.360 --> 0:04:18.840 I'm on record a long time before the nomination saying 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:21.240 it wouldn't want to because I don't know anyone in 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:24.200 my in my in my branch. It's very much about 0:04:24.360 --> 0:04:27.080 you know, I have no connection Sider's Club, Yeah, and 0:04:27.120 --> 0:04:29.000 I don't. I don't know them and they don't know me, 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:31.040 and so that's a big part of what that is. 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:33.400 It's just that connection with your peers, and I didn't 0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:35.200 have it at that Hollywood is just like high school. 0:04:35.200 --> 0:04:38.360 Another little bit as a movie goer, I really resented 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:43.120 it even if you didn't, even if it didn't but 0:04:43.320 --> 0:04:45.880 but no, no, really, if I didn't even know you 0:04:46.560 --> 0:04:50.159 and the movie Selma and the fact that, um, I 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:52.599 thought it was a fantastic movie, and I think it 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:55.120 should have been recognized. But I think this was sort 0:04:55.160 --> 0:05:01.720 of on the cusp of people understanding how undiverse the Oscar. 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:03.839 It was. The year before this was the that was 0:05:03.880 --> 0:05:06.479 the year that said all that conversation helped to spur 0:05:06.640 --> 0:05:09.560 the Oscar. And I think that that was valid that 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:12.240 came from the fans and uh, and it was a 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:14.640 valid conversation that needed to happen, not just for people 0:05:14.680 --> 0:05:17.240 of color, but for women, which has become a big, 0:05:17.279 --> 0:05:20.560 big conversation now, so they people thinking differently about it. 0:05:20.640 --> 0:05:23.120 And so I'm happy that that campaign was effective. Do 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:25.120 you think it drove real change? It did? I mean 0:05:25.160 --> 0:05:27.680 it was. It was definitely had fundamental changes within the 0:05:27.720 --> 0:05:31.280 academy in terms of the ways in which new members 0:05:31.279 --> 0:05:33.120 are brought in, in terms of the ways in which 0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:35.880 the conversations that are had around the table. Um. I 0:05:35.920 --> 0:05:37.760 know because I've been sitting in them and I can 0:05:37.800 --> 0:05:39.760 see how they've changed since I joined the Academy in 0:05:39.760 --> 0:05:43.360 two thousand twelve to now radically different. Isn't it amazing 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:48.000 how when people are made aware of an issue, how 0:05:48.120 --> 0:05:51.640 rapidly in some cases, change can happen so fast, I 0:05:51.720 --> 0:05:54.120 really can What do you think it were the keys 0:05:54.240 --> 0:05:57.120 to to changing sort of the color if you will, 0:05:57.200 --> 0:06:00.400 at the Academy and and and the choices they were making. 0:06:00.560 --> 0:06:02.000 I mean, I think it was the uproar and the 0:06:02.040 --> 0:06:04.560 outrage and the real urgency that people were feeling at 0:06:04.560 --> 0:06:06.480 the time about this is unacceptable. And it's not as 0:06:06.480 --> 0:06:08.880 if the conversation hadn't happened before. But there was something 0:06:08.920 --> 0:06:11.920 of alchemy about, you know, whatever whatever was going on 0:06:11.960 --> 0:06:14.880 the culture around that time, Black lives matter, Absolutely there 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:17.200 was there was at the forefront. There was a conversation, 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:20.000 whether it be people of color or women, that this 0:06:20.160 --> 0:06:23.040 was no longer something that could be uh set aside. 0:06:23.560 --> 0:06:25.640 But when you're talking about change, you know, we were 0:06:25.640 --> 0:06:29.039 talking about another conversation we had about um about your 0:06:29.200 --> 0:06:32.080 your dock and your dock work. How quickly I even 0:06:32.120 --> 0:06:35.200 look at the trans community, how quickly, I mean, I 0:06:35.240 --> 0:06:37.920 can think of three years ago, no one even knew 0:06:38.120 --> 0:06:40.680 how to articulate or what it meant or how or 0:06:40.680 --> 0:06:43.480 had a respect for it being a uh, you know, 0:06:43.640 --> 0:06:45.800 an issue that we all had to embrace or a 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:48.479 reality that we had to embrace or we should embrace. 0:06:48.600 --> 0:06:51.280 And now it feels very you could have a conversation 0:06:51.279 --> 0:06:52.880 with people and they may not know everything that they 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:55.279 should know, but there's at least a base of recognition. 0:06:55.960 --> 0:06:57.640 And that's been I mean, what would you say I'd 0:06:57.640 --> 0:07:00.440 say to three years and I being concerned of it now, 0:07:00.480 --> 0:07:02.880 I think you're right, And I think that Caitlyn Jenner 0:07:02.920 --> 0:07:05.560 did a lot to bring it out into the forefront 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:09.640 and then that provided I think a foundation for a 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:13.120 conversation to talk about it, and then actually paid the 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:16.400 way for a documentary like mine that couldn't have happened, 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:19.560 I think, in a weird way without Kasman kind of 0:07:19.640 --> 0:07:23.400 making more people understand that this was an actual phenomenon 0:07:23.480 --> 0:07:26.200 and that this was something that was affecting a lot 0:07:26.240 --> 0:07:29.240 of people that was being kept in the closets. That's 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:31.280 a reality for a lot of people. And before we 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:33.840 go further down this road, I want to talk a 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:36.240 little bit about who you are and where you come from. 0:07:36.400 --> 0:07:39.600 People you don't know, because you grew up a few 0:07:39.640 --> 0:07:43.560 miles but also a world away from here, near Compton. 0:07:43.680 --> 0:07:46.040 And you've talked a lot about this. How how did 0:07:46.120 --> 0:07:49.720 your childhood and background kind of shape the director that 0:07:49.840 --> 0:07:53.320 you are today. Had a beautiful childhood, very you know, 0:07:53.480 --> 0:07:58.280 lovely community, very tight knit, a gorgeous, loving family, UM, 0:07:58.320 --> 0:08:03.080 but my childhood was in a community that was, you know, uh, 0:08:03.240 --> 0:08:06.040 kind of besieged by l a p D at that 0:08:06.080 --> 0:08:10.080 time that really used excessive force and instances when it 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:14.880 wasn't necessary, and instances of everyday life, the constant surveillance, 0:08:14.920 --> 0:08:18.200 the police presence living under that made it so that 0:08:18.240 --> 0:08:21.480 I'm hyper aware of issues of criminal justice and and 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:24.440 and the ways in which law enforcement of really um 0:08:24.680 --> 0:08:26.960 can kind of rule with an iron hand in some places. 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:28.800 And so that that's made its way in my work, 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:31.040 from the early narrative films to The Docks Now to 0:08:31.080 --> 0:08:34.840 the TV show Uhich is something that's a part of 0:08:34.880 --> 0:08:37.360 my DNA and something I just want to continue to 0:08:37.360 --> 0:08:41.679 talk about. Did you have any firsthand experiences a growing 0:08:41.840 --> 0:08:45.320 up where you know an image has stuck with you 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:47.480 or an experience has stuck with you. I just read 0:08:47.480 --> 0:08:50.040 a Brian Stevenson Peace and the New York Review of 0:08:50.080 --> 0:08:54.120 Books about he was your so great. And I guess 0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:57.439 that same story about being a young lawyer in Atlanta 0:08:57.440 --> 0:08:59.840 and a racially mixed neighborhood was also in his book 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:02.680 US Mercy. You know, you and I both have a 0:09:02.760 --> 0:09:09.719 complete crush on Bryan. Really Equal Justice Initiative and my 0:09:09.800 --> 0:09:15.000 daughter's working for the Southern Poverty Law Center exactly have 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:18.440 to connect that. But anyway, I mean that experience he 0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:21.520 described Brian real quickly. He was coming home. He was 0:09:21.600 --> 0:09:24.080 listening to a radio show about slide in the family stone. 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:27.280 You could just put yourself. He was staying in the 0:09:27.320 --> 0:09:30.280 cars sometimes you do when you're you're mesmerized by something 0:09:30.320 --> 0:09:34.480 on the radio. And Atlanta police officer came. Apparently someone 0:09:34.520 --> 0:09:36.080 had made a call. He was, as I said, in 0:09:36.120 --> 0:09:40.680 a racially mixed neighborhood, basically almost you know, killed him. 0:09:41.120 --> 0:09:44.680 And the fear that he had as this Harvard educated 0:09:44.720 --> 0:09:48.160 lawyer coming back from his firm, and I don't know 0:09:48.280 --> 0:09:52.000 that the scene, he said, was so profoundly moving to me, 0:09:52.040 --> 0:09:55.520 and it really made you realize in sharp relief what 0:09:55.679 --> 0:09:58.160 it was like. What about you, Eva? Was there anything 0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:02.480 for you that made you this is completely screwed up. 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:06.360 Many many little things throughout my my growing up, but 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:11.400 there was one in particular around my father recently onto 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:15.760 another realm recently departed, and he was in his our 0:10:15.800 --> 0:10:19.600 house watering the lawn in the backyard of his own 0:10:19.640 --> 0:10:25.680 home and police came through the side gate and wrestled 0:10:25.760 --> 0:10:28.160 him to the ground in his own backyard. We had 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:31.280 to rush out of the house, UM with no warning, 0:10:31.320 --> 0:10:34.960 that didn't say anything. Guns drawn on us, my mother 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:39.520 and and it was me. My sisters weren't there. I 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:43.240 don't know, maybe maybe eleven or twelve, something like bad 0:10:44.040 --> 0:10:48.120 to see my father such a proud, elegant man on 0:10:48.160 --> 0:10:51.920 the ground UM with police on top of him, guns 0:10:51.960 --> 0:10:54.959 pointed at us, not knowing who we were. And basically 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:57.720 in the end they said he matched the description of 0:10:57.760 --> 0:11:00.480 someone who was running through the neighborhood. UM, despite the 0:11:00.520 --> 0:11:02.520 fact that he was saying, this is my home, I'm 0:11:02.520 --> 0:11:05.720 the homeowner in his own backyard. Not safe. So those 0:11:05.800 --> 0:11:09.360 kinds of like I say, excessive police force and a 0:11:09.400 --> 0:11:12.960 disregard for the humanity of people, uh, something that I 0:11:12.960 --> 0:11:15.319 grew up with. It was just a part of daily 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:17.960 life when you spoke very eloquently about this in the Atlantic. 0:11:18.000 --> 0:11:20.080 You said you'd see a cop growing up and you 0:11:20.080 --> 0:11:23.080 didn't think safety like your counterpart who didn't grow up 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:25.840 in Compton, you'd think, oh boy, what are they coming for? 0:11:25.880 --> 0:11:28.920 And who are they coming for? Yeah, exactly. So it's 0:11:28.920 --> 0:11:31.440 be because of instances like that. So you know, I 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:33.559 find it. It makes its way in my work. And 0:11:34.840 --> 0:11:36.520 at one point I would try to push that away 0:11:36.520 --> 0:11:39.079 and say, oh, I need to really engage with Hollywood 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:42.680 in the ways that our standard Hollywood. But I've just 0:11:42.720 --> 0:11:44.360 tried to embrace the fact that these are the things 0:11:44.400 --> 0:11:47.040 I'm interested in, and it's okay to talk about those things, 0:11:47.080 --> 0:11:49.760 and whether it's a documentary or whether it's like a 0:11:49.880 --> 0:11:52.160 series like Queen Sugar, you know, to be able to 0:11:52.160 --> 0:11:54.000 find the spaces where I can say the things I 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:55.920 want to say about these issues is okay to do. 0:11:56.080 --> 0:11:59.440 I read Eva, I learned something new about you every day, 0:11:59.800 --> 0:12:02.240 and I read that you actually helped cover the O 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:06.880 J trial for Did Did I not know that? And 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:10.320 you became disillusion with journalism. Yeah. I really really wanted 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:12.800 to do what you do, Katie. I really wanted to 0:12:12.840 --> 0:12:15.480 be a broadcast journalist. I don't know what that was 0:12:15.559 --> 0:12:20.000 in me for all through high school and uh and 0:12:20.080 --> 0:12:21.880 going through college. That was what I wanted to do. 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:25.679 And so anyway, I got this prestigious internship with the 0:12:25.760 --> 0:12:29.440 CBS Evening News. This isn't the Dan and rather Connie 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:32.000 chung Era the small window when it was both of them, right, 0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:37.840 almost as prestigious as the later Katie Kurk almost, but 0:12:37.880 --> 0:12:39.520 it was a slim window when there was the two 0:12:39.520 --> 0:12:42.800 of them. And that landed at some point around the trial. Anyway, 0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:44.920 the trial was just starting, I got to sign my 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:48.160 juror packet. I was assigned to one specific juror, and 0:12:48.200 --> 0:12:50.439 I was like, this is it. It's a few short 0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:52.360 months and I'll be on the air anchoring like this 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:58.640 is it's all happening for me and um And basically 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:00.480 I was kind of capped out in front of Drew's 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:03.880 house and um and you know, kind of invited to 0:13:03.960 --> 0:13:07.360 kind of look through her I don't know, trash things, 0:13:07.440 --> 0:13:09.559 mail get a sense of when she came home, who 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:11.480 was coming, and I just felt like that's not what 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:13.560 I want to It was around the time O J. 0:13:13.679 --> 0:13:17.600 Tim I think things the traditional news had to become 0:13:17.640 --> 0:13:21.240 a tad more tabloid e to compete with a new world. 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:24.240 I think I felt that, and so things were changing 0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:26.720 and I didn't I didn't take to it. Well, I 0:13:26.800 --> 0:13:30.000 wasn't good at it, and so instead I got no trash, 0:13:30.040 --> 0:13:34.360 no dirt. Yeah, well that was a bad assignment and 0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:37.720 probably not a fair representation of the kind of work 0:13:38.440 --> 0:13:40.360 have been able to do. I wouldn't stuck with it, 0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:42.480 you know. I was just I couldn't see through when 0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:45.240 you idealize something, you know. Either that That brings me 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:47.640 back to though, the o J trial, and I just 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:49.920 want to kind of take a left turn for a moment, 0:13:49.960 --> 0:13:53.199 because I was in the hallway when that verdict was announced, 0:13:53.760 --> 0:13:57.680 and I was actually standing near o J's kids. And 0:13:58.040 --> 0:14:01.120 I'm not sure if either of you remember. Of course 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:04.240 you remember the external outside reaction, but the black and 0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:07.600 white reaction was dramatically but I mean, I know you 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:10.680 remember that. But in that hallway was a microcosm of 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:14.040 sorts of this racial divide in this country. And I'm 0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:18.439 curious what you thought about the reaction by the African 0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:22.400 American community, because I have to say I was, I 0:14:22.440 --> 0:14:26.320 was stunned. Um, you know, I knew Johnny Cochrane very well, 0:14:26.520 --> 0:14:29.760 and the whole defense team. I actually loved Johnny cochrane. 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:33.600 And and yet it was pretty clear that O J 0:14:33.760 --> 0:14:38.080 had committed this crime, and the jubilation when he was 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:41.760 not convicted, when he was acquitted, and the image of 0:14:41.800 --> 0:14:45.760 this very different reaction from black and white America. Uh 0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:48.720 is still somewhat hard for me. Less hard for me 0:14:48.800 --> 0:14:52.640 to understand given everything that I've explored and read and 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:56.560 people I've talked to, But help me understand it a 0:14:56.560 --> 0:14:58.280 little more. I mean, I think it was and that 0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:01.000 we've had, you know, both document or in narrative pieces 0:15:01.000 --> 0:15:03.120 that have since explored that whole case. I mean, it 0:15:03.160 --> 0:15:06.640 was seminal case and American criminal justice, but also speak 0:15:06.720 --> 0:15:10.160 so clearly to you know, the racial divide. And I think, 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:12.280 you know, just being around at that time I was 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:15.880 in college, the feeling was, you know, so often the 0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:19.880 criminal justice system is unjust towards the black man, right, 0:15:20.120 --> 0:15:25.120 It's so skewed, it's so destructive. I mean, day in 0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:28.160 and day out, years and years of never winning, of 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:31.760 never that the win on such a hype in such 0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:34.920 a high profile way, even though intellectually you know this 0:15:35.040 --> 0:15:37.960 is not a good guy, but the optics and the 0:15:38.600 --> 0:15:42.040 triumph of finally being on the on the winning side, 0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:45.800 I think was such a powerful um it was such 0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:49.360 a powerful feeling. Did you feel that way? I don't 0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:51.440 remember how I felt at the time about it. I 0:15:51.480 --> 0:15:52.800 don't know if it was following that close. I was 0:15:52.840 --> 0:15:55.640 in college and having a good time, But I do 0:15:55.800 --> 0:15:58.760 remember a sense of kind of drama and excitement and 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:02.320 energy during the high speed chase. I was in l A. 0:16:02.440 --> 0:16:04.640 I saw it go by. I mean, at some point 0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:07.360 it became um, you know when when I was young 0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:09.560 and then watching it, it became it was entertainment in 0:16:09.600 --> 0:16:12.840 a way, you know, and not regarding it as you know, 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:14.920 a life or death matter, and and people who lost 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:17.720 their lives over this, you know, it became spectacle. It 0:16:17.800 --> 0:16:20.680 was a cultural spectacle. I think that's how people, you know, 0:16:20.920 --> 0:16:23.480 you know African Americans. Uh, some people were able to 0:16:23.480 --> 0:16:27.080 divorce themselves from the actual lives lost and say, wow, 0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:30.480 we won, when really it wasn't quite the wind that 0:16:30.480 --> 0:16:32.960 that that it was embraced as at the time. So 0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:36.600 rather than pursue journalism, you decided to move towards the entertainment. 0:16:37.920 --> 0:16:40.560 So I forget that that you wanted to do for all, 0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:44.200 they're not going to be going through. But you chose 0:16:44.240 --> 0:16:47.000 a kind of unconventional path for what you're doing. Now, 0:16:47.120 --> 0:16:50.720 you started your own marketing and publicity agency, and you 0:16:50.760 --> 0:16:53.120 did that for many years, even after you had started 0:16:53.440 --> 0:16:59.840 making films. How did that training and background inform your filmmaking. 0:17:00.840 --> 0:17:05.600 I loved films, So what that did is just allowed 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:08.840 me to immerse myself in film even more. Uh So, 0:17:08.880 --> 0:17:13.119 I started out after the news stint um, working for 0:17:13.200 --> 0:17:17.199 studios and publicity firms that specialized in films. How do 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:18.960 you as a film go or when you think about 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:20.480 how do you know that a film is coming out? 0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:23.640 You know how whatever whether it's the commercial, it's the 0:17:23.680 --> 0:17:25.919 red carpet, it's the entertainment to nice piece, it's the 0:17:25.920 --> 0:17:28.560 review in the newspaper. All the ways that you know 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:30.720 that a film is coming out, that's what the public 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:32.760 system the marketers to do. So that's what I did, 0:17:33.119 --> 0:17:35.359 and I loved it because it gave me close proximity 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:38.320 to filmmakers. And I love sets and movies and so 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:42.000 just working for thirteen years and film that closely gave 0:17:42.040 --> 0:17:43.919 me a set of tools that really made up for 0:17:43.920 --> 0:17:46.159 not going to film school because I didn't go to 0:17:46.200 --> 0:17:48.080 film school, but I was working as a publicist on 0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:51.679 film sets and traveling with filmmakers, and so when I 0:17:51.720 --> 0:17:54.040 decided to make my own films, I had some bass 0:17:54.560 --> 0:17:56.439 uh to go from, even though I hadn't gone to 0:17:56.960 --> 0:18:00.720 a traditional school. And so all that marketing experience must 0:18:00.760 --> 0:18:04.520 have come in incredibly handy because so much of filmmaking 0:18:04.560 --> 0:18:08.920 today obviously is the artistry and what you're doing to 0:18:08.920 --> 0:18:13.199 to produce this this piece of work, but also to 0:18:13.280 --> 0:18:17.200 make sure it's seen and heard and that people are 0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:20.480 aware of it. I mean, I'm sure that's been Have 0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:23.040 you continue to get where your marketing has in some 0:18:23.320 --> 0:18:26.399 saying it's really odd. I don't think about marketing when 0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:29.000 I'm casting. I don't think about it when I'm making 0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:32.680 the thing, uh. And I think, knowing so much about 0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:36.840 marketing publicity, I know that you can market and publicize anything. 0:18:37.200 --> 0:18:39.600 So I just let myself be free with what I'm 0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:42.280 doing when the time comes to market and publicize. I 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:44.840 can have different kinds of conversations with studios and networks 0:18:44.840 --> 0:18:47.639 than a lot of my filmmaking partners do our colleagues do, 0:18:47.840 --> 0:18:50.600 because I know what they're talking about in a in 0:18:50.640 --> 0:18:52.920 a deep way, um, but I really don't think about 0:18:52.960 --> 0:18:54.560 I don't think when I'm casting, Oh, this person will 0:18:54.560 --> 0:18:56.840 be good on a poster. Oh this person. I know 0:18:56.920 --> 0:18:59.159 that I can publicize this piece of paper sitting on 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:01.840 the desk. I can do that. I can make you 0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:03.840 want to read this piece of paper on the that 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:07.359 that must be very useful even after the film is right. 0:19:07.920 --> 0:19:09.640 So it allows me to be free in the creative 0:19:09.680 --> 0:19:12.119 because I don't feel constrained by having to do certain 0:19:12.119 --> 0:19:14.639 things in order to get publicity. Didn't you weren't you 0:19:14.680 --> 0:19:17.680 working in publicity and then you got hired to Actually 0:19:18.280 --> 0:19:21.159 that's what what movie was? That was that? So in 0:19:21.400 --> 0:19:28.520 earlier iteration you were actually I read did his homework 0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:32.560 and he tells me, really, but basically you started for someone. 0:19:32.680 --> 0:19:35.320 How crazy is that? Wait? How did that happen? And 0:19:35.320 --> 0:19:37.600 then you became the director? I know it was Lee 0:19:37.720 --> 0:19:41.360 Daniels was directing and I was not directing yet. I 0:19:41.400 --> 0:19:43.040 was asked to come on and be the publicist for 0:19:43.080 --> 0:19:45.200 it because they wanted to have conversations with the King 0:19:45.200 --> 0:19:46.960 of State and they wanted someone to be in the 0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:50.119 middle of that, and so liaison between the filmmaker and 0:19:50.160 --> 0:19:52.639 the family and that's what I was hired to do 0:19:52.680 --> 0:19:55.040 my path A, the French financers. I still have the 0:19:55.200 --> 0:19:57.720 contract where I signed to be the publicist, but the 0:19:57.800 --> 0:20:00.480 film never went forward, so that fell apart art. I 0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:05.000 did get paid though, and and so years later, maybe 0:20:05.040 --> 0:20:09.160 five years later. You know life, you know, life is mysterious. 0:20:09.480 --> 0:20:11.760 Crazy Daniels made the Butt Lord. He said that he 0:20:11.800 --> 0:20:13.879 had sort of made his civil rights movie, so he 0:20:13.920 --> 0:20:16.920 didn't produce. Yeah, he left the project and David or 0:20:16.960 --> 0:20:19.240 Yellow Woll had been cast by him and remained with 0:20:19.280 --> 0:20:22.000 the project. David Yellow was the actor who played Dr King. 0:20:22.119 --> 0:20:25.119 I just happened to work with David Yellow on my 0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:27.720 little indie film. So David said, you know this film 0:20:27.720 --> 0:20:29.800 doesn't have a director. You're a director. I want to 0:20:29.840 --> 0:20:31.840 work with the kid. Can I put you together with 0:20:31.880 --> 0:20:34.640 the with path A the French financiers? And I was like, yeah, 0:20:34.640 --> 0:20:36.639 I know them already. I'm the publicist for this movie. 0:20:37.200 --> 0:20:39.160 You want to kiss David on the mouth? I do, 0:20:39.280 --> 0:20:44.000 and I do often. Yes, yes, yes, he's a great friend. 0:20:44.040 --> 0:20:46.760 But yeah he basically when I think of like one Simon, 0:20:46.840 --> 0:20:50.560 a moment of one person who made a critical decision 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:53.679 that helped me sit where I am today talking to 0:20:53.680 --> 0:20:57.080 you at Disney on you know, posting Wrinkling time. It 0:20:57.160 --> 0:21:00.080 was David connecting me to SMA. Well, it had a 0:21:00.119 --> 0:21:03.720 million dollar budget, and while I think obviously clearly David 0:21:03.760 --> 0:21:07.919 thought you were extraordinarily talented and had great potential, I 0:21:07.920 --> 0:21:10.199 mean that was a pretty big leap, wasn't it. Eva. 0:21:10.640 --> 0:21:12.680