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Speaker 1: Hi, Brian, Hi Katie. Well, I'm very excited about our

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Speaker 1: podcast today. It's a conversation with Ava di Verney, who

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Speaker 1: has become so accomplished. She's everywhere these days. I first

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Speaker 1: met her at the Sundance Film Festival a couple of

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Speaker 1: years ago, and she really wasn't a household name back then,

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Speaker 1: but I think today she's become one. Of course, she's

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Speaker 1: done such critically acclaimed documentaries, like she has a show

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Speaker 1: called Queen Sugar, which has also gotten a lot of attention.

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Speaker 1: And of course Selma, right, Brian, I mean, that was

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Speaker 1: an amazing film. If you care about the civil rights movement,

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Speaker 1: or Lyndon Johnson or how the Voting Rights Act was passed,

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Speaker 1: you have to see this movie. It became actually very

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Speaker 1: controversial at the time, and one of the big controversies

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Speaker 1: around it was why Ava was not nominated for Best Director,

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Speaker 1: which we get into a little bit in this conversation,

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Speaker 1: and of course that omission really helped fuel the Oscars

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Speaker 1: So White campaign, which really changed the face literally of

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Speaker 1: the Academy. Anyway, we had the privilege of talking to

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Speaker 1: Ava at Disney Studios, where she was in the middle

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Speaker 1: of a deadline for her upcoming movie, A Wrinkle in Time,

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Speaker 1: and we covered a lot of ground from her relationship

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Speaker 1: with her frequent collaborator, somebody named uh Oprah I think

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Speaker 1: is her name. You may have heard of her. I

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Speaker 1: think that's how you pun the official Ava diverne a

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Speaker 1: Barbie and how she went from doing pr and publicity

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Speaker 1: to making movies, a pretty dramatic career transition. And folks,

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Speaker 1: by the way, you know the drill. We left our studio,

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Speaker 1: We ventured out into the actual world for this recording,

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Speaker 1: and so the audio isn't perfect because we did it

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Speaker 1: in Ava's office, so we hope you'll forgive us for that.

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Speaker 1: And in Ava's office where she had very good snacks,

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Speaker 1: we might add, including those little breadsticks with nutella. She

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Speaker 1: told me to help myself. So what can I say? People,

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Speaker 1: I did? You taught me the true meaning of asking forgiveness,

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Speaker 1: not permission anyway. So here's our conversation with the one

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Speaker 1: and only Ava to Burney, I kept thinking about the

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Speaker 1: Alicia Key song this girl is on BiH my god woman.

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Speaker 1: First of all, thank you for doing our podcast. You're

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Speaker 1: doing a million things too, so you're my girl. People

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Speaker 1: don't know we hang out when we're Yeah, we've partied together.

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Speaker 1: That's your party together. Yeah, well, I'm We first met

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Speaker 1: at Sundance and we sat across the table from her.

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Speaker 1: I think she probably thought I was super weird at

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Speaker 1: the time. Ava. She was obviously doing great things, but

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Speaker 1: it was really before start a huge development in Ava's

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Speaker 1: career or causation. We don't know very little to do that,

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Speaker 1: but I was snedd then by Ava's backstory, which I

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Speaker 1: want to get to in a moment, but first we

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Speaker 1: have to say muscle mozzle, Ava, because you have been

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Speaker 1: nominated for lots o Emmy eight Emmys, eight Emmys for

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Speaker 1: thirteenth and you know, the great thing about it is

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Speaker 1: when it happens, it doesn't feel like you thought it would.

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Speaker 1: It feels lovely, but like a cherry on top, because

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Speaker 1: the main thing was making the piece and people loving

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Speaker 1: it and responding to it. So when the nominations came in,

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh, wow, this is lovely. I was

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Speaker 1: more excited for my editor and for my my sound

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Speaker 1: mixer who all got nominated and uh. And so it

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Speaker 1: just helps me stay focused because I just like telling

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Speaker 1: the stories and I like the people's reaction because everyone

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Speaker 1: walks up to me about thirteen. You know, people walk up,

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Speaker 1: they want to talk about it. And so it's been

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Speaker 1: a gift that keeps on giving. It's it's still though,

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Speaker 1: must be a nice piece of validation for you, right, nice.

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Speaker 1: I just didn't doesn't hit the same as I always

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Speaker 1: dreamed it would. You know, you think you're you're making

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Speaker 1: the speech in the mirror, and you your brush is

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Speaker 1: this is a trophy. You know what it made. You

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Speaker 1: think it's going to feel a certain way. It's really nice,

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Speaker 1: but the way isn't everything that I thought it would be.

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Speaker 1: But it did feel I think, sort of like a

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Speaker 1: disc when you weren't nominated for Selma for a lot

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Speaker 1: of other people, I never thought it would be nominated.

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Speaker 1: I'm on record a long time before the nomination saying

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Speaker 1: it wouldn't want to because I don't know anyone in

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Speaker 1: my in my in my branch. It's very much about

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Speaker 1: you know, I have no connection Sider's Club, Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: I don't. I don't know them and they don't know me,

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Speaker 1: and so that's a big part of what that is.

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Speaker 1: It's just that connection with your peers, and I didn't

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Speaker 1: have it at that Hollywood is just like high school.

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Speaker 1: Another little bit as a movie goer, I really resented

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Speaker 1: it even if you didn't, even if it didn't but

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Speaker 1: but no, no, really, if I didn't even know you

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Speaker 1: and the movie Selma and the fact that, um, I

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Speaker 1: thought it was a fantastic movie, and I think it

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Speaker 1: should have been recognized. But I think this was sort

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Speaker 1: of on the cusp of people understanding how undiverse the Oscar.

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Speaker 1: It was. The year before this was the that was

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Speaker 1: the year that said all that conversation helped to spur

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Speaker 1: the Oscar. And I think that that was valid that

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Speaker 1: came from the fans and uh, and it was a

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Speaker 1: valid conversation that needed to happen, not just for people

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Speaker 1: of color, but for women, which has become a big,

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Speaker 1: big conversation now, so they people thinking differently about it.

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Speaker 1: And so I'm happy that that campaign was effective. Do

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Speaker 1: you think it drove real change? It did? I mean

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Speaker 1: it was. It was definitely had fundamental changes within the

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Speaker 1: academy in terms of the ways in which new members

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Speaker 1: are brought in, in terms of the ways in which

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Speaker 1: the conversations that are had around the table. Um. I

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Speaker 1: know because I've been sitting in them and I can

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Speaker 1: see how they've changed since I joined the Academy in

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Speaker 1: two thousand twelve to now radically different. Isn't it amazing

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Speaker 1: how when people are made aware of an issue, how

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Speaker 1: rapidly in some cases, change can happen so fast, I

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Speaker 1: really can What do you think it were the keys

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Speaker 1: to to changing sort of the color if you will,

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Speaker 1: at the Academy and and and the choices they were making.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think it was the uproar and the

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Speaker 1: outrage and the real urgency that people were feeling at

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Speaker 1: the time about this is unacceptable. And it's not as

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Speaker 1: if the conversation hadn't happened before. But there was something

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Speaker 1: of alchemy about, you know, whatever whatever was going on

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Speaker 1: the culture around that time, Black lives matter, Absolutely there

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Speaker 1: was there was at the forefront. There was a conversation,

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Speaker 1: whether it be people of color or women, that this

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Speaker 1: was no longer something that could be uh set aside.

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Speaker 1: But when you're talking about change, you know, we were

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Speaker 1: talking about another conversation we had about um about your

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Speaker 1: your dock and your dock work. How quickly I even

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Speaker 1: look at the trans community, how quickly, I mean, I

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Speaker 1: can think of three years ago, no one even knew

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Speaker 1: how to articulate or what it meant or how or

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Speaker 1: had a respect for it being a uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: an issue that we all had to embrace or a

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Speaker 1: reality that we had to embrace or we should embrace.

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Speaker 1: And now it feels very you could have a conversation

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Speaker 1: with people and they may not know everything that they

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Speaker 1: should know, but there's at least a base of recognition.

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Speaker 1: And that's been I mean, what would you say I'd

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Speaker 1: say to three years and I being concerned of it now,

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Speaker 1: I think you're right, And I think that Caitlyn Jenner

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Speaker 1: did a lot to bring it out into the forefront

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Speaker 1: and then that provided I think a foundation for a

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Speaker 1: conversation to talk about it, and then actually paid the

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Speaker 1: way for a documentary like mine that couldn't have happened,

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Speaker 1: I think, in a weird way without Kasman kind of

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Speaker 1: making more people understand that this was an actual phenomenon

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Speaker 1: and that this was something that was affecting a lot

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Speaker 1: of people that was being kept in the closets. That's

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Speaker 1: a reality for a lot of people. And before we

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Speaker 1: go further down this road, I want to talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit about who you are and where you come from.

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Speaker 1: People you don't know, because you grew up a few

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Speaker 1: miles but also a world away from here, near Compton.

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Speaker 1: And you've talked a lot about this. How how did

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Speaker 1: your childhood and background kind of shape the director that

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Speaker 1: you are today. Had a beautiful childhood, very you know,

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Speaker 1: lovely community, very tight knit, a gorgeous, loving family, UM,

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Speaker 1: but my childhood was in a community that was, you know, uh,

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Speaker 1: kind of besieged by l a p D at that

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Speaker 1: time that really used excessive force and instances when it

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Speaker 1: wasn't necessary, and instances of everyday life, the constant surveillance,

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Speaker 1: the police presence living under that made it so that

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Speaker 1: I'm hyper aware of issues of criminal justice and and

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Speaker 1: and the ways in which law enforcement of really um

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Speaker 1: can kind of rule with an iron hand in some places.

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Speaker 1: And so that that's made its way in my work,

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Speaker 1: from the early narrative films to The Docks Now to

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Speaker 1: the TV show Uhich is something that's a part of

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Speaker 1: my DNA and something I just want to continue to

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Speaker 1: talk about. Did you have any firsthand experiences a growing

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Speaker 1: up where you know an image has stuck with you

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Speaker 1: or an experience has stuck with you. I just read

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Speaker 1: a Brian Stevenson Peace and the New York Review of

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Speaker 1: Books about he was your so great. And I guess

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Speaker 1: that same story about being a young lawyer in Atlanta

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Speaker 1: and a racially mixed neighborhood was also in his book

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Speaker 1: US Mercy. You know, you and I both have a

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Speaker 1: complete crush on Bryan. Really Equal Justice Initiative and my

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Speaker 1: daughter's working for the Southern Poverty Law Center exactly have

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Speaker 1: to connect that. But anyway, I mean that experience he

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Speaker 1: described Brian real quickly. He was coming home. He was

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Speaker 1: listening to a radio show about slide in the family stone.

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Speaker 1: You could just put yourself. He was staying in the

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Speaker 1: cars sometimes you do when you're you're mesmerized by something

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Speaker 1: on the radio. And Atlanta police officer came. Apparently someone

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Speaker 1: had made a call. He was, as I said, in

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Speaker 1: a racially mixed neighborhood, basically almost you know, killed him.

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Speaker 1: And the fear that he had as this Harvard educated

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Speaker 1: lawyer coming back from his firm, and I don't know

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Speaker 1: that the scene, he said, was so profoundly moving to me,

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Speaker 1: and it really made you realize in sharp relief what

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Speaker 1: it was like. What about you, Eva? Was there anything

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Speaker 1: for you that made you this is completely screwed up.

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Speaker 1: Many many little things throughout my my growing up, but

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Speaker 1: there was one in particular around my father recently onto

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Speaker 1: another realm recently departed, and he was in his our

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Speaker 1: house watering the lawn in the backyard of his own

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Speaker 1: home and police came through the side gate and wrestled

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Speaker 1: him to the ground in his own backyard. We had

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Speaker 1: to rush out of the house, UM with no warning,

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Speaker 1: that didn't say anything. Guns drawn on us, my mother

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Speaker 1: and and it was me. My sisters weren't there. I

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Speaker 1: don't know, maybe maybe eleven or twelve, something like bad

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Speaker 1: to see my father such a proud, elegant man on

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Speaker 1: the ground UM with police on top of him, guns

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Speaker 1: pointed at us, not knowing who we were. And basically

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Speaker 1: in the end they said he matched the description of

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Speaker 1: someone who was running through the neighborhood. UM, despite the

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Speaker 1: fact that he was saying, this is my home, I'm

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Speaker 1: the homeowner in his own backyard. Not safe. So those

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Speaker 1: kinds of like I say, excessive police force and a

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Speaker 1: disregard for the humanity of people, uh, something that I

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Speaker 1: grew up with. It was just a part of daily

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Speaker 1: life when you spoke very eloquently about this in the Atlantic.

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Speaker 1: You said you'd see a cop growing up and you

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Speaker 1: didn't think safety like your counterpart who didn't grow up

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Speaker 1: in Compton, you'd think, oh boy, what are they coming for?

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Speaker 1: And who are they coming for? Yeah, exactly. So it's

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Speaker 1: be because of instances like that. So you know, I

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Speaker 1: find it. It makes its way in my work. And

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Speaker 1: at one point I would try to push that away

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Speaker 1: and say, oh, I need to really engage with Hollywood

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Speaker 1: in the ways that our standard Hollywood. But I've just

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Speaker 1: tried to embrace the fact that these are the things

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Speaker 1: I'm interested in, and it's okay to talk about those things,

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Speaker 1: and whether it's a documentary or whether it's like a

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Speaker 1: series like Queen Sugar, you know, to be able to

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Speaker 1: find the spaces where I can say the things I

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Speaker 1: want to say about these issues is okay to do.

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Speaker 1: I read Eva, I learned something new about you every day,

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Speaker 1: and I read that you actually helped cover the O

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Speaker 1: J trial for Did Did I not know that? And

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Speaker 1: you became disillusion with journalism. Yeah. I really really wanted

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Speaker 1: to do what you do, Katie. I really wanted to

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Speaker 1: be a broadcast journalist. I don't know what that was

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Speaker 1: in me for all through high school and uh and

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Speaker 1: going through college. That was what I wanted to do.

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Speaker 1: And so anyway, I got this prestigious internship with the

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Speaker 1: CBS Evening News. This isn't the Dan and rather Connie

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Speaker 1: chung Era the small window when it was both of them, right,

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Speaker 1: almost as prestigious as the later Katie Kurk almost, but

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Speaker 1: it was a slim window when there was the two

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Speaker 1: of them. And that landed at some point around the trial. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: the trial was just starting, I got to sign my

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Speaker 1: juror packet. I was assigned to one specific juror, and

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Speaker 1: I was like, this is it. It's a few short

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Speaker 1: months and I'll be on the air anchoring like this

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Speaker 1: is it's all happening for me and um And basically

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Speaker 1: I was kind of capped out in front of Drew's

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Speaker 1: house and um and you know, kind of invited to

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Speaker 1: kind of look through her I don't know, trash things,

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Speaker 1: mail get a sense of when she came home, who

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Speaker 1: was coming, and I just felt like that's not what

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Speaker 1: I want to It was around the time O J.

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Speaker 1: Tim I think things the traditional news had to become

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Speaker 1: a tad more tabloid e to compete with a new world.

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Speaker 1: I think I felt that, and so things were changing

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Speaker 1: and I didn't I didn't take to it. Well, I

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Speaker 1: wasn't good at it, and so instead I got no trash,

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Speaker 1: no dirt. Yeah, well that was a bad assignment and

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Speaker 1: probably not a fair representation of the kind of work

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Speaker 1: have been able to do. I wouldn't stuck with it,

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Speaker 1: you know. I was just I couldn't see through when

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Speaker 1: you idealize something, you know. Either that That brings me

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Speaker 1: back to though, the o J trial, and I just

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Speaker 1: want to kind of take a left turn for a moment,

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Speaker 1: because I was in the hallway when that verdict was announced,

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Speaker 1: and I was actually standing near o J's kids. And

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure if either of you remember. Of course

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Speaker 1: you remember the external outside reaction, but the black and

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Speaker 1: white reaction was dramatically but I mean, I know you

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Speaker 1: remember that. But in that hallway was a microcosm of

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Speaker 1: sorts of this racial divide in this country. And I'm

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Speaker 1: curious what you thought about the reaction by the African

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Speaker 1: American community, because I have to say I was, I

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Speaker 1: was stunned. Um, you know, I knew Johnny Cochrane very well,

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Speaker 1: and the whole defense team. I actually loved Johnny cochrane.

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Speaker 1: And and yet it was pretty clear that O J

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Speaker 1: had committed this crime, and the jubilation when he was

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Speaker 1: not convicted, when he was acquitted, and the image of

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Speaker 1: this very different reaction from black and white America. Uh

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Speaker 1: is still somewhat hard for me. Less hard for me

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Speaker 1: to understand given everything that I've explored and read and

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Speaker 1: people I've talked to, But help me understand it a

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Speaker 1: little more. I mean, I think it was and that

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Speaker 1: we've had, you know, both document or in narrative pieces

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Speaker 1: that have since explored that whole case. I mean, it

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Speaker 1: was seminal case and American criminal justice, but also speak

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Speaker 1: so clearly to you know, the racial divide. And I think,

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Speaker 1: you know, just being around at that time I was

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Speaker 1: in college, the feeling was, you know, so often the

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Speaker 1: criminal justice system is unjust towards the black man, right,

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Speaker 1: It's so skewed, it's so destructive. I mean, day in

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Speaker 1: and day out, years and years of never winning, of

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Speaker 1: never that the win on such a hype in such

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Speaker 1: a high profile way, even though intellectually you know this

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Speaker 1: is not a good guy, but the optics and the

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Speaker 1: triumph of finally being on the on the winning side,

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Speaker 1: I think was such a powerful um it was such

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Speaker 1: a powerful feeling. Did you feel that way? I don't

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Speaker 1: remember how I felt at the time about it. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if it was following that close. I was

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Speaker 1: in college and having a good time, But I do

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Speaker 1: remember a sense of kind of drama and excitement and

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Speaker 1: energy during the high speed chase. I was in l A.

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Speaker 1: I saw it go by. I mean, at some point

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Speaker 1: it became um, you know when when I was young

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Speaker 1: and then watching it, it became it was entertainment in

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Speaker 1: a way, you know, and not regarding it as you know,

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Speaker 1: a life or death matter, and and people who lost

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Speaker 1: their lives over this, you know, it became spectacle. It

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Speaker 1: was a cultural spectacle. I think that's how people, you know,

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Speaker 1: you know African Americans. Uh, some people were able to

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Speaker 1: divorce themselves from the actual lives lost and say, wow,

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Speaker 1: we won, when really it wasn't quite the wind that

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Speaker 1: that that it was embraced as at the time. So

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Speaker 1: rather than pursue journalism, you decided to move towards the entertainment.

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Speaker 1: So I forget that that you wanted to do for all,

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Speaker 1: they're not going to be going through. But you chose

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Speaker 1: a kind of unconventional path for what you're doing. Now,

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Speaker 1: you started your own marketing and publicity agency, and you

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Speaker 1: did that for many years, even after you had started

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Speaker 1: making films. How did that training and background inform your filmmaking.

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Speaker 1: I loved films, So what that did is just allowed

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Speaker 1: me to immerse myself in film even more. Uh So,

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Speaker 1: I started out after the news stint um, working for

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Speaker 1: studios and publicity firms that specialized in films. How do

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Speaker 1: you as a film go or when you think about

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Speaker 1: how do you know that a film is coming out?

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Speaker 1: You know how whatever whether it's the commercial, it's the

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Speaker 1: red carpet, it's the entertainment to nice piece, it's the

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Speaker 1: review in the newspaper. All the ways that you know

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Speaker 1: that a film is coming out, that's what the public

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Speaker 1: system the marketers to do. So that's what I did,

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Speaker 1: and I loved it because it gave me close proximity

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Speaker 1: to filmmakers. And I love sets and movies and so

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Speaker 1: just working for thirteen years and film that closely gave

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Speaker 1: me a set of tools that really made up for

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Speaker 1: not going to film school because I didn't go to

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Speaker 1: film school, but I was working as a publicist on

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Speaker 1: film sets and traveling with filmmakers, and so when I

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Speaker 1: decided to make my own films, I had some bass

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Speaker 1: uh to go from, even though I hadn't gone to

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Speaker 1: a traditional school. And so all that marketing experience must

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Speaker 1: have come in incredibly handy because so much of filmmaking

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Speaker 1: today obviously is the artistry and what you're doing to

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Speaker 1: to produce this this piece of work, but also to

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Speaker 1: make sure it's seen and heard and that people are

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Speaker 1: aware of it. I mean, I'm sure that's been Have

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Speaker 1: you continue to get where your marketing has in some

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Speaker 1: saying it's really odd. I don't think about marketing when

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Speaker 1: I'm casting. I don't think about it when I'm making

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Speaker 1: the thing, uh. And I think, knowing so much about

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Speaker 1: marketing publicity, I know that you can market and publicize anything.

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Speaker 1: So I just let myself be free with what I'm

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Speaker 1: doing when the time comes to market and publicize. I

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Speaker 1: can have different kinds of conversations with studios and networks

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Speaker 1: than a lot of my filmmaking partners do our colleagues do,

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Speaker 1: because I know what they're talking about in a in

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Speaker 1: a deep way, um, but I really don't think about

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Speaker 1: I don't think when I'm casting, Oh, this person will

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Speaker 1: be good on a poster. Oh this person. I know

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Speaker 1: that I can publicize this piece of paper sitting on

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Speaker 1: the desk. I can do that. I can make you

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Speaker 1: want to read this piece of paper on the that

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Speaker 1: that must be very useful even after the film is right.

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Speaker 1: So it allows me to be free in the creative

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Speaker 1: because I don't feel constrained by having to do certain

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Speaker 1: things in order to get publicity. Didn't you weren't you

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Speaker 1: working in publicity and then you got hired to Actually

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Speaker 1: that's what what movie was? That was that? So in

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Speaker 1: earlier iteration you were actually I read did his homework

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Speaker 1: and he tells me, really, but basically you started for someone.

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Speaker 1: How crazy is that? Wait? How did that happen? And

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Speaker 1: then you became the director? I know it was Lee

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Speaker 1: Daniels was directing and I was not directing yet. I

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Speaker 1: was asked to come on and be the publicist for

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Speaker 1: it because they wanted to have conversations with the King

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Speaker 1: of State and they wanted someone to be in the

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Speaker 1: middle of that, and so liaison between the filmmaker and

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Speaker 1: the family and that's what I was hired to do

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Speaker 1: my path A, the French financers. I still have the

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Speaker 1: contract where I signed to be the publicist, but the

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Speaker 1: film never went forward, so that fell apart art. I

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Speaker 1: did get paid though, and and so years later, maybe

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Speaker 1: five years later. You know life, you know, life is mysterious.

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Speaker 1: Crazy Daniels made the Butt Lord. He said that he

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Speaker 1: had sort of made his civil rights movie, so he

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Speaker 1: didn't produce. Yeah, he left the project and David or

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00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:19,240
Speaker 1: Yellow Woll had been cast by him and remained with

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Speaker 1: the project. David Yellow was the actor who played Dr King.

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Speaker 1: I just happened to work with David Yellow on my

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Speaker 1: little indie film. So David said, you know this film

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Speaker 1: doesn't have a director. You're a director. I want to

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Speaker 1: work with the kid. Can I put you together with

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Speaker 1: the with path A the French financiers? And I was like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I know them already. I'm the publicist for this movie.

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Speaker 1: You want to kiss David on the mouth? I do,

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Speaker 1: and I do often. Yes, yes, yes, he's a great friend.

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Speaker 1: But yeah he basically when I think of like one Simon,

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Speaker 1: a moment of one person who made a critical decision

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Speaker 1: that helped me sit where I am today talking to

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Speaker 1: you at Disney on you know, posting Wrinkling time. It

397
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Speaker 1: was David connecting me to SMA. Well, it had a

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Speaker 1: million dollar budget, and while I think obviously clearly David

399
00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:07,919
Speaker 1: thought you were extraordinarily talented and had great potential, I

400
00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:10,199
Speaker 1: mean that was a pretty big leap, wasn't it. Eva.

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00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:12,680
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, the film before it was two d

402
00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,480
Speaker 1: thousand to twenty million. But you know the bottom line

403
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Speaker 1: is so many of my male counterparts make that leap

404
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Speaker 1: and no one blinks an eye. I mean it's a

405
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Speaker 1: it's a standard leap from INDI two million range, So

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Speaker 1: I mean it's not unprecedented in any way, and it

407
00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:29,520
Speaker 1: was quite easy. So, without relitigating the kind of the

408
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Speaker 1: controversy around how lb J was portrayed in that film,

409
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Speaker 1: because I think that's been discussed at length, I do

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Speaker 1: want to know your view on sort of how much

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Speaker 1: of responsibility filmmakers have when they're depicting historical events to

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Speaker 1: be as truthful as possible, or is there artistic license

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Speaker 1: to tell the story in a way that the diverges

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Speaker 1: a little bit from the facts of history. Where where

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00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:58,760
Speaker 1: is that line drawn? To you? Yeah, I think It

416
00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:01,640
Speaker 1: was interesting because during that time there was a bar

417
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Speaker 1: that I was being held to, a standards that was

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Speaker 1: being held to that you know, counterparts two are not

419
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Speaker 1: African American are not held to you know, when I

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Speaker 1: look at Oliver Stone, when I look at Catherine Bigelow,

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Speaker 1: when I look at many many people who've taken a

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Speaker 1: really Scott, I mean so many people that are dealing

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Speaker 1: with issues around history or or true events, UM that

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Speaker 1: are kind of not ricked over those coals. I think

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of stones movies aren't true to history.

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Speaker 1: But the idea that when you say the word story,

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00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:32,760
Speaker 1: you're inserting um opinion, perspective in a certain point of view.

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00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:34,760
Speaker 1: I mean, we can all tell the story of sitting

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Speaker 1: here in this room together right now, and we will

430
00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:39,199
Speaker 1: all tell it in a different way. I'm seeing and

431
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:41,399
Speaker 1: feeling different things, and you may be sealing our feeling

432
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:43,280
Speaker 1: and that's your version of the story and your version

433
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:45,720
Speaker 1: of the story. Who's to say what's wrong and what's not?

434
00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,560
Speaker 1: And I so I think gross distortions are one thing.

435
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,280
Speaker 1: I think perspective is another. And in Selma, I took

436
00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:54,119
Speaker 1: the perspective of an African American community and the ways

437
00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,720
Speaker 1: in which I'll be lb J was regarded by us

438
00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:59,439
Speaker 1: by a lot of black folk, and uh, and so

439
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:01,720
Speaker 1: that was deemed as wrong and kind of held up

440
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:05,679
Speaker 1: as wrong by the LBG LBJ Library. But again, all

441
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:07,680
Speaker 1: I was saying was it's a matter of perspective, and

442
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:11,159
Speaker 1: can't we invite more perspectives into a historical context. What

443
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:15,480
Speaker 1: did you make of that whole controversy? Yeah, but I've

444
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:22,200
Speaker 1: said that before. We'll have more with Ava Duverney from

445
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,920
Speaker 1: her office here on the Disney lot in beautiful downtown

446
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:34,560
Speaker 1: Burbank right after this, and now back to our conversation

447
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:43,200
Speaker 1: with Avia di Verney. Let's talk about what you're doing now,

448
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 1: because we're here in in Burbank and lovely downtown Burbank,

449
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:51,520
Speaker 1: and you are editing your brains out on on this

450
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 1: new movie or working on called A Wrinkling Time, which

451
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 1: of course many of us read as children. This is

452
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:02,359
Speaker 1: something that you're working on with Oprah Winfrey. She's one

453
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,679
Speaker 1: of the stars. She's one of the stars. And Crispine

454
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 1: and you guys have been shooting in New sing Is

455
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,920
Speaker 1: that right? Yeah, we Shotmindy and Reese and Oprah and

456
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 1: Eye and Storm read the Star of the film Young

457
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:14,800
Speaker 1: Star of the film. I went to New Zealand. I

458
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:16,720
Speaker 1: never know you can have so much fun, you know,

459
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,440
Speaker 1: in another in another, in a place that just it's

460
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 1: very pristine. It's just nature. It's untapped. Nature's where we were.

461
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:26,439
Speaker 1: And I'm from the continent, from the city. I like

462
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:30,359
Speaker 1: city girls, Like what is one to do here? Everything?

463
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 1: You know what I mean? What did you do? I

464
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 1: just to make a movie like I don't swim like

465
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't like dogs and animals like I

466
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 1: really I like to be inside and in the city

467
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 1: like I am not. Like I've never not a hiker, no,

468
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 1: never camped like none of that Zealand loving it boots

469
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,480
Speaker 1: mad up to my ankles in the jungles in the

470
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:55,680
Speaker 1: forest and they have a little bit of everything. I thought.

471
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,320
Speaker 1: And I'm like forty four years old experiencing nature untouched

472
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,000
Speaker 1: for the first time. How were you? There were everybody

473
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:04,879
Speaker 1: about three weeks and I visited over that year before

474
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,320
Speaker 1: four times. And the scouting in the preparation, Oh my gosh,

475
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 1: I want to go to New Zealand. You'll love it.

476
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:15,639
Speaker 1: Will come for the premiere? Okay, yeah, when is it?

477
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:20,000
Speaker 1: Times in March? I definitely want to go when it's warm,

478
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:23,119
Speaker 1: because they're they're summer is our winter. So I was

479
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:25,159
Speaker 1: thinking about maybe trying to do a bite trip to

480
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:27,119
Speaker 1: New Zealand. You love it, you love it, and you

481
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:30,960
Speaker 1: can finish it up with the premiere of I don't

482
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,159
Speaker 1: know problem. But how did you and Oprah become friends

483
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,359
Speaker 1: and colleague? He was around David Yellow. He's like my

484
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 1: fairy godfather is six degrees of David. Obviously initially with

485
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:48,240
Speaker 1: Selma no before that. Initially before that he had given

486
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,359
Speaker 1: her when they were working on The Butlers. He played

487
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 1: her son. And he was in this small film for

488
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:55,920
Speaker 1: me that at one Sundance and he said, hey, check

489
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:57,960
Speaker 1: out this film. I man. I said, I can't believe

490
00:25:57,960 --> 00:25:59,480
Speaker 1: you're asking Hope for one for to watch her indie

491
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 1: film that for two dollars. But he did, and she did.

492
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 1: She watched it, and she wrote me and said that

493
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 1: she and she tweeted me. I thought I framed the tweet.

494
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 1: I was run in the net over went free tweeted

495
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,440
Speaker 1: me and but she tweeted that she liked the film

496
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 1: and encouraged people to see it. And from there, as

497
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 1: it continued on, um we started to all collaborate on

498
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 1: Selma and next Queen Sugar and next Wrinkland time. And

499
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,639
Speaker 1: you told a very funny story about bringing flowers to

500
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 1: Oprah's house. All right, Well, you know, the first time

501
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,120
Speaker 1: I'm invited to her home was up for Mother's Day.

502
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:35,119
Speaker 1: I brought my grandmother, uh and she had a lovely

503
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 1: Mother's Day brunch and I went in and of course

504
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,160
Speaker 1: you're gonna bring flowers to someone comes to their homes.

505
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:43,959
Speaker 1: So I went, Katie. I spent the most I've ever

506
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:45,919
Speaker 1: spent on flowers. I went to the fanciest place in

507
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 1: l A. How much did you spend on It was

508
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 1: like it was like five with the flowers. I mean,

509
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 1: that's like, that's what's right. And so I went and

510
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 1: I bought these flowers because it's Oprah. I really want

511
00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:58,119
Speaker 1: to make a good impression. I wanted and let her

512
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,440
Speaker 1: know how much she means to me have these flowers.

513
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:02,719
Speaker 1: I go in and I give them to her, and

514
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,160
Speaker 1: she's lovely and gracious. She looks at them like she's

515
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 1: never seen flowers. Oh oh, aren't they lovely? Thank you?

516
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,360
Speaker 1: And she takes the flowers and she doesn't hand them off,

517
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:13,880
Speaker 1: she takes them herself. She puts them in the sink,

518
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 1: the whole thing, and out the window of the sink,

519
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:20,159
Speaker 1: I can see past the kitchen window a field of

520
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 1: endless flowers. She's got a garden that looks like the

521
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 1: botanical gardens of whatever the best botanical gardens are with

522
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 1: like gardeners in green green jackets, like tending to the

523
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:43,200
Speaker 1: tulips that was there was no garden. What is it

524
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 1: that makes Oprah that you know what I mean, to

525
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:49,919
Speaker 1: not blink and eye, to still make you feel special

526
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 1: even though you brought flowers when she's got to fill

527
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,359
Speaker 1: the flower it's just the extra thing. She's one of

528
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,640
Speaker 1: those people they you say, you leave her feeling better

529
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 1: about yourself, even in a quick encounter. Its lovely lady,

530
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:05,639
Speaker 1: and she's very normal. Yeah, she's a very normal, lovely woman.

531
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 1: So I know we've got limited time, and I do

532
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 1: want to ask you in the wake of thirteen about

533
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 1: the prospects for criminal justice reform in this country, because

534
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 1: that was supposed to be the one thing that Democrats

535
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 1: and Republicans could get together bipartisan moment exactly didn't happen

536
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 1: last year. The prospects have gone down dramatically under President Trump,

537
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:26,880
Speaker 1: where do you see this issue going? You know, I don't.

538
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:30,719
Speaker 1: I don't have the answers to where it's going, especially

539
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:34,199
Speaker 1: when I think of the political layer and how dire

540
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:36,440
Speaker 1: things are right now. But I know what it's done

541
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 1: in the community. Uh, It's created a unity and a

542
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 1: real strength around the issues, where you know, places that

543
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 1: might once have been fractured around it are really coming

544
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 1: together and holding hands. It's a very intersectional effort in

545
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 1: terms of you know, you can see Black Lives Matter

546
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 1: activists connected with the Native Americans in their plight. You

547
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 1: can see Native Americans, uh, you know, focused on the

548
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 1: Flint water crisis and starting to see the connections between

549
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 1: people who are marginalized across you know, color, religion. I

550
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 1: mean the ways in which all kinds of communities of

551
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 1: color and marginalized people are standing up for Muslim Americans.

552
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 1: So there's something that's happening there that I think I

553
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 1: have to be hopeful is and then and then just

554
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 1: like minded you know, uh, you know, liberal allies who

555
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 1: who aren't of color and who aren't women right saying

556
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 1: we will stand with you and we we are part

557
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 1: of this. I feel that, um, and I think that's

558
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 1: only going to increase as the kind of the opposition increases.

559
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 1: Even the Koch Brothers are behind criminal justice reform, and

560
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 1: they you know here they are have very disparate views

561
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 1: from sort of the traditional progressive point of view, but uh,

562
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 1: they feel strongly that something has got to be done

563
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 1: about mass incarceration and criminal justice reform. But and this woman,

564
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 1: Agnes Gunn have you heard of? Uh? And what she did?

565
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 1: She saw at the New York Film Festival premier. She

566
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 1: immediately called the Four Foundations and said, what can I do?

567
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 1: They said, well, you got money, what do you want

568
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 1: to do? And she decided to sell her her artwork

569
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 1: um and create a fund for criminal justice Art for Justice,

570
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 1: a hundred and sixty million dollars uh that she's put

571
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 1: aside from her art sales specifically earmarked for criminal justice reform.

572
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 1: So people are you know, from that to people that

573
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 1: are planning community actions in their neighborhoods, there's a lot

574
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 1: going on. But clearly President Trump and Attorney General Sessions

575
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 1: in particular have cut against that grain. And they believe

576
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 1: in the old you know, policy of mandatory minimums and

577
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 1: lock them up and and all the rest. Do you

578
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 1: think that they're doing this because substantively they believe in

579
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 1: those policies, or do you think there are political motivations

580
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 1: behind that, Oh, political motivations. I think they are racist policies,

581
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 1: misogynistic policies, policies that are at odds with the good

582
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 1: of humanity. So they're going to race part in your

583
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 1: in your mind, I think that they are. Not that

584
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 1: they're disingenuous in their you know, statements that they're they're

585
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 1: looking to make America great. The question is what America

586
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 1: are they trying to make great. It's a very thin

587
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 1: slice and it leaves behind and leaves out a whole

588
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 1: bunch of people that look like me and so uh so, Yeah,

589
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 1: you know, the easy sound bite is to say they're

590
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 1: playing the race car. But that's not what I'm interested

591
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 1: in talking about. I'm interested in saying, you know, these

592
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 1: folks are saying one thing and behaving another way, and

593
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 1: there are a lot of people who have uh kind

594
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 1: of blinders on as to the real destruction that's happening

595
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 1: in terms of the fabric of what holds us all together.

596
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 1: So do you think, I mean, what what can be dune?

597
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 1: What more? I mean, I think sometimes people see a

598
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 1: movie like thirteenth, which I thought was so extraordinary. My daughter,

599
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 1: I thought it was so important and and they say,

600
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 1: we've got to change this, but they also in some

601
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 1: ways feel powerless. You know. So someone listening to this

602
00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 1: wanted to do something that would contribute to kind of

603
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 1: transformation for the criminal justice system or some kind of change,

604
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 1: what would you tell them to do? Well? I think

605
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 1: you know, the reason why I didn't put any easy

606
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 1: solutions or one d number of website or anything at

607
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 1: the end of thirteen to action or a call to

608
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 1: action is because you know, it is an an individual quest.

609
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 1: You know, who were you at this time and what

610
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 1: did you do? You know, during these circumstances you were

611
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 1: in the world at this time, you saw an injustice.

612
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 1: What did you do? And that answer is going to

613
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 1: be different for everyone. For Agnes Kunnant was one thing.

614
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 1: For Malkia Cyril, who works in Oakland and organizes folks

615
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 1: on the ground there, it's a different thing. And so

616
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 1: the question is a personal to intimate question because I

617
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 1: think it's really kind of surface to donate or or

618
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 1: or sign a petition. Our question with thirteen is look inside,

619
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 1: what of this whole story really really hit your heart

620
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 1: and what can you do where you are? And some

621
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 1: of it, av I think is just asking people to

622
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 1: see the world different or and behave and treat and

623
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 1: treating right. And it could just be it could inform

624
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 1: their day to day interactions and how they analyze a

625
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 1: news story, or how they look at something that's transpiring

626
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 1: in their neighborhobsolutely, or how they teach their children. I

627
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 1: wanted to ask you about Central Park five because you

628
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 1: are now doing a scripted version of that story for Netflix.

629
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 1: Something that I covered um I interviewed the victim of

630
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 1: of of a rape and brutal beating in Central Park

631
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 1: for which these kids were blamed and convicted and by

632
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 1: President Trump, who took out a full page ad, as

633
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 1: I recall at the time, saying that these people who

634
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 1: were accused of the crime and later exonerated, tell me

635
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 1: why how that came about and why you're excited about

636
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 1: this project. I'm on fire for this project. This is

637
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 1: something that I heard about when I was a teenager.

638
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 1: Those guys the same age as I am, and I

639
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 1: was on the East Coast in Los Angeles. They were

640
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 1: in New York and Harlem, uh, and I remember hearing

641
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 1: it and and tuning into it because they were my age.

642
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 1: They look like me, they look like my friend. And

643
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 1: I remember because the news kept talking about this word wilding, wilding,

644
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 1: and I was like, what's wilding? What it was? So

645
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 1: I called my cousin who lives in New York. I

646
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:11,800
Speaker 1: was like, what's wilding? Is that? Is that a slaying

647
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:13,759
Speaker 1: like New York slaying? And they're like, nah, we don't

648
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 1: know what it is, right, So even that term is

649
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 1: so fascinating. Well, it was a made up term by

650
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 1: the media that was that was based on a on

651
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:25,880
Speaker 1: a slang term called wilding out, which is something totally different.

652
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:27,719
Speaker 1: It's like I'm just gonna wild out tonight, have fun.

653
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 1: And so it was just this whole distortion of black

654
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,759
Speaker 1: youth culture at the time that really just you know,

655
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 1: came into my head and just never let go that.

656
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:39,720
Speaker 1: When I saw Sarah Burns great documentary Central Park five,

657
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 1: it just ignited it even more. And when I got

658
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 1: to kind of follow where these guys what they had

659
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:47,239
Speaker 1: gone through, it really, um it just took hold of

660
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,239
Speaker 1: my heart. So I started to correspond with one of them,

661
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 1: Raymond Santana, on Twitter. He had actually reached out to

662
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:53,400
Speaker 1: me on Twitter City like my stuff. I was like,

663
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, you wanted this gentral Park five. We

664
00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 1: started to correspond and I started to ask about their rights,

665
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 1: and um, over two years, we've developed it and we're

666
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 1: going to shoot it next year. Yeah. Twitter seems it'll

667
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 1: be out for the thirtieth anniversary of the crime. Yeah,

668
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:08,839
Speaker 1: and Twitter seems to be playing a central role in

669
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:12,400
Speaker 1: your career because you're set also for Netflix to direct

670
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,880
Speaker 1: this movie starring Rihanna and Loupete and Nyongo that started

671
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 1: as a kind of internet dream on Twitter. We have

672
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:23,239
Speaker 1: confirmed that that's not a done deal yet, but the

673
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:25,319
Speaker 1: ladies are all talking about it and we'll see if

674
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 1: we can. We can, uh if it's something real, but

675
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 1: it's fun. I mean, just the power of the people

676
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 1: on Twitter. Can you just briefly tell us that story

677
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:35,239
Speaker 1: just just a Twitter idea, an idea that actually started

678
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:36,919
Speaker 1: on Tumbler and then Twitter and then kind of made

679
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 1: its way around social media from a couple of different

680
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 1: fans who saw this picture of Lupita and Rihanna at

681
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,840
Speaker 1: a fashion show and started to make up stories about

682
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,320
Speaker 1: the picture and it started to go viral. Some of

683
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:52,399
Speaker 1: these different ones went viral, and eventually studios started well

684
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 1: online people said, oh, wouldn't be great if Avia directed,

685
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,319
Speaker 1: Isa Ray wrote it and these women were in a

686
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:01,799
Speaker 1: movie and uh, and then studio started calling and are

687
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 1: going to do it? We're all we're going to do

688
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 1: but we're all talking about it. That's crazy, isn't that?

689
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 1: How these were these ideas bubble up. You never now

690
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 1: And finally I know you're you're itching to continue your

691
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 1: editing process, and you're so kind to give us even

692
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:17,439
Speaker 1: this much time. But I have to ask you about

693
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 1: the AVA to Barney Barbie, right, how was that? That

694
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 1: was a thing that just even now when I hear

695
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,719
Speaker 1: about it, it just tickles me. Ah, that is a

696
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 1: thing that even you know, when we were started the

697
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,720
Speaker 1: conversation talking about how the Emmys feel and all that stuff,

698
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,840
Speaker 1: that feels like I thought an Emmy would feel that Barbie,

699
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 1: I mean, what a thing? How How can it be?

700
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 1: I used to love barbies. That was my first storytelling.

701
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 1: It's playing with barbies and making up those stories. And

702
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:48,440
Speaker 1: when I saw at the time you probably didn't have

703
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 1: many barbies who look like I did not. I did not,

704
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 1: I did not, And so I mean, what a thing?

705
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 1: And she has her own director's chair and she's got

706
00:36:56,000 --> 00:37:01,360
Speaker 1: like like and it's this that's the thing that really

707
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 1: lifts my heart. And yeah, so loud and well, you've

708
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 1: got your own Barbie, You've gotta all these Emmy nominations

709
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 1: doing incredible work. I mean, do you have a second

710
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:17,359
Speaker 1: to say, take a breath, Ava and say, wow, this

711
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 1: is happening for me. And I feel so so happy.

712
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:24,279
Speaker 1: I do. And it's so cool that I get to

713
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:26,280
Speaker 1: talk to you this week because I was just talking

714
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 1: with Oprah. I said, this is a really special week

715
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,399
Speaker 1: for me because on Monday's Central Park five was announced. Um,

716
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 1: on Tuesday we had this big cover of Ebony magazine,

717
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 1: which is a you know, landmark magazine in the black community,

718
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 1: with the cast of Queen Sugar, a show that came

719
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:40,839
Speaker 1: out of my head in my heart, which we didn't

720
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 1: even have a chance. That was Tuesday. On Wednesday, we

721
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 1: released the first pictures of Wrinkle, the first pictures that

722
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,239
Speaker 1: anyone had seen of it. And then today Thursday, I

723
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 1: sit with you with the Emmy nominations and I can

724
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 1: just say, wow, a week of beauty and happiness. I

725
00:37:57,600 --> 00:37:59,880
Speaker 1: feel so happy. You know, Yes, I'm moving around I'm

726
00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:02,359
Speaker 1: going fast, but I am smelling the roses and they

727
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 1: smell good, smell beautiful. They should because everything is coming

728
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:10,279
Speaker 1: up roses for you, Ava, Thank you so much. This

729
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 1: was so funny. We can't wait to see what you

730
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:18,439
Speaker 1: do next for next and next. Thanks Katie, appreciate, thank you. Bye.

731
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,799
Speaker 1: To the team who helps make this show possible. Thank you,

732
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 1: Thank you very much our producer Gianna Palmer, our production

733
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 1: assistant Nora Richie, Ryan Connor for recording Burbank, Jared O'Connell

734
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:35,400
Speaker 1: for mixing this show, plus of course alis At Bresnik

735
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,759
Speaker 1: on social media, and Emily Beena who holds down the

736
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 1: fort at Katie Kirk Media. Mark Phillips wrote, are fantastic

737
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 1: theme music. Thank you Mark. If you have questions, comments,

738
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 1: are concerns, less you forget, you can email us at

739
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:52,759
Speaker 1: comments at kirrekt podcast dot com or please leave us

740
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 1: a voicemail at four four six three seven. We truly

741
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:01,279
Speaker 1: love hearing from our listeners. We'd love to hear what

742
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:03,960
Speaker 1: you like, what you don't like, and what we can

743
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 1: do more on the show that might please you. And

744
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 1: if you can't get enough of us, I'm at Katie

745
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:13,440
Speaker 1: Couric on Twitter and Instagram, and Katie dot correct on Snapchat.

746
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 1: You can find me on Facebook as well. Brian is

747
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 1: tweeting up a storm meanwhile over at Goldsmith b on

748
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 1: Twitter and Don't Forget. We so appreciate your ratings and

749
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 1: reviews over at Apple Podcasts and subscribe as well. Please

750
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:32,439
Speaker 1: catch you later, dear listeners, Thanks for listening show