1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 2: This is the Bloomberg Daybreak Asia podcast. I'm Doug Krisner. 3 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 2: You can join Brian Curtis and myself for the stories, 4 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 2: making news and moving markets in the APAC region. You 5 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:21,439 Speaker 2: can subscribe to the show anywhere you get your podcast 6 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:24,919 Speaker 2: and always on Bloomberg Radio, the Bloomberg Terminal, and the 7 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:26,080 Speaker 2: Bloomberg Business app. 8 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 3: Well, today marks the twenty seventh year of Hong Kong 9 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 3: being handed over to China. And joining us now in 10 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:36,200 Speaker 3: our studios is Emily Lao, who is a Hong Kong 11 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 3: Democratic Party member, a former chair of the Democratic Party 12 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:43,159 Speaker 3: and a former legislator here in Hong Kong, serving for 13 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 3: some twenty five years or so, joining us in our 14 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 3: studios to talk a little bit more about what is 15 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 3: establishment day. Emily, What does establishment day mean to you 16 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 3: at this point in time? 17 00:00:56,000 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 4: Well, I feel very sad and distressed because many of 18 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 4: my friends and party members are languishing in prison, some 19 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 4: are waiting for a sentence. The trial has gone on 20 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:13,120 Speaker 4: for a long long time. They've been locked up for 21 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 4: over three years, and of course civil society in Hong 22 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 4: Kong has more or less collapsed in a sense that 23 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 4: many media outlets have closed down, journalists are either in 24 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 4: prison or have fled overseas, or are not willing to 25 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:39,120 Speaker 4: do the job anymore. And my party is just surviving. 26 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 4: We were not allowed to take part in the district 27 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 4: council election last year. We could not get permit to 28 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 4: do fundraising by selling refel tickets, and we can't even 29 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 4: have banquets for members and friends. And of course both 30 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 4: my members are in prison. And other parties some have 31 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 4: closed down, and there are no demonstrations, no marchers, no 32 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 4: public assembly anymore. 33 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 1: That was what Hong Kong was once famous for. If 34 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 1: you go and look at. 35 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 4: The Lonely Planet, this guide for tourists, they urge people 36 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 4: to come to Hong Kong, this tiny. 37 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: City, so vibrant, so safe, so free. 38 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:33,239 Speaker 4: Many demonstrations every day, all peaceful and orderly, even musical, 39 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 4: but no more. 40 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 1: Very sad. 41 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:38,920 Speaker 2: So the tipping point seems to have been twenty nineteen 42 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 2: when Beijing proposed the Extradition Bill, right, and then we 43 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:45,640 Speaker 2: got the National Security Law, which obviously now sits above 44 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 2: Hong Kong's basic law. Do you think it can get 45 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 2: much worse than what we're seeing right now? 46 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 1: Of course it's possible. If you look around the world. 47 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 4: I mean, many people are in cuations which are much 48 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 4: much worse off than us, and people are being killed, 49 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 4: their bombs exploding everywhere, people are giving locktop, there's femine, 50 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 4: there's genocide. So I mean the list is very long, 51 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 4: and if we look around us, we are not on 52 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:20,919 Speaker 4: the top of the list. I mean, look at Gaza, 53 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 4: look at Ukraine, look at me and mah Cambodia, Sudan, Afghanistan. 54 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 4: I mean the list is very long. But of course 55 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 4: we don't want things to deteriorate. And I'm still here 56 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 4: sitting here. People kept asking me why I haven't been arrested. Well, 57 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 4: I just think that we want to tell President Si Jinping, 58 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 4: especially on this very important day, that the situation has 59 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 4: calmed down. I do not support my party did not 60 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 4: support what happened in two or one nine or the 61 00:03:55,760 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 4: violence and all that on whatever side. But the situation 62 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 4: has come down. We've got the National Security Law, We've 63 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 4: got a basic law are to go twenty three legislation. 64 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 4: So the authorities here but especially those in Beijing must 65 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 4: feel confident that you know, the situation is under control, 66 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:21,840 Speaker 4: and they can start giving the people, allowing the people 67 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:25,839 Speaker 4: to enjoy more freedoms, the freedoms that were enshrined in 68 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 4: the Sign of British Joint Declaration and the Basic Law, 69 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 4: and the freedoms that we've enjoyed for many years after 70 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 4: nineteen seven. 71 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 3: Certainly you mentioned the loss of civil society and there's 72 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:39,839 Speaker 3: no political opposition. You mentioned that a couple of other considerations. 73 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 3: Freedom of the press, for sure, that has diminished, and 74 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:46,039 Speaker 3: also the rule of law and some of the comments 75 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:48,480 Speaker 3: made by Lord Sumption and some of the other judges 76 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 3: that resign from the Court of Final Appeal are troubling. 77 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:55,919 Speaker 3: Do you think that that companies' businesses will start to 78 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:58,720 Speaker 3: rethink plans to be here in Hong Kong because of that. 79 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 4: Well, I'm not an expert on what these companies think, 80 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 4: but I've spoken to people and they would like to 81 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:10,840 Speaker 4: have the rule of law. And when the Financial Secretary 82 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:15,040 Speaker 4: Poor Chan, when he traveled to America, to Europe and 83 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 4: other places to sell Hong Kong to try to attract 84 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 4: investors to come to Hong Kong, the first thing he 85 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:26,480 Speaker 4: talked about was the rule of law. He knows that 86 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 4: that's very much on the mind of these money people. 87 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 4: And then the first thing he said is, oh, look 88 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 4: at us. We are the only place on earth which 89 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 4: has foreign judges sitting on our Court of Final Appeal, 90 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:43,039 Speaker 4: and the Court of Final Appeal can find the government wrong. 91 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 4: We have been defeated in the court, so you see 92 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 4: they are so independent. Well, I hope that it's true, 93 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 4: and I hope that my people, my friends languishing in 94 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 4: prison and their relatives and friends will agree. And of 95 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 4: course I hope the Hong Kong people and the judges 96 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:05,280 Speaker 4: local and foreign, will also agree with mister Chan. And 97 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 4: if that's the case, then of course we will see 98 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 4: more foreign business people or people, tourists, students, all of 99 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 4: them coming to Hong Kong. But now I don't think 100 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:16,919 Speaker 4: we are seeing that many. 101 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 2: Obviously, you are still there, Emily. You mentioned a moment 102 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:22,599 Speaker 2: ago that many people have asked you why there has 103 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 2: been some brain drained. There have been a number of 104 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 2: people who have left. I mean, can you describe what 105 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 2: that's looked like from your perspective. 106 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 4: Well, it's very very sad, and I saw some report 107 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 4: recently about the number of Hong Kong people in the UK. 108 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 4: This is mainly because of their Prime Minister Boris Johnson's 109 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 4: and the Parliament's decision to have this be an old 110 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 4: scheme which allow people who hold the British National Overseas 111 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:55,279 Speaker 4: Passport or that identity to go to the UK to 112 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:58,279 Speaker 4: live for five years and then they can on the 113 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 4: sixth year they can begin to app life for British citizenship. 114 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 4: So that makes it much easier for people to go there, 115 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 4: and the reports that we're talking about two hundred thousand 116 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 4: or more people who have gone there, but many have 117 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 4: also gone to Canada and even Australia because they have 118 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 4: made the immigration thing much easier for Hong Kong young 119 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 4: people and many of the people who. 120 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: Have left educated people. 121 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 4: They have money, and they are the backbone of the economy. 122 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 4: They are the middle class people, and they are professionals, 123 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 4: very well educated. So just imagine if a society suddenly 124 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 4: loses so many of these people. That's why the government 125 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 4: has schemes to attract talents from overseas and mainland China, but. 126 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 1: It will take a very long time. 127 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 4: To attract the right people the right education, and so 128 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 4: it's not easy at all. 129 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 3: Emily, I'm curious about the few mature in your thoughts 130 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 3: of it and whether or not Hong Kong can bounce back. 131 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 3: You know, we always said, don't ever bet against Hong 132 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 3: Kong because it showed over fifty sixty seventy years the 133 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 3: ability to reinvent itself. Is that sort of spirit still 134 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 3: there in your mind? Or is Hong Kong being hauled out? No? 135 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 4: I don't think the game is over, although some people 136 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 4: do think so and they have left, and even those 137 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 4: who are here they feel very, very distressed and they 138 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:34,200 Speaker 4: are quite unhappy with the situation. Well, I think the 139 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:38,079 Speaker 4: most important thing apart from Hong Kong people having the stamina, 140 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 4: having the determination to make it work. But all along, 141 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 4: all these years, the major factor that would make Hong 142 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 4: Kong one country, to a system and all these things 143 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 4: prosper is on the part of Beijing. It's self censorship 144 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 4: by the central government, and they exercise quite a bit 145 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:04,560 Speaker 4: since from nineteen ninety seven, for quite a number of years, 146 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 4: they left Hong Kong alone. Well, maybe they trusted the 147 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 4: government then and they really did so. I hope Ci 148 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 4: Jinping Presidentcy Jimping now realized that things have settled down. 149 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 4: I know their top concern is national security, and I 150 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 4: hope they will come to realize that Hong Kong no 151 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:29,439 Speaker 4: longer poses a threat to national security, and I hope 152 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 4: we will be. 153 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 1: Given a chance. 154 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:33,320 Speaker 2: I think at the same time, Beijing is very concerned 155 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 2: about economic growth, and Brian was making the point earlier 156 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 2: in the program about perhaps the recognition that Hong Kong 157 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 2: is very much a part still of China's growth story. 158 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:47,719 Speaker 2: Do you think Beijing is aware of that at all? 159 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 4: Well, I would like to think so, but I've met people, 160 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 4: you know, who kept telling me that, well, that's no 161 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 4: longer or hasn't maybe has never been Beijing's top concern. 162 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 4: Their top concern now is national security. So if they 163 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 4: feel that it's under threat, anything else can be sacrificed. 164 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 4: And I think it would be a big shame for 165 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 4: Beijing to say, Okay, we'll let Hong Kong go, because 166 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:22,200 Speaker 4: Hong Kong has prospered for so long, and Hong Kong has, 167 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 4: you know, contributed to the country's development, and Hong Kong 168 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 4: people and many Chinese people, mainland Chinese, rich educated people, 169 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 4: they like to come here with their children, they like 170 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 4: to go to our schools. Of course, some use this 171 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:41,440 Speaker 4: as a stepping stone to go overseas, but they like 172 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 4: it here. So I hope the people in Beijing and 173 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:49,200 Speaker 4: other people in the country would recognize that it would 174 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,440 Speaker 4: be a great pity to just kill off Hong Kong. 175 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 3: On the practical side, aside from allowing more freedoms, what 176 00:10:57,920 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 3: would you like to see, what sort of policy would 177 00:10:59,880 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 3: you like to see from Beijing to help stimulate Hong Kong. 178 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 1: Well, to get its mojo back. 179 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:09,199 Speaker 4: Well, apart from all these things about stimulating the economy, 180 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:11,960 Speaker 4: which some people think, you know they're not working that 181 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 4: well because you see many empty restaurants and vacant shops 182 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 4: because many people have gone north to shop. 183 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 1: To eat and all that. 184 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 4: But what we need as a civilized society is prurarity diversity. 185 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 4: Not that I'm saying, oh, they should allow the Democratic 186 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:33,320 Speaker 4: Party to take part in elections, of course they should, 187 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:36,679 Speaker 4: but they should allow others to take part in elections, 188 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:40,679 Speaker 4: to show tolerance that Hong Kong is a place that 189 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 4: people with different views can coexist peacefully, and that's what 190 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 4: we did in the past. It's not as if I'm 191 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 4: asking for something from the moon. So this is important 192 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:55,680 Speaker 4: so that business people, professional people, they understand that this 193 00:11:55,840 --> 00:12:00,960 Speaker 4: is a place that tolerate difference of opinion be respected, 194 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,560 Speaker 4: you will not be arrested, and you will not be 195 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:04,560 Speaker 4: thrown into prison. 196 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 3: So important. Emily, thanks so much for coming in. We 197 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 3: enjoyed the chat. Emily Lao, who was a former chairperson 198 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 3: of the Democratic Party, and I would have to say 199 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 3: probably one of the three or four most influential legislators 200 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 3: over the past twenty five thirty years, certainly that I've 201 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 3: been here. 202 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 2: This has been the Bloomberg Daybreak Asia podcast, bringing you 203 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 2: the stories making news and moving markets in the Asia Pacific. 204 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 2: Visit the Bloomberg Podcast channel on YouTube to get more 205 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 2: episodes of this and other shows from Bloomberg. Subscribe to 206 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 2: the podcast on Apple, Spotify, or anywhere else you listen, 207 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,319 Speaker 2: and always on Bloomberg Radio, the Bloomberg Terminal, and the 208 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 2: Bloomberg Business app.