Speaker 1: Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast.
Speaker 1: Today's episode is brought to you by our friends over
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Speaker 1: way to get your club logo on it. Anyways, without
Speaker 1: further ado, today's guest is Jaeger Kovich. So Jaeger is
Speaker 1: a golf course architect. He has worked for years as
Speaker 1: an associate for Gil Hans. He got his start in
Speaker 1: architecture at being an intern for Tom Doak. So Yaeger
Speaker 1: is one of the most well traveled and thoughtful young
Speaker 1: architects in the game. I really enjoy spend time with him.
Speaker 1: We walked around Wing and Fenway and then recorded this
Speaker 1: podcast and it's a two parter. Came back and recorded
Speaker 1: another session after we this. This sounds like it's gonna
Speaker 1: be the end of it at the end of this podcast,
Speaker 1: but it's not. He stays around and uh, we do
Speaker 1: another hour. So this is a two part podcast. Part
Speaker 1: two will be out early next week and you can
Speaker 1: follow Jaeger on Instagram at proper Golf. That's also his website,
Speaker 1: so check him out there. So here is Jaeger Kovich
Speaker 1: I miss the green for example, I'm already upset when
Speaker 1: I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 1: And when I find my ball.
Speaker 2: In a frid Egg Friday egg, the dreaded Frida egg
Speaker 2: Friday Frida egg egg Frida egg bride egg.
Speaker 1: Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the course.
Speaker 1: Let me ask you a question, and thinking about this
Speaker 1: all day.
Speaker 3: That's my favorite fruit.
Speaker 1: No, no, no, much more, much more personal question.
Speaker 2: Oh really more than that. We were talking about bananas
Speaker 2: the last time. That's pretty personal.
Speaker 1: If did when you bought your car your club man,
Speaker 1: did you think that by buying a clubman that you'd
Speaker 1: become more clubs man? No? Uh.
Speaker 2: In fact, all I've got is uh ship about the
Speaker 2: car I drive on repeat from uh you name it,
Speaker 2: Jim Wagner, Crazy, Dave Cardos, the super at Burning Tree.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, they just never it's it's not you know,
Speaker 2: obviously you drive a mini. Now I've downgraded from the
Speaker 2: SUV and it is just a never ending ship storm
Speaker 2: from all these guys that like their their big trucks
Speaker 2: and whatnot. But live in the city, man, I've spent
Speaker 2: enough time trying to look for parking spaces and yeah,
Speaker 2: that's what a waste of days, weeks, months of my
Speaker 2: life doing that.
Speaker 3: So clubman's great. Man fit the clubs in the back.
Speaker 1: It's perfect. You know, Well, why do you need to
Speaker 1: pick up?
Speaker 2: That's what we have sit vehicles for. I don't need
Speaker 2: to drive my own car out on the site and
Speaker 2: ruin it on a you know.
Speaker 3: That's what you know.
Speaker 2: Walking's perfect. Park kind of anywhere, you know, and up
Speaker 2: at the clubhouse and then just walk out to the machine.
Speaker 2: There's all sorts of great things you can think.
Speaker 1: Of, little details that you notice walking around out there.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: That's see, I need to I don't need to drive
Speaker 2: like within feet of where I'll be.
Speaker 3: Working for the day. That's yeah. So we have site vehicles,
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 2: That's why.
Speaker 4: So you'd say that pickup trucks are overrated in your industry,
Speaker 4: I mean, they have their purpose, but I wouldn't want
Speaker 4: one for myself. It's great that the clubs own them
Speaker 4: that like contract have them. I mean, there's like a
Speaker 4: U two.
Speaker 3: I don't own any equipment, man, I don't need that.
Speaker 3: It's got to show up.
Speaker 1: So I didn't have anything to do with the name.
Speaker 3: No, absolutely not, all right zero.
Speaker 1: I wonder if it was like the subleminal sales point.
Speaker 1: You know, I drive a club man, because I'm right
Speaker 1: clubs man.
Speaker 3: It's it's occurred to me.
Speaker 2: I did actually bring my golf clubs with me to
Speaker 2: the dealership to make sure that the clubs would fit
Speaker 2: properly in the back of the car.
Speaker 1: But uh.
Speaker 2: No, that was that was not the deal. It's just
Speaker 2: fun to drive, man. It's just like a little BMW
Speaker 2: for a fraction of the price.
Speaker 3: It's perfect.
Speaker 1: So you grew up in New York City.
Speaker 2: Yep, the city, Yeah, upper Upper east Side.
Speaker 3: I grew up on a seventh and second. Yeah.
Speaker 1: When how'd you get into golf? How'd I?
Speaker 3: Well, we had the Uh.
Speaker 2: You could get the shuttle to the Randalls Island driving
Speaker 2: Range on eighty sixth and third, So when I was
Speaker 2: a kid in the summers, you could get you know.
Speaker 2: All we to do was where we crossed two streets,
Speaker 2: me and my best friend who lived across the street
Speaker 2: from me, and we could go over there, get on
Speaker 2: the bus and go whack balls with my dad's old clubs.
Speaker 2: And so that's kind of really how we started, you know,
Speaker 2: swinging at least, right and then when you grow up
Speaker 2: in that city, you have to drive somewhere to play golf.
Speaker 2: There's nothing, so I think for whatever reason, you know,
Speaker 2: between the two of us and then whoever could convince
Speaker 2: their parents that drive us out to wherever we're going
Speaker 2: to play for the day, I just sort of became
Speaker 2: the guy picking where we were going to go, and
Speaker 2: you know, you kind of I just started weighing things.
Speaker 2: I think how far you had to go, price, what
Speaker 2: we liked about the course that we didn't like, Not
Speaker 2: that we knew much, but you just kind of developed
Speaker 2: preferences and try to find different different stuff.
Speaker 1: What was your favorite place to play as a cat?
Speaker 2: Our favorite public options around here, so Split Rock for sure,
Speaker 2: which is in the Bronx. Then you know, we'd go
Speaker 2: up to like there was like a newer modern course
Speaker 2: I guess up in like Austining. We'd go through that
Speaker 2: was kind of further away, you know, probably wherever they'd
Speaker 2: let like to kind of high school aged kids probably
Speaker 2: drive a golf cart.
Speaker 3: At that point.
Speaker 2: But so We really just kind of went everywhere. We'd
Speaker 2: go play, you know, we went out to beth Page
Speaker 2: pretty early. We'd go all over Rockland County, Westchester. You know,
Speaker 2: my parents me like a couple, like little guide but
Speaker 2: you know, with like a list of different courses, and
Speaker 2: we just start picking things off as I'd read reviews
Speaker 2: or whatever and just go to different things.
Speaker 3: But eventually someone.
Speaker 2: Gave me practice round tickets to the four open at
Speaker 2: Hinnacock and I was walking around out there on a Wednesday.
Speaker 2: I didn't I knew it was supposed to be this
Speaker 2: incredible place, and I'd really just started playing golf like
Speaker 2: maybe two years before that, just walking around walking around,
Speaker 2: didn't even know where it was, but random we stopped
Speaker 2: on the seventh tee there and I just just happened
Speaker 2: to sit there for like an hour and just watch
Speaker 2: group after group after group come through and no one
Speaker 2: could hold a green even in the practice rounds. I
Speaker 2: remember there was this one group with there was Darren
Speaker 2: Clark VJ saying Adam Scott and there was like one
Speaker 2: other guy, so like real like top of the game
Speaker 2: at that point, and they were just dropping buckets and
Speaker 2: no one could.
Speaker 3: Hit in the hole the thing, and I was like,
Speaker 3: what the hell was going on?
Speaker 2: We went home that night and I'm like dad and
Speaker 2: turned on the golf something crazy is going on out there,
Speaker 2: and like they're talking about like I don't know, obviously
Speaker 2: it turned into this like insane thing. So that was
Speaker 2: like a real big sort of eye opener into like, man,
Speaker 2: these golf course things are pretty cool, right.
Speaker 1: That was like here first this is that was like
Speaker 1: a real.
Speaker 3: Big aha moment.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then you know, after that, well, I ended
Speaker 2: up talking my way into being like a free intern
Speaker 2: for Muncheon Cornish golf design when I was in college.
Speaker 3: Still we had this like that was pretty funny, scout
Speaker 3: what not?
Speaker 2: No, that was you know, tough security here at the
Speaker 2: Renaissance Hotel here, no free ad no.
Speaker 3: Sorry, pardon uh what in the world?
Speaker 1: So you you talked your way.
Speaker 2: So we had this this internship internship abroad program. I
Speaker 2: went to Hobart. I'd really become fascinated with the golf
Speaker 2: course stuff pretty quick, and I did some like big
Speaker 2: like year long projects in high school trying to design
Speaker 2: a golf course on our campus, and then went to
Speaker 2: college and studied architecture there and eventually so.
Speaker 1: It was the O two open. What what years you grad? Four? Open?
Speaker 1: What do years you graduate? High school? Five? Okay?
Speaker 3: So college nine?
Speaker 1: So so that's when when did when were you Did
Speaker 1: you really start to get into design? Was that before that?
Speaker 1: Oh four open? No?
Speaker 2: No, No, it was really uh in in college, you know.
Speaker 2: The So I got that internship. I got to spend
Speaker 2: the year or spring semester and Cambridge and worked at
Speaker 2: uh in Mark's office off up above the flower Shop
Speaker 2: in Uxbridge. And I knew from the first day I
Speaker 2: walked in there that this is what I wanted to do.
Speaker 2: So I went back to school the following fall and
Speaker 2: just did everything I could, just sort of gear everything
Speaker 2: towards golf course design. And between the internship and going
Speaker 2: back to school, I spent the summer caddying at Quaker Ridge,
Speaker 2: and I just totally fell in love with killing hast
Speaker 2: and I would spend my whole summer in the caddy
Speaker 2: yard reading every architecture book I could think of or
Speaker 2: find at that time, and then go out and walk around,
Speaker 2: you know, help missus Moskowitz get around, uh till he's
Speaker 2: Tilly's treasure. And so it was, you know, a pretty
Speaker 2: incredible learning experience.
Speaker 1: There were you the guy in the caddy shack that
Speaker 1: everybody wanted to hang out with when you were read
Speaker 1: in those architecture books.
Speaker 3: Probably not.
Speaker 1: In terms of like going so you realize you want
Speaker 1: to do this and you're at Hope Art, I how
Speaker 1: did you go about pursuing it?
Speaker 3: So when I was patting, so we read uh.
Speaker 2: I read Tom's Minimalist Manifesto, right, someone had told me
Speaker 2: about that when I was there, so read it instantly,
Speaker 2: ordered the Anatomy of a Golf Course the next day,
Speaker 2: finished that within you know, another day or two, and
Speaker 2: I found out Tom had this internship program, right, so
Speaker 2: I applied for that and I made it through to
Speaker 2: the finals and I went out to band Into to interview,
Speaker 2: and so it was pretty cool. We got to spend
Speaker 2: the day walking around on McDonald under construction, and.
Speaker 3: You know, it was pretty crazy.
Speaker 2: There was like this random happenstance where Bill Corr and
Speaker 2: Tom were on site up there at the same time,
Speaker 2: and so we kind of all had dinner together a
Speaker 2: couple of other perspective interns, I guess, and Bill and Tom,
Speaker 2: and I guess.
Speaker 1: George Botto was there. Eric Ivers, so there. It was.
Speaker 3: It was pretty cool.
Speaker 2: But Tom and Bill were both talking about these projects
Speaker 2: they had in China or upcoming at that point, and
Speaker 2: so I kind of always had that in the back
Speaker 2: of my mind. When that first internship with Tom ended up.
Speaker 2: Fu you know, I graduated No. Nine, like we just said,
Speaker 2: so the world ended right there were no jobs in
Speaker 2: golf I could write. I wrote hundreds of emails after
Speaker 2: I graduated looking for jobs. You know, Jack Nick the
Speaker 2: Nick was coming wrote back, like, listen, we just fired
Speaker 2: like twenty. People were not looking to take on anybody
Speaker 2: right now. So I kept going with some caddying what
Speaker 2: I ended up and kept in touch with Tom. What
Speaker 2: I ended up doing was I went to this like
Speaker 2: heavy equipment operating school in like the middle of nowhere,
Speaker 2: Virginia because I could write to these people like so
Speaker 2: I finally, you know, had this nice interaction with the
Speaker 2: local golf contractor.
Speaker 1: So everybody's saying, no, yeah, there's no jobs right now,
Speaker 1: you're figuring out.
Speaker 2: I'm going back to Caddy and keep you know, studying
Speaker 2: the great golf courses in the mad area and keep
Speaker 2: writing letters like I would. Wrote hundreds of letters to
Speaker 2: people all all across the world, Like I just to
Speaker 2: do anything, whether it was maintenance, whether it was construction,
Speaker 2: whether it's work for an art like, anything I could
Speaker 2: do that I thought could help.
Speaker 1: Well.
Speaker 2: So I was talking to this contractor that I ended
Speaker 2: up working for, but so I want to meet him.
Speaker 2: He's like, well, great kid, you know, I'm so glad
Speaker 2: you can tell me all this stuff about golf courses.
Speaker 2: But what can you do that can maybe can you
Speaker 2: get on the tractor and do anything? I was like,
Speaker 2: uh no, you know, I grew up on eighty seven
Speaker 2: second right, Well I know about that. So I went
Speaker 2: to this heavy equipment operating school for like six weeks.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: They taught me how to run at least basically the
Speaker 2: you know, how to run a back hoo and a
Speaker 2: skid steer and a dozer and things like that. And
Speaker 2: I actually, in the meantime took a I was going
Speaker 2: to take a job at the Southern Hills maintenance department.
Speaker 2: I actually ended up I got rid of I dropped
Speaker 2: off a deposit, I let it go, bailed on that,
Speaker 2: and Tony hired me within like three days of finishing that.
Speaker 2: So I went to work for Pablock Brothers for like
Speaker 2: two years and then I always so the.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about this heavy machinery school a little bit. Okay,
Speaker 1: what did you go to? Like class was, yeah, we
Speaker 1: had class in the morning. And what with class like
Speaker 1: getting on these so they.
Speaker 2: Teach you a little bit about like you know, some
Speaker 2: of the safety stuff and things like that. And then
Speaker 2: but also it's like you know, how to check grades
Speaker 2: on site. So it's like a lot of guys with
Speaker 2: you know, looking to get just any kind of beer
Speaker 2: bones job they could with like you know, not golf contractors,
Speaker 2: like a road yeah, or like some sort of union
Speaker 2: or anything. But so these guys are like, you know,
Speaker 2: they're trying to learn how to do fractions and then
Speaker 2: do like tens of you know, measure slopes and like
Speaker 2: angles and things like that. And I'm sort of snoozing through, right,
Speaker 2: and you know, you have to take the test and
Speaker 2: like at the end of the day, and then the
Speaker 2: afternoon was on like on the equipment, you know, actually
Speaker 2: getting time to like you know, learn how to pull
Speaker 2: the trigger, you know, pull all the weavers and make
Speaker 2: the thing run and you have to be able to
Speaker 2: dig this deep and this far and keep it clean enough.
Speaker 2: And then they gave you, like, you know, I guess
Speaker 2: some sort of license.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 2: I never really did. You don't need them to do
Speaker 2: any of this. It's just crazy.
Speaker 1: But do you think do you ever look back on
Speaker 1: that and think that that experience did anything differently than
Speaker 1: ahead you got into like a job right out of
Speaker 1: right out of school, because you went and it's a
Speaker 1: little bit more different path than most.
Speaker 3: That was different.
Speaker 1: But then I actually I think, well it was.
Speaker 3: There's a pattern. I think.
Speaker 2: I suppose the word is like grits. I suppose I'm
Speaker 2: a very driven, like single minded person because what I
Speaker 2: did next after working for Tony or during while working
Speaker 2: for Tony, knowing that Tom and Bill, who I had
Speaker 2: both interviewed for jobs within the past, they had these
Speaker 2: jobs in China. So while I was doing the construction
Speaker 2: for Tony Monday through Friday, I'd go still Caddy Saturday
Speaker 2: Sunday at Quaker. But I taught myself Mandarin on Rosetta
Speaker 2: Stone enough and kept telling Tom that I was doing that.
Speaker 2: That like, by the time his project came around, he
Speaker 2: had to hire me.
Speaker 1: So so that's I mean, you knew both these guys
Speaker 1: had this project. Yeah, and you and so.
Speaker 2: I learned how to run all the equipment, got experience
Speaker 2: during the construction, and then I was like, what I
Speaker 2: can at least, you know, say a few you know,
Speaker 2: enough to at least prove that I was a lunatic
Speaker 2: enough that you know, it might be worth sending this
Speaker 2: kid to the other side of the world to it.
Speaker 3: We just give it a shot, right, So it worked.
Speaker 1: So it works.
Speaker 2: So Tom hires you. Yeah, like two years later, and
Speaker 2: it was it was cool. Actually the first thing we
Speaker 2: did was the we worked on his Olympic proposal, which
Speaker 2: was pretty cool. Spent some time up in his office,
Speaker 2: and then ended up at Disweal River in the meantime
Speaker 2: for like five months on that crew, and then spent
Speaker 2: probably almost to the better part of two years in
Speaker 2: China with Eric.
Speaker 1: And what was that golf course called in.
Speaker 3: China, Yeah, Simipo Island.
Speaker 1: It didn't ever open, right, Nope, So no, it.
Speaker 3: Was completed, and then.
Speaker 2: It was like, I guess they had that like presidential
Speaker 2: change during the project. So Sizek Pink came in a
Speaker 2: power of kind of halfway through it, and the politics
Speaker 2: really flipped in terms of being pro golf and new
Speaker 2: things like that. So no, it was really never permitted
Speaker 2: to open, and we knew like not long after we
Speaker 2: completed it. They planted the trees in the greens, and
Speaker 2: they grasped all the bunkers all the way down and
Speaker 2: put some shrubs and things like that and the fairways
Speaker 2: and tried to like disguise it a little bit, but
Speaker 2: the last time I checked on Google Earth, it looked
Speaker 2: like it just got dozed over.
Speaker 1: To be honest, Well, now that you've been a part
Speaker 1: of a ton of projects, m hm, what how I mean,
Speaker 1: what were like the emotions like when that happened? What
Speaker 1: I mean, it was weird because where you kind of
Speaker 1: pour your soul into something especially well.
Speaker 2: I guess it was like probably a good lesson that
Speaker 2: weren't early on, but at the same rate, it's not ours,
Speaker 2: and you know, pretty quickly, right when you're in China, right,
Speaker 2: how many times are you going to come back to
Speaker 2: China to the play?
Speaker 3: You know, we were kind of.
Speaker 2: Just like, well, maybe we'll come back for one victory
Speaker 2: lap when it's over, play it and uh, you know,
Speaker 2: feel good about all the struggles we went through to
Speaker 2: get it done, and you know, if we see it
Speaker 2: again after that, it would probably be something else that
Speaker 2: pulled us back, you know, happened to be there for
Speaker 2: a reason. It's not like make a singular trip all
Speaker 2: the way there for that, just because of the difficulty
Speaker 2: and stuff.
Speaker 1: But the course didn't open either. Oh, it's very much open.
Speaker 1: It's still okay. They had one in Mexico that didn't open, right,
Speaker 1: I can't.
Speaker 2: Tom did that Baha, I forgot which one it is.
Speaker 3: That's funny. Actually builds the guy that grew in Saanching
Speaker 3: Bay Bill's course and Hainan we became.
Speaker 2: Very very friendly with, and he'd actually done it growing
Speaker 2: in Mexico and he probably played that Baya Dreams course
Speaker 2: more than anybody in the world.
Speaker 3: So he's got to play a couple.
Speaker 2: Of those that like no one else has ever ever
Speaker 2: even stepped foot on.
Speaker 3: Chris christ is a good guy. He helped us get
Speaker 3: through a lot of those.
Speaker 2: Difficulties, uh, culturally that go on with working in China
Speaker 2: versus here.
Speaker 3: But no, it's not it's not your golf course. It
Speaker 3: never is. It's never ours. We don't own it.
Speaker 2: We come and you know, I like to kind of joke,
Speaker 2: you know, we make love to their dirt and you know,
Speaker 2: we kind of give it our best, but it's it's
Speaker 2: not ours. So you learn that it's you know, you
Speaker 2: don't always get back to them nearly as much as
Speaker 2: you like, right even when they're in your backyard. Uh,
Speaker 2: you know, I've been lucky to do some projects around
Speaker 2: here and you just don't get back as much as
Speaker 2: you like. And then the chance is that it's going
Speaker 2: to be exactly as you envisioned it. You know, even
Speaker 2: that's you know, the percentages drop again. So it just
Speaker 2: makes it really awesome when you do get to go
Speaker 2: and it's like they took it to a whole other
Speaker 2: level and you never like it. Just that's really cool.
Speaker 2: But you don't stress like you know, it's it's not ours.
Speaker 2: It's not it's not ours. We we do the best
Speaker 2: weekend and meg love the dirt and you know, put
Speaker 2: everything we've gotten to it. But you got to have
Speaker 2: the process and not be about the final product. It's
Speaker 2: it's all about getting there and making sure we do everything.
Speaker 3: Along the way that it's going to have the best chance.
Speaker 1: You work as a contract, you do your own work.
Speaker 1: You've got you know, you've got a handful of clients.
Speaker 1: You also do work with Gil and Tom as a contractor.
Speaker 3: Yeah, most mostly Gil.
Speaker 2: It's really been pretty much Gill only for like the
Speaker 2: last five years or so. And then when I worked
Speaker 2: for Tom before that, it was you know, actually, you know,
Speaker 2: it was mostly as his employee, which is a really
Speaker 2: unique thing. I think that was part of because of
Speaker 2: the China stuff and the visas. But I did a
Speaker 2: little bit independent after that, but it's mostly uh mostly
Speaker 2: I founded the my little company really after I got
Speaker 2: back from from China.
Speaker 3: But yeah, it's been.
Speaker 2: Nice transition to sort of five years with Gil and
Speaker 2: now a little bit on my own since then.
Speaker 1: What what's it like not knowing where you're going next? Like,
Speaker 1: you know, you're on one job and.
Speaker 2: You were complaining about the anxiety of the weather this morning.
Speaker 2: I'm like, it's like, I wish my anxiety was geared
Speaker 2: towards the weather. That would be quite a delight.
Speaker 1: I mean that's a small anxiety. I got a lot
Speaker 1: more big anxiety, I think, I hope. So there are
Speaker 1: many many big anxiety things that No.
Speaker 3: It's tough, it is, it is.
Speaker 2: It is really difficult, and you know it's sort of.
Speaker 3: You know, the site work.
Speaker 2: Shaping, you know, when you're just sort of being you know,
Speaker 2: once you're there and going, that's sort of almost the
Speaker 2: easy part. It's so hard to sort of continuously set
Speaker 2: things up and you just really have to be flexible
Speaker 2: and trust and really kind of you know, you have
Speaker 2: to have a lot of sort of you're juggling a
Speaker 2: lot of things at the same time and hoping sort
Speaker 2: of the dominoes fall right. It's it's it's really really
Speaker 2: tough to really break out and to get the projects going.
Speaker 2: You know, it's you probably heard like Bill talk about
Speaker 2: it a little bit, I know Gil as well. Like
Speaker 2: you know, you've always got to have so many of
Speaker 2: the sort of projects kind of heading towards that sort
Speaker 2: of interview stage, and then once you get through that,
Speaker 2: you could have a whole bunch and uh, you know,
Speaker 2: they just don't go to construction. They just sort of
Speaker 2: fizzle out through there. So it's amazing this, you know,
Speaker 2: to be able to watch Gil, who's you know, he's
Speaker 2: got the busiest architect in the world, and how much
Speaker 2: he's doing behind the scenes that once you know, we're
Speaker 2: on site with him, you don't really see how much
Speaker 2: has gone in behind. And it's i mean, these guys
Speaker 2: did you know, they're they're non stop Gil Tom these
Speaker 2: you know they're up at five am writing emails for
Speaker 2: two hours before and then Gil get on him a
Speaker 2: dozer from seven am to six pm and then he's
Speaker 2: back drawing plans and doing all these things and like
Speaker 2: it just never ends.
Speaker 3: But that's that's what it takes.
Speaker 2: And you know, it's it's been kind of cool to
Speaker 2: learn a little bit more about that the last couple
Speaker 2: of years and going with the trial and error strategy
Speaker 2: over here.
Speaker 1: What what was the first solo project you you got? Oh,
Speaker 1: the first one was actually the Village Club of Sands Point.
Speaker 1: That's uh.
Speaker 2: That came off a recommendation from Tom right on the
Speaker 2: heels of starting my own little company after China. That
Speaker 2: place was originally the private estate of Isaac and Solomon
Speaker 2: Gugenheim back in the roaring twenties, when you know, why
Speaker 2: wouldn't you have a nine hole golf course on your
Speaker 2: private estate and sail your boat into the city for
Speaker 2: work every day and then.
Speaker 1: It becomes like a life, right, you know, we're.
Speaker 2: Not quite there yet, So then it became IBM Country
Speaker 2: Club for quite a while when it was really changed
Speaker 2: around a little bit with the Trent Jones in that
Speaker 2: and still nine holes, and then.
Speaker 1: Who desired it originally telling has don't know.
Speaker 2: There's been like some suggestions of like a local kind
Speaker 2: of golf pro from one of the early clubs out
Speaker 2: there as well, but to be honest, I just don't know.
Speaker 2: There's still like a lot of a couple of features
Speaker 2: here there that remained from it, which are pretty cool,
Speaker 2: but it's really at this point what we see is
Speaker 2: an early Tom Doak course. Tom turned it from nine
Speaker 2: holes to eighteen. It was going to be one of
Speaker 2: his early projects, but it's part municipal and part run
Speaker 2: as a private club at the same time, and I
Speaker 2: think it took a long long time for them to
Speaker 2: really get it in the ground. So him about doing
Speaker 2: some you know, actually moving the clubhouse from it's in
Speaker 2: these old kind of stable buildings from the old estate days,
Speaker 2: which are actually really really cool.
Speaker 3: But the obvious thing sort of the whole.
Speaker 2: Time was put the clubhouse up at the old mansion
Speaker 2: that they have. It was way up on top of
Speaker 2: the hill. It looks directly into the city skyline on
Speaker 2: one side and then out to the Hampstead Bay on
Speaker 2: the other.
Speaker 3: So he kind of didn't.
Speaker 2: He was busy dealing with you know, other stuff like
Speaker 2: I probably stream song and things like that were starting
Speaker 2: to come online after that, so he recommended me as
Speaker 2: someone you know, still living in the city at the
Speaker 2: time and young and eager, and we've been slowly chipping
Speaker 2: away at things over the time. We looked at doing that.
Speaker 2: We didn't end up moving the clubhouse. We've rebuilt all
Speaker 2: the bunkers in house, and I have a sort of
Speaker 2: master plan permanently and sort of purgatory out there trying
Speaker 2: to sort through the.
Speaker 1: Difficult, difficult politics.
Speaker 2: But a good learning experience for you know, you know,
Speaker 2: at that point, I was like orobaly twenty five or
Speaker 2: twenty six when I first started what we completed the
Speaker 2: bunker project.
Speaker 3: It's probably five years ago now.
Speaker 2: So we did a little bit last spring to trying
Speaker 2: to get a little bit momentum to the full master plan.
Speaker 1: But at place has so much potential. I bet the
Speaker 1: you know, going back there, the way the way you
Speaker 1: view the whole industry is so much different than when
Speaker 1: you got that right right off of China.
Speaker 2: Oh Man, Like yeah, absolutely, yes. The uh, my proposals
Speaker 2: and just way I go about things now is certainly
Speaker 2: very much different than the I will be ultra fiery
Speaker 2: twenty five year old that they were deing with at
Speaker 2: the time.
Speaker 3: I'm from New York and it's still there.
Speaker 1: But it's good.
Speaker 2: I mean they're they're like that to you, right, they're
Speaker 2: tough Long Islanders. You know, if they're not giving you ship,
Speaker 2: something's wrong. So it's it's it's great.
Speaker 1: I I you know, it was a classic New York relationship.
Speaker 2: Of course it still is. It's I would be hurt
Speaker 2: if it was anything, but it's.
Speaker 1: They ever tell you you've changed, you know when you
Speaker 1: come back.
Speaker 3: I don't know, probably fatter and have less hair.
Speaker 1: But how hard is it? Recently? You were in France, right,
Speaker 1: and meanwhile you're trying to build your individual business mm
Speaker 1: hm and like wig, I mean you're gone, Like how
Speaker 1: do you interview? How do you pursue jobs and say
Speaker 1: America when you're in France? Like what? How's is that
Speaker 1: a really when you say you're gonna go do a job,
Speaker 1: say for Gil, how do you still try and win
Speaker 1: jobs back home? Or does it? Do you feel like
Speaker 1: sometimes you might cost yourself stuff?
Speaker 2: Uh? I don't know, I mean it sure I could
Speaker 2: have instead of spending five months there, I could have
Speaker 2: been pounding the pavement every day at home in that time,
Speaker 2: I guess. But you know, that was such a unique,
Speaker 2: incredible opportunity to go over there. I just really didn't
Speaker 2: want to pass that up. I had the opportunity to
Speaker 2: work in France for like a month before, and I
Speaker 2: heard about that that was a potential.
Speaker 3: I sort of.
Speaker 2: Knew that's what we want to I wanted to go
Speaker 2: do that because it was such a unique opportunity and
Speaker 2: in such an incredible place. But you know, it's not
Speaker 2: like we're there five months continuously. You know, we definitely
Speaker 2: have to come back for things here or they and
Speaker 2: I don't know, somehow it it managed to work out.
Speaker 2: We seemed to have added a couple new clients over
Speaker 2: the course of the years, so I don't know how
Speaker 2: it happened, but it I you know, I think people
Speaker 2: understand that, you know, that was a unique opportunity, and
Speaker 2: it was you know, ultra passionate about what I do,
Speaker 2: and you know, I just wanted to see more great
Speaker 2: Tom Simpson stuff at the same time, and you know,
Speaker 2: there was also the opportunity to sort of try to
Speaker 2: get your foot in the door a little bit with
Speaker 2: some places over there, I suppose.
Speaker 1: Well I imagine too, like a club probably doesn't want
Speaker 1: to hire somebody that's just like not around, like that's
Speaker 1: just I'm not not saying not around, but like not
Speaker 1: working like you know, that's like yeah, and they're being.
Speaker 2: By you know, the clubs that work at they we
Speaker 2: pretty much buttoned up a lot of work in the
Speaker 2: in the fall heading into Christmas, and you know, they
Speaker 2: weren't going to be digging or anything. So if you know, two,
Speaker 2: you know, a couple of regular consulting visits through the
Speaker 2: spring or the fall were easy to sort of work around.
Speaker 2: And when I came home, you know, the poor you
Speaker 2: know girlfriend, now fiance probably didn't see me. I was
Speaker 2: probably working as much when I was at home as
Speaker 2: I was when I was there, so it wasn't really
Speaker 2: like I was at home. But you know, and at
Speaker 2: the same time, Gill and Jim have always sort of
Speaker 2: known what that I sort of want to do stuff
Speaker 2: on my own, and they've been really really amazing at
Speaker 2: trying to help further that.
Speaker 1: So, you know, it just with fiance, not girlfriend.
Speaker 2: It was girlfriend at the time. Now fiance, I was
Speaker 2: very very careful about that. I'm sure she would have
Speaker 2: corrected me within minutes of you releasing this.
Speaker 3: I nailed that one. You can check the tape.
Speaker 1: We'll let her check the tape. You know, I've just
Speaker 1: loick it out. No funny editing here Now for a
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Speaker 1: back to yaeger Kovich. So you mentioned Tom Simpson and
Speaker 1: you visit tons of golf courses. You're always on me
Speaker 1: about visiting more golf courses, you know, hounding not.
Speaker 3: More, but go to different places.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, you.
Speaker 3: See plenty right.
Speaker 2: You've been incredible about going to all sorts of different
Speaker 2: places and promoting things that people have never really heard of.
Speaker 2: So I give you a shit about not going across
Speaker 2: the pond because you're but yeah.
Speaker 1: But but anyways, Tom Simpson, I'm a namor read his
Speaker 1: book What did you pick up this summer? Getting to
Speaker 1: see all those Tom Simpson courses that you you otherwise
Speaker 1: wouldn't have had, Because I feel like that's you know,
Speaker 1: it's the lifelong study architecture and and what are maybe
Speaker 1: one or two things that you learned from seeing all that?
Speaker 2: I think, so there's there's two real things I think
Speaker 2: that sort of set him apart from is the the
Speaker 2: way he was able to I certainly had a couple
Speaker 2: of his courses, the Natural Greens and keep.
Speaker 3: The Greens so far down.
Speaker 2: He's so good at getting his features, especially the bunkers,
Speaker 2: but mostly the greens, just like at Grade is perfectly
Speaker 2: sunk into the ground where you know, we just spent
Speaker 2: the you know, we've been walking around tilling half stuff
Speaker 2: for like six hours already today and every all the
Speaker 2: greens you see, you know, they're all pushed up. And
Speaker 2: but what I loved about Simpsons is like you couldn't
Speaker 2: tell where the fairway stopped in the green and it
Speaker 2: was just really just that seamless blend. And to be
Speaker 2: able to do that back then. It was pretty incredible
Speaker 2: because he was sure he was digging these things out,
Speaker 2: and you can see he's got all these old cinders.
Speaker 2: The guy was essentially building like these rudimentary USGA type
Speaker 2: greens like sunk in the ground and built back up
Speaker 2: to these finish grades.
Speaker 3: He's got all these kind.
Speaker 1: Of colol holes, so he would dig out.
Speaker 2: He must have, because if you go walk around like Shantie,
Speaker 2: you can see all these like cinder like stone sort
Speaker 2: of popping and exposed through the bunkers where they're kind
Speaker 2: of a little more burnt out in the road, and
Speaker 2: like you can see what's under the greens. But the
Speaker 2: greens are at perfect natural grades, so the you know,
Speaker 2: foresight be able to you know, see all that stuff
Speaker 2: go way down, fill it back up and layer it
Speaker 2: beautifully as so it's like you couldn't tell that anything
Speaker 2: was done. Was pretty pretty incredible. So the greens, that
Speaker 2: great thing is really amazing, especially like you know, we
Speaker 2: build a lot of usg A greens, right, and it's
Speaker 2: really really difficult with us g greens to make it
Speaker 2: kind of have that seam. As you've played Garden City, right,
Speaker 2: you know, it's like almost everything at shanty was just
Speaker 2: like that that. I just thought that was the coolest
Speaker 2: thing ever.
Speaker 1: And then talk about you know, people throw around us
Speaker 1: GA greens and being somebody that's built a lot of greens,
Speaker 1: like what what what constraints do us g A greens
Speaker 1: create that that non USGA greens don't?
Speaker 3: You know, I don't know about.
Speaker 2: The constraint stuff, But I think you just have to
Speaker 2: be really really take the time and be conscious of
Speaker 2: is you you create these wells right, so to get
Speaker 2: the cavity to go with the drainage, the four inches
Speaker 2: of stone, the twelve inches of mix, all that stuff.
Speaker 2: You know, you kind of get the if you build
Speaker 2: a landform and it looks really good, well now you've
Speaker 2: got to drop six thousand square feet at sixteen inches,
Speaker 2: so all of a sudden you're gonna end up with
Speaker 2: all this extra dirt. And it's easy to just raise
Speaker 2: everything around it. But to be able to take the
Speaker 2: time and like you know, false fronts are difficult with
Speaker 2: and like all the false sides, and to get the
Speaker 2: edges of things like you might have seen today, you know,
Speaker 2: how you get the contours to spill off the edges
Speaker 2: and the unusable green space perhaps right, you know, and
Speaker 2: how it drapes over, how it's rising up into other
Speaker 2: contours and tying into things. It's really really hard for
Speaker 2: a lot of people to get the everything to match
Speaker 2: and to be able to visualize how it's all going
Speaker 2: to come back up at the end. So I think
Speaker 2: that it's it's really just about taking the sort of
Speaker 2: time and you know, focusing on on making sure that
Speaker 2: I suppose if you want, if that's what you're going
Speaker 2: to get that sort of stuff in there.
Speaker 3: There's no reason.
Speaker 2: Why you you could have a USGA green that does
Speaker 2: exactly the same as any sort of push up native
Speaker 2: soil anything like that.
Speaker 3: You could build this whole thing in native grade and.
Speaker 2: Then have someone come core it out and just paint
Speaker 2: the lines at the end and pull all the extra
Speaker 2: but you got to cart it away and stuff.
Speaker 3: But there's there's a lot of different ways.
Speaker 2: It's more about the attention and the time and the effort,
Speaker 2: because it's easy to just it's a lot easier to
Speaker 2: not do that stuff if you don't want to with
Speaker 2: the methodology, I guess.
Speaker 1: Having work for Tom and Gil, But say you were
Speaker 1: gonna if you could just you know, take one you
Speaker 1: just like you know the monstars in Space Jam and
Speaker 1: how they sap the the NBA player's power superpower. Yeah,
Speaker 1: if you could just take one skill from each of them, right,
Speaker 1: and it's yours, now, what would it be?
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 3: Well, like the sort of the way I kind of
Speaker 3: describe it as well. Tom's sort of.
Speaker 2: Like he's like Bill Belichick of the golf art Like
Speaker 2: he's just like the like, you couldn't try to be Tom, right,
Speaker 2: there's only one Tom, Like, you can't do that. But
Speaker 2: there's so I love his golf courses. He's so good
Speaker 2: at always making things different. They always people try to
Speaker 2: you know, oh he's the guy with the crazy bunkers
Speaker 2: or whatever.
Speaker 3: You know a lot of times it's wild, wild greens,
Speaker 3: But that's not always the case.
Speaker 2: He's just so good at constantly reinventing his style from
Speaker 2: course to and that's that's part of the brilliance. Obviously
Speaker 2: the routing stuff as well. And but so it's got
Speaker 2: to be one of those two things. Whether it's the
Speaker 2: it's he's just the mad genius, right.
Speaker 1: It just seems like he gets if he had to
Speaker 1: build the same type of course all the time, he'd
Speaker 1: get bored and he wouldn't want to do it. So
Speaker 1: he's always trying to do something different.
Speaker 2: Of course, and I totally buy any of that. I
Speaker 2: don't like doing the same thing over and over again,
Speaker 2: you know, I'm constantly looking to I'm just sort of
Speaker 2: like trying to shake things up and always chasing something different.
Speaker 3: You know. It's there's a lot of sort of us sort.
Speaker 2: Of younger shapers like man, you know, we've all built, like,
Speaker 2: you know, a gazillion blowout bunkers.
Speaker 3: You know, I don't want to do that.
Speaker 2: So that's why going to France was really cool because
Speaker 2: we got to do it was a flatter site, you
Speaker 2: got to really sort of do some unique things that
Speaker 2: you know, it's way different than restoring to It's way
Speaker 2: different than you know, it was a new challenge to
Speaker 2: try to do that sort of stuff. So I really
Speaker 2: that's what I you know, I like them. But so
Speaker 2: I suppose it's the the routing stuff with Tom or
Speaker 2: the rive to always create something different, and you know
Speaker 2: with Gil, you know, there's a number of things. So
Speaker 2: it's like, you know, I love that he is so
Speaker 2: adamant and same with Jim, right, they're adamant about getting
Speaker 2: on the machines every day still, right, that's their favorite part.
Speaker 2: It's it's getting on the doser at seven am and
Speaker 2: just going out there and creating.
Speaker 3: And it hasn't turned into.
Speaker 2: Like you know, they trust us to you know, do
Speaker 2: a lot of the editing and things that are and
Speaker 2: edit ourselves and kind of work as a team, but
Speaker 2: to still be able to go out there and do
Speaker 2: all that as well as continuously route and get the
Speaker 2: jobs and stuff like that. You know, And it, like
Speaker 2: I was saying before, it takes the drive to wake up.
Speaker 2: It it's you know, insane amount of insanely early and
Speaker 2: then do all that and then shape and then chase.
Speaker 2: It's so it's you know, work ethic and then just
Speaker 2: the you know, passionate about still shaping everything on their own.
Speaker 2: That's something that I for sure, Uh, I can't for
Speaker 2: see a day where I don't want to do that.
Speaker 2: To me, it's still my favorite thing ever too. It's
Speaker 2: getting on the doser. That's that's my favorite. So I
Speaker 2: think it's kind of you know, a sort of a
Speaker 2: combination is great because I get I do get to
Speaker 2: pick parts of each and sort of find my own way.
Speaker 2: And I've probably personality wise. You know, I probably changed
Speaker 2: a little bit too, I you know, from seeing how
Speaker 2: both both guys just are and what works for them.
Speaker 2: And it's been it's been a really nice, uh learning
Speaker 2: experience from from two of the best.
Speaker 3: Couldn't have worked out better, I guess.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, it's uh. Would you would you say that
Speaker 1: tilling Hass has been the architect, you know, Golden age
Speaker 1: architect that you've been influenced by the most, maybe you
Speaker 1: know early?
Speaker 3: I guess so definitely. I think you probably have to.
Speaker 2: I'd probably have to say yeah, just because I've seen
Speaker 2: such a huge amount of his work.
Speaker 1: I live pretty close to a lot of the best stuff.
Speaker 1: You caddied at one of the best. Yeah, you've been
Speaker 1: part of a bunch of restorations. Yeah, your your work,
Speaker 1: it's suburbon and it's right.
Speaker 2: So I've had a lot of those sort of dream
Speaker 2: come true moments, which is pretty cool.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: So he was certainly my first architectural hero. But then
Speaker 2: when you know, Gil asked about doing the project at Ridgewood, Oh, like,
Speaker 2: you know, I got to caddy there in the med Open,
Speaker 2: you know, when I was in college. So getting to
Speaker 2: go there and like restore all twenty seven holes ahead
Speaker 2: of the tournament. Was I mean and live at home
Speaker 2: at the same time, right, I could I sleep my
Speaker 2: own bed twenty minutes away. I mean, this is this
Speaker 2: is absolutely a dream come true job. And then you
Speaker 2: know that that project turned out to be, you know,
Speaker 2: just a home run, and you know, I really sort
Speaker 2: of fell in love with the sort of the process
Speaker 2: of the restorations from there. But yeah, so you know
Speaker 2: then when Gil asked about going to the Creek Fenway,
Speaker 2: rather it was during.
Speaker 3: The Creek project, which is how that came out of.
Speaker 2: But you know that was you know, getting to work
Speaker 2: down the street from Quaker, you know, the famous street
Speaker 2: here with four top one hundred twing house courses, I
Speaker 2: mean incredible. Fenway was one of the earlier of the
Speaker 2: doing house courses I saw, So get to do a
Speaker 2: little bit of work there, and then, you know, the
Speaker 2: first time getting hired to do a towing house restoration
Speaker 2: my own last year suburban was you know, it just
Speaker 2: happens again, and you know I was just honestly, just
Speaker 2: yesterday I got hired to do you know by another
Speaker 2: club in Philadelphia where you know, they actually had a
Speaker 2: tilling cast course back in the day and ended up
Speaker 2: having to move properties in the sixties, so they lost that,
Speaker 2: but they still have the history. We've been able to
Speaker 2: find some of the old photos of it and are
Speaker 2: now kind of hoping to do a project where we
Speaker 2: can sort of reconnect them with some of that history
Speaker 2: and bring some of that style into their new property.
Speaker 2: And it's property has just insane potential right on the
Speaker 2: Wissahicken Creek. So again, I mean, it's just got all
Speaker 2: the right elements and I think, you know, it matches
Speaker 2: perfectly with sort of Tilly's style.
Speaker 1: So just another sort of the talk about Tilly style.
Speaker 1: If they were just you know, somebody who's listening who's
Speaker 1: lived in Los Angeles who's never seen a Tilling hast
Speaker 1: what what what do they? What would you? How would
Speaker 1: you kind of if you were going to just distill it?
Speaker 1: And sure there's the is.
Speaker 2: He really adapted his style to the sites, which is
Speaker 2: pretty pretty incredible. You know, they're all they all have
Speaker 2: this thing where you can kind of tell they were
Speaker 2: all designed by the same guy. They all have something
Speaker 2: that draws you to them and you like, you know,
Speaker 2: but they all can look very different. The bunker styles
Speaker 2: can be drastically different the Greens.
Speaker 3: I mean, you walked on wing Foot.
Speaker 2: Screens this morning, and then you walked on Fenways a
Speaker 2: little bit later here this, and they're they're very, very different,
Speaker 2: and they're just down the street from each other. Quaker
Speaker 2: is physically in the middle, but it also it's stylistically
Speaker 2: probably in the middle as well.
Speaker 3: It's much more subtle.
Speaker 2: And then you just go down the street again to
Speaker 2: another and it's again, it's it's a total you know,
Speaker 2: Somerset Hills is so different from wing Foot, is so
Speaker 2: different from balt as well, not just in the Greens,
Speaker 2: but the bunkering right Ridgewood has these crazy fingers and
Speaker 2: things like that, and it's super artistic and flashed.
Speaker 3: And then you know, Fenway was very simply.
Speaker 2: You kind of rolled down a lot of those sort
Speaker 2: of figure eighty kidney Bean type things. But then all
Speaker 2: of a sudden, we'll just throw like a you know,
Speaker 2: that giant's hair complex like on three, and it's just like, oh, okay,
Speaker 2: well I've seen that's the hair. Okay, well he does
Speaker 2: that Hell's half Acre things right like Quaker. You'll see tomorrow,
Speaker 2: Beth Page. I mean, they're they're all over. They're all
Speaker 2: over the place, so it's they always have. There's little
Speaker 2: bits and pieces like that. There's you know, countless holes,
Speaker 2: right he named like little Tilly, these tiny little holes
Speaker 2: that are just like little devils. He built a couple
Speaker 2: of dad's. He's got tempoate holes too, like the reef hole.
Speaker 2: You know, he talked like double dog wakely. But I
Speaker 2: think also the biggest thing he and I think in
Speaker 2: his style too, was I think his phrasing was the
Speaker 2: immaculate contouring and the way the approaches blend seamlessly into
Speaker 2: the greens. So that's that in terms of feature wise,
Speaker 2: i'd say is the number one overriding thing is that
Speaker 2: the contouring and the approaches just seamlessly blending and tying
Speaker 2: in and how they function as one right to be
Speaker 2: able to bounce the ball and back then was a
Speaker 2: really really big deal. So and you know, maybe that
Speaker 2: came from some of the plast scene model stuff and
Speaker 2: how he just sort of worked all that together.
Speaker 3: It is like you couldn't just do the green.
Speaker 2: You had to also you know, move the the material
Speaker 2: around with you, like up into the approach and tied
Speaker 2: into something. And maybe that's sort of how it developed,
Speaker 2: I don't know, but I feel like that's pretty consistent
Speaker 2: all the way through. And then you get little things
Speaker 2: like you know, he definitely had a tendency to and
Speaker 2: he loved like holes with sort of water features and
Speaker 2: things like that too, probably a bit more than most guys.
Speaker 3: Like you know, there's a yazillion of.
Speaker 2: His courses that have like those little creeks or ditches
Speaker 2: that are like, you know, maybe at one point held water,
Speaker 2: but you can't kind of figure like they had some
Speaker 2: sort of function and uh a like strategic form value
Speaker 2: as well. And then uh, you know, he saw dishes
Speaker 2: at wing Foot, we saw ben Way, They're over Balty there,
Speaker 2: They're everywhere. But he also would like re route creeks
Speaker 2: and things like that, and he build all those island greens,
Speaker 2: and I mean he would like right the moat Hoole,
Speaker 2: the Benny Killhole, the island green at Jack's Son Eagles,
Speaker 2: like tons of them, right, I was saying earlier, He's
Speaker 2: probably built more island greens than Pete Dye.
Speaker 3: But you know, beat Eye's the island green guy.
Speaker 2: It's you know, it's kind of funny how some of
Speaker 2: that guests lost or whatever or sort of falls out,
Speaker 2: but that's that was very much his Uh he loved
Speaker 2: that sort of stuff, I guess, but you know, a
Speaker 2: lot of people to talk about like the Duffer's headache
Speaker 2: thing right where he was very famous. We would have
Speaker 2: changed his style where you know, maybe early on he
Speaker 2: would have had that stuff and then on his big
Speaker 2: tour through the country took a lot of that stuff out.
Speaker 2: And he probably did a lot of good for golf
Speaker 2: in that sense when he was with the PGA. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just visiting courses every day, racking up more miles
Speaker 1: than the two of us. Probably how many bars do
Speaker 1: you think he visited during that time?
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 3: Maybe he's just getting looped up in the back of
Speaker 3: the Model T or whatever. He didn't have a club in.
Speaker 1: He didn't have a club man. Yeah, he was every
Speaker 1: clubs man, no man.
Speaker 3: At that point.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the conversation comes full of circles, you know, just.
Speaker 3: Tie it all together. Tians matter, man, Tians matter.
Speaker 1: Growing up in New York, Yeah, everybody always asks me
Speaker 1: where should I play public look off in New York?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: You probably know public GoF in New York as well
Speaker 1: as anybody. Uh maybe, Yeah, how would you what would
Speaker 1: be your recommendations on the island Jersey and north of
Speaker 1: the city.
Speaker 2: Well, the island, everybody's going to tell you go to
Speaker 2: bed Page, right, that's the obvious one black, but also
Speaker 2: the Red's awesome. I suppose there's lots of theories of
Speaker 2: whether it's Twig Hast or Burback or whatever, but either way.
Speaker 1: You think, what would your opinion be if you had
Speaker 1: to there's.
Speaker 2: I don't know if you look at one eighteen as
Speaker 2: it the fifth or sixth, at the part five that
Speaker 2: climbs up the hill on the Red and then they've
Speaker 2: got that really crazy hole out there kind of somewhere
Speaker 2: around like nine or ten with this crazy central hazard
Speaker 2: bunker complex and fairway left and fairway right to those
Speaker 2: just scream tilling. Has to me, I've seen Tilly built
Speaker 2: a very similar hole to that, just without bunkers at
Speaker 2: Quaker you're gonna see tomorrow on the eighth.
Speaker 1: It's about San Francisco twelve, right, So you know, maybe
Speaker 1: the other guy did it from his plant. I don't know,
Speaker 1: But you know, how did you know I've gone out
Speaker 1: there to play what was it the yellow course with
Speaker 1: the reef hole? Well, how did Burbeck come up with
Speaker 1: the reef hole. You know, Tilly's writing about it all
Speaker 1: the time. You know, there was there's an awesome one
Speaker 1: in Suburban. There's an awesome one at Quaker. There's Southward
Speaker 1: Hoe on the you know, I don't know, I don't
Speaker 1: quite get that. But whatever, I'm not the history that's
Speaker 1: gonna shuffle.
Speaker 2: Through the endless documents and like what is at a
Speaker 2: certain point, how much does it really matter? It's still
Speaker 2: an awesome golf course, and I would go play the
Speaker 2: Black Blue Red Red before blue, but there's some cool
Speaker 2: stuff on that one. But either way, there's there's like
Speaker 2: other public stuff out there. There's Eisenhower Park right, has
Speaker 2: the a met court, the old Salisbury right that was
Speaker 2: the famous uh you know, garden City before Garden City, Right.
Speaker 2: So the island is a little tougher on the public
Speaker 2: golf options, to be honest, I've been out to man
Speaker 2: talk downs.
Speaker 3: It's cool.
Speaker 2: The property is amazing, but it could really be something
Speaker 2: super incredible. But it's still worth your time. But it's
Speaker 2: way way, way, way way out there, so it's hard
Speaker 2: to send people. But as you know, just recently I've
Speaker 2: been telling people instead of you know, you could go
Speaker 2: to beth Page. But if you want to play the
Speaker 2: best public course west of that in the New York
Speaker 2: City area, you got to go to Sun Eagles, which
Speaker 2: is fifty minutes i'd say, south of the of Lower
Speaker 2: Manhattan and kind of on the Jersey Shore there it was.
Speaker 2: It was a private club for a very long time
Speaker 2: and then became part of the well.
Speaker 3: I guess it was.
Speaker 2: I don't know if it was Mamouth Parks first or
Speaker 2: it was an army base actually, so there's still army
Speaker 2: barracks on it and has recently been purchased. But that
Speaker 2: golf course is freaking amazing. They're greens there that are
Speaker 2: even more severe than what you walked across today at
Speaker 2: Fenway or Wingfoot, And I mean, that would be another
Speaker 2: dream job place to help them get that thing back
Speaker 2: in order. It's outrageously good. So they're nineteenth I believe
Speaker 2: it was nineteen twenty five it was. They have these records.
Speaker 2: I guess they had the well. One of the majors
Speaker 2: was at Oakmont that year, and then it was heading
Speaker 2: up I guess it was twenty five or thirty five.
Speaker 1: They were heading up somewhere else in North Jersey.
Speaker 3: It was either.
Speaker 2: Ridgewood or Wingfoot there and they were asked to pros
Speaker 2: and Sun Eagles or I guess back then it was
Speaker 2: going by a different name, but they said that was
Speaker 2: the harder of the three golf courses. So that just
Speaker 2: tells like there's there's a lot of other public and
Speaker 2: even municipal golf in the met area that has gone
Speaker 2: from private and is now publicly accessible. So you've got
Speaker 2: rock Spring which just went there. You've got Francis Byrne,
Speaker 2: You've got Hendrick's Field Club. There's a ton of those
Speaker 2: that you can get, you know, Rainer Banks, tilling Hast.
Speaker 2: You know, it probably doesn't have uh Steve Ravidu or
Speaker 2: Rabolanzi conditions on top of it, but the stuff underneath
Speaker 2: is is every bit is good. And I wish I
Speaker 2: knew about those when you know, we were still driving
Speaker 2: to some of these other places back when I was
Speaker 2: a kid.
Speaker 1: But the thing with those, I mean, how with these
Speaker 1: public golf courses that I think like one of the
Speaker 1: things that they they just it seems like they think
Speaker 1: they have to go and do everything all at once.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's tough because like sometimes with I guess the
Speaker 2: public funding stuff is like, you know, the way a
Speaker 2: lot of people will get is like we only get
Speaker 2: one chance to ask. They're not we're not able to
Speaker 2: go back and ask for more again, right poetically, that
Speaker 2: just doesn't work. So they I guess it's like, Okay,
Speaker 2: we're going to ask for one thing, you know, one
Speaker 2: chunk of capital, and so I think a lot maybe
Speaker 2: stuff gets packaged into that.
Speaker 1: That makes sense. But I mean, couldn't you in a
Speaker 1: way just tack it into like a budget on an
Speaker 1: annual basis, like X amount of dollars, especially somewhere that's.
Speaker 2: Doing yeah, like a yearly capital release sort of. Yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 2: But you know so much too is right, You've got
Speaker 2: to get the trees out before you can even do
Speaker 2: any of the work. So I definitely stole the phrase
Speaker 2: from a friend, but you know, I call it the
Speaker 2: the scissors before shovels process. Right, you got to get
Speaker 2: the trees out, You got to get the air going,
Speaker 2: the sun out, improve the conditions, and also give yourself
Speaker 2: the room to work because it's such a huge you know,
Speaker 2: there's very few places they're going to have the money
Speaker 2: to cut down.
Speaker 1: You know. You know, some of these trees around here
Speaker 1: are like three thousand dollars a pop to get out.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: I know you're like, h put them on the side
Speaker 3: of the road. But you know what, it doesn't work
Speaker 3: around here, no, so you.
Speaker 1: Know I've dried.
Speaker 2: Yes, it does not work around here where you can't
Speaker 2: even find an organic dump that'll take stuff anymore.
Speaker 3: It's really really difficult.
Speaker 2: So like, you know, if you can slowly go through
Speaker 2: that process over time, everything's going to get better in
Speaker 2: the meantime, but then you have the room to do
Speaker 2: the stuff after.
Speaker 3: If that makes sense, I guess.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, because that's the thing I always think about
Speaker 1: it is like, how do you get somewhere on like
Speaker 1: a twenty year plan, because so many clubs do it
Speaker 1: that way where you go back every year and it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: this got a little bit better, and then twenty years
Speaker 1: later you're like, whoa, this place is really good now,
Speaker 1: you know, And it's like, to me, that's where they
Speaker 1: need to go because they can't afford to shut down.
Speaker 1: And a lot of clubs can't afford to shut down
Speaker 1: that are in similar positions. But that doesn't mean you
Speaker 1: can't improve because because what happens is they keep going backwards.
Speaker 1: That I'm just nodding in agreement. For the most part.
Speaker 3: It's tough.
Speaker 2: But you know, it's funny as I was asked this
Speaker 2: question in an interview, right, it's like a week ago, like, well,
Speaker 2: you know, if this process, if you know, if this
Speaker 2: takes us twenty years, are you okay with that?
Speaker 3: I was working. I'm like, well, I'm young enough. I
Speaker 3: see the potential in this property.
Speaker 1: You know, if it takes us twenty years, I'm totally
Speaker 1: cool with that.
Speaker 3: Are you guys cool with that?
Speaker 2: Because if we can get it, there no problem, you know, certainly,
Speaker 2: you know, maybe a one you know, you might get
Speaker 2: too caught up to do something when you know it's
Speaker 2: going to be tough to schedule that.
Speaker 3: You know, not everybody even bored to, like.
Speaker 1: You know, to do. But what are you doing in
Speaker 1: August fifth and twenty thirty five?
Speaker 2: Oh man, you were talking about what do you get
Speaker 2: your the st anxiety of not knowing what you're gonna
Speaker 2: do literally next week?
Speaker 3: You know, So that's a little right.
Speaker 2: No fiance is listening to this, just cringing, and she
Speaker 2: can't get me to kneel down a wedding date right now,
Speaker 2: and you're.
Speaker 3: Talking about twenty years down the road.
Speaker 1: You need to do that. Happy wife, happy life.
Speaker 3: We got it. Yes, yes, it'll be It'll be done
Speaker 3: very very shortly, I promise.
Speaker 1: I'm siding with missus or missus soon to be Missus
Speaker 1: proper golf.
Speaker 3: Right, Yes, that's that's a wise move.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I wish we had more time. We're gonna have
Speaker 1: to do this again. I mean we haven't even scratched
Speaker 1: the surface. We haven't even talked about you know.
Speaker 2: Raider McDonald or you know Langford. Right, you got Tom
Speaker 2: Simpson in, but you didn't get old Bill Langford.
Speaker 1: And so that's okay, I don't you're you've seen Simpson.
Speaker 1: I haven't seen anything of Simpson, so I'm genuinely curious.
Speaker 3: It's good, it's good. I'm glad. I'm glad.
Speaker 2: We we got at least perhaps one of the if
Speaker 2: not the greatest architect of all time, got it least
Speaker 2: to mention on here.
Speaker 3: So good for him.
Speaker 1: Yeah. You know the thing i'd be to come enamored
Speaker 1: with is Perry Maxwell. Yep. Essentially you know, writing, you know,
Speaker 1: vapid statements about who I believe to be lank from
Speaker 1: a row. I mean they were, they must have pated
Speaker 1: each other. He talks about the steam shovel, he just
Speaker 1: bashes the steam shovel.
Speaker 2: It's writing, Well, those little micro contours and rolls that
Speaker 2: he got, it's you know, I guess it's like the
Speaker 2: same thing now.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: I use a bulldozer and an excavator with a knucklebucket
Speaker 2: for pretty much all the shaping. But there's other guys
Speaker 2: out there that use skid steers and it just drives
Speaker 2: me nuts. I don't I cannot possibly understand how you
Speaker 2: get that machine to make the same shapes that I
Speaker 2: can out there. It's just I don't know how you
Speaker 2: do it, at least without rolling the thing over on
Speaker 2: top of yourself like thirty times in the process. But
Speaker 2: so maybe that's all that is, you know, it's like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I like this tool, you like that tool. I mean,
Speaker 2: it's you know, Apple versus the guys with the little
Speaker 2: green bubbles. You know.
Speaker 3: Maybe it's just like that.
Speaker 2: No one likes the person in your group chat that's
Speaker 2: got the turns the whole thing green, Right, that's the worst?
Speaker 1: Are you a green guy?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 1: Come on, the great that's the worst. And then all
Speaker 1: you can't do like the new like thing where you like,
Speaker 1: you know that shows up as a text of them.
Speaker 1: It's awful. The great news is we got more time
Speaker 1: Jager and I. He went out and shot some more
Speaker 1: photos at wing Foot and he wanted to miss traffic,
Speaker 1: so Jaeger came back and we recorded about another hour.
Speaker 1: So that'll be Part two. That'll be up on Monday
Speaker 1: or Tuesday of next week, so look forward to that
Speaker 1: and thanks again to Jaeger for his time, and look
Speaker 1: for Part two early next week.