WEBVTT - 3: The Promise of a New Day 0:00:03.880 --> 0:00:07.080 Let's talk for a minute about Akron, Ohio. It's a 0:00:07.160 --> 0:00:09.559 historical site for pop and rock music. It turns out 0:00:09.800 --> 0:00:13.240 it's where the Black Keys met and Devo. It's Chrissy 0:00:13.360 --> 0:00:17.040 hines hometown, the city she wrote my City was Gone about. 0:00:17.400 --> 0:00:19.320 And then that song became the theme for the Rush 0:00:19.400 --> 0:00:22.200 Lim Boss Show, and that makes me feel bad. And 0:00:22.280 --> 0:00:25.760 somewhere in that city there's a Sheraton hotel lobby that, 0:00:25.840 --> 0:00:28.160 for a brief moment in nineteen ninety one, was a 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:31.240 magic portal. You walked into that lobby and if you 0:00:31.280 --> 0:00:33.400 sang for the right person in the right way, you 0:00:33.479 --> 0:00:36.919 walked out with a life that was changed forever. If 0:00:36.920 --> 0:00:39.680 that Nicole Brown sang a song called go Outside in 0:00:39.720 --> 0:00:42.720 the Rain for Michael Bivens in that hotel and her 0:00:42.760 --> 0:00:46.400 life changed course. And that same night, in that same place, 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:48.720 a young guy who was about to start his freshman 0:00:48.840 --> 0:00:51.560 year at Ohio University tried the same thing. 0:00:52.680 --> 0:00:54.920 I sang for him in a hotel lobby at like 0:00:54.920 --> 0:00:56.800 two in the morning, and he called me the next 0:00:56.880 --> 0:01:00.480 day and he was like, going off for your record deal. Whatever. 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:04.440 Hayden hi Do was eighteen, a jock with a voice 0:01:04.480 --> 0:01:07.920 big enough to fill a Sheriton Hotel Atrium. He sang 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:10.880 for Michael Bivens, and his life took a detour, one 0:01:10.920 --> 0:01:13.960 that went right through the East Coast family, one that 0:01:14.040 --> 0:01:19.199 lasted about a decade, one that involves Beyonce. He's gonna 0:01:19.200 --> 0:01:22.360 tell us about it right now on Waiting for Impact, 0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:45.360 a Dave Holmes passion project. While Hayden Hid's life was changing, 0:01:45.560 --> 0:01:48.480 so was the rest of popular music. Later in the show, 0:01:48.480 --> 0:01:50.639 We're gonna go deep on the pop charts of nineteen 0:01:50.760 --> 0:01:53.280 ninety one and why that was the year that changed 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:56.120 everything about what got played on the radio with one 0:01:56.120 --> 0:01:59.440 of my favorite writers, Chris Malanfi. You're gonna learn something 0:01:59.520 --> 0:02:02.720 really interesting about the week that changed pop music forever, 0:02:03.240 --> 0:02:06.040 the week Nirvana's never Mind took the number one spot 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:09.600 away from Michael Jackson's Dangerous. But here's what we've learned 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:12.760 so far about Sudden Impact. We know Sudden Impact was 0:02:12.800 --> 0:02:15.360 one of the first artists to join Michael Bivins East 0:02:15.360 --> 0:02:18.119 Coast family. We know he got them signed to Motown. 0:02:18.520 --> 0:02:21.760 We know Bivins was so enthusiastic about them, so certain 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:25.520 they would succeed like Boys to Men ABC BBD, that 0:02:25.600 --> 0:02:28.120 he put them in the music video for Motown Philly. 0:02:28.880 --> 0:02:32.600 We know Motown Philly was inescapable in nineteen ninety one. 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:36.120 The three big places you could watch music videos back then, MTV, 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:39.560 VH one, and b ET played it all day long. 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:43.440 We know that after Motown Philly, Sudden Impact changed their 0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:48.800 name to White Guys Whytgize, but we don't know why. 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:51.160 We know that, in the wake of Boys to Men's 0:02:51.160 --> 0:02:54.440 success in nineteen ninety one, Bivins began expanding the East 0:02:54.480 --> 0:02:58.920 Coast Family. He signed rappers, vocal groups, singers, and we 0:02:58.960 --> 0:03:01.239 know that one of those singers is someone we now 0:03:01.320 --> 0:03:03.919 know as a vet, Nicole Brown, who joined the East 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:06.800 Coast Family after angrily singing and Michael Bivins in that 0:03:06.960 --> 0:03:10.359 same magical Sheriton lobby. And we know that in nineteen 0:03:10.400 --> 0:03:13.840 ninety two Bivins gathered all his protegees together to record 0:03:13.919 --> 0:03:16.760 a single and video called One for All four one. 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:20.800 They did a whole album, actually, East Coast Family, Volume one, 0:03:21.400 --> 0:03:23.400 one four All four to one. The song and the 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:29.480 video are pure nineteen ninety two sac The raps mostly 0:03:29.560 --> 0:03:32.480 ciggity sound like viggety this because that's what rappers did 0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:35.760 that year. It combines elements of the new Jack swing 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:38.040 sound that was hot at the time with the heavy 0:03:38.120 --> 0:03:41.320 hip hop beats that were becoming more popular. It's what 0:03:41.360 --> 0:03:44.600 we would later call a posse track. Chris Malanfi will 0:03:44.600 --> 0:03:47.240 tell you more about this in a little bit. Besides 0:03:47.360 --> 0:03:49.800 Yvette and white guys, there are a couple standouts in 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:53.360 this video for me. One a kid who introduces himself 0:03:53.400 --> 0:03:57.280 as Bivins's cousin Fruit Punch. He says, yup, my name 0:03:57.280 --> 0:04:01.560 means fruit Punch, but I don't get out much, which 0:04:01.600 --> 0:04:04.640 is an alarming thing for a child to say. There's 0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:07.560 a rap duo called ten ten, two kids who both 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:10.960 look about ten, both with their suspenders on backwards like 0:04:11.040 --> 0:04:14.160 Chris Cross was doing at the time, and then about 0:04:14.200 --> 0:04:16.520 a third of the way through, the guy that told 0:04:16.560 --> 0:04:25.279 me should have been huge, Hayden hiding. He only goes 0:04:25.279 --> 0:04:28.599 by his first name, Hayden, a corn fed white guy 0:04:28.640 --> 0:04:31.719 with a sport coat over his shoulder, looking every bit 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:35.559 the midwestern fraternity boy. He was one chance meeting away 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:40.400 from becoming Hayden can fucking sing, and with a vet's help, 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:43.760 I got in touch with him. Initially, I'm hoping he'll 0:04:43.800 --> 0:04:45.679 be the guy who hooks me up with sudden Impact, 0:04:45.720 --> 0:04:48.800 and I still hope that, but once I start talking 0:04:48.839 --> 0:04:51.680 to him, I find that I just want to know everything. 0:04:52.400 --> 0:04:54.520 He didn't get the fame and fortune he expected when 0:04:54.560 --> 0:04:57.000 he got that phone call from Michael Bivins, but he 0:04:57.040 --> 0:05:01.520 seems genuinely happy. Maybe what he got was something better. 0:05:01.880 --> 0:05:03.920 I was in the East Coast family, so I was 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:07.560 a solo artist signed to bit ten Records. 0:05:07.760 --> 0:05:10.039 When I speak with Hayden over Zoom, he's in his 0:05:10.120 --> 0:05:13.120 basement back in Ohio. He looks about the same as 0:05:13.120 --> 0:05:16.800 he did in the video. He's unassuming friendly. The music 0:05:16.839 --> 0:05:19.880 business is a memory for Hayden now, and probably a 0:05:19.880 --> 0:05:20.760 complicated one. 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:25.360 When my album was due for release, two weeks before 0:05:25.480 --> 0:05:30.120 my album was released, the CEO of Motown, Jerald Busby, resigned, 0:05:30.200 --> 0:05:32.800 so they put me on hold, and I was kind 0:05:32.800 --> 0:05:33.799 of in a holding patterns. 0:05:34.080 --> 0:05:37.000 But we're getting ahead of ourselves. Hayden Haidu grew up 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:40.120 in Akron, Ohio. He was an athlete, a football player, 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:43.040 but one who also liked to sing. And in the 0:05:43.080 --> 0:05:46.000 eighties you were supposed to stay in your lane. Mixing 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:50.320 sports with the arts unthinkable. Zac Efron and Corbyn Blue 0:05:50.320 --> 0:05:54.039 hadn't even been invented yet. That's a high school musical reference. 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:58.200 I sang in choir my senior year. I did a 0:05:58.360 --> 0:06:01.560 play by vi Berdie. But this was before you know, 0:06:01.680 --> 0:06:04.200 now you have athletes that want to get into acting 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:07.960 because you know, Disney's really popular, and it's the thing 0:06:08.000 --> 0:06:10.920 when I was in high school, like, if you played football, 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:13.040 you didn't like do the acting thing, you know, I 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:15.039 mean you were either an athlete or so. I was 0:06:15.120 --> 0:06:17.760 kind of, you know, I was kind of breaking a barrier. 0:06:17.839 --> 0:06:20.359 I think Hayden's plan was to go to college, but 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:22.919 he wasn't much of a student and his football career 0:06:23.000 --> 0:06:25.880 wasn't enough to get him a scholarship. So he applied 0:06:25.880 --> 0:06:28.200 to Ohio University and he sang for them. 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:32.359 I ended up going to OU and was offered a 0:06:32.440 --> 0:06:34.960 vocal scholarship. I went down and sang for them because 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:35.839 I didn't have the grades. 0:06:36.279 --> 0:06:38.440 But late that summer, just before he was about to 0:06:38.480 --> 0:06:42.040 start his freshman year, Hayden decided to take bold action. 0:06:42.839 --> 0:06:46.440 Before I went down, Michael Vivins, the Belvit Devo, was 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:52.240 doing a tour and they were in Ohio and Afron, Ohio, 0:06:52.320 --> 0:06:54.800 and that was right when Michael Vivins had founded Boys 0:06:54.880 --> 0:06:57.480 to Men, So every time he came off tour in 0:06:57.480 --> 0:07:01.279 this hotel, there were thousands of people going to sink form. 0:07:01.040 --> 0:07:02.640 Yeah, join that East Coast family. 0:07:02.720 --> 0:07:04.760 Yeah yeah right. And a buddy of mine called and 0:07:04.800 --> 0:07:06.200 he's like, dude, you got to get down here in 0:07:06.240 --> 0:07:06.760 sink for him. 0:07:07.360 --> 0:07:09.760 When you showed up at that hotel lobby to sing 0:07:09.760 --> 0:07:13.120 for Michael Bivens, what did you want? Did you did? 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:13.440 You know? 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:15.320 Like, what what did you picture? 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:18.680 I think, honestly, I was I had no I had 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:22.320 no idea. I was so innocent. I wish I could go, 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:24.000 you know, like I knew I could sing, but I 0:07:24.120 --> 0:07:28.280 just got up and just sang, you know, And I 0:07:28.320 --> 0:07:31.280 didn't I didn't have any you know. My buddy called 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:33.520 me and I just went up there and all these 0:07:33.560 --> 0:07:36.400 people were singing, and actually I was just waiting and 0:07:37.320 --> 0:07:39.240 I was like the last person to sing for him, 0:07:39.360 --> 0:07:41.440 and he just he wrote down my number on like 0:07:41.480 --> 0:07:43.000 the little gum wrapper. 0:07:43.600 --> 0:07:46.400 You know what happened next? Bivins called an Offred Hayden 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:48.920 a record deal. Now you may be asking yourself, how 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:51.520 does Michael Bivins have the cloud to just be tossing 0:07:51.600 --> 0:07:55.360 recording contracts out to strangers and share it and hotel lobbies. 0:07:55.760 --> 0:07:58.040 It's a good question and we will try to answer 0:07:58.080 --> 0:08:01.040 it later in the episode. But Bivin told Hayden, I'll 0:08:01.040 --> 0:08:03.720 call you back in two weeks. Write a song. Hayden 0:08:03.840 --> 0:08:06.160 had never written a song, but he figured he'd learn. 0:08:06.920 --> 0:08:09.600 He actually did go down to Ohio University to start 0:08:09.640 --> 0:08:12.360 his freshman year. But put yourself in his shoes. One 0:08:12.400 --> 0:08:14.960 of the biggest pop stars on the planet says, he's 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:17.200 going to make you a pop star, and you're going 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:20.120 to focus on Polysi one oh one or whatever. Get 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:20.520 out of here. 0:08:21.000 --> 0:08:23.240 I was wet behind the ears. You know. I was 0:08:23.240 --> 0:08:26.840 a Midwest kid from Ohio. Who you know. I mean, 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:29.440 I signed my record deal and then I went off 0:08:29.480 --> 0:08:32.160 to OU my freshman year, so I didn't even go 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:34.400 to class. You know. I was like, I'm out of here, 0:08:34.480 --> 0:08:35.800 you know. I mean, it was not it was not 0:08:35.880 --> 0:08:36.760 a good mix for me. 0:08:37.840 --> 0:08:40.680 I bet was there money involved at that stage? 0:08:40.800 --> 0:08:44.160 Well? Yeah, so when I signed, when I signed the deal, 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:46.320 at first, yeah, they gave me a little bit of 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:48.320 money and then I just went to college and he 0:08:48.440 --> 0:08:50.240 was like, look, you know, we got to get things 0:08:50.240 --> 0:08:55.240 set up and so it was about seven or eight 0:08:55.280 --> 0:08:57.199 months in and then I started going out to LA 0:08:57.320 --> 0:08:59.120 quite a bit, and it was just too hard for 0:08:59.160 --> 0:09:01.720 me to do both. You know. My dad was kind 0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:03.120 of like, are you sure you want to do this? 0:09:03.200 --> 0:09:04.880 And I was like, I'm out, you know, at eighteen 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:07.080 years old, get to move to LA and kind of 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:07.880 work on an album. 0:09:08.120 --> 0:09:11.760 Yeah. And then once the ball started rolling and you 0:09:11.800 --> 0:09:14.520 got signed, what were you picturing? 0:09:15.040 --> 0:09:17.120 I think in my mind, I thought I was going 0:09:17.200 --> 0:09:20.720 to like be a superstar. Honestly, I think I thought like, 0:09:21.120 --> 0:09:23.400 and I don't say this in a bragging way because 0:09:23.440 --> 0:09:26.400 I'm older now, but but I don't think I realized 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:28.280 maybe the talent that God gave me. And then when 0:09:28.320 --> 0:09:31.319 I started working with like real professionals and they were like, 0:09:31.760 --> 0:09:32.800 you're You're really good. 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:35.800 They settled on an image for Hayden. They wanted to 0:09:35.840 --> 0:09:38.760 make him like a nineties blue eyed soul man. They 0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:43.000 recorded an album, and Bivens kept working on Hayden. If 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:45.240 you know the story of New Edition, you know, these 0:09:45.280 --> 0:09:47.960 guys worked their asses off to be the biggest and 0:09:48.000 --> 0:09:51.080 the best, and Michael Bivens expected that kind of discipline 0:09:51.080 --> 0:09:52.000 from his artists. 0:09:52.360 --> 0:09:55.120 The Big ten label was more. They were really hands on, 0:09:55.280 --> 0:09:58.080 right you know Mike. Mike's a different dude. Like, you know, 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:00.360 I would be in an airport and he would be, I, dude, 0:10:00.360 --> 0:10:02.640 get on the tart, like, get on the you know, 0:10:02.880 --> 0:10:06.520 get up and start singing. He was like old school Motown. 0:10:06.600 --> 0:10:09.280 Oh yeah, like embarrassing moments like we did a restaurant. 0:10:09.320 --> 0:10:12.400 He'd be like, stand up, start singing and people are like, 0:10:12.440 --> 0:10:13.000 what are you doing? 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:15.440 So wait, so what what does that feel like to 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:16.480 have to do that? 0:10:16.920 --> 0:10:19.040 You're like, you're, well, you don't want to crap your 0:10:19.080 --> 0:10:21.800 you don't want to crap your pants because you're you know, yeah, 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:24.080 you're you know, every time you do something, it's like 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:25.880 it's live or die with him. You know, he grew 0:10:25.960 --> 0:10:28.199 up with you know, he was from an era where 0:10:28.280 --> 0:10:31.480 you know, you worked for everything you you wanted to 0:10:31.480 --> 0:10:34.160 make you a real artist. Right, So at the time 0:10:34.200 --> 0:10:36.240 you don't know that. You know, at some point you're thinking, 0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:38.960 in my am I filling up this guy's ego And 0:10:39.040 --> 0:10:40.720 what's the point. What's the point. But then when you 0:10:40.760 --> 0:10:43.240 look back, you know, I think he really wanted to 0:10:43.280 --> 0:10:46.040 prepare you for you know, you know, I mean new 0:10:46.080 --> 0:10:48.240 addition They're one of the hardest work in groups, you know. 0:10:49.200 --> 0:10:51.680 You know, they had sixteen hour rehearsals of pain, so 0:10:51.760 --> 0:10:53.760 he was all about he really wanted you to become 0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:54.240 an artist. 0:10:54.640 --> 0:10:57.680 If you remember, Evet said she loved that Hayden album, 0:10:58.080 --> 0:11:01.199 An event does not lie. Hayden's proud of it too. 0:11:01.440 --> 0:11:04.320 It's got a cover of Steely Dan's PEG with gospel 0:11:04.320 --> 0:11:07.199 group Take six doing the background vocals. They made a 0:11:07.280 --> 0:11:10.240 video for the first single, Funhouse, with Hayden kind of 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:12.720 doing a James Dean thing out in the California desert. 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:16.800 Motown was on board. The album was about to drop. 0:11:17.240 --> 0:11:21.080 You finish your record, and then then what happens. 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:24.559 Well, I get home to Cleveland and we shoot a 0:11:24.640 --> 0:11:27.640 video and it's like we're ready to go, like we're 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:30.640 looking for a promotional tour two three weeks, and then 0:11:30.640 --> 0:11:33.680 all of a sudden, Joe, you know, I get a 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:38.600 call Gerald Busby's resigned. You know, obviously Motown's on hold. 0:11:38.920 --> 0:11:41.360 This is a tale as old as time. A big 0:11:41.400 --> 0:11:44.240 executive gets excited about you, signs you to a deal, 0:11:44.440 --> 0:11:47.360 invests some time and money into you, and then that 0:11:47.480 --> 0:11:51.120 executive goes somewhere new maybe they get fired. Maybe they 0:11:51.160 --> 0:11:53.400 just get a new job somewhere else. But you can't 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:56.320 follow that executive to where they go because you're under 0:11:56.360 --> 0:11:59.520 contract to the place they signed you too. You're obligated 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:02.120 to the play and not the person. And the new 0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:05.040 executive comes in, and that new executive has projects that 0:12:05.200 --> 0:12:08.040 they're excited to invest some time and money into, and 0:12:08.320 --> 0:12:09.280 you're not one of them. 0:12:09.640 --> 0:12:11.320 Actually, the album we did was it was a really 0:12:11.320 --> 0:12:14.280 good album, but it just it never surfaced because you know, 0:12:14.280 --> 0:12:17.680 when Jerald Busby left Motown, there was quite a hiatus 0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:18.160 for a while. 0:12:18.400 --> 0:12:20.800 I'll say a couple of things here. One, after I 0:12:20.840 --> 0:12:23.400 spoke with Hayden, I emailed him to ask whether it's 0:12:23.440 --> 0:12:26.559 possible to hear that album anywhere, and as of now, 0:12:26.600 --> 0:12:28.920 he hasn't gotten back to me. It might be a 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:31.920 sore spot. I would understand if it were, but I'm 0:12:32.000 --> 0:12:34.800 dying to hear that record. And Two, I tried to 0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:37.640 track down Jerald Buzzby and he died in two thousand 0:12:37.640 --> 0:12:41.440 and eight. But Hayden's album sat on a shelf. It's 0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:44.280 nobody's fault. It's just the way it goes. It's actually 0:12:44.360 --> 0:12:45.640 the way it goes. A lot. 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:48.520 I don't think anyone goes in and makes an album 0:12:48.559 --> 0:12:51.560 and says this is this is going to fail, especially 0:12:51.600 --> 0:12:54.160 then because you know at the time, like you know, 0:12:54.480 --> 0:12:57.200 Motown Price spent one and a half million dollars on 0:12:57.280 --> 0:13:00.480 my album. I honestly believe that if we would have 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:03.679 released that album, it could have been pretty big because 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:06.600 I would have been like he was kind of marketing 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:10.400 me as like the new version of Elvis in a way, 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:12.160 so it was very R and B. But like we 0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:14.920 redid Love Me Tender from Elvis, and it was like 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:16.760 it was you know, it was just a there was 0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:19.280 nobody in the industry, you know, that was doing what 0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:21.360 I was doing. I always tell my wife, he loves 0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:24.280 Justin Timberlake. I'm like, he stole, he stole everything from me. 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:28.439 Man, justin Timberlake cannot catch a break this year, can he. 0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:33.480 Hayden's debut album is gathering dust. Motown's not releasing it, 0:13:33.520 --> 0:13:36.240 and because he's under contract, nobody else can release it. 0:13:36.679 --> 0:13:40.000 So Hayden is in a holding pattern. He's in Hollywood, 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:43.240 collecting a stipend, playing golf, starting to drink a little. 0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:47.439 Like his album, He's just sitting there waiting, even. 0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:49.600 Just trying to find some side projects for me to do. 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:52.240 And at this point, you know, we're becoming like brothers. 0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:54.280 We're really tight because we've kind of been through the 0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:57.240 war together. And I think in his defense, you know, 0:13:57.480 --> 0:14:02.319 he was pushing this Midwest stern white kid and era 0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:04.920 where you know, like you know, there was no cross 0:14:04.920 --> 0:14:07.640 pollination of like music, and he's trying to figure out 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:10.360 his way and I'm hammering him like, dude, I'm ready 0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:13.440 to go. And through all that, I think we're really close. 0:14:14.040 --> 0:14:16.120 But you know, it was like it was like almost 0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:18.319 it was a year of just you know, I mean, 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:20.080 I got really good at golf, right, I played a 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:23.480 lot of golf. I mean that year of not doing 0:14:23.520 --> 0:14:25.800 anything and get twenty five hundred bucks a month is 0:14:26.160 --> 0:14:28.040 you know for a twenty year old kid, it's not 0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:31.160 bad when you're living at home. Bad, No, not bad. 0:14:31.280 --> 0:14:34.160 So yeah, so I was just put on hold. But 0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:36.720 I was still trying to, like I really wanted to 0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:40.280 because I had gotten the la bug now, right, So 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:42.240 I'm like, now, you know, before it was like I 0:14:42.360 --> 0:14:44.080 just want to go sing. But then you know, I've 0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:45.880 seen some pockets of fame, and I'm like, you know, 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:47.320 being famous wouldn't be terrible. 0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:51.360 Hayden was getting frustrated his college years had passed him by, 0:14:52.080 --> 0:14:55.600 his hopes had been raised and then dashed too many times. 0:14:56.160 --> 0:14:57.080 Something had to give. 0:14:57.520 --> 0:14:59.600 We did a demo and then we we ended up 0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:01.920 doing a couple of other songs outside of what he 0:15:02.000 --> 0:15:04.880 was having us to do, and eventually we got to 0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:07.120 deal with Columbia. That was out, you know, that was 0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:09.240 not a part of Michael Bibbins at all. And that's 0:15:09.280 --> 0:15:13.760 when our relationship just it ended. And I've reached out 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:17.120 a few times, but how did you leave it? Well, 0:15:17.160 --> 0:15:19.720 so I you know, at the time we had hired 0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:23.080 an attorney. He called Mike and it was like breaking 0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:25.520 up with your It was like the breakup, you know. 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:28.040 It was like, hey, I'm going to sign with Columbia, 0:15:28.040 --> 0:15:30.440 I'm not going to view with fIF ten. And it 0:15:30.480 --> 0:15:32.440 was like it was sad, you know. I mean I 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:34.840 cried a little bit after that, but you know, look, 0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:38.080 I was I had probably been on hold for you know, 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:40.760 I had put my life in Mike's hands from the 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:43.720 time I was eighteen to now we're talking. It was 0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:47.280 probably twenty three. So at some point I got to say, 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:48.280 am I going to continue? 0:15:48.320 --> 0:15:48.480 You know? 0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:51.120 And I didn't. I couldn't really see the forest through 0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:53.680 the trees. I had to make a tough decision for 0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:56.320 myself and what I thought was best. I kind of 0:15:56.360 --> 0:15:59.560 moved on. And you know, my attorney was like, that 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:03.680 was unbelievable. He's like, you two grown men. It just 0:16:03.760 --> 0:16:06.440 broke up, like two heterosexual males just broke up. 0:16:06.680 --> 0:16:08.760 Now I can't help but notice, as Hayden says this, 0:16:08.920 --> 0:16:12.280 that he's not angry. There don't seem to be any lingering, 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:15.520 hard feelings. It may have been a heterosexual breakup, but 0:16:15.800 --> 0:16:19.320 as with a vet, it's pretty obvious Hayden still loves 0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:24.680 Michael Bivens. The music world turned upside down in nineteen 0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:27.840 ninety one as the smooth listen at work sounds of 0:16:27.920 --> 0:16:31.200 Top forty radio gave way to alternative and hip hop. 0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:33.560 For some more insight on that, I turned to my 0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:37.280 friend Chris Malanfy. Now, Chris is a music critic, a 0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:40.440 pop chart analyst, the host of the podcast Hit Parade, 0:16:40.760 --> 0:16:43.240 But back in ninety one, he was an obsessive just 0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:45.760 like me. Who were you nineteen ninety one? 0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:52.320 Let's see a pop fan who also cared about hip 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:56.880 hop and alternative music. A writer for my college music magazine, 0:16:57.680 --> 0:17:00.320 A guy who read Billboard every week, because that's the 0:17:00.360 --> 0:17:02.720 kind of nerd I am. I've been that nerd since 0:17:02.800 --> 0:17:06.119 the mid to late eighties, so that's made great. 0:17:06.680 --> 0:17:08.480 I love it. And now look at. 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:12.120 You, yeah and my Bowie T shirt. Fifty years old. 0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:16.280 I knew the pop music world that's sudden impact. Evtnicole 0:17:16.320 --> 0:17:19.760 Brown and Hayden we're trying to break into really changed 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:22.400 around this time. But I hadn't really thought about how 0:17:22.440 --> 0:17:24.560 that all happened until I got a hold of Chris. 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:27.840 It all boils down to a Barcode scanner. 0:17:28.240 --> 0:17:31.000 Ninety one is the year. It's the BCAD moment of 0:17:31.080 --> 0:17:33.680 chart following because it's the year of sound scan. It's 0:17:33.720 --> 0:17:36.040 the year that SoundScan is added to the album chart 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:39.879 in May, the Hot one hundred in November, and it 0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:43.600 utterly changes our understanding of how songs and albums become hits. 0:17:43.920 --> 0:17:48.080 Billboard Magazine is a music industry trade publication whose album 0:17:48.240 --> 0:17:51.679 and singles charts are the gold standard. It's the singles 0:17:51.760 --> 0:17:54.600 chart Casey Caseum used for American Top forty. That's how 0:17:54.680 --> 0:17:57.880 legit it is, and starting in nineteen ninety one, they 0:17:57.960 --> 0:18:02.240 began using Nielsen SoundScan data collected from scanners at record 0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:05.760 store cash registers. You bought a record, the person behind 0:18:05.760 --> 0:18:08.159 the counter wave the wand thing at it, it went boop. 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:11.240 That information went to Nielsen, who sold it to Billboard, 0:18:11.440 --> 0:18:14.720 and that's how they compiled the sales chart, which makes sense. 0:18:15.240 --> 0:18:16.960 It makes so much sense you kind of have to 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:18.960 ask what had we been doing. 0:18:19.760 --> 0:18:24.760 We had our Billboard had been phoning and faxing retailers 0:18:24.840 --> 0:18:27.960 and radio programmers to ask them, give me your top 0:18:28.040 --> 0:18:30.840 thirty records this week or whatever, and then they would 0:18:30.920 --> 0:18:33.640 rank them. It wasn't as if the system was devoid 0:18:33.640 --> 0:18:37.560 of data, but it was very imprecise and frankly fudgeable data. 0:18:37.600 --> 0:18:40.440 Fudgeable is my favorite adjective for it, because it suggests 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:44.040 all sorts of nefariousness without actually coming out and saying it. 0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:44.480 So. 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:47.359 Up until this point, the album and singles charts that 0:18:47.520 --> 0:18:51.719 I had grown up following were tabulated by like rumor. 0:18:52.440 --> 0:18:55.560 And what it did was it taught us that the 0:18:55.640 --> 0:18:59.520 patterns that we had been assuming albums and singles would 0:18:59.520 --> 0:19:03.000 follow were basically all wrong. The simple way I like 0:19:03.040 --> 0:19:05.720 to say it is albums open like movies. We used 0:19:05.720 --> 0:19:07.320 to think that an album would open somewhere in the 0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:09.320 middle of the chart and then rise to number one 0:19:09.400 --> 0:19:13.000 or number five or whatever. An album's biggest week is 0:19:13.040 --> 0:19:17.119 its first week, and we only learned that through SoundScan. 0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:20.160 Prior to nineteen ninety one, there'd only ever been six 0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:23.440 number one debuts in the history of the album chart 0:19:23.520 --> 0:19:26.480 in like forty years. And I can name him off 0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:28.800 the top of my head, Please Don't two by Elton John, 0:19:28.840 --> 0:19:31.640 one by Stevie Wonder, one by Bruce Springsteen, one by 0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:38.000 Whitney Houston, and won by Michael Jackson. And after sound scan, 0:19:38.720 --> 0:19:41.679 the first one was by skid Row, right right. Not 0:19:41.800 --> 0:19:43.560 to disparage skid Row, they were at the peak of 0:19:43.600 --> 0:19:44.560 their popularity, but. 0:19:44.480 --> 0:19:48.800 Skien were clearly skid Row if you want, like they 0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:51.359 were big for hair metal in nineteen ninety one, but 0:19:51.560 --> 0:19:54.080 like they were not even the biggest hair metal band 0:19:54.119 --> 0:19:54.680 at the time. 0:19:55.000 --> 0:19:57.840 Yet they were the first Scouts sound scan, excuse me, 0:19:57.920 --> 0:20:00.800 the first act in the sound scan era to debut 0:20:00.840 --> 0:20:02.879 at number one on the album chart. They that's a 0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:05.000 record nobody can ever take away from them. 0:20:05.119 --> 0:20:07.800 When skid Row debuts at number one with a record 0:20:07.840 --> 0:20:09.879 that doesn't even have a single on the radio. 0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:14.359 You know, the culture is changing, and what it's told 0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:16.920 you right away is, oh, this is not special anymore. 0:20:16.960 --> 0:20:19.359 This is just going to keep happening week after week. 0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:23.080 And now if you look at the album chart most weeks, 0:20:23.320 --> 0:20:25.080 you know, call it thirty to forty weeks out of 0:20:25.119 --> 0:20:28.520 a fifty two week year. The new number one album 0:20:28.800 --> 0:20:32.919 is a debut. It's a brand new album because it 0:20:32.960 --> 0:20:35.720 opens like a box office hit. It opens like a movie. Right, 0:20:35.800 --> 0:20:38.680 Avengers Endgame doesn't open at number ten and rise to 0:20:38.760 --> 0:20:41.840 number one. Avengers Endgame starts at number one and then 0:20:42.119 --> 0:20:43.280 gradually drifts down. 0:20:43.520 --> 0:20:47.080 That's how albums open to singles charts the top forty. 0:20:47.280 --> 0:20:49.439 You know what Casey Casem used to do. They're a 0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:53.280 combination of record sales and radio airplay. And in nineteen 0:20:53.320 --> 0:20:57.520 ninety one, Nielsen also debuted Broadcast Data Systems, an early 0:20:57.600 --> 0:21:00.520 version of Shazam that listened to and report did which 0:21:00.560 --> 0:21:04.840 songs radio stations were actually playing. Previously, Billboard had just 0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:07.600 had to take the word of record stores and radio stations, 0:21:07.800 --> 0:21:11.600 but now they had the real raw data. The big 0:21:11.640 --> 0:21:16.440 sound just before the change was adult contemporary Michael Bolton, Wilson, Phillips, 0:21:16.520 --> 0:21:19.760 Amy Grant, which just keep her song Baby Baby in 0:21:19.800 --> 0:21:21.560 the back of your mind for later in this series. 0:21:21.880 --> 0:21:23.600 You might want to go to YouTube and watch the video. 0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:26.320 That's all I'm gonna say. It's possible, and I'm not 0:21:26.359 --> 0:21:30.000 making accusations here. I'm just saying it's possible that the 0:21:30.040 --> 0:21:33.240 middle aged white men who ran radio stations and owned 0:21:33.280 --> 0:21:37.119 record stores might maybe have over represented the middle of 0:21:37.160 --> 0:21:40.480 the road white adult contemporary artists that they were comfortable with. 0:21:41.359 --> 0:21:45.639 Like Chris says, it was fudgeable until it wasn't. The 0:21:45.680 --> 0:21:49.160 pop charts had reflected what record stores and radio stations 0:21:49.200 --> 0:21:52.000 said people were buying and listening to. In ninety one, 0:21:52.280 --> 0:21:55.199 they began to reflect what people were actually buying and 0:21:55.240 --> 0:21:59.359 listening to. How then did the pop charts start sounding different? 0:21:59.680 --> 0:22:04.880 I mean, you're already you're already seeing hip hop make 0:22:04.920 --> 0:22:07.880 a run at the charts prior to sound scan, right, 0:22:08.320 --> 0:22:12.200 You've already seen everybody from mc hammer to Vanilla Ice 0:22:12.880 --> 0:22:16.120 to Marky Mark and the Funky Bunch, you know, make 0:22:16.160 --> 0:22:18.480 a run. Tone Lok in nineteen eighty nine got a 0:22:18.480 --> 0:22:21.560 couple of top three hits. But what changes is that 0:22:21.680 --> 0:22:24.919 now it's much more plausible that rap can. 0:22:24.800 --> 0:22:26.720 Top the Hot one hundred, the. 0:22:26.840 --> 0:22:31.159 Very first this is not a terribly hardcore street rap record, 0:22:31.160 --> 0:22:33.479 but the very first number one on the Hot one 0:22:33.600 --> 0:22:36.960 hundred the week they flipped the switch towards SoundScan and 0:22:37.000 --> 0:22:40.560 BDS is set a drift on Memory Bliss by PM Dawn. 0:22:41.680 --> 0:22:45.159 That's a very poppy, catchy, mainstream friendly record, which was 0:22:45.200 --> 0:22:47.919 already in the top five before they flipped the switch, 0:22:48.320 --> 0:22:50.680 but by the following summer baby got back by Sir 0:22:50.720 --> 0:22:53.080 mix a lot. It's hard to picture that record spending 0:22:53.080 --> 0:22:57.280 five weeks at number one without sound scan accurately itallying 0:22:57.359 --> 0:23:02.280 sales and airplay, and then you know, within a few years, 0:23:02.440 --> 0:23:06.399 Tupac is scoring, you know, a number one hit. You know, 0:23:06.720 --> 0:23:09.919 Puff Daddy is scoring number one hits. Like all of 0:23:09.960 --> 0:23:12.280 that is really you know, Bone Thugs and Harmony score 0:23:12.280 --> 0:23:15.160 a number one hit. All of that's kind of unimaginable 0:23:15.200 --> 0:23:18.320 before SoundScan. Sound scan makes that plausible. 0:23:18.960 --> 0:23:21.840 Like Chris, I was in college that winter when Nirvana's 0:23:21.880 --> 0:23:26.280 never Mind went to number one. It was astonishing something 0:23:26.359 --> 0:23:31.320 so strange and so seemingly unradio friendly becoming an actual hit. 0:23:32.119 --> 0:23:34.960 It was a sea change. I watched it happen, but 0:23:35.000 --> 0:23:37.439 it wasn't until just now talking to Chris that I 0:23:37.480 --> 0:23:38.879 thought about how it happened. 0:23:39.440 --> 0:23:43.280 So, like, I mean, you know the Nevermind phenomenon, right, 0:23:43.320 --> 0:23:46.480 that's unimaginable without sound scan. That's more on the album 0:23:46.600 --> 0:23:48.560 chart than the singles chart. Although Smells like teen Spirit 0:23:48.640 --> 0:23:50.720 is a top ten hit, it goes to number six. 0:23:51.119 --> 0:23:52.960 Just breaking in here really quickly to tell you, I 0:23:52.960 --> 0:23:55.720 could talk to Chris malanfe about what songs peaked at 0:23:55.720 --> 0:23:58.280 what position on the chart all day long, and for 0:23:58.480 --> 0:24:00.680 all of the terrible things the Internet that has done, 0:24:00.840 --> 0:24:03.480 I am so glad it has facilitated this conversation. 0:24:04.160 --> 0:24:08.120 But get this, but that fabled moment that everybody talks 0:24:08.160 --> 0:24:12.600 about where Nevermind knocks out Michael Jackson's dangerous that is 0:24:13.240 --> 0:24:15.320 entirely due to SoundScan. I actually did a whole Hip 0:24:15.320 --> 0:24:17.800 Parade episode about this moment, because it's actually a widely 0:24:17.880 --> 0:24:22.600 understood moment. According to Billboard's chart dating system, it happened 0:24:22.600 --> 0:24:25.400 two weeks into January nineteen ninety two. The honest truth 0:24:25.480 --> 0:24:27.959 is that because there's a lag between when Billboard collects 0:24:28.000 --> 0:24:30.760 its data and when they date their charts, what really 0:24:30.800 --> 0:24:33.520 happened is that basically all of the teenagers who got 0:24:33.840 --> 0:24:36.600 Dangerous or some other album for Christmas went to the 0:24:36.600 --> 0:24:38.760 record store and either returned it or used their gift 0:24:38.800 --> 0:24:41.320 cards to buy never Mind. Because the data that was 0:24:41.320 --> 0:24:43.880 collected the week that never Mind went to number one 0:24:44.160 --> 0:24:47.320 was all collected basically like Boxing Day through New Year's 0:24:47.880 --> 0:24:49.880 So basically that week that all the kids are home 0:24:49.920 --> 0:24:54.080 from school, they at voting with their dollars. 0:24:54.000 --> 0:24:57.400 Teenage rebellion by way of gift card. I love it. 0:24:58.080 --> 0:24:59.800 But what we were learning was that the young people 0:24:59.800 --> 0:25:02.679 with disposable income who buy records and drive trends and 0:25:02.720 --> 0:25:05.119 dictate what gets played on the radio, we're going for 0:25:05.160 --> 0:25:08.600 something harder and heavier than what Hayden and Sudden Impact 0:25:08.720 --> 0:25:11.840 slash white guys. We're trying to make the market for 0:25:11.920 --> 0:25:13.919 a blue eyed soul singer or a boy band who 0:25:14.000 --> 0:25:16.040 looks a little like New Kids on the Block was 0:25:16.119 --> 0:25:18.520 less friendly than it seened just a few months before. 0:25:19.080 --> 0:25:21.240 But let's talk about Michael Bivens and how he found 0:25:21.320 --> 0:25:24.480 himself in the position to sign all these acts. Bivin's 0:25:24.480 --> 0:25:27.919 story as a performer begins years before this with new addition, 0:25:28.440 --> 0:25:30.680 but his time as a record mobile begins in the 0:25:30.720 --> 0:25:40.080 spring of nineteen ninety with one song. Do you remember 0:25:40.119 --> 0:25:42.760 hearing the song Poison for the first time. This would 0:25:42.760 --> 0:25:44.240 have been at the end of our freshman year. 0:25:44.920 --> 0:25:49.160 I probably was working a shift at my campus job, 0:25:49.200 --> 0:25:53.120 which was the Durfy Sweet Shop at Yale in New Haven, Connecticut, 0:25:53.800 --> 0:25:57.480 and I'm pretty sure that that's where I heard Poison 0:25:57.520 --> 0:25:59.960 for the first time. And that record is just catch 0:26:00.160 --> 0:26:03.439 as hell and it leaps out of the speakers like 0:26:03.440 --> 0:26:04.240 a rap record. 0:26:04.480 --> 0:26:06.840 Poison sounded like nothing that had been played on Top 0:26:06.880 --> 0:26:10.520 forty radio before. Bell Bivdevou described their sound as. 0:26:10.320 --> 0:26:12.720 Mentally hip hop smoothed out on the R and B 0:26:12.880 --> 0:26:15.440 tip with a pop feel appealed to it. 0:26:15.440 --> 0:26:18.920 It's a mouthful, but it's accurate. And then after Poison, 0:26:19.160 --> 0:26:22.280 do Me, a song so filthy you couldn't believe you 0:26:22.280 --> 0:26:24.840 were hearing it on the radio in the daytime. 0:26:29.960 --> 0:26:32.399 And the fact that Doomy came right after, and Doomy 0:26:32.520 --> 0:26:36.359 was just as huge, and there was I remember, you know, 0:26:36.400 --> 0:26:39.720 I was already a Billboard reader in college, and there 0:26:39.720 --> 0:26:43.040 were radio programmers kind of fretting a little bit about 0:26:43.119 --> 0:26:47.240 do Me, because like, can we play this record during 0:26:47.320 --> 0:26:50.400 you know, sort of the homework hour, The hour when 0:26:50.440 --> 0:26:53.760 the really young kids are listening, you know, like do 0:26:53.840 --> 0:26:54.400 they know what? 0:26:54.560 --> 0:26:54.800 You know? 0:26:55.880 --> 0:26:58.199 Is he doing her hair? I remember this quote in 0:26:58.200 --> 0:27:01.600 a Billboard story of like a radio like, you know, 0:27:01.680 --> 0:27:04.439 I'm playing the regular version and we haven't done anything 0:27:04.480 --> 0:27:06.040 to it because they don't actually curse in it. But 0:27:06.080 --> 0:27:09.040 it's pretty filthy, you know, and yet they were playing it, 0:27:09.119 --> 0:27:09.359 you know. 0:27:09.520 --> 0:27:13.040 But it was that kind of PG thirteen content, that 0:27:13.240 --> 0:27:16.240 hip hop inflected production, that mixture of pop and R 0:27:16.280 --> 0:27:18.200 and B that mentally. 0:27:17.920 --> 0:27:21.479 Hip hop smoothed out on the R and b's hit 0:27:21.560 --> 0:27:23.000 when a Pop Fail Appeal. 0:27:23.160 --> 0:27:26.000 Yeah, that that made Motown take notice. 0:27:26.320 --> 0:27:29.960 I think that Michael Bivens. But the reason he got 0:27:29.960 --> 0:27:32.480 away with, you know, playing with house money as it were, 0:27:33.080 --> 0:27:35.600 was that a he had had an enormous hit, and 0:27:35.680 --> 0:27:39.159 b he had he was helping the labels solve a 0:27:39.240 --> 0:27:40.160 problem they were having. 0:27:40.200 --> 0:27:40.359 You know. 0:27:40.400 --> 0:27:42.119 My most recent episode of Hip Parade, the one that 0:27:42.160 --> 0:27:44.040 just came out a couple weeks ago, was about Millie Vanilly, 0:27:44.640 --> 0:27:46.600 And one of the arguments I make about Milli Vanilly 0:27:46.640 --> 0:27:50.240 was that whether you know, fraudulent as they were, they 0:27:50.240 --> 0:27:54.199 were important to the hybridization of rap and pop on 0:27:54.320 --> 0:27:56.800 top forty Radio in nineteen eighty nine and ninety They 0:27:56.800 --> 0:28:00.360 actually even appeared on Billboard's first hot rap single, art 0:28:00.880 --> 0:28:03.240 like That. That's a little remembered fact between like Kid 0:28:03.240 --> 0:28:06.320 and Play and rob Bas and DJ Easy Rock Like, 0:28:06.359 --> 0:28:09.320 they had enough cred for at least a single or 0:28:09.320 --> 0:28:13.160 two to appear on the rap single stret And what 0:28:13.520 --> 0:28:16.040 the problem that Bell biv Devou were solving by ninety 0:28:16.160 --> 0:28:18.919 was that they were much more authentic sounding. Yet they 0:28:18.960 --> 0:28:21.560 came out of what was previously a boy band. So 0:28:21.640 --> 0:28:24.600 they had pop, but they had hip hop street cred, 0:28:25.280 --> 0:28:28.080 and they they you know, nobody was accusing Bell biv 0:28:28.160 --> 0:28:33.280 Devot of being phony, not many anyway, and and so 0:28:33.560 --> 0:28:37.160 it sounded authentically hip hop, and yet it was smooth 0:28:37.240 --> 0:28:40.120 like pop. And so if I'm a record executive in 0:28:40.200 --> 0:28:42.480 ninety ninety one, I'm like, if Michael Bivens wants to 0:28:42.520 --> 0:28:46.080 start shepherding other acts and get me another Bel Bivdavot, Like, 0:28:46.240 --> 0:28:47.040 I'm all ears. 0:28:47.360 --> 0:28:49.480 You know a thing I really should have known is 0:28:49.520 --> 0:28:51.960 that somewhere in New Haven, Connecticut, a twenty year old 0:28:52.040 --> 0:28:55.480 Chrisma Lanfe was watching that Motown Philly video and clocking 0:28:55.600 --> 0:28:56.240 the same thing. 0:28:56.120 --> 0:29:00.320 I was and and what's funny about Motown f Philly 0:29:00.360 --> 0:29:04.320 when when Boys to Men show up? I remember being 0:29:04.360 --> 0:29:06.400 slightly cynical about Boys to Men, even though I love 0:29:06.440 --> 0:29:09.160 to Motown Philly the song because I'm like, this video 0:29:09.280 --> 0:29:11.640 is just one long branding exercise and. 0:29:11.560 --> 0:29:15.360 It's it's their first single, and it mentions other artists. 0:29:15.840 --> 0:29:20.240 It mentions ABC and BBD, which is like, it's it's 0:29:20.960 --> 0:29:25.840 big of them. Yeah, you know, include other like promos 0:29:25.880 --> 0:29:27.800 for other artists in their debut single. 0:29:28.120 --> 0:29:30.320 I guess, or it's or it's the price of fame, 0:29:30.440 --> 0:29:33.040 you know, the ticket for entry, right is that Michael 0:29:33.040 --> 0:29:35.040 Bivens says, I'll record you guys, but you got to 0:29:35.080 --> 0:29:37.240 promote my other acts while you're there. 0:29:37.560 --> 0:29:41.440 Yeah. And then in the video, as we're getting our 0:29:41.480 --> 0:29:45.200 family portraits taken old timey style with the cape and 0:29:45.200 --> 0:29:49.800 the the thing that you hold, we meet five young 0:29:49.840 --> 0:29:55.400 men and five white shirts and five neckties called Sudden Impact, 0:29:55.680 --> 0:29:59.960 and that's the first and last time we see them, right, right, 0:30:00.840 --> 0:30:04.040 do you remember that moment? Like, do you remember seeing it? 0:30:04.040 --> 0:30:05.320 Do you remember it? In real time? 0:30:05.880 --> 0:30:08.480 All I remember about it, if I'm being honest, to 0:30:08.560 --> 0:30:11.760 reiterate something I said a little while ago. Is this 0:30:11.800 --> 0:30:14.960 added to my cynicism because okay, correct me if I'm wrong. 0:30:14.960 --> 0:30:21.240 By the time Motown Philly hit or dropped, another bad 0:30:21.240 --> 0:30:24.640 creation had at least had a hit or two playground 0:30:24.680 --> 0:30:29.040 in Aisha Aisha. I think Ayisha was first. Aa was Yeah, yeah, 0:30:29.040 --> 0:30:32.080 and they were both top ten hits, So like, okay, 0:30:32.120 --> 0:30:34.120 at least they're promoting an act that's actually had a 0:30:34.120 --> 0:30:37.240 couple hits in BBD the prior year had been huge. 0:30:37.680 --> 0:30:42.120 But like, I'm watching this, you know, Michael Bibvens brand extension, 0:30:42.800 --> 0:30:45.360 and I'm sort of like, well, this is a little cheesy, 0:30:45.480 --> 0:30:47.520 you know, like he's already promoting an act that doesn't 0:30:47.520 --> 0:30:52.680 exist yet. I remembered thinking, like, you know, fair play 0:30:52.680 --> 0:30:55.200 to Michael Bibvens, but this is really cheesy, you know, like, 0:30:55.800 --> 0:30:57.120 don't hate the player, hate the game. 0:30:57.160 --> 0:31:00.200 Except that phrase didn't exist in nineteen ninety one. Glad 0:31:00.240 --> 0:31:04.080 we should have invented it. Yeah, I know. It is 0:31:04.200 --> 0:31:07.200 an introduction to the Michael Bivens extended cinematic. 0:31:06.880 --> 0:31:09.880 Universe, right, another thing that didn't exist in nineteen ninety one, 0:31:09.920 --> 0:31:10.800 But that's exactly it. 0:31:10.960 --> 0:31:14.160 Yeah, let's talk about Chris for a minute. He's taken 0:31:14.200 --> 0:31:16.600 his obsessions and made a career out of them, and 0:31:16.640 --> 0:31:19.720 so have I. But neither of those careers even existed 0:31:19.760 --> 0:31:23.920 when we were twenty. Chris in nineteen ninety one, where 0:31:24.440 --> 0:31:26.680 did you see yourself at fifty? 0:31:28.640 --> 0:31:29.120 I'm not sure. 0:31:29.240 --> 0:31:30.680 Do you have a clear idea of where you wanted 0:31:30.680 --> 0:31:30.920 to go? 0:31:31.120 --> 0:31:32.680 I mean, the reason I can't answer this from the 0:31:32.760 --> 0:31:34.960 vantage point of nineteen ninety one. I've often said this 0:31:35.040 --> 0:31:36.920 is that a lot of things had to be invented 0:31:37.360 --> 0:31:40.719 for me to have this particular career. Like, right through 0:31:40.760 --> 0:31:43.720 the nineties, I was writing record reviews for CMJ, making 0:31:44.400 --> 0:31:47.520 beer money to do that, while I had a a 0:31:47.760 --> 0:31:51.640 completely separate day job. But like blogging had to be invented, 0:31:52.200 --> 0:31:56.440 podcasts had to be invented, The whole ecosystem of online 0:31:56.480 --> 0:32:00.480 journalism had to be invented. And then I discovered, Oh so, actually, 0:32:00.520 --> 0:32:03.760 if you write about your nerdy obsession, your nerdy passion 0:32:03.840 --> 0:32:06.640 about the charts and dissect them and you know, write 0:32:06.680 --> 0:32:09.600 like a critic but analyze the charts, people will want 0:32:09.640 --> 0:32:12.160 to read that. But that didn't really catch on until 0:32:12.160 --> 0:32:16.400 the late aughts and tends. So, yeah, are you happy? 0:32:16.840 --> 0:32:20.479 I mean, I'm real happy with how this whole thing's going. Yeah, 0:32:20.920 --> 0:32:25.719 like I said, my brainstorm, My one brainstorm was I 0:32:25.760 --> 0:32:30.280 realized that there were critics who didn't really understand how 0:32:30.280 --> 0:32:33.120 the charts worked, and there were chart analysts who didn't 0:32:33.120 --> 0:32:35.840 write like critics. And so if you could blend the two, 0:32:36.040 --> 0:32:39.600 write like a critic but understand how the charts work, 0:32:39.760 --> 0:32:41.680 just because out of my own passion I've been following 0:32:41.720 --> 0:32:45.000 the charts since the early to mid eighties, that could 0:32:45.040 --> 0:32:47.920 be something. And yeah, and so what's great is that, 0:32:48.000 --> 0:32:50.640 you know, when folks like you want somebody to talk 0:32:50.720 --> 0:32:53.920 at a minutiaal level, like you and I just had 0:32:54.360 --> 0:32:57.160 about how the charts function, but then placing it in 0:32:57.200 --> 0:33:00.720 a cultural context, folks generally come to me, which is great. 0:33:00.800 --> 0:33:02.040 I love playing that role. 0:33:02.560 --> 0:33:05.200 So there's today's lesson kids. That thing you love more 0:33:05.240 --> 0:33:07.960 than anything, that thing you know more about than anyone, 0:33:08.520 --> 0:33:11.719 keep exploring it, keep learning about it. There's a perfect 0:33:11.800 --> 0:33:13.760 job for you out there. You're just gonna have to 0:33:13.800 --> 0:33:16.640 invent it. But back in the nineties, especially if you 0:33:16.640 --> 0:33:19.480 wanted to be a pop star, you needed other people's help. 0:33:20.000 --> 0:33:23.160 Powerful people could make you and they could break you. 0:33:34.480 --> 0:33:36.680 When we left Hayden, he had just broken up with 0:33:36.720 --> 0:33:39.840 Michael Bivens and biv ten Records. After years of waiting 0:33:39.840 --> 0:33:42.520 for his moment, he got a new manager and became 0:33:42.520 --> 0:33:43.520 a part of a new group. 0:33:43.880 --> 0:33:48.200 He ran into three guys from New Jersey who were 0:33:48.240 --> 0:33:52.080 looking for a lead singer, and we ended up linking up. 0:33:53.000 --> 0:33:56.560 We got together, we made a demo, and we ended 0:33:56.600 --> 0:33:59.040 up leaving Michael Bivens, which I think to this day, 0:33:59.080 --> 0:34:01.040 you know him and I had it since then, so 0:34:01.360 --> 0:34:03.000 it was it was you know him and I was. 0:34:03.160 --> 0:34:05.760 It was almost like a divorce. But that group was 0:34:05.800 --> 0:34:06.720 called Signature. 0:34:07.120 --> 0:34:10.279 Signature is of course spelled as yg NA t U 0:34:10.360 --> 0:34:12.080 r E. I don't know what was going on in 0:34:12.120 --> 0:34:15.640 the nineties with the creative spellings, but Signature's manager was 0:34:15.640 --> 0:34:17.680 about to become a big deal in his own right 0:34:17.760 --> 0:34:19.680 thanks to a daughter who you might have heard of. 0:34:19.760 --> 0:34:21.800 Beyonce's dad. Matthews was our manager. 0:34:22.120 --> 0:34:26.480 Yeah you heard him, Yeah, Beyonce's dad. And it's nineteen 0:34:26.560 --> 0:34:30.920 ninety eight, Destiny's Child is taking off and those Signature 0:34:31.000 --> 0:34:33.239 had begun as a vocal group in the style of 0:34:33.280 --> 0:34:35.279 the sexy R and B groups of the time like 0:34:35.400 --> 0:34:39.040 Jo Deasy and Drew Hill. Matthew Knowles noticed a change 0:34:39.040 --> 0:34:40.560 in the atmosphere. 0:34:40.040 --> 0:34:42.719 When Destiny's Child at the time went on tour with 0:34:42.840 --> 0:34:43.680 Back three Boys. 0:34:44.560 --> 0:34:46.000 He really changed the direction, right. 0:34:46.080 --> 0:34:48.480 Yeah, he saw how good Back three Boys did, and 0:34:48.520 --> 0:34:50.560 I think he saw dollar sign that he kind of 0:34:50.640 --> 0:34:53.000 changed the direction of kind of what we were doing. 0:34:53.040 --> 0:34:55.719 So we were really more of a real R and 0:34:55.760 --> 0:34:58.279 B group. So we actually were signed to the Urban 0:34:58.320 --> 0:35:01.919 Division of Columbia REQ. So it was right around there, 0:35:01.960 --> 0:35:04.719 you know, Carson Daily TRL. I mean we So our 0:35:04.760 --> 0:35:08.520 first tour was we were the opening act for Christina Aguilera. 0:35:08.640 --> 0:35:11.279 It was Christina Aguilera Destiny Shout. There was another group. 0:35:11.280 --> 0:35:12.719 We were like the pre opening act. 0:35:12.840 --> 0:35:15.399 Right, Just gonna interject here real quick and tell you 0:35:15.440 --> 0:35:19.000 the other group was sole decision. This story just got 0:35:19.040 --> 0:35:22.520 so nineteen ninety nine. My tips frosted themselves. 0:35:22.840 --> 0:35:25.160 We didn't ride it toward us, but we were really 0:35:25.200 --> 0:35:28.440 close with Destiny's Child. We really we wrote the coattails 0:35:28.480 --> 0:35:31.759 of their success because Fiata's dad was our manager. So 0:35:31.800 --> 0:35:34.560 we were doing a mall tour and we were doing 0:35:34.640 --> 0:35:37.080 like we were doing a teen people mall tour with them, 0:35:37.080 --> 0:35:39.040 and then we were doing like outdoor arenas and then 0:35:39.040 --> 0:35:43.000 we went overseas to London and Ireland and did some 0:35:43.040 --> 0:35:43.799 stuff over there. 0:35:44.120 --> 0:35:46.520 But this chapter in Hayden's career was the same as 0:35:46.560 --> 0:35:49.319 the last, more waiting for the record label to push 0:35:49.400 --> 0:35:52.439 the album, more trying to get his manager's attention, while 0:35:52.560 --> 0:35:55.640 someone else became a superstar of it. This time it 0:35:55.680 --> 0:35:58.799 was Beyonce. When Hayden sang for Michael Bivens in that 0:35:58.880 --> 0:36:02.320 hotel lobby, he was a now he was twenty seven. 0:36:02.680 --> 0:36:04.920 We were on tour, we were doing we were singing 0:36:04.960 --> 0:36:07.600 with Deptony's Child. You know, we had done this tour, 0:36:07.719 --> 0:36:10.399 we had gone to Europe, we had come back, our 0:36:10.440 --> 0:36:13.560 album still wasn't being released. I had noticed what I 0:36:13.560 --> 0:36:17.160 would say is some shady stuff from Matthew Knowles. I 0:36:17.280 --> 0:36:18.840 was seeing some things that I was like, you know, 0:36:18.880 --> 0:36:21.160 I don't like not taking money from us because we 0:36:21.160 --> 0:36:23.840 weren't making money, but like, what's going on? And you know, 0:36:23.960 --> 0:36:26.960 I ended up approaching it. First. I talked to the 0:36:26.960 --> 0:36:29.280 guys in the group and said, listen, I'm I'm I'm done. 0:36:29.400 --> 0:36:32.279 Like this is two years the album's not released, Like 0:36:32.640 --> 0:36:34.759 what are they doing with us? And I said, look, 0:36:34.760 --> 0:36:37.839 here's the deal. I'm I'm, I'm going solo, like I'm 0:36:37.840 --> 0:36:39.640 going to go do my solo thing. I've talked to 0:36:39.719 --> 0:36:42.000 our attorney. He's like, hey, then I got five record 0:36:42.080 --> 0:36:44.160 labels that will sign you tomorrow. Ready, you know. And 0:36:44.239 --> 0:36:47.520 I said, guys, the minute I make it, I'll put 0:36:47.560 --> 0:36:51.920 you on. So I approached Matthew. That conversation did not 0:36:52.040 --> 0:36:54.400 go well. It wasn't life the Michael business thing. It 0:36:54.440 --> 0:36:56.960 just wasn't in a good conversation. I got on a plane, 0:36:57.160 --> 0:36:59.279 I flew home. I was set to go to New 0:36:59.320 --> 0:37:02.800 York like the following weekend, and my attorney called and 0:37:02.920 --> 0:37:06.080 was like, dude, you're bunny like. Nobody's going to meet 0:37:06.120 --> 0:37:10.680 with you like you. There's there's some really bad rumors 0:37:10.719 --> 0:37:11.200 about you. 0:37:11.280 --> 0:37:13.640 And Matthew Knowles had a lot of power at this 0:37:13.719 --> 0:37:16.759 moment in time, with Destiny's Child blowing up, he had 0:37:16.800 --> 0:37:19.200 proven he could make you or break you. Just ask 0:37:19.440 --> 0:37:23.080 LaToya Luckett or Farah Franklin or Latavio Robertson, and those 0:37:23.120 --> 0:37:25.279 are the people he kicked out of Destiny's Child that 0:37:25.320 --> 0:37:28.400 we know about. We can't say for sure whether it 0:37:28.440 --> 0:37:31.320 was Matthew who started those rumors, but we can say 0:37:31.480 --> 0:37:34.240 they worked. Can I take it back? To that call 0:37:34.400 --> 0:37:38.280 with your lawyer where when he said, you know, nobody 0:37:38.320 --> 0:37:40.040 wants to take a meeting? What what did that feel? 0:37:40.080 --> 0:37:40.160 Like? 0:37:40.520 --> 0:37:45.200 Awful? Like everything? I mean it was. It was awful. 0:37:46.680 --> 0:37:49.359 It was terrible because that's that had been, that had 0:37:49.400 --> 0:37:52.560 become my identity, right. I mean I went from like, 0:37:52.719 --> 0:37:55.240 you know, I was like I lived in a small 0:37:55.239 --> 0:37:59.759 little community in between Akron and Cleveland, and Cleveland's not 0:37:59.800 --> 0:38:01.879 that big. When I came back from fifth ten, man, 0:38:01.920 --> 0:38:04.880 I mean I was like the shit, you know, like 0:38:05.120 --> 0:38:07.120 he had made it. Not many guys, you know, Lebron 0:38:07.239 --> 0:38:09.320 James made it, you know what I mean, James Ingram 0:38:09.320 --> 0:38:11.320 made it, but like nobody from my era, you know 0:38:11.360 --> 0:38:12.920 what I mean, Like I had made it. Like I 0:38:12.960 --> 0:38:15.640 had credibility with the urban crowd, with the you know, 0:38:15.680 --> 0:38:19.560 and I mean so yeah, man, my pride and ego, 0:38:19.840 --> 0:38:23.000 you know, that's what it was devastating. You know. Even 0:38:23.000 --> 0:38:24.560 my friends are like, dude, do you need to talk 0:38:24.600 --> 0:38:26.799 to someone? And I'm like, I'm good, But deep down, 0:38:27.000 --> 0:38:27.759 you know, it was like. 0:38:27.680 --> 0:38:30.279 It wasn't good. Hayden was nearly ten years into his 0:38:30.360 --> 0:38:33.680 music career and he was out of options. He stayed 0:38:33.680 --> 0:38:36.799 in Ohio. He got a job selling used cars. 0:38:37.040 --> 0:38:38.560 I went through like a you know, I mean, I 0:38:38.600 --> 0:38:41.839 went from playing even though you're the opening act right 0:38:41.960 --> 0:38:44.040 playing an Arenas to like I had to go sell 0:38:44.120 --> 0:38:46.480 cars and I live in a community where they're. 0:38:46.280 --> 0:38:47.200 Like, dude, what happened? 0:38:47.280 --> 0:38:50.400 And I just I would act like nothing was wrong. 0:38:50.480 --> 0:38:52.520 But it got it got pretty bad to me, so 0:38:52.600 --> 0:38:56.080 I ended up. You know, I started drinking a ton, 0:38:57.120 --> 0:39:01.000 just fell into like a really bad like drinking depression. 0:39:01.560 --> 0:39:05.920 Things go sideways in a million different ways for everyone. 0:39:06.120 --> 0:39:08.560 Yep, no matter what it is absolutely. 0:39:08.080 --> 0:39:10.319 That you set out to do in life, you know, 0:39:10.719 --> 0:39:15.480 jobs go away and plans change, there is a special 0:39:15.600 --> 0:39:18.600 kind of I don't know if shame is the word 0:39:18.960 --> 0:39:22.560 that the world makes you feel. If your plan was 0:39:22.600 --> 0:39:26.080 an artistic one. There is something about, you know, going 0:39:26.120 --> 0:39:28.880 back to that hometown after going to the big city 0:39:28.960 --> 0:39:32.120 to make your dream happen and having it not pan 0:39:32.280 --> 0:39:34.480 out the way that you had planned that can make 0:39:34.520 --> 0:39:38.080 you feel a different kind of way. 0:39:38.320 --> 0:39:41.400 Well yeah, I mean, you know, shame is Shame's pretty dangerous, right, Like, 0:39:41.480 --> 0:39:44.120 you know, you have guilt and shame, right, and you 0:39:44.160 --> 0:39:47.440 know you're guilty because you did something wrong, right, But 0:39:47.520 --> 0:39:50.560 shame is like the penance that you give yourself for 0:39:50.680 --> 0:39:53.520 doing something. So you know, people don't jump off bridges 0:39:53.560 --> 0:39:56.960 because they're guilty. They jump off bridges because they're filled 0:39:57.000 --> 0:39:59.600 with shame, and shame is like, you know, and that's 0:39:59.680 --> 0:40:03.200 I think you're exactly right. I think most of my friends, 0:40:03.320 --> 0:40:05.600 if I ask them, what are you really passionate about, 0:40:06.520 --> 0:40:09.359 they would say the Cleveland Browns, And I am too right. 0:40:09.400 --> 0:40:12.640 But it's not the same when you're passionate about something 0:40:12.840 --> 0:40:16.799 artistic people who are like working to you know, I mean, 0:40:16.800 --> 0:40:18.640 think about how many people you know who are like 0:40:19.320 --> 0:40:21.880 playing in bars and doing local things just because they 0:40:21.920 --> 0:40:24.080 love to sing, and they would not trade that for 0:40:24.160 --> 0:40:27.360 the world, because it, like it stirs up emotions inside 0:40:27.400 --> 0:40:31.360 of you, it feeds your soul. But most people either 0:40:31.680 --> 0:40:33.880 have something, but they never want to take the chance, 0:40:34.800 --> 0:40:39.640 or they've never even opened up the door the opportunity 0:40:39.920 --> 0:40:42.120 to figure out what they're passionate about. So that small 0:40:42.160 --> 0:40:45.400 group of people, it's hard. It's hard to go from 0:40:45.440 --> 0:40:52.400 like doing that to getting a regular and not that 0:40:52.480 --> 0:40:54.360 that's I don't want to say regular, but you know, 0:40:54.520 --> 0:40:59.239 I yeah, Like that's why you see so many fame 0:40:59.480 --> 0:41:03.600 like sports stars when they retire, they get super depressed, 0:41:04.239 --> 0:41:07.160 like I didn't want to do I wasn't built to 0:41:07.239 --> 0:41:10.319 be a regular person. There's a lot of shame when 0:41:10.320 --> 0:41:14.080 you're artistic and you fail, because it's also like, if 0:41:14.080 --> 0:41:15.920 you fail at your job, most of the time, you 0:41:15.920 --> 0:41:20.200 didn't create that product. You're selling someone else's product. When 0:41:20.200 --> 0:41:23.600 you're an artist, right, or you're a writer, that's your product, 0:41:24.280 --> 0:41:26.799 that's you. They're not. So you feel like you're not 0:41:26.840 --> 0:41:29.840 only rejecting my I'm in sales now, right, I'm in 0:41:29.880 --> 0:41:32.560 sales for a living. It's a company, says, we don't 0:41:32.600 --> 0:41:35.960 you know I'm in I'm in a consultant for a 0:41:36.000 --> 0:41:39.800 technology company. If they don't like our backup recovery service, 0:41:39.960 --> 0:41:42.839 I don't hang up the phone and go, God, why 0:41:42.880 --> 0:41:46.680 don't they like that? I'm like yeah, but if they 0:41:46.680 --> 0:41:50.640 don't like your song, You're like, wait, why no, no, no, 0:41:50.680 --> 0:41:52.480 why don't What don't you like about it? 0:41:53.320 --> 0:41:55.719 You said something that that I want to like push 0:41:55.760 --> 0:41:57.359 back on a little bit. You said, you know when 0:41:57.400 --> 0:42:00.880 when you when you you know, so go for your 0:42:00.920 --> 0:42:03.120 dreams and you fail, a certain thing happens. Do you 0:42:03.160 --> 0:42:03.920 think that you've failed? 0:42:04.840 --> 0:42:08.680 No? I don't think that failed. No, I think I 0:42:08.719 --> 0:42:13.560 was thrown a curveball or it, just like sometimes I 0:42:13.600 --> 0:42:18.920 think it's things just are meant to go, you know, 0:42:19.239 --> 0:42:23.560 the way that what our expectations are, you know, expectations 0:42:23.600 --> 0:42:26.399 are resentments waiting to happen, right, And you can put 0:42:26.440 --> 0:42:30.200 expectations on things. And I think what my expectations were 0:42:30.200 --> 0:42:33.160 from when I started to when it ended were very different. 0:42:33.200 --> 0:42:35.680 But I don't think it was a failure because I think, 0:42:35.880 --> 0:42:40.279 you know, I think that's failure is a strong word. 0:42:40.320 --> 0:42:41.920 So I think you're right. I don't think it was 0:42:41.920 --> 0:42:43.520 a failure. It just didn't end the way that I 0:42:43.640 --> 0:42:47.440 probably envisioned in the beginning. Right, But where I am 0:42:47.520 --> 0:42:50.279 now was nowhere where I envisioned. You know, I'm sure 0:42:50.280 --> 0:42:52.399 it's the same for you, right, Like what you're doing 0:42:52.440 --> 0:42:54.160 now is not at all what you thought you'd be 0:42:54.160 --> 0:42:55.000 doing at twenty one. 0:42:55.560 --> 0:42:58.759 Sure, right, Yeah, I'm I'm not as rich as I 0:42:58.800 --> 0:43:00.560 would like to do, right, But I'm happier than I 0:43:00.560 --> 0:43:01.040 thought I did. 0:43:01.480 --> 0:43:03.839 Well, yeah, and if you were, Yeah, And happiness has 0:43:03.880 --> 0:43:05.719 nothing to do with like how much money you have. 0:43:05.920 --> 0:43:07.400 No, not at all, not at all, you know. 0:43:07.760 --> 0:43:09.880 I mean it's nice, you know, like not having to 0:43:09.880 --> 0:43:13.239 worry about paying the bill. Ever, it's fantastic. 0:43:13.520 --> 0:43:14.799 I'm sure that would be lovely, but. 0:43:15.040 --> 0:43:17.520 I would spend it on some crap I didn't need anyway. 0:43:18.160 --> 0:43:21.160 I don't think Hayden failed. I don't think Hayden thinks 0:43:21.160 --> 0:43:24.239 Hayden failed. And yet as we talk, I keep trying 0:43:24.280 --> 0:43:27.240 to figure out how it could still happen for Hayden. 0:43:28.000 --> 0:43:30.160 I'm trained to think in those terms, even as we 0:43:30.200 --> 0:43:32.560 talk about how small minded it is to think in 0:43:32.600 --> 0:43:35.759 those terms. You know, I want to fix it, but 0:43:35.800 --> 0:43:38.280 I can't fix it because it's not broken. 0:43:38.680 --> 0:43:41.000 I've had some opportunities, Dave, I've pat you know. I 0:43:41.040 --> 0:43:44.319 had the executive producer of the Voice called me and say, hey, 0:43:44.360 --> 0:43:46.720 you know, I became friends with a guy named Jeremy 0:43:46.760 --> 0:43:52.040 Spun who is pretty high up with the show, The Voice, 0:43:53.480 --> 0:43:55.120 and he's reached out to me and I sent him 0:43:55.120 --> 0:43:57.800 a couple of videos of me singing, and the executive 0:43:57.800 --> 0:43:59.799 producer of the Voice was like, hey, you can get 0:43:59.800 --> 0:44:01.759 through all the roundings. We'll push you into the TV 0:44:01.920 --> 0:44:03.799 round if you want to do it. And I just 0:44:04.520 --> 0:44:06.880 I just have no desire, Like it's just I'm just 0:44:07.000 --> 0:44:11.080 like I just have really embraced like, you know, first 0:44:11.080 --> 0:44:13.759 of all, when you sign that contract, you sign a 0:44:13.800 --> 0:44:16.759 contract like you're obligated to them right for a certain 0:44:16.800 --> 0:44:19.640 amount of time, And I just I wouldn't do that 0:44:19.640 --> 0:44:20.240 to my kids. 0:44:20.440 --> 0:44:22.920 Hayden doesn't have the music career he thought he would have. 0:44:23.160 --> 0:44:24.840 What he has instead is a life. 0:44:25.239 --> 0:44:27.640 I'm coming up to almost eleven years of being sober 0:44:29.200 --> 0:44:31.520 at the end of this month. So I think through 0:44:31.640 --> 0:44:34.719 all of that and seeing what I have now and 0:44:34.800 --> 0:44:36.799 just by the grace of God being sober. I think 0:44:36.920 --> 0:44:38.960 for some of it, it's like for me, I look 0:44:39.000 --> 0:44:42.680 back and go, you know, I don't know, like I 0:44:42.760 --> 0:44:45.840 might not have made it through being an artist. I 0:44:45.840 --> 0:44:47.759 don't think I ever wanted the risk going back and 0:44:47.800 --> 0:44:50.640 doing that because when you really have sobriety, like nothing 0:44:50.680 --> 0:44:52.359 really comes in front of that because you know how 0:44:52.360 --> 0:44:54.400 bad it was before. So it's like, I think all 0:44:54.440 --> 0:44:57.160 of this was kind of a precursor to where I 0:44:57.200 --> 0:44:59.680 am today, and like, you know, having a life and 0:44:59.719 --> 0:45:01.600 being over and all of those things, I think has 0:45:01.640 --> 0:45:05.200 been much more rewarding than like having a little bit 0:45:05.200 --> 0:45:07.640 of fame or something else and then being blessed with 0:45:07.640 --> 0:45:10.080 four kids who you know, luckily they've never really seen 0:45:10.120 --> 0:45:12.480 their dad like as a drunk. You know, I always 0:45:12.520 --> 0:45:15.280 felt like I was. I sort of thought I could 0:45:15.320 --> 0:45:19.040 like make a difference, right, And the only way I 0:45:19.040 --> 0:45:22.240 thought I could make a difference was by like being 0:45:22.320 --> 0:45:28.000 this singer and selling out concerts and being known for that. 0:45:28.239 --> 0:45:30.840 And what I've realized through all that is, you know, 0:45:31.040 --> 0:45:34.520 I can share my story, my hopes and my share 0:45:34.560 --> 0:45:36.840 my story with people, and I can be a difference 0:45:36.880 --> 0:45:37.239 that way. 0:45:37.800 --> 0:45:41.920 Hayden II do. He survived nearly being famous, he survived 0:45:42.000 --> 0:45:45.560 the shame of coming home. He's made his impact, and 0:45:45.640 --> 0:45:48.680 he's happy. And that's good because it's impossible not to 0:45:48.800 --> 0:45:51.080 root for the guy. In the meantime, I've done a 0:45:51.120 --> 0:45:54.040 little more digging on Sudden Impact. I have found one 0:45:54.239 --> 0:45:56.560 article about them, and it's not even an article. It's 0:45:56.560 --> 0:45:59.759 a stub of an article from a local Virginia newspaper's 0:45:59.760 --> 0:46:02.560 web site. It came up in a Google search, and 0:46:02.640 --> 0:46:04.439 in the one line that I can read, they mention 0:46:04.600 --> 0:46:09.080 a Todd and Noel, but only one full name, Aaron kin. 0:46:09.920 --> 0:46:13.120 So I searched for Aaron Kine Sudden Impact, and that 0:46:13.400 --> 0:46:15.840 is the guy for sure. That's the guy in the middle, 0:46:16.360 --> 0:46:18.279 the guy with the clip on Bowtie who looks like 0:46:18.320 --> 0:46:20.799 he's late for his shift at Buca di Beppo. He's 0:46:20.840 --> 0:46:23.759 still making music. He's got a YouTube channel, and he's 0:46:23.840 --> 0:46:27.080 on Facebook and he's friends with Hayden. So I asked 0:46:27.080 --> 0:46:28.800 Hayden to put in a good word for me, and 0:46:28.840 --> 0:46:33.680 he says he will. Folks, we are one step closer 0:46:34.080 --> 0:46:38.799 to the inside of Sudden Impact. It's happening. We'll see 0:46:38.800 --> 0:46:42.440 how we do next time. On Waiting for Impact, a 0:46:42.520 --> 0:46:51.279 Dave Holmes passion project. This has been an Exactly Right 0:46:51.360 --> 0:46:57.960 production written by me Dave Holmes, produced by Hannah Kyle Crichton, recorded, 0:46:58.080 --> 0:47:02.440 mixed and sound designed by and Epen. Additional engineering and 0:47:02.520 --> 0:47:08.000 assembly by Analise Nelson, Music by Ben Wise, artwork by 0:47:08.000 --> 0:47:12.760 Garrett Ross. Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark 0:47:13.040 --> 0:47:17.359 and Danielle Kramer. Follow the show on Instagram, Facebook, and 0:47:17.400 --> 0:47:21.400 Twitter at exactly Right and follow me at Dave Holmes. 0:47:22.040 --> 0:47:26.160 For more information, go to Exactlyrightmedia dot com. 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