WEBVTT - Todd Rundgren 0:00:15.436 --> 0:00:27.996 Pushkin. Todd Rundgren is a multi talented musician who has 0:00:27.996 --> 0:00:30.676 made a name for himself both as a solo artist 0:00:30.756 --> 0:00:50.396 and a visionary music producers. Rundgren's career started in Philly 0:00:50.436 --> 0:00:52.956 in the mid sixties as part of the garage rock 0:00:52.996 --> 0:00:55.996 band The Naz. After playing lead guitar in the band 0:00:56.036 --> 0:00:58.796 for two years, Rundgren left to pursue a solo career, 0:00:59.196 --> 0:01:01.636 and over the next two decades worked as a producer 0:01:01.676 --> 0:01:05.036 for bands like Grand Funk, Railroad, Bad Finger, and The 0:01:05.116 --> 0:01:09.756 New York Dolls. But Rundegren's crowning achievement was producing Meatloaf's 0:01:09.836 --> 0:01:12.436 Bat Out of Hell album, which is to this day 0:01:12.556 --> 0:01:15.796 one of the highest selling albums of all time. But 0:01:15.876 --> 0:01:18.796 now Rundgren is far away from the spotlight. In Hawaii, 0:01:19.516 --> 0:01:21.276 he was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of 0:01:21.276 --> 0:01:24.476 Famous past October, but skipped out on the ceremony to 0:01:24.516 --> 0:01:27.596 play a local club down the street instead. He also 0:01:27.636 --> 0:01:31.036 spent many months recording vocals for Kanye's Donda, but eventually 0:01:31.076 --> 0:01:34.156 bowed out of that as well. He is busy working 0:01:34.236 --> 0:01:37.396 on an album of his own, however, a collaborative project 0:01:37.476 --> 0:01:41.396 called Space Force with artists like Sparks, Rivers, Cuomo, and 0:01:41.516 --> 0:01:45.476 Ben Folds that'll be out later this year. On today's episode, 0:01:45.476 --> 0:01:47.996 we'll hear a conversation Rick Rubin had with run Gren 0:01:48.116 --> 0:01:51.196 just weeks before the start of the pandemic. They talk 0:01:51.236 --> 0:01:53.196 about why he was the only producer who would work 0:01:53.236 --> 0:01:56.676 on the debut album for Meatloaf, who just recently passed away. 0:01:57.236 --> 0:01:59.476 Todd also talks about engineering the third album for the 0:01:59.516 --> 0:02:01.756 band when the group was in the midst of turmoil, 0:02:02.236 --> 0:02:09.236 and why he always turns off Taylor Swift's music. This 0:02:09.316 --> 0:02:11.716 is broken record line of notes for the digital Age. 0:02:11.956 --> 0:02:20.716 I'm justin Richmond. Here's Rick Rubin and Todd Rundergren. I've 0:02:20.716 --> 0:02:23.396 been going on. I'm in the middle of doing another 0:02:23.476 --> 0:02:26.996 collab record. So just in the last two weeks, I 0:02:27.036 --> 0:02:32.116 got stuff from Sparks Cool, Adrian Blue's new band that 0:02:32.156 --> 0:02:35.076 I've done a little work with called Lemon Twigs. Ben 0:02:35.156 --> 0:02:38.636 Folds sent me like ten things and I gotta pick 0:02:38.716 --> 0:02:40.956 one to focus on. How long have you been doing 0:02:41.036 --> 0:02:44.276 collaborations like this? Well, my last album was pretty much 0:02:44.396 --> 0:02:47.436 you know, it was mostly all collaborations, some songs by myself. 0:02:47.476 --> 0:02:50.476 But I made a conscious decision because I've been making 0:02:50.516 --> 0:02:53.356 all my records out here, I make them by myself, 0:02:53.396 --> 0:02:55.916 you know, in my own echo chamber. So I thought, 0:02:55.916 --> 0:02:59.476 I'm get some more influence in here, do some audience expansion. 0:03:00.676 --> 0:03:03.396 Does it always start by them sending you something? It 0:03:03.436 --> 0:03:05.556 was all different, at least the last time. It was different, 0:03:06.316 --> 0:03:09.516 different methods, Like, for instance, Robin, I thought, you know, 0:03:09.556 --> 0:03:12.036 maybe I can get Robin to do this song. I 0:03:12.076 --> 0:03:14.956 think she writes, but I just sent her the song, 0:03:15.076 --> 0:03:16.996 said you're interested in She said, yeah, I like the song, 0:03:17.036 --> 0:03:20.076 I'll do the song. So in that particular interstance, it 0:03:20.236 --> 0:03:22.916 was simply like I did the whole recording and she 0:03:23.676 --> 0:03:28.316 did the vocals on it. And there were ones in 0:03:28.356 --> 0:03:32.956 which somebody would send me something like Joe Walsh sent 0:03:33.036 --> 0:03:37.036 me a track that It's almost always like something that 0:03:37.076 --> 0:03:39.596 they were working on that went more abund you know. 0:03:39.836 --> 0:03:43.596 So you get excited at the beginning, and then somewhere 0:03:43.636 --> 0:03:46.356 in the middle of the process you kind of need 0:03:46.356 --> 0:03:48.396 to move on to something else or you lose interest 0:03:48.436 --> 0:03:50.916 in it. So a lot of people have these half 0:03:50.956 --> 0:03:53.836 finished things laying around, and those are actually the most 0:03:53.876 --> 0:03:57.836 fun for me because it's their idea. But it's still 0:03:57.956 --> 0:04:01.076 room for me to do something with it because it's 0:04:01.116 --> 0:04:06.196 not completely finished. Even that can take different sort of turns. 0:04:06.196 --> 0:04:09.596 Like Ben Fold sent me about a dozen very of 0:04:09.636 --> 0:04:12.116 a song that he does live, which turns out to 0:04:12.156 --> 0:04:15.636 be different every single night. It's called like rock this 0:04:15.916 --> 0:04:19.236 Bitch or something like that. It just turned out to 0:04:19.276 --> 0:04:21.196 be a gag that he does in all of his shows. 0:04:21.276 --> 0:04:24.556 And then he makes a song up on the spot 0:04:25.116 --> 0:04:26.916 but somewhere and they say, we're going to rock this 0:04:27.156 --> 0:04:31.996 Bitch in Norfolk tonight, you know, something like that. So 0:04:32.036 --> 0:04:34.196 they said, all I got to do is like find 0:04:34.276 --> 0:04:37.636 one get rid of the rock this Bitch part, figure 0:04:37.676 --> 0:04:41.436 out something else about you know what it's about, and 0:04:41.476 --> 0:04:44.516 we'll have a song somehow. But it's you know, it's 0:04:44.596 --> 0:04:46.476 not the same as doing your own record because I 0:04:46.516 --> 0:04:50.876 have control over the timeline. When you start involving other artists, 0:04:50.996 --> 0:04:54.516 it's harder to make demands and say finished this now 0:04:54.596 --> 0:04:58.116 because my record label wants to release it. Only certain 0:04:58.236 --> 0:05:01.716 artists are first of all willing to collaborate, and then 0:05:01.756 --> 0:05:06.156 sometimes there are conflicting schedules, like I think I'm doing 0:05:06.196 --> 0:05:09.316 something with Thomas Dolbium. Before he couldn't do it as 0:05:09.356 --> 0:05:12.076 he was too busy doing something else. But now he's 0:05:12.076 --> 0:05:14.756 got a window. So he didn't do anything for the 0:05:14.836 --> 0:05:17.236 first record, but we may get something done for this one. 0:05:17.476 --> 0:05:21.996 That's actually an interesting idea instead of them always being 0:05:22.036 --> 0:05:26.796 different artists really having a distant band you and one 0:05:26.836 --> 0:05:29.716 other artist. Yeah, it's hard to find artists that are 0:05:29.916 --> 0:05:32.796 fully comfortable with this process. Even a lot of the 0:05:32.836 --> 0:05:38.556 people that I assume you know, have the technical wherewithal 0:05:38.956 --> 0:05:41.916 to do things like runoff stems and stuff like that, 0:05:42.036 --> 0:05:45.196 you often find that they depend on an engineer to do, 0:05:45.356 --> 0:05:47.316 you know, to keep track of where stuff is and 0:05:47.396 --> 0:05:50.596 to run stuff off. That's an extra layer that you 0:05:50.676 --> 0:05:53.196 have to go through. So ideally you find an artist 0:05:53.236 --> 0:05:57.156 who is as experienced with the stuff as you are 0:05:57.196 --> 0:05:59.716 and it just like take what you give him, turn 0:05:59.756 --> 0:06:02.676 it around, send it back. In that sense, I can 0:06:02.716 --> 0:06:05.836 clear up any issues on my end ye by myself, 0:06:05.836 --> 0:06:09.556 because I can engineer. But maybe someone you can cast 0:06:09.636 --> 0:06:11.716 in that role who you really like, you know, someone 0:06:11.716 --> 0:06:15.076 whose music you love, would feel like fun to do 0:06:15.156 --> 0:06:16.916 that all, Well, it's funny. They're like, you know that 0:06:17.036 --> 0:06:19.796 there's a lot of music out there, Like for instance, 0:06:19.796 --> 0:06:23.196 Trent Resner on the last record he sent me a 0:06:23.236 --> 0:06:28.756 whole album's worth of stuff because he and Atticus Ross 0:06:29.076 --> 0:06:32.676 do a lot of film and TV soundtrack work, and 0:06:32.756 --> 0:06:35.516 so they just archive stuff. They come up with an idea, 0:06:35.916 --> 0:06:39.556 something that would be a mood for a film, and 0:06:39.556 --> 0:06:41.396 then the archive it. So when I asked him if 0:06:41.436 --> 0:06:44.116 he had anything, he sent me like almost two dozen 0:06:44.796 --> 0:06:47.956 of these various themes, you know, and said pick one. 0:06:48.716 --> 0:06:51.876 None of them had any lyrics or anything on him. So, yeah, 0:06:51.916 --> 0:06:54.556 it's funny. The last record, there was only one what 0:06:54.596 --> 0:06:59.916 you would consider traditional collaboration, and that was just a coincidence. 0:07:00.276 --> 0:07:03.076 I was pretty much done the record and I had 0:07:03.076 --> 0:07:05.356 this one orphan track and I didn't know what to 0:07:05.396 --> 0:07:07.316 do with it, and I was just going to leave it. 0:07:08.356 --> 0:07:12.316 And Donald Fagan was on the island and we were 0:07:12.316 --> 0:07:13.916 out at dinner and I said, oh, I got this 0:07:14.036 --> 0:07:16.356 orphan track. You know, I'm about to deliver my records. 0:07:16.396 --> 0:07:18.436 You want to listen to it? He said sure, And 0:07:18.476 --> 0:07:20.716 I thought it was a steely Danish kind of thing anyway, 0:07:20.716 --> 0:07:23.396 a little bit jazzy. So I sent it to him 0:07:23.396 --> 0:07:26.196 and the next day he starts sending back titles, you know, 0:07:26.356 --> 0:07:29.076 song titles. Some of them are just like out of 0:07:29.076 --> 0:07:31.156 the blue and ridiculous, but we sent back when it 0:07:31.196 --> 0:07:35.476 said tinfoil hat, and then we suddenly knew that's what 0:07:35.516 --> 0:07:37.876 we have to do. I had the track pretty much 0:07:37.876 --> 0:07:40.076 all recorded, but we wrote the song together in the 0:07:40.116 --> 0:07:43.756 way that you would think Paul McCartney and John Lennon 0:07:43.796 --> 0:07:50.636 would moon spooneeah tune. So that was the only time 0:07:50.876 --> 0:07:55.476 that I was physically in the same place as my collaborator, 0:07:56.316 --> 0:08:01.316 which was fun. But I've had episodes where I was 0:08:01.316 --> 0:08:06.716 supposed to like write with someone, and I'm not usually 0:08:06.716 --> 0:08:09.396 not very good at just, you know, sitting down and 0:08:09.476 --> 0:08:12.236 writing with someone. I had known Donald for a long time, 0:08:12.276 --> 0:08:14.516 so I think we were a little bit more sympatico 0:08:14.756 --> 0:08:17.036 than if I was meeting someone for the first time 0:08:17.076 --> 0:08:19.876 and supposed to write with them. But I remember, you know, 0:08:19.876 --> 0:08:23.116 an episode with like Rick Springfield, who came to my 0:08:23.196 --> 0:08:25.956 house when I was living in sas Alito wanting to 0:08:25.956 --> 0:08:28.716 write something, and all we did was just kind of 0:08:28.756 --> 0:08:31.036 sit there and look at each other, you know, Because 0:08:31.116 --> 0:08:33.516 for me, in some ways writing is it just a 0:08:33.596 --> 0:08:37.676 very personal thing. I usually try and find solitude when 0:08:37.676 --> 0:08:39.996 I have to write, so that I'm not distracted by 0:08:39.996 --> 0:08:44.076 anything and I can eventually hear what I'm thinking in 0:08:44.116 --> 0:08:46.596 the back of my head. Making music is the way 0:08:46.636 --> 0:08:49.836 I learn about myself and make changes in myself because 0:08:50.036 --> 0:08:53.996 I objectivize ideas, and once they're out there, you can say, oh, 0:08:54.036 --> 0:08:56.476 that was stupid or Okay, that's not so bad. Stick 0:08:56.476 --> 0:08:59.236 with that. Where do you think the ideas come from. Well, 0:08:59.276 --> 0:09:03.196 sometimes they just come from the process. Like the most 0:09:03.356 --> 0:09:07.436 financially rewarding song I ever recorded was banging the drum 0:09:07.476 --> 0:09:10.116 all day, But that was a song I dreams because 0:09:10.196 --> 0:09:12.036 I was in the middle of making a record. When 0:09:12.036 --> 0:09:13.996 it was time to make a I would go back 0:09:14.036 --> 0:09:16.396 to my house in Lake Hill, where I'd be completely 0:09:16.436 --> 0:09:19.836 alone with no distractions, and two weeks later I'd have 0:09:19.876 --> 0:09:23.636 a record, you know, because you remove all the distractions 0:09:23.636 --> 0:09:25.596 and suddenly you're thinking about music all the time, and 0:09:25.676 --> 0:09:29.356 the process just starts to set in. My brain starts 0:09:29.356 --> 0:09:32.036 writing songs when I'm asleep, but it doesn't write the 0:09:32.076 --> 0:09:34.556 songs that I would write. If I was conscious, I 0:09:34.596 --> 0:09:37.836 would never have thought of, let alone written a song 0:09:37.956 --> 0:09:41.476 so dumb as buying the drum all day. Yea. In 0:09:41.476 --> 0:09:44.436 that sense, it was a gift from my subconscious saying 0:09:44.636 --> 0:09:48.876 you won't understand why you're doing this now, but years 0:09:48.956 --> 0:09:52.716 from now you will understand why you're doing this. Years 0:09:52.716 --> 0:09:55.796 from now is when we started getting carnival cruise line deals. 0:09:56.036 --> 0:09:59.996 You know, how's your relationship to music changed over the 0:10:00.036 --> 0:10:04.556 course of your life. Everybody's relationship to music has changed. 0:10:04.756 --> 0:10:08.596 You know, my story is not any different than anyone else's. 0:10:08.676 --> 0:10:12.116 It's just I had the advantage of seeing it common 0:10:12.316 --> 0:10:18.276 in the way that many artists didn't because of other interests, 0:10:18.476 --> 0:10:23.236 my interest in computer technology and media in general, and 0:10:23.916 --> 0:10:27.316 I sort of knew that at one point music was 0:10:27.396 --> 0:10:30.436 no longer going to be a commodity, that it was 0:10:30.476 --> 0:10:32.556 going to go back to being a service, because it 0:10:32.596 --> 0:10:36.156 always was a service, and that we went through this 0:10:36.356 --> 0:10:39.516 entire illusory period when we figured out how to capture sounds, 0:10:39.556 --> 0:10:42.836 we started selling the artifacts that held the sound on them, 0:10:43.596 --> 0:10:46.396 and sorry to think that was music. You know, music 0:10:46.476 --> 0:10:49.156 is measured by the number of these things that you sell. 0:10:50.636 --> 0:10:53.876 But for the entire history of music, up until that point, 0:10:53.916 --> 0:10:57.196 the only way you got paid as a musician you performed, 0:10:58.116 --> 0:11:02.396 unless you had the talent of a transcriptionist. A lot 0:11:02.396 --> 0:11:05.676 of the famous composers actually didn't make money off of 0:11:05.956 --> 0:11:08.916 writing the music they made. They made money off of 0:11:09.516 --> 0:11:13.156 writing it down wow, making copies of it. This is 0:11:13.196 --> 0:11:17.036 the roots of music publishing. All of our recorded music 0:11:17.156 --> 0:11:21.356 publishing paradigms came from printed music. And before there was 0:11:21.396 --> 0:11:24.996 printed music, because there were not always printers to print 0:11:25.036 --> 0:11:28.316 the music, there were people who manually transcribe the music 0:11:28.356 --> 0:11:30.836 and that was how they made a living. And then 0:11:30.876 --> 0:11:33.996 they wrote symphonies. Unless you're a vinyl freak or something, 0:11:33.996 --> 0:11:37.476 you don't think about music as this thing anymore. You 0:11:37.516 --> 0:11:40.556 don't even think about albums anymore, unless you just think 0:11:40.556 --> 0:11:46.436 about songs and playlists and podcasts and that sort of thing. 0:11:46.916 --> 0:11:50.316 What we call the quality time listening experience is no 0:11:50.396 --> 0:11:53.116 longer part of the average person's life. When I was 0:11:53.196 --> 0:11:55.756 growing up, there was no such thing as portable music. 0:11:56.316 --> 0:11:58.236 There was the music that you heard on the radio, 0:11:58.276 --> 0:12:01.316 but the DJ decided what that was. If you wanted 0:12:01.316 --> 0:12:04.356 a personal listening experience, you had to go home and 0:12:05.436 --> 0:12:07.796 sit in the sweet spot. And once you made the 0:12:07.836 --> 0:12:11.676 trouble for that, well, the Beatles just released Revolver, Locked 0:12:11.676 --> 0:12:15.396 a Door, Unplug the phone, do not interrupt me. I'm 0:12:15.436 --> 0:12:17.076 going to sit here and I'm going to listen to it. 0:12:17.156 --> 0:12:20.876 Probably three times in a row. The Sony Walkman essentially 0:12:21.076 --> 0:12:25.156 blew all that away, because now the music becomes the 0:12:25.236 --> 0:12:28.716 soundtrack to your life, and you have the option of 0:12:28.876 --> 0:12:32.556 deciding what it is wherever you happen to be. And 0:12:33.476 --> 0:12:36.036 while it now services you in all of these other 0:12:36.916 --> 0:12:40.756 ways that it didn't before, like when you're jogging, when 0:12:40.756 --> 0:12:43.676 you're in the subway, reading your newspaper and stuff like that, 0:12:43.956 --> 0:12:47.716 you're not in the music anymore. Don't pretend you're listening 0:12:47.756 --> 0:12:50.076 to the music and the way you would if you like, 0:12:50.196 --> 0:12:52.596 shut down all your other senses. A little bit of 0:12:52.596 --> 0:12:54.956 a sidetrack, but it's based on what you just said. 0:12:54.956 --> 0:12:58.796 And I'm just picturing you as a kid. And one 0:12:58.796 --> 0:13:01.276 of the Beatles albums comes out, it's a big deal 0:13:01.876 --> 0:13:05.636 and the experience of listening to them those first times. 0:13:05.876 --> 0:13:10.476 Can you remember how different it was each time? I 0:13:10.516 --> 0:13:15.676 do remember that eventually you got to realize that the 0:13:15.676 --> 0:13:19.996 Beatles were an evolutionary phenomenon, that it wasn't going to 0:13:20.036 --> 0:13:23.476 be loved me to for ten years or something like that. 0:13:23.796 --> 0:13:27.236 And I think that started to dawn on me at 0:13:27.316 --> 0:13:31.596 least around Rubber Soult, because then they started incorporating other instruments, 0:13:31.636 --> 0:13:35.356 but more than just other instruments, other sorts of moods 0:13:35.356 --> 0:13:38.716 and textures. It was their most acoustic record up until 0:13:38.796 --> 0:13:42.036 that point, and yet it didn't flag in terms of 0:13:42.036 --> 0:13:47.636 the songwriting. The songwriting was evolving and getting into areas 0:13:47.716 --> 0:13:53.116 that weren't just about relationships with girls and things like that. Yeah, 0:13:53.156 --> 0:13:56.436 you realize that that you could grow to expect that 0:13:56.476 --> 0:13:59.916 there would be something different every record. Did they ever 0:14:00.036 --> 0:14:04.556 disappoint you? There are always little disappointments. They're always throwaway songs. 0:14:04.596 --> 0:14:06.636 And I'm pretty sure the Beatles knew they were throwaway 0:14:06.636 --> 0:14:09.876 songs in their catalogs. I know that when the Beatles 0:14:09.916 --> 0:14:12.556 first came out, I had to know every song. I 0:14:12.596 --> 0:14:15.116 had to know the guitar solo to every song. But 0:14:15.236 --> 0:14:18.076 I did not get Sergeant Pepper. Yeah, when it first 0:14:18.116 --> 0:14:20.236 came out, didn't come around for you eventually or no, 0:14:20.556 --> 0:14:22.876 not in the way that most people did. Because one 0:14:22.876 --> 0:14:25.036 of the reasons why I didn't get it was I 0:14:25.196 --> 0:14:28.356 was like Squeaky Clean didn't take any drugs of any kind. 0:14:28.396 --> 0:14:31.956 I didn't drink, and the word was that you had 0:14:31.996 --> 0:14:34.996 to be on acid to fully appreciate this record. And 0:14:35.036 --> 0:14:36.996 I said, well, then I guess I'm just not getting 0:14:37.036 --> 0:14:39.276 this record because I'm not going to take the acid 0:14:39.596 --> 0:14:42.956 to appreciate the record. If I can't appreciate the record 0:14:42.996 --> 0:14:45.316 without the acid, you know, then there must be something 0:14:45.356 --> 0:14:49.076 wrong with the record. Later, I actually got into it 0:14:49.196 --> 0:14:52.316 more for the sound of it, because it was a 0:14:52.316 --> 0:14:55.476 different sound than their previous records. The previous records all 0:14:56.116 --> 0:14:58.436 mostly were pretty dry, and they didn't use a lot 0:14:58.436 --> 0:15:01.436 of ambience or anything like that. Certainly didn't use a 0:15:01.476 --> 0:15:04.756 full symphony orchestra or anything. And so it was more 0:15:04.956 --> 0:15:07.716 the sound and a certain way that the voices were 0:15:07.796 --> 0:15:12.316 placed that gave them that separation that your psychedelic mind 0:15:12.396 --> 0:15:14.716 would have given it. In other words, I think the 0:15:14.756 --> 0:15:18.636 Beatles were influencing George Martin in some ways, you know, 0:15:18.756 --> 0:15:21.116 in terms of how they wanted the record to sound. 0:15:22.356 --> 0:15:24.516 We'll be back after this quick break with more from 0:15:24.516 --> 0:15:32.276 Todd Rundgren. We're back with Rick's conversation with Todd Rundegren. 0:15:32.796 --> 0:15:36.316 How did you connect with Albert Grossman? The choices that 0:15:36.396 --> 0:15:38.796 I made later in life were affected by what happened 0:15:38.796 --> 0:15:42.636 to me very early on when I formed my first band. 0:15:43.116 --> 0:15:45.956 I got out of high school and I got into 0:15:46.076 --> 0:15:49.476 a local blues band, which made me something of a 0:15:49.596 --> 0:15:53.516 celebrity in downtown Philadelphia. So when that band decided that 0:15:53.596 --> 0:15:55.676 they wanted to be the Grateful Dead and go to 0:15:55.716 --> 0:15:58.956 the country and drop acid and that sort of thing, 0:15:59.116 --> 0:16:01.636 I said, Okay, I'm done with that. I'm going to 0:16:01.716 --> 0:16:04.196 start my own band. And I had enough of a 0:16:04.356 --> 0:16:07.396 name at that point that I could just steal people 0:16:07.436 --> 0:16:10.236 from any other band. We had a quartet called the 0:16:10.316 --> 0:16:14.276 Naz We did cover songs like everybody did at first, 0:16:14.356 --> 0:16:18.556 because I had yet to write any material. I started 0:16:18.556 --> 0:16:21.436 writing songs. On the first song I ever wrote, Washi Hello, 0:16:21.516 --> 0:16:24.556 It's Me. I got whist away from Philadelphia to New York. 0:16:25.236 --> 0:16:28.956 Our manager was originally a publicist, so he knew everyone 0:16:29.036 --> 0:16:33.276 who edited the teen magazines. So before we were even signed, 0:16:33.316 --> 0:16:36.156 we were on the cover of sixteen magazine as some 0:16:36.236 --> 0:16:40.396 new discovery. We were experiencing it as if we had 0:16:40.436 --> 0:16:43.916 already done it, but we hadn't done anything yet. We 0:16:43.996 --> 0:16:46.956 hadn't even gotten signed yet. But our manager knew how 0:16:46.996 --> 0:16:49.596 to publicize it. Anytime there was a big event in 0:16:49.636 --> 0:16:52.756 New York City that everyone had to be at, he 0:16:52.756 --> 0:16:55.836 would get us invited and get us a limousine and 0:16:55.916 --> 0:16:58.076 we would show up at that event and everyone would say, 0:16:58.116 --> 0:17:01.836 who are those guys? Yeah, And so eventually we got 0:17:01.836 --> 0:17:05.796 signed to a really big contract. Two albums later. Band 0:17:05.916 --> 0:17:08.516 is done, It's all done. And after that I started 0:17:08.556 --> 0:17:11.916 to learn about out what the engineer does, because after 0:17:11.996 --> 0:17:14.916 mixing the second NAZ record and having a free run 0:17:14.956 --> 0:17:17.556 of the console, I'm just starting to absorb all of 0:17:17.596 --> 0:17:21.596 the basic engineering concepts. And after the second record, the 0:17:21.636 --> 0:17:25.276 band blew up and I'm on the street and the 0:17:25.396 --> 0:17:28.396 partner of the guy who managed the NAZ about six 0:17:28.476 --> 0:17:31.996 months later finds me spending my days doing lights in 0:17:32.036 --> 0:17:35.796 a discotheque, designing lights for a disco, doing nothing at 0:17:35.796 --> 0:17:38.196 all to do with music, hanging out with clothiers in 0:17:38.236 --> 0:17:41.236 the West village and he says, I'm working for Albert 0:17:41.236 --> 0:17:45.036 Grossman now and he's tasked me with finding new young talent. 0:17:45.356 --> 0:17:47.516 I saw how you worked on the last two records. 0:17:47.796 --> 0:17:50.716 We need someone to come in and modernize a lot 0:17:50.716 --> 0:17:54.436 of the old legacy artists. Because Albert Grossman he was 0:17:54.476 --> 0:17:57.036 no longer managing Bob Dylan, but that was how he 0:17:57.276 --> 0:18:00.756 got famous Bob Dylan, Peter Paul and Mary. He was 0:18:00.796 --> 0:18:06.076 managing James Cotton and then eventually he did Janis Joplin, 0:18:06.836 --> 0:18:09.836 so he was like, you know, the world's most high 0:18:09.876 --> 0:18:13.316 powered manager at that point. One of the very first 0:18:13.356 --> 0:18:18.196 things they did was put me on a Jesse Winchester project. 0:18:18.716 --> 0:18:20.956 They asked me if I would engineer, thinking that I 0:18:21.396 --> 0:18:23.996 had more experience as an engineer than I actually had, 0:18:24.756 --> 0:18:27.636 but they liked what I did. I was really quick. 0:18:28.476 --> 0:18:30.756 I had learned a lot of things about mike placement 0:18:30.876 --> 0:18:34.196 during the second Naz album, and so after that was done, 0:18:34.196 --> 0:18:37.396 they asked me to engineer Stage Fright, which was the first, 0:18:37.516 --> 0:18:40.036 you know, really big, high profile gig that I had, 0:18:40.356 --> 0:18:42.516 and there were no producers on Stage Fright. It was 0:18:42.556 --> 0:18:45.276 like anybody who showed up was a producer. Is that 0:18:45.356 --> 0:18:48.516 the band's third album? It was the third one. Yeah, 0:18:48.596 --> 0:18:50.916 there was Big Pink, and then there was the Brown 0:18:51.116 --> 0:18:54.276 one that had Crippled Creak on it, and then there 0:18:54.316 --> 0:18:57.756 was Stage Fright. And that was a real trial by fire, 0:18:59.076 --> 0:19:01.836 not simply because it was the first major product that 0:19:01.916 --> 0:19:04.516 I did, but the band was in this state of 0:19:05.276 --> 0:19:08.316 I don't know whether to characterize it is turmoil. But 0:19:08.956 --> 0:19:11.116 they still working with Bob at the timer no more, 0:19:12.076 --> 0:19:15.396 they weren't working with Bob No, but there were issues 0:19:15.436 --> 0:19:18.356 they were starting a fester. Some of them had to 0:19:18.356 --> 0:19:21.756 do with the band's sudden success. This is a bunch 0:19:21.756 --> 0:19:24.756 of musicians who for years and years and years, you know, 0:19:25.356 --> 0:19:28.116 all they were was a backup band for Ronnie Hawks, 0:19:28.836 --> 0:19:32.596 a Canadian who rarely toured in the United States, you know, 0:19:32.876 --> 0:19:36.676 And then suddenly they're thrust into the spotlight by playing 0:19:36.716 --> 0:19:39.156 with Bob Dylan, and then their first album comes out 0:19:39.316 --> 0:19:42.956 and it's a big phenomenon. Second album comes out. By 0:19:42.996 --> 0:19:45.316 the time Stage Fright comes out, they're probably the biggest 0:19:45.316 --> 0:19:48.596 band in the world at this point. Yeah, and maybe 0:19:48.676 --> 0:19:51.916 most influential as well as popular. Yeah, because I mean 0:19:51.956 --> 0:19:55.076 it's like Elton John puts out a song called lev On. 0:19:55.556 --> 0:19:57.836 You know, how obvious can that be? You know, and 0:19:57.916 --> 0:19:59.716 it sounds just you know, it's got all of those 0:19:59.916 --> 0:20:03.516 sort of earmarks of what the band is. Essentially, I'd 0:20:03.516 --> 0:20:08.236 like to say fabricating, you know, because you listen to 0:20:08.276 --> 0:20:10.396 the band's record you think, oh, these guys are all 0:20:10.436 --> 0:20:14.796 from Arkansas. No, they're all from Canada. Only from Arkansas 0:20:15.356 --> 0:20:18.756 is leve On and everything else is fabricated. You know. 0:20:19.436 --> 0:20:22.556 Robbie who's writing all the material is essentially pretending to 0:20:22.596 --> 0:20:27.596 be Levon and in some ways that might even make 0:20:27.636 --> 0:20:32.116 it better. You know, sometimes sometimes the distance the fantasy 0:20:33.276 --> 0:20:38.636 makes it more thrilling for the writer. They're not just 0:20:38.716 --> 0:20:42.436 being themselves. They've an idealized version of this thing. But 0:20:42.596 --> 0:20:45.236 here's the reason why the band is in turmoil, because 0:20:45.316 --> 0:20:48.796 Robbie's writing all the material and not sharing the publishing 0:20:48.796 --> 0:20:51.396 with anyone else in the band, and they're getting they're 0:20:51.396 --> 0:20:54.196 starting to realize this by the third album. I mean, 0:20:54.196 --> 0:20:56.396 they haven't put out albums on their own before, so 0:20:56.436 --> 0:20:58.876 they don't know what publishing is. And then they get 0:20:58.916 --> 0:21:01.356 the third album, they realize that he's becoming a millionaire 0:21:02.276 --> 0:21:05.676 and they're not sharing in any of that because not 0:21:05.716 --> 0:21:08.916 only are their songs appearing on their records, people are 0:21:09.236 --> 0:21:12.116 ring the songs and having hit records with those songs, 0:21:13.396 --> 0:21:15.996 and so turmoil is starting to happen in the band. 0:21:16.076 --> 0:21:19.716 There's that. There's there's also the fact that after years 0:21:19.716 --> 0:21:22.356 and years and years and just being a band and 0:21:23.476 --> 0:21:26.076 you know, out of the limelight and doing this, suddenly 0:21:26.116 --> 0:21:31.196 these guys are in the limelight, publishing a side that 0:21:31.356 --> 0:21:36.036 more money than they've ever had before, and making some 0:21:36.116 --> 0:21:39.276 of the guys a little crazy. They are doing things 0:21:39.276 --> 0:21:42.876 that they never did before. They are taking drugs and 0:21:43.036 --> 0:21:47.516 quantities that they've never had available before, and drinking more 0:21:47.596 --> 0:21:50.036 than they ever had before, and that sort of thing. 0:21:50.076 --> 0:21:55.036 And so getting through the record with something of an 0:21:55.076 --> 0:22:00.436 exercise as well, because they're all dealing with critical personal 0:22:00.436 --> 0:22:03.036 issues while the whole record is going on. Then the 0:22:03.076 --> 0:22:06.676 complicate things even further. They have promised Glynn Johnson he 0:22:06.716 --> 0:22:08.756 will have a chance to make the mix the record. 0:22:09.716 --> 0:22:14.756 So so they realize, you know, they can't ask me 0:22:14.796 --> 0:22:16.956 to engineer the whole thing and then not mix it. 0:22:17.876 --> 0:22:20.516 So they send me to England with all the master tapes. 0:22:20.716 --> 0:22:24.196 We split them in half. Glint takes them somewhere and 0:22:24.316 --> 0:22:26.716 mixes them, and then they put me in at They've 0:22:26.716 --> 0:22:28.836 just booked me in a studio that you know, because 0:22:28.876 --> 0:22:32.036 I don't know many studios in England at this point. 0:22:32.156 --> 0:22:36.636 Where was I you're up to mixing the album. Oh yeah, 0:22:36.636 --> 0:22:39.116 we're mixing the album. Oh yeah. You can go back 0:22:39.156 --> 0:22:41.596 a little further though. You talk about making the album. 0:22:42.476 --> 0:22:44.196 Tell me a little bit about the what it was 0:22:44.236 --> 0:22:46.116 like to be in the studio with the band at 0:22:46.156 --> 0:22:48.876 that time. I understand that were there were internal problems 0:22:48.916 --> 0:22:52.316 going on, but we weren't in the studio. We recorded 0:22:52.756 --> 0:22:55.476 most all of the album, the basic tracks we recorded 0:22:55.476 --> 0:22:58.116 on the stage of the Woodstock Theater. Was that, by 0:22:58.236 --> 0:23:01.276 their choice, there was no bearzable studios yet, and I 0:23:01.356 --> 0:23:03.596 was somewhat by their choice because they didn't want to 0:23:03.636 --> 0:23:07.036 record in a New York studio. I guess that's where 0:23:07.076 --> 0:23:09.436 they had done. I don't know what studio they had 0:23:09.516 --> 0:23:12.956