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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Todd Rundgren is a multi talented musician who has

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Speaker 1: made a name for himself both as a solo artist

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Speaker 1: and a visionary music producers. Rundgren's career started in Philly

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Speaker 1: in the mid sixties as part of the garage rock

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Speaker 1: band The Naz. After playing lead guitar in the band

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Speaker 1: for two years, Rundgren left to pursue a solo career,

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Speaker 1: and over the next two decades worked as a producer

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Speaker 1: for bands like Grand Funk, Railroad, Bad Finger, and The

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Speaker 1: New York Dolls. But Rundegren's crowning achievement was producing Meatloaf's

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Speaker 1: Bat Out of Hell album, which is to this day

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Speaker 1: one of the highest selling albums of all time. But

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Speaker 1: now Rundgren is far away from the spotlight. In Hawaii,

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Speaker 1: he was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of

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Speaker 1: Famous past October, but skipped out on the ceremony to

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Speaker 1: play a local club down the street instead. He also

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Speaker 1: spent many months recording vocals for Kanye's Donda, but eventually

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Speaker 1: bowed out of that as well. He is busy working

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Speaker 1: on an album of his own, however, a collaborative project

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Speaker 1: called Space Force with artists like Sparks, Rivers, Cuomo, and

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Speaker 1: Ben Folds that'll be out later this year. On today's episode,

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Speaker 1: we'll hear a conversation Rick Rubin had with run Gren

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Speaker 1: just weeks before the start of the pandemic. They talk

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Speaker 1: about why he was the only producer who would work

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Speaker 1: on the debut album for Meatloaf, who just recently passed away.

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Speaker 1: Todd also talks about engineering the third album for the

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Speaker 1: band when the group was in the midst of turmoil,

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Speaker 1: and why he always turns off Taylor Swift's music. This

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Speaker 1: is broken record line of notes for the digital Age.

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Speaker 1: I'm justin Richmond. Here's Rick Rubin and Todd Rundergren. I've

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Speaker 1: been going on. I'm in the middle of doing another

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Speaker 1: collab record. So just in the last two weeks, I

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Speaker 1: got stuff from Sparks Cool, Adrian Blue's new band that

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Speaker 1: I've done a little work with called Lemon Twigs. Ben

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Speaker 1: Folds sent me like ten things and I gotta pick

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Speaker 1: one to focus on. How long have you been doing

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Speaker 1: collaborations like this? Well, my last album was pretty much

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Speaker 1: you know, it was mostly all collaborations, some songs by myself.

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Speaker 1: But I made a conscious decision because I've been making

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Speaker 1: all my records out here, I make them by myself,

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Speaker 1: you know, in my own echo chamber. So I thought,

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Speaker 1: I'm get some more influence in here, do some audience expansion.

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Speaker 1: Does it always start by them sending you something? It

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Speaker 1: was all different, at least the last time. It was different,

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Speaker 1: different methods, Like, for instance, Robin, I thought, you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe I can get Robin to do this song. I

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Speaker 1: think she writes, but I just sent her the song,

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Speaker 1: said you're interested in She said, yeah, I like the song,

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Speaker 1: I'll do the song. So in that particular interstance, it

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Speaker 1: was simply like I did the whole recording and she

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Speaker 1: did the vocals on it. And there were ones in

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Speaker 1: which somebody would send me something like Joe Walsh sent

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Speaker 1: me a track that It's almost always like something that

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Speaker 1: they were working on that went more abund you know.

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Speaker 1: So you get excited at the beginning, and then somewhere

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Speaker 1: in the middle of the process you kind of need

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Speaker 1: to move on to something else or you lose interest

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Speaker 1: in it. So a lot of people have these half

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Speaker 1: finished things laying around, and those are actually the most

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Speaker 1: fun for me because it's their idea. But it's still

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Speaker 1: room for me to do something with it because it's

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Speaker 1: not completely finished. Even that can take different sort of turns.

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Speaker 1: Like Ben Fold sent me about a dozen very of

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Speaker 1: a song that he does live, which turns out to

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Speaker 1: be different every single night. It's called like rock this

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Speaker 1: Bitch or something like that. It just turned out to

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Speaker 1: be a gag that he does in all of his shows.

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Speaker 1: And then he makes a song up on the spot

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Speaker 1: but somewhere and they say, we're going to rock this

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Speaker 1: Bitch in Norfolk tonight, you know, something like that. So

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Speaker 1: they said, all I got to do is like find

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Speaker 1: one get rid of the rock this Bitch part, figure

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Speaker 1: out something else about you know what it's about, and

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Speaker 1: we'll have a song somehow. But it's you know, it's

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Speaker 1: not the same as doing your own record because I

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Speaker 1: have control over the timeline. When you start involving other artists,

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Speaker 1: it's harder to make demands and say finished this now

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Speaker 1: because my record label wants to release it. Only certain

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Speaker 1: artists are first of all willing to collaborate, and then

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Speaker 1: sometimes there are conflicting schedules, like I think I'm doing

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Speaker 1: something with Thomas Dolbium. Before he couldn't do it as

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Speaker 1: he was too busy doing something else. But now he's

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Speaker 1: got a window. So he didn't do anything for the

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Speaker 1: first record, but we may get something done for this one.

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Speaker 1: That's actually an interesting idea instead of them always being

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Speaker 1: different artists really having a distant band you and one

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Speaker 1: other artist. Yeah, it's hard to find artists that are

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Speaker 1: fully comfortable with this process. Even a lot of the

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Speaker 1: people that I assume you know, have the technical wherewithal

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Speaker 1: to do things like runoff stems and stuff like that,

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Speaker 1: you often find that they depend on an engineer to do,

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Speaker 1: you know, to keep track of where stuff is and

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Speaker 1: to run stuff off. That's an extra layer that you

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Speaker 1: have to go through. So ideally you find an artist

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Speaker 1: who is as experienced with the stuff as you are

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Speaker 1: and it just like take what you give him, turn

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Speaker 1: it around, send it back. In that sense, I can

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Speaker 1: clear up any issues on my end ye by myself,

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Speaker 1: because I can engineer. But maybe someone you can cast

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Speaker 1: in that role who you really like, you know, someone

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Speaker 1: whose music you love, would feel like fun to do

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Speaker 1: that all, Well, it's funny. They're like, you know that

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of music out there, Like for instance,

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Speaker 1: Trent Resner on the last record he sent me a

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Speaker 1: whole album's worth of stuff because he and Atticus Ross

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Speaker 1: do a lot of film and TV soundtrack work, and

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Speaker 1: so they just archive stuff. They come up with an idea,

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Speaker 1: something that would be a mood for a film, and

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Speaker 1: then the archive it. So when I asked him if

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Speaker 1: he had anything, he sent me like almost two dozen

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Speaker 1: of these various themes, you know, and said pick one.

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Speaker 1: None of them had any lyrics or anything on him. So, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's funny. The last record, there was only one what

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Speaker 1: you would consider traditional collaboration, and that was just a coincidence.

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Speaker 1: I was pretty much done the record and I had

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Speaker 1: this one orphan track and I didn't know what to

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Speaker 1: do with it, and I was just going to leave it.

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Speaker 1: And Donald Fagan was on the island and we were

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Speaker 1: out at dinner and I said, oh, I got this

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Speaker 1: orphan track. You know, I'm about to deliver my records.

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Speaker 1: You want to listen to it? He said sure, And

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Speaker 1: I thought it was a steely Danish kind of thing anyway,

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Speaker 1: a little bit jazzy. So I sent it to him

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Speaker 1: and the next day he starts sending back titles, you know,

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Speaker 1: song titles. Some of them are just like out of

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Speaker 1: the blue and ridiculous, but we sent back when it

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Speaker 1: said tinfoil hat, and then we suddenly knew that's what

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Speaker 1: we have to do. I had the track pretty much

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Speaker 1: all recorded, but we wrote the song together in the

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Speaker 1: way that you would think Paul McCartney and John Lennon

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Speaker 1: would moon spooneeah tune. So that was the only time

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Speaker 1: that I was physically in the same place as my collaborator,

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Speaker 1: which was fun. But I've had episodes where I was

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Speaker 1: supposed to like write with someone, and I'm not usually

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Speaker 1: not very good at just, you know, sitting down and

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Speaker 1: writing with someone. I had known Donald for a long time,

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Speaker 1: so I think we were a little bit more sympatico

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Speaker 1: than if I was meeting someone for the first time

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Speaker 1: and supposed to write with them. But I remember, you know,

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Speaker 1: an episode with like Rick Springfield, who came to my

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Speaker 1: house when I was living in sas Alito wanting to

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Speaker 1: write something, and all we did was just kind of

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Speaker 1: sit there and look at each other, you know, Because

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Speaker 1: for me, in some ways writing is it just a

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Speaker 1: very personal thing. I usually try and find solitude when

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Speaker 1: I have to write, so that I'm not distracted by

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Speaker 1: anything and I can eventually hear what I'm thinking in

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Speaker 1: the back of my head. Making music is the way

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Speaker 1: I learn about myself and make changes in myself because

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Speaker 1: I objectivize ideas, and once they're out there, you can say, oh,

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Speaker 1: that was stupid or Okay, that's not so bad. Stick

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Speaker 1: with that. Where do you think the ideas come from. Well,

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Speaker 1: sometimes they just come from the process. Like the most

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Speaker 1: financially rewarding song I ever recorded was banging the drum

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Speaker 1: all day, But that was a song I dreams because

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Speaker 1: I was in the middle of making a record. When

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Speaker 1: it was time to make a I would go back

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Speaker 1: to my house in Lake Hill, where I'd be completely

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Speaker 1: alone with no distractions, and two weeks later I'd have

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Speaker 1: a record, you know, because you remove all the distractions

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Speaker 1: and suddenly you're thinking about music all the time, and

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Speaker 1: the process just starts to set in. My brain starts

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Speaker 1: writing songs when I'm asleep, but it doesn't write the

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Speaker 1: songs that I would write. If I was conscious, I

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Speaker 1: would never have thought of, let alone written a song

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Speaker 1: so dumb as buying the drum all day. Yea. In

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Speaker 1: that sense, it was a gift from my subconscious saying

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Speaker 1: you won't understand why you're doing this now, but years

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Speaker 1: from now you will understand why you're doing this. Years

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Speaker 1: from now is when we started getting carnival cruise line deals.

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Speaker 1: You know, how's your relationship to music changed over the

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Speaker 1: course of your life. Everybody's relationship to music has changed.

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Speaker 1: You know, my story is not any different than anyone else's.

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Speaker 1: It's just I had the advantage of seeing it common

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Speaker 1: in the way that many artists didn't because of other interests,

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Speaker 1: my interest in computer technology and media in general, and

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Speaker 1: I sort of knew that at one point music was

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Speaker 1: no longer going to be a commodity, that it was

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Speaker 1: going to go back to being a service, because it

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Speaker 1: always was a service, and that we went through this

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Speaker 1: entire illusory period when we figured out how to capture sounds,

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Speaker 1: we started selling the artifacts that held the sound on them,

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Speaker 1: and sorry to think that was music. You know, music

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Speaker 1: is measured by the number of these things that you sell.

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Speaker 1: But for the entire history of music, up until that point,

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Speaker 1: the only way you got paid as a musician you performed,

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Speaker 1: unless you had the talent of a transcriptionist. A lot

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Speaker 1: of the famous composers actually didn't make money off of

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Speaker 1: writing the music they made. They made money off of

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Speaker 1: writing it down wow, making copies of it. This is

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Speaker 1: the roots of music publishing. All of our recorded music

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Speaker 1: publishing paradigms came from printed music. And before there was

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Speaker 1: printed music, because there were not always printers to print

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Speaker 1: the music, there were people who manually transcribe the music

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Speaker 1: and that was how they made a living. And then

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Speaker 1: they wrote symphonies. Unless you're a vinyl freak or something,

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Speaker 1: you don't think about music as this thing anymore. You

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Speaker 1: don't even think about albums anymore, unless you just think

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Speaker 1: about songs and playlists and podcasts and that sort of thing.

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Speaker 1: What we call the quality time listening experience is no

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Speaker 1: longer part of the average person's life. When I was

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Speaker 1: growing up, there was no such thing as portable music.

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Speaker 1: There was the music that you heard on the radio,

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Speaker 1: but the DJ decided what that was. If you wanted

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Speaker 1: a personal listening experience, you had to go home and

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Speaker 1: sit in the sweet spot. And once you made the

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Speaker 1: trouble for that, well, the Beatles just released Revolver, Locked

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Speaker 1: a Door, Unplug the phone, do not interrupt me. I'm

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Speaker 1: going to sit here and I'm going to listen to it.

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Speaker 1: Probably three times in a row. The Sony Walkman essentially

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Speaker 1: blew all that away, because now the music becomes the

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Speaker 1: soundtrack to your life, and you have the option of

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Speaker 1: deciding what it is wherever you happen to be. And

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Speaker 1: while it now services you in all of these other

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Speaker 1: ways that it didn't before, like when you're jogging, when

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Speaker 1: you're in the subway, reading your newspaper and stuff like that,

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Speaker 1: you're not in the music anymore. Don't pretend you're listening

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Speaker 1: to the music and the way you would if you like,

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Speaker 1: shut down all your other senses. A little bit of

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Speaker 1: a sidetrack, but it's based on what you just said.

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Speaker 1: And I'm just picturing you as a kid. And one

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Speaker 1: of the Beatles albums comes out, it's a big deal

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Speaker 1: and the experience of listening to them those first times.

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Speaker 1: Can you remember how different it was each time? I

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Speaker 1: do remember that eventually you got to realize that the

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Speaker 1: Beatles were an evolutionary phenomenon, that it wasn't going to

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Speaker 1: be loved me to for ten years or something like that.

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Speaker 1: And I think that started to dawn on me at

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Speaker 1: least around Rubber Soult, because then they started incorporating other instruments,

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Speaker 1: but more than just other instruments, other sorts of moods

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Speaker 1: and textures. It was their most acoustic record up until

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Speaker 1: that point, and yet it didn't flag in terms of

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Speaker 1: the songwriting. The songwriting was evolving and getting into areas

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Speaker 1: that weren't just about relationships with girls and things like that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you realize that that you could grow to expect that

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Speaker 1: there would be something different every record. Did they ever

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Speaker 1: disappoint you? There are always little disappointments. They're always throwaway songs.

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Speaker 1: And I'm pretty sure the Beatles knew they were throwaway

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Speaker 1: songs in their catalogs. I know that when the Beatles

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Speaker 1: first came out, I had to know every song. I

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Speaker 1: had to know the guitar solo to every song. But

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Speaker 1: I did not get Sergeant Pepper. Yeah, when it first

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Speaker 1: came out, didn't come around for you eventually or no,

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Speaker 1: not in the way that most people did. Because one

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Speaker 1: of the reasons why I didn't get it was I

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Speaker 1: was like Squeaky Clean didn't take any drugs of any kind.

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Speaker 1: I didn't drink, and the word was that you had

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Speaker 1: to be on acid to fully appreciate this record. And

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Speaker 1: I said, well, then I guess I'm just not getting

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Speaker 1: this record because I'm not going to take the acid

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Speaker 1: to appreciate the record. If I can't appreciate the record

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Speaker 1: without the acid, you know, then there must be something

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Speaker 1: wrong with the record. Later, I actually got into it

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Speaker 1: more for the sound of it, because it was a

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Speaker 1: different sound than their previous records. The previous records all

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Speaker 1: mostly were pretty dry, and they didn't use a lot

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Speaker 1: of ambience or anything like that. Certainly didn't use a

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Speaker 1: full symphony orchestra or anything. And so it was more

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Speaker 1: the sound and a certain way that the voices were

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Speaker 1: placed that gave them that separation that your psychedelic mind

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Speaker 1: would have given it. In other words, I think the

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Speaker 1: Beatles were influencing George Martin in some ways, you know,

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Speaker 1: in terms of how they wanted the record to sound.

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Speaker 1: We'll be back after this quick break with more from

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Speaker 1: Todd Rundgren. We're back with Rick's conversation with Todd Rundegren.

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Speaker 1: How did you connect with Albert Grossman? The choices that

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Speaker 1: I made later in life were affected by what happened

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Speaker 1: to me very early on when I formed my first band.

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Speaker 1: I got out of high school and I got into

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Speaker 1: a local blues band, which made me something of a

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Speaker 1: celebrity in downtown Philadelphia. So when that band decided that

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Speaker 1: they wanted to be the Grateful Dead and go to

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Speaker 1: the country and drop acid and that sort of thing,

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Speaker 1: I said, Okay, I'm done with that. I'm going to

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Speaker 1: start my own band. And I had enough of a

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Speaker 1: name at that point that I could just steal people

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Speaker 1: from any other band. We had a quartet called the

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Speaker 1: Naz We did cover songs like everybody did at first,

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Speaker 1: because I had yet to write any material. I started

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Speaker 1: writing songs. On the first song I ever wrote, Washi Hello,

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Speaker 1: It's Me. I got whist away from Philadelphia to New York.

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Speaker 1: Our manager was originally a publicist, so he knew everyone

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Speaker 1: who edited the teen magazines. So before we were even signed,

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Speaker 1: we were on the cover of sixteen magazine as some

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Speaker 1: new discovery. We were experiencing it as if we had

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Speaker 1: already done it, but we hadn't done anything yet. We

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Speaker 1: hadn't even gotten signed yet. But our manager knew how

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Speaker 1: to publicize it. Anytime there was a big event in

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Speaker 1: New York City that everyone had to be at, he

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Speaker 1: would get us invited and get us a limousine and

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Speaker 1: we would show up at that event and everyone would say,

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Speaker 1: who are those guys? Yeah, And so eventually we got

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Speaker 1: signed to a really big contract. Two albums later. Band

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Speaker 1: is done, It's all done. And after that I started

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Speaker 1: to learn about out what the engineer does, because after

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Speaker 1: mixing the second NAZ record and having a free run

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Speaker 1: of the console, I'm just starting to absorb all of

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Speaker 1: the basic engineering concepts. And after the second record, the

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Speaker 1: band blew up and I'm on the street and the

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Speaker 1: partner of the guy who managed the NAZ about six

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Speaker 1: months later finds me spending my days doing lights in

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Speaker 1: a discotheque, designing lights for a disco, doing nothing at

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Speaker 1: all to do with music, hanging out with clothiers in

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Speaker 1: the West village and he says, I'm working for Albert

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Speaker 1: Grossman now and he's tasked me with finding new young talent.

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Speaker 1: I saw how you worked on the last two records.

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Speaker 1: We need someone to come in and modernize a lot

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Speaker 1: of the old legacy artists. Because Albert Grossman he was

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Speaker 1: no longer managing Bob Dylan, but that was how he

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Speaker 1: got famous Bob Dylan, Peter Paul and Mary. He was

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Speaker 1: managing James Cotton and then eventually he did Janis Joplin,

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Speaker 1: so he was like, you know, the world's most high

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Speaker 1: powered manager at that point. One of the very first

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Speaker 1: things they did was put me on a Jesse Winchester project.

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Speaker 1: They asked me if I would engineer, thinking that I

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Speaker 1: had more experience as an engineer than I actually had,

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Speaker 1: but they liked what I did. I was really quick.

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Speaker 1: I had learned a lot of things about mike placement

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Speaker 1: during the second Naz album, and so after that was done,

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Speaker 1: they asked me to engineer Stage Fright, which was the first,

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Speaker 1: you know, really big, high profile gig that I had,

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Speaker 1: and there were no producers on Stage Fright. It was

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Speaker 1: like anybody who showed up was a producer. Is that

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Speaker 1: the band's third album? It was the third one. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there was Big Pink, and then there was the Brown

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Speaker 1: one that had Crippled Creak on it, and then there

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Speaker 1: was Stage Fright. And that was a real trial by fire,

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Speaker 1: not simply because it was the first major product that

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Speaker 1: I did, but the band was in this state of

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Speaker 1: I don't know whether to characterize it is turmoil. But

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Speaker 1: they still working with Bob at the timer no more,

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Speaker 1: they weren't working with Bob No, but there were issues

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Speaker 1: they were starting a fester. Some of them had to

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Speaker 1: do with the band's sudden success. This is a bunch

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Speaker 1: of musicians who for years and years and years, you know,

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Speaker 1: all they were was a backup band for Ronnie Hawks,

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Speaker 1: a Canadian who rarely toured in the United States, you know,

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Speaker 1: And then suddenly they're thrust into the spotlight by playing

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Speaker 1: with Bob Dylan, and then their first album comes out

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Speaker 1: and it's a big phenomenon. Second album comes out. By

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Speaker 1: the time Stage Fright comes out, they're probably the biggest

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Speaker 1: band in the world at this point. Yeah, and maybe

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Speaker 1: most influential as well as popular. Yeah, because I mean

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Speaker 1: it's like Elton John puts out a song called lev On.

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Speaker 1: You know, how obvious can that be? You know, and

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Speaker 1: it sounds just you know, it's got all of those

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Speaker 1: sort of earmarks of what the band is. Essentially, I'd

347
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Speaker 1: like to say fabricating, you know, because you listen to

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Speaker 1: the band's record you think, oh, these guys are all

349
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Speaker 1: from Arkansas. No, they're all from Canada. Only from Arkansas

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Speaker 1: is leve On and everything else is fabricated. You know.

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Speaker 1: Robbie who's writing all the material is essentially pretending to

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Speaker 1: be Levon and in some ways that might even make

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Speaker 1: it better. You know, sometimes sometimes the distance the fantasy

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Speaker 1: makes it more thrilling for the writer. They're not just

355
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Speaker 1: being themselves. They've an idealized version of this thing. But

356
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Speaker 1: here's the reason why the band is in turmoil, because

357
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Speaker 1: Robbie's writing all the material and not sharing the publishing

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Speaker 1: with anyone else in the band, and they're getting they're

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Speaker 1: starting to realize this by the third album. I mean,

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Speaker 1: they haven't put out albums on their own before, so

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Speaker 1: they don't know what publishing is. And then they get

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Speaker 1: the third album, they realize that he's becoming a millionaire

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Speaker 1: and they're not sharing in any of that because not

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Speaker 1: only are their songs appearing on their records, people are

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Speaker 1: ring the songs and having hit records with those songs,

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Speaker 1: and so turmoil is starting to happen in the band.

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Speaker 1: There's that. There's there's also the fact that after years

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Speaker 1: and years and years and just being a band and

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Speaker 1: you know, out of the limelight and doing this, suddenly

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Speaker 1: these guys are in the limelight, publishing a side that

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Speaker 1: more money than they've ever had before, and making some

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Speaker 1: of the guys a little crazy. They are doing things

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Speaker 1: that they never did before. They are taking drugs and

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Speaker 1: quantities that they've never had available before, and drinking more

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Speaker 1: than they ever had before, and that sort of thing.

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Speaker 1: And so getting through the record with something of an

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Speaker 1: exercise as well, because they're all dealing with critical personal

378
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Speaker 1: issues while the whole record is going on. Then the

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Speaker 1: complicate things even further. They have promised Glynn Johnson he

380
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Speaker 1: will have a chance to make the mix the record.

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Speaker 1: So so they realize, you know, they can't ask me

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Speaker 1: to engineer the whole thing and then not mix it.

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Speaker 1: So they send me to England with all the master tapes.

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Speaker 1: We split them in half. Glint takes them somewhere and

385
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Speaker 1: mixes them, and then they put me in at They've

386
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Speaker 1: just booked me in a studio that you know, because

387
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Speaker 1: I don't know many studios in England at this point.

388
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Speaker 1: Where was I you're up to mixing the album. Oh yeah,

389
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Speaker 1: we're mixing the album. Oh yeah. You can go back

390
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Speaker 1: a little further though. You talk about making the album.

391
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Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit about the what it was

392
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Speaker 1: like to be in the studio with the band at

393
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Speaker 1: that time. I understand that were there were internal problems

394
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Speaker 1: going on, but we weren't in the studio. We recorded

395
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Speaker 1: most all of the album, the basic tracks we recorded

396
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Speaker 1: on the stage of the Woodstock Theater. Was that, by

397
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Speaker 1: their choice, there was no bearzable studios yet, and I

398
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Speaker 1: was somewhat by their choice because they didn't want to

399
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Speaker 1: record in a New York studio. I guess that's where

400
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Speaker 1: they had done. I don't know what studio they had

401
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Speaker 1: used before, but there were no studios comparable in Woodstock,

402
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Speaker 1: in the Woodstock area. So, but the studio was under construction,

403
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Speaker 1: it was not built yet, not fully built yet, but

404
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Speaker 1: they had bought a remote truck, and so we took

405
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Speaker 1: all of the equipment out of the remote truck and

406
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Speaker 1: put it in the prop tent behind the Woodstock Theater.

407
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Speaker 1: It's an outdoor theater at summer Stock Theater. It was

408
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Speaker 1: indoors but not heated or anything like that, so it

409
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Speaker 1: would be sweltering hot in the daytime and the prop

410
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Speaker 1: tent and freezing cold at night. And the sessions were

411
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Speaker 1: just kind of had something of a stream of consciousness

412
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Speaker 1: quality about them, with the songs written before before the

413
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Speaker 1: songs are written and rehearsed before the sessions. You know,

414
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Speaker 1: I had worked on the Jesse Winchester record, and various

415
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Speaker 1: people had made contributions to that, but it wasn't like

416
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Speaker 1: the whole band doing band material anything like that. They

417
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Speaker 1: were kind of subjugated to whatever was good for Jesse Winchester.

418
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Speaker 1: But you know, they are very different guys, and you know,

419
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Speaker 1: there were five very different guys, and each with a

420
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Speaker 1: certain kind of you know, personality. Robbie was squeaky clean,

421
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Speaker 1: quite obviously in charge of everything and running, you know,

422
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Speaker 1: running the show, writing everything, sober as a monk, you know,

423
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Speaker 1: that kind of thing. There was Garth. Garth never, as

424
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Speaker 1: far as I know, you know, did any kind of drugs.

425
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Speaker 1: He was not. I don't think I ever saw him

426
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Speaker 1: drinking anything. But Garth had narc ellipsey. You know, he

427
00:24:51,196 --> 00:24:53,196
Speaker 1: would just drop off in the middle of the session,

428
00:24:53,556 --> 00:24:56,556
Speaker 1: and I didn't know this. Nobody told me this, you know,

429
00:24:57,156 --> 00:25:00,916
Speaker 1: so kind of like what's going on here, you know,

430
00:25:01,316 --> 00:25:03,716
Speaker 1: and making wise cracks, and they're getting angry with me

431
00:25:03,756 --> 00:25:08,436
Speaker 1: because I don't know that he has narc ellipsey. Rick

432
00:25:08,596 --> 00:25:11,596
Speaker 1: was pretty dependable. Rick during the sessions would you know,

433
00:25:11,636 --> 00:25:15,276
Speaker 1: would be pretty dependable. But Rick had his own issues

434
00:25:15,316 --> 00:25:21,396
Speaker 1: that might take over another context, and ultimately did. Richard

435
00:25:21,476 --> 00:25:24,396
Speaker 1: had a drinking issue, and I don't think it affected

436
00:25:24,396 --> 00:25:26,796
Speaker 1: too much the sessions. But I say that the session

437
00:25:26,836 --> 00:25:28,956
Speaker 1: would be hours and hours of getting ready and then

438
00:25:28,956 --> 00:25:32,956
Speaker 1: maybe two takes, and then a bunch of needling around,

439
00:25:33,556 --> 00:25:37,396
Speaker 1: and then maybe another another two takes. I'm not sure

440
00:25:37,476 --> 00:25:41,716
Speaker 1: that any song went beyond eight takes, just because the

441
00:25:41,716 --> 00:25:45,636
Speaker 1: amount of fuxing around in between takes. It like getting

442
00:25:45,676 --> 00:25:48,516
Speaker 1: in the mood to do another take, which is not

443
00:25:48,596 --> 00:25:51,676
Speaker 1: that unusual. I mean a lot of bands are like that,

444
00:25:51,796 --> 00:25:54,236
Speaker 1: you know. I remember going to a Rolling Stones rehearsal

445
00:25:54,836 --> 00:25:57,876
Speaker 1: which they call at around midnight and nobody makes a

446
00:25:58,036 --> 00:26:03,796
Speaker 1: sound till four am, so, you know, not that unusual.

447
00:26:03,956 --> 00:26:09,756
Speaker 1: But sometimes it would be like, Okay, were an hour

448
00:26:09,956 --> 00:26:12,756
Speaker 1: into the session and Richard hasn't shown up yet. What

449
00:26:12,836 --> 00:26:15,316
Speaker 1: do you think's going on? Finally we got a call

450
00:26:15,796 --> 00:26:18,396
Speaker 1: somebody found Richard with his car nose down in a

451
00:26:18,476 --> 00:26:23,876
Speaker 1: culvert and he's been there all night. You know, Okay,

452
00:26:24,076 --> 00:26:27,556
Speaker 1: we're ready to do a take. We saw Levan was here,

453
00:26:27,556 --> 00:26:29,676
Speaker 1: but where's Levan? We can't find it. Spent an hour

454
00:26:29,756 --> 00:26:32,996
Speaker 1: looking for Levan. Levan has passed out under a pile

455
00:26:33,036 --> 00:26:37,316
Speaker 1: of curtains because he has, you know, done a little

456
00:26:37,316 --> 00:26:40,036
Speaker 1: bit too much of something during the session, you know,

457
00:26:40,516 --> 00:26:44,516
Speaker 1: and just fell right asleep. So it was, you know,

458
00:26:46,276 --> 00:26:49,076
Speaker 1: a kind of a thing like a celestial alignment. You know,

459
00:26:49,116 --> 00:26:51,636
Speaker 1: you have to get all the planets to line up

460
00:26:52,476 --> 00:26:55,836
Speaker 1: for everything to come together. And that for me, young

461
00:26:55,876 --> 00:26:59,956
Speaker 1: whipper snapper, who ultimately like makes records in a matter

462
00:26:59,996 --> 00:27:04,476
Speaker 1: of days, not weeks and months, you know, it was

463
00:27:04,516 --> 00:27:08,236
Speaker 1: a little bit much for me, and every once in

464
00:27:08,276 --> 00:27:11,676
Speaker 1: a while I had to be slapped down. How long

465
00:27:11,676 --> 00:27:14,916
Speaker 1: did the recording take tracking, Well, there were you know,

466
00:27:14,996 --> 00:27:18,116
Speaker 1: there were the sessions, which I don't think we took

467
00:27:18,196 --> 00:27:21,636
Speaker 1: much more than two weeks to do the basic sessions.

468
00:27:21,676 --> 00:27:23,356
Speaker 1: But that wasn't the end of it. We had one

469
00:27:23,476 --> 00:27:26,196
Speaker 1: or two other songs to do, which we had to

470
00:27:26,236 --> 00:27:28,396
Speaker 1: do in a studio in New York because they had

471
00:27:28,476 --> 00:27:31,956
Speaker 1: finally finished the control room of studio be at Bearsville

472
00:27:32,116 --> 00:27:35,796
Speaker 1: and they were removing all the equipment into there. So

473
00:27:35,876 --> 00:27:39,036
Speaker 1: we did like WS Walcott Medicine Show, I think it

474
00:27:39,156 --> 00:27:41,876
Speaker 1: was in a session in New York City. And those

475
00:27:41,916 --> 00:27:45,476
Speaker 1: sessions turned out to be actually very productive, you know,

476
00:27:45,636 --> 00:27:49,076
Speaker 1: because people weren't at home. They were away from home.

477
00:27:49,116 --> 00:27:51,796
Speaker 1: They were in New York City. Sometimes in order to

478
00:27:51,836 --> 00:27:58,076
Speaker 1: get that authentically kind of old timey sounds, you know,

479
00:27:58,236 --> 00:28:03,316
Speaker 1: they would well, for instance, I played the baritone horn

480
00:28:03,436 --> 00:28:06,356
Speaker 1: on that song, and I had never played baritone horn

481
00:28:06,436 --> 00:28:10,396
Speaker 1: in my life. All I had to do is squeak

482
00:28:10,436 --> 00:28:13,236
Speaker 1: out enough notes, you know, to make it sound like

483
00:28:13,516 --> 00:28:17,996
Speaker 1: a thing, authentic, rinky dinky, weird band kind of thing.

484
00:28:18,436 --> 00:28:21,796
Speaker 1: It was by lack of experience with the instrument that

485
00:28:21,916 --> 00:28:25,716
Speaker 1: was necessary for this sound authentic. And so you know,

486
00:28:25,756 --> 00:28:27,996
Speaker 1: they'd be the like moments of that, you know, where

487
00:28:27,996 --> 00:28:29,676
Speaker 1: it's like, if you could do it too well, it

488
00:28:29,836 --> 00:28:32,596
Speaker 1: doesn't work. You know. It has to have that sort

489
00:28:32,596 --> 00:28:38,476
Speaker 1: of authentically kind of creaky, slightly sloppy aspect about it.

490
00:28:39,556 --> 00:28:42,276
Speaker 1: Then there was the whole mixing episodes, you know, with

491
00:28:42,476 --> 00:28:48,636
Speaker 1: Glynn doing some and then me doing some, and ultimately

492
00:28:48,676 --> 00:28:52,276
Speaker 1: I came back with the mixes his and mine, and

493
00:28:52,356 --> 00:28:55,116
Speaker 1: they weren't fully satisfied with either. So we started all

494
00:28:55,116 --> 00:28:59,436
Speaker 1: over again in Studio B, a brand new Studio B,

495
00:28:59,556 --> 00:29:02,436
Speaker 1: which nobody really knew what it sounded like, but we

496
00:29:02,556 --> 00:29:07,716
Speaker 1: put our faith in John Stork and and then it

497
00:29:07,836 --> 00:29:10,876
Speaker 1: was just you know, the the worst kind of experience

498
00:29:10,916 --> 00:29:15,596
Speaker 1: for me, which I have you know, which I have

499
00:29:15,756 --> 00:29:18,796
Speaker 1: resolved ever since. You know, in any sort of production,

500
00:29:19,396 --> 00:29:21,716
Speaker 1: don't have the whole band in the room when you're

501
00:29:21,756 --> 00:29:26,476
Speaker 1: building a mix, because people only hear themselves, you know,

502
00:29:26,516 --> 00:29:29,276
Speaker 1: the drumming only hears the drums, the guitar from only

503
00:29:29,316 --> 00:29:32,276
Speaker 1: hears the guitar, you know, especially when you're building a mix,

504
00:29:32,476 --> 00:29:34,956
Speaker 1: you know. And one of the worst was when I

505
00:29:35,076 --> 00:29:39,356
Speaker 1: was mixing the New York Dolls first album. It was

506
00:29:39,396 --> 00:29:41,196
Speaker 1: compounded by the fact that they were in a hurry

507
00:29:41,196 --> 00:29:42,756
Speaker 1: because they had to go to a gig. But it's

508
00:29:42,756 --> 00:29:45,596
Speaker 1: one of these things really just like, no nobody hears

509
00:29:45,636 --> 00:29:49,916
Speaker 1: the whole mix. They only hear themselves, and all the

510
00:29:49,916 --> 00:29:52,036
Speaker 1: faders are pinned at the top, and you have to

511
00:29:52,036 --> 00:29:55,556
Speaker 1: start all over again, you know. And so you know,

512
00:29:56,276 --> 00:29:59,916
Speaker 1: my modus operandi now is like, go away, I will

513
00:29:59,956 --> 00:30:02,036
Speaker 1: build a mix. Then you come back and tell me

514
00:30:02,076 --> 00:30:05,116
Speaker 1: what you want different about it, you know, but don't

515
00:30:05,156 --> 00:30:07,956
Speaker 1: allow them there for the process. Unfortunately, they'd be there

516
00:30:07,996 --> 00:30:10,436
Speaker 1: for the whole mix and it would just take four ever,

517
00:30:10,916 --> 00:30:13,836
Speaker 1: you know, and everyone would have an opinion, you know,

518
00:30:13,996 --> 00:30:17,036
Speaker 1: so it wouldn't make it better, and it wouldn't necessarily

519
00:30:17,036 --> 00:30:19,196
Speaker 1: make it better now, it might take weeks, you know,

520
00:30:19,516 --> 00:30:22,036
Speaker 1: and often that kind of like dwelling on it makes

521
00:30:22,036 --> 00:30:26,836
Speaker 1: it worse. Which is why Andy Partridge hated XTC when

522
00:30:26,836 --> 00:30:31,516
Speaker 1: it was first completed, because I wouldn't allow that to happen.

523
00:30:32,036 --> 00:30:34,796
Speaker 1: I wouldn't allow that anal business to ruin the record.

524
00:30:35,156 --> 00:30:37,436
Speaker 1: You know. It was the first thing I did. I said,

525
00:30:37,436 --> 00:30:39,276
Speaker 1: you're not listening to the mix. I'm going to build

526
00:30:39,276 --> 00:30:41,196
Speaker 1: a mix. Then you can come over and listen to

527
00:30:41,236 --> 00:30:43,156
Speaker 1: the mix. By the time I was done the third one,

528
00:30:43,196 --> 00:30:48,116
Speaker 1: they said we're going home, either because they hated that

529
00:30:48,316 --> 00:30:50,676
Speaker 1: aspect of the process even though they liked the mixes,

530
00:30:52,316 --> 00:30:54,436
Speaker 1: or because they trusted me. Yeah, I didn't one or

531
00:30:54,476 --> 00:30:58,756
Speaker 1: the other. But Andy was already determined to hate the

532
00:30:58,796 --> 00:31:01,236
Speaker 1: record by the time he went home and made a

533
00:31:01,276 --> 00:31:04,196
Speaker 1: point of telling everybody how much he hated the record

534
00:31:04,796 --> 00:31:07,916
Speaker 1: before it came out. And then it turned out to

535
00:31:07,956 --> 00:31:10,956
Speaker 1: be the most successful record they were released. So wow,

536
00:31:11,076 --> 00:31:14,556
Speaker 1: it's amazing. Who would have been your contemporaries at that

537
00:31:14,596 --> 00:31:17,996
Speaker 1: point in time. This was late nineteen sixty six, early

538
00:31:18,116 --> 00:31:20,716
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty seven. What would be on the radio at

539
00:31:20,756 --> 00:31:23,836
Speaker 1: that time. Well, if you wanted to know I'll be

540
00:31:23,876 --> 00:31:26,556
Speaker 1: on the radio, you listen to my album Faithful the

541
00:31:26,636 --> 00:31:30,076
Speaker 1: First Side, because what I tried to do on that

542
00:31:30,396 --> 00:31:35,756
Speaker 1: was that record I did in nineteen seventy six, ten

543
00:31:35,836 --> 00:31:40,036
Speaker 1: years after I first got into the so called music business,

544
00:31:40,596 --> 00:31:42,436
Speaker 1: and it was all covers, and I said, I want

545
00:31:42,476 --> 00:31:44,756
Speaker 1: people to remember what it was like listening to the

546
00:31:44,876 --> 00:31:50,436
Speaker 1: radio in nineteen sixty six. There was Yardbirds happening ten

547
00:31:50,516 --> 00:31:53,716
Speaker 1: years time ago, Bob Dylan. Mostly you go your way

548
00:31:53,716 --> 00:31:58,276
Speaker 1: and I go mine, Rain, the Beatles, Good Vibrations, Beach Boys.

549
00:31:58,396 --> 00:32:00,836
Speaker 1: I just did dead on covers of all those songs

550
00:32:01,276 --> 00:32:04,276
Speaker 1: if six was nine, Jimmy Andris. You know, that was

551
00:32:04,356 --> 00:32:07,756
Speaker 1: just like to me, the golden Age of radio. What's

552
00:32:07,796 --> 00:32:10,636
Speaker 1: happening in music is just more than anybody can keep

553
00:32:10,756 --> 00:32:14,236
Speaker 1: up with. And so suddenly the cuffs are off for DJs.

554
00:32:14,956 --> 00:32:17,596
Speaker 1: They can play anything they want because nobody can figure

555
00:32:17,596 --> 00:32:20,236
Speaker 1: it out anyway, you know how it all goes together.

556
00:32:20,556 --> 00:32:23,636
Speaker 1: And suddenly radio was such an exciting thing to listen

557
00:32:23,676 --> 00:32:26,196
Speaker 1: to because you hear like a rock maybe Beatles song,

558
00:32:26,396 --> 00:32:29,116
Speaker 1: then you hear Judy Collins after that. Then you might

559
00:32:29,156 --> 00:32:33,356
Speaker 1: hear Bill Evans after that they would just it was

560
00:32:33,756 --> 00:32:37,076
Speaker 1: wide open, you know, it was just terrific. It was

561
00:32:37,116 --> 00:32:39,676
Speaker 1: the inception of what they called album oriented radio when

562
00:32:39,676 --> 00:32:43,636
Speaker 1: people started playing not the singles, but you know, the

563
00:32:43,716 --> 00:32:47,836
Speaker 1: cuts from the albums as well. That has all gone

564
00:32:47,876 --> 00:32:52,156
Speaker 1: away and with it that sort of monolithic view of

565
00:32:52,356 --> 00:32:56,156
Speaker 1: what audiences want to hear. And that's how I do

566
00:32:56,276 --> 00:32:58,716
Speaker 1: research for records. I can't, you know, listen to radio.

567
00:32:58,956 --> 00:33:01,916
Speaker 1: I'm afraid I'll hear something I don't want to hear

568
00:33:03,236 --> 00:33:08,076
Speaker 1: stuck in there. So so instead I go to YouTube.

569
00:33:08,556 --> 00:33:10,916
Speaker 1: You know, I asked, I'll I asked one of my kids,

570
00:33:10,916 --> 00:33:12,876
Speaker 1: what should I listen to? Yeah, and it'll give me

571
00:33:12,916 --> 00:33:14,796
Speaker 1: maybe a couple of names, and I'll go to YouTube.

572
00:33:14,996 --> 00:33:17,156
Speaker 1: I'll look it up and then on the sidebar and

573
00:33:17,196 --> 00:33:19,316
Speaker 1: then maybe I'll start clicking the sidebar and say, well,

574
00:33:19,396 --> 00:33:22,916
Speaker 1: who's that? And so just by following these threads is

575
00:33:22,956 --> 00:33:25,716
Speaker 1: how I learn about what's happening in music. And there's

576
00:33:25,756 --> 00:33:28,396
Speaker 1: a lot of music out there that you don't hear

577
00:33:28,436 --> 00:33:31,356
Speaker 1: about unless you go looking for it. But that's different

578
00:33:31,996 --> 00:33:34,396
Speaker 1: from an era when that music would never get made,

579
00:33:35,236 --> 00:33:37,716
Speaker 1: when that music would never get recorded in the first place.

580
00:33:38,556 --> 00:33:40,916
Speaker 1: So to me, this is in some sense as a

581
00:33:40,996 --> 00:33:45,076
Speaker 1: golden age of music, in that whatever you can imagine

582
00:33:45,076 --> 00:33:48,236
Speaker 1: there is, it's out there. And if it isn't out there,

583
00:33:48,276 --> 00:33:50,796
Speaker 1: and you can imagine how to make it, then you

584
00:33:50,836 --> 00:33:54,196
Speaker 1: can put it out there. The entry level is really

585
00:33:54,276 --> 00:33:57,796
Speaker 1: low now, the entry level is freaking zero. Put it

586
00:33:57,956 --> 00:34:00,556
Speaker 1: that way. Yeah, you can get for ninety nine cents

587
00:34:00,556 --> 00:34:02,836
Speaker 1: an app on your phone. It's got four tracks of

588
00:34:02,916 --> 00:34:05,396
Speaker 1: recording on it, and another app that will allow you

589
00:34:05,436 --> 00:34:07,556
Speaker 1: to post it to wherever you want it, and another

590
00:34:07,596 --> 00:34:10,356
Speaker 1: app that'll allow you to tell all your friends where

591
00:34:10,356 --> 00:34:12,796
Speaker 1: it is and how to find it. Yeah, there's really

592
00:34:12,836 --> 00:34:14,596
Speaker 1: no excuse if you want to get into the so

593
00:34:14,676 --> 00:34:17,516
Speaker 1: called music business. Do it. But in the end, you

594
00:34:17,516 --> 00:34:19,436
Speaker 1: won't make any money until you go out and start

595
00:34:19,476 --> 00:34:23,796
Speaker 1: playing it in front of people. Sometimes we'll hear something

596
00:34:24,316 --> 00:34:26,756
Speaker 1: and it will resonate with us and we won't know why.

597
00:34:27,236 --> 00:34:28,716
Speaker 1: Do you know what I'm saying. It's like sometimes like

598
00:34:29,196 --> 00:34:32,916
Speaker 1: can't put your finger on why something's good. Yeah, And

599
00:34:33,036 --> 00:34:35,596
Speaker 1: well it isn't even why it's good, it's why it sticks. Yeah,

600
00:34:35,596 --> 00:34:38,116
Speaker 1: because sometimes it's something you want out of your head.

601
00:34:38,236 --> 00:34:40,276
Speaker 1: That's why I hit the mute button anytime I see

602
00:34:40,556 --> 00:34:42,996
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift. I'm going to hit that mute button right now.

603
00:34:43,236 --> 00:34:45,836
Speaker 1: The same thing goes for like when Donald Trump comes

604
00:34:45,836 --> 00:34:47,436
Speaker 1: on the TV. Though I don't want any of that

605
00:34:47,516 --> 00:34:49,796
Speaker 1: in my head. I hit the mute button. You know,

606
00:34:50,116 --> 00:34:52,516
Speaker 1: do you like curate stuff that comes in I kind

607
00:34:52,516 --> 00:34:54,196
Speaker 1: of do you? Oh? Yeah. There are things that you

608
00:34:54,276 --> 00:34:57,476
Speaker 1: latch onto if you think that you could learn something

609
00:34:57,556 --> 00:35:01,196
Speaker 1: from it, And sometimes they are really illogical things. But

610
00:35:01,796 --> 00:35:03,556
Speaker 1: every once in a while you hear a song and

611
00:35:03,596 --> 00:35:07,236
Speaker 1: you realize that that was the perfect pop song. We'll

612
00:35:07,276 --> 00:35:09,956
Speaker 1: be right back with more from Todd Rundgren after this break.

613
00:35:14,156 --> 00:35:16,956
Speaker 1: We're back with the rest of Rick's conversation with Todd Rudegren.

614
00:35:17,636 --> 00:35:21,036
Speaker 1: Have you always made music either a commercial thing or

615
00:35:21,076 --> 00:35:22,996
Speaker 1: an art project? Do you know what I'm saying, Like,

616
00:35:22,996 --> 00:35:24,916
Speaker 1: when you're starting a project, do you decide, Okay, this

617
00:35:24,956 --> 00:35:26,756
Speaker 1: one is for me and it's going to be artie,

618
00:35:27,076 --> 00:35:28,476
Speaker 1: or this one's going to be I'm gonna try to

619
00:35:28,476 --> 00:35:30,156
Speaker 1: get something on the radio and I'm gonna go in

620
00:35:30,196 --> 00:35:33,156
Speaker 1: that direction. Well, I don't. I tend to think that way.

621
00:35:33,196 --> 00:35:36,116
Speaker 1: When I'm producing for other people. I want to understand

622
00:35:36,156 --> 00:35:38,796
Speaker 1: what their goals are so that I can try and

623
00:35:38,836 --> 00:35:42,556
Speaker 1: guide things in that direction, and it isn't always necessarily

624
00:35:42,556 --> 00:35:46,036
Speaker 1: commercial success. That's like when I did Grand Funk Railroad,

625
00:35:46,036 --> 00:35:50,916
Speaker 1: they wanted critical acclaim, you know, because the critics just

626
00:35:50,996 --> 00:35:53,156
Speaker 1: hated them. What stage were they at in that career

627
00:35:53,196 --> 00:35:55,636
Speaker 1: when you came up with them, Well, they were a

628
00:35:55,716 --> 00:35:58,636
Speaker 1: jam band, you know, essentially a jam band. They were like,

629
00:35:58,716 --> 00:36:02,196
Speaker 1: we're like cream, you know, We're a trio based guitar

630
00:36:02,236 --> 00:36:04,916
Speaker 1: and drums, and we go out and we have flimsy

631
00:36:04,956 --> 00:36:07,876
Speaker 1: little song structures and then we jam a lot, you know.

632
00:36:08,516 --> 00:36:10,996
Speaker 1: And albums were kind of the same way. They would

633
00:36:11,036 --> 00:36:15,396
Speaker 1: just be kind of flabby, long songs occasionally something you know,

634
00:36:15,516 --> 00:36:20,716
Speaker 1: concise and songwriterly. Their issue was that their manager Terry

635
00:36:20,796 --> 00:36:23,196
Speaker 1: Knight from Terry and the Pack. I don't know if

636
00:36:23,196 --> 00:36:26,236
Speaker 1: you remember them, but as one of these Michigan bands

637
00:36:26,396 --> 00:36:30,156
Speaker 1: from the scene that produced Bob Seger and Ted Nugent

638
00:36:30,276 --> 00:36:33,356
Speaker 1: that produced Grand Funk Railroad as well. But their manager

639
00:36:33,436 --> 00:36:38,196
Speaker 1: was Terry Knight, and he was great from the standpoint of,

640
00:36:38,276 --> 00:36:41,836
Speaker 1: you know, hyping the bands. Everybody knew who Graham Funk

641
00:36:41,916 --> 00:36:44,916
Speaker 1: Railroad was. He bought the biggest billboard that had ever

642
00:36:44,956 --> 00:36:49,276
Speaker 1: been purchased on Broadway in Times Square. This was a

643
00:36:49,316 --> 00:36:54,516
Speaker 1: big thing that only made their reputation more controversial because

644
00:36:55,076 --> 00:36:57,076
Speaker 1: music critics said, what are they doing up there? You know,

645
00:36:57,156 --> 00:36:59,916
Speaker 1: they're not the fricking Beatles, you know, they're just a

646
00:37:00,036 --> 00:37:03,756
Speaker 1: jam band. And they made the decision at a certain

647
00:37:03,756 --> 00:37:05,876
Speaker 1: point to break away from Terry Knight. The other thing

648
00:37:05,956 --> 00:37:07,756
Speaker 1: Terry Knight did was produce their records, and he was

649
00:37:07,796 --> 00:37:11,556
Speaker 1: a terrible record producer. You know, they sounded bad, and

650
00:37:11,596 --> 00:37:14,836
Speaker 1: he didn't editorialize at anything. You know, I just let

651
00:37:14,916 --> 00:37:20,836
Speaker 1: them jam away. So they had kind of the success

652
00:37:20,956 --> 00:37:23,796
Speaker 1: and an audience, and the one thing they didn't have

653
00:37:24,116 --> 00:37:27,516
Speaker 1: was credibility. That's one reason why they came to me

654
00:37:27,636 --> 00:37:33,116
Speaker 1: because my reputation at that point was taking projects that had,

655
00:37:33,116 --> 00:37:36,316
Speaker 1: like for instance, Bad Finger, where like they were on

656
00:37:36,396 --> 00:37:40,716
Speaker 1: their third try at making a record. If it required

657
00:37:40,756 --> 00:37:43,316
Speaker 1: me to just go in and completely take over the process,

658
00:37:43,356 --> 00:37:44,836
Speaker 1: I would do that. But I figured I'm not going

659
00:37:44,916 --> 00:37:47,316
Speaker 1: to be the third producer to fail to get an

660
00:37:47,316 --> 00:37:51,116
Speaker 1: album out of Bad Finger. So, for better or worse,

661
00:37:51,356 --> 00:37:53,276
Speaker 1: they got what they needed out of it. They got

662
00:37:53,316 --> 00:37:55,396
Speaker 1: a record that had two hit singles off of it,

663
00:37:55,436 --> 00:37:58,636
Speaker 1: and they got the success out of it. They fired

664
00:37:58,676 --> 00:38:00,956
Speaker 1: me after the next record and never had another hit.

665
00:38:01,276 --> 00:38:06,436
Speaker 1: So and so the thing with Grand Funk was, we,

666
00:38:06,556 --> 00:38:09,316
Speaker 1: you know, we need credibility somehow. We need somebody who

667
00:38:09,356 --> 00:38:12,156
Speaker 1: knows how to make records to get involved in our

668
00:38:12,196 --> 00:38:15,356
Speaker 1: next record. And they had everything all planned out beforehand.

669
00:38:15,396 --> 00:38:18,276
Speaker 1: They had already written We're an American band because they knew, okay,

670
00:38:18,316 --> 00:38:22,636
Speaker 1: we need a single, and I helped him arrange it,

671
00:38:22,796 --> 00:38:24,876
Speaker 1: you know, so that just sounded more singly, So it

672
00:38:24,916 --> 00:38:27,236
Speaker 1: sounded less like a jam band more like, you know,

673
00:38:27,676 --> 00:38:30,876
Speaker 1: a single. They had hired a keyboard player, made their

674
00:38:30,876 --> 00:38:34,356
Speaker 1: sound a little bit bigger and more well rounded. But

675
00:38:34,476 --> 00:38:37,236
Speaker 1: I remember he was very indignant about the fact that

676
00:38:37,276 --> 00:38:39,276
Speaker 1: I made him do this. Dink think think think think

677
00:38:39,356 --> 00:38:42,836
Speaker 1: think we're kink think think think Think. He said, wait

678
00:38:42,836 --> 00:38:45,236
Speaker 1: a minute, I'm a keyboard anybody can do that. You know,

679
00:38:45,556 --> 00:38:49,356
Speaker 1: that's as much what makes it a hit record as anything.

680
00:38:49,396 --> 00:38:51,916
Speaker 1: It's just that little dink think think coming into the chorus.

681
00:38:52,316 --> 00:38:54,396
Speaker 1: You know, when you heard the song for the first time,

682
00:38:54,476 --> 00:38:57,276
Speaker 1: did you know that it had potential. I knew they'd

683
00:38:57,196 --> 00:38:59,596
Speaker 1: have had potential, but I never depend on the market,

684
00:38:59,636 --> 00:39:03,236
Speaker 1: you know, I know that's a single. But then someone

685
00:39:03,316 --> 00:39:05,676
Speaker 1: so puts out a single the same week and everyone

686
00:39:05,716 --> 00:39:09,236
Speaker 1: forgets about your single. It's that kind of business there.

687
00:39:09,356 --> 00:39:12,676
Speaker 1: It's still a lot of chance. Even in those days,

688
00:39:12,756 --> 00:39:15,516
Speaker 1: there was a lot of crooked stuff that went on.

689
00:39:15,836 --> 00:39:18,876
Speaker 1: This was even before Clyde Davis got busted. You can't

690
00:39:18,956 --> 00:39:21,796
Speaker 1: guarantee anything, but they were so confident about it, and

691
00:39:21,796 --> 00:39:26,076
Speaker 1: then the label was totally behind the plan. So the

692
00:39:26,196 --> 00:39:28,156
Speaker 1: very first thing we did is we went to Criterion

693
00:39:28,276 --> 00:39:30,956
Speaker 1: Studios and we recorded We're an American Band the track

694
00:39:31,036 --> 00:39:33,876
Speaker 1: the first day. We got all the sounds. The first

695
00:39:33,956 --> 00:39:36,596
Speaker 1: day we recorded the track. I don't mess around with

696
00:39:36,636 --> 00:39:39,156
Speaker 1: the sounds all day long. Sound is the most subjective

697
00:39:39,196 --> 00:39:42,516
Speaker 1: part of the process. People think when they hear a

698
00:39:42,556 --> 00:39:44,876
Speaker 1: record for the first time that you intended for it

699
00:39:44,916 --> 00:39:47,596
Speaker 1: to sound that way, and that's the only way that

700
00:39:47,676 --> 00:39:50,476
Speaker 1: it possibly could have sounded. Of course, when you're making

701
00:39:50,476 --> 00:39:53,636
Speaker 1: the record, you have all the range of possibilities and

702
00:39:53,676 --> 00:39:57,316
Speaker 1: you can analyze it to death, you know, as has

703
00:39:57,356 --> 00:40:01,636
Speaker 1: happened in some projects. But in any case, very early

704
00:40:01,676 --> 00:40:04,756
Speaker 1: in the next day's session we finished it and then

705
00:40:04,756 --> 00:40:08,156
Speaker 1: when right into the mastering room because they had announced

706
00:40:08,156 --> 00:40:11,756
Speaker 1: the release a week later. A week after we went

707
00:40:11,796 --> 00:40:13,996
Speaker 1: in to record the song. That was supposed to be

708
00:40:14,036 --> 00:40:17,756
Speaker 1: the official release date of the song, and lo and behold.

709
00:40:17,756 --> 00:40:20,596
Speaker 1: Because of the way the industry was in those days,

710
00:40:21,036 --> 00:40:24,676
Speaker 1: if you had enough radio as and enough pre orders

711
00:40:24,876 --> 00:40:28,676
Speaker 1: on the single, you charted. A week later, the single

712
00:40:28,716 --> 00:40:32,396
Speaker 1: comes out and it charts in the twenties. Wow, a

713
00:40:32,476 --> 00:40:35,556
Speaker 1: week later, after a week after we recorded it. You know,

714
00:40:36,116 --> 00:40:39,036
Speaker 1: nobody's even heard it yet. Didn't take that much longer

715
00:40:39,316 --> 00:40:41,436
Speaker 1: for us to get the album done than what, you know,

716
00:40:41,516 --> 00:40:44,516
Speaker 1: the album's you know, a big giant hit. Now that

717
00:40:44,556 --> 00:40:47,156
Speaker 1: doesn't happen a whole lot, but it's just not the

718
00:40:47,236 --> 00:40:49,356
Speaker 1: kind of thing that you can depend on, you know.

719
00:40:49,396 --> 00:40:51,676
Speaker 1: I mean there's a complete opposite end of the spectrum,

720
00:40:51,676 --> 00:40:54,636
Speaker 1: which was meat Loaf, the opposite of like that confidence

721
00:40:54,636 --> 00:40:56,196
Speaker 1: and knowing what you're gonna doing. You had to have

722
00:40:56,236 --> 00:41:00,036
Speaker 1: a master plan, you know, to accomplish it. Meat Loaf,

723
00:41:00,236 --> 00:41:02,596
Speaker 1: on the other hand, was just a crapshoot through the

724
00:41:02,756 --> 00:41:07,876
Speaker 1: entire thing, even though by that album, because any time

725
00:41:08,156 --> 00:41:12,236
Speaker 1: an anomaly breaks through, it's really interesting to me. Yeah,

726
00:41:12,236 --> 00:41:15,716
Speaker 1: and that there's nothing else like that. Whatever that is,

727
00:41:16,756 --> 00:41:20,556
Speaker 1: it's very unique. It's unlike other music going on at

728
00:41:20,556 --> 00:41:24,156
Speaker 1: the time. Well, it was not completely unlike other music

729
00:41:24,236 --> 00:41:26,276
Speaker 1: that was going on at the time, because when I

730
00:41:26,316 --> 00:41:29,876
Speaker 1: went to see meat Loaf, I knew who meat Loaf was.

731
00:41:29,916 --> 00:41:32,116
Speaker 1: I had seen him on the Rocky Horror Show. I

732
00:41:32,196 --> 00:41:34,916
Speaker 1: knew who he was. I didn't know who Stimon was.

733
00:41:35,076 --> 00:41:38,116
Speaker 1: Stimon actually the genius behind the whole thing. But they

734
00:41:38,156 --> 00:41:41,356
Speaker 1: did a live audition for me, Stimon on the piano,

735
00:41:41,396 --> 00:41:43,796
Speaker 1: meat Loaf and two background singers and essentially did the

736
00:41:43,956 --> 00:41:47,516
Speaker 1: entire record with piano accompaniment, but did all of the

737
00:41:47,596 --> 00:41:51,196
Speaker 1: highlights of the record, acted out with everything, with the historionics,

738
00:41:51,236 --> 00:41:55,476
Speaker 1: paradise and dashboard light and all that stuff. And while

739
00:41:55,516 --> 00:41:57,756
Speaker 1: I'm watching it, you know, and they're giving me the

740
00:41:57,876 --> 00:42:00,276
Speaker 1: sob story. They said, no producer wants to touch this,

741
00:42:00,636 --> 00:42:03,876
Speaker 1: the concept is too big. No producer really wanted to

742
00:42:03,916 --> 00:42:06,116
Speaker 1: deal with it. And so they're doing this for me.

743
00:42:06,156 --> 00:42:09,396
Speaker 1: And in my head, I'm thinking this is a of

744
00:42:09,436 --> 00:42:16,356
Speaker 1: Bruce Springsteen. It's all the same, you know, Airstat's fifties stuff,

745
00:42:16,396 --> 00:42:20,356
Speaker 1: you know, with motorcycles, switch blaze, leather jackets, all that

746
00:42:20,716 --> 00:42:24,316
Speaker 1: rebel without a cause iconography, and I'm thinking this is

747
00:42:24,316 --> 00:42:26,636
Speaker 1: a spoof of Bruce Springsteen and that's how I'm going

748
00:42:26,716 --> 00:42:29,716
Speaker 1: to approach it. And he had a label at the time.

749
00:42:29,716 --> 00:42:31,916
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have taken it on unless he had a label.

750
00:42:31,956 --> 00:42:34,196
Speaker 1: But the day before we went into the studio and

751
00:42:34,236 --> 00:42:37,196
Speaker 1: we had rehearsed the band for two weeks already, you know,

752
00:42:37,276 --> 00:42:38,756
Speaker 1: we were ready to just go in there and do

753
00:42:38,796 --> 00:42:41,596
Speaker 1: it live, which the record was mostly live, not the singing,

754
00:42:41,676 --> 00:42:43,756
Speaker 1: but all of them playing on It was mostly all live.

755
00:42:44,276 --> 00:42:46,356
Speaker 1: Meet Loof says, I want to go off my label.

756
00:42:46,356 --> 00:42:48,916
Speaker 1: They don't understand me, and he said, whatever it says.

757
00:42:48,956 --> 00:42:51,476
Speaker 1: I said, well, I'm not your manager. I can't you know,

758
00:42:52,116 --> 00:42:53,476
Speaker 1: tell you what to do. But you know we're going

759
00:42:53,476 --> 00:42:57,276
Speaker 1: into the studio tomorrow, and he says, well, I got

760
00:42:57,356 --> 00:43:00,316
Speaker 1: to get off my label, you know, So I go

761
00:43:00,476 --> 00:43:04,156
Speaker 1: to it was either Paul Fishkin or Albert Krossman, you know,

762
00:43:04,356 --> 00:43:08,236
Speaker 1: was running Bearsville at the time. And I said, well,

763
00:43:08,236 --> 00:43:11,356
Speaker 1: if you put this, it's too late. Now we're already rehearsed.

764
00:43:11,956 --> 00:43:14,876
Speaker 1: We actually got members of Springsteen's band, We got Roy

765
00:43:14,956 --> 00:43:18,676
Speaker 1: Bitten and Max Weinberg are in the bands. You know,

766
00:43:18,836 --> 00:43:20,476
Speaker 1: this is how much of a spoof it is to me?

767
00:43:21,116 --> 00:43:23,156
Speaker 1: And I say, well, put this on my tab, you know,

768
00:43:23,276 --> 00:43:25,756
Speaker 1: underwrite the expenses like you would a regular record, and

769
00:43:25,836 --> 00:43:28,836
Speaker 1: we'll give you right a first refusal on the record.

770
00:43:29,516 --> 00:43:33,156
Speaker 1: We finished the record and Bearsville turns it down, as

771
00:43:33,196 --> 00:43:37,316
Speaker 1: does Warner Brothers, who's distributing Bearsville, And it takes six

772
00:43:37,356 --> 00:43:40,756
Speaker 1: months to find somebody to take the record. They shop

773
00:43:40,756 --> 00:43:43,796
Speaker 1: it around everybody and everyone said, what is this, you know,

774
00:43:44,236 --> 00:43:48,196
Speaker 1: a spoof of Bruce Briestein. And finally they find a

775
00:43:48,556 --> 00:43:53,156
Speaker 1: you know, a small subsidiary of Epic Records called Cleveland International,

776
00:43:53,916 --> 00:43:58,116
Speaker 1: and they have one act on the label. Ian Hunter

777
00:43:58,276 --> 00:44:01,236
Speaker 1: is the only act they have on the label. Great guy,

778
00:44:01,276 --> 00:44:03,476
Speaker 1: a great player. I should call him for a collab.

779
00:44:04,396 --> 00:44:07,076
Speaker 1: You were the first person I ever heard talk about

780
00:44:07,236 --> 00:44:13,276
Speaker 1: the revolution in the way music is consumed, maybe as

781
00:44:13,316 --> 00:44:16,356
Speaker 1: far back as the late seventies to how it is today.

782
00:44:17,116 --> 00:44:20,996
Speaker 1: If you look back at the things that allowed you

783
00:44:21,076 --> 00:44:25,156
Speaker 1: to understand what was possible, were there any forks in

784
00:44:25,196 --> 00:44:29,676
Speaker 1: the road where it went either a different way than

785
00:44:29,716 --> 00:44:31,996
Speaker 1: you thought it was going to go, or had a

786
00:44:31,996 --> 00:44:36,396
Speaker 1: potential to do something better than it did. I put

787
00:44:36,436 --> 00:44:39,396
Speaker 1: out a thing called No World Order. It came out

788
00:44:39,436 --> 00:44:41,916
Speaker 1: in the late eighties, and it came out in the

789
00:44:42,036 --> 00:44:46,836
Speaker 1: number of different formats, and it was the first example

790
00:44:46,876 --> 00:44:50,156
Speaker 1: if you had the right device of actual interactive music,

791
00:44:50,476 --> 00:44:53,756
Speaker 1: music that you, as a listener could get some control over.

792
00:44:54,196 --> 00:44:57,676
Speaker 1: I came up with the concept through a number of things,

793
00:44:58,156 --> 00:45:01,596
Speaker 1: but it was not driven at first by the technology.

794
00:45:02,356 --> 00:45:06,876
Speaker 1: It was driven by the realization that, first of all,

795
00:45:06,996 --> 00:45:13,196
Speaker 1: music is ultimately going to be repeated, That music is

796
00:45:13,236 --> 00:45:16,076
Speaker 1: too limited a language that for us to be like

797
00:45:16,156 --> 00:45:18,836
Speaker 1: completely original all the time, you know, so it's just

798
00:45:18,996 --> 00:45:22,396
Speaker 1: bound to be repeated. The audience no longer is attached

799
00:45:22,436 --> 00:45:24,716
Speaker 1: to a particular form of it. And there were two

800
00:45:24,756 --> 00:45:30,236
Speaker 1: phenomenon that caused me to realize that. One was Frankie

801
00:45:30,316 --> 00:45:34,116
Speaker 1: goes to Hollywood Relax. It didn't happen in this country.

802
00:45:34,156 --> 00:45:36,876
Speaker 1: It never became like the giant hit in this country

803
00:45:36,916 --> 00:45:40,676
Speaker 1: that it was, for instance, in England. But suddenly, you know,

804
00:45:40,796 --> 00:45:43,676
Speaker 1: innovation had moved back to England and Europe and stuff

805
00:45:43,716 --> 00:45:46,316
Speaker 1: at its particular point in the mid to late eighties,

806
00:45:46,716 --> 00:45:49,676
Speaker 1: and they released a new version of Relax like every

807
00:45:49,716 --> 00:45:53,076
Speaker 1: two weeks, a new remix of Relax every two weeks,

808
00:45:53,316 --> 00:45:55,276
Speaker 1: and everyone they released would go to the top of

809
00:45:55,276 --> 00:45:59,596
Speaker 1: the charts. And I suddenly realized now the audiences is

810
00:45:59,836 --> 00:46:03,236
Speaker 1: accepting the mutability of music, that it doesn't have to

811
00:46:03,276 --> 00:46:05,916
Speaker 1: be this way and that's sacred, and you know it

812
00:46:05,956 --> 00:46:08,636
Speaker 1: can't be any other way. Now that we realize this,

813
00:46:08,876 --> 00:46:11,716
Speaker 1: how can we accelerate this process? How can we actually

814
00:46:11,876 --> 00:46:15,356
Speaker 1: define it and make tools to do it and put

815
00:46:15,356 --> 00:46:17,956
Speaker 1: them in people's hands. And that's when I came up

816
00:46:18,276 --> 00:46:22,196
Speaker 1: with the idea of an album that didn't have a

817
00:46:22,316 --> 00:46:26,356
Speaker 1: specific running order, and that was no world order, and

818
00:46:26,436 --> 00:46:30,196
Speaker 1: it required a certain technology for it to be ultimately realized,

819
00:46:30,476 --> 00:46:34,596
Speaker 1: but also it could be realized in non interactive technologies,

820
00:46:34,596 --> 00:46:36,876
Speaker 1: but in a number of ways. But I wrote the

821
00:46:36,916 --> 00:46:41,236
Speaker 1: songs and with a certain discipline. There had to be

822
00:46:41,276 --> 00:46:44,556
Speaker 1: a clean break every four to eight bars, or maybe

823
00:46:44,556 --> 00:46:46,956
Speaker 1: every two bars. But there had to be clean breaks

824
00:46:46,956 --> 00:46:50,556
Speaker 1: in the music everywhere, you know, so there are not

825
00:46:50,596 --> 00:46:52,756
Speaker 1: a lot of songs with like syncopation, with a lot

826
00:46:52,796 --> 00:46:54,916
Speaker 1: of upbeats, you know, a lot of it's got lots

827
00:46:54,916 --> 00:46:58,956
Speaker 1: of downbeats and stuff like that. And essentially record it

828
00:46:59,156 --> 00:47:01,796
Speaker 1: like you usually would, but in the compositional part, you

829
00:47:01,836 --> 00:47:04,596
Speaker 1: make sure you've got these breaks, then come up with

830
00:47:04,596 --> 00:47:06,916
Speaker 1: the technology by which you can string them together in

831
00:47:06,956 --> 00:47:11,396
Speaker 1: real time and found Philips CDI had just come out

832
00:47:11,436 --> 00:47:14,116
Speaker 1: and the technology was in it to enable to do that.

833
00:47:14,196 --> 00:47:16,636
Speaker 1: So I got together with a programmer that I was

834
00:47:16,676 --> 00:47:18,676
Speaker 1: working with, and we came up with the no World

835
00:47:18,756 --> 00:47:22,236
Speaker 1: Order concept, the whole engine that ran it. That allowed

836
00:47:22,276 --> 00:47:25,916
Speaker 1: people to essentially go in and specify how they'd like

837
00:47:25,996 --> 00:47:29,356
Speaker 1: to experience the music, and even like stop and loop

838
00:47:29,396 --> 00:47:32,236
Speaker 1: on one piece of the music and change the parameters

839
00:47:32,236 --> 00:47:34,676
Speaker 1: and that one piece of music. So say, I never

840
00:47:34,676 --> 00:47:37,236
Speaker 1: did understand what the words were there, Let's take out

841
00:47:37,276 --> 00:47:40,516
Speaker 1: some of the instruments. And so it allowed you to

842
00:47:41,076 --> 00:47:44,116
Speaker 1: experience it in that way. It allowed you to utilize

843
00:47:44,156 --> 00:47:47,396
Speaker 1: it or filter it so that let's say you want

844
00:47:47,436 --> 00:47:50,356
Speaker 1: to use it for your aerobics, you said it, so

845
00:47:50,436 --> 00:47:52,676
Speaker 1: it never goes below a certain tempo. As you asked

846
00:47:52,676 --> 00:47:55,756
Speaker 1: me about the fork in the road. Yes, After I

847
00:47:55,796 --> 00:48:00,556
Speaker 1: did this, I got approached by Time Warner Cable Network,

848
00:48:00,636 --> 00:48:04,516
Speaker 1: which was doing an interactive TV experiment in Orlando, Florida,

849
00:48:04,636 --> 00:48:07,276
Speaker 1: in a neighborhood. But they had fiber optic to the

850
00:48:07,316 --> 00:48:11,516
Speaker 1: curve in the entire optic neighborhood, which is not unusual anymore,

851
00:48:11,556 --> 00:48:14,396
Speaker 1: but in those days a big deal in the neighborhood

852
00:48:14,476 --> 00:48:17,876
Speaker 1: had a prototype set top box that was supposed to

853
00:48:17,876 --> 00:48:21,636
Speaker 1: be an interactive box, and since they were still prototyping

854
00:48:21,636 --> 00:48:26,396
Speaker 1: the box, everyone got an SGI Indigo computer. And if

855
00:48:26,396 --> 00:48:28,636
Speaker 1: you're not into computer graphs, you may not know what

856
00:48:28,756 --> 00:48:31,316
Speaker 1: that is, but it's about the size of a carry

857
00:48:31,356 --> 00:48:34,356
Speaker 1: on suitcase. And they're trying to figure out, okay, what

858
00:48:34,476 --> 00:48:37,876
Speaker 1: kind of services do people want pre Internet? It's just

859
00:48:37,996 --> 00:48:40,476
Speaker 1: pre Internet now people don't have Internet in their homes yet.

860
00:48:40,716 --> 00:48:45,676
Speaker 1: So they figured, okay, we'll develop a pizza pie application.

861
00:48:45,876 --> 00:48:48,036
Speaker 1: You know, you can go on your television, pick out

862
00:48:48,076 --> 00:48:50,676
Speaker 1: your toppings, you know, and a piece of will be

863
00:48:50,796 --> 00:48:55,636
Speaker 1: delivered with your toppings. But they had reasonable query what

864
00:48:55,756 --> 00:48:59,556
Speaker 1: kind of interactive music services would people like in their homes.

865
00:48:59,876 --> 00:49:02,276
Speaker 1: So they hired me to come up with a prototype

866
00:49:02,316 --> 00:49:04,396
Speaker 1: so that they could make it part of this experiment.

867
00:49:04,996 --> 00:49:08,156
Speaker 1: So we came up with an outline for it, impossible

868
00:49:08,236 --> 00:49:10,916
Speaker 1: technological solution for it. But of course you can't do

869
00:49:10,956 --> 00:49:15,076
Speaker 1: it unless you got some music on servers. So we

870
00:49:15,156 --> 00:49:18,356
Speaker 1: went to what was then the Five Majors. So we

871
00:49:18,436 --> 00:49:21,436
Speaker 1: set up meetings with all the special products divisions of

872
00:49:21,516 --> 00:49:24,156
Speaker 1: the labels, and we went in and say we're just

873
00:49:24,196 --> 00:49:26,156
Speaker 1: experimenting here. We want to see what kind of demand

874
00:49:26,236 --> 00:49:28,316
Speaker 1: there is. So what you got to do is you

875
00:49:28,356 --> 00:49:31,316
Speaker 1: got to put some music that people would be interested in,

876
00:49:31,836 --> 00:49:34,996
Speaker 1: some name artists or something, some artists of some kind,

877
00:49:35,236 --> 00:49:37,196
Speaker 1: and put their music on a server so that we

878
00:49:37,236 --> 00:49:40,996
Speaker 1: can connect to it and deliver it to this particular audience,

879
00:49:41,556 --> 00:49:45,156
Speaker 1: this experimental audience. Not a single label would hear of it.

880
00:49:46,236 --> 00:49:49,316
Speaker 1: They say, we know, we don't even don't la la la,

881
00:49:50,756 --> 00:49:56,196
Speaker 1: don't talk about this two years later, napster later. So

882
00:49:56,356 --> 00:49:59,516
Speaker 1: I had gone in with the hope that somehow the

883
00:49:59,596 --> 00:50:03,836
Speaker 1: labels would see the light and ease everything into this

884
00:50:04,676 --> 00:50:08,876
Speaker 1: new area instead of it just collapsing into chaos, which

885
00:50:09,556 --> 00:50:12,356
Speaker 1: is essentially what has done. And they're only now figuring

886
00:50:12,396 --> 00:50:15,036
Speaker 1: out how do we recover from this? What is the

887
00:50:15,116 --> 00:50:17,396
Speaker 1: role of the record label now in all of this,

888
00:50:18,076 --> 00:50:21,156
Speaker 1: given that artists can do everything themselves. The thing that

889
00:50:21,236 --> 00:50:24,916
Speaker 1: surprised me about the streaming revolution when it happened, I

890
00:50:24,956 --> 00:50:27,556
Speaker 1: was really excited about it, and I just imagined as

891
00:50:27,596 --> 00:50:32,476
Speaker 1: a real fanatical fan of music and going to the

892
00:50:32,516 --> 00:50:34,756
Speaker 1: record store every day and walking around the record stores

893
00:50:34,756 --> 00:50:37,476
Speaker 1: and just wanting to hear everything. The idea of living

894
00:50:37,476 --> 00:50:40,396
Speaker 1: in the record store where everything was always available on

895
00:50:40,436 --> 00:50:44,476
Speaker 1: demand when you want. It seemed like just the greatest

896
00:50:44,636 --> 00:50:48,356
Speaker 1: thing that could ever happen. And I thought I would

897
00:50:48,356 --> 00:50:51,436
Speaker 1: want a DJ all day. And what I've come to

898
00:50:51,556 --> 00:50:56,116
Speaker 1: learn now that it's here is that actually, I really

899
00:50:56,156 --> 00:50:59,476
Speaker 1: like being DJ two, and I spend much more time

900
00:50:59,556 --> 00:51:04,476
Speaker 1: listening to curated music than picking what I want to

901
00:51:04,476 --> 00:51:08,196
Speaker 1: listen to. I like the surprise of what comes next.

902
00:51:08,436 --> 00:51:10,356
Speaker 1: You already know what you want to listen to. Yeah,

903
00:51:10,436 --> 00:51:12,516
Speaker 1: such things that you didn't know were there, that you

904
00:51:12,556 --> 00:51:16,196
Speaker 1: didn't know you wanted to listen to, you know, And yeah,

905
00:51:16,236 --> 00:51:19,676
Speaker 1: those are the things that I try and find if

906
00:51:19,756 --> 00:51:23,556
Speaker 1: I'm doing any research for where to move my own music. Well,

907
00:51:23,596 --> 00:51:26,236
Speaker 1: thank you for doing this. Oh well done? Okay cool.

908
00:51:28,996 --> 00:51:31,236
Speaker 1: Thanks the tot Runagren for chatting with Rick about his

909
00:51:31,316 --> 00:51:33,596
Speaker 1: past and present work. You can turn out his new

910
00:51:33,636 --> 00:51:36,636
Speaker 1: song with Sparks called Your Fandango, along with all of

911
00:51:36,636 --> 00:51:40,516
Speaker 1: our favorite Runagren songs at Broken Record podcast dot com.

912
00:51:40,636 --> 00:51:43,316
Speaker 1: Be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel at YouTube

913
00:51:43,356 --> 00:51:46,636
Speaker 1: dot com slash broken record Podcast, where you can find

914
00:51:46,716 --> 00:51:49,396
Speaker 1: all of our new episodes. You can follow us on

915
00:51:49,396 --> 00:51:52,396
Speaker 1: Twitter at broken Record, broken Record It's produced with help

916
00:51:52,436 --> 00:51:56,956
Speaker 1: from Leah Rose, Jason Gambrel, Ben Holiday, Eric Sandler, and

917
00:51:57,076 --> 00:52:01,436
Speaker 1: Jennifer Sanchez, with engineering help from Nick Chafee. Our executive

918
00:52:01,436 --> 00:52:05,636
Speaker 1: producer is Melabell. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin

919
00:52:05,676 --> 00:52:08,716
Speaker 1: Industries and if you like this show, please remember to share, rate,

920
00:52:08,756 --> 00:52:11,796
Speaker 1: and review us on your podcast app Our theme mus

921
00:52:11,796 --> 00:52:19,036
Speaker 1: expect Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond, h