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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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Speaker 1: Or showed us an email at trust Me pod at

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Speaker 1: gmail dot com.

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Speaker 2: Trust Me.

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Speaker 1: Trust Me.

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Speaker 2: I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 3: I've never lived. To you, I've never had a live.

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Speaker 4: If you think that one person has all the answers,

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Speaker 4: don't welcome to trust Me the podcast about cult, extreme

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Speaker 4: belief and manipulation from two great listeners who've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 2: I'm Lola Blanc.

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Speaker 5: And I'm Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 2: And this week is part two of our interview with

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Speaker 2: Andrea Dunlop, sister of a perpetrator of medical child abuse

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Speaker 2: also known as lunch House in My Proxy, and this

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Speaker 2: week's episode, we'll discuss the red flags and behaviors that

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Speaker 2: made her family realize what was going on. Y CPS

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Speaker 2: showed up at her sister's door the seventy three thousand

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Speaker 2: pages of medical records she found for her five year

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Speaker 2: old niece and why it's extremely common for victims to

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Speaker 2: not be separated from perpetrators even after authorities know what's

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Speaker 2: going on.

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Speaker 1: We'll also talk about the documentary Take Care of Maya,

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Speaker 1: why she believes it's misleading storytelling after heavily researching the

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Speaker 1: stories for a season of her podcast No One Should

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Speaker 1: Believe Me and finding an abundance of evidence that was

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Speaker 1: not included in the film, and also how there are

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Speaker 1: some prominent figures who try to claim MCA isn't real,

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Speaker 1: and what gives her hope before we talk to her.

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Speaker 2: Well, one, I want to know your cultiest thing, and

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Speaker 2: two I feel like we should talk about take Care

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Speaker 2: of Maya. But let's start with your coldiest things.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, let's combine the two.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So my coldiest thing of the week is that

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Speaker 1: I have been looking into this celebrity culture of drug

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Speaker 1: treatment and how there's institutions that are taking a ton

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Speaker 1: of money. They're spreading this belief that you don't have

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Speaker 1: to actually quit drugs, you just have to do less

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Speaker 1: of them. And then sober companions are kind of making

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Speaker 1: a ton of money through these avenues and aren't even

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Speaker 1: making you be sober.

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Speaker 5: Theed like driving with you to get the drugs.

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Speaker 1: And it becomes this huge money cultish thing and then

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Speaker 1: there's a little sprinklings, just rumors as of now. And

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Speaker 1: I'm sure many on his team were great, but like

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Speaker 1: the Matthew Perry situation, there's all these police investigations opening

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Speaker 1: into the ways that this could go wrong.

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Speaker 5: So interesting stuff, very sad.

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Speaker 2: Tell me what a sober companion is, because I don't

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Speaker 2: I've never I don't know that.

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Speaker 3: Oh.

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Speaker 1: Really, it's somebody that you pay to spend time with

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Speaker 1: you to make sure allegedly that you don't use. But

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Speaker 1: in these new are not even new these programs, they say, well,

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Speaker 1: it'll be somebody that'll go with you when you use

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Speaker 1: to make sure you don't know.

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Speaker 3: Deed, like a harm reduction thing.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, right.

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Speaker 2: Oh that's so interesting. I'd be curious to learn more

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Speaker 2: about that. You know, we've talked about it before, we

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Speaker 2: talked about it just the other week. Like there's so

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Speaker 2: much out there that is just like a money making scheme,

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Speaker 2: praying on people who desperately need to get sober to

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Speaker 2: you know, fix our lives or just straight up not die.

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Speaker 2: It's really the wild West. Still, it's so shocking. Every

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Speaker 2: new thing I learned. I'm like, how is there not

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Speaker 2: standardized care? How is that allowed? But it's still such

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Speaker 2: early days for research, so I guess it also makes

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Speaker 2: sense because that's how it works. The early days are always.

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Speaker 5: Crazy, exactly exactly.

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Speaker 1: Side note, the girl that Matthew Perry left all of

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Speaker 1: his stuff too was also raised in My smallish cult

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Speaker 1: weird small world, the small world, really small world.

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Speaker 5: So before we.

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Speaker 1: Go into this episode, which is fascinating, what do we

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Speaker 1: need to say about take care of Maya?

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Speaker 2: Because there's a lot I would like to disclose, as

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Speaker 2: I do in this episode. I still have not watched it.

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Speaker 2: I want to when I have time, hopefully next week,

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Speaker 2: but by then it'll be too late because these episodes

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Speaker 2: will help come out. I'm insanely busy right now, you guys.

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Speaker 2: But I know that it struck a chord with a

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Speaker 2: lot of people. People were very very upset by it,

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Speaker 2: and it apparently, you know, moved a lot of people,

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Speaker 2: and it's heartbreaking.

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Speaker 5: I did watch. It's absolutely heartbreaking.

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Speaker 1: We kind of in this episode take a stance of

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Speaker 1: like what if it wasn't real?

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Speaker 5: What if she was a victim of this?

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Speaker 1: And this is not like something I want to go

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Speaker 1: to the grave dying on Like, I don't need to argue.

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Speaker 2: About the point of our guest who has a lot

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Speaker 2: of research and seems very evidence minded. Yeah, so, I'm

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Speaker 2: sure if we were to listen to the entire season

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Speaker 2: of her podcast that she devoted to it, we would

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Speaker 2: understand her reasoning there. Right now, since we do not

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Speaker 2: have all that information, we are just letting her make

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Speaker 2: her case.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and it's a case that I've gone very down

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Speaker 1: the rabbit hole with as well. So there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of like reddit little things I think I mentioned, So

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Speaker 1: I do have some beliefs, but again, like I have

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Speaker 1: not dedicated my life to studying this, so I'm not

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Speaker 1: ready to spend the rest of my year arguing about it.

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Speaker 2: Please don't argue with Megane.

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Speaker 1: But either way, it's just like the saddest case on

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Speaker 1: this topic is so in intriguing I can't wait for

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Speaker 1: people to hear it.

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Speaker 5: And shall we begin, Let's do it.

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Speaker 2: So talk to us about how you kind of learned

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Speaker 2: there was maybe some stuff going on with her own children.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so, you know I talked about her son was

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Speaker 3: born early, which I have come to learn is nearly

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Speaker 3: ubiquitous in these cases really and yeah, and causing it.

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Speaker 3: That's that's certainly my belief. And again, like there's a

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Speaker 3: couple of perpetrators that have talked to doctor Mark Feldman,

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Speaker 3: who's written five four books on the subject, in five books,

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Speaker 3: but I think only four of them have been medical

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Speaker 3: sception books. So he's written a number of books on

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Speaker 3: the subject and is you know, obviously a wonderful expert

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Speaker 3: on this topic. And so he actually has talked to

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Speaker 3: a couple of perpetrators that explain to him sort of

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Speaker 3: exactly how they did that. And not to get sort

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Speaker 3: of craft, but if you understand anything about sort of

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Speaker 3: obgu I and medicine, you know you it's not hard

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Speaker 3: to induce labor, right. Wow. And also worth noting that

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Speaker 3: my sister was a nurse at a high risk obgy

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Speaker 3: in clinic during his time, so she certainly would have

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Speaker 3: had access. Again, I don't have any I don't have

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Speaker 3: any proof that she did that. However, she had has

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Speaker 3: She had three the real pregnancies that I know of,

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Speaker 3: and they were increasingly the children were increasingly born premature,

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Speaker 3: and the one in the middle actually died. So it's

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Speaker 3: hard for me to believe that that wouldn't also be

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Speaker 3: sort of part of this intentional pattern. So he was

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Speaker 3: born early. He was in the nick you for a

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Speaker 3: little the neonatal Intensive care unit in the NICKU for

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Speaker 3: a period of time, which is really common with premius.

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Speaker 3: And it appeared to be doing while I think when

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Speaker 3: he was discharged and then just had you know, one

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Speaker 3: problem after another, and is all this developmental stuff and

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Speaker 3: he wasn't the biggest thing was he wasn't getting weight,

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Speaker 3: couldn't keep food down, according to her, and just was

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Speaker 3: not you know, was just having trouble growing. And so

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Speaker 3: they you know, there's this very like standard sort of

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Speaker 3: escalation when and again this is just ubiquitous in these cases.

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Speaker 3: So the parent brings the child into the doctor and says,

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Speaker 3: they're not getting weight, they're spitting up their formula, or

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Speaker 3: just like, you know, no matter what I do, they

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Speaker 3: can't keep keep anything down whatever. The sort of explanation

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Speaker 3: that they're giving reflux is something that always, oh they're

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Speaker 3: having reflex, they're spinning everything up. And so then they

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Speaker 3: start with this tube that goes in through the nose,

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Speaker 3: and so he had one of those and then we're

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Speaker 3: he when he was about a year old, she started

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Speaker 3: talking about, Oh, they're going to do this other surge.

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Speaker 3: They're going to do this surgical feeding tube that goes

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Speaker 3: in through his stomach, call the G two. And that

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Speaker 3: I think was when we were having a bad feeling,

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Speaker 3: just sort of like an amorphous bad feeling about here

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Speaker 3: she has this history of lying about her health and

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Speaker 3: the fake pregnancy, and then say that it's a very

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Speaker 3: sort of set a pretty strong stage to be concerned.

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Speaker 3: And then you know, yeah, like I mentioned that moment

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Speaker 3: of you know, my mother went in to see the

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Speaker 3: gasper entrologist with her. Most of the time she would

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Speaker 3: not let people go to appointments with her, but in

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Speaker 3: this case she did. And the doctor was saying like,

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Speaker 3: let's give it time, let's wait and see about the

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Speaker 3: you know, feeding tube. And then when I asked her

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Speaker 3: how that appointment had gone, she was like, Oh, they're

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Speaker 3: really pushing me to get this feeding tube, so I

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Speaker 3: think we're going to get this feeding tube. And that

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Speaker 3: was like very alarming that she's pushing for this. She

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Speaker 3: appears to be pushing for an intervention that's surgical. It's

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Speaker 3: quite serious. So I think that was when really like

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Speaker 3: just the alarms. I start going off for my parents,

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Speaker 3: and I was actually living with them at the time

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Speaker 3: because I just moved back from New York, and they

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Speaker 3: went to speak to our family doctor and it told

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Speaker 3: her their concerns and she said, this sounds like Munchausen

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Speaker 3: biproxy and explain to them what that was. And they

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Speaker 3: came home from that converse station and talked to me

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Speaker 3: in the kitchen and sat me down, and that was

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Speaker 3: like probably that was like one of the worst moments

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Speaker 3: of my life because I just I knew what they

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Speaker 3: were saying was true. It was like the thing that

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Speaker 3: sort of like clicked and everything fit, and I just thought, like, oh,

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Speaker 3: this is going to destroy our family, Like there's no way,

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Speaker 3: like we're going to survive as a family, Like whatever's

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Speaker 3: going to happen next. So basically, my mother then called

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Speaker 3: one of the doctors that she had been I think

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Speaker 3: one of the ones she'd been an appointment with, and

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Speaker 3: told him about the conversation they'd had and about our

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Speaker 3: concerns and about some of her previous history, and he said,

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Speaker 3: do you think it's time for an intervention? And she said, well, yes,

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Speaker 3: yes I do. And she was envisioning you know, we're

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Speaker 3: very knaive about all of this at the time, no

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Speaker 3: no experience with like CPS or the family courts or

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Speaker 3: any of that stuff. So I think she was envisioning like, Oh,

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Speaker 3: we're gonna get all the doctors together and we're gonna

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Speaker 3: like sit down her to talk it out and be like, oh,

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Speaker 3: you know, Megan, you need to like well whatever. So

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Speaker 3: that's what she was envisioning, and that's not what he

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Speaker 3: meant this, you know. And I only sort of like

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Speaker 3: learned about this sort of after just procedurally how this

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Speaker 3: sort of it would have gotten elevated to their child

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Speaker 3: abuse team and then they would have then had to

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Speaker 3: take that to a judge who would have authorized an

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Speaker 3: emergency removal. So that's when like CPS shows up at

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Speaker 3: your door and takes the child. So that is when

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Speaker 3: the child is an immediate danger. And again, these are

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Speaker 3: all things I've learned afterwards. We just got the call

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Speaker 3: that they'd come and taken him, and we were totally

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Speaker 3: freaked out. CPS being involved was very scary. I now

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Speaker 3: know enough about CPS where I'm like, I don't think

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Speaker 3: anyone actually needs to be Well, that's not completely true.

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Speaker 3: I think depending on your situation. But certainly like we

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Speaker 3: would not need to be afraid of CPS. But yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's a very scary situation to be in, and that's

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Speaker 3: not what we wanted to happen. We were not trying

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Speaker 3: to like split up their family. We were just really

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Speaker 3: worried and we were really scared. And so basically then

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Speaker 3: you know, CPS did an investigation. They outed my mom

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Speaker 3: to her, so they on their paperwork they said then

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Speaker 3: they should not have done this that you know, she

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Speaker 3: was the one who'd alerted the doctor. So then it

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Speaker 3: became like an ass against them thing, and like oh

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Speaker 3: you like you know, and then for me it was like, oh,

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Speaker 3: you're siding with mom and dad and you know, and

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Speaker 3: I just like I will remember forever like the last

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Speaker 3: conversation this might very well be like the last conversation

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Speaker 3: I ever ever have with her, you know, where I

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Speaker 3: just told her. I was like, you know, I'm not

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Speaker 3: like I can't pretend that like I don't think there's

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Speaker 3: something wrong, like there is, and how can you like,

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Speaker 3: how can you you know you lied about an entire pregnancy,

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Speaker 3: like you like, how can you not think that you know?

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Speaker 3: There It's it's not like this is happening completely out

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Speaker 3: of context. And you know, she said, like, I don't

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Speaker 3: know why you're bringing that up now, and I was like, well,

248
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Speaker 3: it's germane to the relation, and she just said, you know,

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Speaker 3: I remember she's just very like cold and said like, well,

250
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Speaker 3: you know, it's not like we were ever close, so

251
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Speaker 3: you know, and I was like, wait, I weren't we

252
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Speaker 3: like I you know or like was like, yeah, well,

253
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Speaker 3: like we haven't been the last couple of years because

254
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Speaker 3: you've been lying about all this stuff, but like, yeah,

255
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Speaker 3: it was.

256
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Speaker 2: It was.

257
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Speaker 3: It was awful, and you know, and so then she

258
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Speaker 3: didn't let anybody see the kid and her husband and

259
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Speaker 3: his family. We tried to talk to them. We had

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Speaker 3: this horrible, uh family meeting that the social work are

261
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Speaker 3: set up where it was basically like all of us

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Speaker 3: in a room. My dad did not come because my

263
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Speaker 3: dad has a temper and that would not have been

264
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Speaker 3: a good environment for him to be in. But like

265
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Speaker 3: his you know, my sister's husband, Andy was there and

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Speaker 3: his parents and a bunch of his aunties and like

267
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Speaker 3: friends and supporters and like this whole like cardra of people,

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Speaker 3: which like I don't know why all of these people

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Speaker 3: were allowed to be in this meeting, and they basically

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Speaker 3: just like one by one told us like whoa horrible

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Speaker 3: people we were to be, you know, suspecting her of this,

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Speaker 3: and how we were just looking at us like we

273
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Speaker 3: were just the skum of the earth. And I just

274
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Speaker 3: remember thinking like, oh my god, like, you guys do

275
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Speaker 3: not know what you are dealing with. And my mom

276
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Speaker 3: and I just really tried to like and my mom

277
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Speaker 3: is so stoic and like she choked up, and I

278
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Speaker 3: will never forget this rest of my life. One of

279
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Speaker 3: the aunts laughed, and I just like I just about

280
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Speaker 3: lost for them. Yet have they realized anything? Well, so yeah,

281
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Speaker 3: I'll get to that, you know. And I just remember

282
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Speaker 3: I remember looking in particular at my brother in law's mom,

283
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Speaker 3: who I just I mean, I liked his parents. I

284
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Speaker 3: liked him before this. I thought they were nice people.

285
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Speaker 3: They were like she's a teacher, he's a plumber, his parents,

286
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Speaker 3: and I just remember just looking at her and being like, please, please,

287
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Speaker 3: please please listen to us, like please listen to us,

288
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Speaker 3: because we knew if we couldn't get their support, that

289
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Speaker 3: it was going to become the sort of adversarial thing.

290
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Speaker 3: And we were just like listen, like she's done all

291
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Speaker 3: the thing that you guys don't know the history, you

292
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Speaker 3: don't know, this all happened before you were around, you know,

293
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Speaker 3: and they just didn't didn't appear to take any of

294
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Speaker 3: it in. And then eventually, you know, so CPS did

295
00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:11,679
Speaker 3: their investigation, and we were like, I mean, we were

296
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Speaker 3: so nicive. We're like, Okay, CPS is here, like the

297
00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:17,319
Speaker 3: cavalry is here, They're going to do something. No, they

298
00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:19,560
Speaker 3: did nothing. I mean basically, like as much as we

299
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Speaker 3: know about it, which we did, don't because this is

300
00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:23,440
Speaker 3: all family court stuff, you don't really have access to it.

301
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Speaker 3: With the social worker. What she communicated to my mom

302
00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:28,640
Speaker 3: was that basically they came to like whatever end the

303
00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:31,240
Speaker 3: investigation came to, which the state did not file for

304
00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:33,760
Speaker 3: dependency in that case. They did in the case against

305
00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:37,320
Speaker 3: a case involving my niece, which was years later, but

306
00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:39,760
Speaker 3: they did not file for dependencies. They not moved to

307
00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:42,600
Speaker 3: take the kids away or remove custody. They basically like

308
00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:45,160
Speaker 3: sort of told my sister like, oh, you need to

309
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Speaker 3: get some counseling, like you need some mental health or help,

310
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Speaker 3: which again is back to this idea of it as

311
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Speaker 3: a mental health issue, and briefly after that whole thing

312
00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:56,920
Speaker 3: went down. So this whole thing, you know, then we

313
00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:00,120
Speaker 3: were just like sort of in this like wreckage and

314
00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:02,240
Speaker 3: just being like cool. So we just blew up our

315
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Speaker 3: entire family and nothing even happened, like nothing was done

316
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Speaker 3: to protect the kid, and he's just still in this situation.

317
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Speaker 3: And so then my father heard from my brother in

318
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Speaker 3: law a couple of months later, and we thought, like,

319
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Speaker 3: oh my god, now like things are going to turn

320
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Speaker 3: around because he had found some evidence of some other

321
00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:32,320
Speaker 3: deceptions from my sister on her computer and was really

322
00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:35,680
Speaker 3: freaked out about it. And he got in touch with

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Speaker 3: my dad and they like sat down and we were like, okay,

324
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Speaker 3: so this one, she can't blame this on us. He

325
00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:42,640
Speaker 3: found this of his own volition. He saw this with

326
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Speaker 3: his own eyes. Now he has to understand like that

327
00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:48,760
Speaker 3: she is extremely deceptive, and like now kind of like

328
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Speaker 3: the things will click for him, the pieces will fall together.

329
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Speaker 3: And that is not what happened. I don't know what

330
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Speaker 3: I went on in his internal landscape there, but he

331
00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,600
Speaker 3: stuck by my sister and they met with my father

332
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Speaker 3: and told him that if he wanted to see his grandson,

333
00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:12,040
Speaker 3: he would help them sue Seattle Children's Hospital for falsely

334
00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:17,000
Speaker 3: accusing Megan, which has become a big trend by Wayne

335
00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:22,040
Speaker 3: in these cases, and he declined to do that nonetheless,

336
00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:25,960
Speaker 3: so we never got to see. Since fourteen years ago

337
00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:29,280
Speaker 3: now we have not been able to see the child.

338
00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:34,000
Speaker 3: And as to the question of him, of the husband

339
00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:36,560
Speaker 3: and his parents, all I know is what they've said

340
00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:39,560
Speaker 3: in the media and in the husband's case, and then

341
00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:42,160
Speaker 3: what was reported in like the police reports, because there

342
00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:45,720
Speaker 3: was a police investigation for two years about my about

343
00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:52,320
Speaker 3: my niece. They just completely believe her, and whether they

344
00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:54,120
Speaker 3: believe her in their heart of hearts, I have no idea,

345
00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:57,560
Speaker 3: but they have always stood by her, they have supported her.

346
00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:04,920
Speaker 3: They yeah, they just are. And I don't understand how

347
00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:08,159
Speaker 3: you can be presented with that much evidence and still

348
00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:10,520
Speaker 3: just be like, oh, this woman's just the unluckiest woman

349
00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:12,480
Speaker 3: in the world. She just has all you know, her

350
00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:14,560
Speaker 3: kids just have these illnesses that make no sense, and

351
00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:18,160
Speaker 3: they're always the rarest rare thing, and you know, so

352
00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:22,440
Speaker 3: it doesn't there's no logic to it. But I certainly, again,

353
00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:25,800
Speaker 3: in like opening my eyes to all these other cases

354
00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:29,000
Speaker 3: and talking to other people, this is pretty common, right,

355
00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:32,480
Speaker 3: Like actually, my family's in the minority. According to Detective

356
00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:36,280
Speaker 3: Mike If. He said, like, most families actually will sort

357
00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:40,439
Speaker 3: of circle the wagons and protect the offender, which is

358
00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:42,480
Speaker 3: not the right thing to do. I mean that parents

359
00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:44,720
Speaker 3: saying right, like, I understand the impulse, especially maybe in

360
00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:46,600
Speaker 3: the beginning when you're trying to like wrap your head

361
00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:51,159
Speaker 3: around it. But to my mind, those people are collaborators

362
00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:53,480
Speaker 3: in the abuse because if they they were the only

363
00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,320
Speaker 3: people who could have ever intervened all these years, and

364
00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:57,520
Speaker 3: they did not.

365
00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:11,199
Speaker 2: Do you have any knowledge of the well being of

366
00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:12,520
Speaker 2: the children at this stage.

367
00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:18,800
Speaker 3: I people tell me things, I have no reason to

368
00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:21,719
Speaker 3: believe that the abuse has stopped.

369
00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:26,200
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm so sorry. What a horrible thing.

370
00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:28,600
Speaker 1: It's so strong that you and your family have been

371
00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:31,879
Speaker 1: able to not circle the wagon, so to speak, and

372
00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:35,520
Speaker 1: stand up, because it sounds like it's more common than

373
00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:36,040
Speaker 1: we know.

374
00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:40,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, certainly every expert I've spoken to and

375
00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:44,159
Speaker 3: you know again, you guys have met doctor Feldman and

376
00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:47,080
Speaker 3: Joe All three of us are on this committee with

377
00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:49,080
Speaker 3: the American Professional Sidety on the Abuse of Children. They

378
00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:50,760
Speaker 3: have a much houban by roxy committee that we're all

379
00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:52,960
Speaker 3: a part of, and that has you know, sort of

380
00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:55,200
Speaker 3: like most of the well known experts on this, and

381
00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:58,320
Speaker 3: certainly all of them agree that this is far more common

382
00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:02,760
Speaker 3: than what people believe, that it is just way underdiagnosed

383
00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:08,080
Speaker 3: and way underrecognized. And you know, there's unfortunately this media

384
00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:12,520
Speaker 3: narrative at the moment that it is over diagnosed and

385
00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:16,320
Speaker 3: that you know, child abuse pediatricians who are as a

386
00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:19,560
Speaker 3: very rare subspecialty. There's about two hundred and fifty of

387
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,560
Speaker 3: them in the country, and it's just basically what it

388
00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:27,359
Speaker 3: sounds like. It's pediatricians that have a high level of

389
00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:30,159
Speaker 3: training and they do fellowship et cetera about you know,

390
00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:35,520
Speaker 3: specifically about child abuse, so certain kinds of injuries, munchaus

391
00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:40,760
Speaker 3: and by proxy, et cetera. That these child abuse pediatricians

392
00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:47,760
Speaker 3: are sort of basically kidnapping children and just for because

393
00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:52,480
Speaker 3: they're so obsessed with creating child abuse scenarios for themselves

394
00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:54,440
Speaker 3: to work on. It doesn't if it sounds like it

395
00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:56,879
Speaker 3: doesn't make sense, because it doesn't make sense. It's conspiracy theory.

396
00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:00,840
Speaker 3: But yeah, there's this there's this idea that like and

397
00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:03,280
Speaker 3: in a lot of times, like when these articles will

398
00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:06,399
Speaker 3: write about like how oh there's over there's over diagnosis

399
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:08,719
Speaker 3: of medical child abuse and mentel's by proxy. And in

400
00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:11,640
Speaker 3: this one area, they'll use these statistics that are completely

401
00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:14,200
Speaker 3: you know, from debunked studies where it's like, oh, it's

402
00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:17,479
Speaker 3: this only tiny percentage. And also like we haven't been

403
00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:22,880
Speaker 3: able to collect good data because so few are actually

404
00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:27,000
Speaker 3: held accountable in the system. And sure enough, like of

405
00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:31,640
Speaker 3: you know, I have a nonprofit that that I started

406
00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:36,240
Speaker 3: that Mark and Joe are also involved with, and several

407
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:38,840
Speaker 3: of other of our colleagues, and we do. One of

408
00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:41,080
Speaker 3: the things we do is peer support group for survivors.

409
00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:43,399
Speaker 3: All of the survivors I've talked to, with the exception

410
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,920
Speaker 3: of one who's this survivor we covered in season two

411
00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:50,280
Speaker 3: who's adopted by family members, they were all raised by

412
00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,879
Speaker 3: their perpetrators. They were there were attempts at interventions, sometimes

413
00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:56,040
Speaker 3: to like sort of varying degrees of success. I know

414
00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:57,399
Speaker 3: a couple of kids that were taken out for a

415
00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:59,880
Speaker 3: couple of years and then given back, but like they

416
00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,439
Speaker 3: don't get separated from their perpetrators. So that tells me

417
00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:07,119
Speaker 3: right there that like, you know, it's it's certainly like

418
00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:08,400
Speaker 3: under prosecuted.

419
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,080
Speaker 2: I mean, I feel like I hear stories all the

420
00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:15,640
Speaker 2: time about CPS knowing that there's like much more visible,

421
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:21,600
Speaker 2: obvious abuse repeatedly happening and still not really doing anything

422
00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:24,440
Speaker 2: or not doing enough, and they're preventable deaths because of that.

423
00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:27,679
Speaker 2: With this, it's so much harder to detect. I can

424
00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:30,919
Speaker 2: only imagine how much less effective even it is.

425
00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:33,000
Speaker 1: And now it's easier to fake it because you can

426
00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:36,000
Speaker 1: just go on an online forum and learn every single

427
00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:39,120
Speaker 1: thing that there is to know about an illness.

428
00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:39,800
Speaker 5: It's wild.

429
00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:43,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think you guys are a spot on

430
00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:46,880
Speaker 3: about both of those things. I mean, you know, CPS certainly,

431
00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:50,440
Speaker 3: like her child welfare system is complicated, it is flawed.

432
00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:53,520
Speaker 3: I'm not here to champion it, but you know what

433
00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:55,800
Speaker 3: we do know about it in terms of like who

434
00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:59,720
Speaker 3: is being unfairly you know, affected by it, and who's

435
00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:03,080
Speaker 3: having their children removed in cases where that's probably not

436
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,600
Speaker 3: the good solution. That's the like seventy percent of cases

437
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:11,199
Speaker 3: that are either sort of you know that are like

438
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:13,840
Speaker 3: neglect cases right where there are a lot of those

439
00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:17,879
Speaker 3: things are accessibility issues or poverty issues that sort of

440
00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:20,359
Speaker 3: people not having enough space in their house, you know,

441
00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:23,600
Speaker 3: they get their kids removed from that, and that's really heartbreaking,

442
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,320
Speaker 3: and I'm sure this will shock no one. Black and

443
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:30,959
Speaker 3: brown families are disproportionately affected by those kinds of child removals.

444
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:33,600
Speaker 3: But as to the like, so, yeah, that's seventy six

445
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:35,720
Speaker 3: percent I believe is that when we had an expert

446
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:37,760
Speaker 3: on to talk about it. So as to the twenty

447
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:40,760
Speaker 3: four percent of cases that are actual abuse cases that

448
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 3: are removals, I mean those are not those interventions are

449
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:48,639
Speaker 3: not effective enough, and often often a kid has to

450
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,639
Speaker 3: be just in horrific shape. And even then, you know

451
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,200
Speaker 3: a lot of times they're they're given back, and especially

452
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:57,280
Speaker 3: if the parent is white, if they have money to

453
00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:01,639
Speaker 3: hire defense attorneys. I mean this sort of you know,

454
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:05,120
Speaker 3: when I was reporting on the Kowalski case, and specifically,

455
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:06,920
Speaker 3: you know, with the sort of movie as a jumping

456
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:08,840
Speaker 3: off point. And I don't know if you guys have

457
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,120
Speaker 3: seen Take Care of Maya probably takes up nowhere near

458
00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:14,600
Speaker 3: as much space in your brains as it does mine.

459
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:17,040
Speaker 3: But you know, one of the things that the movie

460
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:20,240
Speaker 3: does is they pull out this sort of parade of parents.

461
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,320
Speaker 3: At the end of the movie, they have four parents

462
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:24,199
Speaker 3: that are actually identified on camera, and then they have

463
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:26,399
Speaker 3: a whole bunch where they just have video snippets that

464
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,520
Speaker 3: are rolling during the credits. And I looked into some

465
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:31,760
Speaker 3: of these other cases and they're all saying, you know,

466
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 3: the four and the k We're all, oh, it's all

467
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:35,960
Speaker 3: doctor Sally Smith. It was this child abuse pediatrician. She

468
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:37,879
Speaker 3: just took my kids away, and it was you know,

469
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:40,920
Speaker 3: and they just the tiniest, tiniest But they don't say crucially,

470
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,840
Speaker 3: they don't say what happened to the kids, right. The

471
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:45,960
Speaker 3: only thing you hear about is the parents experience, and

472
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 3: they're saying, they took my kids away. They ruined my life,

473
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,640
Speaker 3: they ruined my reputation, bank, crypt in, my family, whatever

474
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,240
Speaker 3: whatever are So these four families that were featured in it,

475
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,119
Speaker 3: I did public records requests on this, and this all

476
00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:58,680
Speaker 3: happened in Florida, so it's easy to get public records

477
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 3: in Florida compared to other states. When you read the

478
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:05,120
Speaker 3: police reports of these and for something, by the way,

479
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 3: to get to the level where there even is a

480
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:09,760
Speaker 3: police investigation for child abuse of any kind, whether it's

481
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 3: fractures or abusive head trauma also known as shaking baby syndrome,

482
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 3: like for police to be involved, it has to be

483
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 3: extremely serious for it to have gone past like just

484
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:23,480
Speaker 3: CPS family court stuff like, it's extremely serious to begin with.

485
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:25,439
Speaker 3: There has to be enough evidence for there to be

486
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:29,160
Speaker 3: police investigation. And again not defending the police. The police

487
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,240
Speaker 3: are not perfect. That's not the point. But that is

488
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:34,439
Speaker 3: to stay like across the board. You know, that's a

489
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,680
Speaker 3: note that something serious. When you read what the parents

490
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:41,760
Speaker 3: one number one, what happened to the children, Their injuries

491
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:46,240
Speaker 3: were horrific, and the stories the parents told about how

492
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 3: those injuries happened made no sense at all. And I

493
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,280
Speaker 3: did not walk away from those thinking these are parents

494
00:24:55,280 --> 00:25:00,080
Speaker 3: who are wrongly accused at all. And I believe in

495
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 3: all of those cases the parents got their kids back.

496
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 3: And you know, in one case it was someone who

497
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:09,360
Speaker 3: has jailed for a child. The guy's name is John Stewart,

498
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:14,880
Speaker 3: not the beloved late night comedian, very much the opposite

499
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 3: he was, and there there was a lot it was

500
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,399
Speaker 3: a very complicated police investigation where it sounds like a

501
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,400
Speaker 3: bunch of things went wrong, but he was actually jailed

502
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:26,800
Speaker 3: for murdering a fifteen month old and he was released

503
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:30,679
Speaker 3: from prison. He's gone on to harassed doctor Sally Smith.

504
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 3: He showed up when she testified in court. He's a

505
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:37,359
Speaker 3: very he's a former marine. Like, it's a very very

506
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 3: scary business to present these people as victims of a

507
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,479
Speaker 3: system which there is no evidence that they are. There

508
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:47,879
Speaker 3: is no evidence that any of these cases that I

509
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 3: have looked into, and I've scraped the surface of a bunch,

510
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:54,400
Speaker 3: it's very sort of overwhelming business to get into. But yeah,

511
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:58,360
Speaker 3: I mean, so there's this narrative, this medical kidnapping narrative

512
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 3: that like, doctor are just taking kids away willy nilly,

513
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 3: which is not the case. That's a horrible position for

514
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 3: a doctor to be. And again, regardless of what kind

515
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 3: of abuse it is, if munchausend biproxy cases are very

516
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,920
Speaker 3: complicated because they involve a whole bunch of different doctors

517
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,399
Speaker 3: and tens of thousands of pages of medical records. I mean,

518
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 3: I think one of the things that really stuck with

519
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 3: me when I was digging into my sister's case with

520
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 3: my niece, where there was a tear long police investigation.

521
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 3: She was five years old at the time. She had

522
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:30,879
Speaker 3: seventy three thousand pages of medical records that were subpoenaed

523
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 3: or that were collected as a shit, and I mean, like,

524
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 3: just that's just like an unfathomable number, even if a

525
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,479
Speaker 3: child had a known like you know, I asked. I

526
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:44,919
Speaker 3: was able to interview the child abuse p Detrican that

527
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,640
Speaker 3: was involved in that case, doctor Carol Jenny. I wasn't

528
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 3: able to ask her a lot of questions about it,

529
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 3: but sort of asking about the pages of medical records

530
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 3: and she's like, yeah, you know, it's like you have

531
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:54,399
Speaker 3: a child that hasn't had any health issues and they

532
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:55,879
Speaker 3: have a little stack at five, and then you have

533
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:57,440
Speaker 3: a child that has like leukemia and they have a

534
00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 3: stack like this, and then you know, the medical child

535
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,959
Speaker 3: abuse cases are like to the ceiling. So yeah, they

536
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 3: certainly are more complicated. But even with child abuse in general,

537
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 3: like there's this it's a very there's a very strong

538
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:12,360
Speaker 3: push from the sort of far right parents' rights movement

539
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 3: is where they're sort of getting their political support. I

540
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 3: think it's tied into this idea that like children basically

541
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 3: are the property of their parents and the state should

542
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:24,439
Speaker 3: not be able to intervene. So it's very scary, and

543
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 3: I really really urge people to be skeptical when you

544
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:29,919
Speaker 3: see that kind of reporting because as I have peeled

545
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,840
Speaker 3: back a couple layers of this case, I just and

546
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:37,399
Speaker 3: again I maybe despite my better judgment, I am so

547
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,640
Speaker 3: I'm so flummixed as to why people report on these

548
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,440
Speaker 3: cases that way, Like why those filmmakers looked at these

549
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 3: cases and thought, yeah, these are parents who've been victimized

550
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 3: by a child abuse pediatrician. I don't know how to

551
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 3: make a blue dress gold dress.

552
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 1: Thing where I will read on Reddit and it's just

553
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,879
Speaker 1: like something that seems so clear, like people were messed

554
00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 1: up over the take care of my I mean that

555
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:02,200
Speaker 1: was you look messages about that then most I remember

556
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 1: you telling me like people are flooding my inbox with

557
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 1: how oh sad they are about this documentary, like it

558
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:09,920
Speaker 1: really affected people, and they were like this poor family

559
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 1: and you can't. It's like the disconnect between people who

560
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:15,720
Speaker 1: see it the two different ways is so interesting.

561
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 2: I mean, I have to imagine that that's at least

562
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 2: in part due to the fact that they're imagining it

563
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 2: happening to them, Whereas it's much more difficult to empathize

564
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,960
Speaker 2: with a child who's being made sick. It's harder to

565
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,679
Speaker 2: connect to that if you haven't experienced anything like that.

566
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 2: But we're adults. Many of the people probably have children

567
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 2: or intend to have children, and so there's this like

568
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 2: phantom idea of like what if I am accused? What

569
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 2: if my life is ruined? And like yeah, in the

570
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 2: case of all things, of course, there's always a small

571
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,719
Speaker 2: percentage of false accusations, a very very small percentage. But

572
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 2: like before we've even tackled the thing in the first place,

573
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 2: that's not the most urgent issue, y'all when it's a

574
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 2: matter of abuse of children, right.

575
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 3: Right, And it's like, I think people don't grasp mistakes,

576
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 3: and I think I think you're exactly right that it does.

577
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 3: These stories, the sort of medical kidnapping stories, which which

578
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 3: the take care of my film is very much that.

579
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 3: And you know, it's a very emotionally affecting film, right,

580
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 3: I mean you it's told with a great deal of sympathy.

581
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 3: There's a great deal of information withheld from the viewer.

582
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 3: I think the total of you know, the filmmakers said

583
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 3: that they used depositions from the doctors as the way

584
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 3: to show quote the other side, I think it totaled

585
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 3: about seven minutes of an almost two hour film, so

586
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 3: they certainly did not give you know, there certainly is

587
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 3: a tremendous amount of evidence that unfortunately, I know this

588
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 3: case just like way too well because thousands and thousands,

589
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 3: thousands of pages of documents and watch every single second

590
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 3: of the trial and interviewed a couple people who are involved.

591
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 3: But you know, it was a very I mean, to

592
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 3: my mind, honestly like a flat out manipulative film. So

593
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 3: I don't blame people for walking away having that reaction.

594
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 3: That was the reaction that they wanted you to have.

595
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 3: And even for me with my lens and some previous

596
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 3: knowledge of this case just from my community, even watching it,

597
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:06,959
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, like your heartstrings, like, and I do

598
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 3: think it's tragic that Yata died. I don't think that

599
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 3: that's not a good outcome for anybody, right, Like, that's

600
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 3: a horrible thing to have happened to her children, And

601
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 3: I don't wish that upon anyone, you know. And I certainly,

602
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 3: like I found Jack Kwalsky sympathetic and sort of thought like, oh,

603
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 3: maybe he's just one of these dads that like really

604
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 3: didn't understand what was going on in his own house.

605
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 3: That happens all the time, right, you see sort of

606
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 3: dads that travel a lot, or dads that are in

607
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 3: the military, or like that's a pretty common dynamic in

608
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 3: these cases. I thought, well, maybe he's just like kind

609
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 3: of clueless. Certainly, once I dug into the case, he

610
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 3: was not. He was taking here about half her appointments.

611
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 3: He I don't know what his motives for colluding the

612
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 3: way that he appears to have colluded in this case were,

613
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 3: but certainly I came away from my full investigation into

614
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 3: it feeling much differently about him than when I watched

615
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 3: the film. But yeah, I think when people just don't know,

616
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:57,720
Speaker 3: I mean, they don't know what much House in My

617
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 3: Proxy is anyway. You know, they left it to one

618
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 3: of the Kowalski's attorneys to explain to the viewer what

619
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 3: Munchausen by proxy was in the film, and they made

620
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 3: it sound like it's not something that's real. So I

621
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 3: think people just didn't even understand that they were essentially

622
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 3: watching a piece of pr for the Kowalskis in their lawsuits.

623
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 3: And that sounds extreme, but I mean that's, you know,

624
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 3: after having spent a lot of time with it, and

625
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 3: I sort of don't understand how Yeah, I think, especially

626
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 3: when it comes to like roping in these other families

627
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 3: and like do you just not think people abuse their

628
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 3: children like this is as old as time. It's unfortunately

629
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 3: a very you know, it's not an uncommon phenomenon at all.

630
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 3: And like I also don't have like I'm not unsympathetic

631
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 3: to people who find themselves in that situation. There are

632
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 3: many you know, Like MUCHASZ by proxy is extremely tricky,

633
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 3: it's not treatable really as a mentalness. I mean, some

634
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 3: of my colleagues have had had a few success stories,

635
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 3: doctor Mary Sanders. We've had on the show from Stanford

636
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 3: a couple of times, you know, but it's a very

637
00:31:57,640 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 3: rare perpetrator that we'll be able to sort of be

638
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 3: treated and have any kind of a healthy connection with

639
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 3: their child. But there's these other forms of abuse that

640
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 3: are you know, more about sort of people not having

641
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 3: good coping mechanisms or substance abuse, right, which is where

642
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 3: you get some of those physical abuse cases. There is

643
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 3: hope for those families if they take accountability and sort

644
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 3: of take those steps. And I don't think that people,

645
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 3: you know, it's a child being removed from their family

646
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 3: should be a last resort. But if a child is

647
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 3: in danger, like children deserve to be safe in their home.

648
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 3: So I truly don't, and I wish any of them

649
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 3: would talk to me, like I wish I wish any

650
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 3: of the people. You know, my Kicks and Bog has

651
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 3: done a lot of reporting with his Do No Harm

652
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 3: series in his podcast, has done a lot of this

653
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 3: metalkill kidnapping stuff, you know, Kaitlyn Keating who worked on

654
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 3: the film, Like, I've reached out to all these people,

655
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 3: I wish they would talk to me, because I genuinely

656
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 3: would love to hear from their perspective, like what am

657
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 3: I missing? Like you appear to be approaching this with

658
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 3: so much credulousness that like anyone who says they didn't

659
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 3: abuse their child didn't abuse their child. Do you think

660
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 3: that people who abuse their children bring them to the

661
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 3: hospital and say, hey, my kid has a head injury

662
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 3: because I bashed my kid on the head. No, of

663
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 3: course they don't. They say my kid fell out of

664
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 3: the chair, They say my kid, you know this that,

665
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 3: and then maybe like upon a much deeper investigation, they

666
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 3: admit to their behavior. But like, of course people don't.

667
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 3: You know, do you think people don't cover for their

668
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 3: abusive spouses? Like, just what is your worldview? What do

669
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 3: you think is going on in the world that you

670
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,720
Speaker 3: could put this together and say, you know, or like

671
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 3: the Maya Kuwalski case where you have this ma, you know,

672
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 3: this treatment protocol that she was on where she was

673
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 3: getting fifty five ketamine infusions in the Europe to let

674
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 3: up to her hospitalization of like twenty five to you know,

675
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 3: to fifty times an adult dose of ketamine where she

676
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 3: was being put in a coma in Mexico for five days,

677
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 3: where her mother was at the hospital saying if you

678
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 3: don't give her the kedemine I'm asking for, I will

679
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 3: put her in hospice care so she can just die. Wow,

680
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 3: which is exactly how, by the way, some other munchausing

681
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 3: cases have played out, including the Olivia Gant case in

682
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 3: the in Colorado where the hospital was sued by the

683
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 3: grandparents for not intervening when they suspected much house and

684
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 3: by proxy, and that mom took her child home and

685
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 3: she died in home hospice care. So it's like, I

686
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:13,239
Speaker 3: don't understand how someone can look at these things and

687
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 3: add it up to this is a falsely accused family like,

688
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 3: but obviously other people are. So I'm very curious.

689
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:28,800
Speaker 1: What the mom gone.

690
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 5: Maya is now walking. I saw her renting a little bit.

691
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:32,359
Speaker 2: Yeah.

692
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 1: She was like, it's not because my mom is gone,

693
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:35,280
Speaker 1: It's because I'm better.

694
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 3: And it's like, okay, right, it's the good days and

695
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 3: bad days. That's the thing you hear all the time

696
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 3: in these cases. And that is not to undermine the

697
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 3: fact that people who have religion to chronicle andnesss do

698
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 3: have good days and bad days, and it can look

699
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:47,359
Speaker 3: very different, and there isn't we shouldn't have one set

700
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:51,720
Speaker 3: mine now. But like the CRPS diagnosis that Maya allegedly had,

701
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 3: that diagnosis or originated from her mother. Her mother was

702
00:34:56,000 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 3: talking to people on parenting messaging boards before she saw

703
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 3: doctor Kirkpatrick, who was a doctor in the film who

704
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:05,319
Speaker 3: gave her the original diagnosis, and Biata reported to a

705
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 3: pulmonologist that Maya had been diagnosed with CRPS before she

706
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:12,720
Speaker 3: ever saw doctor Kirkpatrick. So this was not a real diagnosis.

707
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 3: The origin of it, you know, they had numerous doctors

708
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 3: from these world class institutions like Laurie Children saying like

709
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:23,839
Speaker 3: nothing about her symptomology, like she was distractable from her pain,

710
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 3: Like nothing about this fit CRPS. Right, They had a

711
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 3: guy from Stanford. They had all these people sort of

712
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 3: people who treated her and also outside experts, and you know,

713
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 3: the people who testified that she did have CRPS. Doctor Kirkpatrick,

714
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:41,920
Speaker 3: who runs a cash for ketamine clinic, Oh my gosh,

715
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:44,879
Speaker 3: and I don't think believes much Hausen biproxy is real.

716
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 3: And doctor Chopra, who appears much more credible sort of

717
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:50,560
Speaker 3: on the surface, but again when you dig into this

718
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:54,319
Speaker 3: guy he has He wrote, and I want to say

719
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:55,919
Speaker 3: it was it wasn't like an article in a journal.

720
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 3: It was like on a bit I think it was

721
00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 3: a blog post. But he wrote like a big blog

722
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:02,800
Speaker 3: post about oh, all of these false accusations of Munchausen

723
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 3: biproxy that are happening. I don't think he believes Munchausen

724
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 3: biproxy is real. And he cited my sister's case in

725
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 3: that article as well. So I was like, what is

726
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 3: happening in my life? It just feels like my brain

727
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 3: was sort of like crushing in on itself. But so like,

728
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:21,839
Speaker 3: he's not a credible expert. I don't think, especially when

729
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 3: you know and he said on this stand, he was asked,

730
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 3: did Beata Kowalski have Munchausen and bi proxy, which isn't

731
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 3: like quite the right way to say it, but and

732
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,759
Speaker 3: he said absolutely not. This is a doctor who has

733
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:37,360
Speaker 3: not reviewed all the medical records, who saw Miyakowalski one

734
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:39,879
Speaker 3: time after Biada was dead. He has no business saying

735
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:41,279
Speaker 3: whether or not she has. So like the fact that

736
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:43,399
Speaker 3: he was so sure about that, and like, that's not

737
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 3: how really to my mind, like having watched a lot

738
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 3: of these testimonies and a lot of these sort of

739
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:51,800
Speaker 3: core cases, that's not how credible doctors talk. Like, doctors

740
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 3: always leave a chance for something, and that's where this

741
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 3: abuse sort of flourishes, Right, There's always a chance that

742
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:01,760
Speaker 3: some kid or some person could have the single most

743
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 3: rare form of a thing that has ever existed, you know,

744
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:09,239
Speaker 3: So it's not it's becomes impossible to sort of like

745
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:12,799
Speaker 3: prove that they don't have something that can be very

746
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:15,320
Speaker 3: tricky when so much of it is about reporting symptoms.

747
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 3: But what they're looking for is intentional deception, and I

748
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 3: mean they found a lot of it in this case,

749
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 3: and just also the threat to the child. You know,

750
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 3: she had a port for medication, which gives someone access

751
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 3: to her, and Beata, we know, was giving her ketamine

752
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 3: and other drugs via her port at home. Beiata was

753
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 3: an infusion nurse, Like, there is no question in my

754
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:41,160
Speaker 3: mind that that was a potentially lethal situation for that child.

755
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:45,959
Speaker 2: Like very quickly, Wow, is this something you do deep

756
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 2: dives on in your podcast.

757
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 3: About the Qualski case. Yeah, yeah, so we actually are.

758
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:53,920
Speaker 3: My entire third season was dedicated to the Qualsky Case.

759
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,920
Speaker 3: It came because I watched the film and I was

760
00:37:57,960 --> 00:37:59,759
Speaker 3: going to do an episode on the film, and then

761
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 3: I was going to do a mini series about it,

762
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 3: and then I ended up doing like fifteen episodes and

763
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 3: actually interviewed doctor Sally Smith, who has very much made

764
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:12,879
Speaker 3: the villain of that film, if you'll remember, and uh,

765
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 3: needless to say, I admire her a great deal and

766
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 3: she has had to endure just harassment and death threats

767
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 3: and all, and her family has, I mean just so

768
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:25,239
Speaker 3: much cor abuse because of that.

769
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:27,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's just chaos that comes with us. It seems

770
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:28,719
Speaker 1: like get every turn.

771
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 3: Oh yes, yeah, that is like the one thing you

772
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 3: can guarantee is that it will ensnare a whole bunch

773
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:35,279
Speaker 3: of people like it's going to it just it's sort

774
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 3: of never and it's almost like amazing with Beauta Kowalski.

775
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 3: Like in that case, how much chaos she caused posthumously

776
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 3: is sort of an exceptional thing because it's sort of like,

777
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:49,320
Speaker 3: you know, she's been gone for years, and the chaos

778
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 3: that she sort of now, a lot of that is

779
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 3: on Jack Kowalski for sort of continuing it and pursuing

780
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 3: this lawsuit and dragging his kids to this big public thing.

781
00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 3: So certainly he's not you know, it's not not to

782
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:00,280
Speaker 3: put all of the blame on her because he's certainly

783
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:03,880
Speaker 3: participated in this whole thing. But yeah, I've sort of

784
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 3: never seen a case quite reach this level of chaos

785
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 3: because most cases don't get a Netflix film that gets

786
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 3: fifteen million or fourteen million viewers I believe was the

787
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:14,319
Speaker 3: number I saw.

788
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 2: So WHOA whenever somebody says that they are like one

789
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 2: hundred certain especially in the medical field, huge red flag,

790
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:24,880
Speaker 2: as you said. And the other thing is, I can

791
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 2: imagine there will be people who listen to this and

792
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:30,239
Speaker 2: think we're all full of shit. You're full of shit.

793
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:37,840
Speaker 2: I so the documentary and I know that.

794
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:39,839
Speaker 1: I mean, I have a whole reddit that I follow

795
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 1: where it's just doctors fighting with each.

796
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 3: Other about it, really, doctor, Oh God, just doctors fight.

797
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:45,840
Speaker 3: I would like to see this.

798
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:46,399
Speaker 1: Wow.

799
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,759
Speaker 3: I got pulled very into Reddit in this case because

800
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 3: there was a couple of extremely lively Reddit threads about

801
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 3: about the about the film and about the trial. Yeah.

802
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,720
Speaker 3: I mean, and it's something people have really strong feelings about,

803
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:02,400
Speaker 3: you know, and and I think that's understandable. The stakes

804
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:04,919
Speaker 3: are very high. I think it taps into, as you said,

805
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 3: you know, a really deep fear for parent, and I

806
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:09,759
Speaker 3: can empathize without that as a parent. You know, like

807
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 3: the idea as a parent, you're being presented with a

808
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 3: scenario where you are being told, as a viewer of

809
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:18,360
Speaker 3: that film that if you bring your sick child to

810
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:22,240
Speaker 3: the hospital they could be taken from you just because

811
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 3: the doctor like doesn't like the cutty your jib, or

812
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 3: thinks you a bitch or whatever it is. I don't

813
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 3: know if we're a lot to around this podcast, but

814
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,799
Speaker 3: like you know, thinks you're being difficult or whatever, and

815
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:34,840
Speaker 3: that's terrifying. If that were a thing that were happening,

816
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 3: that would be terrifying. There's no evidence that that's happening anywhere.

817
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 3: It doesn't make any sense. There's nothing for doctors to

818
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 3: gain out of it. They sort of do this weird

819
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 3: thing in the film where they're like, well there's a

820
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:47,480
Speaker 3: private Like yeah, okay, so Florida has a weird system

821
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 3: where some of their nonprofits fund some of their I mean,

822
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 3: it's like it's just a total red herring, the idea

823
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 3: that like any doctor is making money off of a

824
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:58,120
Speaker 3: child abuse investigation that costs the state money, that costs

825
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:00,919
Speaker 3: the hospital money, that costs every entity money, and that's

826
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:04,400
Speaker 3: stressful and horrible for the doctors also including for the parents.

827
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 3: But yeah, I mean, it just plays on really strong emotions,

828
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:10,719
Speaker 3: and you know, and I think sometimes people are influenced

829
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 3: by sort of their own life experiences, and like I

830
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 3: think sometimes people will, you know, And I have a

831
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:20,400
Speaker 3: lot of listeners who you know, live with chronic illnesses

832
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:24,840
Speaker 3: or disabilities of some kind, and I always try and

833
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:27,319
Speaker 3: like listen to them, especially about how I cover these things,

834
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,440
Speaker 3: because I certainly don't want to cast doubt on people

835
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 3: where it's not warranted. But that's why you investigate things,

836
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 3: that's why you look at the evidence. And actually one

837
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:41,400
Speaker 3: of my colleagues just told me they were who was

838
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:44,400
Speaker 3: just in a she's in California and was just in

839
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:48,640
Speaker 3: a mandated reporter training and in fact, out of all

840
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 3: substantiated reports, only seven percent of substantiated reports of abuse

841
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:56,560
Speaker 3: seven percent of children are.

842
00:41:56,480 --> 00:42:01,719
Speaker 2: Removed, similar to rape cases going to trial.

843
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 3: Exactly, Like the percentage of how much it's being prosecuted

844
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:07,799
Speaker 3: versus the percentage of what it's what's actually happening is

845
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:10,440
Speaker 3: is very minimal. So that is not you know, like,

846
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 3: has anyone ever falsely accused anyone of rape? Sure, we're

847
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:18,920
Speaker 3: human beings. Everything that could happen happens, you know, is

848
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 3: that the problem that we should be focused on? No

849
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 3: under reporting under you know, like not dealing with that

850
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 3: it actually happening is the problem, right Exactly.

851
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 2: I feel like I could listen to you talk for

852
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 2: so long because you're so precise and you have this

853
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 2: just vast wealth of knowledge in that brain. I'm excited

854
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 2: to listen to more of your podcast to conclude, I

855
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:45,400
Speaker 2: guess you know, you've obviously been exposed to a lot

856
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,719
Speaker 2: of really dark stuff. I mean, is there anything that

857
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 2: gives you hope? Where are you sort of at with.

858
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:51,279
Speaker 3: All of this?

859
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:51,839
Speaker 2: Right now?

860
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 3: I will say the thing that gives me and thank

861
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 3: you for the lovely compliment by the way, what a

862
00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:01,160
Speaker 3: lovely thing to hear, especially from a fellow podcaster. A

863
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:02,960
Speaker 3: What a nice thing to find a place for my

864
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 3: absolute inability to shut up. It's now serving me well

865
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:08,920
Speaker 3: in my career. Yeah, I mean, I think the thing

866
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,319
Speaker 3: that gives me hope is, you know, I've been the

867
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:14,520
Speaker 3: show is less than two years old, but and certainly

868
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:16,399
Speaker 3: this is you know, the biggest audience that I've ever

869
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,880
Speaker 3: had for any of my creative works. And I'm encouraged

870
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:22,319
Speaker 3: by that because I think that what I've seen is,

871
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:24,800
Speaker 3: you know, for the last five years since my novel

872
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,359
Speaker 3: We Came Here to Forget, which is based on part

873
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:29,359
Speaker 3: of my experience with my family since it came out,

874
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 3: and seeing sort of the reception of that and the

875
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 3: media is like some of my experiences with doing the

876
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:36,160
Speaker 3: media and doing press around that book, like I have

877
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 3: seen people become a lot more open to this conversation

878
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 3: about this abuse existing, and that really gives me hope,

879
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:49,239
Speaker 3: like I think we are. And then even talking to

880
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:51,160
Speaker 3: like you know, doctor Feldman who's been at this for

881
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 3: thirty plus years about like how he's seen our sort

882
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:56,880
Speaker 3: of willingness to even engage. There's a very strong taboo

883
00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:59,759
Speaker 3: around this abuse, you know, just like there there was

884
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:01,400
Speaker 3: a sort of still is, but I mean used to

885
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:03,279
Speaker 3: be much worse around like child sex abuse, right Like

886
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 3: we weren't ready to talk about it until we were,

887
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 3: And so I'm seeing that kind of begin to break

888
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:09,719
Speaker 3: through a little bit. And I think that, you know,

889
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:11,839
Speaker 3: the interest in like the Mike Waalski case, even though

890
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 3: that's obviously a mixed bag, or like Gypsy Rose Blanchard

891
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:16,719
Speaker 3: story and then her getting out of prison and that

892
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:18,919
Speaker 3: being a whole faulty role. It's like, you know, it's

893
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:23,799
Speaker 3: very complicated. There's some you know, complexities around those conversations,

894
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 3: but it does feel like we are ready to talk

895
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:29,400
Speaker 3: about it and maybe ready to look at it. And certainly,

896
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:31,880
Speaker 3: like you know, the show finding as much of an

897
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 3: audience as it has has been incredibly encouraging and just

898
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 3: hearing from so many survivors and people I did, I

899
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,480
Speaker 3: feel like we're just like, okay, like we're moving in

900
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:42,400
Speaker 3: a direction where we're at least ready to talk about it,

901
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:43,799
Speaker 3: and that does get me help.

902
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 2: Well, thank you for talking about it with us.

903
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:47,200
Speaker 5: Anyway, you have a.

904
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 1: Book coming out in the future, correct about it?

905
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:51,839
Speaker 3: Yes, I do. Yeah, So I have my very first

906
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:56,680
Speaker 3: nonfiction book coming out next February fourth from Saint Martin's Press.

907
00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 3: I co authored the book with Detective Mike Weber, who

908
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:03,840
Speaker 3: is the national law enforcement expert in medical child abuse

909
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:07,719
Speaker 3: cases and a friend and frequent guest on the show.

910
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 3: So we wrote about three of his cases that we

911
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 3: have covered to varying degrees on the podcast. But even

912
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 3: if you have listened to the show, you will learn

913
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:20,320
Speaker 3: so much more about these cases. So it is narrative

914
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 3: nonfiction about just like how he sort of became the

915
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 3: Munchausen by proxy detective, which I don't think was something

916
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 3: that he expected to happen in his life. And so

917
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:35,960
Speaker 3: that is called the Mother next Door Medicine Deception and

918
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:41,960
Speaker 3: Munchausen Biproxy. And yeah, I'm very excited for people to

919
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 3: read that. I think you will learn a lot. If

920
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 3: this is the topic you're interested in, it's a good

921
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 3: way to learn about it.

922
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 2: And your podcast, nobody should believe me, can be found where.

923
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:56,440
Speaker 3: Wherever you listen to podcasts, So your Spotify's, your apples,

924
00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:00,160
Speaker 3: your iHeart radio apps, your wherever it is where what

925
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 3: I don't know what other podcasts whatever, whatever you've got

926
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:08,319
Speaker 3: if you're like a weird android phone person like my

927
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 3: husband just refuses to be normal and have an iPhone. Ah, man,

928
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 3: they're real type. But yeah, bless God, blessome.

929
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:19,760
Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for telling us the story

930
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:21,279
Speaker 1: and coming on and sharing it with us.

931
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:24,480
Speaker 3: Oh, thank you so much for having me, and thank

932
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:28,560
Speaker 3: you also for interviewing doctor Feldman and Joe. You guys

933
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 3: are just you guys are doing a lot to help

934
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:32,919
Speaker 3: raise awareness about this, so I appreciate you, guys.

935
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:39,680
Speaker 2: Ala trust Me is produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp

936
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:41,279
Speaker 2: and Steve Delemator.

937
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:42,800
Speaker 5: With special thanks to Stacy Para.

938
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:45,120
Speaker 2: And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

939
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:48,239
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

940
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:51,759
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at

941
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:53,480
Speaker 1: trust Me Cult Podcast.

942
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 2: I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and oh La Lola on Twitter.

943
00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babe

944
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:01,520
Speaker 1: Graham Hicks on Twitter.

945
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:04,000
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word

946
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:10,239
Speaker 1: M HM.