WEBVTT - Denial to Delay: How Fossil-Funded University Research Lays the Foundation for Fossil-Friendly Policy 0:00:05.760 --> 0:00:12.040 Welcome, Mollitasted, our senior reporter editor, extraordinary. Thank you. You 0:00:12.320 --> 0:00:16.279 have been looking into fossil fuel funding in universities in 0:00:16.360 --> 0:00:19.280 lots of different ways. But there's some news recently on 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:20.479 this front. What's happening. 0:00:21.000 --> 0:00:24.479 Yeah, so there's been a lot of movement on a 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:28.560 conversation that I feel like has been going on, both 0:00:28.560 --> 0:00:31.479 officially and unofficially for several years. 0:00:31.760 --> 0:00:32.000 You know. 0:00:32.680 --> 0:00:34.920 One of the more interesting things that happened this month 0:00:35.040 --> 0:00:39.040 is a team of researchers released a literature review, which 0:00:39.080 --> 0:00:41.879 sounds kind of boring, but basically what they did is 0:00:42.000 --> 0:00:44.320 they said to themselves, Okay, you know, in order to 0:00:44.360 --> 0:00:48.839 move forward in researching fossil fuel funding in universities, we 0:00:48.840 --> 0:00:51.199 need to figure out what we know first, right, So 0:00:51.880 --> 0:00:55.840 they basically did what's called in academia literature review, which 0:00:55.880 --> 0:00:58.000 is you look at all the literature on a topic 0:00:58.040 --> 0:01:00.480 and you kind of come to some conclusions about it. 0:01:00.880 --> 0:01:04.399 And what's interesting about this literature review is that, you know, 0:01:04.600 --> 0:01:10.800 even though activists and folks in universities, folks concerned about 0:01:10.840 --> 0:01:14.080 the climate, have been talking about fossil fuel funding in 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:17.039 academia for a really long time, the researchers found that 0:01:17.080 --> 0:01:21.040 there's actually not that many peer reviewed articles about it. 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:25.080 There's not that much peer reviewed research about what all 0:01:25.120 --> 0:01:28.800 of this oil money is doing to academic research. Yeah, 0:01:28.840 --> 0:01:32.280 which is kind of crazy because like the parallels here 0:01:32.360 --> 0:01:38.160 that they drew were conflict of interest studies on bias 0:01:38.200 --> 0:01:41.600 in research are really prevalent. When it comes to other 0:01:41.640 --> 0:01:47.040 industries like tobacco pharmaceuticals, you can find hundreds of peer 0:01:47.080 --> 0:01:50.480 reviewed articles on this topic like what happens when an 0:01:50.480 --> 0:01:54.279 industry funds research. Those discussions have been going on for decades, 0:01:54.520 --> 0:01:58.200 but there's there's just not a lot with fossil fuel funding, 0:01:58.280 --> 0:01:59.960 and a lot of it is really recent. They found 0:02:00.200 --> 0:02:03.160 seven peer reviewed articles in their search, and only a 0:02:03.200 --> 0:02:07.520 few of them were before twenty twelve, so you know, 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:11.920 there's a real dearth of peer reviewed research on this topic. 0:02:12.440 --> 0:02:15.080 So to complete their literature review, what they did was 0:02:15.360 --> 0:02:18.680 they use what they call gray literature, which is reports 0:02:18.720 --> 0:02:24.800 from NGOs, reports from journalists, you know, articles about what 0:02:25.480 --> 0:02:28.639 fossil fuel funding is doing and moving through universities, and 0:02:28.880 --> 0:02:31.680 reports from students too, which are a really valuable part 0:02:31.760 --> 0:02:34.200 of this conversation, and they use that to kind of 0:02:34.240 --> 0:02:37.400 bulk out the literature review and found that there's a 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:41.160 lot of really valuable work going on to understand how 0:02:41.160 --> 0:02:45.280 this industry is shaping policy at the top levels of university. 0:02:45.280 --> 0:02:48.399 But there's also like still a lot more that especially 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:51.880 folks involved in academia can do. Academia needs to kind 0:02:51.880 --> 0:02:54.960 of turn the mirror towards itself in a sense and 0:02:55.000 --> 0:02:58.320 really take a much closer look at how this industry 0:02:58.480 --> 0:03:01.520 is shaping what's going on inside of it. 0:03:01.720 --> 0:03:04.320 Yes, exactly. I think it just sort of helps to 0:03:04.440 --> 0:03:09.880 have this report as like a official accounting of where 0:03:09.919 --> 0:03:13.560 this stuff is at now totally as we're looking towards 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:16.799 getting more information and figuring out more speaking of which 0:03:16.960 --> 0:03:20.840 I know there are also student reports coming out. Yeah, 0:03:20.880 --> 0:03:23.640 so yeah, there's a batch of new research that's coming 0:03:23.680 --> 0:03:24.360 on this stuff. 0:03:24.960 --> 0:03:27.600 Yeah so what actually and that sort of ties into 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:29.400 the literature review. So I was talking to one of 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:32.680 the researchers, Jeffrey Supran, and you know, he really emphasized 0:03:32.720 --> 0:03:35.440 that again, a lot of their literature review came from 0:03:35.600 --> 0:03:39.440 students on campus noticing stuff about how their university takes 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:44.040 fossil fuel money, and you know, there's no replaceable way 0:03:44.080 --> 0:03:47.000 of doing research on a campus that's quite like being 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:49.120 on the campus and being in the campus culture and 0:03:49.280 --> 0:03:53.320 understanding the way a school works, whether you work there 0:03:53.440 --> 0:03:55.720 or you're a student there, or you're an a lum 0:03:56.040 --> 0:03:59.160 Those are really the front lines of understanding this kind 0:03:59.200 --> 0:04:03.800 of stuff. And so there's been a push from a 0:04:03.840 --> 0:04:07.560 group called the Campus Climate Network. They have gathered students 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:10.760 on a couple of different universities across the US and 0:04:11.040 --> 0:04:14.760 some international groups as well, and the first batch of 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:19.320 their reports on how fossil fuel money is working throughout 0:04:19.400 --> 0:04:23.560 their specific universities were also released in September, and these 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:27.320 students put a lot of really interesting numbers on a 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:30.200 problem that doesn't have a lot of numbers right now. 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:34.240 I think the last real accounting was Data for Progress 0:04:34.440 --> 0:04:37.520 estimated back in twenty twenty three that five fossil fuel 0:04:37.560 --> 0:04:41.320 companies had donated I think seven hundred million to a 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:45.280 group of US universities over the past decade, and they 0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:48.000 said that was almost certainly an undercount, and really turns 0:04:48.000 --> 0:04:51.159 out it was. So One number that really shocked me 0:04:52.000 --> 0:04:55.080 was students at Columbia really buckled down and combed their 0:04:55.200 --> 0:04:58.560 universities public facing documents like stuff they could obtain publicly. 0:04:58.600 --> 0:05:01.159 This isn't any sort of pea into the inner workings 0:05:01.160 --> 0:05:03.400 of Columbia. They just sat down and they did the work. 0:05:03.640 --> 0:05:06.000 They expanded the reach a little bit to not just 0:05:06.480 --> 0:05:09.240 five major fossil fuel companies, but a variety of different 0:05:09.240 --> 0:05:13.200 fossil fuel influences, and by their calculations, Columbia has taken 0:05:13.600 --> 0:05:16.640 I think more than thirty seven million since two thousand 0:05:16.640 --> 0:05:20.880 and five in fossil fuel funding, which includes an environmental 0:05:20.920 --> 0:05:26.880 health professorship endowed by a descendant of Hesse, the guy 0:05:26.920 --> 0:05:31.440 who started HESS. So there is an environmental health field 0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:34.279 of study that is being funded by like the Hess Foundation, 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:39.279 which I found particularly ironic, but yeah, it really goes 0:05:39.320 --> 0:05:41.279 to show. And I think in the Data for Progress 0:05:41.279 --> 0:05:43.760 report the number they put on Columbia was five million, 0:05:44.200 --> 0:05:46.440 and you know, it really goes to show like when 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:49.840 you are familiar with how your school works and where 0:05:50.240 --> 0:05:54.360 to look for these things, it can be insanely beneficial 0:05:54.600 --> 0:05:57.040 in figuring out where the money is coming from and 0:05:57.080 --> 0:05:57.880 what it's going. 0:05:57.680 --> 0:06:01.240 Towards totally, which is a perfect segway into the other 0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:04.240 thing that we're going to talk about in this episode, 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:08.080 which is like, I know, beautiful smooth transition, but like 0:06:08.320 --> 0:06:11.040 the students are amazing because they know where to look 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:13.480 for things, and they also like catch with some things 0:06:13.520 --> 0:06:15.560 on campus that they're kind of like, wait a minute, 0:06:15.640 --> 0:06:19.239 that seems weird. And the other great place to look 0:06:19.320 --> 0:06:22.680 for information on this stuff because again, a lot of 0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:27.000 these schools do not disclose all of their funding, and 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:31.160 with the private schools in particular, you can't get at 0:06:31.200 --> 0:06:33.599 it through public records requests. You have to talk to 0:06:33.640 --> 0:06:36.640 people and figure it out. And one of the best 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:40.320 sources on that stuff is actually other professors at those 0:06:40.360 --> 0:06:44.600 schools too, because in a lot of cases, people who 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:48.320 are working at these campuses and are working on climate stuff, 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:52.360 for example, are not super happy about the fact that 0:06:52.839 --> 0:06:55.880 other people are taking fossil fuel money. Like actually, I 0:06:55.920 --> 0:07:00.320 had an interesting conversation with Mark Jacobson at Stanford about 0:07:00.320 --> 0:07:03.719 this and how much some of his colleagues there have 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:07.039 been ponying up to the fossil fuel money trough. 0:07:10.720 --> 0:07:12.880 There's a lot of fossil fuel funding and institutes like 0:07:12.880 --> 0:07:15.559 at our university we have these institutes that are funded 0:07:15.640 --> 0:07:18.680 largely by fossil fuels. We have even in our new 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:23.000 school sustainability, what's the number one flagship research project? That 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:27.160 they're promoting. It's carbon capture besides Stanford Princeton and MIT 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:33.280 or culprits and pushing carbon capture, direct air capture, blue 0:07:33.360 --> 0:07:36.960 hydrogen electro fuels. So these four technologies are really pushed 0:07:36.960 --> 0:07:39.120 by the fossil fuel industry, and the fossil fuel industry 0:07:39.160 --> 0:07:40.320 is funding universities. 0:07:41.880 --> 0:07:45.520 And you had an interesting conversation with Craig Calendar, who's 0:07:45.560 --> 0:07:49.080 a professor at UC San Diego, both about what he's 0:07:49.120 --> 0:07:53.360 seen there but also they passed some interesting new policies recently. 0:07:54.120 --> 0:07:57.720 Yeah, Craig's doing some really interesting work and under his 0:07:57.800 --> 0:08:01.640 and other folks on his committee's leadership kind of pioneering 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:04.720 the next step forward in talking. 0:08:04.400 --> 0:08:05.679 About this kind of stuff. 0:08:06.040 --> 0:08:08.080 He teaches the philosophy of science, so this is like 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:10.120 kind of right up his alley, and you know, he 0:08:10.240 --> 0:08:12.920 got on the Academic Senate Committee and they started wrestling 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:14.560 with this question of like, Okay, what do we do 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:18.000 about fossil fuel money in our university, in the UC 0:08:18.160 --> 0:08:20.320 system in general, what are the best policies to kind 0:08:20.320 --> 0:08:24.440 of start tackling this. And so back in the early 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:28.600 two thousands, lots of schools joined on this bandwagon to 0:08:28.960 --> 0:08:32.600 ban tobacco money for specifically medical or health research, and 0:08:32.600 --> 0:08:35.760 a lot of these schools still have those policies in place. Surprisingly, 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:38.840 that policy actually failed, that you see, but they did 0:08:38.880 --> 0:08:42.000 put on this other policy where you would need a 0:08:42.040 --> 0:08:45.800 special review of tobacco money by the chancellor, and so 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:49.080 they said, okay, what if we do that for fossil 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:52.480 fuel money? And that was basically he said. They told 0:08:52.480 --> 0:08:54.760 me that was kind of dead on arrival. There's all 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:58.920 sorts of concerns about academic freedom. I think late in 0:08:58.960 --> 0:09:01.559 this conversation some times is when you bring this up, 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:05.600 it's you know, I think people who are working at 0:09:05.600 --> 0:09:09.559 research centers and at universities think that you're accusing them 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:13.160 of like knowingly conspiring with oil and gas companies, which 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:16.560 is absolutely like, that's far and away not the case. 0:09:17.520 --> 0:09:20.600 But there is research showing that when you take money 0:09:20.679 --> 0:09:23.720 from an industrial funder or corporate funder, that does like 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:26.520 set the tone of your research, whether you sort of 0:09:26.559 --> 0:09:28.439 realize it or not. You know, it doesn't mean that 0:09:28.480 --> 0:09:30.719 you're emailing BP every day to update them on your 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:33.880 progress and destroying the climate, but it does mean that 0:09:34.320 --> 0:09:37.719 if he is paying for something, then they want that 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:40.240 research done for a specific reason. 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:42.840 Right, shout out to Doug Allmond and his team at 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:44.880 YES and their nature piece. 0:09:45.440 --> 0:09:49.160 Yes, that piece is so good and really highlights you know, 0:09:49.280 --> 0:09:52.160 and he being at Colombia is also really interesting, especially 0:09:52.200 --> 0:09:55.240 given this new student report telling some of the money involved. 0:09:55.320 --> 0:09:58.199 But anyway, so Craig and the committee sort of regrouped 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:00.680 and they were like, all right, so going to get 0:10:00.679 --> 0:10:03.840 a special review from the chancellor. Why don't we just 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:08.960 like beef up transparency disclosures around this. And I think 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:10.920 a lot of people I've talked to, and Amy, I'm 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:13.800 sure you had this experience too, Like people you talk 0:10:13.840 --> 0:10:17.559 to about this are like shocked that that's not required, 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:20.160 but like they're really there's so few. 0:10:19.920 --> 0:10:21.480 Disclosure requirements for this stuff. 0:10:21.480 --> 0:10:26.280 It is mind blowing. There's no federal policy, state policies, 0:10:26.280 --> 0:10:30.480 nothing in the state. You know, most universities have some 0:10:30.559 --> 0:10:33.040 sorts of ethics stuff, but like a lot of them 0:10:33.080 --> 0:10:36.319 don't require you to talk about where you take money from. 0:10:37.120 --> 0:10:40.280 And there's this really interesting thing. So like the last 0:10:40.280 --> 0:10:43.560 time I wrote about this stuff was around the Data 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:46.080 for Progress report and the Holy School that gave me 0:10:46.160 --> 0:10:49.880 like a full accounting of their funding from fossil fuel 0:10:50.000 --> 0:10:54.079 companies was Berkeley, and when I asked them about what 0:10:54.080 --> 0:10:56.520 they thought of this push to try to ban fossil 0:10:56.520 --> 0:10:59.520 fuel funding of research, they were like, well, I don't 0:10:59.520 --> 0:11:02.720 think we could do that without getting sued. And I said, 0:11:02.800 --> 0:11:06.080 but what about you know, which is the thing people 0:11:06.080 --> 0:11:07.800 always say is like, well we did it with the 0:11:08.120 --> 0:11:10.360 tobacco industry and they were like yeah, but that was 0:11:10.480 --> 0:11:14.320 pre Citizens United. So that's super interesting how that stuff 0:11:14.360 --> 0:11:18.239 details with this idea that like it's part of academic 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:21.600 freedom to allow people to take money from wherever. And 0:11:21.880 --> 0:11:24.480 something Craig said to me and I'm sure repeated to 0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:27.480 you as well, is that like even when they talk 0:11:27.520 --> 0:11:33.560 about transparency and disclosure, people will argue that it could 0:11:33.679 --> 0:11:36.960 impact or have like a chilling effect on academic freedom. Yes, 0:11:37.040 --> 0:11:40.160 people have to disclose where their funding is coming from. 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:43.320 And I'm kind of like I kind of feel okay 0:11:43.440 --> 0:11:45.880 with that show, Like if you know what I mean, 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:50.280 it's like if somebody ooh, like this money is going 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:52.640 to make me look bad, or it's like, you know, 0:11:52.679 --> 0:11:55.680 they're worried that they will be criticized for taking money 0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:58.600 from somewhere I don't know. To me, I'm kind of 0:11:58.640 --> 0:12:01.920 like I don't know, it just seems like where there's smoke, 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:03.120 there's fire on that one. 0:12:03.200 --> 0:12:06.920 But totally. But it's also you know, and and yeah, 0:12:07.920 --> 0:12:11.000 we talked about you know, he was like a lot 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:13.480 of the standards you think of this stuff come from 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:18.640 conversations around pharmaceutical products and like ethics around disclosure in 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:22.480 the pharmaceutical industry, and those conversations were like really heated 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:26.320 a couple of decades ago, and people were defending writing 0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:29.280 an op ed in favor of a drug while being 0:12:29.320 --> 0:12:31.960 paid for the company that manufactures that drug and saying 0:12:32.000 --> 0:12:33.040 that's academic freedom. 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:35.120 So our conversations. 0:12:34.440 --> 0:12:38.880 Around yeah, yeah, yeah, Like so that was a hot 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:41.680 button issue back in I think he said the eighties. 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:43.959 So I think that one thing I took away from 0:12:44.000 --> 0:12:46.920 him is that our definition of academic freedom, both culturally 0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:50.760 and in universities is subject to debate. I think most 0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:54.480 people now would say that it's it's important to disclose 0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:57.000 if you're getting paid by a drug company to promote 0:12:57.000 --> 0:13:00.960 a drug. But there's also this issue it's not just 0:13:00.960 --> 0:13:06.040 citizens united, but like increasingly universities and research have been 0:13:06.120 --> 0:13:08.880 just so privatized over the past couple of decades. 0:13:09.000 --> 0:13:11.360 That's a really important point. Like I know, I looked 0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:14.080 at this a while ago, and I think it's probably 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:19.400 only gotten worse. But the proportion of research funding that 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:23.480 comes from the private sector has just been growing exponentially 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:28.080 over the past couple decades. So you have corporate donors, 0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:31.640 then you have high net worth individuals donating and they 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:36.520 have specific agendas oftentimes too, and then you know, donor 0:13:36.559 --> 0:13:41.760 advised funds have become a major donor to universities as well, 0:13:41.800 --> 0:13:43.160 which is where you get a lot of like the 0:13:43.240 --> 0:13:47.360 coke money, but also lots of other hidden industry interests 0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:53.040 as well. So definitely, Yeahkes, there's a lot going on. 0:13:53.200 --> 0:13:55.720 So Craig and his fellow faculty members on the Sundate 0:13:55.720 --> 0:13:59.560 Committee formed is this policy that says, look, you can 0:13:59.600 --> 0:14:02.000 take money from fossip, fel industries. That's fine, you just 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:03.640 have to disclose it, like you have to be really 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:06.600 clear about where it's from and what it's going towards. 0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:10.240 Which is so reasonable and a really high margin right. 0:14:10.559 --> 0:14:14.439 Right nine percent in may percent of the vote, So clearly, 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:19.400 you know, I think these conversations are are, perhaps for 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:22.800 folks on campuses, difficult to have with your peers who 0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:26.080 might be taking money from a corporation and doing what 0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:30.040 probably is like valuable research, but you know, having the 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:33.720 conversations around just how low of a barred disclosure is 0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:37.920 and how much good actually just being forthcoming about where 0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:41.280 the money is coming from can help address some of 0:14:41.720 --> 0:14:44.800 the issues and honestly also just open up a dialogue 0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:47.920 about like what's the purpose of taking this money? So 0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:50.800 that measure is with the chancellor right now, so like 0:14:50.920 --> 0:14:52.480 we still don't know if it's going to pass. In 0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:55.280 the meantime, UCSD is actually all of their students are 0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:58.480 being required to take climate change courses. It's a new 0:14:58.840 --> 0:15:02.640 as of the semester and new curriculum requirement for everyone there, 0:15:02.680 --> 0:15:04.640 which is like really cool. But like I think just 0:15:05.600 --> 0:15:09.000 having people on campuses who are starting these conversations is 0:15:09.040 --> 0:15:11.640 going to be some of the most important steps forward 0:15:11.800 --> 0:15:15.000 in even just like learning more about this stuff and 0:15:15.200 --> 0:15:18.400 figuring out where we're at with regards to to trust 0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:20.320 feel money in universities. 0:15:20.720 --> 0:15:24.280 Yeah, and like where feels comfortable to draw the lines 0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:25.960 because I feel like you and I were talking about 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:28.520 this before that like there's a certain amount of this 0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:30.880 stuff that does seem kind of innocuous, you know, it's 0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:33.760 sort of like, oh, they like funded a scholarship here, 0:15:33.960 --> 0:15:37.520 or they funded uh, you know whatever. But then I 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:41.760 also am like, well, maybe I've just had that stuff 0:15:41.800 --> 0:15:44.960 normalized so much that it seems fine. But there's influence 0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:47.760 there too, And I agree like just really like talking 0:15:47.880 --> 0:15:51.080 like just figuring out as a society, okay, how because honestly, 0:15:51.560 --> 0:15:54.440 I mean, oil companies were like amongst the first to 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:57.840 actually be major private donors to universities, and they did 0:15:57.880 --> 0:16:00.040 cotton on really quickly. Like there was I found and 0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:03.080 a speech that a Standard Oil New Jersey guy gave 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:06.360 in the fifties, which is like there was this huge 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:09.320 influx of private money into universities because they changed the 0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:11.840 tax code in the US, right and they made it 0:16:11.880 --> 0:16:14.560 a write off, right, which it wasn't before. So like 0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:18.800 the companies were starting to do more donations because it 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:21.120 was like, oh great, it's a tax write off. But 0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:25.400 this guy who was at Standard Oil was like, no, 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:28.000 you guys are missing the much bigger value, which is 0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:30.960 that like this is going to help us shape how 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:34.640 people view the economy and public policy, and it's going 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:36.720 to be the thing that's going to help us push 0:16:36.800 --> 0:16:38.440 back against statism. 0:16:38.720 --> 0:16:42.120 This is like, you know, so like they were really 0:16:42.120 --> 0:16:44.200 really early, and I feel like I don't know that 0:16:44.280 --> 0:16:48.640 there's been enough of a larger cultural conversation about how 0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:51.880 much it's grown and how we feel about it. 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:54.040 I don't like when I was at school, I remember 0:16:54.160 --> 0:16:57.680 there was a huge push around public private partnerships and 0:16:57.720 --> 0:17:01.600 like commercializing the research that was coming out of universities, 0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:04.400 and like it was kind of all upside right. It's like, oh, well, 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:08.960 like researchers, you know, don't just want their stuff sitting 0:17:08.960 --> 0:17:11.840 in a lab somewhere. Companies are looking for new ideas. 0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:15.000 It's a win win, you know, and they're just hasn't 0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:18.159 necessarily been enough about like okay, but what are the downsides? 0:17:18.359 --> 0:17:18.600 You know? 0:17:19.240 --> 0:17:19.640 Yeah? 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:21.760 Yeah, And I think it's going to get even murkier, 0:17:21.880 --> 0:17:24.680 you know, as oil companies shift from like you know, 0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:28.200 they're not doing explicit deny. No one's doing explicit denial anymore, 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:30.880 Like no one is denying that this problem is here, 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:35.919 but they are adopting different tactics to make sure that 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:39.440 they stay in business, which is a different conversation, right, 0:17:39.560 --> 0:17:43.879 And so what where is the I find this topic 0:17:43.920 --> 0:17:48.280 really endlessly fascinating because I think that a lot of uh, 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:51.360 disinformation reporting has a hard ethical line, right which it's 0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:55.280 like this company is spreading disinformation, but like now it's like, okay, 0:17:55.320 --> 0:17:57.560 so BP wants to stay in business and one of 0:17:57.560 --> 0:18:02.120 the things they're doing is like funding research at universities 0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:04.119 that will help them stay in business, and. 0:18:04.040 --> 0:18:05.240 Like what do we do about that? 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:08.520 It's an interesting ethical question or you know, I think 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:11.480 Doug Almond in that paper, that twenty twenty two paper, 0:18:11.880 --> 0:18:15.840 there's a bunch of recommendations that he has, which include like, 0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:19.560 when someone from a research center that is funded by 0:18:19.880 --> 0:18:22.920 oil and gas money testifies in front of lawmakers, they 0:18:22.960 --> 0:18:28.080 should disclose the funding to their research center, which seems 0:18:28.080 --> 0:18:30.679 really simple, but I can imagine a lot of people 0:18:30.720 --> 0:18:33.719 would be extremely upset to have to do that. And 0:18:33.800 --> 0:18:37.080 so you know, like where where are these ethical aligns? 0:18:37.119 --> 0:18:40.239 Like what are we going to start accepting when it 0:18:40.320 --> 0:18:45.000 comes to money in research and what is going to 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:47.320 be onerous to the total general Totally. 0:18:47.800 --> 0:18:50.600 I've had so many conversations with people who either run 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:54.280 or work at centers that are heavily fossil fuel funded 0:18:54.400 --> 0:18:59.040 or even exclusively fossil feel funded at universities, and they're 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:02.679 line of thinking, and I think this is pretty common 0:19:02.760 --> 0:19:05.560 across a lot of these campuses. Is this idea that 0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:10.800 but we're taking it to research solutions, So it's fine. 0:19:10.960 --> 0:19:15.400 We're not taking it to fund a petroleum engineering department, 0:19:15.520 --> 0:19:19.000 like that would be bad. But what we're doing is 0:19:19.040 --> 0:19:21.879 actually taking their money to look into solutions. But you know, 0:19:21.960 --> 0:19:25.000 I had a conversation with a guy at one place 0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:26.880 who you know, was kind of like, what's like, what's 0:19:26.920 --> 0:19:30.560 the problem with that if it's for not fossil fuel 0:19:30.720 --> 0:19:33.840 development or whatever? And I was like, well, I mean, 0:19:34.400 --> 0:19:36.720 what are you researching at your center? And he's like, oh, 0:19:36.840 --> 0:19:40.840 like mostly mostly hydrogen, but like good hydrogen, green hydrogen, 0:19:41.400 --> 0:19:44.320 and carbon capture. And I was like, okay, well, like 0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:48.479 would would those be the research focuses of your center 0:19:49.160 --> 0:19:52.840 absent the fossil fuel funding, right? And he was like 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:56.360 I don't know. And I'm like, that's that is where 0:19:56.400 --> 0:19:57.840 the big question lies. 0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:02.439 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that's a great that's a 0:20:02.480 --> 0:20:07.160 great question, and like, yeah, I think I think that's 0:20:07.200 --> 0:20:09.840 something that you know, I'm glad that, like people on 0:20:09.920 --> 0:20:14.359 campuses are starting to talk about this, And honestly, it's 0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:15.160 funny because. 0:20:15.119 --> 0:20:17.479 Talk about it, because yeah, I'm like, I don't know, 0:20:17.560 --> 0:20:19.720 maybe they would be maybe we do need more money 0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:22.000 in those things. And like, you know, the other thing 0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:24.040 too is that like people will be like, well, where 0:20:24.040 --> 0:20:25.200 else is the money gonna come from? 0:20:25.240 --> 0:20:25.320 Right? 0:20:25.400 --> 0:20:27.840 It's not like there's some big pot of you know, 0:20:27.960 --> 0:20:32.959 no strings attached money just waiting to fund research. And 0:20:33.400 --> 0:20:36.000 when I've asked students about that, they're kind of like, well, a, 0:20:36.200 --> 0:20:38.960 I'm okay with less research if it means less bias 0:20:39.040 --> 0:20:41.280 in the research. And I'm like, okay, good, you know, 0:20:41.440 --> 0:20:45.679 interesting to think about, yes. But also, and I mean 0:20:45.720 --> 0:20:48.359 I think about this with with respect to the fossil 0:20:48.359 --> 0:20:51.960 fuel industry all the time in general, like why do 0:20:52.040 --> 0:20:54.120 they have to be in charge of how that money 0:20:54.200 --> 0:20:57.320 gets spent? That's the piece where I'm like, Okay, well 0:20:57.440 --> 0:21:00.399 what if they can donate, but they can't have any 0:21:01.080 --> 0:21:04.760 influence right for the most part, is not a thing 0:21:04.800 --> 0:21:08.360 that they are interested in doing. No, almost every thing 0:21:08.400 --> 0:21:11.840 I've ever seen or talk to someone about or whatever, 0:21:11.960 --> 0:21:14.520 there are strings attached. It's like, well, we only want 0:21:14.520 --> 0:21:18.440 to fund research on X, Y Z, or we want 0:21:18.440 --> 0:21:21.760 to have a say in the research projects that are chosen, 0:21:22.080 --> 0:21:24.639 or yeah, we want to have a person who works 0:21:24.640 --> 0:21:27.240 at that center, or you know, it's like there's there 0:21:27.320 --> 0:21:30.639 are a lot of ways that they end up having 0:21:30.680 --> 0:21:33.800 influence if they spend the money, and like you know, 0:21:34.119 --> 0:21:39.480 they don't really make big donations without that. Yeah about 0:21:39.480 --> 0:21:40.360 the strings attached. 0:21:40.440 --> 0:21:45.480 Yeah, Craig compared compared this to like, you know, everyone's 0:21:45.480 --> 0:21:47.440 doing it, but no one wants to show their hand 0:21:47.520 --> 0:21:49.640 in poker, Like no one wants to be the guy 0:21:49.640 --> 0:21:54.000 who goes first. And right. I do think, like, you know, 0:21:54.080 --> 0:21:56.960 if if that is a condition for accepting money, then 0:21:57.080 --> 0:21:59.680 like defend it, you know, like make sure like make 0:21:59.760 --> 0:22:02.800 sure or you have the guardrails in place so that 0:22:02.880 --> 0:22:05.760 it's like we are taking money for this specific project 0:22:05.800 --> 0:22:07.440 and we think this is actually a good thing and 0:22:08.000 --> 0:22:10.160 we're gonna like put your say it with your whole chest. 0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:13.560