WEBVTT - Doris Kearns Goodwin: America's Historian 0:00:06.200 --> 0:00:09.480 So anything new in the news. Gosh, all I can 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:14.120 think of is that Maureen McGovern song from The Poseidon Adventure. Okay, 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:19.959 there's got to be a morning after, remember that song? 0:00:20.040 --> 0:00:22.760 I actually don't know that. Yeah, The Poseidon Adventure one 0:00:22.800 --> 0:00:25.640 of my favorite films of childhood, A big disaster movie 0:00:26.079 --> 0:00:30.920 with people like Ernest borg Nine and Shelley Winters. And 0:00:31.000 --> 0:00:33.000 those are people I know because I was only allowed 0:00:33.040 --> 0:00:35.960 to watch old movies as a kid. Anyway, I think 0:00:36.000 --> 0:00:41.279 that most of America has an election hangover, but some 0:00:41.360 --> 0:00:44.280 people are feeling worse than others. Is that a fair assessment? 0:00:44.320 --> 0:00:46.479 And some people are feeling down right good? Maybe it's 0:00:46.520 --> 0:00:49.319 the hair of the dog. Who knows, But a lot 0:00:49.360 --> 0:00:52.120 of people are trying to make sense of what happened 0:00:52.400 --> 0:00:57.080 in this wild and wooly two thousand sixteen election cycle, 0:00:57.400 --> 0:01:00.320 where many people were left very late at night or 0:01:00.320 --> 0:01:04.399 early in the morning scratching their heads, wondering how did 0:01:04.440 --> 0:01:07.800 this happen? What went wrong for Hillary Clinton? And what 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:10.759 went right for Donald Trump? And I think for Donald 0:01:10.800 --> 0:01:13.800 Trump this may feel like being the dog who catches 0:01:13.840 --> 0:01:17.480 the truck because his campaign on election Day did not 0:01:17.640 --> 0:01:21.040 expect to win the r n C s modeling jibe 0:01:21.040 --> 0:01:23.680 with all the public polling and private polling, they gave 0:01:23.720 --> 0:01:26.720 a one in five chance exactly that said that Hillary 0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:29.319 Clinton was going to be elected president by a narrow 0:01:29.400 --> 0:01:32.440 but comfortable margin. And of course all of the experts, 0:01:32.480 --> 0:01:36.480 all the prognosticators, were dead wrong. And so we learned 0:01:36.520 --> 0:01:40.800 something new every time, and I think many people were gobsmacked. 0:01:41.240 --> 0:01:45.000 I like that word dot smack. As the night went 0:01:45.040 --> 0:01:48.600 on and we wanted to understand how did this happen? 0:01:48.680 --> 0:01:52.600 Is there any historical precedent for this kind of upset? 0:01:53.480 --> 0:01:55.800 And we decided we would talk to one of the 0:01:55.840 --> 0:01:59.200 smartest historians we know, who happens to be just a 0:01:59.280 --> 0:02:01.720 wonderful one her full person as well. How do you 0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:05.440 know Doris? I know Doris because she was actually a 0:02:05.480 --> 0:02:10.600 young professor whose student whose favorite student I have been 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:14.600 told was my dad, and so I met her as 0:02:14.639 --> 0:02:17.079 a kid, and I've always been, of course an enormous 0:02:17.080 --> 0:02:20.440 fan of her work. Team of Rivals of course has 0:02:20.480 --> 0:02:22.800 gotten a lot of attention. But she also wrote an 0:02:22.840 --> 0:02:26.160 amazing book that I highly recommend about the Roosevelt's called 0:02:26.200 --> 0:02:29.600 No Ordinary Time, about Franklin and Eleanor in the White 0:02:29.600 --> 0:02:33.120 House during World War Two. She has just an extraordinary 0:02:33.160 --> 0:02:36.960 ability to bring history to life and make it relevant 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:40.440 to whatever the times are that we're living in. Lest 0:02:40.480 --> 0:02:44.840 anyone think we're talking about Doris Day of Casa Sara fame, 0:02:45.240 --> 0:02:54.240 We're actually talking about my favorite historian, Doris. Current's Goodwin. Doris. 0:02:54.320 --> 0:02:57.400 I'm so happy to see you and so excited to 0:02:57.600 --> 0:02:59.920 break it all down with you. I'm really glad to 0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:01.520 see you. It's been a long time. We have a 0:03:01.520 --> 0:03:04.520 long history together. We do we do. We work together 0:03:04.680 --> 0:03:07.440 at NBC back in the day, and of course I 0:03:07.520 --> 0:03:11.480 still follow you religiously and admire you so much. And 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:14.560 if there was one person I wanted to talk to 0:03:14.720 --> 0:03:17.000 and I think Brian feels the same way to make 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:20.680 sense of what we've experienced as a country and the 0:03:20.720 --> 0:03:24.400 results of this election, it was you, because of your 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:28.440 perspective and because I think of your decency. Honestly, as 0:03:28.440 --> 0:03:31.680 a person, it's been traumatic, I think for the country. 0:03:31.680 --> 0:03:36.520 I'm getting kind of a clap talking about it. Surprisingly, Um, 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:40.240 what happened here? You know? It's funny all through these 0:03:40.320 --> 0:03:43.360 last months, people keep asking me, as an historian, how 0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:46.160 did we get here? As if I have answers because 0:03:46.160 --> 0:03:48.520 of the past, and I think part of it is 0:03:49.160 --> 0:03:51.480 that one of the things that changed over this period 0:03:51.480 --> 0:03:54.920 of time was that the primaries have taken total precedence 0:03:55.040 --> 0:03:58.760 over the conventions. If the party leaders had been given 0:03:58.800 --> 0:04:02.080 the power to choose or candidate this year, the Republican 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:05.119 Party would probably not have chosen Mr. Trump. Indeed, the 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:08.280 party was fractured and many of them went away from him, 0:04:08.320 --> 0:04:10.600 but they had given up that control. They didn't even 0:04:10.600 --> 0:04:13.080 hold the number of super delegates that the Democrats had 0:04:13.120 --> 0:04:16.320 who could have chosen and did choose Hillary. So it's 0:04:16.440 --> 0:04:19.560 partly that because we allowed the party system, for good 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:22.240 or for ill, early on to have sixteen people in it, 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:24.080 and Trump was able to get a piece of it 0:04:24.720 --> 0:04:28.200 and do everything unconventionally and make us not understand things. 0:04:28.720 --> 0:04:32.000 Social media made a huge difference. That Trump had access 0:04:32.120 --> 0:04:34.720 to the television and the media in a way that 0:04:34.760 --> 0:04:38.080 no other candidate ever has. Whoever could just call up 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:40.600 a show and have his little picture on there and 0:04:40.720 --> 0:04:44.359 make the news every day with stories and with comments 0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:47.039 that would have been a gaff for anybody else, would 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:48.800 have meant the end of the race, and instead it 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:50.880 just kept him in the news until the next thing 0:04:50.920 --> 0:04:53.880 he said. And also there's a group of people, a 0:04:53.960 --> 0:04:55.960 large group, as it turns out, larger than we might 0:04:55.960 --> 0:04:59.080 have thought, who feel that America has passed them by, 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:03.520 not just economically maybe, but socially and culturally. And it 0:05:03.600 --> 0:05:06.560 reminds me of the turn of the twentieth century, when 0:05:06.760 --> 0:05:10.080 the Industrial Revolution had so shaken up our economy that 0:05:10.200 --> 0:05:13.719 people were moving from farms to cities and immigration was 0:05:13.800 --> 0:05:16.240 coming in in great numbers. There was a huge gap 0:05:16.279 --> 0:05:18.120 between the rich and the poor. The pace of life 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:20.160 had sped up, so they said there was nervous disease 0:05:20.200 --> 0:05:22.240 all over the country because things were moving too quickly. 0:05:22.440 --> 0:05:25.480 There were tabloid newspapers finally, or telling about horrors all 0:05:25.480 --> 0:05:27.680 around the world instead of just knowing what you're living 0:05:27.680 --> 0:05:31.480 with domestically. And how that's been exponentially talked about today. 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:34.719 It sounds eerily similar when you talk about all those 0:05:34.760 --> 0:05:38.040 circumstances at the turn of the century, doesn't it. And 0:05:38.080 --> 0:05:40.120 I think that's when at the turn of the century 0:05:40.160 --> 0:05:43.080 we had populists, we had demagogues, because when people are 0:05:43.120 --> 0:05:46.640 anxious and vulnerable, they want some simple answer, they want 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:50.359 a story that can solve their problems. So at the 0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:53.599 beginning Williams Jennings. Bryan was able to get huge majorities 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:56.120 of people going for him simply because he said, if 0:05:56.120 --> 0:05:59.320 we change from gold to silver, that'll end us. It'll 0:05:59.320 --> 0:06:01.960 make everything line and a lot of farmers and rural 0:06:02.000 --> 0:06:04.440 people followed him. They felt that the cities were dens 0:06:04.440 --> 0:06:07.440 of iniquity. And so there's a sense now that we've 0:06:07.480 --> 0:06:10.400 separated again between rural and city. When you look at 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:13.640 that map and you see the red areas, and especially 0:06:13.640 --> 0:06:15.960 even in the Blue states that they were red counties, 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:18.479 um that were more rural areas. I think there's a 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:20.880 sense among people living in the rural areas, people who 0:06:20.920 --> 0:06:23.880 have lost their jobs, people who once had a feeling 0:06:23.880 --> 0:06:26.080 of a middle class background, and they now feel they're 0:06:26.080 --> 0:06:30.120 being squeezed, and immigrants are coming in, and technology and 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:32.640 globalization have changed things and the pace of life is 0:06:32.680 --> 0:06:35.680 moving too quickly for them. They want an answer, and 0:06:35.720 --> 0:06:38.600 I think Trump provided a narrative. I will make America 0:06:38.680 --> 0:06:41.920 great again, which probably meant to them not just great 0:06:42.120 --> 0:06:46.279 international terms, but great the way we once knew it nostalgically, 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:48.600 will be the center of the world. We will have 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:52.480 those kind of jobs again, We will fight globalization, and 0:06:52.560 --> 0:06:55.479 somehow focus on us. And I've always thought that the 0:06:55.480 --> 0:06:59.640 most important word in trump slogan is actually again, because 0:06:59.640 --> 0:07:04.080 it's it's backward looking. And for people whose lives were 0:07:04.160 --> 0:07:08.160 better twenty or thirty or fifty years ago, that was 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:12.520 enormously appealing. Of course, for the coalition of the ascendant, 0:07:12.720 --> 0:07:16.440 the young people, the minorities, the professional women who voted 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:19.160 in large numbers for Hillary Clinton, they don't want to 0:07:19.160 --> 0:07:21.800 turn the clock back because they were worse off. So 0:07:21.880 --> 0:07:26.000 you have this profound divide in the country between people 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:28.080 who want to look back and people who are eager 0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:30.880 to move forward with nostalgia and promise. Really in a 0:07:30.920 --> 0:07:33.880 way right, and somehow he was able to combine both 0:07:33.920 --> 0:07:36.400 of those. I mean, that's what made it work. I mean, 0:07:36.400 --> 0:07:39.160 he is looking backward and saying, we can be that 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:42.360 country we once were, not just in terms of China 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:45.720 and other powers, but that country that had a manufacturing base, 0:07:45.800 --> 0:07:48.720 that country that gave good jobs to people who came 0:07:48.760 --> 0:07:51.160 from working class backgrounds and didn't have to go to 0:07:51.240 --> 0:07:54.120 college to be part of a service economy. And yet 0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:57.320 that the world the economy is different from that now, 0:07:57.640 --> 0:08:01.119 and it's not necessarily anyone's fault. Techno oology has done things, 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:04.240 globalization has done things, and it has its own advantages 0:08:04.280 --> 0:08:07.280 as well as its problems. And yet somehow, by looking 0:08:07.320 --> 0:08:11.320 backward and then saying make America great again, he's making 0:08:11.360 --> 0:08:14.840 people feel under him, not even just a divided government, 0:08:14.840 --> 0:08:17.240 but under him, things are going to change. And it's 0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:20.120 going to be so impossible to deliver on many of 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:23.760 those things. You can't bring some of those manufacturing jobs back. 0:08:23.840 --> 0:08:26.760 Many of them have more A vast majority of them 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:31.320 have been replaced by automation, not by trade. And I 0:08:31.400 --> 0:08:34.040 wonder if they're going to have as many people who 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:38.199 voted for Brexit did a little buyer's remorse when they 0:08:38.280 --> 0:08:41.200 see that he is not quite the messiah he's painted 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:43.560 himself to be. Yeah, there were times, I think in 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:45.679 the campaign when he said I alone can do that. 0:08:46.080 --> 0:08:49.160 In this system of government, it requires three branches, it 0:08:49.240 --> 0:08:53.000 requires the mobilization of the people, and promises do matter. 0:08:53.120 --> 0:08:56.200 These people assumed there was an emotional connection to him 0:08:56.240 --> 0:08:58.520 because he would deliver. I mean, in the old days. 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:01.080 I remember JFK had made a series of promises in 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:04.360 the ninety campaign, and he finally was counting them up 0:09:04.400 --> 0:09:06.640 after the campaign was over and he got like two 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:09.000 seventy two promises or something. He said, oh my god, 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:10.920 what are we gonna do about these? And one of 0:09:10.960 --> 0:09:15.280 them was an executive order to end federal discrimination in 0:09:15.320 --> 0:09:18.600 federal housing projects. And because he had made that promise, 0:09:18.600 --> 0:09:20.640 in fact, he made it in a speech on civil 0:09:20.720 --> 0:09:23.640 rights that my husband had written. And after he saw 0:09:23.679 --> 0:09:26.520 this thing, he said, who wrote this? And Ted Soren says, 0:09:26.640 --> 0:09:29.439 I didn't write it, and so did goodwhen just remains quiet, 0:09:29.480 --> 0:09:31.880 and then Kennedy says, well, I guess nobody wrote it. 0:09:31.920 --> 0:09:34.720 But nonetheless there was pressure from the civil rights community 0:09:35.040 --> 0:09:37.400 to make good on that promise, and he did issue 0:09:37.400 --> 0:09:39.520 an executive order. It's called with the Stroke of a Pen, 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:42.640 one of his great achievements in civil rights. The worry 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:45.160 I have today is, even if you make these promises, 0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:49.400 everything is so moving forward and you forget what people 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:51.600 said in the past. Will they really hold him to 0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:55.200 these promises or did they just emotionally feel he's going 0:09:55.280 --> 0:09:57.560 to be on our side. What I think was interesting 0:09:57.679 --> 0:09:59.800 is someone I read, you know, you read a million 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:03.080 things on your phone these days, but that too many 0:10:03.160 --> 0:10:06.960 critics took him literally and not seriously that when he 0:10:07.120 --> 0:10:11.000 used certain rhetoric. It was really emblematic of a problem 0:10:11.160 --> 0:10:14.880 or illustrative of a problem. So not that he really 0:10:14.920 --> 0:10:18.400 really wanted to build a wall, but that was symbolic 0:10:18.480 --> 0:10:22.920 of wanting to get a handle on illegal immigration. Although 0:10:22.920 --> 0:10:25.240 it was easy to take him literally because he said 0:10:25.400 --> 0:10:28.000 so many times he's going to build not just a wall, 0:10:28.040 --> 0:10:30.679 but a big, beautiful wall. He described that it was 0:10:30.720 --> 0:10:33.040 going to rise like nine or ten feet in the air. 0:10:33.400 --> 0:10:36.880 And we saw actually just earlier today during your interview 0:10:36.920 --> 0:10:41.080 with Ben Carson, one of his strongest supporters, some backpedaling 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:49.240 away from the wall already. Well, it could be electronics control. Yeah, 0:10:49.360 --> 0:10:53.559 And so it's a great question what can Trump, even 0:10:53.640 --> 0:10:59.280 in a unified Republican Washington, actually get done. And it's 0:10:59.280 --> 0:11:02.959 going to require the cooperation not just of the bureaucracy, 0:11:03.000 --> 0:11:07.280 but also of a party that distrust him, that barely 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:09.960 supported him. I mean, Paul Ryan and Mitch mcconnum were 0:11:10.000 --> 0:11:13.000 kind of in the witness protection program during those page 0:11:13.679 --> 0:11:17.200 And how much how much will his supporters demand that 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:20.480 he do these things or is it good enough that 0:11:20.559 --> 0:11:22.640 he's going to a d C and he's going to 0:11:22.840 --> 0:11:26.240 mess things up and kind of create a little bedlam. 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:29.240 Is that really all they want? It's very interesting. I 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:32.560 mean maybe that part of what they felt is two things. 0:11:32.640 --> 0:11:35.240 One is he's on our side. That's the most important thing. 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:38.080 Is the person on your side versus on the side 0:11:38.120 --> 0:11:40.840 of these others, the people who are rigging the system, 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:42.800 the establishment, the people who have all the power, that 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:45.320 people have all the money. Incredibly, he was able to 0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:48.480 position himself on their side. And then the second thing 0:11:48.559 --> 0:11:51.760 is is he against the system as it's now described. 0:11:52.320 --> 0:11:54.240 And you're right, he may just be able to go 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:57.679 there and and just ruffle things up, and they may 0:11:57.720 --> 0:12:01.640 not hold him to specific promises because there was so 0:12:01.679 --> 0:12:04.800 many of them that it's impossible to imagine the one 0:12:04.880 --> 0:12:06.760 area he might be able to move forward on, which 0:12:06.760 --> 0:12:09.880 I think Hillary's talked about as well as infrastructure. I mean, 0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:13.520 if we could rebuild our streets and our bridges and 0:12:13.600 --> 0:12:16.240 repair things that need repairing, those are those kind of 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:18.360 jobs that would come back, at least for a short 0:12:18.400 --> 0:12:21.160 period of time. Why didn't Obama do more? There was 0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:25.520 an infrastructure bill, wasn't there? Tried hard many times, and 0:12:25.679 --> 0:12:27.800 you know, like a lot of his proposals as soon 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:30.239 as he got behind it, even though it was previously 0:12:30.280 --> 0:12:34.800 a Republican idea. A lot of Republican congressional leaders viewed 0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:38.320 it as against their political interests to support it. And 0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:41.160 in fact, you did a wonderful interview for people who 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:45.080 haven't read it with President Obama quite recently. That's in 0:12:45.160 --> 0:12:48.640 Vanity Fair magazine, which I'm sure many Trump supporters are reading, 0:12:50.679 --> 0:12:54.680 and UH shed a little light on what you learned 0:12:54.720 --> 0:12:59.240 as President Obama reflected on his eight years in power, 0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:02.480 and of course that was done before he knew that, 0:13:03.080 --> 0:13:06.160 you know, much of his uh legacy would be undone 0:13:06.240 --> 0:13:08.880 by a president elect Donald Trump. Yeh. I think when 0:13:08.920 --> 0:13:10.920 I was talking to him, there was a real sense 0:13:11.000 --> 0:13:14.640 of a feeling good about his term coming to an end, 0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:18.880 the popularity being up, the approval writing up, and looking 0:13:18.920 --> 0:13:22.240 forward to another life after this, knowing he had left behind, 0:13:22.760 --> 0:13:25.840 as he puts it, achievements that hopefully the next president 0:13:25.880 --> 0:13:28.679 could take the baton on and make greater. So this 0:13:28.800 --> 0:13:30.679 is going to be a big thing for him as well. 0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:33.520 I mean, if Obamacare were to be repealed, if the 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:36.840 party in the Republican side continues to have power since 0:13:36.840 --> 0:13:39.680 he lost it during his time. But when I saw him, 0:13:39.760 --> 0:13:42.520 he was just full of excitement and full of vim. 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:45.360 I wonder how different this interview might have been if 0:13:45.400 --> 0:13:49.280 it had taken place now rather than when it did, 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:53.280 because this really is a blow to his legacy, isn't it? 0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:56.720 The defeat of Hillary Clinton. Did he talk at all 0:13:56.760 --> 0:14:00.240 about any mistakes that were made in terms of Obama Care, 0:14:00.320 --> 0:14:03.560 because I think that was one issue that worked so 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:06.560 against him in this campaign. I have many friends who 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:11.560 are covered by Obamacare and their premium skyrocketed, you know. 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:14.400 I have single moms for a pain. You know, their 0:14:14.440 --> 0:14:17.040 premium started four dollars a month and now they're paying 0:14:17.040 --> 0:14:20.480 twelve a month, and they're self employed. I mean, it's 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:23.440 really hard for a lot of these people. Does he 0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:27.720 think maybe it was too much, too fast? You know, 0:14:27.760 --> 0:14:29.720 I'm not sure. I wish I had asked him more 0:14:29.720 --> 0:14:32.640 about that, because I think not only the way it 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:35.520 was administered and whether or not there were mistakes made 0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:37.680 that could have been prevented if they thought it through 0:14:37.720 --> 0:14:40.160 more carefully. And you do have a chance when a 0:14:40.240 --> 0:14:42.560 law is out there too then improve it and change 0:14:42.600 --> 0:14:45.600 it um And if there had been a Hillary administration, 0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:47.520 they could have done that. They could have improved it. 0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:49.720 And now maybe there's going to be that desire to 0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:51.880 replace it, although I don't think that's going to be 0:14:51.960 --> 0:14:53.680 so easy to do. I think it's gonna be really 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:56.160 hard to take away from people who already are having 0:14:56.160 --> 0:14:58.880 their pre existing conditions taken care of, to take away 0:14:58.880 --> 0:15:00.400 from people who have health and s ones that they 0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:03.160 didn't before. But there'll certainly be some impulse to that, 0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:05.960 which I'm sure will make him very sad, because this 0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:08.880 is a huge part of his legacy. The place that 0:15:08.920 --> 0:15:10.840 I wish I had talked to him about more was 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:14.440 he finally gave a good speech on healthcare in September. 0:15:14.480 --> 0:15:18.680 After that summer when the people in the town halls 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:22.440 had talked about death panels and turned the country against healthcare, well, 0:15:22.480 --> 0:15:24.560 you know what, the members of Congress were so ill 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:27.640 equipped to discuss it. They weren't familiar. I remember watching 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:30.560 Arlen Spector, who knew a lot about healthcare, you know, 0:15:30.640 --> 0:15:34.280 he himself had cancer and very smart guy, and I 0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:37.840 remember him being completely flamm x by questions from the 0:15:37.880 --> 0:15:41.320 audience about the bill, which by the way, was so complex, 0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:44.840 and I thought, well, this is a disaster. The people 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:47.640 are out there talking to the public about it. Don't 0:15:47.640 --> 0:15:50.160 even understand it, and I think you're so right. I mean, 0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:53.520 in order to communicate with the public something complex, you 0:15:53.560 --> 0:15:55.920 have to simplify. I think that's when any of the 0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:59.160 leaders that I've studied would say, simplify, simplify, simplifies you 0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:02.000 needed like war five points, That's what this is about. 0:16:02.320 --> 0:16:04.920 I remember there was a moment when FDR was given 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:06.960 a speech draft in which he said, we want a 0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:10.240 more exclusive America and he switched it to we wanted 0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:12.720 America in which no one has left out. Think of 0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:15.120 the difference in that. I mean, that's just the kind 0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:18.560 of language that you need to figure out. When Lincoln 0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:21.200 was talking to young lawyers, he would talk about the 0:16:21.200 --> 0:16:23.640 importance of just get to the core of the matter. 0:16:23.720 --> 0:16:27.800 Tell a story. Stories people will remember, and you have 0:16:27.920 --> 0:16:31.160 to tell a narrative whatever the policy issues you're talking about. 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:33.640 And I guess, in some extent, to go back to 0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:37.440 the Trump's campaign, he told a story about America that 0:16:37.640 --> 0:16:39.960 resonated with people. We're going to make it great again. 0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:41.800 We're to go back to what we were and it's 0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:44.040 going to be even greater. And I'm going to give 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:46.640 you your jobs back, or I'm going to create jobs 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:50.280 and build a wall and get those immigrants out of 0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:54.760 your hospitals, and and and people in times of vulnerability 0:16:55.240 --> 0:16:58.720 are susceptible to that kind of talk. Lincoln actually gave 0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:00.400 a talk when he was twenty eight year years old 0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:03.640 at the Lyceum in which he warned that in times 0:17:03.640 --> 0:17:06.080 of trouble, there is a tendency to look for a 0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:08.879 strong man, and that in those moments you have to 0:17:08.920 --> 0:17:13.080 remember what America is founded on, a separation of powers, constitution, 0:17:13.160 --> 0:17:16.320 declaration of independence, because otherwise you're gonna give your power 0:17:16.400 --> 0:17:19.719 over to somebody who's going to use your anxiety to 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:21.639 take it in directions you may not even want it 0:17:21.680 --> 0:17:23.640 to go. Well, do you think Donald Trump is an 0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:26.040 example of that? Well, the only you know, the only 0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:28.680 hopefulness I have, and this is just because I tend 0:17:28.720 --> 0:17:32.920 to be an optimist, is that there's a confidence level 0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:35.800 that will come into him. Now that might be a 0:17:35.840 --> 0:17:38.240 real confidence. I mean, he has won the presidency of 0:17:38.240 --> 0:17:41.640 the United States. When you saw him lash back whenever 0:17:41.680 --> 0:17:45.480 he was criticized during the campaign, it suggested a lack 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:48.399 of confidence. I mean, truly confident person doesn't have to 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:51.159 lash back every time they're criticized, like there was a 0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:54.560 moment when they asked Hillary in that third debate, is 0:17:54.560 --> 0:17:57.440 it really okay for a politician to be two faced? 0:17:58.000 --> 0:18:00.000 And because she had said one thing on the campaign 0:18:00.000 --> 0:18:04.040 trail and the journal, and then she mentioned Lincoln's movie 0:18:04.440 --> 0:18:06.680 and that you could be principled and pragmatic to get 0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:08.960 the thirteenth Amendment. But what I was thinking of when 0:18:09.200 --> 0:18:12.000 Lincoln was once charged with being two faced and he 0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:15.080 had enough internal confidence, he said, if I had two faces, 0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:17.479 do you think I'd be wearing this face? I mean, 0:18:17.600 --> 0:18:20.800 it's that kind of confidence that you need to stand 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:23.760 up to criticism. Or Eleanor Roosevelt said when people criticized her, 0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:26.320 she just figured they were against her ideas. She didn't 0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:29.560 take it personally. So the real question and the hope 0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:32.600 for Trump, if this whole newfound confidence has come into 0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:35.639 him because of this, will that change what must have 0:18:35.680 --> 0:18:38.800 been a lack of confidence. Nobody who lashes out that 0:18:38.840 --> 0:18:41.240 way is a truly confident person. That's what we saw 0:18:41.240 --> 0:18:43.479 on the campaign trail. I don't know whether this will 0:18:43.600 --> 0:18:45.800 change that, And that's the one hope. Maybe there's a 0:18:46.600 --> 0:18:50.119 deeper side that can come out. Are there examples in 0:18:50.280 --> 0:18:56.280 history of presidents who upon encountering the awesome powers of 0:18:56.280 --> 0:19:01.520 that office, the genuflection that often happens around them, become 0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:08.240 more humble and more inclusive. That's a really really important question. 0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:10.600 I mean, I think what we have examples of our 0:19:11.080 --> 0:19:13.520 We might not have known the strengths that some of 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:16.920 these candidates had before they became president, but they had 0:19:16.960 --> 0:19:20.680 them in them already. I mean, for example, FDR was 0:19:20.720 --> 0:19:23.959 not a humble man before the polio, and somehow that 0:19:24.040 --> 0:19:27.040 polio made him feel connected to other people to whom 0:19:27.080 --> 0:19:29.680 Fate had dealt an unkind hand. And by the time 0:19:29.680 --> 0:19:32.080 he became president, he was a different man than he 0:19:32.119 --> 0:19:34.199 would have been had he gotten in a decade earlier 0:19:34.240 --> 0:19:36.760 and never had polio. But that had already happened before 0:19:36.760 --> 0:19:39.760 the presidency. People thought Lincoln was just, you know, a 0:19:39.960 --> 0:19:44.320 storyteller who told smuddy jokes and had no education. He 0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:47.600 was already Abraham Lincoln before he became president. People just 0:19:47.640 --> 0:19:51.119 didn't know that. So I don't know that the presidency 0:19:51.160 --> 0:19:54.720 itself can make somebody bigger than they are. But sometimes 0:19:54.720 --> 0:19:58.000 a crisis can bring out in a person something that 0:19:58.080 --> 0:20:00.680 was hidden there, and that was a part of m 0:20:00.720 --> 0:20:02.560 and I guess that's what you've got to hope that 0:20:02.600 --> 0:20:05.199 when the mantle of the presidency comes I mean I 0:20:05.280 --> 0:20:07.600 thought about that for Hillary Clinton. I mean, had she won, 0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:11.120 I just had this feeling that being the first female 0:20:11.160 --> 0:20:14.159 president was going to give her such a haunting sense 0:20:14.560 --> 0:20:18.440 of excitement and responsibility that the defensiveness that she had 0:20:18.480 --> 0:20:22.000 sometimes shown would be worn away because she didn't need 0:20:22.080 --> 0:20:24.960 to be defensive anymore. She's done something great. So I 0:20:25.000 --> 0:20:27.560 guess if I'm thinking that about her, then you have 0:20:27.640 --> 0:20:30.119 to at least accord the possibility to him of the 0:20:30.160 --> 0:20:32.520 same thing. We're going to take a quick break so 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:36.520 we can hear from our sponsors and from listeners like you. 0:20:36.760 --> 0:20:46.120 I feel like I'm a PDS. That's right after this. Hi, 0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:49.840 Brian and Katie, this is Nicole. How am I going 0:20:49.920 --> 0:20:55.280 to spend my time after the election homework? Doing homework 0:20:55.359 --> 0:21:04.680 to be the best damn journalist I can? So? Yeah, Hey, 0:21:04.800 --> 0:21:07.760 Brian and Katie, Hey, my name is Lee. To answer 0:21:07.800 --> 0:21:10.000 your question, what I'm gonna do for the rest of 0:21:10.040 --> 0:21:13.000 the time when the election is over, well, I think 0:21:13.119 --> 0:21:16.959 the smartest thing is to um to see what is 0:21:17.000 --> 0:21:20.320 our new president will do for this country. For myself, 0:21:20.520 --> 0:21:23.120 I was not born in this country. I was born 0:21:23.200 --> 0:21:26.120 raised in China, and I moved to this country when 0:21:26.119 --> 0:21:29.879 I was seventeen, and um so as the as the 0:21:29.960 --> 0:21:33.399