1 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:09,480 Speaker 1: So anything new in the news. Gosh, all I can 2 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: think of is that Maureen McGovern song from The Poseidon Adventure. Okay, 3 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:19,959 Speaker 1: there's got to be a morning after, remember that song? 4 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:22,760 Speaker 1: I actually don't know that. Yeah, The Poseidon Adventure one 5 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: of my favorite films of childhood, A big disaster movie 6 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 1: with people like Ernest borg Nine and Shelley Winters. And 7 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 1: those are people I know because I was only allowed 8 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: to watch old movies as a kid. Anyway, I think 9 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:41,279 Speaker 1: that most of America has an election hangover, but some 10 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: people are feeling worse than others. Is that a fair assessment? 11 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:46,479 Speaker 1: And some people are feeling down right good? Maybe it's 12 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:49,319 Speaker 1: the hair of the dog. Who knows, But a lot 13 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: of people are trying to make sense of what happened 14 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 1: in this wild and wooly two thousand sixteen election cycle, 15 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 1: where many people were left very late at night or 16 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:04,399 Speaker 1: early in the morning scratching their heads, wondering how did 17 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 1: this happen? What went wrong for Hillary Clinton? And what 18 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:10,759 Speaker 1: went right for Donald Trump? And I think for Donald 19 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 1: Trump this may feel like being the dog who catches 20 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 1: the truck because his campaign on election Day did not 21 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:21,040 Speaker 1: expect to win the r n C s modeling jibe 22 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:23,680 Speaker 1: with all the public polling and private polling, they gave 23 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: a one in five chance exactly that said that Hillary 24 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:29,319 Speaker 1: Clinton was going to be elected president by a narrow 25 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 1: but comfortable margin. And of course all of the experts, 26 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 1: all the prognosticators, were dead wrong. And so we learned 27 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 1: something new every time, and I think many people were gobsmacked. 28 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 1: I like that word dot smack. As the night went 29 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: on and we wanted to understand how did this happen? 30 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 1: Is there any historical precedent for this kind of upset? 31 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: And we decided we would talk to one of the 32 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: smartest historians we know, who happens to be just a 33 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 1: wonderful one her full person as well. How do you 34 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 1: know Doris? I know Doris because she was actually a 35 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: young professor whose student whose favorite student I have been 36 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: told was my dad, and so I met her as 37 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:17,079 Speaker 1: a kid, and I've always been, of course an enormous 38 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: fan of her work. Team of Rivals of course has 39 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 1: gotten a lot of attention. But she also wrote an 40 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 1: amazing book that I highly recommend about the Roosevelt's called 41 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 1: No Ordinary Time, about Franklin and Eleanor in the White 42 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: House during World War Two. She has just an extraordinary 43 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 1: ability to bring history to life and make it relevant 44 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 1: to whatever the times are that we're living in. Lest 45 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 1: anyone think we're talking about Doris Day of Casa Sara fame, 46 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 1: We're actually talking about my favorite historian, Doris. Current's Goodwin. Doris. 47 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 1: I'm so happy to see you and so excited to 48 00:02:57,600 --> 00:02:59,920 Speaker 1: break it all down with you. I'm really glad to 49 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:01,520 Speaker 1: see you. It's been a long time. We have a 50 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 1: long history together. We do we do. We work together 51 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: at NBC back in the day, and of course I 52 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 1: still follow you religiously and admire you so much. And 53 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: if there was one person I wanted to talk to 54 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 1: and I think Brian feels the same way to make 55 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 1: sense of what we've experienced as a country and the 56 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 1: results of this election, it was you, because of your 57 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 1: perspective and because I think of your decency. Honestly, as 58 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 1: a person, it's been traumatic, I think for the country. 59 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 1: I'm getting kind of a clap talking about it. Surprisingly, Um, 60 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 1: what happened here? You know? It's funny all through these 61 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: last months, people keep asking me, as an historian, how 62 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: did we get here? As if I have answers because 63 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: of the past, and I think part of it is 64 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: that one of the things that changed over this period 65 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: of time was that the primaries have taken total precedence 66 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 1: over the conventions. If the party leaders had been given 67 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: the power to choose or candidate this year, the Republican 68 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:05,119 Speaker 1: Party would probably not have chosen Mr. Trump. Indeed, the 69 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 1: party was fractured and many of them went away from him, 70 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 1: but they had given up that control. They didn't even 71 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 1: hold the number of super delegates that the Democrats had 72 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 1: who could have chosen and did choose Hillary. So it's 73 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: partly that because we allowed the party system, for good 74 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 1: or for ill, early on to have sixteen people in it, 75 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: and Trump was able to get a piece of it 76 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: and do everything unconventionally and make us not understand things. 77 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: Social media made a huge difference. That Trump had access 78 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:34,720 Speaker 1: to the television and the media in a way that 79 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 1: no other candidate ever has. Whoever could just call up 80 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:40,600 Speaker 1: a show and have his little picture on there and 81 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:44,359 Speaker 1: make the news every day with stories and with comments 82 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:47,039 Speaker 1: that would have been a gaff for anybody else, would 83 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 1: have meant the end of the race, and instead it 84 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: just kept him in the news until the next thing 85 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 1: he said. And also there's a group of people, a 86 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 1: large group, as it turns out, larger than we might 87 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 1: have thought, who feel that America has passed them by, 88 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 1: not just economically maybe, but socially and culturally. And it 89 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 1: reminds me of the turn of the twentieth century, when 90 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: the Industrial Revolution had so shaken up our economy that 91 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:13,719 Speaker 1: people were moving from farms to cities and immigration was 92 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 1: coming in in great numbers. There was a huge gap 93 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 1: between the rich and the poor. The pace of life 94 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:20,160 Speaker 1: had sped up, so they said there was nervous disease 95 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: all over the country because things were moving too quickly. 96 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:25,480 Speaker 1: There were tabloid newspapers finally, or telling about horrors all 97 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 1: around the world instead of just knowing what you're living 98 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:31,480 Speaker 1: with domestically. And how that's been exponentially talked about today. 99 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:34,719 Speaker 1: It sounds eerily similar when you talk about all those 100 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:38,040 Speaker 1: circumstances at the turn of the century, doesn't it. And 101 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 1: I think that's when at the turn of the century 102 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 1: we had populists, we had demagogues, because when people are 103 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 1: anxious and vulnerable, they want some simple answer, they want 104 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:50,359 Speaker 1: a story that can solve their problems. So at the 105 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:53,599 Speaker 1: beginning Williams Jennings. Bryan was able to get huge majorities 106 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 1: of people going for him simply because he said, if 107 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 1: we change from gold to silver, that'll end us. It'll 108 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 1: make everything line and a lot of farmers and rural 109 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 1: people followed him. They felt that the cities were dens 110 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: of iniquity. And so there's a sense now that we've 111 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: separated again between rural and city. When you look at 112 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 1: that map and you see the red areas, and especially 113 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 1: even in the Blue states that they were red counties, 114 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:18,479 Speaker 1: um that were more rural areas. I think there's a 115 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 1: sense among people living in the rural areas, people who 116 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 1: have lost their jobs, people who once had a feeling 117 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: of a middle class background, and they now feel they're 118 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 1: being squeezed, and immigrants are coming in, and technology and 119 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: globalization have changed things and the pace of life is 120 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 1: moving too quickly for them. They want an answer, and 121 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:38,600 Speaker 1: I think Trump provided a narrative. I will make America 122 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 1: great again, which probably meant to them not just great 123 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:46,279 Speaker 1: international terms, but great the way we once knew it nostalgically, 124 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 1: will be the center of the world. We will have 125 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:52,480 Speaker 1: those kind of jobs again, We will fight globalization, and 126 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:55,479 Speaker 1: somehow focus on us. And I've always thought that the 127 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 1: most important word in trump slogan is actually again, because 128 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 1: it's it's backward looking. And for people whose lives were 129 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 1: better twenty or thirty or fifty years ago, that was 130 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 1: enormously appealing. Of course, for the coalition of the ascendant, 131 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 1: the young people, the minorities, the professional women who voted 132 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: in large numbers for Hillary Clinton, they don't want to 133 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 1: turn the clock back because they were worse off. So 134 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 1: you have this profound divide in the country between people 135 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: who want to look back and people who are eager 136 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 1: to move forward with nostalgia and promise. Really in a 137 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 1: way right, and somehow he was able to combine both 138 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: of those. I mean, that's what made it work. I mean, 139 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 1: he is looking backward and saying, we can be that 140 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 1: country we once were, not just in terms of China 141 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 1: and other powers, but that country that had a manufacturing base, 142 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 1: that country that gave good jobs to people who came 143 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 1: from working class backgrounds and didn't have to go to 144 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 1: college to be part of a service economy. And yet 145 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: that the world the economy is different from that now, 146 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:01,119 Speaker 1: and it's not necessarily anyone's fault. Techno oology has done things, 147 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 1: globalization has done things, and it has its own advantages 148 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 1: as well as its problems. And yet somehow, by looking 149 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 1: backward and then saying make America great again, he's making 150 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 1: people feel under him, not even just a divided government, 151 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 1: but under him, things are going to change. And it's 152 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: going to be so impossible to deliver on many of 153 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 1: those things. You can't bring some of those manufacturing jobs back. 154 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 1: Many of them have more A vast majority of them 155 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 1: have been replaced by automation, not by trade. And I 156 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 1: wonder if they're going to have as many people who 157 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:38,199 Speaker 1: voted for Brexit did a little buyer's remorse when they 158 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:41,200 Speaker 1: see that he is not quite the messiah he's painted 159 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:43,560 Speaker 1: himself to be. Yeah, there were times, I think in 160 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:45,679 Speaker 1: the campaign when he said I alone can do that. 161 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 1: In this system of government, it requires three branches, it 162 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 1: requires the mobilization of the people, and promises do matter. 163 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 1: These people assumed there was an emotional connection to him 164 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: because he would deliver. I mean, in the old days. 165 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 1: I remember JFK had made a series of promises in 166 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 1: the ninety campaign, and he finally was counting them up 167 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 1: after the campaign was over and he got like two 168 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 1: seventy two promises or something. He said, oh my god, 169 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 1: what are we gonna do about these? And one of 170 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: them was an executive order to end federal discrimination in 171 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 1: federal housing projects. And because he had made that promise, 172 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 1: in fact, he made it in a speech on civil 173 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: rights that my husband had written. And after he saw 174 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 1: this thing, he said, who wrote this? And Ted Soren says, 175 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:29,439 Speaker 1: I didn't write it, and so did goodwhen just remains quiet, 176 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 1: and then Kennedy says, well, I guess nobody wrote it. 177 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 1: But nonetheless there was pressure from the civil rights community 178 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 1: to make good on that promise, and he did issue 179 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: an executive order. It's called with the Stroke of a Pen, 180 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 1: one of his great achievements in civil rights. The worry 181 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: I have today is, even if you make these promises, 182 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 1: everything is so moving forward and you forget what people 183 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 1: said in the past. Will they really hold him to 184 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:55,200 Speaker 1: these promises or did they just emotionally feel he's going 185 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 1: to be on our side. What I think was interesting 186 00:09:57,679 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: is someone I read, you know, you read a million 187 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,080 Speaker 1: things on your phone these days, but that too many 188 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 1: critics took him literally and not seriously that when he 189 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: used certain rhetoric. It was really emblematic of a problem 190 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 1: or illustrative of a problem. So not that he really 191 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 1: really wanted to build a wall, but that was symbolic 192 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 1: of wanting to get a handle on illegal immigration. Although 193 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 1: it was easy to take him literally because he said 194 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 1: so many times he's going to build not just a wall, 195 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:30,679 Speaker 1: but a big, beautiful wall. He described that it was 196 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: going to rise like nine or ten feet in the air. 197 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 1: And we saw actually just earlier today during your interview 198 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:41,080 Speaker 1: with Ben Carson, one of his strongest supporters, some backpedaling 199 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: away from the wall already. Well, it could be electronics control. Yeah, 200 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:53,559 Speaker 1: And so it's a great question what can Trump, even 201 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 1: in a unified Republican Washington, actually get done. And it's 202 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:02,959 Speaker 1: going to require the cooperation not just of the bureaucracy, 203 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 1: but also of a party that distrust him, that barely 204 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 1: supported him. I mean, Paul Ryan and Mitch mcconnum were 205 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: kind of in the witness protection program during those page 206 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:17,200 Speaker 1: And how much how much will his supporters demand that 207 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 1: he do these things or is it good enough that 208 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: he's going to a d C and he's going to 209 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: mess things up and kind of create a little bedlam. 210 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 1: Is that really all they want? It's very interesting. I 211 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:32,560 Speaker 1: mean maybe that part of what they felt is two things. 212 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 1: One is he's on our side. That's the most important thing. 213 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:38,080 Speaker 1: Is the person on your side versus on the side 214 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 1: of these others, the people who are rigging the system, 215 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: the establishment, the people who have all the power, that 216 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 1: people have all the money. Incredibly, he was able to 217 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 1: position himself on their side. And then the second thing 218 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: is is he against the system as it's now described. 219 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 1: And you're right, he may just be able to go 220 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:57,679 Speaker 1: there and and just ruffle things up, and they may 221 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 1: not hold him to specific promises because there was so 222 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: many of them that it's impossible to imagine the one 223 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 1: area he might be able to move forward on, which 224 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 1: I think Hillary's talked about as well as infrastructure. I mean, 225 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 1: if we could rebuild our streets and our bridges and 226 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 1: repair things that need repairing, those are those kind of 227 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 1: jobs that would come back, at least for a short 228 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 1: period of time. Why didn't Obama do more? There was 229 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 1: an infrastructure bill, wasn't there? Tried hard many times, and 230 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: you know, like a lot of his proposals as soon 231 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:30,239 Speaker 1: as he got behind it, even though it was previously 232 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 1: a Republican idea. A lot of Republican congressional leaders viewed 233 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 1: it as against their political interests to support it. And 234 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 1: in fact, you did a wonderful interview for people who 235 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:45,080 Speaker 1: haven't read it with President Obama quite recently. That's in 236 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 1: Vanity Fair magazine, which I'm sure many Trump supporters are reading, 237 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:54,680 Speaker 1: and UH shed a little light on what you learned 238 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 1: as President Obama reflected on his eight years in power, 239 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 1: and of course that was done before he knew that, 240 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 1: you know, much of his uh legacy would be undone 241 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 1: by a president elect Donald Trump. Yeh. I think when 242 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 1: I was talking to him, there was a real sense 243 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 1: of a feeling good about his term coming to an end, 244 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 1: the popularity being up, the approval writing up, and looking 245 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 1: forward to another life after this, knowing he had left behind, 246 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:25,840 Speaker 1: as he puts it, achievements that hopefully the next president 247 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:28,679 Speaker 1: could take the baton on and make greater. So this 248 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:30,679 Speaker 1: is going to be a big thing for him as well. 249 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 1: I mean, if Obamacare were to be repealed, if the 250 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 1: party in the Republican side continues to have power since 251 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:39,680 Speaker 1: he lost it during his time. But when I saw him, 252 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: he was just full of excitement and full of vim. 253 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: I wonder how different this interview might have been if 254 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 1: it had taken place now rather than when it did, 255 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 1: because this really is a blow to his legacy, isn't it? 256 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 1: The defeat of Hillary Clinton. Did he talk at all 257 00:13:56,760 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 1: about any mistakes that were made in terms of Obama Care, 258 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,560 Speaker 1: because I think that was one issue that worked so 259 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 1: against him in this campaign. I have many friends who 260 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:11,560 Speaker 1: are covered by Obamacare and their premium skyrocketed, you know. 261 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 1: I have single moms for a pain. You know, their 262 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 1: premium started four dollars a month and now they're paying 263 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 1: twelve a month, and they're self employed. I mean, it's 264 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 1: really hard for a lot of these people. Does he 265 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 1: think maybe it was too much, too fast? You know, 266 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 1: I'm not sure. I wish I had asked him more 267 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: about that, because I think not only the way it 268 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 1: was administered and whether or not there were mistakes made 269 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 1: that could have been prevented if they thought it through 270 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 1: more carefully. And you do have a chance when a 271 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 1: law is out there too then improve it and change 272 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 1: it um And if there had been a Hillary administration, 273 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 1: they could have done that. They could have improved it. 274 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 1: And now maybe there's going to be that desire to 275 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 1: replace it, although I don't think that's going to be 276 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 1: so easy to do. I think it's gonna be really 277 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 1: hard to take away from people who already are having 278 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 1: their pre existing conditions taken care of, to take away 279 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 1: from people who have health and s ones that they 280 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 1: didn't before. But there'll certainly be some impulse to that, 281 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 1: which I'm sure will make him very sad, because this 282 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 1: is a huge part of his legacy. The place that 283 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 1: I wish I had talked to him about more was 284 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 1: he finally gave a good speech on healthcare in September. 285 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 1: After that summer when the people in the town halls 286 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 1: had talked about death panels and turned the country against healthcare, well, 287 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 1: you know what, the members of Congress were so ill 288 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 1: equipped to discuss it. They weren't familiar. I remember watching 289 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 1: Arlen Spector, who knew a lot about healthcare, you know, 290 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 1: he himself had cancer and very smart guy, and I 291 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 1: remember him being completely flamm x by questions from the 292 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 1: audience about the bill, which by the way, was so complex, 293 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 1: and I thought, well, this is a disaster. The people 294 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 1: are out there talking to the public about it. Don't 295 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 1: even understand it, and I think you're so right. I mean, 296 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 1: in order to communicate with the public something complex, you 297 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: have to simplify. I think that's when any of the 298 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 1: leaders that I've studied would say, simplify, simplify, simplifies you 299 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 1: needed like war five points, That's what this is about. 300 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 1: I remember there was a moment when FDR was given 301 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 1: a speech draft in which he said, we want a 302 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: more exclusive America and he switched it to we wanted 303 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 1: America in which no one has left out. Think of 304 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 1: the difference in that. I mean, that's just the kind 305 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 1: of language that you need to figure out. When Lincoln 306 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 1: was talking to young lawyers, he would talk about the 307 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 1: importance of just get to the core of the matter. 308 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: Tell a story. Stories people will remember, and you have 309 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: to tell a narrative whatever the policy issues you're talking about. 310 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 1: And I guess, in some extent, to go back to 311 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 1: the Trump's campaign, he told a story about America that 312 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: resonated with people. We're going to make it great again. 313 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 1: We're to go back to what we were and it's 314 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 1: going to be even greater. And I'm going to give 315 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 1: you your jobs back, or I'm going to create jobs 316 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 1: and build a wall and get those immigrants out of 317 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: your hospitals, and and and people in times of vulnerability 318 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: are susceptible to that kind of talk. Lincoln actually gave 319 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 1: a talk when he was twenty eight year years old 320 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 1: at the Lyceum in which he warned that in times 321 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 1: of trouble, there is a tendency to look for a 322 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:08,879 Speaker 1: strong man, and that in those moments you have to 323 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 1: remember what America is founded on, a separation of powers, constitution, 324 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 1: declaration of independence, because otherwise you're gonna give your power 325 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:19,719 Speaker 1: over to somebody who's going to use your anxiety to 326 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:21,639 Speaker 1: take it in directions you may not even want it 327 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:23,640 Speaker 1: to go. Well, do you think Donald Trump is an 328 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 1: example of that? Well, the only you know, the only 329 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:28,680 Speaker 1: hopefulness I have, and this is just because I tend 330 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:32,920 Speaker 1: to be an optimist, is that there's a confidence level 331 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 1: that will come into him. Now that might be a 332 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 1: real confidence. I mean, he has won the presidency of 333 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,640 Speaker 1: the United States. When you saw him lash back whenever 334 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:45,480 Speaker 1: he was criticized during the campaign, it suggested a lack 335 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:48,399 Speaker 1: of confidence. I mean, truly confident person doesn't have to 336 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:51,159 Speaker 1: lash back every time they're criticized, like there was a 337 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 1: moment when they asked Hillary in that third debate, is 338 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:57,440 Speaker 1: it really okay for a politician to be two faced? 339 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: And because she had said one thing on the campaign 340 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 1: trail and the journal, and then she mentioned Lincoln's movie 341 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:06,680 Speaker 1: and that you could be principled and pragmatic to get 342 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 1: the thirteenth Amendment. But what I was thinking of when 343 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 1: Lincoln was once charged with being two faced and he 344 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: had enough internal confidence, he said, if I had two faces, 345 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:17,479 Speaker 1: do you think I'd be wearing this face? I mean, 346 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 1: it's that kind of confidence that you need to stand 347 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 1: up to criticism. Or Eleanor Roosevelt said when people criticized her, 348 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: she just figured they were against her ideas. She didn't 349 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: take it personally. So the real question and the hope 350 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 1: for Trump, if this whole newfound confidence has come into 351 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:35,639 Speaker 1: him because of this, will that change what must have 352 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 1: been a lack of confidence. Nobody who lashes out that 353 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 1: way is a truly confident person. That's what we saw 354 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:43,479 Speaker 1: on the campaign trail. I don't know whether this will 355 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 1: change that, And that's the one hope. Maybe there's a 356 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:50,119 Speaker 1: deeper side that can come out. Are there examples in 357 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 1: history of presidents who upon encountering the awesome powers of 358 00:18:56,280 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: that office, the genuflection that often happens around them, become 359 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 1: more humble and more inclusive. That's a really really important question. 360 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: I mean, I think what we have examples of our 361 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 1: We might not have known the strengths that some of 362 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:16,920 Speaker 1: these candidates had before they became president, but they had 363 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 1: them in them already. I mean, for example, FDR was 364 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:23,959 Speaker 1: not a humble man before the polio, and somehow that 365 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 1: polio made him feel connected to other people to whom 366 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,680 Speaker 1: Fate had dealt an unkind hand. And by the time 367 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 1: he became president, he was a different man than he 368 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:34,199 Speaker 1: would have been had he gotten in a decade earlier 369 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 1: and never had polio. But that had already happened before 370 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: the presidency. People thought Lincoln was just, you know, a 371 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: storyteller who told smuddy jokes and had no education. He 372 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 1: was already Abraham Lincoln before he became president. People just 373 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:51,119 Speaker 1: didn't know that. So I don't know that the presidency 374 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 1: itself can make somebody bigger than they are. But sometimes 375 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: a crisis can bring out in a person something that 376 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:00,680 Speaker 1: was hidden there, and that was a part of m 377 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 1: and I guess that's what you've got to hope that 378 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,199 Speaker 1: when the mantle of the presidency comes I mean I 379 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: thought about that for Hillary Clinton. I mean, had she won, 380 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:11,120 Speaker 1: I just had this feeling that being the first female 381 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:14,159 Speaker 1: president was going to give her such a haunting sense 382 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:18,440 Speaker 1: of excitement and responsibility that the defensiveness that she had 383 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 1: sometimes shown would be worn away because she didn't need 384 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 1: to be defensive anymore. She's done something great. So I 385 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 1: guess if I'm thinking that about her, then you have 386 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:30,119 Speaker 1: to at least accord the possibility to him of the 387 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 1: same thing. We're going to take a quick break so 388 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 1: we can hear from our sponsors and from listeners like you. 389 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:46,120 Speaker 1: I feel like I'm a PDS. That's right after this. Hi, 390 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 1: Brian and Katie, this is Nicole. How am I going 391 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 1: to spend my time after the election homework? Doing homework 392 00:20:55,359 --> 00:21:04,680 Speaker 1: to be the best damn journalist I can? So? Yeah, Hey, 393 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 1: Brian and Katie, Hey, my name is Lee. To answer 394 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 1: your question, what I'm gonna do for the rest of 395 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 1: the time when the election is over, well, I think 396 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:16,959 Speaker 1: the smartest thing is to um to see what is 397 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 1: our new president will do for this country. For myself, 398 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:23,120 Speaker 1: I was not born in this country. I was born 399 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,120 Speaker 1: raised in China, and I moved to this country when 400 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:29,879 Speaker 1: I was seventeen, and um so as the as the 401 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:33,399 Speaker 1: immigrants coming to this country that I'm eternally grateful about 402 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 1: what the United States has given to me, and this 403 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 1: country is going to um continue to help us and 404 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 1: teach us and guide us, um to the future success 405 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 1: of our lives. All right, thank you. Brian him in 406 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: Canada and I'm from New York. I think that once 407 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 1: the election is over, my attention is going to be completely, 408 00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 1: untotally shifted to focusing on the Gilmore Girl's revival that's 409 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,919 Speaker 1: happening on Black Friday. I'm so excited. I have a 410 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:16,199 Speaker 1: good one and we're back with Doris Current's Goodwin. I 411 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:17,679 Speaker 1: just love talking to you. First of all, I like 412 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: your voice doors. But let's talk about Hillary Clinton. You know, 413 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 1: because on the face of it, she's so experienced, so competent, 414 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:31,240 Speaker 1: so intelligent in many ways, I think the real rock 415 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 1: star of the relationship and had to sublimate her ambitions 416 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:40,679 Speaker 1: to help her husband by moving to Arkansas. What do 417 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 1: you think happened in her campaign? Was she too guarded, 418 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 1: too cautious? Were there really legitimate things for people to 419 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 1: be upset about in terms of her judgment or decisions 420 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 1: she's made in the past. How would you assess it? 421 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:00,160 Speaker 1: I mean, I think two things happened. She ran in 422 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 1: a time when being a politician, especially on the Republican side, 423 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:07,880 Speaker 1: was not considered a positive thing. I mean, in most 424 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 1: of our country, experience in political life should make you 425 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:14,400 Speaker 1: feel good that the person has served at different levels 426 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 1: of the government. They're going to bring that growing experience 427 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 1: into the presidency. And yet the attitude towards politicians and 428 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 1: public figures in the last couple decades has so diminished 429 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 1: because of the gridlock, because of what they do in Washington, 430 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 1: because of spending so much time on fundraising. So the 431 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:34,200 Speaker 1: very strength she had to bring into this election and 432 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:36,879 Speaker 1: became weaknesses. The fact that she'd been in government for 433 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:38,679 Speaker 1: a long time, the fact that she'd been fighting for 434 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 1: issues for a long time, made it seem like he 435 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 1: could say to her, well, you've been out there for 436 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 1: so long, how come things haven't changed monumentally? And they 437 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: had changed. She had made a lot of change happen. Um, 438 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 1: she hadn't suddenly brought jobs back, she hadn't made America 439 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: great again, and the way he was putting it, so 440 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 1: she was given a negative ride for having been in 441 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 1: public life for a long time. And then you keep wondering, 442 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 1: what if the email thing had not happened, because it 443 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 1: stalked her from the beginning of the campaign to the end, 444 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 1: and if she hadn't had that, her natural defensiveness was 445 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 1: exacerbated as a result of that, her willingness or unwillingness 446 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 1: to deal with the press, I mean not having press conferences. 447 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:21,159 Speaker 1: She's so spontaneously able to talk about any issue in 448 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 1: the world. She's so gifted. You know. I've seen her 449 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,639 Speaker 1: speak where she walks around a stage with no notes 450 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 1: and her presentation is absolutely seamless. I mean, I'm in awe. 451 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 1: Her husband can do that too, but she's quite remarkable. 452 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: And you're right, she can talk fluently about any subject. 453 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 1: And by the way, when she allows herself to, she 454 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 1: can be very as you know, warm and engaging and 455 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:49,359 Speaker 1: have a good sense of humor and laugh heartily and 456 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:53,159 Speaker 1: just be normal. Now, I mean, the person that we 457 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 1: know who know her is a different person than people 458 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 1: perceived her on the campaign. And the question again is 459 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 1: if the email thing hadn't happened, which immediately put that 460 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 1: girdle on her. It's like a girdle was around her 461 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:07,880 Speaker 1: the whole time. That sounds very uncomfortable. I haven't heard 462 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 1: the word. I used to tease Obama because the idea 463 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,880 Speaker 1: for one of his signature ways of having the square deal, 464 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:18,639 Speaker 1: of the new deal, of the fair deal was the 465 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 1: new foundation, and I teased him that used to be 466 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:24,440 Speaker 1: a girdle foundation. I didn't think that was such a 467 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 1: great idea. But anyway, I think it just constricted her 468 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 1: because then she didn't hold press conferences. The press felt 469 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 1: she was being entitled. Then that whole narrative develops that 470 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:36,440 Speaker 1: she thinks she deserves this, she's not on the rope lines. 471 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 1: In the same way, there was no reason in the 472 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 1: world that she had to be afraid she would be 473 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,120 Speaker 1: asked a question she wouldn't know the answer to, except 474 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 1: she would be asked about the email. So she should 475 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:48,440 Speaker 1: have had one answer. She could have done this so 476 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,639 Speaker 1: long ago and just kept repeating it that after a while, 477 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: then they're not going to keep asking. Ultimately, she had 478 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 1: an answer, which was pretty quick and efficient and effective, 479 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 1: but it took her about a year to develop it, 480 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 1: and in the meantime there was all of this gnashing 481 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,120 Speaker 1: of teeth and twoing and frowing, and it was very 482 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 1: hard for her to get to I made a mistake. 483 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 1: I learned from it. As president, I wouldn't do it again. 484 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:14,639 Speaker 1: And I think a lot of it was she didn't 485 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:16,439 Speaker 1: really think she made a mistake, and so it was 486 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 1: very hard for her to say that, and I think 487 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 1: she felt that it was so taken out of proportion. 488 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 1: I mean, all along, she probably had a feeling I 489 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,679 Speaker 1: really don't think this affected national security, which it may 490 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 1: well turn out that it didn't, you know, given the 491 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,399 Speaker 1: FBI's final looking through it, And then just felt it 492 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:37,240 Speaker 1: was unfair for her to be argued against this way. 493 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 1: But it doesn't matter if that's what they're going after 494 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 1: you at you have to satisfy their demands and you 495 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:44,399 Speaker 1: have to tell them what's going to end the story. 496 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 1: And somehow that became a problem, and then it got 497 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,199 Speaker 1: back into the other times when she seemed to be 498 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:53,680 Speaker 1: not quite telling the truth about white Water. It kind 499 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 1: of kind of underscored a narrative about her about this 500 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:03,359 Speaker 1: penchant for secrecy, for airing on paranoia and making bad judgments. 501 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:07,639 Speaker 1: But I think the even voters and even I'm sometimes confused. 502 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:13,359 Speaker 1: Was what she did really bad? You know, I was 503 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 1: on television the other night and somebody compared it to Watergate. 504 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 1: That would be the president of who knows a thing 505 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,880 Speaker 1: or two about Watergates, said, just to put this in perspective, 506 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 1: Watergate was about a criminal presidency that started the first 507 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,720 Speaker 1: day that Richard Nixon took office and lasted until the 508 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,119 Speaker 1: day that he was forced out of power by his 509 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 1: fellow Republicans. There is no comparison between doing a kind 510 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:46,919 Speaker 1: of slightly worse version of what Cohen Powell did by 511 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:52,120 Speaker 1: using a personal email and and Watergate. No, I agreed totally. 512 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:53,639 Speaker 1: I mean, and I think that's what must have been 513 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 1: so frustrating for her and for the team, that the 514 00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,439 Speaker 1: sense of equivalency as they finally did talk about this 515 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,679 Speaker 1: is just crazy that this has become the major issue 516 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 1: to be a metaphor for all the things that we 517 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,119 Speaker 1: don't like about her. And then Wiki leaks happened, and 518 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:11,119 Speaker 1: I think people conflated sort of those emails, and it 519 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: just gave Donald Trump another chance to say the word 520 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: emails over and over again. But it's not as though 521 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 1: people viewed Trump as honest and trustworthy himself. Is there 522 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 1: such a double standard with his foundation and many of 523 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:29,000 Speaker 1: the things that he did far worse than anything that 524 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton did on the campaign trail or during her 525 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,679 Speaker 1: her years in public service. And that's I think what 526 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 1: was so hard for her because she felt that double standard. 527 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,239 Speaker 1: Is it partly because the people who didn't like her 528 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 1: were able to get to the news media. Is it 529 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 1: because there was an anti woman sentiment in this thing? 530 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 1: Is it because it fed into a narrative of her? 531 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 1: But it's certainly fed into a narrative that was developing 532 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 1: about him, But it was a new narrative about him. 533 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 1: We never knew about him before, so it's suddenly learning about, 534 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 1: you know, his foundation versus her foundation. But the contrast 535 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 1: between what we think we know his foundation did and 536 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 1: what she did again is is crazy. Maybe it's because 537 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 1: they were looking for stories about Hillary Clinton, and because 538 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 1: she had been around for so long, there wasn't anything 539 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 1: really new and fresh. I think it's so this failed 540 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 1: the vacuum for kind of this notion of equal coverage. 541 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 1: I think it's connected to that, to the media's desire 542 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 1: always to have a sort of moral equivalence. Democrats say 543 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 1: the sky has read Republicans say the sky is blue. 544 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 1: Experts disagree. You don't pay a price for that. But 545 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 1: in addition to that, it went to something deeper about 546 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 1: the election, which was the voters want to change. That 547 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,040 Speaker 1: was the number one quality in the polling. To the 548 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 1: extent we can rely on the polling, voters were looking for. 549 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 1: And these stories I think cemented Hillary Clinton in the 550 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 1: kind of corrupt status quo of Washington and Trump scandals 551 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 1: didn't mean that he wouldn't be a change agent, and 552 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 1: more than anything else, a plurality of oos wanted change. 553 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 1: And they were New York City scandals anyway. They weren't 554 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 1: kind of in the heart of Washington and the political established. 555 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 1: They were personal skill, right exactly. What what do you 556 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 1: think about the fact that she was the first woman 557 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 1: candidate of her party? Yeah, I mean I kept thinking 558 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 1: that had she won, that it was going to be huge. 559 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 1: As Trump would say the next morning after she won, Okay, 560 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: I'll do it again, huge, and then you've got to 561 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 1: work on China. I mean, you know, I predicted, obviously wrongly, 562 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 1: that the morning after people would realize what a big 563 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 1: thing this was, that two hundred forty years after our 564 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 1: founding when so many other nations have had their first 565 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,480 Speaker 1: female leader. We finally had a female president, and the 566 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 1: whole idea of her being a female got overshadowed in 567 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 1: a positive way by everything else in the campaign. And 568 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 1: I thought it would finally come to fruition when she won, 569 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 1: if she had won, And now looking back on it, 570 00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:58,760 Speaker 1: I guess we're going to have to sort out to 571 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 1: what extent there was feelings about a woman being president. 572 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,400 Speaker 1: I mean, I still think we've gone a huge way 573 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 1: and that a person could become a woman president next 574 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 1: time around. Even I'd like to believe that this had 575 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 1: to do with the particular situation of this campaign, just 576 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 1: as it did when she was against Obama, that she 577 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 1: might have won that time had there not been the 578 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 1: first African American. But it said that you still wonder 579 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:26,960 Speaker 1: about implicit bias, that sort of the undercurrents of sexism 580 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 1: just right below the surface, that somebody is not even 581 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 1: aware of in terms of how they've viewed someone and 582 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 1: judge them, characterized them, and pigeonhole them. I think you're right, 583 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:39,240 Speaker 1: and I think it goes back to what we were 584 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 1: saying before about Trump having succeeded in telling people. We're 585 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 1: going to make that older America come back again, and 586 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 1: it'll be even greater. Women are making strides in every 587 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 1: aspect of American life right now, right there, going to 588 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 1: college more than men are. They're going to med school, 589 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,960 Speaker 1: they're going to law school, and they're working in bigger 590 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 1: numbers and their right and bigger numbers than men and 591 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,959 Speaker 1: to some extent, and they have power in their family 592 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 1: relationships they never had before. And for some people that's disorienting. 593 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 1: I remember at the end of World War Two when 594 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:10,720 Speaker 1: the men came back from their armed forces and the 595 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 1: women had been working in the factories, and suddenly a 596 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 1: man will say, you've been writing a check? Who taught 597 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 1: you how to write a check? You know? Or or 598 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:19,920 Speaker 1: you know, you've become sort of a giant tree while 599 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,480 Speaker 1: I was gone. You were a little flower before I left. 600 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 1: And it created a lot of tensions between men and women. 601 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 1: And I think still women's strides today, which are the future, 602 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 1: just as minority registration and minority voting and minority demographic 603 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 1: changes are the future. Um, that's that's hard for some people, 604 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 1: and I think that's under It might not even just 605 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 1: be misogyny toward Hillary necessarily, but for changing America when 606 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 1: there's still you're still looking at the time, maybe when 607 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 1: you had a job and your wife is taking care 608 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 1: of you and the kids are at home, and there's 609 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 1: not divorces in the same way there was, and society 610 00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 1: has changed and people feel scared it does? I think so? 611 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 1: The other day, don't ask me why why are strong 612 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 1: women called ball ball busters or ball breakers? Right? Well, 613 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:10,480 Speaker 1: we talked about this in two thousand and eight when 614 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:16,080 Speaker 1: Hillary nutcrackers were sold at airports and I said to her, 615 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 1: I said, Hillary Clinton, why do you have a nutcracker? 616 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:23,480 Speaker 1: And Sarah Palin has an action figure. And by the way, 617 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 1: if the racist equivalent of that were designed for Barack Obama, 618 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 1: there would have been an overwhelming national outcry. But I 619 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 1: think sexism is convasive in a different way. And by 620 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:39,640 Speaker 1: the way, it's not as though women came out for 621 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:44,080 Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton in a way that African Americans, for instance, 622 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 1: came out for Barack Obama. She won women by no 623 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:50,680 Speaker 1: more than Donald Trump one man, Donald Trump one white women? 624 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,719 Speaker 1: Uh in the election, And so how do you explain 625 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:57,880 Speaker 1: why there was no kind of rally around the flag effect? 626 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:00,720 Speaker 1: Isn't it the trust first? Yes. I mean I think 627 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 1: we've talked about the trustworthiness and that women were put 628 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:08,240 Speaker 1: off by this narrative that was out in the ether 629 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:12,759 Speaker 1: that kept me emphasized and re emphasized as much as men. 630 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:16,440 Speaker 1: And I think they were suspicious of her, and maybe 631 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 1: you know it had to do with the past two 632 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:21,880 Speaker 1: I mean, all the things she went through during the 633 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:25,719 Speaker 1: Clinton administration, and there were lots of scandals during that 634 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:27,800 Speaker 1: period of time, which may not have been her fault, 635 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 1: but they're there and she's part of that. And there 636 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:32,920 Speaker 1: was a sense that if she comes into this office, 637 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 1: these things are all going to keep going on and 638 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,719 Speaker 1: on and on and then and Trump made use of 639 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 1: that and made that part of the ad. So you 640 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,440 Speaker 1: had a feeling that let's just start afresh, even though 641 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:45,840 Speaker 1: this guy is hardly fresh, but start afresh with somebody. 642 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:48,800 Speaker 1: And yet fatigue was a real thing, don't you think, tors. 643 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:51,560 Speaker 1: I mean, they've been in public life, as we've heard 644 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:56,400 Speaker 1: often repeated by Donald Trump, thirty years and it's very unusual, 645 00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:58,640 Speaker 1: is it not. Well you could tell us as a 646 00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 1: historian for a family dynasty to go on for that long. 647 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:08,520 Speaker 1: I mean, the Roosevelts didn't, I guess if you see, 648 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:16,640 Speaker 1: you know, the Kennedy's but but but Robert tragically, of course, 649 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:22,719 Speaker 1: was assassinated. Teddy never quite reached that level of you know, 650 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,799 Speaker 1: he never became presidatever became president. No. You know, it's 651 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,920 Speaker 1: interesting to look back to the spring before this all began. 652 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 1: We thought we'd be pitting two dynasties against one another, 653 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:34,760 Speaker 1: Jeff Bush and Hillary Clinton. And indeed, had the party 654 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:37,359 Speaker 1: leaders had control, if it had been the old days 655 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,480 Speaker 1: when the conventions chose, they would have chosen those two people. 656 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:42,880 Speaker 1: I mean, Bush was way ahead in public opinion polls 657 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:47,080 Speaker 1: and endorsements, and you know, in the super delegates fundraising, 658 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:49,880 Speaker 1: and so was she. And then we were worried that 659 00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 1: there'd be this you know, frustration with always having the 660 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:55,640 Speaker 1: same people come back again and again. There was so 661 00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:57,919 Speaker 1: I guess there was. I think that's right. I've never 662 00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:02,000 Speaker 1: seen so many big D Democrats. It's more suspicious of 663 00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:06,160 Speaker 1: little D Democracy than in the aftermath of this election. 664 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:10,839 Speaker 1: They're feeling like they don't recognize their fellow Americans. There's 665 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:16,600 Speaker 1: a sense in blue, urban professional America of a big 666 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:22,399 Speaker 1: gulf of really two America's. Are there historical examples of 667 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:27,440 Speaker 1: us pulling ourselves together and bridging those divides. I think 668 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:29,840 Speaker 1: you've raised a really important point, which is that the 669 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:34,600 Speaker 1: polarization is not just political right now. It's social, it's economic, 670 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,759 Speaker 1: it's the diversity of the country. If you're living on 671 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,160 Speaker 1: the coasts and you're used to living with people who 672 00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:45,480 Speaker 1: are of different races, religions, colors, um sexual orientation, you've 673 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,399 Speaker 1: gotten accustomed to it. They're not the other anymore. They're 674 00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,160 Speaker 1: part of your neighborhood. They're the kids your kids go 675 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:53,760 Speaker 1: to school with. But if you're living in those rural 676 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:57,719 Speaker 1: areas and you're more remote, then those people become others. 677 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,480 Speaker 1: And that's the really scary thing in a democracy, because 678 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:02,960 Speaker 1: one of the things Teddy Roosevelt said is that the 679 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,160 Speaker 1: most important part of a democracy is fellow feeling, that 680 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:09,120 Speaker 1: you can understand people's point of view who are different 681 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,759 Speaker 1: from your os and to know that a politician has 682 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,680 Speaker 1: to be able to go into those areas, maybe even 683 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:17,560 Speaker 1: self consciously at first, but then it becomes part of 684 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,839 Speaker 1: them to really figure out how other people live. And 685 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:23,239 Speaker 1: because of the way we've divided our country right now, 686 00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:25,080 Speaker 1: and because of the way the media is divided, you're 687 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:27,799 Speaker 1: only watching the program, you might want to watch your 688 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,400 Speaker 1: shopping in the stores where you're fellow people's store. I mean, 689 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:34,320 Speaker 1: some of these sociological studies are scary. Then then people 690 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:38,920 Speaker 1: are just isolating themselves away from the diversity of the country. 691 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:41,239 Speaker 1: And the diversity of the country is the future that 692 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,880 Speaker 1: is America. And so the more we can get people 693 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:48,520 Speaker 1: moving together and and living together and seeing other sides. 694 00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 1: I mean, it was so hopeful the rights that that 695 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:54,200 Speaker 1: sexual orientation got during this period of time. That's made 696 00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:56,319 Speaker 1: me feel we were moving faster than I thought we were. 697 00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:58,839 Speaker 1: But I think that's fairly really threatening to some people. 698 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,160 Speaker 1: And I think that words more than we realize. Our 699 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,840 Speaker 1: podcast and talked about this feeling of stuckness that people 700 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:08,440 Speaker 1: had and sort of how threatening some of these rapid 701 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:14,280 Speaker 1: cultural and you know, social changes have been to people 702 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 1: who are more traditional And you know, I'm doing a 703 00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:22,320 Speaker 1: documentary right now on gender and how you know, gender 704 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:26,879 Speaker 1: nonconforming people and the fact that transgender people are much 705 00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:30,360 Speaker 1: more comfortable kind of going beyond the binary. And I 706 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:32,399 Speaker 1: was saying to Brian, oh my god, you know, this 707 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:36,160 Speaker 1: is another thing that's very hard for even progressive minded 708 00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:40,000 Speaker 1: people to kind of grasp. People I think who are 709 00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:43,920 Speaker 1: not exposed to this, who don't know anybody who's experiencing this, 710 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:48,719 Speaker 1: are going to think, oh my god, this is absolute insanity. Now, 711 00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:51,080 Speaker 1: I think change is harder for any of us. I mean, 712 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:53,399 Speaker 1: you think about it, it's it's a difficult thing when 713 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:57,080 Speaker 1: you've gotten into your rituals, your way of thinking, relationships 714 00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:00,080 Speaker 1: within a family, and and then it gets changed. And 715 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:02,000 Speaker 1: I mean, that's what they said at the turn of 716 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:05,080 Speaker 1: the twentieth century, that people were suffering from nervous anxiety 717 00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:07,799 Speaker 1: and depression more than ever before, and they figured it 718 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,720 Speaker 1: was just that they couldn't cope with the changing America. 719 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,239 Speaker 1: So I think that's what we're feeling right now. I 720 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:19,160 Speaker 1: think also exacerbated by technology. And then you have you know, 721 00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:22,319 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm addicted to my iPhone. It's sick. If 722 00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:25,880 Speaker 1: I can't find it, I completely panic. And our phones 723 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,480 Speaker 1: also filter information to us that reinforces what we already 724 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,360 Speaker 1: accentuates those beliefs. So it used to be, of course, 725 00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,120 Speaker 1: in history, we would agree on a set of facts 726 00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:38,279 Speaker 1: and then disagree on a set of opinions. Now we 727 00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,600 Speaker 1: have different facts, right, and you don't have like in 728 00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,240 Speaker 1: the old days when there were three networks. You could 729 00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,319 Speaker 1: listen objectively to what the facts were and then they 730 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:50,640 Speaker 1: might be shading differently. But now you're not even getting 731 00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:53,840 Speaker 1: the same facts. In what I have fake news organizations 732 00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,520 Speaker 1: that are just feeding I mean the stuff that's completely 733 00:39:57,120 --> 00:39:59,919 Speaker 1: made up, And how can you tell the difference because 734 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,600 Speaker 1: are so much of it? Now you can say anything 735 00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:04,799 Speaker 1: and you have access to the bully pulpit. I mean 736 00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:07,520 Speaker 1: that when Teddy Bosevelt used the word bully pulpit, he 737 00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:10,840 Speaker 1: meant that the president has a peculiar power to mobilize 738 00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:15,160 Speaker 1: public support because he's president and he's got that foghorn 739 00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:17,600 Speaker 1: in a certain sense of the president. Everybody has a 740 00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:20,360 Speaker 1: bully pulpit now, and you can't even distinguish one person's 741 00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:23,280 Speaker 1: thoughts from another. And you can choose which bully pulpit 742 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:25,920 Speaker 1: you want to listen to, whether it's Rachel Maddow's or 743 00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:29,320 Speaker 1: Sean Hannity's. What do you think is the future of 744 00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:32,000 Speaker 1: the Republican Party in the future of the Democratic Party. 745 00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:35,080 Speaker 1: Obviously that's a big magilla of a question, Doris, but 746 00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:38,399 Speaker 1: I think that's what people are wondering, especially with sort 747 00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:42,040 Speaker 1: of the Bernie Sanders people to the left of Hillary Clinton. 748 00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:46,120 Speaker 1: And then of course you've got moderate Republicans who you know, 749 00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:49,160 Speaker 1: as Brian said, we're in the witness protection program when 750 00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:52,000 Speaker 1: it came to the Trump candidacy. So how does this 751 00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:55,600 Speaker 1: all settled down? I mean, I think the even deeper 752 00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:58,440 Speaker 1: question is what is the future of parties in general? 753 00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:02,160 Speaker 1: I mean parties power used to come from having an 754 00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:04,640 Speaker 1: influence over who the nominee of the party would be. 755 00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:08,200 Speaker 1: That was their major function at those conventions, and especially 756 00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:11,160 Speaker 1: now as we've seen with Mr Trump this time, he 757 00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:13,840 Speaker 1: didn't need the party for advertising, he didn't need the 758 00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:16,200 Speaker 1: party for funding, he didn't need the party to get 759 00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:19,359 Speaker 1: on television. He could do it as an entrepreneur. So 760 00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:22,680 Speaker 1: the question will be will parties themselves have the strength 761 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:24,560 Speaker 1: that they did way back in the nineteenth century. In 762 00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:28,040 Speaker 1: the nineteenth century, you identified with the party as you 763 00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,600 Speaker 1: did with your religion. You know, you were a Democrat, 764 00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:32,719 Speaker 1: or you were a Republican, or you've been a Whig 765 00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:35,120 Speaker 1: before that. That was part of who you were. You 766 00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:37,879 Speaker 1: read the partisan newspapers, you didn't read what the other 767 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:40,200 Speaker 1: people were saying. I mean, in the in the thing 768 00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:42,759 Speaker 1: that would be written about the Lincoln Douglas debates, in 769 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:45,760 Speaker 1: the Republican newspaper, they would say Lincoln was so great 770 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:48,200 Speaker 1: and people carried him off the off the stands in 771 00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:50,400 Speaker 1: their arms. In the Democratic news where they say he 772 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:52,400 Speaker 1: fell on the floor, he was so bad it was 773 00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:54,399 Speaker 1: embarrassing that people had to get him out of that. 774 00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,680 Speaker 1: The difference is that's right that at least not seeing 775 00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:03,200 Speaker 1: it every night on television, you're just reading it in 776 00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:06,239 Speaker 1: your own partisan press. So little kids are not being 777 00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:08,359 Speaker 1: coursened by they They may have said bad things about 778 00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:10,879 Speaker 1: each other then too, which they did, but little kids 779 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:13,000 Speaker 1: aren't being coursened by the dialogue the way we have 780 00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:15,360 Speaker 1: this year. But I think both parties are going to 781 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:17,480 Speaker 1: have to go through a soul searching. I mean, even 782 00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:20,200 Speaker 1: though Trump is one, is it clear that he's really 783 00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:23,200 Speaker 1: a Republican and is he going to bear the standard 784 00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:24,880 Speaker 1: of the Republican Party and how is he going to 785 00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:27,960 Speaker 1: get along with those people? And the Democrats are going 786 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:30,680 Speaker 1: to have to figure out what happened to their traditional base, 787 00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:33,480 Speaker 1: which was the white working class base. I mean, some 788 00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:36,000 Speaker 1: people have said they discarded that base. I'm not sure 789 00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:38,799 Speaker 1: that's true. I think technology undid that base in a 790 00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:41,560 Speaker 1: certain sense. I think that base discarded them. Yeah, it 791 00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:44,200 Speaker 1: could well be. So you you said at the beginning 792 00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:47,759 Speaker 1: of this conversation, you're an optimist. Are you still an optimist? 793 00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:49,480 Speaker 1: Because I think there are a lot of people out 794 00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:53,120 Speaker 1: there who are really worried about the country and are 795 00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:56,840 Speaker 1: you know, pretty depressed about the state of affairs. I 796 00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,480 Speaker 1: guess the only way you can feel optimistic right now 797 00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:02,480 Speaker 1: is that these peaceful transitions of powers we've seen in 798 00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:05,239 Speaker 1: even worse times. I mean, when you think about Jefferson 799 00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:07,960 Speaker 1: coming in way back after Adams, the first time that 800 00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:10,759 Speaker 1: a new party had come into being, people thought it 801 00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:12,879 Speaker 1: was the end of the world to lose the Federalists. 802 00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:15,120 Speaker 1: And he comes in and he gives this great inaugural. 803 00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:18,400 Speaker 1: We are all Republicans, we are all Federalists, and differences 804 00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:20,680 Speaker 1: of opinion don't have to be differences of principle. And 805 00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:23,960 Speaker 1: he became a very strong president. And you think about 806 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,320 Speaker 1: even Teddy Roosevelt in nineteen twelve, when the Republican Party 807 00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:29,480 Speaker 1: was fractured and it looked like it would never come 808 00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:32,480 Speaker 1: back together again, and it it did lose the election 809 00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:34,520 Speaker 1: in twelve and sixteen, but then in the twenties it 810 00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:38,879 Speaker 1: wins three elections in a row, so we do heal 811 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:42,560 Speaker 1: these things somehow. There are cycles in history. The most 812 00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:45,920 Speaker 1: worrisome thing I have about the future is our best 813 00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:49,200 Speaker 1: young people wanting to enter public life, and the fact 814 00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:51,960 Speaker 1: of having seen people in the last couple of decades 815 00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:55,000 Speaker 1: that you don't feel are your heroes in Washington in 816 00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:57,440 Speaker 1: the Congress because they can't get anything done. You know, 817 00:43:57,520 --> 00:43:59,439 Speaker 1: they have to be spending a huge mat of their 818 00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:02,520 Speaker 1: time ailing for money. You know that your private life 819 00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:04,480 Speaker 1: is going to be exposed now by the media if 820 00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:07,239 Speaker 1: you enter public life. So people that might have wanted 821 00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:09,719 Speaker 1: to go into politics in the old days are not 822 00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:12,320 Speaker 1: doing it necessarily because we didn't have a huge bench 823 00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:14,879 Speaker 1: for this presidential campaign when you think about it, right, 824 00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:18,239 Speaker 1: and there should have been so many people that you 825 00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:25,920 Speaker 1: wanted to know, But ultimately I think we ended up 826 00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:30,000 Speaker 1: with people thinking is this the best we have? Right? 827 00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:32,720 Speaker 1: I think that's exactly right. So what I keep hoping 828 00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:35,880 Speaker 1: for is that maybe there'll be some national service program 829 00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:37,520 Speaker 1: that starts, because I think one of the things that 830 00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:40,000 Speaker 1: made politics work better in the past was that a 831 00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:42,319 Speaker 1: lot of our politicians had been in World War Two 832 00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:44,680 Speaker 1: together the Korean War, and they knew what it was 833 00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:47,120 Speaker 1: like to have a common mission with a common purpose, 834 00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:50,200 Speaker 1: and to work across racial party lines. And if we 835 00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:53,200 Speaker 1: had some national service program for young people so that 836 00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:55,759 Speaker 1: they were brought out of these silos in which they're 837 00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:59,200 Speaker 1: now living and work together, and then maybe that translates 838 00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:02,120 Speaker 1: into one to be in public service in the future. 839 00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:05,040 Speaker 1: Because something has to make us feel that politics is 840 00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:07,960 Speaker 1: an honorable vocation. Again. We can't just think outsiders are 841 00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:10,040 Speaker 1: the only people who can do it. Where democracy. We 842 00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:13,360 Speaker 1: have to believe in our public figures. Doris Karent's goodwin. 843 00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:15,560 Speaker 1: How do you keep all those facts, figures and dates 844 00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:18,480 Speaker 1: in that pretty little ahead of yours? Just history? Ask 845 00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:20,839 Speaker 1: me anything else about science or math, and it would 846 00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:22,920 Speaker 1: be gone. It would never be even in there. That's 847 00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:27,840 Speaker 1: why there's a lot of room in there. Because anyway, 848 00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:31,399 Speaker 1: thank you so much. Fun to talk to you. Maybe 849 00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:35,080 Speaker 1: you'll come back after Donald Trump is in office for 850 00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:37,560 Speaker 1: a little while. I can't even believe I'm saying that's 851 00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:42,279 Speaker 1: right now actually, and see what kind of president he 852 00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:44,560 Speaker 1: seems to be become. We'd be glad to talk to 853 00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:49,960 Speaker 1: you anytime. You guys, thank you so of course we 854 00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:52,240 Speaker 1: want to thank you Anna Palmer for producing the show 855 00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:56,000 Speaker 1: and Jared O'Connell for engineering it. Thanks also to Mark 856 00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:59,760 Speaker 1: Phillips for Archriffic theme music. And remember you can email 857 00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:03,319 Speaker 1: set comments at correct podcast dot com or find me 858 00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:06,680 Speaker 1: on social media too. I'm Katie Couric at Katie Couric 859 00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:10,120 Speaker 1: on Twitter and Instagram and Katie dot correct on Snapchat. 860 00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:14,120 Speaker 1: So okay. Best of all, you can rate and review 861 00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:17,359 Speaker 1: us on iTunes. We'd really appreciate if you would do that, 862 00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:20,680 Speaker 1: And don't forget to subscribe to and our question for 863 00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:24,720 Speaker 1: next week is what's your biggest hope and biggest fear 864 00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:28,480 Speaker 1: about a Trump presidency? And keep it snappy, people, we 865 00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:30,000 Speaker 1: don't have all the time in the world to listen 866 00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:34,719 Speaker 1: to these things. Leave us a message at four four 867 00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:39,920 Speaker 1: six seven. Talk to you next time. Adios amigos, as 868 00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:58,200 Speaker 1: President elect Trump would say hello, Brian Yo