WEBVTT - Lessons From a Grief Therapist 0:00:14.916 --> 0:00:35.276 Pushkin. When you're kind of in trauma, everything is like 0:00:35.356 --> 0:00:37.916 your body is on far and you're drowning at the 0:00:37.956 --> 0:00:42.516 same time, so that everything is hawa. But by having small, 0:00:43.276 --> 0:00:49.476 bite sized, very manageable structures and rituals, they just bring 0:00:49.516 --> 0:00:52.236 you down a little bit to that sense of safety, 0:00:52.316 --> 0:00:55.556 and feeling safe in your body and your mind and 0:00:55.676 --> 0:01:00.156 in your home gives you a kind of robustness to 0:01:00.236 --> 0:01:04.396 deal with the onslaught of the feelings of your trauma 0:01:04.436 --> 0:01:08.436 and the loss. Julia Samuel has worked for thirty years 0:01:08.436 --> 0:01:10.956 as a grief counselor in the UK and as an 0:01:10.956 --> 0:01:14.076 expert on trauma and loss. She's also the author of 0:01:14.156 --> 0:01:17.636 two best selling books, Grief Works and This Too Shall Pass. 0:01:18.716 --> 0:01:21.596 Julia has counseled thousands of people through their grief and 0:01:21.636 --> 0:01:24.636 has identified strategies that can help all of us navigate 0:01:24.676 --> 0:01:27.756 the loss of a loved one. You know, people say 0:01:27.836 --> 0:01:33.756 time is a great healer and the pain of grief 0:01:34.196 --> 0:01:38.796 does change over time, but if we aren't active in 0:01:38.876 --> 0:01:44.036 the process of grieving, it doesn't change so much. It 0:01:44.076 --> 0:01:47.956 just gets shut down, so that the things you do 0:01:47.996 --> 0:01:50.996 to block your pain are in the end the things 0:01:50.996 --> 0:01:57.036 that harm you over time. On today's episode, Lessons from 0:01:57.036 --> 0:02:02.356 a Grief Therapist. I'm Maya Shunker, and this is a 0:02:02.396 --> 0:02:04.916 slight change of plans, a show about who we are 0:02:05.036 --> 0:02:07.556 and who we become in the face of a big change. 0:02:12.636 --> 0:02:16.396 You know, Julia, you refer to death as the great 0:02:16.516 --> 0:02:21.756 last taboo that we resist. We resist using the word death. 0:02:21.916 --> 0:02:26.716 We prefer euphemisms like loss and passed away. And we 0:02:26.756 --> 0:02:29.596 can be so scared of death that sometimes we engage 0:02:30.036 --> 0:02:33.276 in magical thinking right where we believe that maybe if 0:02:33.276 --> 0:02:35.356 we don't talk about it, it won't happen to us. 0:02:35.836 --> 0:02:41.596 And so, given this very natural desire to resist talking 0:02:42.116 --> 0:02:45.636 or thinking about death, I'm curious to know what led 0:02:45.676 --> 0:02:49.876 you initially to run directly into the fire, directly into 0:02:49.916 --> 0:02:54.676 that emotional fire, and become a grief therapist. I mean, 0:02:54.716 --> 0:02:57.516 I don't think I recognize what I was doing. I 0:02:57.556 --> 0:03:00.316 think like most of us probably don't realize until after 0:03:00.356 --> 0:03:02.796 the fact and you look back and you get, oh, 0:03:02.836 --> 0:03:06.476 that's what it was. You know. My parents had brought 0:03:06.556 --> 0:03:09.556 up by parents who had survived the worst kind of 0:03:09.596 --> 0:03:13.076 war in history, where everybody was grieving someone they loved, 0:03:13.276 --> 0:03:18.156 a father, a son, a brother, a husband, and they 0:03:18.236 --> 0:03:25.116 had no choices, but to get on and multiply, and 0:03:25.556 --> 0:03:28.036 no one was able to kind of take on anyone 0:03:28.076 --> 0:03:31.116 else's grief. And then they had to do the same 0:03:31.396 --> 0:03:34.116 after the Second World War. But both my parents had 0:03:34.276 --> 0:03:38.996 very significant and traumatic bereavement. So my mum, by the 0:03:39.036 --> 0:03:43.316 time she was twenty five, her father, her mother, her sister, 0:03:43.396 --> 0:03:46.196 and her brother had all died, so she was an orphan. 0:03:47.516 --> 0:03:51.036 And my father, his father, and his brother had also 0:03:51.116 --> 0:03:53.276 died by the time he was a young man, so 0:03:54.436 --> 0:04:00.636 they had experienced really devastating death and they literally never 0:04:00.716 --> 0:04:05.796 talked about it. It was like everything that was painful 0:04:05.836 --> 0:04:10.956 and difficult wasn't talked about and was voiced, and everything 0:04:10.956 --> 0:04:15.116 that really didn't matter and was inconsequential was what we 0:04:15.196 --> 0:04:18.036 talked about. And I as a child, I was one 0:04:18.036 --> 0:04:20.356 of five children, five of us born in four years 0:04:20.396 --> 0:04:23.756 because I'm a twin and I have twin sisters, and 0:04:23.836 --> 0:04:26.556 so I was quite quiet and an observe and I 0:04:26.596 --> 0:04:30.316 was always trying to work out what was going on, 0:04:31.356 --> 0:04:34.276 and I could never really quite make sense of what 0:04:34.396 --> 0:04:39.556 was going on. And so I think unconsciously that led me, 0:04:40.596 --> 0:04:42.516 you know, and I'm still quite young in my late 0:04:42.556 --> 0:04:46.356 twenties to go into the area of bereavement. But it 0:04:46.396 --> 0:04:50.476 wasn't because I knew it was because of my childhood. 0:04:50.796 --> 0:04:53.436 It was just because what I was drawn to and 0:04:53.516 --> 0:04:57.996 somehow fascinated by. But as I've had like thirty years 0:04:57.996 --> 0:05:02.196 of therapy, Sinse, I kind of that doesn't take much 0:05:02.236 --> 0:05:06.196 to put the pieces of the chigsaw together. You mentioned 0:05:06.196 --> 0:05:09.476 that growing up, no one spoke about it, No one 0:05:09.516 --> 0:05:13.636 spoke about any any of the deaths. And why do 0:05:13.676 --> 0:05:15.996 you think we don't like talking about our feelings. I mean, 0:05:16.036 --> 0:05:19.196 it just it feels so tragic and unfortunate that we 0:05:19.236 --> 0:05:22.316 resist doing the very thing that can help us in 0:05:22.356 --> 0:05:25.676 the face of a death. I think that's a really 0:05:25.676 --> 0:05:29.476 good question. The sort of paradox of by allowing us 0:05:29.516 --> 0:05:33.196 to feel the aspects of ourselves that we most kind 0:05:33.196 --> 0:05:35.756 of fear, we do in the end heal. And I 0:05:37.276 --> 0:05:40.556 think a lot of it is probably to do with 0:05:41.436 --> 0:05:46.476 control and shame that somehow, maybe you'd know the reasons 0:05:46.516 --> 0:05:52.196 to do with evolutionary drives that in order to kind 0:05:52.236 --> 0:05:55.956 of be out in the world and you know, thrive, 0:05:56.436 --> 0:06:01.596 we have to show that we're strong and that we 0:06:02.516 --> 0:06:07.916 can fend for ourselves and that we're not vulnerable. But also, 0:06:08.116 --> 0:06:12.356 I mean, I think from the control perspective, it's that 0:06:12.556 --> 0:06:16.956 what we feel is invisible. You know, most of grief 0:06:17.276 --> 0:06:21.756 and emotions. You know, you can read some things on 0:06:21.756 --> 0:06:26.596 someone's face, but they're all underground. So it's messy, it's chaotic, 0:06:27.676 --> 0:06:31.436 and I think a lot of people when they talk 0:06:31.476 --> 0:06:33.396 to me about grieving, they want to sort of Mari 0:06:33.636 --> 0:06:39.636 condo their feelings into kind of tidy sock draws, color 0:06:39.756 --> 0:06:43.836 coordinated because you feel so powerless when you're grieving, that 0:06:43.916 --> 0:06:47.596 this thing has happened to you and blown you off 0:06:47.676 --> 0:06:51.716 your center. I think if you can kind of control 0:06:51.796 --> 0:06:54.516 your feelings, then you feel like I can okay, I 0:06:54.556 --> 0:06:58.396 can survive this. But when feelings hit you completely out 0:06:58.436 --> 0:07:02.476 of the blue, then you feel in some way threatened, 0:07:03.356 --> 0:07:08.916 so you automatically put on shields of defense of business. 0:07:08.956 --> 0:07:13.996 I think is the most common, actually getting super busy, scrolling, running, 0:07:14.916 --> 0:07:18.636 because then you feel like I'm in control, I've got this. 0:07:19.156 --> 0:07:21.756 Is it correct for me to say then, that as 0:07:21.796 --> 0:07:24.956 we're going about our normal lives, we experience the illusion 0:07:24.996 --> 0:07:28.436 anyway that we are managing and controlling our feelings. And 0:07:28.476 --> 0:07:31.676 then when something like a profound loss happens, a death 0:07:31.676 --> 0:07:35.556 of someone who is so important to us. That illusion 0:07:35.556 --> 0:07:40.356 evaporates because suddenly we are confronted with the enormity of 0:07:40.356 --> 0:07:43.876 the feelings, and as you mentioned, they're messy and complicated 0:07:44.036 --> 0:07:49.316 and confusing and overwhelming, and I guess we're taken by storm, 0:07:49.436 --> 0:07:51.716 and that might be why we don't want to engage. 0:07:51.716 --> 0:07:53.636 We don't want to take the lid off, because if 0:07:53.636 --> 0:07:56.036 we see what's underneath there, it's just it all feels 0:07:56.036 --> 0:08:00.476 too intimidating and overwhelming. Is that right? I think that's 0:08:00.596 --> 0:08:04.716 absolutely right. And there's this sort of blissful ignorance that 0:08:04.796 --> 0:08:08.636 when something terrible hasn't happened to us, that we have 0:08:08.756 --> 0:08:14.276 control the good things happen to good people. That life 0:08:14.276 --> 0:08:17.316 has a kind of order that your parents die first 0:08:17.396 --> 0:08:20.036 and you know you'll go next, and then your children, 0:08:20.796 --> 0:08:25.796 and then having a devastating experience throws that order completely 0:08:25.836 --> 0:08:30.076 off kilter. And also you have the feelings that you 0:08:30.196 --> 0:08:32.956 do not want to have. You become a version of 0:08:33.036 --> 0:08:36.436 yourself that you don't want to meet, where you feel 0:08:36.596 --> 0:08:39.716 furious for seeing someone talk to their father because your 0:08:39.716 --> 0:08:44.236 father's died, or they can't bear to see other people 0:08:44.356 --> 0:08:46.996 or people laughing, which then you feel like you're this 0:08:47.156 --> 0:08:52.156 joyless kind of ogre and you want to be there, 0:08:52.196 --> 0:08:57.276 the old you, that light was in there laughing with them. 0:08:57.316 --> 0:09:01.156 And that's what you're confronted with is lots of aspects 0:09:01.196 --> 0:09:07.676 of yourself which, when you're not suffering, kind of go quiet. Yeah, 0:09:07.876 --> 0:09:11.116 are most natural instinct as humans is to avoid suffering, 0:09:11.556 --> 0:09:14.636 But you do say that contrary to all of our instincts, 0:09:15.236 --> 0:09:18.356 we have to allow ourselves to feel the pain in 0:09:18.436 --> 0:09:21.636 order to make progress. Right, your mantra is pain is 0:09:21.676 --> 0:09:25.596 the agent of change, and to start, I'd love to 0:09:25.636 --> 0:09:32.276 know what's led you to that conclusion. Emotions are transmitters 0:09:32.276 --> 0:09:37.596 of information, so that they are informing us that something 0:09:37.876 --> 0:09:41.716 is up, and that our emotions and our cognitions are 0:09:41.756 --> 0:09:45.516 reciprocal feeds, so that when we have an experience of 0:09:45.516 --> 0:09:49.476 a feeling, it connects with our thinking and we're saying 0:09:49.476 --> 0:09:54.196 to ourselves, I feel frightened, I feel scared, I feel distressed. 0:09:54.916 --> 0:09:57.796 And then in the process of that thinking, you then think, 0:09:58.476 --> 0:10:01.636 what's happened? Why am I distressed? And you begin to 0:10:01.676 --> 0:10:07.676 develop a narrative that is telling you the reason your distress. 0:10:07.756 --> 0:10:10.956 And as you do that, and as you express the 0:10:11.076 --> 0:10:16.556 feeling and say the words. Incrementally you adjust a little 0:10:16.556 --> 0:10:19.996 bit more to this new reality that you didn't want 0:10:20.316 --> 0:10:24.396 and you didn't choose, because your first response, or most 0:10:24.436 --> 0:10:28.876 people's first response to grief is shock and numbness, and 0:10:29.236 --> 0:10:34.596 that it's surreal and we can only feel the pain 0:10:34.636 --> 0:10:38.796 of it in very tiny increments. If we felt it 0:10:38.956 --> 0:10:42.476 all at once in that moment, I think it would 0:10:42.556 --> 0:10:47.076 kind of blow our kind of brain circuits. And so 0:10:48.316 --> 0:10:54.476 the pain is slowly forcing you to face this new reality, 0:10:54.556 --> 0:10:59.116 and as you face it, you adapt, and as you adapt, 0:11:00.116 --> 0:11:04.516 it gives space to kind of think about, well, who 0:11:04.556 --> 0:11:06.836 am I now, and how am I going to live now? 0:11:06.996 --> 0:11:10.076 What does this mean now? And what do I need? 0:11:10.236 --> 0:11:12.796 And so then you can get your needs met. If 0:11:12.836 --> 0:11:16.756 you shot all that like my parents did, you function, 0:11:17.796 --> 0:11:22.756 but your capacity to feel gets foreshortened so that you 0:11:22.796 --> 0:11:24.876 wouldn't know what you were feeling, so you couldn't get 0:11:24.916 --> 0:11:27.916 your needs met. So you may feel distressed, but then 0:11:27.916 --> 0:11:33.396 you would use behaviors or other kind of mechanisms to 0:11:33.476 --> 0:11:38.036 self medicate. Yeah. No, I think it's so helpful to 0:11:39.356 --> 0:11:42.796 think about it in terms of processing, because when we 0:11:42.836 --> 0:11:45.076 think about it, it's just at least for me on 0:11:45.116 --> 0:11:47.596 a personal level, Like Julia's prescription to me is to 0:11:47.636 --> 0:11:50.956 marinate in the pain. I'm like, Okay, basically, you are 0:11:50.996 --> 0:11:53.196 prescribing hell on earth to me. I don't want to 0:11:53.236 --> 0:11:56.076 do that, right but for whatever reason, and I don't 0:11:56.116 --> 0:11:57.676 know if I'm the only one who finds comfort in 0:11:57.716 --> 0:12:01.476 this When I see it as a dynamic process where 0:12:01.636 --> 0:12:05.316 my mind is engaged and I am in communication with 0:12:05.356 --> 0:12:09.556 my feelings, that feels more manageable for me. So I'm 0:12:09.596 --> 0:12:14.276 feeling terror, I'm feeling panic, I'm feeling distress, But there's 0:12:14.276 --> 0:12:17.796 a conversation happening where I'm picking apart some of these 0:12:17.796 --> 0:12:20.756 emotions and trying to unpack them, and then in the process, 0:12:20.836 --> 0:12:24.156 maybe they lose some of their power over me, you know. 0:12:25.116 --> 0:12:27.556 I mean, that is right. But the piece that you 0:12:27.676 --> 0:12:33.396 haven't added, which I hope I say with equal force, 0:12:34.356 --> 0:12:37.756 is that it's the love and connection to others that 0:12:38.036 --> 0:12:42.756 enables us to survive when we feel the pain. I 0:12:42.836 --> 0:12:46.796 really profoundly believe we can't do this alone, and that 0:12:47.076 --> 0:12:49.836 when love dies, it's the love of others we need most. 0:12:50.796 --> 0:12:56.276 So that you need find ways of both supporting yourself 0:12:56.476 --> 0:12:59.756 personally and how you know, one of the kind of 0:12:59.876 --> 0:13:03.836 cruel paradoxes of grief is that often people turn against 0:13:03.876 --> 0:13:06.996 themselves and have you know what I call a shitty 0:13:06.996 --> 0:13:10.196 committee where they're attacking themselves. I'm ant, I'm a fool, 0:13:10.916 --> 0:13:14.436 all that guilt of if only, what if? Why didn't 0:13:14.476 --> 0:13:20.116 I and often don't seek support because there's this sense 0:13:20.116 --> 0:13:24.116 of shame that I can't ask for help. But you 0:13:24.276 --> 0:13:27.756 need both to be compassionate to yourself and get the 0:13:27.796 --> 0:13:33.676 support of other people so that that processing isn't chilly 0:13:33.756 --> 0:13:38.436 and isolating and alone, but is connected and that you 0:13:38.476 --> 0:13:41.196 can feel the warmth and the heart or another person 0:13:41.276 --> 0:13:46.996 with you. But the person who's listening who says, Okay, Julie, 0:13:47.076 --> 0:13:49.396 I totally understand that I need love to heal, but 0:13:50.276 --> 0:13:54.076 I currently don't have those resources in my life. Where 0:13:54.156 --> 0:13:56.196 can they begin? I mean, is there are there ways 0:13:56.236 --> 0:13:59.996 to find that compassion in love? I mean, we do 0:14:00.036 --> 0:14:02.396 live in a digital world where maybe it's possible to 0:14:02.476 --> 0:14:04.356 forage connections that you might not have been able to. 0:14:04.436 --> 0:14:06.196 But I just I want to give hope to the 0:14:06.236 --> 0:14:08.516 person who says, okay, you know, the privileged among us 0:14:08.596 --> 0:14:11.516 might have lots of love in our support networks, but 0:14:11.916 --> 0:14:15.636 I don't, so I think the first place to turn 0:14:15.756 --> 0:14:19.276 is to yourself, is to be self compassionate. And then 0:14:19.956 --> 0:14:23.316 you know, there really are groups, a lot of support 0:14:23.356 --> 0:14:26.876 groups for people that are grieving, and it's often the 0:14:26.916 --> 0:14:30.276 groups around the relationship with the person that died, so 0:14:30.436 --> 0:14:33.516 you know, partners that have died, or parents that have died, 0:14:33.876 --> 0:14:36.036 or children that have died, so that you can find, 0:14:37.196 --> 0:14:38.956 you know, this club that nobody wants to be a 0:14:38.996 --> 0:14:42.276 member of, but you can join. And I think if 0:14:42.316 --> 0:14:44.196 you don't want to do it through grief, you can 0:14:44.276 --> 0:14:52.436 do it through volunteering or pastimes, you know, joining organizations, 0:14:52.516 --> 0:14:55.476 gardening clubs. Are you interested in art? Are you interested 0:14:55.516 --> 0:14:58.516 in music? Are you interested in nature? Do you like cycling? 0:14:59.076 --> 0:15:02.596 And so I think for someone who's grieving, what's difficult 0:15:02.796 --> 0:15:05.956 is taking themselves that one step out of their comfort 0:15:06.076 --> 0:15:10.276 zone to kind of say I need more help than 0:15:10.316 --> 0:15:13.556 i'm getting myself, because you can get into this incredibly 0:15:13.636 --> 0:15:17.756 negative cycle that nobody cares, nobody loves me, and nothing's 0:15:17.796 --> 0:15:21.516 going to make any difference. And the more you say 0:15:21.556 --> 0:15:24.796 that to yourself, the harder it is to take that 0:15:24.916 --> 0:15:28.516 first step and find a network that would meet you. 0:15:29.476 --> 0:15:34.996 But anyone listening, I would say please just small for 0:15:35.116 --> 0:15:37.996 what you know, do small things. Don't set yourself too 0:15:38.036 --> 0:15:42.276 big a task. Send the first email, do the first 0:15:42.276 --> 0:15:45.716 Google search, and then every day do a little step. 0:15:45.796 --> 0:15:47.596 You don't have to be in the group, like find 0:15:47.596 --> 0:15:49.676 out think about what you're interested in that can be 0:15:49.716 --> 0:15:52.836 your task to day, do a Google about what there 0:15:52.916 --> 0:15:55.916 is locally that can be a task another day. You know, 0:15:55.996 --> 0:16:00.276 so that you do incremental steps towards finally support for yourself. 0:16:01.436 --> 0:16:04.836 I love what you say about about loneliness because the 0:16:05.036 --> 0:16:08.596 vague Morthy, who is a certain general, he was going 0:16:08.636 --> 0:16:12.116 on a medical expedition initially to different parts of the country, 0:16:12.156 --> 0:16:15.996 trying to understand these different health conditions like addiction and 0:16:17.476 --> 0:16:22.796 obesity exactly and ultimately found that loneliness was at its root. 0:16:23.316 --> 0:16:26.916 So I love the recommendations that you make around how 0:16:26.956 --> 0:16:29.076 any of us can try try and seek that out. 0:16:30.436 --> 0:16:32.996 I know the way that we grieve can be very 0:16:33.036 --> 0:16:38.596 idiosyncratic based on so many factors, like our psychological wiring, 0:16:38.676 --> 0:16:41.676 our circumstances, what have you. But I know you have 0:16:41.796 --> 0:16:44.996 identified at least some common patterns across the people that 0:16:45.036 --> 0:16:48.316 you've worked with, especially in the aftermath of loss. Like 0:16:48.516 --> 0:16:51.156 I was just I was talking with a friend of mine, Quinn, 0:16:51.156 --> 0:16:55.756 who lost her nineteen year old sister, and I remember 0:16:55.796 --> 0:17:00.316 at the memorial service she was saying, a part of 0:17:00.356 --> 0:17:03.636 me feels she's still coming home. You know, my brain, 0:17:04.756 --> 0:17:09.316 my rational brain, fully registers that she's gone. But how 0:17:09.316 --> 0:17:12.076 could it be? How could it be that that Dixie, 0:17:12.156 --> 0:17:15.796 who had the most promising future one can imagine, is gone, 0:17:15.796 --> 0:17:19.876 Like her brain wasn't able to make that connection. And 0:17:19.916 --> 0:17:23.876 so yeah, I would just love for you to unpack 0:17:23.996 --> 0:17:26.556 these two distinct frames of mind. And I like that 0:17:26.596 --> 0:17:29.356 you talk about in terms of movement between the two, 0:17:30.796 --> 0:17:37.396 the adjustment to like your friend's sister dying suddenly and 0:17:37.756 --> 0:17:40.876 at nineteen, which is you know, a death out of time, 0:17:42.036 --> 0:17:46.676 that kind of out of the clear blue sky shock. 0:17:47.836 --> 0:17:50.796 The process of accommodation learning to live with it is 0:17:50.796 --> 0:17:53.956 a movement between facing the reality and feeling the pain 0:17:54.076 --> 0:17:57.276 where her head knew it but her heart didn't feel it. 0:17:58.396 --> 0:18:03.196 The pain kind of allows some connection between the two 0:18:03.236 --> 0:18:04.996 where the head and the heart of feeling it at 0:18:05.036 --> 0:18:07.636 the same time, like, ah, you know, I'm buying a 0:18:09.196 --> 0:18:12.156 set of yogurts for four and we're used to be 0:18:12.196 --> 0:18:15.716 four people an hour, only three and in that moment 0:18:16.236 --> 0:18:20.516 you know it, and then in that moment, as you know, 0:18:20.796 --> 0:18:23.796 you kind of adjust an accommodate, and then it frees 0:18:23.836 --> 0:18:28.436 you to have a little breather and be restorative, like 0:18:28.556 --> 0:18:33.156 go home, make some supper, do something that soothes you 0:18:33.236 --> 0:18:37.756 that is intentionally calming. And it's the movement between the two, 0:18:37.956 --> 0:18:41.756 allowing yourself to have times to remember to be sad, 0:18:41.836 --> 0:18:45.076 to talk to a friend, to grieve, and time to 0:18:45.116 --> 0:18:48.396 give yourself a break from grief, to give yourself permission 0:18:49.116 --> 0:18:53.396 to have moments of joy or moments of calm or 0:18:54.236 --> 0:18:57.876 kind of feel within yourself a sort of sense of 0:18:57.956 --> 0:19:02.916 peace that it isn't so raw. I think we can 0:19:02.996 --> 0:19:05.876 choose times that we focus on our lost through having 0:19:06.996 --> 0:19:11.076 a memory box or different ways that we can decide 0:19:11.116 --> 0:19:12.956 to kind of focus on them, because I think one 0:19:12.996 --> 0:19:17.196 of the aspects that is also not kind of recognized 0:19:18.276 --> 0:19:22.156 is there's a dual process of facing the reality that 0:19:22.196 --> 0:19:27.196 this person is no longer physically present, but what we 0:19:27.356 --> 0:19:30.196 feel for them, our love for them, never dies. The 0:19:30.356 --> 0:19:35.596 love continues, and so it isn't about forgetting and moving on, 0:19:36.076 --> 0:19:44.036 It's about remembering and connecting when we're back from the 0:19:44.116 --> 0:19:46.676 break Julia will give us advice on how to process 0:19:46.716 --> 0:19:58.916 our grief. Julia Samuel has been a grief therapist for 0:19:58.956 --> 0:20:01.556 more than thirty years, much of that time working with 0:20:01.596 --> 0:20:06.356 the UK's National Health Service or NHS. Through her experiences, 0:20:06.436 --> 0:20:09.116 Julia has identified some things we can do to help 0:20:09.356 --> 0:20:12.836 through the grieving process. She calls them pillars of strength, 0:20:13.236 --> 0:20:14.836 and we did a deep dive on a few of 0:20:14.876 --> 0:20:19.156 them in our conversation. So I came up with the 0:20:19.196 --> 0:20:23.276 pillars not as a kind of ten rules, but from 0:20:23.356 --> 0:20:27.076 a perspective of when we're in the throes of this 0:20:27.276 --> 0:20:32.836 tumultuous experience, when we feel like we have this hole 0:20:33.156 --> 0:20:38.396 in the center of our being, we need attitudes, ways 0:20:38.436 --> 0:20:42.516 of being and behaviors that can hold us up when 0:20:42.556 --> 0:20:48.636 we feel kind of tipped and off kilter. And survival kit. 0:20:48.796 --> 0:20:53.396 It's your survival kit. Yeah, And I think the thing 0:20:54.476 --> 0:20:59.316 that helps people a lot is the relationship to the 0:20:59.316 --> 0:21:03.836 person that's died. So I've often people will once I 0:21:03.956 --> 0:21:07.716 talked to them about, you know, grieving and feeling the 0:21:07.756 --> 0:21:11.876 pain of their death, but also in continuing their relationship. 0:21:11.916 --> 0:21:18.356 People are amazingly creative in what they do. So one 0:21:18.396 --> 0:21:22.076 person her husband died and she got his pajamas and 0:21:22.196 --> 0:21:28.436 made them into a patchwork quilt that she put on 0:21:28.476 --> 0:21:32.276 their children's beds, so that they had all these little 0:21:32.356 --> 0:21:34.596 squares of their dad on their beds, so when they 0:21:34.596 --> 0:21:37.356 went to sleep when they really missed him, they had 0:21:37.396 --> 0:21:41.476 some of their dad. And someone else had a son 0:21:41.556 --> 0:21:45.876 that died in a terrible car crash, and they didn't 0:21:45.876 --> 0:21:50.036 want other people to see their mementos. But in their 0:21:50.076 --> 0:21:52.476 mains kind of sitting room where they lived all the time, 0:21:52.876 --> 0:21:57.396 they had a trunk and inside the trunk was his trainers, 0:21:58.036 --> 0:22:01.596 were some of his school books, the wristband that he 0:22:01.676 --> 0:22:04.796 had when he died, a lot of his things, and 0:22:04.876 --> 0:22:06.956 some of them sort of still felt to them like 0:22:06.996 --> 0:22:11.756 they smelt of him, and so that he was there 0:22:11.836 --> 0:22:14.516 what other people couldn't see. And when they wanted, they 0:22:14.516 --> 0:22:18.756 could open the trunk and she could put his t shirt, 0:22:18.796 --> 0:22:21.556 you know, into her nose and feel connected to him, 0:22:22.196 --> 0:22:26.796 and that would meet an expression of needing to love him, 0:22:26.876 --> 0:22:33.196 because it's that people miss the hugs, the telling them 0:22:33.236 --> 0:22:35.676 I love you, and they feel like they've failed, and 0:22:35.716 --> 0:22:41.076 so having something concrete that you can go to really helps. 0:22:42.356 --> 0:22:44.916 I think one of the other pillars that really helps 0:22:45.356 --> 0:22:49.156 is moving your body, you know, taking exercise, getting your 0:22:49.156 --> 0:22:53.116 heart rate up, because it reduces the cortisol. It brings 0:22:53.196 --> 0:22:57.836 your whole mind body connection down to kind of first 0:22:57.876 --> 0:23:02.996 gear where then you can get support, You can think 0:23:03.076 --> 0:23:06.276 more clearly, You can choose to do things that are 0:23:06.356 --> 0:23:10.516 kind of kind to you rather than of desperation and fear. 0:23:11.356 --> 0:23:13.116 So I mean, I say to people, one of the 0:23:13.156 --> 0:23:15.356 first things I say to any clients I said it 0:23:15.436 --> 0:23:20.636 this week is get outside. You know, even if it's 0:23:20.676 --> 0:23:22.916 going for a walk around the block, you know, on 0:23:22.956 --> 0:23:28.116 a pavement with tons of noise and cars ten minutes outside. 0:23:28.156 --> 0:23:32.076 You will always feel better if you can go into nature, 0:23:32.076 --> 0:23:34.836 if you can go into a park, that is even better. 0:23:35.516 --> 0:23:38.356 Because what you want is to choose things that help 0:23:38.516 --> 0:23:43.876 calibrate your over alert system, to help you bring your 0:23:43.876 --> 0:23:48.516 system down, because then you then you can connect with 0:23:48.516 --> 0:23:50.556 other people and connect with yourself in a way that 0:23:50.596 --> 0:23:53.836 you can't and you're kind of really stressed out, really 0:23:54.036 --> 0:23:56.236 kind of full of fear. One thing I read in 0:23:56.236 --> 0:23:59.876 your book about our relationship with ourselves that I just 0:23:59.916 --> 0:24:03.476 had never really thought about was the way in which 0:24:03.836 --> 0:24:06.916 the death of someone that we love can affect our 0:24:06.956 --> 0:24:12.196 self structure our self identity, the way it can affect 0:24:12.196 --> 0:24:15.916 our self esteem and our confidence because of our inability 0:24:16.036 --> 0:24:19.356 to in those moments feel like we can fully be ourselves. 0:24:19.996 --> 0:24:23.556 And I resonated with that so much. I mean, as 0:24:23.596 --> 0:24:25.836 you know, and many of my listeners know because I 0:24:25.836 --> 0:24:29.596 shared this story on the show. You know, my husband Jimmy, 0:24:29.596 --> 0:24:35.236 and I lost identical twin girls to a miscarriage via surrogacy, 0:24:36.076 --> 0:24:40.516 and I don't think at the time I appreciated the 0:24:40.596 --> 0:24:44.156 loss of identity, and I think learning about that from 0:24:44.196 --> 0:24:47.116 me was really helpful to me, which is again, it 0:24:47.156 --> 0:24:49.356 was this short lived period where I felt like I 0:24:49.436 --> 0:24:53.276 was a mom, or as you guys would say, a mom, 0:24:53.356 --> 0:24:56.436 and you know, from that first blue line on the 0:24:56.436 --> 0:25:00.396 pregnancy test, suddenly I feel like I'm a mother. And 0:25:00.516 --> 0:25:05.036 so when the loss happens, you're grieving certainly the loss 0:25:05.916 --> 0:25:08.556 of that pregnancy, but you're also grieving the loss of 0:25:08.556 --> 0:25:13.316 an identity that you were aspiring to have. And when 0:25:13.356 --> 0:25:16.956 you saw that blue line, you pictured yourself as a 0:25:17.036 --> 0:25:20.076 mom holding a baby who would be a parent for 0:25:20.116 --> 0:25:23.076 the rest of her life. So you kind of grieving 0:25:23.116 --> 0:25:29.516 the dream as a mom, and that's incredibly painful. Yes, 0:25:30.836 --> 0:25:33.596 Are there any other pillars of strength you'd like to share. 0:25:36.756 --> 0:25:40.556 I think the other ones that are really helpful are 0:25:41.876 --> 0:25:49.076 to do with limits, so that our capacity to manage 0:25:49.076 --> 0:25:52.716 ourselves to engage in the world of what we can do. 0:25:53.716 --> 0:26:00.476 Our boundaries change when we're grieving, and people often push 0:26:00.596 --> 0:26:03.436 us to come and do something or want us to 0:26:03.476 --> 0:26:09.036 be okay because they want us to kind of be okay, 0:26:09.316 --> 0:26:13.636 and so kind of recognizing how important your boundaries are 0:26:13.676 --> 0:26:17.236 when you're so out of control, and that having a 0:26:17.276 --> 0:26:20.316 good no means that when you say yes, it's a 0:26:20.436 --> 0:26:22.996 really good yes, and that can be very positive and 0:26:23.036 --> 0:26:27.156 confident building. So it's not saying no to the world, 0:26:27.196 --> 0:26:30.676 but really assessing of how much energy do I have? 0:26:31.436 --> 0:26:34.556 Will this be? Can I cope with this? Do I 0:26:34.636 --> 0:26:36.516 dare go out of my comfort zone? Maybe it's good 0:26:36.516 --> 0:26:38.996 a little bit, you know, all of those things and 0:26:39.156 --> 0:26:43.116 deciding rather than kind of pushing through, which I think 0:26:43.116 --> 0:26:46.356 people often want to do. I think one that I 0:26:47.196 --> 0:26:50.676 one of the pillars that I have relied on during 0:26:51.396 --> 0:26:55.036 what's been just incredibly hard period of time for the 0:26:55.196 --> 0:26:58.676 entire world has been I think you would catch this 0:26:58.756 --> 0:27:04.156 under your structure pillar. But having extremely small rituals in 0:27:04.196 --> 0:27:07.636 my day to day life that without fail I try 0:27:07.676 --> 0:27:10.436 and do and for me, I know you're a tea lover, Julius, 0:27:10.436 --> 0:27:12.196 so you're going to find residence in this one. But 0:27:12.836 --> 0:27:16.996 it is making myself a cup of Indian style tea. 0:27:17.116 --> 0:27:21.196 So I get out the fresh ginger cardamum boiled milk. 0:27:21.636 --> 0:27:23.956