1 00:00:14,916 --> 00:00:35,276 Speaker 1: Pushkin. When you're kind of in trauma, everything is like 2 00:00:35,356 --> 00:00:37,916 Speaker 1: your body is on far and you're drowning at the 3 00:00:37,956 --> 00:00:42,516 Speaker 1: same time, so that everything is hawa. But by having small, 4 00:00:43,276 --> 00:00:49,476 Speaker 1: bite sized, very manageable structures and rituals, they just bring 5 00:00:49,516 --> 00:00:52,236 Speaker 1: you down a little bit to that sense of safety, 6 00:00:52,316 --> 00:00:55,556 Speaker 1: and feeling safe in your body and your mind and 7 00:00:55,676 --> 00:01:00,156 Speaker 1: in your home gives you a kind of robustness to 8 00:01:00,236 --> 00:01:04,396 Speaker 1: deal with the onslaught of the feelings of your trauma 9 00:01:04,436 --> 00:01:08,436 Speaker 1: and the loss. Julia Samuel has worked for thirty years 10 00:01:08,436 --> 00:01:10,956 Speaker 1: as a grief counselor in the UK and as an 11 00:01:10,956 --> 00:01:14,076 Speaker 1: expert on trauma and loss. She's also the author of 12 00:01:14,156 --> 00:01:17,636 Speaker 1: two best selling books, Grief Works and This Too Shall Pass. 13 00:01:18,716 --> 00:01:21,596 Speaker 1: Julia has counseled thousands of people through their grief and 14 00:01:21,636 --> 00:01:24,636 Speaker 1: has identified strategies that can help all of us navigate 15 00:01:24,676 --> 00:01:27,756 Speaker 1: the loss of a loved one. You know, people say 16 00:01:27,836 --> 00:01:33,756 Speaker 1: time is a great healer and the pain of grief 17 00:01:34,196 --> 00:01:38,796 Speaker 1: does change over time, but if we aren't active in 18 00:01:38,876 --> 00:01:44,036 Speaker 1: the process of grieving, it doesn't change so much. It 19 00:01:44,076 --> 00:01:47,956 Speaker 1: just gets shut down, so that the things you do 20 00:01:47,996 --> 00:01:50,996 Speaker 1: to block your pain are in the end the things 21 00:01:50,996 --> 00:01:57,036 Speaker 1: that harm you over time. On today's episode, Lessons from 22 00:01:57,036 --> 00:02:02,356 Speaker 1: a Grief Therapist. I'm Maya Shunker, and this is a 23 00:02:02,396 --> 00:02:04,916 Speaker 1: slight change of plans, a show about who we are 24 00:02:05,036 --> 00:02:07,556 Speaker 1: and who we become in the face of a big change. 25 00:02:12,636 --> 00:02:16,396 Speaker 1: You know, Julia, you refer to death as the great 26 00:02:16,516 --> 00:02:21,756 Speaker 1: last taboo that we resist. We resist using the word death. 27 00:02:21,916 --> 00:02:26,716 Speaker 1: We prefer euphemisms like loss and passed away. And we 28 00:02:26,756 --> 00:02:29,596 Speaker 1: can be so scared of death that sometimes we engage 29 00:02:30,036 --> 00:02:33,276 Speaker 1: in magical thinking right where we believe that maybe if 30 00:02:33,276 --> 00:02:35,356 Speaker 1: we don't talk about it, it won't happen to us. 31 00:02:35,836 --> 00:02:41,596 Speaker 1: And so, given this very natural desire to resist talking 32 00:02:42,116 --> 00:02:45,636 Speaker 1: or thinking about death, I'm curious to know what led 33 00:02:45,676 --> 00:02:49,876 Speaker 1: you initially to run directly into the fire, directly into 34 00:02:49,916 --> 00:02:54,676 Speaker 1: that emotional fire, and become a grief therapist. I mean, 35 00:02:54,716 --> 00:02:57,516 Speaker 1: I don't think I recognize what I was doing. I 36 00:02:57,556 --> 00:03:00,316 Speaker 1: think like most of us probably don't realize until after 37 00:03:00,356 --> 00:03:02,796 Speaker 1: the fact and you look back and you get, oh, 38 00:03:02,836 --> 00:03:06,476 Speaker 1: that's what it was. You know. My parents had brought 39 00:03:06,556 --> 00:03:09,556 Speaker 1: up by parents who had survived the worst kind of 40 00:03:09,596 --> 00:03:13,076 Speaker 1: war in history, where everybody was grieving someone they loved, 41 00:03:13,276 --> 00:03:18,156 Speaker 1: a father, a son, a brother, a husband, and they 42 00:03:18,236 --> 00:03:25,116 Speaker 1: had no choices, but to get on and multiply, and 43 00:03:25,556 --> 00:03:28,036 Speaker 1: no one was able to kind of take on anyone 44 00:03:28,076 --> 00:03:31,116 Speaker 1: else's grief. And then they had to do the same 45 00:03:31,396 --> 00:03:34,116 Speaker 1: after the Second World War. But both my parents had 46 00:03:34,276 --> 00:03:38,996 Speaker 1: very significant and traumatic bereavement. So my mum, by the 47 00:03:39,036 --> 00:03:43,316 Speaker 1: time she was twenty five, her father, her mother, her sister, 48 00:03:43,396 --> 00:03:46,196 Speaker 1: and her brother had all died, so she was an orphan. 49 00:03:47,516 --> 00:03:51,036 Speaker 1: And my father, his father, and his brother had also 50 00:03:51,116 --> 00:03:53,276 Speaker 1: died by the time he was a young man, so 51 00:03:54,436 --> 00:04:00,636 Speaker 1: they had experienced really devastating death and they literally never 52 00:04:00,716 --> 00:04:05,796 Speaker 1: talked about it. It was like everything that was painful 53 00:04:05,836 --> 00:04:10,956 Speaker 1: and difficult wasn't talked about and was voiced, and everything 54 00:04:10,956 --> 00:04:15,116 Speaker 1: that really didn't matter and was inconsequential was what we 55 00:04:15,196 --> 00:04:18,036 Speaker 1: talked about. And I as a child, I was one 56 00:04:18,036 --> 00:04:20,356 Speaker 1: of five children, five of us born in four years 57 00:04:20,396 --> 00:04:23,756 Speaker 1: because I'm a twin and I have twin sisters, and 58 00:04:23,836 --> 00:04:26,556 Speaker 1: so I was quite quiet and an observe and I 59 00:04:26,596 --> 00:04:30,316 Speaker 1: was always trying to work out what was going on, 60 00:04:31,356 --> 00:04:34,276 Speaker 1: and I could never really quite make sense of what 61 00:04:34,396 --> 00:04:39,556 Speaker 1: was going on. And so I think unconsciously that led me, 62 00:04:40,596 --> 00:04:42,516 Speaker 1: you know, and I'm still quite young in my late 63 00:04:42,556 --> 00:04:46,356 Speaker 1: twenties to go into the area of bereavement. But it 64 00:04:46,396 --> 00:04:50,476 Speaker 1: wasn't because I knew it was because of my childhood. 65 00:04:50,796 --> 00:04:53,436 Speaker 1: It was just because what I was drawn to and 66 00:04:53,516 --> 00:04:57,996 Speaker 1: somehow fascinated by. But as I've had like thirty years 67 00:04:57,996 --> 00:05:02,196 Speaker 1: of therapy, Sinse, I kind of that doesn't take much 68 00:05:02,236 --> 00:05:06,196 Speaker 1: to put the pieces of the chigsaw together. You mentioned 69 00:05:06,196 --> 00:05:09,476 Speaker 1: that growing up, no one spoke about it, No one 70 00:05:09,516 --> 00:05:13,636 Speaker 1: spoke about any any of the deaths. And why do 71 00:05:13,676 --> 00:05:15,996 Speaker 1: you think we don't like talking about our feelings. I mean, 72 00:05:16,036 --> 00:05:19,196 Speaker 1: it just it feels so tragic and unfortunate that we 73 00:05:19,236 --> 00:05:22,316 Speaker 1: resist doing the very thing that can help us in 74 00:05:22,356 --> 00:05:25,676 Speaker 1: the face of a death. I think that's a really 75 00:05:25,676 --> 00:05:29,476 Speaker 1: good question. The sort of paradox of by allowing us 76 00:05:29,516 --> 00:05:33,196 Speaker 1: to feel the aspects of ourselves that we most kind 77 00:05:33,196 --> 00:05:35,756 Speaker 1: of fear, we do in the end heal. And I 78 00:05:37,276 --> 00:05:40,556 Speaker 1: think a lot of it is probably to do with 79 00:05:41,436 --> 00:05:46,476 Speaker 1: control and shame that somehow, maybe you'd know the reasons 80 00:05:46,516 --> 00:05:52,196 Speaker 1: to do with evolutionary drives that in order to kind 81 00:05:52,236 --> 00:05:55,956 Speaker 1: of be out in the world and you know, thrive, 82 00:05:56,436 --> 00:06:01,596 Speaker 1: we have to show that we're strong and that we 83 00:06:02,516 --> 00:06:07,916 Speaker 1: can fend for ourselves and that we're not vulnerable. But also, 84 00:06:08,116 --> 00:06:12,356 Speaker 1: I mean, I think from the control perspective, it's that 85 00:06:12,556 --> 00:06:16,956 Speaker 1: what we feel is invisible. You know, most of grief 86 00:06:17,276 --> 00:06:21,756 Speaker 1: and emotions. You know, you can read some things on 87 00:06:21,756 --> 00:06:26,596 Speaker 1: someone's face, but they're all underground. So it's messy, it's chaotic, 88 00:06:27,676 --> 00:06:31,436 Speaker 1: and I think a lot of people when they talk 89 00:06:31,476 --> 00:06:33,396 Speaker 1: to me about grieving, they want to sort of Mari 90 00:06:33,636 --> 00:06:39,636 Speaker 1: condo their feelings into kind of tidy sock draws, color 91 00:06:39,756 --> 00:06:43,836 Speaker 1: coordinated because you feel so powerless when you're grieving, that 92 00:06:43,916 --> 00:06:47,596 Speaker 1: this thing has happened to you and blown you off 93 00:06:47,676 --> 00:06:51,716 Speaker 1: your center. I think if you can kind of control 94 00:06:51,796 --> 00:06:54,516 Speaker 1: your feelings, then you feel like I can okay, I 95 00:06:54,556 --> 00:06:58,396 Speaker 1: can survive this. But when feelings hit you completely out 96 00:06:58,436 --> 00:07:02,476 Speaker 1: of the blue, then you feel in some way threatened, 97 00:07:03,356 --> 00:07:08,916 Speaker 1: so you automatically put on shields of defense of business. 98 00:07:08,956 --> 00:07:13,996 Speaker 1: I think is the most common, actually getting super busy, scrolling, running, 99 00:07:14,916 --> 00:07:18,636 Speaker 1: because then you feel like I'm in control, I've got this. 100 00:07:19,156 --> 00:07:21,756 Speaker 1: Is it correct for me to say then, that as 101 00:07:21,796 --> 00:07:24,956 Speaker 1: we're going about our normal lives, we experience the illusion 102 00:07:24,996 --> 00:07:28,436 Speaker 1: anyway that we are managing and controlling our feelings. And 103 00:07:28,476 --> 00:07:31,676 Speaker 1: then when something like a profound loss happens, a death 104 00:07:31,676 --> 00:07:35,556 Speaker 1: of someone who is so important to us. That illusion 105 00:07:35,556 --> 00:07:40,356 Speaker 1: evaporates because suddenly we are confronted with the enormity of 106 00:07:40,356 --> 00:07:43,876 Speaker 1: the feelings, and as you mentioned, they're messy and complicated 107 00:07:44,036 --> 00:07:49,316 Speaker 1: and confusing and overwhelming, and I guess we're taken by storm, 108 00:07:49,436 --> 00:07:51,716 Speaker 1: and that might be why we don't want to engage. 109 00:07:51,716 --> 00:07:53,636 Speaker 1: We don't want to take the lid off, because if 110 00:07:53,636 --> 00:07:56,036 Speaker 1: we see what's underneath there, it's just it all feels 111 00:07:56,036 --> 00:08:00,476 Speaker 1: too intimidating and overwhelming. Is that right? I think that's 112 00:08:00,596 --> 00:08:04,716 Speaker 1: absolutely right. And there's this sort of blissful ignorance that 113 00:08:04,796 --> 00:08:08,636 Speaker 1: when something terrible hasn't happened to us, that we have 114 00:08:08,756 --> 00:08:14,276 Speaker 1: control the good things happen to good people. That life 115 00:08:14,276 --> 00:08:17,316 Speaker 1: has a kind of order that your parents die first 116 00:08:17,396 --> 00:08:20,036 Speaker 1: and you know you'll go next, and then your children, 117 00:08:20,796 --> 00:08:25,796 Speaker 1: and then having a devastating experience throws that order completely 118 00:08:25,836 --> 00:08:30,076 Speaker 1: off kilter. And also you have the feelings that you 119 00:08:30,196 --> 00:08:32,956 Speaker 1: do not want to have. You become a version of 120 00:08:33,036 --> 00:08:36,436 Speaker 1: yourself that you don't want to meet, where you feel 121 00:08:36,596 --> 00:08:39,716 Speaker 1: furious for seeing someone talk to their father because your 122 00:08:39,716 --> 00:08:44,236 Speaker 1: father's died, or they can't bear to see other people 123 00:08:44,356 --> 00:08:46,996 Speaker 1: or people laughing, which then you feel like you're this 124 00:08:47,156 --> 00:08:52,156 Speaker 1: joyless kind of ogre and you want to be there, 125 00:08:52,196 --> 00:08:57,276 Speaker 1: the old you, that light was in there laughing with them. 126 00:08:57,316 --> 00:09:01,156 Speaker 1: And that's what you're confronted with is lots of aspects 127 00:09:01,196 --> 00:09:07,676 Speaker 1: of yourself which, when you're not suffering, kind of go quiet. Yeah, 128 00:09:07,876 --> 00:09:11,116 Speaker 1: are most natural instinct as humans is to avoid suffering, 129 00:09:11,556 --> 00:09:14,636 Speaker 1: But you do say that contrary to all of our instincts, 130 00:09:15,236 --> 00:09:18,356 Speaker 1: we have to allow ourselves to feel the pain in 131 00:09:18,436 --> 00:09:21,636 Speaker 1: order to make progress. Right, your mantra is pain is 132 00:09:21,676 --> 00:09:25,596 Speaker 1: the agent of change, and to start, I'd love to 133 00:09:25,636 --> 00:09:32,276 Speaker 1: know what's led you to that conclusion. Emotions are transmitters 134 00:09:32,276 --> 00:09:37,596 Speaker 1: of information, so that they are informing us that something 135 00:09:37,876 --> 00:09:41,716 Speaker 1: is up, and that our emotions and our cognitions are 136 00:09:41,756 --> 00:09:45,516 Speaker 1: reciprocal feeds, so that when we have an experience of 137 00:09:45,516 --> 00:09:49,476 Speaker 1: a feeling, it connects with our thinking and we're saying 138 00:09:49,476 --> 00:09:54,196 Speaker 1: to ourselves, I feel frightened, I feel scared, I feel distressed. 139 00:09:54,916 --> 00:09:57,796 Speaker 1: And then in the process of that thinking, you then think, 140 00:09:58,476 --> 00:10:01,636 Speaker 1: what's happened? Why am I distressed? And you begin to 141 00:10:01,676 --> 00:10:07,676 Speaker 1: develop a narrative that is telling you the reason your distress. 142 00:10:07,756 --> 00:10:10,956 Speaker 1: And as you do that, and as you express the 143 00:10:11,076 --> 00:10:16,556 Speaker 1: feeling and say the words. Incrementally you adjust a little 144 00:10:16,556 --> 00:10:19,996 Speaker 1: bit more to this new reality that you didn't want 145 00:10:20,316 --> 00:10:24,396 Speaker 1: and you didn't choose, because your first response, or most 146 00:10:24,436 --> 00:10:28,876 Speaker 1: people's first response to grief is shock and numbness, and 147 00:10:29,236 --> 00:10:34,596 Speaker 1: that it's surreal and we can only feel the pain 148 00:10:34,636 --> 00:10:38,796 Speaker 1: of it in very tiny increments. If we felt it 149 00:10:38,956 --> 00:10:42,476 Speaker 1: all at once in that moment, I think it would 150 00:10:42,556 --> 00:10:47,076 Speaker 1: kind of blow our kind of brain circuits. And so 151 00:10:48,316 --> 00:10:54,476 Speaker 1: the pain is slowly forcing you to face this new reality, 152 00:10:54,556 --> 00:10:59,116 Speaker 1: and as you face it, you adapt, and as you adapt, 153 00:11:00,116 --> 00:11:04,516 Speaker 1: it gives space to kind of think about, well, who 154 00:11:04,556 --> 00:11:06,836 Speaker 1: am I now, and how am I going to live now? 155 00:11:06,996 --> 00:11:10,076 Speaker 1: What does this mean now? And what do I need? 156 00:11:10,236 --> 00:11:12,796 Speaker 1: And so then you can get your needs met. If 157 00:11:12,836 --> 00:11:16,756 Speaker 1: you shot all that like my parents did, you function, 158 00:11:17,796 --> 00:11:22,756 Speaker 1: but your capacity to feel gets foreshortened so that you 159 00:11:22,796 --> 00:11:24,876 Speaker 1: wouldn't know what you were feeling, so you couldn't get 160 00:11:24,916 --> 00:11:27,916 Speaker 1: your needs met. So you may feel distressed, but then 161 00:11:27,916 --> 00:11:33,396 Speaker 1: you would use behaviors or other kind of mechanisms to 162 00:11:33,476 --> 00:11:38,036 Speaker 1: self medicate. Yeah. No, I think it's so helpful to 163 00:11:39,356 --> 00:11:42,796 Speaker 1: think about it in terms of processing, because when we 164 00:11:42,836 --> 00:11:45,076 Speaker 1: think about it, it's just at least for me on 165 00:11:45,116 --> 00:11:47,596 Speaker 1: a personal level, Like Julia's prescription to me is to 166 00:11:47,636 --> 00:11:50,956 Speaker 1: marinate in the pain. I'm like, Okay, basically, you are 167 00:11:50,996 --> 00:11:53,196 Speaker 1: prescribing hell on earth to me. I don't want to 168 00:11:53,236 --> 00:11:56,076 Speaker 1: do that, right but for whatever reason, and I don't 169 00:11:56,116 --> 00:11:57,676 Speaker 1: know if I'm the only one who finds comfort in 170 00:11:57,716 --> 00:12:01,476 Speaker 1: this When I see it as a dynamic process where 171 00:12:01,636 --> 00:12:05,316 Speaker 1: my mind is engaged and I am in communication with 172 00:12:05,356 --> 00:12:09,556 Speaker 1: my feelings, that feels more manageable for me. So I'm 173 00:12:09,596 --> 00:12:14,276 Speaker 1: feeling terror, I'm feeling panic, I'm feeling distress, But there's 174 00:12:14,276 --> 00:12:17,796 Speaker 1: a conversation happening where I'm picking apart some of these 175 00:12:17,796 --> 00:12:20,756 Speaker 1: emotions and trying to unpack them, and then in the process, 176 00:12:20,836 --> 00:12:24,156 Speaker 1: maybe they lose some of their power over me, you know. 177 00:12:25,116 --> 00:12:27,556 Speaker 1: I mean, that is right. But the piece that you 178 00:12:27,676 --> 00:12:33,396 Speaker 1: haven't added, which I hope I say with equal force, 179 00:12:34,356 --> 00:12:37,756 Speaker 1: is that it's the love and connection to others that 180 00:12:38,036 --> 00:12:42,756 Speaker 1: enables us to survive when we feel the pain. I 181 00:12:42,836 --> 00:12:46,796 Speaker 1: really profoundly believe we can't do this alone, and that 182 00:12:47,076 --> 00:12:49,836 Speaker 1: when love dies, it's the love of others we need most. 183 00:12:50,796 --> 00:12:56,276 Speaker 1: So that you need find ways of both supporting yourself 184 00:12:56,476 --> 00:12:59,756 Speaker 1: personally and how you know, one of the kind of 185 00:12:59,876 --> 00:13:03,836 Speaker 1: cruel paradoxes of grief is that often people turn against 186 00:13:03,876 --> 00:13:06,996 Speaker 1: themselves and have you know what I call a shitty 187 00:13:06,996 --> 00:13:10,196 Speaker 1: committee where they're attacking themselves. I'm ant, I'm a fool, 188 00:13:10,916 --> 00:13:14,436 Speaker 1: all that guilt of if only, what if? Why didn't 189 00:13:14,476 --> 00:13:20,116 Speaker 1: I and often don't seek support because there's this sense 190 00:13:20,116 --> 00:13:24,116 Speaker 1: of shame that I can't ask for help. But you 191 00:13:24,276 --> 00:13:27,756 Speaker 1: need both to be compassionate to yourself and get the 192 00:13:27,796 --> 00:13:33,676 Speaker 1: support of other people so that that processing isn't chilly 193 00:13:33,756 --> 00:13:38,436 Speaker 1: and isolating and alone, but is connected and that you 194 00:13:38,476 --> 00:13:41,196 Speaker 1: can feel the warmth and the heart or another person 195 00:13:41,276 --> 00:13:46,996 Speaker 1: with you. But the person who's listening who says, Okay, Julie, 196 00:13:47,076 --> 00:13:49,396 Speaker 1: I totally understand that I need love to heal, but 197 00:13:50,276 --> 00:13:54,076 Speaker 1: I currently don't have those resources in my life. Where 198 00:13:54,156 --> 00:13:56,196 Speaker 1: can they begin? I mean, is there are there ways 199 00:13:56,236 --> 00:13:59,996 Speaker 1: to find that compassion in love? I mean, we do 200 00:14:00,036 --> 00:14:02,396 Speaker 1: live in a digital world where maybe it's possible to 201 00:14:02,476 --> 00:14:04,356 Speaker 1: forage connections that you might not have been able to. 202 00:14:04,436 --> 00:14:06,196 Speaker 1: But I just I want to give hope to the 203 00:14:06,236 --> 00:14:08,516 Speaker 1: person who says, okay, you know, the privileged among us 204 00:14:08,596 --> 00:14:11,516 Speaker 1: might have lots of love in our support networks, but 205 00:14:11,916 --> 00:14:15,636 Speaker 1: I don't, so I think the first place to turn 206 00:14:15,756 --> 00:14:19,276 Speaker 1: is to yourself, is to be self compassionate. And then 207 00:14:19,956 --> 00:14:23,316 Speaker 1: you know, there really are groups, a lot of support 208 00:14:23,356 --> 00:14:26,876 Speaker 1: groups for people that are grieving, and it's often the 209 00:14:26,916 --> 00:14:30,276 Speaker 1: groups around the relationship with the person that died, so 210 00:14:30,436 --> 00:14:33,516 Speaker 1: you know, partners that have died, or parents that have died, 211 00:14:33,876 --> 00:14:36,036 Speaker 1: or children that have died, so that you can find, 212 00:14:37,196 --> 00:14:38,956 Speaker 1: you know, this club that nobody wants to be a 213 00:14:38,996 --> 00:14:42,276 Speaker 1: member of, but you can join. And I think if 214 00:14:42,316 --> 00:14:44,196 Speaker 1: you don't want to do it through grief, you can 215 00:14:44,276 --> 00:14:52,436 Speaker 1: do it through volunteering or pastimes, you know, joining organizations, 216 00:14:52,516 --> 00:14:55,476 Speaker 1: gardening clubs. Are you interested in art? Are you interested 217 00:14:55,516 --> 00:14:58,516 Speaker 1: in music? Are you interested in nature? Do you like cycling? 218 00:14:59,076 --> 00:15:02,596 Speaker 1: And so I think for someone who's grieving, what's difficult 219 00:15:02,796 --> 00:15:05,956 Speaker 1: is taking themselves that one step out of their comfort 220 00:15:06,076 --> 00:15:10,276 Speaker 1: zone to kind of say I need more help than 221 00:15:10,316 --> 00:15:13,556 Speaker 1: i'm getting myself, because you can get into this incredibly 222 00:15:13,636 --> 00:15:17,756 Speaker 1: negative cycle that nobody cares, nobody loves me, and nothing's 223 00:15:17,796 --> 00:15:21,516 Speaker 1: going to make any difference. And the more you say 224 00:15:21,556 --> 00:15:24,796 Speaker 1: that to yourself, the harder it is to take that 225 00:15:24,916 --> 00:15:28,516 Speaker 1: first step and find a network that would meet you. 226 00:15:29,476 --> 00:15:34,996 Speaker 1: But anyone listening, I would say please just small for 227 00:15:35,116 --> 00:15:37,996 Speaker 1: what you know, do small things. Don't set yourself too 228 00:15:38,036 --> 00:15:42,276 Speaker 1: big a task. Send the first email, do the first 229 00:15:42,276 --> 00:15:45,716 Speaker 1: Google search, and then every day do a little step. 230 00:15:45,796 --> 00:15:47,596 Speaker 1: You don't have to be in the group, like find 231 00:15:47,596 --> 00:15:49,676 Speaker 1: out think about what you're interested in that can be 232 00:15:49,716 --> 00:15:52,836 Speaker 1: your task to day, do a Google about what there 233 00:15:52,916 --> 00:15:55,916 Speaker 1: is locally that can be a task another day. You know, 234 00:15:55,996 --> 00:16:00,276 Speaker 1: so that you do incremental steps towards finally support for yourself. 235 00:16:01,436 --> 00:16:04,836 Speaker 1: I love what you say about about loneliness because the 236 00:16:05,036 --> 00:16:08,596 Speaker 1: vague Morthy, who is a certain general, he was going 237 00:16:08,636 --> 00:16:12,116 Speaker 1: on a medical expedition initially to different parts of the country, 238 00:16:12,156 --> 00:16:15,996 Speaker 1: trying to understand these different health conditions like addiction and 239 00:16:17,476 --> 00:16:22,796 Speaker 1: obesity exactly and ultimately found that loneliness was at its root. 240 00:16:23,316 --> 00:16:26,916 Speaker 1: So I love the recommendations that you make around how 241 00:16:26,956 --> 00:16:29,076 Speaker 1: any of us can try try and seek that out. 242 00:16:30,436 --> 00:16:32,996 Speaker 1: I know the way that we grieve can be very 243 00:16:33,036 --> 00:16:38,596 Speaker 1: idiosyncratic based on so many factors, like our psychological wiring, 244 00:16:38,676 --> 00:16:41,676 Speaker 1: our circumstances, what have you. But I know you have 245 00:16:41,796 --> 00:16:44,996 Speaker 1: identified at least some common patterns across the people that 246 00:16:45,036 --> 00:16:48,316 Speaker 1: you've worked with, especially in the aftermath of loss. Like 247 00:16:48,516 --> 00:16:51,156 Speaker 1: I was just I was talking with a friend of mine, Quinn, 248 00:16:51,156 --> 00:16:55,756 Speaker 1: who lost her nineteen year old sister, and I remember 249 00:16:55,796 --> 00:17:00,316 Speaker 1: at the memorial service she was saying, a part of 250 00:17:00,356 --> 00:17:03,636 Speaker 1: me feels she's still coming home. You know, my brain, 251 00:17:04,756 --> 00:17:09,316 Speaker 1: my rational brain, fully registers that she's gone. But how 252 00:17:09,316 --> 00:17:12,076 Speaker 1: could it be? How could it be that that Dixie, 253 00:17:12,156 --> 00:17:15,796 Speaker 1: who had the most promising future one can imagine, is gone, 254 00:17:15,796 --> 00:17:19,876 Speaker 1: Like her brain wasn't able to make that connection. And 255 00:17:19,916 --> 00:17:23,876 Speaker 1: so yeah, I would just love for you to unpack 256 00:17:23,996 --> 00:17:26,556 Speaker 1: these two distinct frames of mind. And I like that 257 00:17:26,596 --> 00:17:29,356 Speaker 1: you talk about in terms of movement between the two, 258 00:17:30,796 --> 00:17:37,396 Speaker 1: the adjustment to like your friend's sister dying suddenly and 259 00:17:37,756 --> 00:17:40,876 Speaker 1: at nineteen, which is you know, a death out of time, 260 00:17:42,036 --> 00:17:46,676 Speaker 1: that kind of out of the clear blue sky shock. 261 00:17:47,836 --> 00:17:50,796 Speaker 1: The process of accommodation learning to live with it is 262 00:17:50,796 --> 00:17:53,956 Speaker 1: a movement between facing the reality and feeling the pain 263 00:17:54,076 --> 00:17:57,276 Speaker 1: where her head knew it but her heart didn't feel it. 264 00:17:58,396 --> 00:18:03,196 Speaker 1: The pain kind of allows some connection between the two 265 00:18:03,236 --> 00:18:04,996 Speaker 1: where the head and the heart of feeling it at 266 00:18:05,036 --> 00:18:07,636 Speaker 1: the same time, like, ah, you know, I'm buying a 267 00:18:09,196 --> 00:18:12,156 Speaker 1: set of yogurts for four and we're used to be 268 00:18:12,196 --> 00:18:15,716 Speaker 1: four people an hour, only three and in that moment 269 00:18:16,236 --> 00:18:20,516 Speaker 1: you know it, and then in that moment, as you know, 270 00:18:20,796 --> 00:18:23,796 Speaker 1: you kind of adjust an accommodate, and then it frees 271 00:18:23,836 --> 00:18:28,436 Speaker 1: you to have a little breather and be restorative, like 272 00:18:28,556 --> 00:18:33,156 Speaker 1: go home, make some supper, do something that soothes you 273 00:18:33,236 --> 00:18:37,756 Speaker 1: that is intentionally calming. And it's the movement between the two, 274 00:18:37,956 --> 00:18:41,756 Speaker 1: allowing yourself to have times to remember to be sad, 275 00:18:41,836 --> 00:18:45,076 Speaker 1: to talk to a friend, to grieve, and time to 276 00:18:45,116 --> 00:18:48,396 Speaker 1: give yourself a break from grief, to give yourself permission 277 00:18:49,116 --> 00:18:53,396 Speaker 1: to have moments of joy or moments of calm or 278 00:18:54,236 --> 00:18:57,876 Speaker 1: kind of feel within yourself a sort of sense of 279 00:18:57,956 --> 00:19:02,916 Speaker 1: peace that it isn't so raw. I think we can 280 00:19:02,996 --> 00:19:05,876 Speaker 1: choose times that we focus on our lost through having 281 00:19:06,996 --> 00:19:11,076 Speaker 1: a memory box or different ways that we can decide 282 00:19:11,116 --> 00:19:12,956 Speaker 1: to kind of focus on them, because I think one 283 00:19:12,996 --> 00:19:17,196 Speaker 1: of the aspects that is also not kind of recognized 284 00:19:18,276 --> 00:19:22,156 Speaker 1: is there's a dual process of facing the reality that 285 00:19:22,196 --> 00:19:27,196 Speaker 1: this person is no longer physically present, but what we 286 00:19:27,356 --> 00:19:30,196 Speaker 1: feel for them, our love for them, never dies. The 287 00:19:30,356 --> 00:19:35,596 Speaker 1: love continues, and so it isn't about forgetting and moving on, 288 00:19:36,076 --> 00:19:44,036 Speaker 1: It's about remembering and connecting when we're back from the 289 00:19:44,116 --> 00:19:46,676 Speaker 1: break Julia will give us advice on how to process 290 00:19:46,716 --> 00:19:58,916 Speaker 1: our grief. Julia Samuel has been a grief therapist for 291 00:19:58,956 --> 00:20:01,556 Speaker 1: more than thirty years, much of that time working with 292 00:20:01,596 --> 00:20:06,356 Speaker 1: the UK's National Health Service or NHS. Through her experiences, 293 00:20:06,436 --> 00:20:09,116 Speaker 1: Julia has identified some things we can do to help 294 00:20:09,356 --> 00:20:12,836 Speaker 1: through the grieving process. She calls them pillars of strength, 295 00:20:13,236 --> 00:20:14,836 Speaker 1: and we did a deep dive on a few of 296 00:20:14,876 --> 00:20:19,156 Speaker 1: them in our conversation. So I came up with the 297 00:20:19,196 --> 00:20:23,276 Speaker 1: pillars not as a kind of ten rules, but from 298 00:20:23,356 --> 00:20:27,076 Speaker 1: a perspective of when we're in the throes of this 299 00:20:27,276 --> 00:20:32,836 Speaker 1: tumultuous experience, when we feel like we have this hole 300 00:20:33,156 --> 00:20:38,396 Speaker 1: in the center of our being, we need attitudes, ways 301 00:20:38,436 --> 00:20:42,516 Speaker 1: of being and behaviors that can hold us up when 302 00:20:42,556 --> 00:20:48,636 Speaker 1: we feel kind of tipped and off kilter. And survival kit. 303 00:20:48,796 --> 00:20:53,396 Speaker 1: It's your survival kit. Yeah, And I think the thing 304 00:20:54,476 --> 00:20:59,316 Speaker 1: that helps people a lot is the relationship to the 305 00:20:59,316 --> 00:21:03,836 Speaker 1: person that's died. So I've often people will once I 306 00:21:03,956 --> 00:21:07,716 Speaker 1: talked to them about, you know, grieving and feeling the 307 00:21:07,756 --> 00:21:11,876 Speaker 1: pain of their death, but also in continuing their relationship. 308 00:21:11,916 --> 00:21:18,356 Speaker 1: People are amazingly creative in what they do. So one 309 00:21:18,396 --> 00:21:22,076 Speaker 1: person her husband died and she got his pajamas and 310 00:21:22,196 --> 00:21:28,436 Speaker 1: made them into a patchwork quilt that she put on 311 00:21:28,476 --> 00:21:32,276 Speaker 1: their children's beds, so that they had all these little 312 00:21:32,356 --> 00:21:34,596 Speaker 1: squares of their dad on their beds, so when they 313 00:21:34,596 --> 00:21:37,356 Speaker 1: went to sleep when they really missed him, they had 314 00:21:37,396 --> 00:21:41,476 Speaker 1: some of their dad. And someone else had a son 315 00:21:41,556 --> 00:21:45,876 Speaker 1: that died in a terrible car crash, and they didn't 316 00:21:45,876 --> 00:21:50,036 Speaker 1: want other people to see their mementos. But in their 317 00:21:50,076 --> 00:21:52,476 Speaker 1: mains kind of sitting room where they lived all the time, 318 00:21:52,876 --> 00:21:57,396 Speaker 1: they had a trunk and inside the trunk was his trainers, 319 00:21:58,036 --> 00:22:01,596 Speaker 1: were some of his school books, the wristband that he 320 00:22:01,676 --> 00:22:04,796 Speaker 1: had when he died, a lot of his things, and 321 00:22:04,876 --> 00:22:06,956 Speaker 1: some of them sort of still felt to them like 322 00:22:06,996 --> 00:22:11,756 Speaker 1: they smelt of him, and so that he was there 323 00:22:11,836 --> 00:22:14,516 Speaker 1: what other people couldn't see. And when they wanted, they 324 00:22:14,516 --> 00:22:18,756 Speaker 1: could open the trunk and she could put his t shirt, 325 00:22:18,796 --> 00:22:21,556 Speaker 1: you know, into her nose and feel connected to him, 326 00:22:22,196 --> 00:22:26,796 Speaker 1: and that would meet an expression of needing to love him, 327 00:22:26,876 --> 00:22:33,196 Speaker 1: because it's that people miss the hugs, the telling them 328 00:22:33,236 --> 00:22:35,676 Speaker 1: I love you, and they feel like they've failed, and 329 00:22:35,716 --> 00:22:41,076 Speaker 1: so having something concrete that you can go to really helps. 330 00:22:42,356 --> 00:22:44,916 Speaker 1: I think one of the other pillars that really helps 331 00:22:45,356 --> 00:22:49,156 Speaker 1: is moving your body, you know, taking exercise, getting your 332 00:22:49,156 --> 00:22:53,116 Speaker 1: heart rate up, because it reduces the cortisol. It brings 333 00:22:53,196 --> 00:22:57,836 Speaker 1: your whole mind body connection down to kind of first 334 00:22:57,876 --> 00:23:02,996 Speaker 1: gear where then you can get support, You can think 335 00:23:03,076 --> 00:23:06,276 Speaker 1: more clearly, You can choose to do things that are 336 00:23:06,356 --> 00:23:10,516 Speaker 1: kind of kind to you rather than of desperation and fear. 337 00:23:11,356 --> 00:23:13,116 Speaker 1: So I mean, I say to people, one of the 338 00:23:13,156 --> 00:23:15,356 Speaker 1: first things I say to any clients I said it 339 00:23:15,436 --> 00:23:20,636 Speaker 1: this week is get outside. You know, even if it's 340 00:23:20,676 --> 00:23:22,916 Speaker 1: going for a walk around the block, you know, on 341 00:23:22,956 --> 00:23:28,116 Speaker 1: a pavement with tons of noise and cars ten minutes outside. 342 00:23:28,156 --> 00:23:32,076 Speaker 1: You will always feel better if you can go into nature, 343 00:23:32,076 --> 00:23:34,836 Speaker 1: if you can go into a park, that is even better. 344 00:23:35,516 --> 00:23:38,356 Speaker 1: Because what you want is to choose things that help 345 00:23:38,516 --> 00:23:43,876 Speaker 1: calibrate your over alert system, to help you bring your 346 00:23:43,876 --> 00:23:48,516 Speaker 1: system down, because then you then you can connect with 347 00:23:48,516 --> 00:23:50,556 Speaker 1: other people and connect with yourself in a way that 348 00:23:50,596 --> 00:23:53,836 Speaker 1: you can't and you're kind of really stressed out, really 349 00:23:54,036 --> 00:23:56,236 Speaker 1: kind of full of fear. One thing I read in 350 00:23:56,236 --> 00:23:59,876 Speaker 1: your book about our relationship with ourselves that I just 351 00:23:59,916 --> 00:24:03,476 Speaker 1: had never really thought about was the way in which 352 00:24:03,836 --> 00:24:06,916 Speaker 1: the death of someone that we love can affect our 353 00:24:06,956 --> 00:24:12,196 Speaker 1: self structure our self identity, the way it can affect 354 00:24:12,196 --> 00:24:15,916 Speaker 1: our self esteem and our confidence because of our inability 355 00:24:16,036 --> 00:24:19,356 Speaker 1: to in those moments feel like we can fully be ourselves. 356 00:24:19,996 --> 00:24:23,556 Speaker 1: And I resonated with that so much. I mean, as 357 00:24:23,596 --> 00:24:25,836 Speaker 1: you know, and many of my listeners know because I 358 00:24:25,836 --> 00:24:29,596 Speaker 1: shared this story on the show. You know, my husband Jimmy, 359 00:24:29,596 --> 00:24:35,236 Speaker 1: and I lost identical twin girls to a miscarriage via surrogacy, 360 00:24:36,076 --> 00:24:40,516 Speaker 1: and I don't think at the time I appreciated the 361 00:24:40,596 --> 00:24:44,156 Speaker 1: loss of identity, and I think learning about that from 362 00:24:44,196 --> 00:24:47,116 Speaker 1: me was really helpful to me, which is again, it 363 00:24:47,156 --> 00:24:49,356 Speaker 1: was this short lived period where I felt like I 364 00:24:49,436 --> 00:24:53,276 Speaker 1: was a mom, or as you guys would say, a mom, 365 00:24:53,356 --> 00:24:56,436 Speaker 1: and you know, from that first blue line on the 366 00:24:56,436 --> 00:25:00,396 Speaker 1: pregnancy test, suddenly I feel like I'm a mother. And 367 00:25:00,516 --> 00:25:05,036 Speaker 1: so when the loss happens, you're grieving certainly the loss 368 00:25:05,916 --> 00:25:08,556 Speaker 1: of that pregnancy, but you're also grieving the loss of 369 00:25:08,556 --> 00:25:13,316 Speaker 1: an identity that you were aspiring to have. And when 370 00:25:13,356 --> 00:25:16,956 Speaker 1: you saw that blue line, you pictured yourself as a 371 00:25:17,036 --> 00:25:20,076 Speaker 1: mom holding a baby who would be a parent for 372 00:25:20,116 --> 00:25:23,076 Speaker 1: the rest of her life. So you kind of grieving 373 00:25:23,116 --> 00:25:29,516 Speaker 1: the dream as a mom, and that's incredibly painful. Yes, 374 00:25:30,836 --> 00:25:33,596 Speaker 1: Are there any other pillars of strength you'd like to share. 375 00:25:36,756 --> 00:25:40,556 Speaker 1: I think the other ones that are really helpful are 376 00:25:41,876 --> 00:25:49,076 Speaker 1: to do with limits, so that our capacity to manage 377 00:25:49,076 --> 00:25:52,716 Speaker 1: ourselves to engage in the world of what we can do. 378 00:25:53,716 --> 00:26:00,476 Speaker 1: Our boundaries change when we're grieving, and people often push 379 00:26:00,596 --> 00:26:03,436 Speaker 1: us to come and do something or want us to 380 00:26:03,476 --> 00:26:09,036 Speaker 1: be okay because they want us to kind of be okay, 381 00:26:09,316 --> 00:26:13,636 Speaker 1: and so kind of recognizing how important your boundaries are 382 00:26:13,676 --> 00:26:17,236 Speaker 1: when you're so out of control, and that having a 383 00:26:17,276 --> 00:26:20,316 Speaker 1: good no means that when you say yes, it's a 384 00:26:20,436 --> 00:26:22,996 Speaker 1: really good yes, and that can be very positive and 385 00:26:23,036 --> 00:26:27,156 Speaker 1: confident building. So it's not saying no to the world, 386 00:26:27,196 --> 00:26:30,676 Speaker 1: but really assessing of how much energy do I have? 387 00:26:31,436 --> 00:26:34,556 Speaker 1: Will this be? Can I cope with this? Do I 388 00:26:34,636 --> 00:26:36,516 Speaker 1: dare go out of my comfort zone? Maybe it's good 389 00:26:36,516 --> 00:26:38,996 Speaker 1: a little bit, you know, all of those things and 390 00:26:39,156 --> 00:26:43,116 Speaker 1: deciding rather than kind of pushing through, which I think 391 00:26:43,116 --> 00:26:46,356 Speaker 1: people often want to do. I think one that I 392 00:26:47,196 --> 00:26:50,676 Speaker 1: one of the pillars that I have relied on during 393 00:26:51,396 --> 00:26:55,036 Speaker 1: what's been just incredibly hard period of time for the 394 00:26:55,196 --> 00:26:58,676 Speaker 1: entire world has been I think you would catch this 395 00:26:58,756 --> 00:27:04,156 Speaker 1: under your structure pillar. But having extremely small rituals in 396 00:27:04,196 --> 00:27:07,636 Speaker 1: my day to day life that without fail I try 397 00:27:07,676 --> 00:27:10,436 Speaker 1: and do and for me, I know you're a tea lover, Julius, 398 00:27:10,436 --> 00:27:12,196 Speaker 1: so you're going to find residence in this one. But 399 00:27:12,836 --> 00:27:16,996 Speaker 1: it is making myself a cup of Indian style tea. 400 00:27:17,116 --> 00:27:21,196 Speaker 1: So I get out the fresh ginger cardamum boiled milk. 401 00:27:21,636 --> 00:27:23,956 Speaker 1: All all you Indian people out there know what I'm 402 00:27:23,956 --> 00:27:28,236 Speaker 1: talking about. It's the most delightful, wonderful part of my day. 403 00:27:28,396 --> 00:27:33,116 Speaker 1: And every morning I start off with at least two cups. 404 00:27:33,676 --> 00:27:38,556 Speaker 1: And you know, I sometimes do it begrudgingly because when 405 00:27:38,596 --> 00:27:43,356 Speaker 1: there is trauma and grief, it doesn't feel like it fits. 406 00:27:43,996 --> 00:27:47,596 Speaker 1: It feels jarring to have that kind of indulgence against 407 00:27:47,596 --> 00:27:52,756 Speaker 1: the backdrop of pain. But just the mere fact I'm 408 00:27:52,796 --> 00:27:56,996 Speaker 1: engaging in what I would call a normal behavior is 409 00:27:57,036 --> 00:27:59,716 Speaker 1: therapeutic in its own way. It signals to the subconscious 410 00:27:59,756 --> 00:28:02,796 Speaker 1: part of my brain that there are some parts of 411 00:28:02,836 --> 00:28:08,076 Speaker 1: life that are still okay. I think that's so beautiful. 412 00:28:08,236 --> 00:28:12,356 Speaker 1: And in some ways it's simple but complex what you're saying, 413 00:28:12,396 --> 00:28:16,676 Speaker 1: in the sense that kind of that's a structure that 414 00:28:16,796 --> 00:28:19,236 Speaker 1: is really a ritual, isn't it. That is a self 415 00:28:19,276 --> 00:28:23,356 Speaker 1: soothing calming, safe place ritual that takes you back to 416 00:28:23,436 --> 00:28:26,516 Speaker 1: your roots in your family, you know, to all that 417 00:28:26,556 --> 00:28:30,516 Speaker 1: you understand and where you feel safe. And as you say, 418 00:28:30,556 --> 00:28:34,996 Speaker 1: when you're kind of in trauma, everything is like your 419 00:28:35,036 --> 00:28:38,076 Speaker 1: body is on far and you're drowning at the same time, 420 00:28:38,596 --> 00:28:43,596 Speaker 1: so that everything is heywa But by having small, bite sized, 421 00:28:44,396 --> 00:28:49,516 Speaker 1: very manageable structures and rituals again, they just bring you 422 00:28:49,596 --> 00:28:52,396 Speaker 1: down a little bit to that sense of safety, and 423 00:28:52,476 --> 00:28:55,716 Speaker 1: feeling safe in your body and your mind and in 424 00:28:55,756 --> 00:29:00,356 Speaker 1: your home gives you a kind of robustness to deal 425 00:29:00,396 --> 00:29:04,436 Speaker 1: with the onslaught of the feelings of your trauma and 426 00:29:04,476 --> 00:29:08,996 Speaker 1: the loss. So we've talked a bit about how we 427 00:29:09,116 --> 00:29:13,116 Speaker 1: can help ourselves in the throes of grief, and I'm 428 00:29:13,116 --> 00:29:16,036 Speaker 1: wondering what we should keep in mind when a person 429 00:29:16,116 --> 00:29:19,076 Speaker 1: we love has lost someone and we're so eager to help, 430 00:29:19,196 --> 00:29:26,236 Speaker 1: and naturally the answers don't feel clear to us. I mean, 431 00:29:26,276 --> 00:29:30,716 Speaker 1: what did you need from others? It's a great question. 432 00:29:33,476 --> 00:29:37,516 Speaker 1: I think what I needed from people was helping me 433 00:29:37,596 --> 00:29:42,356 Speaker 1: understand what I needed. I didn't know what I needed, 434 00:29:42,476 --> 00:29:45,436 Speaker 1: and I was so perplexed and I was so confused. 435 00:29:45,476 --> 00:29:48,156 Speaker 1: I remember texting my brother, because he was like, I 436 00:29:48,476 --> 00:29:50,476 Speaker 1: don't know what you need right now, and I want 437 00:29:50,476 --> 00:29:52,116 Speaker 1: to be there for you and I want to support you. 438 00:29:52,156 --> 00:29:54,236 Speaker 1: And I said, I don't know what I need right now, 439 00:29:54,556 --> 00:29:56,756 Speaker 1: and I'm sorry that I don't have that clarity. And 440 00:29:56,796 --> 00:29:59,876 Speaker 1: I'm not trying to be flipped or anything. I just 441 00:30:00,036 --> 00:30:03,956 Speaker 1: I don't know. And I think actually calling upon the 442 00:30:03,996 --> 00:30:06,276 Speaker 1: people you love to help you figure that out, to 443 00:30:06,356 --> 00:30:10,596 Speaker 1: actually bring them in on the journey with you, to 444 00:30:10,716 --> 00:30:14,036 Speaker 1: test things out, and almost view it as an experimental 445 00:30:14,076 --> 00:30:19,036 Speaker 1: process that you're in together. I think that's that's maybe 446 00:30:18,476 --> 00:30:22,516 Speaker 1: what's helpful to me in these moments. I mean, that 447 00:30:22,556 --> 00:30:27,236 Speaker 1: sounds so rare and so unique that you had open 448 00:30:27,316 --> 00:30:31,676 Speaker 1: and trusting communication like him saying I don't know what 449 00:30:31,796 --> 00:30:35,116 Speaker 1: you need. I just want you to know that I 450 00:30:35,156 --> 00:30:37,676 Speaker 1: love you and that I'm here, and that you were 451 00:30:37,716 --> 00:30:40,156 Speaker 1: able to say back, I really don't know what I 452 00:30:40,236 --> 00:30:43,756 Speaker 1: need either, that you were completely transparent with each other. 453 00:30:44,076 --> 00:30:51,156 Speaker 1: Often in families, people say I'm fine, how are you? 454 00:30:51,156 --> 00:30:56,196 Speaker 1: You know? It becomes and the walls of protection, which 455 00:30:56,196 --> 00:30:59,756 Speaker 1: are meant to protect the other person from suffering, or 456 00:30:59,876 --> 00:31:04,596 Speaker 1: often walls that creates gaps of connection where people then 457 00:31:04,676 --> 00:31:09,876 Speaker 1: suffer in isolation and more. I'm just remembering to that 458 00:31:10,676 --> 00:31:16,076 Speaker 1: one breakthrough I had with my brother was telling him 459 00:31:16,156 --> 00:31:19,476 Speaker 1: in part why I was pushing him away, and that 460 00:31:19,556 --> 00:31:22,236 Speaker 1: was because I was jealous of him. He has three 461 00:31:22,676 --> 00:31:25,676 Speaker 1: beautiful daughters, my nieces, who I love more than anything, 462 00:31:25,876 --> 00:31:29,876 Speaker 1: and in that moment, I resented that that wasn't my life. 463 00:31:29,916 --> 00:31:32,676 Speaker 1: I resented that he hadn't gone through this path like 464 00:31:32,716 --> 00:31:35,796 Speaker 1: all things you hate admitting but are just true. And 465 00:31:35,916 --> 00:31:38,836 Speaker 1: I felt like, easy for you to say, easy for 466 00:31:38,876 --> 00:31:41,556 Speaker 1: you to say, with your perfect family, that's the instinct. 467 00:31:41,636 --> 00:31:45,076 Speaker 1: And of course that's such such a disservice to his 468 00:31:45,156 --> 00:31:48,796 Speaker 1: life too, which is of course not you know, no 469 00:31:48,836 --> 00:31:51,156 Speaker 1: one's life is the picture perfect thing. But in that moment, 470 00:31:51,196 --> 00:31:53,996 Speaker 1: I think I was. I was filled with that kind 471 00:31:53,996 --> 00:31:59,796 Speaker 1: of frustration and resentment, and just telling him, admitting to 472 00:31:59,876 --> 00:32:04,156 Speaker 1: that was it helped to bridge an important gap that 473 00:32:04,236 --> 00:32:06,636 Speaker 1: I was feeling. So I don't know if that helps 474 00:32:06,676 --> 00:32:10,436 Speaker 1: anyone listening that, like, sometimes just admit to aiming it, Yeah, 475 00:32:10,596 --> 00:32:13,836 Speaker 1: just say it did the person. It's okay, you know, 476 00:32:14,556 --> 00:32:17,836 Speaker 1: but it actually takes insight to know that it was 477 00:32:17,876 --> 00:32:21,116 Speaker 1: the jealousy of him with his three daughters that was 478 00:32:21,156 --> 00:32:23,996 Speaker 1: blocking you because sometimes it's hard to kind of recognize 479 00:32:24,956 --> 00:32:29,516 Speaker 1: you with your propriate liphan exactly, And like, why was 480 00:32:29,556 --> 00:32:31,516 Speaker 1: it that my child free friends were able to bring 481 00:32:31,516 --> 00:32:35,756 Speaker 1: you more comfort in those days? Well? Du right, Why 482 00:32:35,836 --> 00:32:37,556 Speaker 1: was I not pushing them away? Why was I more 483 00:32:37,556 --> 00:32:39,756 Speaker 1: willing to want to talk to them? You know, yes, 484 00:32:40,876 --> 00:32:44,276 Speaker 1: but you have a lot of self knowledge, and naming 485 00:32:44,316 --> 00:32:50,116 Speaker 1: what's difficult often bridges the gap, doesn't Yeah, my dad 486 00:32:50,156 --> 00:32:54,836 Speaker 1: of justifying it, not explaining it, just saying and he'll 487 00:32:54,876 --> 00:33:00,396 Speaker 1: get that, yeah, yeah, he did. You know, Juliet, you 488 00:33:01,156 --> 00:33:05,436 Speaker 1: spent thirty years in this space, and you've had the 489 00:33:05,516 --> 00:33:08,876 Speaker 1: rare experience of counseling so many people through the worst 490 00:33:08,916 --> 00:33:12,716 Speaker 1: moments of their lives. I'm sure your patients have taught 491 00:33:12,756 --> 00:33:15,476 Speaker 1: you countless lessons. You say as much in your book. 492 00:33:15,876 --> 00:33:19,436 Speaker 1: But I'm wondering if there was any particular patient or 493 00:33:19,556 --> 00:33:24,676 Speaker 1: story that changed you in a significant way, you know, 494 00:33:25,556 --> 00:33:29,916 Speaker 1: working in the NHS where children died, you know, completely 495 00:33:29,956 --> 00:33:33,436 Speaker 1: out of the blue or with a terrible diagnosis, or 496 00:33:34,276 --> 00:33:38,236 Speaker 1: all the different ways it's done. Two things. One is 497 00:33:38,276 --> 00:33:41,836 Speaker 1: I have more fear for my own children or grandchildren 498 00:33:41,836 --> 00:33:43,636 Speaker 1: because I really know in a way that I can't 499 00:33:43,716 --> 00:33:46,956 Speaker 1: not know that they can die. So when they have 500 00:33:46,996 --> 00:33:48,956 Speaker 1: a headache, I think they have a brain tumor. When 501 00:33:48,956 --> 00:33:52,396 Speaker 1: they're late, I think they've been run over, and it 502 00:33:52,636 --> 00:33:57,076 Speaker 1: drives them nuts. My son now when he says call me, 503 00:33:57,116 --> 00:34:05,996 Speaker 1: he always puts brackets, not bad news. That's so sweet. 504 00:34:06,756 --> 00:34:12,596 Speaker 1: At the other end of that is just enormous awe 505 00:34:12,716 --> 00:34:16,276 Speaker 1: at the preciousness of life and what people like you 506 00:34:17,236 --> 00:34:20,996 Speaker 1: can survive and still live and love again and dare 507 00:34:21,036 --> 00:34:28,396 Speaker 1: to and the extraordinariness of our human beings and the 508 00:34:28,436 --> 00:34:30,756 Speaker 1: people I've worked with, and you know, just knowing you 509 00:34:30,796 --> 00:34:34,396 Speaker 1: and seeing you, that we can do that, and that 510 00:34:34,516 --> 00:34:43,916 Speaker 1: feels so extraordinary. And so I feel very grateful every 511 00:34:43,996 --> 00:34:48,636 Speaker 1: day that I'm alive. So you know, every night I 512 00:34:48,756 --> 00:34:50,916 Speaker 1: don't really believe in God per se, but I thank 513 00:34:50,996 --> 00:34:53,116 Speaker 1: God and I say all my children's names, I say 514 00:34:53,156 --> 00:34:56,516 Speaker 1: my husband's name and my grandchildren's names, that they're alive. 515 00:34:57,116 --> 00:35:02,916 Speaker 1: And that gratitude really works for me. What's your advice 516 00:35:02,996 --> 00:35:06,076 Speaker 1: to us when it comes to what we should do 517 00:35:06,156 --> 00:35:11,516 Speaker 1: more of in life to manage our grief better when 518 00:35:11,516 --> 00:35:17,996 Speaker 1: it does happen, when it inevitably happens. I think important 519 00:35:18,036 --> 00:35:22,076 Speaker 1: conversations with the people that you love about death and dying. 520 00:35:22,156 --> 00:35:25,516 Speaker 1: Your own and deaths can really help you when it happens, 521 00:35:26,676 --> 00:35:30,716 Speaker 1: because you have some recognition that we're all mortal, and 522 00:35:30,756 --> 00:35:37,716 Speaker 1: I think that is very supportive. And I think the 523 00:35:37,796 --> 00:35:41,916 Speaker 1: big thing is to really learn to kind of support 524 00:35:41,996 --> 00:35:45,316 Speaker 1: ourselves with you know, we don't always have to face 525 00:35:45,516 --> 00:35:49,396 Speaker 1: grief from death to have difficult things, But by finding 526 00:35:49,556 --> 00:35:54,036 Speaker 1: our own tool kit within ourselves of how we manage 527 00:35:54,116 --> 00:36:00,556 Speaker 1: difficulty and that we can then access that when the 528 00:36:00,596 --> 00:36:05,436 Speaker 1: difficulty gets worse, will really help us. Don't go close 529 00:36:05,476 --> 00:36:07,156 Speaker 1: your eyes. Bad things aren't going to happen to me. 530 00:36:07,236 --> 00:36:08,876 Speaker 1: Bad things aren't going to happen to me, because then 531 00:36:08,876 --> 00:36:13,316 Speaker 1: when it happens, you are really left with so little 532 00:36:13,516 --> 00:36:17,996 Speaker 1: inside yourself that can support you. So develop good support systems, 533 00:36:18,076 --> 00:36:22,796 Speaker 1: both as much as possible with your friendships and your family, 534 00:36:23,476 --> 00:36:28,196 Speaker 1: but also internally. Yeah, yeah, all right. I'll end on 535 00:36:28,476 --> 00:36:30,996 Speaker 1: a beautiful quote of yours, which you've already alluded to, 536 00:36:32,076 --> 00:36:34,836 Speaker 1: that you say, when there is death, love is the 537 00:36:34,876 --> 00:36:38,396 Speaker 1: only way forward. Do you mind justus sharing what that 538 00:36:38,436 --> 00:36:41,836 Speaker 1: means to you on a personal level. I think in 539 00:36:41,876 --> 00:36:44,356 Speaker 1: the end, the only thing that really matters is love. 540 00:36:45,396 --> 00:36:48,756 Speaker 1: When we look back at our lives, it's the love 541 00:36:48,796 --> 00:36:51,316 Speaker 1: we've felt for others and that they've felt for us 542 00:36:52,356 --> 00:36:57,156 Speaker 1: that gives us meaning. And that's that's the thing that 543 00:36:57,156 --> 00:37:22,716 Speaker 1: matters most. Hey, thanks for listening. Join me next week 544 00:37:22,756 --> 00:37:26,596 Speaker 1: when we hear from doctor Richard Harris. He's an anesthesiologist 545 00:37:26,676 --> 00:37:29,516 Speaker 1: and an expert cave diver, two skills he put to 546 00:37:29,556 --> 00:37:31,596 Speaker 1: the test when he went on a mission to rescue 547 00:37:31,596 --> 00:37:34,796 Speaker 1: a boy's soccer team from deep within a cave in Thailand. 548 00:37:35,716 --> 00:37:39,196 Speaker 1: This is the moment of truth, when this whole fanciful 549 00:37:39,236 --> 00:37:43,236 Speaker 1: idea will actually become reality. And I'm about to meet 550 00:37:43,436 --> 00:37:46,956 Speaker 1: these children who I've heard so much about and thought 551 00:37:46,996 --> 00:37:49,916 Speaker 1: so much about for such a long time, and now 552 00:37:49,956 --> 00:37:51,996 Speaker 1: I'm going to see them face to face, and I'm 553 00:37:52,036 --> 00:38:04,036 Speaker 1: going to have to make a decision. A Slight Change 554 00:38:04,036 --> 00:38:06,756 Speaker 1: of Plans is created, written an executive produced by me 555 00:38:06,916 --> 00:38:10,596 Speaker 1: Maya Schunker. The Slight Change family includes Tyler Green, our 556 00:38:10,636 --> 00:38:15,156 Speaker 1: senior producer, Emily Rosteck, our producer and fact checker, Jen Guera, 557 00:38:15,276 --> 00:38:19,356 Speaker 1: our senior editor, Ben Taliday, our sound engineer, and Neil Lavelle, 558 00:38:19,476 --> 00:38:23,116 Speaker 1: our executive producer. Louis Skara wrote our theme song and 559 00:38:23,236 --> 00:38:26,516 Speaker 1: Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of 560 00:38:26,556 --> 00:38:29,676 Speaker 1: Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, so big thanks 561 00:38:29,676 --> 00:38:33,956 Speaker 1: to everyone there, including Nicole Morano, Maggie Taylor, Eric Sandler, 562 00:38:34,116 --> 00:38:38,036 Speaker 1: Heather Fame and Carly Mgliori, and of course a very 563 00:38:38,076 --> 00:38:41,276 Speaker 1: special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A Slight 564 00:38:41,356 --> 00:38:45,236 Speaker 1: Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. See 565 00:38:45,236 --> 00:38:45,836 Speaker 1: you next week.