1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:05,440 Speaker 1: Ridiculous Historians. Thanks as always for tuning in. This week 2 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:09,040 Speaker 1: Are Powell noll Is out for a bit so Max 3 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:12,800 Speaker 1: and I wanted to share a classic episode. Max. This 4 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: one is an oldie, but a goodie, and I believe 5 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:19,960 Speaker 1: it's from Uh it's from before you started classing up 6 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: our show. Yeah, it's about a three years beforehand. This 7 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: episode was about five years old actually enough wow, and 8 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 1: from originally the end of ten. So yeah, a little 9 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 1: bit before I started with this show. Wow. Oh man, 10 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:41,519 Speaker 1: I had no idea, honestly how long we've been doing this? 11 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:45,879 Speaker 1: The time The time flies, right, So this this is 12 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 1: gonna be really interesting Max, to you and any of 13 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: our fellow ridiculous historians who haven't heard it because years back. 14 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: Got five years back, I guess now. I noticed something 15 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: really weird in a lot of the reading I do 16 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: for another show called Stuff They Don't Want You to Know, 17 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: And it was this over time the you know, back 18 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 1: in the day in previous eras, you would read political 19 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 1: statements or you read stuff from the government or Congress 20 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:21,639 Speaker 1: about almost anything, and they would most often describe people 21 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: as citizens, right, which makes sense. You know, if you 22 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:32,120 Speaker 1: work in Congress, then your employers are citizens. But something 23 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: funny happened along the way. The phrase citizens started being 24 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: used less and less often and started becoming replaced by 25 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: the word consumers, not just in uh not, you know, 26 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 1: not just in congressional statements, but in the news in 27 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: all sorts of reporting. Is this something that you ever 28 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 1: noticed or you ever clocked? Max? Okay, you gotta remember 29 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: I have a marketing degree. I studied all this stuff. 30 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean, I mean, we're all just objects 31 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, aren't we. Now we're not. 32 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 1: But sometimes it feels like that way when you're looking 33 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 1: at reports or just some reason it's like seven percent 34 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 1: of consumers feel this way. It's like, oh, that doesn't 35 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:17,920 Speaker 1: feel very personal at all, right, right, because those consumers 36 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 1: are in fact people, human beings. So without further ado, 37 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 1: in this classic episode, we are diving into what that 38 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 1: change is, how it occurred, and what it might mean 39 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 1: going forward. We hope you enjoy it. As always, we 40 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 1: can't wait to hear from you, and we'll be back 41 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 1: very soon with some brand new Ridiculous History. Ridiculous History 42 00:02:43,200 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 1: is a production of I Heart Radio. Ye. Welcome to 43 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: the show, Ladies and gentlemen, my name is Ben. My 44 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 1: name is Noel. Citizen knowl that is citizen Noal, not 45 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 1: a consumer. Well, you know, I do consume quite a 46 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: bit of things, but I like to think of myself 47 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: more as a conscientious citizen of these here United States. 48 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:29,079 Speaker 1: Noel and I just for peek behind the curtain. We 49 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 1: have been in the studio for a while today working 50 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 1: on working on a couple of different projects. Right. Yeah, 51 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: we have another show called Stuff They Don't Want You 52 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 1: to Know, and we just spent an hour and a 53 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 1: half talking about John F. Kennedy. So we're both a 54 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: little punchy, but hopefully that will translate into an entertaining 55 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 1: episode of ridiculous history. That's right, that's our show. There 56 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 1: we are. So we've had a crazy time, you know, 57 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: starting this show and looking at not just single historical 58 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 1: episodes in isolation, we've been exploring the context in which 59 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: these events occur. Yeah, I hope so. Yeah. And one 60 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: thing that I think fascinates both of us is how 61 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 1: stuff that would seem on the surface really small has 62 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:25,159 Speaker 1: these universal, ubiquitous and important, uh implications. Absolutely, and that 63 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 1: is absolutely the case today with our topic of when 64 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 1: and why did America start calling its citizens consumers, which 65 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 1: is such a good question. And before he brought this 66 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:42,280 Speaker 1: to me, I had never thought about this, Like I 67 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: it just slid by my mind, and I was reading 68 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 1: so many different stories, you know, news stories, essays, creative 69 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 1: nonfiction where people pundits, experts, authors use these phrases interchangeably, 70 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 1: which is kind of weird when you think of about it, 71 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 1: you know. Uh So, there was a recent opinion piece 72 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 1: that was published in a political newspaper called The Hill. 73 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: And in this piece, which is titled how Trump's immigration 74 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 1: plans hurt American Citizens Pocketbooks, the author Maurice Goldman criticized 75 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:24,279 Speaker 1: the Trump administration's plans for crackdown on immigration by pointing 76 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:28,600 Speaker 1: to the cost of building the infamous border wall, the 77 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:32,279 Speaker 1: cost of hiring enforcement agents, the cost of reducing legal 78 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 1: immigration channels, but of particular interest for our purposes today. 79 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: Goldman used the phrase consumer in in the body of 80 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 1: the text in the title it's citizen, but he notes 81 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: you the consumer will pay for you know, the the plans, 82 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:00,040 Speaker 1: the political plans if this wall and stuff goes to 83 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 1: and like you just said, I mean, is this an 84 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 1: issue of semantics or was this intentional? Um? And The 85 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:11,840 Speaker 1: answer to that is pretty interesting. Um, it's hard to 86 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:15,119 Speaker 1: say quite when this took place, but in the last 87 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 1: handful of years there has been an increasing tendency to 88 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 1: use the term consumer interchangeably with citizen. And that's even 89 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 1: when the conversation has to do with the economy. Yeah, 90 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 1: and again it's it seems like on the surface a 91 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 1: small thing, but political experts, growing numbers of political experts 92 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,040 Speaker 1: are concerned with this, and they're arguing that the choice 93 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: of words signals a shift in how we uh see 94 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: ourselves as individuals participating in the United States, right, and 95 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: what our role is in American society. So the people 96 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:59,480 Speaker 1: who are concerned are saying that this is moving the 97 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:04,280 Speaker 1: individual will away from this idea of citizenship working with 98 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:08,600 Speaker 1: others in collaboration towards some common, greater good right, and 99 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: toward something else. Yes, I mean that's much more selfish 100 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 1: and an individualistic and based on the acquisition of things 101 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 1: that can also be turned around applied to ideas or 102 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 1: the way our vote is almost equivalent to the way 103 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 1: we spend money exactly. And there's a professor named Jathan Sadowski. 104 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 1: Jathan Jathan j developed a list but just now no 105 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 1: Jathan like Nathan, but with a j. I know, I've 106 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 1: never seen that one before. I know that's a new one. Uh. 107 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 1: He argues that using the term consumer interchangeably with the 108 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 1: term citizen has quote become part of our default discourse, 109 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: the normal way we view society and people, And he says, 110 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 1: just look at the recent presidential election. The consumer versus 111 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: citizen language is often used with analysts and pundits talk 112 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: about elections, and this goes to the point that that 113 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: Noel highlighted voters are just consumers with preferences, and the 114 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: election is a marketplace of products to choose from. To 115 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 1: continue to quote, in the store, we vote with our dollar. 116 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: We are told that elections are functionally the same thing. 117 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 1: You just use a ballot instead of a buck to 118 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 1: cast your vote. This understanding of democratic processes as a 119 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 1: marketplace is just one more place where the citizen is 120 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 1: overtaken by the consumer. End quote. And both of these 121 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 1: words have been around for centuries and centuries right. The 122 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 1: word citizen dates back to the thirteen hundreds. Originally it 123 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:51,680 Speaker 1: meant the inhabitants of a city. Yeah. The entry in 124 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:56,080 Speaker 1: the Online Etymology Dictionary for citizen um says from site 125 00:08:56,440 --> 00:09:02,559 Speaker 1: citizen of the world translates in Greek to cosmopolites. Oh, 126 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 1: that's cool, that's a good one. On the other side, 127 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 1: the the evolution of citizen to mean what we take 128 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:13,439 Speaker 1: it to mean today, a person who has both rights 129 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 1: in a society and responsibilities to that society. That didn't 130 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: come around until around sixteen ten. The term consumer arose 131 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 1: shortly after the original version of the term citizen. I 132 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 1: love the entry for that one in the Online Etymology Dictionary. 133 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 1: It says, quote one who squanders or wastes um agent 134 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:39,559 Speaker 1: nown from consume in economic sense, one who uses up 135 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 1: goods or articles opposite of producer, and that dates back 136 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 1: to uh. Then it also says consumer goods is attested 137 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:53,560 Speaker 1: from eighteen ninety um in consumers for a representative basket 138 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 1: of goods and services. And that actually is from the 139 00:09:56,760 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 1: Bureau of Labor Statistics. Yeah, so that's these are These 140 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 1: are legit sources, and no one is saying that these 141 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:09,199 Speaker 1: words just suddenly emerged like in nineteen seventy or whatever. 142 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:13,440 Speaker 1: The Like many words in English, this is an evolving language, right, 143 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:16,959 Speaker 1: It's a living language. So like many other terms, the 144 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 1: term citizen and consumer have undergone evolution over the years, 145 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 1: and the question is what what these mean today? Right? 146 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:33,479 Speaker 1: According to Michael Munger, who is the director of the Philosophy, 147 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 1: Politics and Economics Program at Duke University's Political Science Department, 148 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: the word consumer, although it existed, as we had said, 149 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 1: for centuries, it didn't really appear in print until nineteen hundred. 150 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 1: And have you ever used done in a Google Ingram search? 151 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 1: I I only started because of this. Yeah, it's really interesting. 152 00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 1: So you can actually like search for a combination of 153 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:02,440 Speaker 1: words compared to words, and it will get ald track 154 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 1: it over time as it appears in uh this you know, 155 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:11,560 Speaker 1: vast online collection of books that Google has digitized. And 156 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 1: starting in eighteen hundred and going to the year two thousand, 157 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 1: this in gram search tracks the use of citizen versus consumer, 158 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 1: and this is in fractions of so starting in eighteen hundred, 159 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:26,840 Speaker 1: citizen is a clear winner, with consumer very very low, 160 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 1: just like a tiny fleck above zero percent. And then 161 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:35,559 Speaker 1: as time goes on, starting in around nineteen ten to 162 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 1: be precise, there is a significant spike in citizen um 163 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:45,199 Speaker 1: and then and as this is going on, consumer is 164 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: kind of rising. Then there's a crossover point in nineteen 165 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 1: fifty six, at which point consumer goes through the roof 166 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:57,560 Speaker 1: UM and ending in two thousand. Consumer well above citizen 167 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 1: in terms of its use in literature. Right. Yeah. And 168 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:06,200 Speaker 1: it's fascinating to see this in laid out in an 169 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: infographic form because Duel is absolutely correct. You can see 170 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:16,200 Speaker 1: the the direct correlation. You can see the switch point 171 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 1: at which people from writers, authors at least started preferring 172 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: the term consumer to the term citizens, and now it's 173 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 1: used about three times as often. Uh. Monger theorizes that 174 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: this happened this, this change in the usage had largely 175 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 1: to do with the rise of progressive politics in the 176 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:39,680 Speaker 1: twentieth century. And here's a quote from Monger quote. The 177 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 1: progressives primarily saw citizens as being helpless, trapped by large forces, 178 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 1: especially corporations, that citizens couldn't deal with. UM And he 179 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: attributes Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal social programs that came about 180 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 1: in the thirties, as well as Lyndon Johnson's Great Society 181 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 1: Effort in the sixties UM as reinforcing the idea that 182 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 1: participation in politics was mostly a way to just get 183 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 1: your share of the pie, you know, get a piece. 184 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 1: So it's it's less of a civic duty, it's less 185 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 1: of a what can I do for my country and 186 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:19,439 Speaker 1: more of a what can my country do for me? Exactly? 187 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 1: And this increasing use of the term consumer doesn't just 188 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: apply to people who are writing about politics. It applies 189 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:35,679 Speaker 1: to politicians themselves. And when we're talking about President Johnson's 190 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 1: Great society stuff in the nineties sixties, we are also 191 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:45,320 Speaker 1: examining the rise of some things that would surprise the 192 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 1: average voter. Marketing, right, marketing, Yes, marketing, which means that 193 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 1: we are going to take a little bit of a 194 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 1: side trail into a man named Edward Burns and Edward 195 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 1: Berdz as know is a is a guy that you 196 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 1: and I have spent a lot of time on in 197 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 1: the past. Yeah, he's sort of the big grand Pappy 198 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 1: of marketing. And this idea of selling things to a 199 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 1: mass audience, including various methods from billboards, magazine articles to 200 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 1: later television think mad Men, you know the television show, Um, 201 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 1: the whole world that's depicted in that the Madison Avenue, 202 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: UM kind of ad agency universe, um. And it was 203 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 1: for sellers of products like breakfast cereals and cars and 204 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 1: anti perch prints all of these and modern things that 205 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: everyone just had to have. Um. And today you know, 206 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 1: we can micro target people's preferences, you know, using these 207 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 1: campaigns in this massive amounts of data that can be 208 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 1: analyzed much much, much more quickly than in the past. Uh. 209 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 1: And now it looks at individual voters attitudes and their 210 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: corresponding behavior, um and can kind of figure out why 211 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 1: might be the best way to actually reach them in 212 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 1: the same way as you know, appealing to somebody about 213 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 1: a particular type of microwave meal. Right, And that that 214 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 1: in itself, this is important for us to note that 215 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 1: in itself is not inherently a bad thing. However, it 216 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 1: is an important thing, and it is crucial that people 217 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 1: be aware of what is happening. To tell you a 218 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 1: little bit about Berne's Oh man, I'm so glad, you asked. Okay, 219 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 1: so Edward Berness, get this nephew of Sigmund Freud true story. 220 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 1: Can't be a coincidence? Be a coincidence? Right? Uh? Edward 221 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 1: Edward Bernese took a lot of psychological concepts and said, well, 222 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 1: how can we hesitate to use the word weaponize, but 223 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 1: maybe maybe apply is a better word. He said, how 224 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: How can we apply these concepts about how the workings 225 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 1: of the human mind and translate them into quantifiable, predictable, 226 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 1: real world results. How can we push people not only 227 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 1: to make the decision we want them to make, but 228 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 1: to make them feel that it is their decision, that 229 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 1: they have agency in this choice. He has done so 230 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 1: much stuff, So I really appreciate that you mentioned the 231 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 1: concept of breakfast, right, so before Edward Burnet's the typical 232 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 1: breakfast in the in the United States would be something 233 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 1: like a cup of coffee and maybe a croissant or 234 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 1: a cross, yes, yes, or a you know, a bagel, 235 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 1: a couple of pieces of toast, maybe some butter. A 236 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 1: bagel and toast. That's a lot of carbs, dude. Yeah, 237 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 1: you put the toast. It's a it's a it's a 238 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 1: toast sandwich. So you get the bagel and put the 239 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 1: toast in between. That doesn't sound very healthy, And that's 240 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,919 Speaker 1: actually kind of the point, because what ended up being 241 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 1: foisted upon the American consumer was this idea of bacon 242 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:13,680 Speaker 1: for breakfast, right, Yes, yeah, Edward Bernese, make no bones 243 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 1: about it. Is the reason that bacon became part of 244 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:22,119 Speaker 1: the American breakfast because without getting too deep into it, 245 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:25,359 Speaker 1: here's what happened. In the nineteen twenties, Edward Bernese was 246 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:29,360 Speaker 1: approached by a company called the beach Nut Packing Company. 247 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:32,959 Speaker 1: They're the people who made beach nut gum at the time, right, 248 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:35,239 Speaker 1: But they did a lot of other stuff, and they 249 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:37,200 Speaker 1: had a lot of other concerns, and one of the 250 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:41,479 Speaker 1: big concerns was pork. Edward, they asked the guy, we 251 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:44,400 Speaker 1: need to increase demands. We have all this trash meat 252 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:47,640 Speaker 1: laying around. You know, how do we uh again foisted 253 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: on the American public, right, exactly just so? And he thought, well, 254 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: we could do the typical sort of advertisement at the time, 255 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 1: where we could just have somebody be like, hey, I'm 256 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:02,119 Speaker 1: cool and where suit and get a nice die and 257 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:05,359 Speaker 1: like bacon you should too, And that was, you know, 258 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,440 Speaker 1: that was the approach that advertising used. But he did 259 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:12,640 Speaker 1: something very different and he said, well, let me let 260 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 1: me conduct a quote unquote poll of doctors medical experts, 261 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 1: and let me let me twist the questions in such 262 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:25,399 Speaker 1: a way that they will all end up agreeing or 263 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:30,120 Speaker 1: appearing to agree that bacon is not only good for you, 264 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 1: but should be eaten by any person with half a 265 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:37,200 Speaker 1: concern about their health early in the morning and give 266 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:40,680 Speaker 1: them energy and its substantial And that's the thing. It worked. 267 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 1: It not only did it work, but it continues to 268 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:47,199 Speaker 1: work today. Edward Bernese, who could be the subject of 269 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 1: his own show, right, he went on to uh tie 270 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:56,200 Speaker 1: smoking tobacco with women's suffrage. He went on to help 271 00:18:56,280 --> 00:19:01,640 Speaker 1: support propaganda pushing the American public, citizens or consumers, whatever 272 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 1: you want to call them, into supporting a coup in 273 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 1: South America. And he continues to influence things today. This 274 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:15,199 Speaker 1: is one of the correlations, one of the one of 275 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 1: the points at which people stopped thinking about the average 276 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:25,199 Speaker 1: voter as a citizen and started thinking about them as consumers. Well, 277 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 1: it's the way, you know, politicians have to essentially market 278 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 1: themselves uh and and and dress up their platforms in 279 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 1: such a way that appeals to different voting bases. Uh 280 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 1: and A lot of it is based on entirely based 281 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 1: on rhetoric, which you could, you know, kind of equate 282 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:46,480 Speaker 1: to something like ad copy where it's like, sure, it's 283 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 1: technically true, and it's it's backed up by science or like, 284 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: you know, facts, but at the end of the day, 285 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 1: it's this like packaged curated version of the truth, and 286 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 1: that is the way things are today, and the government itself, 287 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:06,359 Speaker 1: in fact, is is actually judged as if it were 288 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 1: a business, a consumer business. The American Customer Satisfaction Index 289 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:16,200 Speaker 1: actually rates the federal government on how people feel about 290 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 1: their interactions with how how they feel you know what 291 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,400 Speaker 1: I'm saying. So there's Bernet's at work right now, and 292 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 1: it actually got a sixty eight percent positive rating in 293 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 1: twenty which was up from sixty the previous year. So um, 294 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:31,399 Speaker 1: I'm gonna have be interested to know how how that 295 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 1: ranks today, Yeah, and the methodology behind it. People who 296 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 1: have a problem with this interchangeable use of citizen and consumer, uh, 297 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 1: They argue that there are fundamental differences between the two 298 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:52,160 Speaker 1: roles in society and that they should not be confused. 299 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:55,119 Speaker 1: So how about this. I want to outline some of 300 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 1: these proposed differences and see what you think. Sure, okay, 301 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:04,119 Speaker 1: So is are an issue of morality. You know, earlier 302 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 1: we mentioned the concept of doing stuff for other people 303 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 1: for the greater good versus doing something for one's self. 304 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:17,359 Speaker 1: So one of the proposed differences would be that the 305 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:21,399 Speaker 1: job of any consumer is to always choose what works 306 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:27,360 Speaker 1: best for them in the marketplace, regardless of any other considerations. Totally, right, 307 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:31,679 Speaker 1: that's what I do. I think that's that's also the 308 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,440 Speaker 1: human condition, though, isn't it. You know? Yeah, But that 309 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 1: that there in lies the issue with this whole notion 310 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 1: of like being pulled away from the idea of being 311 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 1: part of a whole or being a member of a 312 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:46,119 Speaker 1: team and going to a much more self serving attitude 313 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 1: that's kind of codified and bolstered by the use of 314 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:51,880 Speaker 1: these these these words and the distinctions that they sort 315 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 1: of imply. I guess, right. Yeah, So then if a 316 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 1: by by this understanding, if this difference is true, then 317 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: by virtue of voting, a consumer is saying what will 318 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:08,919 Speaker 1: make me better directly now, whereas the citizen would be saying, 319 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 1: what can I do to improve the world conditions for 320 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:19,440 Speaker 1: everyone from my neighbors? Yeah, yeah, like a rising tide 321 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 1: carries all vestal, and a good citizen then would be, 322 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 1: in their own way kind of kind of heroic or 323 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:30,199 Speaker 1: very moral, that's what it sounds like, right, And a 324 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 1: good consumer would be getting the best deal. There's another difference, 325 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 1: which is that citizens are comfortable with a degree of uncertainty. 326 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 1: I'm doing my best to help the group, the community 327 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 1: of the nation, et cetera. I'm not sure how it's 328 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,360 Speaker 1: gonna work out, but I know my intentions are what 329 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 1: I believe to be good. Whereas a consumer says, you know, 330 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,120 Speaker 1: if I'm if I'm paying for this service, whether that's 331 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:01,640 Speaker 1: through time, whether that's through money, whether that's through exchange 332 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 1: of materials, then I need to be certain that this 333 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 1: transaction occurs, you know. So with with this idea, um, 334 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: there's the simplication that a citizen knows that society has 335 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 1: uh what HR departments around the world called areas of opportunity. God, 336 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 1: do you remember that one? Do you know how much 337 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 1: I love these corporate terms? Yes? Yes, synergy synergy is 338 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:34,440 Speaker 1: their synergy and uh and cadences that's a new one, 339 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 1: making the rounds. Well, you know, the ideal holds up though, 340 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 1: because the concept then would be that you and I 341 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 1: and everyone who has a vote understands that we can 342 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 1: play a part in improving society and whatever way we 343 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:53,680 Speaker 1: think it should be improved, right, and that these problems 344 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 1: will not be fixed themselves. And then the on the 345 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: other side, the concept of a consumer would be that 346 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 1: someone expects to purchase essentially a product or a service, 347 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:12,400 Speaker 1: and that the people providing that product or service it's 348 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,600 Speaker 1: on them to fix stuff. Right, So I voted for 349 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 1: you just do the thing, you know what I mean? 350 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 1: And uh, we we know that this is a very 351 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,359 Speaker 1: very contentious thing. Well, let's go through a little business. 352 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:29,399 Speaker 1: This is a ridiculous history. Um, let's just talk a 353 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 1: little bit about the history of the idea of humans 354 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 1: as consumers. There's a fantastic article by Frank Trentman in 355 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 1: the Atlantic that has a couple of great quotes from 356 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 1: the famous American thinker Adam Smith, one of which is 357 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 1: consumption is the soul, end and purpose of all production, 358 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 1: which was from his treatise I guess you could call 359 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 1: it The Wealth of Nations from seventeen seventy six. That's 360 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 1: a pretty famous quote. A lesser known quote from him 361 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:58,400 Speaker 1: that really sums up this whole idea comes from seventeen 362 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 1: fifty nine, The Theory of Morals Sentiments Um, where he 363 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 1: kind of really hones in on the as Trentman puts it, 364 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: the social and psychological impulses that cause us to want 365 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 1: to get a bunch of stuff, little knickknacks, Patty Wax gadgets. Um. 366 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: And this quote again from Smith does a really good 367 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 1: job of summing all that up. He observed that people 368 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:33,160 Speaker 1: wanted to quote stuff their pockets with little conveniences and 369 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 1: then buying coats with more pockets to carry even more 370 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,920 Speaker 1: by themselves. Tweezer cases, elaborate snuff boxes, and other bobbles 371 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 1: might not have much use, but Smith pointed out what 372 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 1: mattered was that people looked at them as means of happiness. Um. 373 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 1: And he goes on to say that it was in 374 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:55,360 Speaker 1: people's imaginations that these objects became part of a harmonious 375 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: system and made the pleasures of wealth grand and beautiful 376 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:06,359 Speaker 1: and noble. And even you know, ancient Greek thinkers philosophers 377 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:11,440 Speaker 1: from you know, Plato to St. Augustine Um, they kind 378 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 1: of condemned the pursuit of of stuff as as being 379 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 1: inherently wicked and self serving. Um. So there is this 380 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:25,640 Speaker 1: history of the idea of being a citizen as being 381 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 1: much more important, and if it feels like throughout history, 382 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: obviously there there is that selfish impulse. But as a whole, 383 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:38,360 Speaker 1: civilization and societies have largely maintained because of this notion 384 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,199 Speaker 1: of you know, the whole is more important than the 385 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:44,480 Speaker 1: individual parts, and that we're all banding together to make 386 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:48,920 Speaker 1: a better life for everyone. Yeah. Right, and this leads 387 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,920 Speaker 1: us to something a pretty interesting theory, uh that you've 388 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 1: probably heard of, which is the tragedy of the commons. 389 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,120 Speaker 1: And the tragedy of the commons is this economic theory 390 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:03,679 Speaker 1: that says, Uh, if you're in a shared resource system, right, so, 391 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 1: you're in a community where everybody has like a common 392 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:13,159 Speaker 1: good it's called water, air, nine LPs. Who knows, just 393 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:15,879 Speaker 1: like it's something for the people the way that you 394 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:22,359 Speaker 1: and I typically order friess. Yeah. Um. The idea is 395 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:27,240 Speaker 1: that when individual users are acting independently according to their 396 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:31,639 Speaker 1: own self interests, they will tend to behave in ways 397 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:39,200 Speaker 1: that deplete or spoil those common resources because everybody, everybody 398 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:43,199 Speaker 1: wants their piece of the pie and would prefer not 399 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 1: to have to help create the pie. Right. And obviously, 400 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:55,679 Speaker 1: so many people have argued uh, complex ideological questions based 401 00:27:55,720 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 1: on how to address this dilemma of individual wills trying 402 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 1: to improve society, to take a line from the Simpsons 403 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:11,720 Speaker 1: to embigen society or two improve themselves, even if such 404 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:17,479 Speaker 1: a thing might have dangerous consequences, right, or unforeseen consequences 405 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:22,679 Speaker 1: down the road. And it might sound might sound, folks, 406 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 1: as if Noel and I are dwelling non semantics, but 407 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:31,640 Speaker 1: we are not, because it turns out that science backs 408 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 1: this up. In a two thousand twelve study in the 409 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 1: journal Psychological Science UH, they found that choice of words 410 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 1: can exert a subtle influence upon how we see ourselves, 411 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 1: which then you know, naturally influences how we behave. So 412 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 1: in one part of the study, people who answered a 413 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:55,960 Speaker 1: quote consumer response survey tended to express more materialistic, self 414 00:28:55,960 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 1: centered values. People who did a survey that was called 415 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 1: a citizen survey tended to behave in a more a 416 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: less selfish way. And another part of the same survey, 417 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 1: the researchers looked at subjects with gave them a hypothetical 418 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 1: situation where people um had to join together and share 419 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 1: water from a well, and they were labeled as either 420 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 1: consumers or citizens. And the members of the study that 421 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 1: got the consumer label tended to be completely distrustful of 422 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 1: their cohorts and just didn't want to share the water. 423 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 1: They just were a little crotchety about it, and they 424 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:38,719 Speaker 1: did not feel as though they were on a team 425 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 1: or in partnership with the other subjects and just felt 426 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 1: overall less tied to or responsible for the experience, and 427 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 1: you know, well being honestly of their compatriots, as opposed 428 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 1: to those who were labeled citizens, who felt just the opposite. Right, right, 429 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 1: And now we we if we are called a name 430 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 1: or another, it tends to affect our behavior. Now we 431 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 1: see this article by Maurice Goldman becomes even more important. 432 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,160 Speaker 1: I don't want to say insidious, but I do want 433 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 1: to say important, because you know, on some level it 434 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 1: might feel I don't know, condescending or diminutive to say, oh, 435 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 1: you are not so smart, right, you are easily influenced, 436 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 1: right if somebody, if somebody calls me a name, that 437 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 1: shouldn't influence my behavior already, but apparently it does. Apparently 438 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 1: we are a little bit easier to steer than we 439 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,959 Speaker 1: would like to think. And this goes back to the 440 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 1: Bernese thing, right, the idea of a of a citizen 441 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 1: versus a consumer in terms of active versus passive roles. 442 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 1: Did you know that the I'm sure you've heard the 443 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 1: use of the term consumption um to refer to tuberculosis, 444 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,960 Speaker 1: you know, so, I mean it was definitely had very 445 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 1: very negative connotations of going back to the Atlantic article 446 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 1: from Frank Trentmany as a section where he talks about 447 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 1: some of the history of the term consumption uh and 448 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 1: the as he calls it, the heavy burden that it carried. 449 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 1: And it was originally from the term the Latin term consumer, 450 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 1: which first presented itself in French in the twelfth century 451 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:25,440 Speaker 1: and then into English and other European languages later. And 452 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,520 Speaker 1: of course it meant as I said, with the etymological 453 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 1: um origins earlier, using up wasting kind of implied of 454 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:37,200 Speaker 1: food or any other um consumable, I guess, for lack 455 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:39,960 Speaker 1: of a better term um. But like I said, the 456 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 1: idea of tuberculosis or wasting disease being called consumption because 457 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 1: it had this inherently like it just eats you up. 458 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 1: And that was very much a sign of being irresponsible 459 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,160 Speaker 1: and not looking out for the greater good of your 460 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 1: community or family, what have you, not being a good citizen. 461 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 1: And we would be remiss if we didn't just mention 462 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:06,520 Speaker 1: for a second everyone's favorite fictional consumptive, which is Val 463 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 1: Kilmer playing Doc Holiday in Tombstone Bloody Rack. Yeah, oh man, 464 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 1: what does he say, who's who Huckleberry, I'm your Huckleberty, 465 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 1: I'm your h You're my Huckleberry romance, romance for the 466 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 1: ages and history for the pages, which rhymes but doesn't 467 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:38,040 Speaker 1: really make sense if you think about it. So. Josh 468 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 1: Passek is an assistant professor of Communications studies at the 469 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 1: University of Michigan, and he he draws some conclusions based 470 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 1: on this shift. He says, it seems to underscore a 471 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: shift away from viewing Americans is having responsibility on our 472 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,840 Speaker 1: political system and toward a more individualist view of what 473 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:02,240 Speaker 1: it means to be a marry again. So, in his mind, 474 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:04,760 Speaker 1: the role of a citizen is more active and the 475 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 1: role of a consumer is more passive. And in his mind, 476 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:11,960 Speaker 1: these are two different things, right, They're not synonyms. He says, 477 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 1: your job as an American citizen requires that you fulfill 478 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 1: key democratic norms such as being informed, deliberating about political issues, 479 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 1: and participating in civic and political life. As an American consumer, 480 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:27,960 Speaker 1: he says, your actions are relevant only to the extent 481 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 1: that they respond to economic incentives. The responsibility to be 482 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 1: engaged and participatory is not your own, but instead depends 483 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:39,200 Speaker 1: upon a system that is oriented to bring you in 484 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 1: unpack that for us. Ben Okay, sure, I would love 485 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:48,360 Speaker 1: to uh so again. The idea, the idea of citizenship 486 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 1: as a responsibility, right, like, I don't if you're a citizen, 487 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 1: you're not just supposed to show up and vote. You're 488 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 1: supposed to put some research time into it, right and 489 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 1: be be aware. And you know, let's I mean not 490 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,720 Speaker 1: for nothing, It's true that most people don't know their 491 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:08,320 Speaker 1: congressional district. Yeah, I mean, if I'm being honest, I 492 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:10,839 Speaker 1: voted the other day and there were a whole lot 493 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 1: of names on the ballot that I was not familiar with. 494 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:15,960 Speaker 1: There were some races that I had followed very closely, 495 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:18,279 Speaker 1: and I knew what I was signing up for. But 496 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:21,480 Speaker 1: you know, it's very difficult to be completely informed about 497 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,600 Speaker 1: every aspect of the political process. But I guess what 498 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:27,200 Speaker 1: the takeaway here is is that you know, just you 499 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,320 Speaker 1: got to try to do your homework and then consider 500 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:33,880 Speaker 1: beyond just you know, your personal stake, what might be 501 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 1: good for your entire community. Because you know, with names 502 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 1: that didn recognize on the ballot, if I had voted 503 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,960 Speaker 1: for somebody just out of sheer, you know, randomness, what 504 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 1: what if I accidentally voted for a monster or voted 505 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,360 Speaker 1: to keep an incumbent in power that had done bad 506 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:51,719 Speaker 1: things for the community and then needed to be replaced. 507 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 1: You know. So, uh, if if I had gone in 508 00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:58,319 Speaker 1: with that consumer mentality about what's good for me, you know, 509 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:01,280 Speaker 1: and and maybe I'm guilty of that, in a certain sense, 510 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:05,319 Speaker 1: I would only know what directly impacted me, whereas if 511 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 1: I had gone in with much more of a you know, citizen, 512 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 1: good citizen attitude than maybe I would have thought about 513 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 1: more what would affect areas that don't even affect me directly. 514 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:17,719 Speaker 1: But you know, it's a it's a dilemma, and we 515 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,759 Speaker 1: are we are talking about the influence of behavior. Want 516 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:24,799 Speaker 1: to be very clear that we're not We're not a 517 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:28,839 Speaker 1: show that's going to like lecture people about politics. Yeah 518 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:31,279 Speaker 1: for us, this is for us. This is a dilemma though. 519 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:34,319 Speaker 1: It's a dilemma, and it's kind of a thought experiment. Yeah, yeah, Yeah, 520 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:36,800 Speaker 1: that's a good way to say it, because the question 521 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 1: then becomes, you know, is one uh somehow better than 522 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:44,000 Speaker 1: the other or they just different. I would say that 523 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,880 Speaker 1: they're different. I would say that everybody has played the 524 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,480 Speaker 1: part of a citizen. Everybody's played the part of a 525 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,080 Speaker 1: consumer at the same time. You know, you're not going 526 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:56,640 Speaker 1: into uh rbs for instance, who is not a sponsor 527 00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:58,839 Speaker 1: of the show of just thinking like different is good 528 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 1: that he's still around. Yeah, they're still getting funny commercials. 529 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,440 Speaker 1: But like, you know, nobody's walking into Arby's and saying, 530 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 1: you know, at the at the soda fountain or at 531 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,560 Speaker 1: the little ketchup stand, no one's saying, like, what can 532 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:15,400 Speaker 1: I do to make this ketchup stand better for everyone 533 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 1: who comes after me? Yeah? And you know, speaking to 534 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:21,640 Speaker 1: uh past ex quote about you know, as an American consumer, 535 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,280 Speaker 1: your actions are relevant only to the extent they respond 536 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:29,040 Speaker 1: to economic incentives, meaning and sometimes those incentives are just 537 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:33,720 Speaker 1: personal fulfillment and you know pleasure. Uh and your jobs 538 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:35,880 Speaker 1: not to read state you already said, Ben, but your 539 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,520 Speaker 1: job as an American citizen requires you fulfill key democratic 540 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,920 Speaker 1: norms just being informed and deliberating about political issues. So 541 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:45,120 Speaker 1: the idea that uh, there is this gray area or 542 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:47,360 Speaker 1: this kind of like fusion between the notion of a 543 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:52,840 Speaker 1: citizen and a consumer is potentially problematic for people making 544 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 1: choices in in elections that actually help others or that 545 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,399 Speaker 1: if that affect the greater good, everyone's just voting for 546 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:04,080 Speaker 1: you know what, we'll do good for themselves. And that 547 00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:08,719 Speaker 1: also plays into how politicians market themselves, you know, right right, 548 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:14,160 Speaker 1: the same the same techniques that Edward Bernese pioneered are 549 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:19,239 Speaker 1: now present not only in advertising, but are present in 550 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:22,040 Speaker 1: a very real way in the political sphere. I gotta 551 00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:25,960 Speaker 1: tell you, man, did you ever did you did you 552 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:29,880 Speaker 1: ever watch c SPAN? I mean, if if there's something 553 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,560 Speaker 1: really crucial on, um, But no, I have not not 554 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,439 Speaker 1: just watch it like my grandpapa used to them. Yeah, 555 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:38,520 Speaker 1: I used to. I used to. Um. I used to 556 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:42,919 Speaker 1: watch c SPAN with my grandmother as well. Um, when 557 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,680 Speaker 1: Golden Girls wasn't on. She loved Golden Girls. Hehaw and 558 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:48,880 Speaker 1: c SPAN beautiful woman. You know it seems like a 559 00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 1: good mix. And uh and uh. One of the things 560 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:56,640 Speaker 1: that got me was years ago we were watching c 561 00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:01,960 Speaker 1: SPAN at her house and uh, a congress person was 562 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:06,640 Speaker 1: referring to a a bill they were trying to pass 563 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:10,680 Speaker 1: as a product. And then they said, we're going to 564 00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:14,480 Speaker 1: get this product out at the end of this time frame, 565 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:17,560 Speaker 1: and this product is going to you know, be great 566 00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:22,960 Speaker 1: for companies, all interested parties. Stakeholders, and I didn't understand 567 00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:27,319 Speaker 1: the term, because why would you call something like that 568 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:32,600 Speaker 1: a product. You're selling it, You're selling it to your constituents. 569 00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:35,040 Speaker 1: And this guy, Frank Tripman, who wrote the article from 570 00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:37,080 Speaker 1: The Atlantic that I was talking about a little bit 571 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:39,720 Speaker 1: um is a professor of history at the University of London, 572 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:42,040 Speaker 1: and he wrote a fantastic book called Empire of Things 573 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:44,640 Speaker 1: How he became a world of consumers from the fifteenth 574 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:47,879 Speaker 1: century to the twenty one um and he thinks that 575 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:53,719 Speaker 1: the blurred distinction between these two cohorts, which ultimately have 576 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:56,120 Speaker 1: become kind of the same thing, consumer and citizen, make 577 00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:59,440 Speaker 1: it really hard for people to come together to solve problems, 578 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:01,759 Speaker 1: which is a sin. Actually, what I was trying to 579 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:03,719 Speaker 1: get out, we're both trying to get at ben Uh 580 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,360 Speaker 1: And this quote, I think really sums it all up nicely. Quote. 581 00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:08,879 Speaker 1: Not all consumers see the world in the same way, 582 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 1: and hence concerted action is very difficult. That's what I 583 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:14,520 Speaker 1: was trying to get at. Where you know, when you 584 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:18,040 Speaker 1: have a politician that's marketing themselves to a particular voter base, 585 00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:22,440 Speaker 1: and the um the desires of that voter base are 586 00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:26,880 Speaker 1: kind of a conflagration of like different, uh sort of 587 00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:29,600 Speaker 1: self serving desires. So it's very difficult to like pick 588 00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:32,680 Speaker 1: out a platform or a thing or like to appeal 589 00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:35,640 Speaker 1: to all of these different you know angles and get 590 00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:41,080 Speaker 1: elected kind of requires some weird backwards logic and convoluted thinking, 591 00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:45,080 Speaker 1: you know, especially when so many of those interests might 592 00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:51,000 Speaker 1: be contradictory. Exactly right here we are, here, we here, 593 00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:54,319 Speaker 1: we are. But history doesn't stop here. I have to 594 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:59,840 Speaker 1: wonder what future historians will make of this shift, which 595 00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:06,319 Speaker 1: again occurred without my knowledge at all. Like I did 596 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:10,319 Speaker 1: not notice other than my spider sense tingling when I 597 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:15,200 Speaker 1: hurt things laws referred to as products. It's totally washooshed 598 00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:18,239 Speaker 1: over my head. Man, I don't know. It's a little 599 00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:20,640 Speaker 1: insidious though, right, It kind of happens. It just sort 600 00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:23,680 Speaker 1: of kind of creeps in, you know, without you even realize. Again, 601 00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:26,520 Speaker 1: so are we citizens? Are we consumers? I think it's 602 00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:27,960 Speaker 1: a it's a choice we have to make. I mean, 603 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,400 Speaker 1: obviously we're consumers when it comes to like, you know, 604 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:34,680 Speaker 1: I like buying stuff. I like, you know, nice clothes 605 00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:37,440 Speaker 1: and things like that. But when you start integrating that 606 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:41,799 Speaker 1: into the political process and how you vote as though 607 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:45,680 Speaker 1: it we're spending money and as though you're being marketed to. 608 00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:49,240 Speaker 1: That's problematic, I think. And it's an interesting shift in history, 609 00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:52,960 Speaker 1: and it's more than a little ridiculous. It is, it 610 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:56,919 Speaker 1: is more than a bit ridiculous. We hope that you 611 00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:02,600 Speaker 1: find this dilemma, lend this this interesting differentiation as fascinating 612 00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:06,040 Speaker 1: as we do. And we'd like to hear your thoughts. 613 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:09,680 Speaker 1: So please write into us and let us know if 614 00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:13,120 Speaker 1: you think this is a a big deal, if you 615 00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:18,359 Speaker 1: think this is just relative, relatively small matter of semantics. Uh, 616 00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:22,280 Speaker 1: And most importantly, let us know if you have found 617 00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:27,640 Speaker 1: other linguistic shifts in your own experience, and let us 618 00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:30,520 Speaker 1: know what you think the implications of those might be. 619 00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:33,280 Speaker 1: You can write to Noel and I at Ridiculous at 620 00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:37,080 Speaker 1: I heart meat dot com. But that's all. You can 621 00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:38,799 Speaker 1: find us on the internet to. Yeah, we're on the 622 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:41,799 Speaker 1: social media. We've got a Facebook page Ridiculous History. Just 623 00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:44,960 Speaker 1: google that and and give us a like. And also, 624 00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,279 Speaker 1: if you dig the show, please check us out on 625 00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:50,520 Speaker 1: iTunes and write us a nice review. That helps kind 626 00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:52,480 Speaker 1: of boost the show and the algorithm and on that 627 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:54,560 Speaker 1: and hopefully more people can discover it. Yeah, because we like, 628 00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:55,719 Speaker 1: you know, we like doing the show and we'd like 629 00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:57,919 Speaker 1: to continue doing it. So thanks for joining us for 630 00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:00,759 Speaker 1: this episode, and we hope to see you next time 631 00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:11,799 Speaker 1: on Ridiculous History. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, 632 00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:14,520 Speaker 1: visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever 633 00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:16,200 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.