WEBVTT - Our Nuclear Present 0:00:11.720 --> 0:00:14.400 Good morning, Keeps, and welcome to wok F Daily with 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:18.200 me your girl Danielle Moody recording from the Home Bunker. 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:25.919 Both Happy Monday. It is a good day. I will 0:00:25.920 --> 0:00:29.480 say this. Headed it to the weekend feeling really great 0:00:29.720 --> 0:00:34.200 following Joe Biden's State of the Union, So I wanted 0:00:34.200 --> 0:00:40.400 to start out today with giving you my thoughts on 0:00:41.240 --> 0:00:45.840 how the State of the Union shaped up. So first off, 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:50.320 you know, I will say that Joe Biden fucking delivered. 0:00:51.200 --> 0:00:55.320 And you know that I am somebody who does not 0:00:55.440 --> 0:00:58.480 mince words when it comes to my critique of the 0:00:58.480 --> 0:01:02.880 Biden administration of Joe Biden, and I will tell you 0:01:03.240 --> 0:01:06.720 that the State of the Union was a slam fucking 0:01:06.800 --> 0:01:14.280 dunk one because the expectations are set so low. The 0:01:14.640 --> 0:01:19.760 Right has done such a great job of creating this 0:01:19.920 --> 0:01:24.920 false narrative around sleepy Joe and unprepared Joe and stumbling 0:01:25.040 --> 0:01:29.560 Joe that all he has to do is, you know, 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:35.080 come with some fire, and he came with so much fire. 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:37.839 Now these motherfuckers are out here talking about, oh, he's 0:01:37.840 --> 0:01:41.320 on adderall, Oh he's on some cocktail of drugs. Nah, 0:01:41.360 --> 0:01:44.039 my friends, because the only person that was doing a 0:01:44.040 --> 0:01:47.880 bunch of cocktails and drugs was in the Trump administration, 0:01:48.040 --> 0:01:52.000 and that is by reporting from inside of that administration 0:01:52.080 --> 0:01:54.880 about how you know, the adderall the coke, and all 0:01:54.920 --> 0:01:59.440 of those other things just flowed like a river. Nonetheless, 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:05.160 Joe Biden came with it. He started out talking about democracy, 0:02:05.320 --> 0:02:09.200 talking about freedoms. He came for the Supreme Court directly, 0:02:09.560 --> 0:02:12.840 which no president has ever done, and rightfully fucking sew 0:02:12.960 --> 0:02:15.280 because their numbers not like they give a shit because 0:02:15.280 --> 0:02:16.760 they have a job for life, so what do they 0:02:16.760 --> 0:02:19.400 care what people think about them? But their poll numbers 0:02:19.400 --> 0:02:22.160 are in the fucking garbage right, just like the decisions 0:02:22.200 --> 0:02:24.440 that they have made. And he came for them directly 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:26.920 and said that you overturned Roe v. Wade, But you 0:02:27.000 --> 0:02:30.480 know what, the women who have political power and are 0:02:30.760 --> 0:02:33.320 more than half of this electorate, they will have their 0:02:33.400 --> 0:02:37.280 voices heard. He came directly for Republicans. And I loved 0:02:37.360 --> 0:02:40.160 the fact. I love the fact that he kept referring 0:02:40.160 --> 0:02:43.720 to Donald Trump throughout his entire speech as his predecessor 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:47.200 and said that his predecessor and people inside of this 0:02:47.360 --> 0:02:51.000 chamber right with everything that he said, because no, let's 0:02:51.000 --> 0:02:53.720 not get it twisted. It is not just Donald Trump 0:02:54.080 --> 0:02:56.240 that is trump Ism. It is all of them that 0:02:56.280 --> 0:03:00.360 are inside of that chamber that could not possibly find 0:03:00.680 --> 0:03:03.920 a moment within them to cheer for clean water, to 0:03:04.120 --> 0:03:08.280 cheer for lower drug prescription prices, to cheer for lower 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:13.080 taxes for the working class right, to cheer for vaccinations 0:03:13.400 --> 0:03:17.800 that you know, had Americans stop dropping dead from COVID, 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:23.919 like when you looked at the split screen. In terms 0:03:23.919 --> 0:03:27.200 of what Joe Biden was delivering, the applause that was 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:30.440 coming out of the Democrats, and the things that Republicans 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:36.000 were sitting on their hands about, I mean, democracy progress. 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:40.960 They couldn't even clap for fucking shrinkflation right and ending that. 0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:42.960 And you know, there are some folks that will say, 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:45.880 you know, oh, they think that this is something small 0:03:45.920 --> 0:03:48.440 for Joe Biden to have been paying attention to the 0:03:48.480 --> 0:03:50.800 amount of chips in a bag. It is not small 0:03:50.840 --> 0:03:53.119 for the average American person that is trying to feed 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:56.600 themselves in their fucking families. When you're going into stores 0:03:56.600 --> 0:03:59.200 and you're paying the same exact price but you were 0:03:59.200 --> 0:04:03.600 getting less, you are getting cheated, right. So, whether it's 0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:06.920 with the junk fies that everyone deals with with credit cards, 0:04:07.000 --> 0:04:10.600 whether it's with strinflation in terms of the packaging, right, 0:04:11.040 --> 0:04:14.080 This administration gives a shit about whether or not you're 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:17.839 being cheated by corporations that are making record fucking profits. 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:22.520 So it was very clear that Joe Biden was laying 0:04:22.680 --> 0:04:29.520 out the stark binary contrast between him and Democrats and 0:04:29.800 --> 0:04:33.200 Donald Trump and the Republican Party. And if you are 0:04:33.240 --> 0:04:39.280 a person that cares about bodily autonomy, about immigration, about 0:04:39.640 --> 0:04:43.720 the plight of the people in Palestine, about you know, 0:04:43.839 --> 0:04:46.160 the plight of the people in Ukraine, and whether or 0:04:46.200 --> 0:04:48.799 not Putin is going to be given a fucking red 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:52.520 carpet and say do whatever the hell you want. Right, 0:04:52.600 --> 0:04:57.200 you have nations joining NATO because of the actions that 0:04:57.240 --> 0:04:59.720 Putin has taken and because of the fear that they 0:04:59.800 --> 0:05:04.159 have of another Trump administration and losing the United States 0:05:04.200 --> 0:05:08.640 is an ally. So for me, Joe Biden delivered on 0:05:08.760 --> 0:05:11.840 every single point that he needed to deliver on, and 0:05:11.920 --> 0:05:14.800 he did it with fire. And he also did it 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:17.599 in a way that wasn't scripted, because he went off 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:22.279 script a number of times. And that was also brilliant 0:05:22.440 --> 0:05:26.320 because you know what that shows mental agility, which is 0:05:26.400 --> 0:05:30.240 what we know Donald Trump does not fucking have. So 0:05:30.680 --> 0:05:35.440 bravo to Biden to the team, because it gave me 0:05:36.200 --> 0:05:39.080 the energy that I have been missing, the ability to 0:05:39.160 --> 0:05:41.960 go out right not only on these shows but on 0:05:42.120 --> 0:05:46.239 TV to say this is the candidate that we need. Look, folks, 0:05:46.520 --> 0:05:51.280 I know where we are in terms of the humanitarian 0:05:51.320 --> 0:05:55.400 crisis in Gaza. I also know that if Donald Trump 0:05:55.480 --> 0:05:59.960 becomes president, they will bulldoze what is left of God 0:06:00.480 --> 0:06:03.320 and what is left of the Palestinian people, and there 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:10.360 will be no hope for them whatsoever. So while the 0:06:10.400 --> 0:06:13.960 situation is absolutely bleak and you will never hear me 0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:16.720 minimize it, and I speak out on it all the time, 0:06:17.160 --> 0:06:21.160 the situation as it pertains to our democracy and holding 0:06:21.200 --> 0:06:25.520 on to it right just got a renewed vitality that 0:06:25.600 --> 0:06:29.440 it has needed. I think that the American people know 0:06:30.440 --> 0:06:35.400 what is at stake and are ready right to exercise 0:06:35.480 --> 0:06:37.200 their power and their vote. Now, let me take a 0:06:37.240 --> 0:06:40.599 moment and talk about the Stepford fucking wife that they 0:06:40.640 --> 0:06:46.000 put up to give the rebuttal Dear God, this is 0:06:46.040 --> 0:06:49.320 what the Republican people think about women. And I don't 0:06:49.320 --> 0:06:51.560 want folks to get all caught up in like the 0:06:51.720 --> 0:06:56.360 joking about this Stepford wife Katie Britt. But the reality 0:06:56.520 --> 0:06:58.960 is is that this is what the feminization of white 0:06:59.000 --> 0:07:04.200 supremacy looks like. Like they offer up their toxic strong man, right, 0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:09.640 and then they offer up their small soft right like 0:07:10.280 --> 0:07:18.400 meager woman, and this is the destructive pair in America. 0:07:18.600 --> 0:07:22.760 She was giving off a clarion call to white suburban 0:07:22.800 --> 0:07:25.760 women and say, don't you want this nice kitchen, this 0:07:25.920 --> 0:07:29.400 diamond cross, right, Just stand by your man and be 0:07:29.480 --> 0:07:34.160 a good wife. Right, don't seek too much, don't do 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:40.560 too much, even though she is a senator, right, So 0:07:40.960 --> 0:07:44.520 I want folks to not get it lost on them 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:50.520 what it is that the Republican Party is presenting and 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:54.760 how it was that Joe Biden was able to respond. 0:07:55.400 --> 0:07:59.960 Coming up next in UH Today's episode is my interview 0:08:00.520 --> 0:08:05.640 with science journalists and the author of Countdown The Blinding 0:08:05.680 --> 0:08:10.840 Future of Nuclear Weapons, Sarah's Skulls. You know, often when 0:08:10.880 --> 0:08:14.520 we talk about nuclear weapons, we are talking about them 0:08:14.920 --> 0:08:18.200 in the past tense, right. We are talking about them 0:08:18.400 --> 0:08:21.600 as it pertains to the Cold War and World War. 0:08:22.240 --> 0:08:25.880 But we're not talking about what is being done right 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:30.040 now in this country and in other countries, as we 0:08:30.320 --> 0:08:34.400 are still in the midst of an arms race, and 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:39.079 so my conversation with Sarah, while terrifying, was also incredibly 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:43.400 eye opening. And her book, Countdown the Blinding Future of 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:53.160 Nuclear Weapons is out now, folks. I am very excited 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:57.120 to welcome to WOKF Daily for the very first time 0:08:57.679 --> 0:09:02.080 the author of the book Countdown the Blinding Future of 0:09:02.280 --> 0:09:08.640 Nuclear Weapons, Sarah Skulls, who is a science journalist. And 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:13.800 in this book, you are talking, Sarah about nuclear weapons. 0:09:14.040 --> 0:09:17.839 And I think that what is interesting is that oftentimes 0:09:17.880 --> 0:09:22.600 when we talk about nuclear weapons, we go back in time. Right, 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:26.640 we're talking about the Cold War, We're talking about dropping 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:30.520 the bomb in World War Two. We're talking about these 0:09:31.720 --> 0:09:37.120 historic events. What we don't often talk about is the 0:09:37.280 --> 0:09:42.040 nuclear proliferation that is still happening today and how that 0:09:42.200 --> 0:09:44.120 is affecting our day to day lives. So, can you 0:09:44.160 --> 0:09:48.600 talk to us about why you decided to write this 0:09:48.800 --> 0:09:51.840 book and why it's important for us to pay attention? 0:09:53.080 --> 0:09:56.000 I mean, are we in the midst of a countdown 0:09:56.400 --> 0:09:58.280 like the title of your book suggest. 0:09:59.520 --> 0:10:01.600 Yeah. I mean those are all great questions, and they 0:10:01.640 --> 0:10:05.319 are the questions that ultimately led me to write the book. 0:10:05.440 --> 0:10:08.280 You know, I think I largely grew up or was 0:10:08.320 --> 0:10:11.320 mostly a conscious being after the Cold War, and so 0:10:11.400 --> 0:10:14.080 I think people who are a little bit older, you know, 0:10:14.120 --> 0:10:16.679 were part of that nuclear past and thought about the 0:10:16.720 --> 0:10:19.880 threat of nuclear war a lot more. And then nuclear 0:10:19.920 --> 0:10:23.640 weapons seem to kind of just recede into the background 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:26.160 in our minds and in terms of like the kinds 0:10:26.160 --> 0:10:29.080 of policies that we talk about. But you know, they 0:10:29.120 --> 0:10:32.080 never went away. We still have thousands of them in 0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:35.760 the United States, and there are thousands more across the world. 0:10:35.920 --> 0:10:39.040 And yeah, I just thought, you know, we don't talk 0:10:39.080 --> 0:10:42.400 about them, but they still kind of underlie every interaction 0:10:42.600 --> 0:10:45.800 that any nuclear country has with each other, like they're 0:10:45.840 --> 0:10:48.559 still a part of the negotiations, whether we're talking about 0:10:48.600 --> 0:10:51.840 them or not. And in my early reporting, I found 0:10:51.880 --> 0:10:54.559 out that the US is embarking on a very large 0:10:54.600 --> 0:10:59.559 and very expensive modernization of nuclear weapons, and so I thought, 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:03.400 you know, if we're doing all of that buy into 0:11:03.480 --> 0:11:06.360 nuclear weapons, they're probably not going anywhere. They're probably only 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:09.199 going to become more important, and we should probably start 0:11:09.240 --> 0:11:12.440 talking about them in the present tense and not just 0:11:12.480 --> 0:11:14.079 the past tense, like you were saying. 0:11:14.960 --> 0:11:17.240 I think that what makes me really nervous, And I 0:11:17.320 --> 0:11:20.760 think that why your book is important. What makes me 0:11:20.880 --> 0:11:25.840 nervous is that in some way, nuclear weapons have been 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:31.480 the kind of I don't know, horror movie scare tactic 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:35.560 type of you know, they'll drop the bomb on us 0:11:35.720 --> 0:11:39.600 finger on the red button, that it almost seems kind 0:11:39.600 --> 0:11:43.400 of talked about in almost a very cartoon villain type 0:11:43.400 --> 0:11:47.440 of way. And yet we don't really in this country, 0:11:47.480 --> 0:11:52.040 for instance, talk about our history of destroying an entire city, 0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:57.360 right like of the lives lost, and like the people 0:11:57.400 --> 0:12:00.840 of Japan have a very different relationship and ship with 0:12:01.000 --> 0:12:04.480 nuclear history and how that is still very much a 0:12:04.520 --> 0:12:09.760 part of their present right again, Chernobyl nuclear plant. Like 0:12:09.800 --> 0:12:13.640 we talk about these things in these horrific kind of 0:12:14.120 --> 0:12:18.199 accidents or intentional damage that is caused, But I don't 0:12:18.240 --> 0:12:21.480 feel like in this country in particular, that we have 0:12:21.600 --> 0:12:26.240 a necessary grip on what it means to continue in 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:29.480 arms race, but do so kind of under the radar. 0:12:30.240 --> 0:12:33.320 So like, I guess my question for you is talk 0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:35.840 to me about the investments that are being made by 0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:40.439 this country and what that signals to you, Right. 0:12:40.320 --> 0:12:43.199 Yeah, I think in this country they have become kind of, 0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:46.760 like like you said, an abstract kind of nightmare boogeyman, 0:12:47.000 --> 0:12:50.839 even though we the US, are the only ones who 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:54.839 have ever dropped one on other people in anger and 0:12:55.320 --> 0:12:57.240 killed a lot of them and harmed a lot more 0:12:57.400 --> 0:13:00.640 people for a long time. And so I think, you know, 0:13:00.760 --> 0:13:04.760 the investment that we're making right now is between one 0:13:04.800 --> 0:13:08.840 and two trillion dollars probably closer to two over the 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:13.080 course of thirty years to update these weapons that are, 0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:16.199 you know, on the scale of decades old. And what 0:13:16.400 --> 0:13:19.800 that says to me, I think is they are not 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:22.760 going to be decreasing in importance. I think after the 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:26.240 Cold War people thought, you know, we had this one 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:28.880 on one conflict with the Soviet Union, and now that 0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:31.840 that has gone, they will kind of go into the background. 0:13:32.200 --> 0:13:35.199 But you don't update something that you don't plan to, 0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:37.400 you know, have be an important partner of your country, 0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:40.360 especially not to the tune of two trillion dollars. And 0:13:40.440 --> 0:13:43.960 I think we are doing that in part because the 0:13:43.960 --> 0:13:47.120 weapons are old, and also in part because other countries 0:13:47.160 --> 0:13:49.800 are doing it too, and so it does seem to 0:13:49.880 --> 0:13:53.960 me like a resurgence of the importance of nuclear weapons 0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:56.920 in the world. And so then of course when they're 0:13:56.920 --> 0:13:59.360 more important, there's more of a threat there is this 0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:02.680 sort of countdown doomsday clock sort of thing that you 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:03.760 were mentioning. 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:06.320 Yeah, because I mean, you know, it was the and 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:09.880 I forget I believe it's like the atomic researchers who 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:12.640 created this doomsday clock and said that we are the 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:14.920 closest to midnight that we have ever been, you know, 0:14:15.040 --> 0:14:17.400 in this point in our history. And you know, and 0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:23.040 what that means is this idea that the world is 0:14:23.080 --> 0:14:27.880 in such a place of unease and instability and that 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:32.080 we're seeing these powers that we thought were long gone 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:36.320 return in a way that we haven't seen since the 0:14:36.360 --> 0:14:39.320 Cold War. And so you know, when I look at 0:14:39.520 --> 0:14:46.440 the Russian president Vladimir Putin the invasion of Ukraine and 0:14:46.480 --> 0:14:49.160 one of the first things that they did was seize 0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:54.040 the nuclear power plant there right, Like that to me 0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:57.080 is like you're making it very clear and known what 0:14:57.240 --> 0:15:00.000 you're going after. This is the largest nuclear power plant 0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:04.200 in that part of the world, right, And so when 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:08.960 you saw that happen, and like the rest of us, again, 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:13.640 do you think that we are talking about it in 0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:16.960 the media, talking about it in a way that makes 0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:22.520 it readily understandable and also the consequences readily digestible. 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:26.720 I think, you know, I think that you know, regarding 0:15:26.920 --> 0:15:30.920 the attack on the power plant, that you know, nuclear 0:15:31.000 --> 0:15:35.120 things have this kind of cultural fear that other weapons 0:15:35.200 --> 0:15:37.920 and things don't be, you know, because they are worse 0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:41.440 in different ways. There's radiation, it's more long lasting. You know, 0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:44.280 you drop a regular bomb and there's a lot of 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:47.160 devastation there, but it doesn't last in the same way, 0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:49.640 and its effects aren't kind of invisible in the way 0:15:49.680 --> 0:15:52.960 that you know, the radiation and fallow from a bomb are. 0:15:53.160 --> 0:15:55.840 And so I think that doing something like attacking a 0:15:55.920 --> 0:15:59.240 nuclear power plant, even if that's not dropping a nuclear weapon, 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:03.680 does call up those like very reasonable fears you know 0:16:03.800 --> 0:16:06.880 that I also have. But at the same time, you're right, 0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:09.320 we kind of talk about it at a high level, 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:12.160 talk about it in abstractions, and don't really get down 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:15.360 to the human cost of what happens if there is, 0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:18.080 you know, another nuclear accident, in nuclear attack or a 0:16:18.120 --> 0:16:21.680 straight up dropping of a nuclear weapon. And I think 0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:24.720 that you know, so much information about nuclear weapons and 0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:28.240 what's going on is classified or at least not you know, 0:16:28.400 --> 0:16:30.560 talked about out in the open, that it's really hard 0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:32.520 for people who are not a part of that world 0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:35.440 to even get a sense of what's going on at all. 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:40.040 What surprised you the most in your research for this book. 0:16:40.680 --> 0:16:43.320 Yeah, I think what surprised me the most was kind 0:16:43.360 --> 0:16:46.680 of on the human side of the people who actually 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:51.040 work within the nuclear world in the United States, and 0:16:51.600 --> 0:16:55.000 this is that a lot of them are actually pretty 0:16:55.440 --> 0:16:58.880 peaceful people who would prefer that there were no nuclear 0:16:58.880 --> 0:17:02.280 weapons on the planet, and in various ways see their 0:17:02.320 --> 0:17:06.000 own work as working towards that goal. Like maybe some 0:17:06.040 --> 0:17:09.720 of them work on, you know, maintaining the nuclear weapons 0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:13.320 in the United States so that you know, they don't 0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:16.000 have an accident, or they don't degrade in a dangerous way, 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:19.159 or they deter conflict in some way. And then there 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:22.360 are other people who work on you know, non non proliferation, 0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:25.560 the flip side of proliferation, of making sure there are 0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:28.320 fewer nuclear weapons as we go forward and you know, 0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:31.040 no new nuclear tests and things like that. And so 0:17:31.119 --> 0:17:33.840 it surprised me that there were people working within the 0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:37.199 nuclear weapons complex who you know, want to move the 0:17:37.240 --> 0:17:41.639 direction of eventually you know, eliminating that complex altogether. 0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:46.480 Yeah, I guess that is incredibly surprising because but you know, 0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:49.800 at the same time, I think that people that are 0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:55.680 that are scientists. Their whole work is about discovery, right 0:17:55.800 --> 0:18:00.800 and testing hypotheses. Like I don't think that that they're 0:18:01.000 --> 0:18:03.720 you know, like they're not like kill amongers that are 0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:05.679 a part of you know what I'm saying, that are 0:18:05.720 --> 0:18:08.760 a part of that field, like in that way, like 0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:11.280 you know, you know, let me not say that everybody 0:18:11.320 --> 0:18:14.280 is like a peacemaker. But I think that what we believe, 0:18:14.720 --> 0:18:18.359 like the people that create these things are not the 0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:21.040 people that are creating the strategy of how to use them. 0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:24.320 And I think that that is kind of the differentiator, 0:18:24.480 --> 0:18:27.840 is that you need scientists and chemists and all of 0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:30.840 these things in order to create something like this, but 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:34.359 it is actually the military and the folks that are 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:38.760 creating the strategy that causes the devastation. Right, If the 0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:44.280 United States, though in your opinion, were not to invest 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:47.280 two trillion dollars over thirty years that you know, could 0:18:47.320 --> 0:18:49.960 go to a myriad of things that are actually helpful. 0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:53.720 If they decided to lay down their you know, their 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:58.000 nuclear weapons. Do you think that other countries would, like 0:18:58.040 --> 0:19:01.200 we have tried, you know, or maybe they haven't really 0:19:01.240 --> 0:19:05.159 tried actually, you know, over the decades to have a 0:19:05.280 --> 0:19:12.480 reverse proliferation where we're having serious conversations about trying to 0:19:12.600 --> 0:19:15.119 deter this type of creation. 0:19:15.720 --> 0:19:17.840 Right, Yeah, I mean, there have been some success in 0:19:17.960 --> 0:19:21.359 decreasing the total number of nuclear weapons in the world, 0:19:21.520 --> 0:19:23.480 like there used to be. I believe the number is 0:19:23.520 --> 0:19:26.919 seventy thousand, which is an incredible number of nuclear weapons, 0:19:26.960 --> 0:19:29.879 and now there's around thirteen thousand, so that's a lot lower, 0:19:30.080 --> 0:19:33.760 still quite a few, still more than most people would like, 0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:37.600 I think, And those agreements in those decreases in the 0:19:37.680 --> 0:19:40.639 number of weapons have usually come because the countries that 0:19:40.760 --> 0:19:43.920 have them both agree at the same time, like, we 0:19:44.000 --> 0:19:47.879 will decrease our number of weapons or our capabilities in 0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:50.200 the same way so that no one's like got a 0:19:50.280 --> 0:19:53.760 one up on somebody else. And so I think I 0:19:53.760 --> 0:19:56.359 think it's unlikely that the US would ever kind of 0:19:56.760 --> 0:19:59.760 unilaterally say we're going to put these things away. And 0:19:59.800 --> 0:20:04.080 if they did, I you know, I can't see the future, 0:20:04.240 --> 0:20:06.880 but I would guess that at least at least one 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:09.439 or two countries would see that as an opportunity to 0:20:09.480 --> 0:20:12.760 be on top rather than an opportunity to you know, 0:20:12.920 --> 0:20:17.239 disarm themselves. But there are paths forward that people like 0:20:17.280 --> 0:20:21.320 the Global Zero organization, which is a nuclear like get 0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:25.120 rid of them all organization have proposed? Are those kinds 0:20:25.119 --> 0:20:27.600 of things, like we all agree at the same time, 0:20:28.000 --> 0:20:30.199 here's how we're going to decrease things. These are the 0:20:30.280 --> 0:20:33.360 agreements we're going to make to not use them until 0:20:33.400 --> 0:20:36.520 eventually you get to zero. And so I think that's 0:20:36.560 --> 0:20:38.679 the more likely path forward in that direction. 0:20:39.680 --> 0:20:41.399 I mean, I wonder, do you ever think that we 0:20:41.480 --> 0:20:45.119 will live inside of a world that has zero nuclear weapons. 0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:48.640 I've been so steeped in the world of nuclear weapons 0:20:48.640 --> 0:20:50.680 for the past few years that they now just seem 0:20:50.760 --> 0:20:53.720 like such an integral part of modern life that it's 0:20:53.760 --> 0:20:56.639 hard for me to see a way that that works 0:20:56.680 --> 0:21:00.760 in the near future. But I think that is probably 0:21:01.080 --> 0:21:04.040 or definitely a better and safer direction for the world 0:21:04.119 --> 0:21:07.119 to go eventually. But I think there's a lot of 0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:11.640 steps and time on the way there that are unclear, 0:21:11.800 --> 0:21:14.680 probably to the leaders of every country. 0:21:15.280 --> 0:21:17.720 Let me ask you this too, you know, just as 0:21:17.800 --> 0:21:21.320 this thought came into my mind, which is that kind 0:21:21.359 --> 0:21:26.280 of going back to the Hollywood cartoon type of ideas 0:21:26.320 --> 0:21:31.000 around nuclear weapons, is that World War three has been 0:21:31.080 --> 0:21:35.160 said to be the end of civilization as we know it. 0:21:36.520 --> 0:21:41.040 If everyone were to just drop their bombs. What are 0:21:41.080 --> 0:21:46.879 your thoughts about that? And also like the reality of 0:21:46.960 --> 0:21:48.680 something like that happening. 0:21:49.560 --> 0:21:51.600 Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of the experts 0:21:51.640 --> 0:21:53.720 I talked to. You know, usually when you talk to 0:21:53.800 --> 0:21:56.840 experts in a topic, they'll kind of take the hype 0:21:56.880 --> 0:21:58.800 down a notch and make you maybe a little a 0:21:58.800 --> 0:22:01.199 little less scared of some than you were before. But 0:22:01.240 --> 0:22:05.720 it was interesting talking to nuclear weapons policy experts who 0:22:05.800 --> 0:22:10.560 are as much or if not more afraid of, you know, 0:22:10.640 --> 0:22:14.400 a nuclear conflict than the average person who doesn't work 0:22:14.400 --> 0:22:17.560 in that field is, which is kind of disturbing. And 0:22:17.640 --> 0:22:20.600 so I think, I mean, I like to think that 0:22:20.760 --> 0:22:23.920 like let's say, you know, one country drops a nuclear weapon, 0:22:24.000 --> 0:22:28.159 another retaliates, that we could kind of come together as 0:22:28.359 --> 0:22:30.520 a world and be like, we don't want this to 0:22:30.680 --> 0:22:34.520 escalate further, like we did it and we need to 0:22:34.560 --> 0:22:37.520 stop it, and it's tracks now before you know, everyone 0:22:37.600 --> 0:22:41.480 is dead or you know, yeah, we set civilization back 0:22:41.560 --> 0:22:46.280 to zero. But yeah, I don't know how, yeah you 0:22:46.359 --> 0:22:49.080 go about that. It's a much more complicated nuclear world 0:22:49.080 --> 0:22:51.600 than it was in the Cold War, when you know, 0:22:51.640 --> 0:22:55.880 there were fewer countries with weapons. Yeah, lots of fewer motivations, 0:22:56.280 --> 0:22:59.640 fewer superpowers really, and so I think, yeah, I think 0:22:59.640 --> 0:23:03.560 it's just really complicated. And so I think the experts 0:23:03.600 --> 0:23:06.040 I've spoken to say that, you know, the nuclear danger 0:23:06.080 --> 0:23:09.000 we're in right now is the same, if not higher, 0:23:09.040 --> 0:23:11.200 than it was during the height of the Cold War, 0:23:11.640 --> 0:23:13.960 and it is a much more complicated world. So I 0:23:13.960 --> 0:23:16.760 don't know that anyone knows what that looks like, but 0:23:17.520 --> 0:23:20.160 I would personally not like to have a World War three. 0:23:20.359 --> 0:23:21.640 I imagine you wouldn't either. 0:23:22.440 --> 0:23:25.520 Yeah, I just I guess what just scared this shit 0:23:25.560 --> 0:23:28.960 out of me is the fact that the experts that 0:23:29.000 --> 0:23:31.119 you talked to you, we're not trying to take you 0:23:31.200 --> 0:23:33.920 off the cliff. They were not trying to talk you down. 0:23:34.280 --> 0:23:38.199 So that doesn't feel comforting at all. Actually, that feels 0:23:38.280 --> 0:23:39.160 really alarming. 0:23:44.359 --> 0:23:44.560 You know. 0:23:44.960 --> 0:23:48.720 Sometimes I feel like having so much information can just 0:23:48.880 --> 0:23:52.280 keep you absolutely on edge all the time. But I 0:23:52.320 --> 0:23:55.639 do honestly believe that people are not on edge enough 0:23:56.240 --> 0:23:59.440 right about the stakes at which we're playing with, you 0:23:59.480 --> 0:24:02.120 know what I'm saying, Like, I feel like, to your 0:24:02.160 --> 0:24:04.280 point about the Cold War, that the stakes are so 0:24:04.400 --> 0:24:07.000 much higher and the world is so much more complicated 0:24:07.560 --> 0:24:11.080 than it was then, and so to really have an 0:24:11.200 --> 0:24:14.119 understanding of what is going on and the risk of 0:24:14.200 --> 0:24:18.159 ignorance around it, I think is also really high. You know, 0:24:18.359 --> 0:24:20.959 last question for you, Sarah is that you know, you 0:24:21.000 --> 0:24:24.920 write this book and you cover these issues. What are 0:24:24.960 --> 0:24:27.879 your hopes for this book, for the information that you 0:24:28.000 --> 0:24:32.520 put out for people to walk away with after reading 0:24:32.560 --> 0:24:33.200 the Countdown? 0:24:34.240 --> 0:24:36.840 Yeah? I mean, I think my first hope was just 0:24:36.920 --> 0:24:39.280 to bring a lot of this information into a more 0:24:39.359 --> 0:24:41.800 public place than it was before, like that you know, 0:24:41.840 --> 0:24:44.320 the scientists who work at nuclear weapons labs, that the 0:24:44.320 --> 0:24:48.119