1 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 1: Good morning, Keeps, and welcome to wok F Daily with 2 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 1: me your girl Danielle Moody recording from the Home Bunker. 3 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:25,919 Speaker 1: Both Happy Monday. It is a good day. I will 4 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:29,480 Speaker 1: say this. Headed it to the weekend feeling really great 5 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:34,200 Speaker 1: following Joe Biden's State of the Union, So I wanted 6 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: to start out today with giving you my thoughts on 7 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:45,840 Speaker 1: how the State of the Union shaped up. So first off, 8 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 1: you know, I will say that Joe Biden fucking delivered. 9 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: And you know that I am somebody who does not 10 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: mince words when it comes to my critique of the 11 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: Biden administration of Joe Biden, and I will tell you 12 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 1: that the State of the Union was a slam fucking 13 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 1: dunk one because the expectations are set so low. The 14 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:19,760 Speaker 1: Right has done such a great job of creating this 15 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: false narrative around sleepy Joe and unprepared Joe and stumbling 16 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 1: Joe that all he has to do is, you know, 17 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 1: come with some fire, and he came with so much fire. 18 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:37,839 Speaker 1: Now these motherfuckers are out here talking about, oh, he's 19 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:41,320 Speaker 1: on adderall, Oh he's on some cocktail of drugs. Nah, 20 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:44,039 Speaker 1: my friends, because the only person that was doing a 21 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 1: bunch of cocktails and drugs was in the Trump administration, 22 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 1: and that is by reporting from inside of that administration 23 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: about how you know, the adderall the coke, and all 24 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 1: of those other things just flowed like a river. Nonetheless, 25 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 1: Joe Biden came with it. He started out talking about democracy, 26 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 1: talking about freedoms. He came for the Supreme Court directly, 27 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 1: which no president has ever done, and rightfully fucking sew 28 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 1: because their numbers not like they give a shit because 29 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 1: they have a job for life, so what do they 30 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 1: care what people think about them? But their poll numbers 31 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: are in the fucking garbage right, just like the decisions 32 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 1: that they have made. And he came for them directly 33 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:26,920 Speaker 1: and said that you overturned Roe v. Wade, But you 34 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 1: know what, the women who have political power and are 35 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: more than half of this electorate, they will have their 36 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: voices heard. He came directly for Republicans. And I loved 37 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: the fact. I love the fact that he kept referring 38 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 1: to Donald Trump throughout his entire speech as his predecessor 39 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 1: and said that his predecessor and people inside of this 40 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 1: chamber right with everything that he said, because no, let's 41 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 1: not get it twisted. It is not just Donald Trump 42 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 1: that is trump Ism. It is all of them that 43 00:02:56,280 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 1: are inside of that chamber that could not possibly find 44 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:03,920 Speaker 1: a moment within them to cheer for clean water, to 45 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: cheer for lower drug prescription prices, to cheer for lower 46 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:13,080 Speaker 1: taxes for the working class right, to cheer for vaccinations 47 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 1: that you know, had Americans stop dropping dead from COVID, 48 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:23,919 Speaker 1: like when you looked at the split screen. In terms 49 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: of what Joe Biden was delivering, the applause that was 50 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: coming out of the Democrats, and the things that Republicans 51 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 1: were sitting on their hands about, I mean, democracy progress. 52 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 1: They couldn't even clap for fucking shrinkflation right and ending that. 53 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: And you know, there are some folks that will say, 54 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: you know, oh, they think that this is something small 55 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 1: for Joe Biden to have been paying attention to the 56 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: amount of chips in a bag. It is not small 57 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:53,119 Speaker 1: for the average American person that is trying to feed 58 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 1: themselves in their fucking families. When you're going into stores 59 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: and you're paying the same exact price but you were 60 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 1: getting less, you are getting cheated, right. So, whether it's 61 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 1: with the junk fies that everyone deals with with credit cards, 62 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 1: whether it's with strinflation in terms of the packaging, right, 63 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 1: This administration gives a shit about whether or not you're 64 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:17,839 Speaker 1: being cheated by corporations that are making record fucking profits. 65 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 1: So it was very clear that Joe Biden was laying 66 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: out the stark binary contrast between him and Democrats and 67 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: Donald Trump and the Republican Party. And if you are 68 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:39,280 Speaker 1: a person that cares about bodily autonomy, about immigration, about 69 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:43,720 Speaker 1: the plight of the people in Palestine, about you know, 70 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:46,160 Speaker 1: the plight of the people in Ukraine, and whether or 71 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:48,799 Speaker 1: not Putin is going to be given a fucking red 72 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: carpet and say do whatever the hell you want. Right, 73 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: you have nations joining NATO because of the actions that 74 00:04:57,240 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 1: Putin has taken and because of the fear that they 75 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:04,159 Speaker 1: have of another Trump administration and losing the United States 76 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: is an ally. So for me, Joe Biden delivered on 77 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:11,840 Speaker 1: every single point that he needed to deliver on, and 78 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 1: he did it with fire. And he also did it 79 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:17,599 Speaker 1: in a way that wasn't scripted, because he went off 80 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:22,279 Speaker 1: script a number of times. And that was also brilliant 81 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: because you know what that shows mental agility, which is 82 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 1: what we know Donald Trump does not fucking have. So 83 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 1: bravo to Biden to the team, because it gave me 84 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 1: the energy that I have been missing, the ability to 85 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 1: go out right not only on these shows but on 86 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:46,239 Speaker 1: TV to say this is the candidate that we need. Look, folks, 87 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:51,280 Speaker 1: I know where we are in terms of the humanitarian 88 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 1: crisis in Gaza. I also know that if Donald Trump 89 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: becomes president, they will bulldoze what is left of God 90 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: and what is left of the Palestinian people, and there 91 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 1: will be no hope for them whatsoever. So while the 92 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: situation is absolutely bleak and you will never hear me 93 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:16,720 Speaker 1: minimize it, and I speak out on it all the time, 94 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:21,160 Speaker 1: the situation as it pertains to our democracy and holding 95 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 1: on to it right just got a renewed vitality that 96 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 1: it has needed. I think that the American people know 97 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: what is at stake and are ready right to exercise 98 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: their power and their vote. Now, let me take a 99 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 1: moment and talk about the Stepford fucking wife that they 100 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: put up to give the rebuttal Dear God, this is 101 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: what the Republican people think about women. And I don't 102 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: want folks to get all caught up in like the 103 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 1: joking about this Stepford wife Katie Britt. But the reality 104 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: is is that this is what the feminization of white 105 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 1: supremacy looks like. Like they offer up their toxic strong man, right, 106 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 1: and then they offer up their small soft right like 107 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 1: meager woman, and this is the destructive pair in America. 108 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 1: She was giving off a clarion call to white suburban 109 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 1: women and say, don't you want this nice kitchen, this 110 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: diamond cross, right, Just stand by your man and be 111 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: a good wife. Right, don't seek too much, don't do 112 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 1: too much, even though she is a senator, right, So 113 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 1: I want folks to not get it lost on them 114 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: what it is that the Republican Party is presenting and 115 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 1: how it was that Joe Biden was able to respond. 116 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: Coming up next in UH Today's episode is my interview 117 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: with science journalists and the author of Countdown The Blinding 118 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: Future of Nuclear Weapons, Sarah's Skulls. You know, often when 119 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 1: we talk about nuclear weapons, we are talking about them 120 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 1: in the past tense, right. We are talking about them 121 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 1: as it pertains to the Cold War and World War. 122 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: But we're not talking about what is being done right 123 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 1: now in this country and in other countries, as we 124 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 1: are still in the midst of an arms race, and 125 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:39,079 Speaker 1: so my conversation with Sarah, while terrifying, was also incredibly 126 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 1: eye opening. And her book, Countdown the Blinding Future of 127 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 1: Nuclear Weapons is out now, folks. I am very excited 128 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: to welcome to WOKF Daily for the very first time 129 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 1: the author of the book Countdown the Blinding Future of 130 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 1: Nuclear Weapons, Sarah Skulls, who is a science journalist. And 131 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 1: in this book, you are talking, Sarah about nuclear weapons. 132 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:17,839 Speaker 1: And I think that what is interesting is that oftentimes 133 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 1: when we talk about nuclear weapons, we go back in time. Right, 134 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 1: we're talking about the Cold War, We're talking about dropping 135 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 1: the bomb in World War Two. We're talking about these 136 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: historic events. What we don't often talk about is the 137 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 1: nuclear proliferation that is still happening today and how that 138 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 1: is affecting our day to day lives. So, can you 139 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 1: talk to us about why you decided to write this 140 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:51,840 Speaker 1: book and why it's important for us to pay attention? 141 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: I mean, are we in the midst of a countdown 142 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 1: like the title of your book suggest. 143 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean those are all great questions, and they 144 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:05,319 Speaker 2: are the questions that ultimately led me to write the book. 145 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 2: You know, I think I largely grew up or was 146 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:11,320 Speaker 2: mostly a conscious being after the Cold War, and so 147 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:14,080 Speaker 2: I think people who are a little bit older, you know, 148 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:16,679 Speaker 2: were part of that nuclear past and thought about the 149 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 2: threat of nuclear war a lot more. And then nuclear 150 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 2: weapons seem to kind of just recede into the background 151 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 2: in our minds and in terms of like the kinds 152 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 2: of policies that we talk about. But you know, they 153 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 2: never went away. We still have thousands of them in 154 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 2: the United States, and there are thousands more across the world. 155 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 2: And yeah, I just thought, you know, we don't talk 156 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 2: about them, but they still kind of underlie every interaction 157 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 2: that any nuclear country has with each other, like they're 158 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:48,559 Speaker 2: still a part of the negotiations, whether we're talking about 159 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 2: them or not. And in my early reporting, I found 160 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:54,559 Speaker 2: out that the US is embarking on a very large 161 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:59,559 Speaker 2: and very expensive modernization of nuclear weapons, and so I thought, 162 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 2: you know, if we're doing all of that buy into 163 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 2: nuclear weapons, they're probably not going anywhere. They're probably only 164 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,199 Speaker 2: going to become more important, and we should probably start 165 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:12,440 Speaker 2: talking about them in the present tense and not just 166 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:14,079 Speaker 2: the past tense, like you were saying. 167 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 1: I think that what makes me really nervous, And I 168 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 1: think that why your book is important. What makes me 169 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 1: nervous is that in some way, nuclear weapons have been 170 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 1: the kind of I don't know, horror movie scare tactic 171 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:35,560 Speaker 1: type of you know, they'll drop the bomb on us 172 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 1: finger on the red button, that it almost seems kind 173 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 1: of talked about in almost a very cartoon villain type 174 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 1: of way. And yet we don't really in this country, 175 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 1: for instance, talk about our history of destroying an entire city, 176 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 1: right like of the lives lost, and like the people 177 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 1: of Japan have a very different relationship and ship with 178 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 1: nuclear history and how that is still very much a 179 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 1: part of their present right again, Chernobyl nuclear plant. Like 180 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 1: we talk about these things in these horrific kind of 181 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:18,199 Speaker 1: accidents or intentional damage that is caused, But I don't 182 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 1: feel like in this country in particular, that we have 183 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 1: a necessary grip on what it means to continue in 184 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 1: arms race, but do so kind of under the radar. 185 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:33,320 Speaker 1: So like, I guess my question for you is talk 186 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 1: to me about the investments that are being made by 187 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:40,439 Speaker 1: this country and what that signals to you, Right. 188 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:43,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think in this country they have become kind of, 189 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 2: like like you said, an abstract kind of nightmare boogeyman, 190 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:50,839 Speaker 2: even though we the US, are the only ones who 191 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:54,839 Speaker 2: have ever dropped one on other people in anger and 192 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 2: killed a lot of them and harmed a lot more 193 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 2: people for a long time. And so I think, you know, 194 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 2: the investment that we're making right now is between one 195 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 2: and two trillion dollars probably closer to two over the 196 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:13,080 Speaker 2: course of thirty years to update these weapons that are, 197 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:16,199 Speaker 2: you know, on the scale of decades old. And what 198 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 2: that says to me, I think is they are not 199 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 2: going to be decreasing in importance. I think after the 200 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 2: Cold War people thought, you know, we had this one 201 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 2: on one conflict with the Soviet Union, and now that 202 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:31,840 Speaker 2: that has gone, they will kind of go into the background. 203 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:35,199 Speaker 2: But you don't update something that you don't plan to, 204 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 2: you know, have be an important partner of your country, 205 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 2: especially not to the tune of two trillion dollars. And 206 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 2: I think we are doing that in part because the 207 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 2: weapons are old, and also in part because other countries 208 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 2: are doing it too, and so it does seem to 209 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:53,960 Speaker 2: me like a resurgence of the importance of nuclear weapons 210 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 2: in the world. And so then of course when they're 211 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 2: more important, there's more of a threat there is this 212 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,680 Speaker 2: sort of countdown doomsday clock sort of thing that you 213 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 2: were mentioning. 214 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, because I mean, you know, it was the and 215 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 1: I forget I believe it's like the atomic researchers who 216 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 1: created this doomsday clock and said that we are the 217 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 1: closest to midnight that we have ever been, you know, 218 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 1: in this point in our history. And you know, and 219 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 1: what that means is this idea that the world is 220 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 1: in such a place of unease and instability and that 221 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 1: we're seeing these powers that we thought were long gone 222 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 1: return in a way that we haven't seen since the 223 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 1: Cold War. And so you know, when I look at 224 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 1: the Russian president Vladimir Putin the invasion of Ukraine and 225 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 1: one of the first things that they did was seize 226 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: the nuclear power plant there right, Like that to me 227 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: is like you're making it very clear and known what 228 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 1: you're going after. This is the largest nuclear power plant 229 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: in that part of the world, right, And so when 230 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: you saw that happen, and like the rest of us, again, 231 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 1: do you think that we are talking about it in 232 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 1: the media, talking about it in a way that makes 233 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 1: it readily understandable and also the consequences readily digestible. 234 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 2: I think, you know, I think that you know, regarding 235 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 2: the attack on the power plant, that you know, nuclear 236 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 2: things have this kind of cultural fear that other weapons 237 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 2: and things don't be, you know, because they are worse 238 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 2: in different ways. There's radiation, it's more long lasting. You know, 239 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 2: you drop a regular bomb and there's a lot of 240 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 2: devastation there, but it doesn't last in the same way, 241 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 2: and its effects aren't kind of invisible in the way 242 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 2: that you know, the radiation and fallow from a bomb are. 243 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 2: And so I think that doing something like attacking a 244 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 2: nuclear power plant, even if that's not dropping a nuclear weapon, 245 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 2: does call up those like very reasonable fears you know 246 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 2: that I also have. But at the same time, you're right, 247 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 2: we kind of talk about it at a high level, 248 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 2: talk about it in abstractions, and don't really get down 249 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 2: to the human cost of what happens if there is, 250 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 2: you know, another nuclear accident, in nuclear attack or a 251 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 2: straight up dropping of a nuclear weapon. And I think 252 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 2: that you know, so much information about nuclear weapons and 253 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 2: what's going on is classified or at least not you know, 254 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 2: talked about out in the open, that it's really hard 255 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 2: for people who are not a part of that world 256 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 2: to even get a sense of what's going on at all. 257 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 1: What surprised you the most in your research for this book. 258 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think what surprised me the most was kind 259 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 2: of on the human side of the people who actually 260 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 2: work within the nuclear world in the United States, and 261 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 2: this is that a lot of them are actually pretty 262 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 2: peaceful people who would prefer that there were no nuclear 263 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 2: weapons on the planet, and in various ways see their 264 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 2: own work as working towards that goal. Like maybe some 265 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 2: of them work on, you know, maintaining the nuclear weapons 266 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 2: in the United States so that you know, they don't 267 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 2: have an accident, or they don't degrade in a dangerous way, 268 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:19,159 Speaker 2: or they deter conflict in some way. And then there 269 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:22,360 Speaker 2: are other people who work on you know, non non proliferation, 270 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 2: the flip side of proliferation, of making sure there are 271 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 2: fewer nuclear weapons as we go forward and you know, 272 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 2: no new nuclear tests and things like that. And so 273 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 2: it surprised me that there were people working within the 274 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:37,199 Speaker 2: nuclear weapons complex who you know, want to move the 275 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 2: direction of eventually you know, eliminating that complex altogether. 276 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess that is incredibly surprising because but you know, 277 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 1: at the same time, I think that people that are 278 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:55,680 Speaker 1: that are scientists. Their whole work is about discovery, right 279 00:17:55,800 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 1: and testing hypotheses. Like I don't think that that they're 280 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 1: you know, like they're not like kill amongers that are 281 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:05,679 Speaker 1: a part of you know what I'm saying, that are 282 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 1: a part of that field, like in that way, like 283 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 1: you know, you know, let me not say that everybody 284 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 1: is like a peacemaker. But I think that what we believe, 285 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 1: like the people that create these things are not the 286 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 1: people that are creating the strategy of how to use them. 287 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 1: And I think that that is kind of the differentiator, 288 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 1: is that you need scientists and chemists and all of 289 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 1: these things in order to create something like this, but 290 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:34,359 Speaker 1: it is actually the military and the folks that are 291 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 1: creating the strategy that causes the devastation. Right, If the 292 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 1: United States, though in your opinion, were not to invest 293 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 1: two trillion dollars over thirty years that you know, could 294 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 1: go to a myriad of things that are actually helpful. 295 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 1: If they decided to lay down their you know, their 296 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 1: nuclear weapons. Do you think that other countries would, like 297 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:01,200 Speaker 1: we have tried, you know, or maybe they haven't really 298 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:05,159 Speaker 1: tried actually, you know, over the decades to have a 299 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 1: reverse proliferation where we're having serious conversations about trying to 300 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:15,119 Speaker 1: deter this type of creation. 301 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I mean, there have been some success in 302 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:21,359 Speaker 2: decreasing the total number of nuclear weapons in the world, 303 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 2: like there used to be. I believe the number is 304 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:26,919 Speaker 2: seventy thousand, which is an incredible number of nuclear weapons, 305 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:29,879 Speaker 2: and now there's around thirteen thousand, so that's a lot lower, 306 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 2: still quite a few, still more than most people would like, 307 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 2: I think, And those agreements in those decreases in the 308 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:40,639 Speaker 2: number of weapons have usually come because the countries that 309 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:43,920 Speaker 2: have them both agree at the same time, like, we 310 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,879 Speaker 2: will decrease our number of weapons or our capabilities in 311 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,200 Speaker 2: the same way so that no one's like got a 312 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 2: one up on somebody else. And so I think I 313 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:56,359 Speaker 2: think it's unlikely that the US would ever kind of 314 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 2: unilaterally say we're going to put these things away. And 315 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 2: if they did, I you know, I can't see the future, 316 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:06,880 Speaker 2: but I would guess that at least at least one 317 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:09,439 Speaker 2: or two countries would see that as an opportunity to 318 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 2: be on top rather than an opportunity to you know, 319 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:17,239 Speaker 2: disarm themselves. But there are paths forward that people like 320 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 2: the Global Zero organization, which is a nuclear like get 321 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:25,120 Speaker 2: rid of them all organization have proposed? Are those kinds 322 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 2: of things, like we all agree at the same time, 323 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:30,199 Speaker 2: here's how we're going to decrease things. These are the 324 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:33,360 Speaker 2: agreements we're going to make to not use them until 325 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 2: eventually you get to zero. And so I think that's 326 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:38,679 Speaker 2: the more likely path forward in that direction. 327 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 1: I mean, I wonder, do you ever think that we 328 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:45,119 Speaker 1: will live inside of a world that has zero nuclear weapons. 329 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:48,640 Speaker 2: I've been so steeped in the world of nuclear weapons 330 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:50,680 Speaker 2: for the past few years that they now just seem 331 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 2: like such an integral part of modern life that it's 332 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:56,639 Speaker 2: hard for me to see a way that that works 333 00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 2: in the near future. But I think that is probably 334 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 2: or definitely a better and safer direction for the world 335 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:07,119 Speaker 2: to go eventually. But I think there's a lot of 336 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:11,640 Speaker 2: steps and time on the way there that are unclear, 337 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:14,680 Speaker 2: probably to the leaders of every country. 338 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:17,720 Speaker 1: Let me ask you this too, you know, just as 339 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 1: this thought came into my mind, which is that kind 340 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 1: of going back to the Hollywood cartoon type of ideas 341 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: around nuclear weapons, is that World War three has been 342 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:35,160 Speaker 1: said to be the end of civilization as we know it. 343 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: If everyone were to just drop their bombs. What are 344 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:46,879 Speaker 1: your thoughts about that? And also like the reality of 345 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:48,680 Speaker 1: something like that happening. 346 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of the experts 347 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 2: I talked to. You know, usually when you talk to 348 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 2: experts in a topic, they'll kind of take the hype 349 00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 2: down a notch and make you maybe a little a 350 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,199 Speaker 2: little less scared of some than you were before. But 351 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:05,720 Speaker 2: it was interesting talking to nuclear weapons policy experts who 352 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 2: are as much or if not more afraid of, you know, 353 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:14,400 Speaker 2: a nuclear conflict than the average person who doesn't work 354 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 2: in that field is, which is kind of disturbing. And 355 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 2: so I think, I mean, I like to think that 356 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:23,920 Speaker 2: like let's say, you know, one country drops a nuclear weapon, 357 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:28,159 Speaker 2: another retaliates, that we could kind of come together as 358 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 2: a world and be like, we don't want this to 359 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 2: escalate further, like we did it and we need to 360 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 2: stop it, and it's tracks now before you know, everyone 361 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 2: is dead or you know, yeah, we set civilization back 362 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 2: to zero. But yeah, I don't know how, yeah you 363 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 2: go about that. It's a much more complicated nuclear world 364 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 2: than it was in the Cold War, when you know, 365 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:55,880 Speaker 2: there were fewer countries with weapons. Yeah, lots of fewer motivations, 366 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:59,640 Speaker 2: fewer superpowers really, and so I think, yeah, I think 367 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 2: it's just really complicated. And so I think the experts 368 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 2: I've spoken to say that, you know, the nuclear danger 369 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 2: we're in right now is the same, if not higher, 370 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 2: than it was during the height of the Cold War, 371 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:13,960 Speaker 2: and it is a much more complicated world. So I 372 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 2: don't know that anyone knows what that looks like, but 373 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:20,160 Speaker 2: I would personally not like to have a World War three. 374 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:21,640 Speaker 2: I imagine you wouldn't either. 375 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I just I guess what just scared this shit 376 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 1: out of me is the fact that the experts that 377 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,119 Speaker 1: you talked to you, we're not trying to take you 378 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,920 Speaker 1: off the cliff. They were not trying to talk you down. 379 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:38,199 Speaker 1: So that doesn't feel comforting at all. Actually, that feels 380 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:39,160 Speaker 1: really alarming. 381 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 2: You know. 382 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 1: Sometimes I feel like having so much information can just 383 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 1: keep you absolutely on edge all the time. But I 384 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:55,639 Speaker 1: do honestly believe that people are not on edge enough 385 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 1: right about the stakes at which we're playing with, you 386 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,120 Speaker 1: know what I'm saying, Like, I feel like, to your 387 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: point about the Cold War, that the stakes are so 388 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 1: much higher and the world is so much more complicated 389 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 1: than it was then, and so to really have an 390 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 1: understanding of what is going on and the risk of 391 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:18,159 Speaker 1: ignorance around it, I think is also really high. You know, 392 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:20,959 Speaker 1: last question for you, Sarah is that you know, you 393 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,920 Speaker 1: write this book and you cover these issues. What are 394 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:27,879 Speaker 1: your hopes for this book, for the information that you 395 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 1: put out for people to walk away with after reading 396 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:33,200 Speaker 1: the Countdown? 397 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean, I think my first hope was just 398 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 2: to bring a lot of this information into a more 399 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 2: public place than it was before, like that you know, 400 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 2: the scientists who work at nuclear weapons labs, that the 401 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:48,119 Speaker 2: people working on policy, you know, they're not on soapboxes 402 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 2: in general, out talking to to regular people. But this 403 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:53,399 Speaker 2: is stuff that affects all of us, and so I 404 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 2: think all of us should have access to it. And 405 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 2: so that was my first goal. And even though you 406 00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:03,240 Speaker 2: know we're talking a lot about scary doomsday scenarios right now, 407 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 2: I actually do hope that the book gives people some 408 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 2: hope that there are people working to figure out how 409 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:13,200 Speaker 2: to make the world more stable, keep it stable, whether 410 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:16,120 Speaker 2: there are weapons or not, and like they definitely don't 411 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,359 Speaker 2: have it figured out yet, but they're very smart, very 412 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:22,359 Speaker 2: dedicated people trying to work in that direction, so hopefully 413 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,680 Speaker 2: it's a mix, a mix of nightmares and good dreams 414 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 2: in the book. 415 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 1: I think it's really extraordinary one to bring the concept 416 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:36,920 Speaker 1: and the reality of nuclear weapons into our present day reality. 417 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 1: I think that, you know, again, the stakes are so 418 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 1: extraordinarily high right now that people often are compartmentalizing what 419 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 1: is happening and not really connecting the dots and really 420 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:54,359 Speaker 1: thinking about this is not the worst that things can be, 421 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 1: do you know, And that that type of level of war, 422 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,719 Speaker 1: world War three, I think in a lot of ways 423 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 1: would be the end, both you know, figuratively and literally 424 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,200 Speaker 1: just kind of people losing their minds. So I'm really 425 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:14,119 Speaker 1: appreciative to you for writing this book, folks. The book 426 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 1: is called Countdown the Blinding Future of Nuclear Weapons. That 427 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,119 Speaker 1: is out now and I encourage everyone to get it 428 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,879 Speaker 1: and we will link to it in the show notes. 429 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 1: But thank you so much, Sarah for making the time 430 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 1: for WOKF but for honestly for writing this book and 431 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,879 Speaker 1: kind of raising an alarm that I don't think this 432 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,120 Speaker 1: alarm in particular that people are listening to. So really 433 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 1: appreciate you. 434 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for having me and for helping share 435 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:42,879 Speaker 2: the messages. 436 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 1: That is it for me today. Dear friends on wok 437 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:55,120 Speaker 1: f as always power to the people and to all 438 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 1: the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.