WEBVTT - Hillary Clinton Changes on Her Own Terms 0:00:07.680 --> 0:00:08.119 Pushkin. 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:26.680 It is a constant balancing act. It's everything from how 0:00:26.720 --> 0:00:29.840 you dress and you know what your hairstyle is, to 0:00:30.200 --> 0:00:33.159 how loudly you speak or how loudly you laugh, or 0:00:33.640 --> 0:00:36.440 you know who you are seen with or I mean, 0:00:36.479 --> 0:00:39.000 it's just a constant judgment. 0:00:39.920 --> 0:00:43.479 Hillary Rodham Clinton's had a complicated relationship with the public. 0:00:44.000 --> 0:00:46.600 It started in the nineteen seventies when she challenged the 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:49.200 cookie cutter roll laid out for her as First Lady 0:00:49.200 --> 0:00:49.839 of Arkansas. 0:00:50.240 --> 0:00:52.320 It all occurs to me that you really don't fit 0:00:52.320 --> 0:00:54.800 the image that we have created anymore the governor's wife 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:59.040 in Arkansas. You're not a native, you've been educated in 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:00.960 liberal East and universities. 0:01:01.280 --> 0:01:03.480 If you're less than forty, you don't have any children, 0:01:03.520 --> 0:01:08.280 you don't use your husband's name, you practice law. Does 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:11.840 it concern you that maybe other people feel that you 0:01:11.880 --> 0:01:14.120 don't fit the image that we have created for the 0:01:14.160 --> 0:01:16.040 governor's wife in Arkansas. 0:01:16.280 --> 0:01:20.920 No, that doesn't bother me, and I hope that it 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:23.040 doesn't bother very many people. 0:01:24.120 --> 0:01:27.959 But it did bother many people. Hillary being Hillary made 0:01:27.959 --> 0:01:32.720 people uncomfortable, and so one by one, her critics started 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:37.680 asking her to change herself. Despite all her extraordinary accomplishments, 0:01:37.760 --> 0:01:41.600 including senator, secretary of state, first woman to be nominated 0:01:41.640 --> 0:01:44.400 for president by a major political party, and I mean 0:01:44.440 --> 0:01:47.160 she even won the popular vote in the twenty sixteen election. 0:01:47.800 --> 0:01:51.600 Despite all of that, people kept at it. They wanted 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:55.080 Hillary to be different, for her to change, and she 0:01:55.320 --> 0:01:58.120 was willing to change, just never in the way that 0:01:58.160 --> 0:02:01.880 people had hoped. I'm maya Shunker and this is a 0:02:01.880 --> 0:02:05.040 slight change of plans, a show that dives deep into 0:02:05.040 --> 0:02:07.440 the world of change and hopefully gets us to think 0:02:07.440 --> 0:02:09.680 differently about change in our own lives. 0:02:33.040 --> 0:02:34.000 Hi, how are you. 0:02:34.280 --> 0:02:38.000 Hi. It's great to meet you, Secretary Clinton. I just 0:02:38.080 --> 0:02:41.880 wanted to welcome you formally to my closet. Yes, I 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:43.480 always dreamed it would be this way, you know, the 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:46.000 first time I met Hillary Clinton, it would be from 0:02:46.040 --> 0:02:50.399 my makeshift recording studio with clothes everywhere. But I guess 0:02:50.440 --> 0:02:51.839 this is the world we live in right now. 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:54.520 It is the world we live in. I have been 0:02:55.639 --> 0:02:58.640 privy to many closets over the last year because as 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:02.160 I've been doing my podcast and talking with friends on 0:03:02.320 --> 0:03:07.040 Zoom and everything, people are in closets. They're in corners 0:03:07.040 --> 0:03:09.800 of their bedroom, they're in kitchens. I mean, it's just 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:13.000 been quite a tour of everybody's living space. 0:03:13.400 --> 0:03:17.640 Yeah, exactly. You get an intimate glimpse into people's lives exactly. 0:03:18.160 --> 0:03:19.600 So I'm just going to jump in. Do you mind 0:03:19.600 --> 0:03:20.560 if I call you Hillary? 0:03:20.919 --> 0:03:22.359 Not at all? Oh, cannot at all. 0:03:23.800 --> 0:03:26.480 So I'd love to rewind the clock to your twenties. 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:29.720 We can take the little time machine back in time. 0:03:30.520 --> 0:03:33.600 So you're a lawyer in DC, You've just wrapped up 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:37.360 your work on the Nixon impeachment hearings, and then love 0:03:37.400 --> 0:03:40.720 gets in the way and you end up moving to Arkansas, 0:03:41.240 --> 0:03:46.560 and Bill becomes governor, and you are not the typical 0:03:46.680 --> 0:03:50.200 first lady, and that's met with some resistance, right. Do 0:03:50.240 --> 0:03:53.080 you mind sharing what it was that people were taking 0:03:53.120 --> 0:03:53.560 issue with. 0:03:55.080 --> 0:03:58.520 Well, I think that back in what would have been 0:03:59.160 --> 0:04:03.960 the nineteenth seventies, it was still, you know, somewhat unusual 0:04:04.120 --> 0:04:07.800 to have graduated from law school to be teaching law 0:04:08.040 --> 0:04:14.960 or practicing law. I did both, and I really saw that, 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:18.599 but I didn't think it would impede me in any way. 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:22.719 And then when I married Bill in nineteen seventy five, 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:25.560 you know, I determined that I would keep my own name, 0:04:25.600 --> 0:04:27.640 which seemed to me to make a lot of sense, 0:04:27.800 --> 0:04:32.000 because that's what I had written under at law school, 0:04:32.240 --> 0:04:36.400 that's what I had practice law under taught, et cetera. 0:04:37.320 --> 0:04:43.320 And I think it was really at the point that 0:04:43.760 --> 0:04:49.640 our daughter was born in February of nineteen eighty and 0:04:49.760 --> 0:04:54.320 Bill was having to run for reelection because there were 0:04:54.480 --> 0:04:59.520 only two year terms for governors back then, and the 0:04:59.560 --> 0:05:05.120 front page announcement was Governor Bill Clinton and Hillary Rodham 0:05:05.640 --> 0:05:10.080 announced the birth of their daughter, Chelsea. It was probably 0:05:10.279 --> 0:05:15.479 that moment that really pierced people's public consciousness that oh, 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:18.680 my gosh, she has a different name. And then that 0:05:18.800 --> 0:05:21.840 became a really big issue. And so when Bill lost 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:27.440 for reelection in nineteen eighty in the Reagan landslide, among 0:05:27.680 --> 0:05:31.360 the top reasons people said that they didn't vote for 0:05:31.440 --> 0:05:35.440 him was because I didn't take his last name or 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:38.440 change my name, as they would say. And it was 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:44.559 a truly surprising revelation to me that that would matter 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:48.520 so much to people. But now, frankly wouldn't make that 0:05:48.560 --> 0:05:52.040 big a difference to anybody, but it was significant, and 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:55.640 I had so many people come to me and say, 0:05:56.360 --> 0:05:59.280 you really have to take your husband's last name. You're 0:06:00.279 --> 0:06:03.279 stopping him from being able to run again and be 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:05.920 governor again, and there's a lot at stake with him 0:06:05.920 --> 0:06:09.080 being governor. And the one person who never asked me 0:06:09.120 --> 0:06:11.480 to do that was my husband. He thought it was 0:06:11.800 --> 0:06:16.880 pretty ridiculous also, but I concluded that it was, you know, 0:06:16.960 --> 0:06:22.360 for me, something that I was willing to do, and 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:25.640 I made an announcement that I would be Hillary Rodham Clinton. 0:06:26.640 --> 0:06:33.200 And obviously it went against what I thought was my decision, 0:06:33.960 --> 0:06:37.359 but I balanced all of the pros and cons and 0:06:37.440 --> 0:06:40.280 decided that on balance, it was the right thing for 0:06:40.279 --> 0:06:40.720 me to do. 0:06:42.000 --> 0:06:44.960 Yeah. I think a lot of people, women, especially face 0:06:45.040 --> 0:06:48.039 the same kind of tension, which is knowing when it 0:06:48.080 --> 0:06:51.880 makes sense to compromise. Right, Do I take a principled 0:06:51.920 --> 0:06:54.400 stance at every turn, but then risk getting kicked out 0:06:54.440 --> 0:06:56.880 of the arena altogether and then lose my ability to 0:06:56.920 --> 0:07:00.279 have impact. Or do I try to more thought fully 0:07:00.279 --> 0:07:03.120 pick my battles and stay in the arena and just 0:07:03.320 --> 0:07:04.279 play the longer game. 0:07:05.160 --> 0:07:08.000 Well, that's exactly right. I was not going to stop 0:07:08.120 --> 0:07:12.480 practicing law. I was not going to stop being outspoken 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:15.600 about a lot of issues that really mattered to me. 0:07:16.400 --> 0:07:19.680 And when Bill was re elected in nineteen eighty two, 0:07:20.840 --> 0:07:25.320 I dove back in and shared a task force to 0:07:25.360 --> 0:07:30.600 reform education in the state, and it was I'm sure 0:07:30.880 --> 0:07:34.680 easier for some people to hear the changes I was 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:39.840 advocating for because I was all of a sudden truly 0:07:40.080 --> 0:07:44.360 understood to be the governor's wife. So it is a 0:07:44.520 --> 0:07:47.720 constant balancing act, and I'm sure that's true for all people, 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:50.000 but I think you're right to say that as women, 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:56.000 we make those decisions constantly. And it's everything from how 0:07:56.080 --> 0:07:59.160 you dress and you know what your hairstyle is, to 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:02.440 how loud you speak or how loudly you laugh, or 0:08:02.960 --> 0:08:05.760 you know who you are seen with or I mean, 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:11.160 it's just a constant judgment both internally you're judging yourself, 0:08:11.280 --> 0:08:17.040 but most importantly how you're being judged, because there continues 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:19.960 to be a rather active double standard. 0:08:21.200 --> 0:08:23.840 Yeah, there's some really telling footage from back in the 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:26.640 day where you're getting interviewed about your role as first Lady, 0:08:26.680 --> 0:08:30.920 and underneath your face it says Hillary Raddham and underneath 0:08:30.960 --> 0:08:35.040 that in parentheses it says missus Bill Clinton. I mean, 0:08:35.120 --> 0:08:37.360 I just laughed out loud, right, But I'm part of 0:08:37.360 --> 0:08:41.640 a different generation where yes, it just seems like, of course, 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:44.480 I'm going to keep my last name. But I recognize 0:08:44.520 --> 0:08:48.560 that at the time that was a truly bold feminist statement. 0:08:49.040 --> 0:08:50.600 So I want to dig into that a little bit more, 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:55.480 which is when you did first marry Bill, what fueled 0:08:55.480 --> 0:08:57.040 your decision to keep your last name. 0:08:58.040 --> 0:09:02.240 I was just you know, feeling like he was going 0:09:02.280 --> 0:09:06.640 into politics and he would have a very public life. 0:09:06.640 --> 0:09:09.480 At that time, I never thought I would personally run 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:12.720 for office, but I thought I would stay as an advocate. 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:16.040 I'd been, you know, working for the Children's Defense Fund, 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:18.640 I'd been a lawyer on the impeachment inquiry staff. I'd 0:09:18.679 --> 0:09:25.319 had really fascinating important jobs for me, and I wanted 0:09:25.640 --> 0:09:31.040 my professional life to be considered separate from his. And 0:09:31.160 --> 0:09:33.840 I will tell you a funny story. Before I took 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:39.480 his last name, I was helping on a big lawsuit 0:09:39.640 --> 0:09:42.720 in my law firm with one of the senior partners 0:09:43.120 --> 0:09:44.920 and we went to trial. And we went to trial 0:09:44.960 --> 0:09:48.640 in this rural county outside of Little Rock, and the 0:09:48.800 --> 0:09:56.040 judge was at that time under investigation, and the office 0:09:56.080 --> 0:10:00.000 investigating him was the Attorney General's office, headed by my husband. 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:03.840 So we were in the courtroom and this was the 0:10:03.960 --> 0:10:07.360 kind of judge back in the day who would say 0:10:07.440 --> 0:10:10.480 how pretty I looked, and asked me to stand up 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:13.760 and twirl around to show everybody what a you know, 0:10:13.840 --> 0:10:16.839 pretty dress I was wearing. On and on, we made 0:10:16.840 --> 0:10:19.160 our case and we moved to be dismissed from the case, 0:10:19.160 --> 0:10:22.760 and we were successful. So we get back to our 0:10:22.800 --> 0:10:25.080 office and the next day the senior partner calls me 0:10:25.120 --> 0:10:27.240 in and he said, well, I'm sure glad we got 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:31.280 dismissed yesterday because on one of the breaks, the judge 0:10:31.440 --> 0:10:34.160 was cursing out your husband, talking about how terrible the 0:10:34.200 --> 0:10:37.120 Attorney general was to be investigating him. So one of 0:10:37.160 --> 0:10:39.960 the other lawyers said, well, you know, your honor, that 0:10:40.120 --> 0:10:43.880 young woman that was in the courtroom, that's Bill Clinton's wife. 0:10:44.400 --> 0:10:46.160 And the judge said, well, if I've known that, I 0:10:46.200 --> 0:10:50.000 wouldn't have dismissed the case against your client. Now, that 0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:54.920 to me encapsulated, you know, the challenge of being married 0:10:54.960 --> 0:10:59.280 to a public figure but being very committed to my 0:10:59.360 --> 0:11:01.560 own professional career. 0:11:02.000 --> 0:11:03.720 I mean, I love that Bill never asked you to 0:11:03.760 --> 0:11:06.600 change your name. So when you finally when you finally 0:11:07.040 --> 0:11:09.800 took the plunge, what did he say to you? Was 0:11:09.840 --> 0:11:11.000 he kind of like banks. 0:11:11.080 --> 0:11:14.880 But yeah, yeah, he basically said, look, you know, I 0:11:14.960 --> 0:11:17.120 wish you wouldn't have to do this. I wish you 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:19.400 didn't think you had to do it. Please don't do 0:11:19.440 --> 0:11:22.240 it for me. And you know, he said everything the 0:11:22.320 --> 0:11:26.000 right thing, but he also encountered from a lot of 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:30.240 you know, his male supporters, you know, men who would say, 0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:34.000 you know, Bill, I always thought of you as a 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:37.360 really you know, strong guy, and how come you don't 0:11:37.360 --> 0:11:39.679 make your wife take you know, take your name. I mean, 0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:44.040 it was such a flash point, and it it was, 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:47.560 you know, something that I guess both of us should 0:11:47.559 --> 0:11:52.240 have predicted. Now we would be you know, just laughing 0:11:52.280 --> 0:11:55.040 at it. But look at what they make big issues 0:11:55.080 --> 0:11:59.359 out of today. So I guess we shouldn't be surprised 0:11:59.400 --> 0:12:05.600 that anything which touches a cultural hot point is going 0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:07.559 to provoke a reaction. 0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:11.120 Do you remember the first time you introduced yourself as 0:12:11.160 --> 0:12:13.280 Hillary Clinton? Oh? 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:15.480 Sure, I would. I did a press conference. I mean, 0:12:15.520 --> 0:12:19.120 you know, I was at an event and I said, look, 0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:23.160 I know this means a lot of a number of people, 0:12:23.440 --> 0:12:28.720 and I don't want their concern about you know, my 0:12:28.920 --> 0:12:32.280 last name to interfere with doing what's right. For the 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:36.120 state and making some tough decisions. So from now on 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:39.440 I will be known as Hillary Rodham Clinton. I just 0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:41.600 did it very matter of fact. I didn't make a 0:12:41.640 --> 0:12:48.160 big deal out of it, and you know, I assumed that. Okay, 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:53.000 now you can argue about me about other things. Why 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:57.360 is she still working? Why is she, you know, telling 0:12:57.360 --> 0:12:59.839 people to raise their taxes to pay for teachers? What 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:02.480 is she doing? And then later why is she fighting 0:13:02.480 --> 0:13:05.280 for healthcare and the you know, when Bill was president? 0:13:05.520 --> 0:13:09.040 So fine, if this gets you to focus on what 0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:11.640 I actually think is important, and that is how we're 0:13:11.640 --> 0:13:15.240 going to live together, make tough decisions together, let's do that. 0:13:16.120 --> 0:13:18.200 It's interesting. I mean, there was an element of a 0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:20.319 slippery slope, which is you change your name, it's met 0:13:20.360 --> 0:13:23.040 with positive reception, and then all of a sudden people 0:13:23.080 --> 0:13:25.600 are like, oh yeah, but what about your hair and 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:28.719 your glasses, your makeup, and can we get you a stylist. 0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:33.600 I'm curious to know whether changing any of these parts 0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:36.960 of yourself ever affected your self perception. 0:13:38.080 --> 0:13:41.480 You know, I never thought any of it affected my 0:13:42.400 --> 0:13:46.760 self perception or my identity, and there were parts that 0:13:47.000 --> 0:13:50.240 I ended up enjoying. You know, I finally got around 0:13:50.280 --> 0:13:53.920 to forcing myself to our contact lenses. You know, it 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:56.400 made a big difference and how I could actually see 0:13:56.440 --> 0:13:59.960 as well as be seen. I had a lot of 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:03.000 fun all of a sudden, you know, thinking, well, you know, 0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:06.320 I don't have to just wear turtlenecks and and baggy 0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:11.280 vests and you know skirts and pants or whatever. So yeah, 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:15.120 they're parts of it that were interesting that, you know, 0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:20.440 maybe I wouldn't have pursued had I not married Bill, 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:25.640 or had I not ever married anybody. But I didn't 0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:29.920 ever feel like it affected my core as to who 0:14:29.960 --> 0:14:33.080 I was. I never and I give my parents credit 0:14:33.600 --> 0:14:38.880 for this maya. I never. I never really felt like 0:14:40.480 --> 0:14:47.800 anybody was damaging me or undermining me or subverting me, 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:52.680 because I just didn't, you know, either respond to that 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:57.000 or didn't frankly allow it. So, you know, maybe it's stubbornness. 0:14:57.080 --> 0:14:59.840 Maybe it's just the you know, strength of you know, 0:15:00.240 --> 0:15:02.560 parents who never told me that there wasn't anything I 0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:07.400 couldn't do as a woman. And so I don't feel 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:11.640 like any of the sort of small choices compromises that 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:15.760 I made along the way were that significant. I did 0:15:15.840 --> 0:15:22.720 feel so strong in my own sense of being and purpose. 0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:27.560 I think that also caused a reaction, and I think 0:15:27.560 --> 0:15:31.560 that was hard for people, men and women to understand. 0:15:31.600 --> 0:15:33.720 But it's just who I am. 0:15:34.000 --> 0:15:38.680 Yeah, I do wonder whether this is so interesting because 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:42.440 it almost seems like the people of Arkansas wanted you 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:44.480 to suffer a bit more from that name change. Like 0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:47.760 I would have almost felt more satisfying if it had 0:15:47.800 --> 0:15:51.240 been a really challenging thing for you, Like maybe they 0:15:51.280 --> 0:15:53.440 were hoping you were going to give them something meaningful 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:56.800 to show how much you. 0:15:57.320 --> 0:15:59.520 I don't know how wrong i'd been. 0:15:59.760 --> 0:16:02.280 How Yeah, it's like the fact that it was easy 0:16:02.360 --> 0:16:05.000 in some sense because you're such a pragmatist right to 0:16:05.120 --> 0:16:08.040 change your last name, left people feeling like, Okay, she 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:09.960 changed a last name, but damn it. 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:12.000 But she didn't do enough. Yeah, we were trying. 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:14.760 To change her and she's not willing to change. 0:16:15.200 --> 0:16:19.840 That's one hundred percent right. That's really perceptive, Maya. That 0:16:20.000 --> 0:16:23.920 is exactly right. And this has been a constant theme 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:28.640 through my adult life. You know, there's something about women 0:16:28.760 --> 0:16:34.760 stepping into the arena, particularly being unapologetic about it, being 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:43.360 willing to stand up against or call out strong groups 0:16:43.440 --> 0:16:47.720 or interest groups or forces at work, whatever that is 0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:57.720 in and of itself still somewhat surprising and even not 0:16:57.840 --> 0:17:04.720 fully acceptable. And and so I I really did experience that, 0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:08.760 and I think I paid a price for it. I 0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:14.040 mean I think that, you know, being unapologetically outspoken and 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:21.879 willing to challenge conventional wisdom, you know, is discomforting for 0:17:21.960 --> 0:17:24.679 a lot of people. Yeah, did I put up with 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:26.840 a lot of stuff? Yeah? Did I put up with 0:17:26.840 --> 0:17:28.640 a lot of stuff when I ran for office? Yeah? 0:17:28.680 --> 0:17:31.640 Did I put up with you know, all kinds of 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:39.480 you know, sexism and misogyny. Absolutely, some I just ignored 0:17:39.640 --> 0:17:42.600 for you know, all the reasons that people women of 0:17:42.640 --> 0:17:46.200 my age ignored that stuff. Uh, it just wasn't worth 0:17:46.240 --> 0:17:46.719 the battle. 0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:50.080 Even in the case of Arkansas, you made all these 0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:52.800 superficial changes to your look and you changed your last name, 0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:56.800 but it didn't it didn't do what people were hoping 0:17:56.800 --> 0:17:58.440 to do, which is to break you a little bit, 0:17:58.600 --> 0:18:02.000 you know, to like expose some deep vulnerabilities. Because what 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:04.440 do bullies want. Ultimately, they want to get a rise 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:06.840 out of you. They want to see you crack a bit. 0:18:06.960 --> 0:18:08.840 But you know, it's so interesting. This is so interesting 0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:12.480 to me because in the twenty sixteen campaign, like, for example, 0:18:12.520 --> 0:18:15.720 the famous incident of the second debate where Trump is 0:18:15.760 --> 0:18:19.560 looming over me, leering at me and trying to intimidate me, 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:22.880 and I'm madly going through what are my options here? 0:18:22.960 --> 0:18:25.280 Do I turn around and say, back up, you creep? 0:18:25.440 --> 0:18:28.560 You know, you don't intimidate me? Do I, you know, 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:30.879 try to laugh at off? What do I do? How 0:18:30.920 --> 0:18:38.040 do I deal with what is a clearly signaled effort 0:18:38.359 --> 0:18:42.399 on his part to his supporters that he's got the 0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:46.679 little lady in hand, because he's a master manipulator. And 0:18:46.760 --> 0:18:49.800 it was hard, and eventually I decided, no, you know, 0:18:50.359 --> 0:18:52.560 I'm not going to respond. I'm not going to either 0:18:52.640 --> 0:18:56.919 laugh it off or try to, you know, expose it, 0:18:57.200 --> 0:18:59.960 because I don't want people to think I can't take it. 0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:01.800 I mean, I'm trying to be president of the United States, 0:19:01.840 --> 0:19:08.359 for heaven's sake. So this is a highly complicated calculation 0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:14.240 as a woman, and I probably would guess that women 0:19:14.480 --> 0:19:17.840 make that calculation dozens of times a day. 0:19:18.240 --> 0:19:21.719 Yeah, you know, I think this constant critique that you've 0:19:21.760 --> 0:19:24.439 gotten over the course of your whole life is we 0:19:24.520 --> 0:19:27.800 don't know the real Hillary Clinton. And I just wonder 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:31.159 and having this conversation. If that's a euphemism for we 0:19:31.240 --> 0:19:33.480 don't accept the real Hillary. 0:19:33.200 --> 0:19:38.199 Clinton is that is exactly She is not like me, 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:41.879 or she's not like the women that I know, or 0:19:41.920 --> 0:19:45.439 she's not like what I want a woman to be. 0:19:46.280 --> 0:19:50.320 You know, I used to laugh when people in the 0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:53.840 media would say, oh, you know, she yells. Have you 0:19:53.920 --> 0:19:57.760 ever gone to a rally where any man is running 0:19:57.800 --> 0:20:01.560 for anything and he doesn't at some point yell, I mean, 0:20:01.640 --> 0:20:04.560 good grief, look who I was running against in twenty sixteen, 0:20:04.680 --> 0:20:08.480 and all of the yelling that went on. But you know, 0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:12.719 that's not what we want. So this is one of 0:20:12.760 --> 0:20:18.280 the areas that is really rich for further research and understanding, 0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:20.720 because how do you communicate about that. You know, you 0:20:20.760 --> 0:20:22.840 don't want to sound like you're whining. You don't want 0:20:22.880 --> 0:20:25.040 to sound like you can't take it. You don't want 0:20:25.080 --> 0:20:28.640 to sound like you're asking for special treatment. But how 0:20:28.680 --> 0:20:30.639 do you begin to unpack that. 0:20:34.880 --> 0:20:37.000 We'll be back in a moment with a slight change 0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:47.200 of plans. When Hillary Clinton moved into the White House 0:20:47.240 --> 0:20:50.680 after her husband became president, she again challenged the cookie 0:20:50.720 --> 0:20:53.440 cutter role laid out for her, this time as First 0:20:53.520 --> 0:20:57.320 Lady of the United States. Instead of sticking to her 0:20:57.359 --> 0:21:00.720 ceremonial duties, Hillary was asked by her husband to lead 0:21:00.760 --> 0:21:04.199 the Task Force on National Healthcare Reform. It was an 0:21:04.240 --> 0:21:06.880 ambitious role that had never been given to a first 0:21:06.960 --> 0:21:11.320 lady before. She said yes, and almost immediately the public 0:21:11.359 --> 0:21:17.760 criticism began to pour in. You've been under this glaring spotlight. Right, 0:21:17.840 --> 0:21:20.840 It's unimaginable for a lot of people to be under 0:21:20.880 --> 0:21:26.359 such sustained scrutiny for so many decades. And it's almost 0:21:26.400 --> 0:21:29.280 like you've had this mirror permanently stationed in front of 0:21:29.359 --> 0:21:32.960 you that's just been reflecting things back in the form 0:21:33.000 --> 0:21:36.119 of a constructed Hillary, right, I mean, And so I 0:21:36.160 --> 0:21:39.560 do wonder like, obviously many of the things reflected back 0:21:39.600 --> 0:21:44.879 to you had been false, had been distorted. But was 0:21:44.880 --> 0:21:47.200 there ever something reflected back to you over the course 0:21:47.240 --> 0:21:50.360 of your long career that taught you something new about yourself? 0:21:51.160 --> 0:21:55.359 Yes? And you know, I think I say this often 0:21:55.440 --> 0:21:57.600 because young people ask me all the time, how do 0:21:57.600 --> 0:22:00.600 you get into politics? How do you take you know, 0:22:00.640 --> 0:22:02.879 all the attacks and everything, And I said, look, I 0:22:03.000 --> 0:22:07.600 learned to take criticism seriously, but not personally. And by 0:22:07.640 --> 0:22:13.680 that I mean your critics can teach you things that 0:22:13.920 --> 0:22:19.280 your friends either won't or don't know to. You have 0:22:19.359 --> 0:22:22.600 to be careful about where the criticism is coming from, 0:22:22.640 --> 0:22:26.200 because a lot of times it's not well meaning, it's 0:22:26.320 --> 0:22:30.280 not well intentioned at all, But you do have to 0:22:30.560 --> 0:22:34.639 at least understand and try to figure out how best 0:22:34.720 --> 0:22:41.159 to deal with it. So with respect to healthcare, I 0:22:41.440 --> 0:22:48.440 you know, I learned a lot about the perceptions shaping reality. 0:22:49.920 --> 0:22:52.280 You know. My view was that we had all these 0:22:52.320 --> 0:22:56.480 really hardworking, incredibly smart people from all over the country 0:22:56.560 --> 0:23:01.560 who were coming up with a plan that would make 0:23:01.600 --> 0:23:03.720 it possible for us to get to universal health care 0:23:03.800 --> 0:23:06.199 and make it affordable. So, I mean, I worked on 0:23:06.240 --> 0:23:10.080 that very hard to help shape it and then to 0:23:10.160 --> 0:23:16.959 help present it. But I really believe that because I 0:23:17.320 --> 0:23:21.440 was the President's wife, it was hard for a lot 0:23:21.480 --> 0:23:27.320 of people to accept the plan for what it was. 0:23:28.680 --> 0:23:32.160 And if I had known that going in, I still 0:23:32.160 --> 0:23:34.080 would have worked really hard on it, but I wouldn't 0:23:34.119 --> 0:23:37.879 have headed it. Somebody else would have been the face 0:23:38.040 --> 0:23:40.639 of it, because all I cared about was trying to 0:23:40.640 --> 0:23:43.240 get it done. And you're taking it on as the 0:23:43.280 --> 0:23:46.880 first Lady of the United States. Unpaid volunteer but nevertheless, 0:23:47.160 --> 0:23:50.119 in that role that may just be too much for 0:23:50.160 --> 0:23:53.040 the body politic to absorb. 0:23:53.640 --> 0:23:55.960 And what did that teach you about yourself in terms of, 0:23:56.600 --> 0:23:59.800 you know, where a specific blind spot was or something 0:23:59.840 --> 0:24:01.760 that you just needed to learn the hard way, like. 0:24:02.320 --> 0:24:06.760 Well, I mean, it was a very big learning curve 0:24:07.200 --> 0:24:13.919 to be in a position that was totally vicarious. You know, 0:24:15.040 --> 0:24:18.439 everybody in a White House is there for only one reason. 0:24:18.600 --> 0:24:23.119 The President wants them there. And who the president marries 0:24:23.200 --> 0:24:24.960 ends up in the White House, who the president picks 0:24:25.000 --> 0:24:26.920 his vice president ends up in the White House. All 0:24:26.960 --> 0:24:30.000 these people end up in the White House. So I 0:24:30.040 --> 0:24:34.639 didn't have agency in a way that made it my 0:24:34.840 --> 0:24:38.840 responsibility as I did when I became a senator. 0:24:40.480 --> 0:24:45.800 I do wonder whether learning this lesson when you were 0:24:45.840 --> 0:24:49.159 first lady in the White House and recognizing that you 0:24:49.920 --> 0:24:53.880 maybe didn't love playing the vicarious role ended up fueling 0:24:53.920 --> 0:24:59.320 your interest in you know, untethering yourself and running for Senate. 0:24:59.440 --> 0:25:03.040 Was that part of the evolution for you, Yes. 0:25:02.800 --> 0:25:05.680 It was. And I'll tell you the exact moment that 0:25:06.080 --> 0:25:08.760 it all came together because I had, as I said, 0:25:09.119 --> 0:25:12.080 no idea that I would ever actually run for office. 0:25:12.160 --> 0:25:16.679 And then you know, having been in the White House 0:25:16.880 --> 0:25:19.359 and knowing that it was going to end, you know, 0:25:19.640 --> 0:25:21.280 trying to think about what I was going to do 0:25:22.119 --> 0:25:26.560 next was pretty much on my mind. And after the 0:25:26.640 --> 0:25:31.280 nineteen ninety eight midterm elections, when then Senator moynihan said 0:25:31.359 --> 0:25:35.359 he wasn't going to run again, immediately Democrats in New 0:25:35.440 --> 0:25:39.440 York started calling me asking me to run. And I'm 0:25:39.480 --> 0:25:41.520 sure some of them thought I would be an excellent senator, 0:25:41.920 --> 0:25:45.119