Speaker 1: Pushkin.
Speaker 2: It is a constant balancing act. It's everything from how
Speaker 2: you dress and you know what your hairstyle is, to
Speaker 2: how loudly you speak or how loudly you laugh, or
Speaker 2: you know who you are seen with or I mean,
Speaker 2: it's just a constant judgment.
Speaker 1: Hillary Rodham Clinton's had a complicated relationship with the public.
Speaker 1: It started in the nineteen seventies when she challenged the
Speaker 1: cookie cutter roll laid out for her as First Lady
Speaker 1: of Arkansas.
Speaker 3: It all occurs to me that you really don't fit
Speaker 3: the image that we have created anymore the governor's wife
Speaker 3: in Arkansas. You're not a native, you've been educated in
Speaker 3: liberal East and universities.
Speaker 4: If you're less than forty, you don't have any children,
Speaker 4: you don't use your husband's name, you practice law. Does
Speaker 4: it concern you that maybe other people feel that you
Speaker 4: don't fit the image that we have created for the
Speaker 4: governor's wife in Arkansas.
Speaker 2: No, that doesn't bother me, and I hope that it
Speaker 2: doesn't bother very many people.
Speaker 1: But it did bother many people. Hillary being Hillary made
Speaker 1: people uncomfortable, and so one by one, her critics started
Speaker 1: asking her to change herself. Despite all her extraordinary accomplishments,
Speaker 1: including senator, secretary of state, first woman to be nominated
Speaker 1: for president by a major political party, and I mean
Speaker 1: she even won the popular vote in the twenty sixteen election.
Speaker 1: Despite all of that, people kept at it. They wanted
Speaker 1: Hillary to be different, for her to change, and she
Speaker 1: was willing to change, just never in the way that
Speaker 1: people had hoped. I'm maya Shunker and this is a
Speaker 1: slight change of plans, a show that dives deep into
Speaker 1: the world of change and hopefully gets us to think
Speaker 1: differently about change in our own lives.
Speaker 2: Hi, how are you.
Speaker 1: Hi. It's great to meet you, Secretary Clinton. I just
Speaker 1: wanted to welcome you formally to my closet. Yes, I
Speaker 1: always dreamed it would be this way, you know, the
Speaker 1: first time I met Hillary Clinton, it would be from
Speaker 1: my makeshift recording studio with clothes everywhere. But I guess
Speaker 1: this is the world we live in right now.
Speaker 2: It is the world we live in. I have been
Speaker 2: privy to many closets over the last year because as
Speaker 2: I've been doing my podcast and talking with friends on
Speaker 2: Zoom and everything, people are in closets. They're in corners
Speaker 2: of their bedroom, they're in kitchens. I mean, it's just
Speaker 2: been quite a tour of everybody's living space.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. You get an intimate glimpse into people's lives exactly.
Speaker 1: So I'm just going to jump in. Do you mind
Speaker 1: if I call you Hillary?
Speaker 2: Not at all? Oh, cannot at all.
Speaker 1: So I'd love to rewind the clock to your twenties.
Speaker 1: We can take the little time machine back in time.
Speaker 1: So you're a lawyer in DC, You've just wrapped up
Speaker 1: your work on the Nixon impeachment hearings, and then love
Speaker 1: gets in the way and you end up moving to Arkansas,
Speaker 1: and Bill becomes governor, and you are not the typical
Speaker 1: first lady, and that's met with some resistance, right. Do
Speaker 1: you mind sharing what it was that people were taking
Speaker 1: issue with.
Speaker 2: Well, I think that back in what would have been
Speaker 2: the nineteenth seventies, it was still, you know, somewhat unusual
Speaker 2: to have graduated from law school to be teaching law
Speaker 2: or practicing law. I did both, and I really saw that,
Speaker 2: but I didn't think it would impede me in any way.
Speaker 2: And then when I married Bill in nineteen seventy five,
Speaker 2: you know, I determined that I would keep my own name,
Speaker 2: which seemed to me to make a lot of sense,
Speaker 2: because that's what I had written under at law school,
Speaker 2: that's what I had practice law under taught, et cetera.
Speaker 2: And I think it was really at the point that
Speaker 2: our daughter was born in February of nineteen eighty and
Speaker 2: Bill was having to run for reelection because there were
Speaker 2: only two year terms for governors back then, and the
Speaker 2: front page announcement was Governor Bill Clinton and Hillary Rodham
Speaker 2: announced the birth of their daughter, Chelsea. It was probably
Speaker 2: that moment that really pierced people's public consciousness that oh,
Speaker 2: my gosh, she has a different name. And then that
Speaker 2: became a really big issue. And so when Bill lost
Speaker 2: for reelection in nineteen eighty in the Reagan landslide, among
Speaker 2: the top reasons people said that they didn't vote for
Speaker 2: him was because I didn't take his last name or
Speaker 2: change my name, as they would say. And it was
Speaker 2: a truly surprising revelation to me that that would matter
Speaker 2: so much to people. But now, frankly wouldn't make that
Speaker 2: big a difference to anybody, but it was significant, and
Speaker 2: I had so many people come to me and say,
Speaker 2: you really have to take your husband's last name. You're
Speaker 2: stopping him from being able to run again and be
Speaker 2: governor again, and there's a lot at stake with him
Speaker 2: being governor. And the one person who never asked me
Speaker 2: to do that was my husband. He thought it was
Speaker 2: pretty ridiculous also, but I concluded that it was, you know,
Speaker 2: for me, something that I was willing to do, and
Speaker 2: I made an announcement that I would be Hillary Rodham Clinton.
Speaker 2: And obviously it went against what I thought was my decision,
Speaker 2: but I balanced all of the pros and cons and
Speaker 2: decided that on balance, it was the right thing for
Speaker 2: me to do.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think a lot of people, women, especially face
Speaker 1: the same kind of tension, which is knowing when it
Speaker 1: makes sense to compromise. Right, Do I take a principled
Speaker 1: stance at every turn, but then risk getting kicked out
Speaker 1: of the arena altogether and then lose my ability to
Speaker 1: have impact. Or do I try to more thought fully
Speaker 1: pick my battles and stay in the arena and just
Speaker 1: play the longer game.
Speaker 2: Well, that's exactly right. I was not going to stop
Speaker 2: practicing law. I was not going to stop being outspoken
Speaker 2: about a lot of issues that really mattered to me.
Speaker 2: And when Bill was re elected in nineteen eighty two,
Speaker 2: I dove back in and shared a task force to
Speaker 2: reform education in the state, and it was I'm sure
Speaker 2: easier for some people to hear the changes I was
Speaker 2: advocating for because I was all of a sudden truly
Speaker 2: understood to be the governor's wife. So it is a
Speaker 2: constant balancing act, and I'm sure that's true for all people,
Speaker 2: but I think you're right to say that as women,
Speaker 2: we make those decisions constantly. And it's everything from how
Speaker 2: you dress and you know what your hairstyle is, to
Speaker 2: how loud you speak or how loudly you laugh, or
Speaker 2: you know who you are seen with or I mean,
Speaker 2: it's just a constant judgment both internally you're judging yourself,
Speaker 2: but most importantly how you're being judged, because there continues
Speaker 2: to be a rather active double standard.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's some really telling footage from back in the
Speaker 1: day where you're getting interviewed about your role as first Lady,
Speaker 1: and underneath your face it says Hillary Raddham and underneath
Speaker 1: that in parentheses it says missus Bill Clinton. I mean,
Speaker 1: I just laughed out loud, right, But I'm part of
Speaker 1: a different generation where yes, it just seems like, of course,
Speaker 1: I'm going to keep my last name. But I recognize
Speaker 1: that at the time that was a truly bold feminist statement.
Speaker 1: So I want to dig into that a little bit more,
Speaker 1: which is when you did first marry Bill, what fueled
Speaker 1: your decision to keep your last name.
Speaker 2: I was just you know, feeling like he was going
Speaker 2: into politics and he would have a very public life.
Speaker 2: At that time, I never thought I would personally run
Speaker 2: for office, but I thought I would stay as an advocate.
Speaker 2: I'd been, you know, working for the Children's Defense Fund,
Speaker 2: I'd been a lawyer on the impeachment inquiry staff. I'd
Speaker 2: had really fascinating important jobs for me, and I wanted
Speaker 2: my professional life to be considered separate from his. And
Speaker 2: I will tell you a funny story. Before I took
Speaker 2: his last name, I was helping on a big lawsuit
Speaker 2: in my law firm with one of the senior partners
Speaker 2: and we went to trial. And we went to trial
Speaker 2: in this rural county outside of Little Rock, and the
Speaker 2: judge was at that time under investigation, and the office
Speaker 2: investigating him was the Attorney General's office, headed by my husband.
Speaker 2: So we were in the courtroom and this was the
Speaker 2: kind of judge back in the day who would say
Speaker 2: how pretty I looked, and asked me to stand up
Speaker 2: and twirl around to show everybody what a you know,
Speaker 2: pretty dress I was wearing. On and on, we made
Speaker 2: our case and we moved to be dismissed from the case,
Speaker 2: and we were successful. So we get back to our
Speaker 2: office and the next day the senior partner calls me
Speaker 2: in and he said, well, I'm sure glad we got
Speaker 2: dismissed yesterday because on one of the breaks, the judge
Speaker 2: was cursing out your husband, talking about how terrible the
Speaker 2: Attorney general was to be investigating him. So one of
Speaker 2: the other lawyers said, well, you know, your honor, that
Speaker 2: young woman that was in the courtroom, that's Bill Clinton's wife.
Speaker 2: And the judge said, well, if I've known that, I
Speaker 2: wouldn't have dismissed the case against your client. Now, that
Speaker 2: to me encapsulated, you know, the challenge of being married
Speaker 2: to a public figure but being very committed to my
Speaker 2: own professional career.
Speaker 1: I mean, I love that Bill never asked you to
Speaker 1: change your name. So when you finally when you finally
Speaker 1: took the plunge, what did he say to you? Was
Speaker 1: he kind of like banks.
Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, he basically said, look, you know, I
Speaker 2: wish you wouldn't have to do this. I wish you
Speaker 2: didn't think you had to do it. Please don't do
Speaker 2: it for me. And you know, he said everything the
Speaker 2: right thing, but he also encountered from a lot of
Speaker 2: you know, his male supporters, you know, men who would say,
Speaker 2: you know, Bill, I always thought of you as a
Speaker 2: really you know, strong guy, and how come you don't
Speaker 2: make your wife take you know, take your name. I mean,
Speaker 2: it was such a flash point, and it it was,
Speaker 2: you know, something that I guess both of us should
Speaker 2: have predicted. Now we would be you know, just laughing
Speaker 2: at it. But look at what they make big issues
Speaker 2: out of today. So I guess we shouldn't be surprised
Speaker 2: that anything which touches a cultural hot point is going
Speaker 2: to provoke a reaction.
Speaker 1: Do you remember the first time you introduced yourself as
Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton? Oh?
Speaker 2: Sure, I would. I did a press conference. I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, I was at an event and I said, look,
Speaker 2: I know this means a lot of a number of people,
Speaker 2: and I don't want their concern about you know, my
Speaker 2: last name to interfere with doing what's right. For the
Speaker 2: state and making some tough decisions. So from now on
Speaker 2: I will be known as Hillary Rodham Clinton. I just
Speaker 2: did it very matter of fact. I didn't make a
Speaker 2: big deal out of it, and you know, I assumed that. Okay,
Speaker 2: now you can argue about me about other things. Why
Speaker 2: is she still working? Why is she, you know, telling
Speaker 2: people to raise their taxes to pay for teachers? What
Speaker 2: is she doing? And then later why is she fighting
Speaker 2: for healthcare and the you know, when Bill was president?
Speaker 2: So fine, if this gets you to focus on what
Speaker 2: I actually think is important, and that is how we're
Speaker 2: going to live together, make tough decisions together, let's do that.
Speaker 1: It's interesting. I mean, there was an element of a
Speaker 1: slippery slope, which is you change your name, it's met
Speaker 1: with positive reception, and then all of a sudden people
Speaker 1: are like, oh yeah, but what about your hair and
Speaker 1: your glasses, your makeup, and can we get you a stylist.
Speaker 1: I'm curious to know whether changing any of these parts
Speaker 1: of yourself ever affected your self perception.
Speaker 2: You know, I never thought any of it affected my
Speaker 2: self perception or my identity, and there were parts that
Speaker 2: I ended up enjoying. You know, I finally got around
Speaker 2: to forcing myself to our contact lenses. You know, it
Speaker 2: made a big difference and how I could actually see
Speaker 2: as well as be seen. I had a lot of
Speaker 2: fun all of a sudden, you know, thinking, well, you know,
Speaker 2: I don't have to just wear turtlenecks and and baggy
Speaker 2: vests and you know skirts and pants or whatever. So yeah,
Speaker 2: they're parts of it that were interesting that, you know,
Speaker 2: maybe I wouldn't have pursued had I not married Bill,
Speaker 2: or had I not ever married anybody. But I didn't
Speaker 2: ever feel like it affected my core as to who
Speaker 2: I was. I never and I give my parents credit
Speaker 2: for this maya. I never. I never really felt like
Speaker 2: anybody was damaging me or undermining me or subverting me,
Speaker 2: because I just didn't, you know, either respond to that
Speaker 2: or didn't frankly allow it. So, you know, maybe it's stubbornness.
Speaker 2: Maybe it's just the you know, strength of you know,
Speaker 2: parents who never told me that there wasn't anything I
Speaker 2: couldn't do as a woman. And so I don't feel
Speaker 2: like any of the sort of small choices compromises that
Speaker 2: I made along the way were that significant. I did
Speaker 2: feel so strong in my own sense of being and purpose.
Speaker 2: I think that also caused a reaction, and I think
Speaker 2: that was hard for people, men and women to understand.
Speaker 2: But it's just who I am.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do wonder whether this is so interesting because
Speaker 1: it almost seems like the people of Arkansas wanted you
Speaker 1: to suffer a bit more from that name change. Like
Speaker 1: I would have almost felt more satisfying if it had
Speaker 1: been a really challenging thing for you, Like maybe they
Speaker 1: were hoping you were going to give them something meaningful
Speaker 1: to show how much you.
Speaker 2: I don't know how wrong i'd been.
Speaker 1: How Yeah, it's like the fact that it was easy
Speaker 1: in some sense because you're such a pragmatist right to
Speaker 1: change your last name, left people feeling like, Okay, she
Speaker 1: changed a last name, but damn it.
Speaker 2: But she didn't do enough. Yeah, we were trying.
Speaker 1: To change her and she's not willing to change.
Speaker 2: That's one hundred percent right. That's really perceptive, Maya. That
Speaker 2: is exactly right. And this has been a constant theme
Speaker 2: through my adult life. You know, there's something about women
Speaker 2: stepping into the arena, particularly being unapologetic about it, being
Speaker 2: willing to stand up against or call out strong groups
Speaker 2: or interest groups or forces at work, whatever that is
Speaker 2: in and of itself still somewhat surprising and even not
Speaker 2: fully acceptable. And and so I I really did experience that,
Speaker 2: and I think I paid a price for it. I
Speaker 2: mean I think that, you know, being unapologetically outspoken and
Speaker 2: willing to challenge conventional wisdom, you know, is discomforting for
Speaker 2: a lot of people. Yeah, did I put up with
Speaker 2: a lot of stuff? Yeah? Did I put up with
Speaker 2: a lot of stuff when I ran for office? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Did I put up with you know, all kinds of
Speaker 2: you know, sexism and misogyny. Absolutely, some I just ignored
Speaker 2: for you know, all the reasons that people women of
Speaker 2: my age ignored that stuff. Uh, it just wasn't worth
Speaker 2: the battle.
Speaker 1: Even in the case of Arkansas, you made all these
Speaker 1: superficial changes to your look and you changed your last name,
Speaker 1: but it didn't it didn't do what people were hoping
Speaker 1: to do, which is to break you a little bit,
Speaker 1: you know, to like expose some deep vulnerabilities. Because what
Speaker 1: do bullies want. Ultimately, they want to get a rise
Speaker 1: out of you. They want to see you crack a bit.
Speaker 2: But you know, it's so interesting. This is so interesting
Speaker 2: to me because in the twenty sixteen campaign, like, for example,
Speaker 2: the famous incident of the second debate where Trump is
Speaker 2: looming over me, leering at me and trying to intimidate me,
Speaker 2: and I'm madly going through what are my options here?
Speaker 2: Do I turn around and say, back up, you creep?
Speaker 2: You know, you don't intimidate me? Do I, you know,
Speaker 2: try to laugh at off? What do I do? How
Speaker 2: do I deal with what is a clearly signaled effort
Speaker 2: on his part to his supporters that he's got the
Speaker 2: little lady in hand, because he's a master manipulator. And
Speaker 2: it was hard, and eventually I decided, no, you know,
Speaker 2: I'm not going to respond. I'm not going to either
Speaker 2: laugh it off or try to, you know, expose it,
Speaker 2: because I don't want people to think I can't take it.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm trying to be president of the United States,
Speaker 2: for heaven's sake. So this is a highly complicated calculation
Speaker 2: as a woman, and I probably would guess that women
Speaker 2: make that calculation dozens of times a day.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I think this constant critique that you've
Speaker 1: gotten over the course of your whole life is we
Speaker 1: don't know the real Hillary Clinton. And I just wonder
Speaker 1: and having this conversation. If that's a euphemism for we
Speaker 1: don't accept the real Hillary.
Speaker 2: Clinton is that is exactly She is not like me,
Speaker 2: or she's not like the women that I know, or
Speaker 2: she's not like what I want a woman to be.
Speaker 2: You know, I used to laugh when people in the
Speaker 2: media would say, oh, you know, she yells. Have you
Speaker 2: ever gone to a rally where any man is running
Speaker 2: for anything and he doesn't at some point yell, I mean,
Speaker 2: good grief, look who I was running against in twenty sixteen,
Speaker 2: and all of the yelling that went on. But you know,
Speaker 2: that's not what we want. So this is one of
Speaker 2: the areas that is really rich for further research and understanding,
Speaker 2: because how do you communicate about that. You know, you
Speaker 2: don't want to sound like you're whining. You don't want
Speaker 2: to sound like you can't take it. You don't want
Speaker 2: to sound like you're asking for special treatment. But how
Speaker 2: do you begin to unpack that.
Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with a slight change
Speaker 1: of plans. When Hillary Clinton moved into the White House
Speaker 1: after her husband became president, she again challenged the cookie
Speaker 1: cutter role laid out for her, this time as First
Speaker 1: Lady of the United States. Instead of sticking to her
Speaker 1: ceremonial duties, Hillary was asked by her husband to lead
Speaker 1: the Task Force on National Healthcare Reform. It was an
Speaker 1: ambitious role that had never been given to a first
Speaker 1: lady before. She said yes, and almost immediately the public
Speaker 1: criticism began to pour in. You've been under this glaring spotlight. Right,
Speaker 1: It's unimaginable for a lot of people to be under
Speaker 1: such sustained scrutiny for so many decades. And it's almost
Speaker 1: like you've had this mirror permanently stationed in front of
Speaker 1: you that's just been reflecting things back in the form
Speaker 1: of a constructed Hillary, right, I mean, And so I
Speaker 1: do wonder like, obviously many of the things reflected back
Speaker 1: to you had been false, had been distorted. But was
Speaker 1: there ever something reflected back to you over the course
Speaker 1: of your long career that taught you something new about yourself?
Speaker 2: Yes? And you know, I think I say this often
Speaker 2: because young people ask me all the time, how do
Speaker 2: you get into politics? How do you take you know,
Speaker 2: all the attacks and everything, And I said, look, I
Speaker 2: learned to take criticism seriously, but not personally. And by
Speaker 2: that I mean your critics can teach you things that
Speaker 2: your friends either won't or don't know to. You have
Speaker 2: to be careful about where the criticism is coming from,
Speaker 2: because a lot of times it's not well meaning, it's
Speaker 2: not well intentioned at all, But you do have to
Speaker 2: at least understand and try to figure out how best
Speaker 2: to deal with it. So with respect to healthcare, I
Speaker 2: you know, I learned a lot about the perceptions shaping reality.
Speaker 2: You know. My view was that we had all these
Speaker 2: really hardworking, incredibly smart people from all over the country
Speaker 2: who were coming up with a plan that would make
Speaker 2: it possible for us to get to universal health care
Speaker 2: and make it affordable. So, I mean, I worked on
Speaker 2: that very hard to help shape it and then to
Speaker 2: help present it. But I really believe that because I
Speaker 2: was the President's wife, it was hard for a lot
Speaker 2: of people to accept the plan for what it was.
Speaker 2: And if I had known that going in, I still
Speaker 2: would have worked really hard on it, but I wouldn't
Speaker 2: have headed it. Somebody else would have been the face
Speaker 2: of it, because all I cared about was trying to
Speaker 2: get it done. And you're taking it on as the
Speaker 2: first Lady of the United States. Unpaid volunteer but nevertheless,
Speaker 2: in that role that may just be too much for
Speaker 2: the body politic to absorb.
Speaker 1: And what did that teach you about yourself in terms of,
Speaker 1: you know, where a specific blind spot was or something
Speaker 1: that you just needed to learn the hard way, like.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, it was a very big learning curve
Speaker 2: to be in a position that was totally vicarious. You know,
Speaker 2: everybody in a White House is there for only one reason.
Speaker 2: The President wants them there. And who the president marries
Speaker 2: ends up in the White House, who the president picks
Speaker 2: his vice president ends up in the White House. All
Speaker 2: these people end up in the White House. So I
Speaker 2: didn't have agency in a way that made it my
Speaker 2: responsibility as I did when I became a senator.
Speaker 1: I do wonder whether learning this lesson when you were
Speaker 1: first lady in the White House and recognizing that you
Speaker 1: maybe didn't love playing the vicarious role ended up fueling
Speaker 1: your interest in you know, untethering yourself and running for Senate.
Speaker 1: Was that part of the evolution for you, Yes.
Speaker 2: It was. And I'll tell you the exact moment that
Speaker 2: it all came together because I had, as I said,
Speaker 2: no idea that I would ever actually run for office.
Speaker 2: And then you know, having been in the White House
Speaker 2: and knowing that it was going to end, you know,
Speaker 2: trying to think about what I was going to do
Speaker 2: next was pretty much on my mind. And after the
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety eight midterm elections, when then Senator moynihan said
Speaker 2: he wasn't going to run again, immediately Democrats in New
Speaker 2: York started calling me asking me to run. And I'm
Speaker 2: sure some of them thought I would be an excellent senator,
Speaker 2: but a lot of them thought that I was the
Speaker 2: only person that could think of who was available who
Speaker 2: could beat Rudy Giuliani, who was running. So, you know,
Speaker 2: he had been mayor, he was obviously controversial, he was
Speaker 2: obviously tough in all of that.
Speaker 1: So we hadn't seen anything yet, which no, I'm.
Speaker 2: Saying, well, he lost his mind. I think I don't
Speaker 2: know what happened to him. But so people started calling
Speaker 2: me members of Congress and others, and I kept saying no, no, no,
Speaker 2: no no. And then in the spring of ninety nine,
Speaker 2: I was as first Lady in New York City at
Speaker 2: a high school to promote women's sports. It was like
Speaker 2: a Title nine event, and there was a new documentary
Speaker 2: coming out about women in sports, and the name of
Speaker 2: the documentary was Dare to Compete. And of course, you know,
Speaker 2: the New York papers are filled with people trying to
Speaker 2: get me to run, and my saying, you know, no,
Speaker 2: et cetera. And the young woman who introduced me captain
Speaker 2: of you know, basketball team, she introduced me, and then
Speaker 2: she bent over and she whispered in my ear, dare
Speaker 2: to compete, missus Clinton, dare to compete. I was so
Speaker 2: astonished by that, because, you know, I had spent many
Speaker 2: years urging women to compete, you know, in sports and
Speaker 2: academics and science, in politics, I campaigned for dozens of
Speaker 2: women running for Congress or governor, whatever election it was.
Speaker 2: And I suddenly thought to myself, maybe you're afraid to compete.
Speaker 2: Maybe you are telling people to do something that you
Speaker 2: wouldn't do yourself. And it was literally at that moment
Speaker 2: that I took seriously running for the Senate and working
Speaker 2: through it and trying to be as honest with myself
Speaker 2: as I could. I thought, Okay, I'm going to try this,
Speaker 2: And I had no idea whether it would work or not,
Speaker 2: because when you're supporting somebody else, and I'd support it,
Speaker 2: not just my husband. But you know, hundreds of people,
Speaker 2: you know, it's always about them, and then all of
Speaker 2: a sudden, you know it's about you. And so it was.
Speaker 2: It was a big trans but it was well that
Speaker 2: young woman at that moment that really, I think turned
Speaker 2: my head around.
Speaker 1: What do you think you were scared of?
Speaker 2: I think it was just the unknown. I think it
Speaker 2: was knowing how hard politics is, because honestly, I'm kind
Speaker 2: of an expert on that. I thought, you know, I'm
Speaker 2: just going to be walking into the meat grinder. It's been,
Speaker 2: you know, a very eventful eight years. I could go teach,
Speaker 2: or write or do all kinds of interesting things. Why
Speaker 2: do I want to do that? You know? Why do
Speaker 2: I want to subject myself to that? And and remember
Speaker 2: I had been burned in effigy along with other things,
Speaker 2: so I knew I was already again because of all
Speaker 2: the stuff I represented as a I don't know, baby
Speaker 2: boomer woman who you know, didn't know her place. I
Speaker 2: guess I had been, you know, subjected to so many attacks,
Speaker 2: Rush Limbaugh and all the people like that. Why did
Speaker 2: I want to do that? Why? And then I kind
Speaker 2: of thought, Okay, you have been and you also believe
Speaker 2: that there's a lot of things we need to do.
Speaker 2: You've had a front row seat on history, so get
Speaker 2: out there and try. You never know until you try.
Speaker 2: So that's what I ended up doing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's easy for people to think of
Speaker 1: you now and say Hillary Clinton came out of the
Speaker 1: box this way, right, she was she always had the
Speaker 1: courage and bravery to run for these big offices. But
Speaker 1: you know, you had to go through your own personal
Speaker 1: evolution just like every other person out there. What were
Speaker 1: some if you don't mind sharing, like, what were some
Speaker 1: insecurities that you had along the way that you had
Speaker 1: to work through?
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. You know, once you're out there on
Speaker 2: your own, you're not there to advocate for a program
Speaker 2: or advocate for a candidate. You know, I think we're
Speaker 2: you going to be any good at it? You know,
Speaker 2: you go from behind the scenes to the front of
Speaker 2: the stage, and how are people going to respond to you?
Speaker 2: And are they going to believe you, listen to you,
Speaker 2: agree with you? Is your personality? Is it going to
Speaker 2: be enough? So yeah, I mean there's a lot of criticism,
Speaker 2: and then you know, you get all of the gendered criticism,
Speaker 2: like don't wear that color? Wear this color, don't wear
Speaker 2: flat shoes, wear heels or vice versa. Don't let your
Speaker 2: hair grow, don't let your hair be short. I mean,
Speaker 2: everybody feels like they can critique a woman in the
Speaker 2: public arena. They don't do that to men, you know,
Speaker 2: ninety nine point nine percent of the time. And I
Speaker 2: had some of the same experience when I practiced law,
Speaker 2: because you know, there were expectations about what a woman
Speaker 2: lawyer should look like. So I wasn't totally surprised, but
Speaker 2: the amount of unsolicited advice that you start to receive,
Speaker 2: and people say things like, you know, learn to talk
Speaker 2: like then they always feel in a man's name, like
Speaker 2: learn to talk like Bill Clinton, learn to talk like
Speaker 2: Winston Churchill. I remember somebody said, you know, all of
Speaker 2: these kind of you know, expectations that are not at
Speaker 2: all who you are, and what you have to do
Speaker 2: is just learn to be yourself and just be yourself
Speaker 2: and do the best you can, and then you know
Speaker 2: you'll either be successful or not, but at least you'll
Speaker 2: be true to yourself.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I have been pretty much the same person since I
Speaker 2: was a little girl, and I think your insights into
Speaker 2: how that rattled a lot of people in terms of
Speaker 2: what was to be expected. But I also think that
Speaker 2: it still is affecting women across the board in every
Speaker 2: walk of life, and so you have to first of
Speaker 2: all be at peace with who you are, then try
Speaker 2: to translate that into the role you're playing in an
Speaker 2: effective way, whether it's private or personal or public, and
Speaker 2: just get the most out of every day.
Speaker 1: Hey, thanks for listening. See you next week when I'm
Speaker 1: going to be talking to change expert doctor Katie Milkman
Speaker 1: about science based strategies to help you inspire change in
Speaker 1: your own life.
Speaker 5: And I was in this seminar and a graph went up,
Speaker 5: which normally doesn't change your life, but this graph changed
Speaker 5: my life. The graph just showed a breakdown of how
Speaker 5: many premature deaths are due to different causes, and forty
Speaker 5: percent of premature deaths turn out to be the result
Speaker 5: of decisions that we can change.
Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans is created and executive produced
Speaker 1: by me Maya Schunker Bigue. Thanks to everyone at Pushkin Industries,
Speaker 1: including our producer Mola Board, associate producers David Jaw and
Speaker 1: Julia Goodman, Executive producers Meia Lavelle and Justin Lange. Senior
Speaker 1: editor Jen Guera, and sound design and mixed engineers Ben
Speaker 1: Holliday and Jason Gambrell. Thanks also to Louis Scara, who
Speaker 1: wrote our theme song, and Ginger Smith who helped arrange
Speaker 1: the vocals, incidental music from Epidemic Sound, and of course
Speaker 1: a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow
Speaker 1: a slight change of plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker.
Speaker 2: If we hadn't talked so much about me, I have
Speaker 2: a lot of questions for you.
Speaker 1: I think you're slightly more interesting than me, so I'm
Speaker 1: glad we spent the time this way. It was such
Speaker 1: a pleasure.
Speaker 2: Good luck to you, and I hope I get to
Speaker 2: meet you in person. Take care, Yes, I hope so too.
Speaker 2: All Right, take care, okay, bye bye,