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Speaker 1: Pushkin.

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Speaker 2: It is a constant balancing act. It's everything from how

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Speaker 2: you dress and you know what your hairstyle is, to

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Speaker 2: how loudly you speak or how loudly you laugh, or

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Speaker 2: you know who you are seen with or I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's just a constant judgment.

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Speaker 1: Hillary Rodham Clinton's had a complicated relationship with the public.

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Speaker 1: It started in the nineteen seventies when she challenged the

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Speaker 1: cookie cutter roll laid out for her as First Lady

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Speaker 1: of Arkansas.

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Speaker 3: It all occurs to me that you really don't fit

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Speaker 3: the image that we have created anymore the governor's wife

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Speaker 3: in Arkansas. You're not a native, you've been educated in

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Speaker 3: liberal East and universities.

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Speaker 4: If you're less than forty, you don't have any children,

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Speaker 4: you don't use your husband's name, you practice law. Does

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Speaker 4: it concern you that maybe other people feel that you

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Speaker 4: don't fit the image that we have created for the

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Speaker 4: governor's wife in Arkansas.

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Speaker 2: No, that doesn't bother me, and I hope that it

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Speaker 2: doesn't bother very many people.

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Speaker 1: But it did bother many people. Hillary being Hillary made

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Speaker 1: people uncomfortable, and so one by one, her critics started

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Speaker 1: asking her to change herself. Despite all her extraordinary accomplishments,

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Speaker 1: including senator, secretary of state, first woman to be nominated

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Speaker 1: for president by a major political party, and I mean

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Speaker 1: she even won the popular vote in the twenty sixteen election.

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Speaker 1: Despite all of that, people kept at it. They wanted

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Speaker 1: Hillary to be different, for her to change, and she

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Speaker 1: was willing to change, just never in the way that

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Speaker 1: people had hoped. I'm maya Shunker and this is a

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Speaker 1: slight change of plans, a show that dives deep into

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Speaker 1: the world of change and hopefully gets us to think

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Speaker 1: differently about change in our own lives.

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Speaker 2: Hi, how are you.

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Speaker 1: Hi. It's great to meet you, Secretary Clinton. I just

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Speaker 1: wanted to welcome you formally to my closet. Yes, I

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Speaker 1: always dreamed it would be this way, you know, the

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Speaker 1: first time I met Hillary Clinton, it would be from

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Speaker 1: my makeshift recording studio with clothes everywhere. But I guess

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Speaker 1: this is the world we live in right now.

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Speaker 2: It is the world we live in. I have been

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Speaker 2: privy to many closets over the last year because as

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Speaker 2: I've been doing my podcast and talking with friends on

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Speaker 2: Zoom and everything, people are in closets. They're in corners

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Speaker 2: of their bedroom, they're in kitchens. I mean, it's just

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Speaker 2: been quite a tour of everybody's living space.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. You get an intimate glimpse into people's lives exactly.

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Speaker 1: So I'm just going to jump in. Do you mind

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Speaker 1: if I call you Hillary?

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Speaker 2: Not at all? Oh, cannot at all.

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Speaker 1: So I'd love to rewind the clock to your twenties.

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Speaker 1: We can take the little time machine back in time.

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Speaker 1: So you're a lawyer in DC, You've just wrapped up

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Speaker 1: your work on the Nixon impeachment hearings, and then love

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Speaker 1: gets in the way and you end up moving to Arkansas,

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Speaker 1: and Bill becomes governor, and you are not the typical

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Speaker 1: first lady, and that's met with some resistance, right. Do

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Speaker 1: you mind sharing what it was that people were taking

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Speaker 1: issue with.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think that back in what would have been

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Speaker 2: the nineteenth seventies, it was still, you know, somewhat unusual

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Speaker 2: to have graduated from law school to be teaching law

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Speaker 2: or practicing law. I did both, and I really saw that,

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Speaker 2: but I didn't think it would impede me in any way.

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Speaker 2: And then when I married Bill in nineteen seventy five,

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Speaker 2: you know, I determined that I would keep my own name,

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Speaker 2: which seemed to me to make a lot of sense,

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Speaker 2: because that's what I had written under at law school,

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Speaker 2: that's what I had practice law under taught, et cetera.

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Speaker 2: And I think it was really at the point that

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Speaker 2: our daughter was born in February of nineteen eighty and

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Speaker 2: Bill was having to run for reelection because there were

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Speaker 2: only two year terms for governors back then, and the

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Speaker 2: front page announcement was Governor Bill Clinton and Hillary Rodham

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Speaker 2: announced the birth of their daughter, Chelsea. It was probably

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Speaker 2: that moment that really pierced people's public consciousness that oh,

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Speaker 2: my gosh, she has a different name. And then that

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Speaker 2: became a really big issue. And so when Bill lost

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Speaker 2: for reelection in nineteen eighty in the Reagan landslide, among

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Speaker 2: the top reasons people said that they didn't vote for

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Speaker 2: him was because I didn't take his last name or

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Speaker 2: change my name, as they would say. And it was

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Speaker 2: a truly surprising revelation to me that that would matter

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Speaker 2: so much to people. But now, frankly wouldn't make that

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Speaker 2: big a difference to anybody, but it was significant, and

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Speaker 2: I had so many people come to me and say,

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Speaker 2: you really have to take your husband's last name. You're

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Speaker 2: stopping him from being able to run again and be

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Speaker 2: governor again, and there's a lot at stake with him

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Speaker 2: being governor. And the one person who never asked me

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Speaker 2: to do that was my husband. He thought it was

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Speaker 2: pretty ridiculous also, but I concluded that it was, you know,

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Speaker 2: for me, something that I was willing to do, and

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Speaker 2: I made an announcement that I would be Hillary Rodham Clinton.

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Speaker 2: And obviously it went against what I thought was my decision,

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Speaker 2: but I balanced all of the pros and cons and

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Speaker 2: decided that on balance, it was the right thing for

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Speaker 2: me to do.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I think a lot of people, women, especially face

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Speaker 1: the same kind of tension, which is knowing when it

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Speaker 1: makes sense to compromise. Right, Do I take a principled

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Speaker 1: stance at every turn, but then risk getting kicked out

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Speaker 1: of the arena altogether and then lose my ability to

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Speaker 1: have impact. Or do I try to more thought fully

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Speaker 1: pick my battles and stay in the arena and just

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Speaker 1: play the longer game.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's exactly right. I was not going to stop

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Speaker 2: practicing law. I was not going to stop being outspoken

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Speaker 2: about a lot of issues that really mattered to me.

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Speaker 2: And when Bill was re elected in nineteen eighty two,

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Speaker 2: I dove back in and shared a task force to

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Speaker 2: reform education in the state, and it was I'm sure

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Speaker 2: easier for some people to hear the changes I was

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Speaker 2: advocating for because I was all of a sudden truly

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Speaker 2: understood to be the governor's wife. So it is a

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Speaker 2: constant balancing act, and I'm sure that's true for all people,

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Speaker 2: but I think you're right to say that as women,

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Speaker 2: we make those decisions constantly. And it's everything from how

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Speaker 2: you dress and you know what your hairstyle is, to

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Speaker 2: how loud you speak or how loudly you laugh, or

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Speaker 2: you know who you are seen with or I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's just a constant judgment both internally you're judging yourself,

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Speaker 2: but most importantly how you're being judged, because there continues

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Speaker 2: to be a rather active double standard.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's some really telling footage from back in the

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Speaker 1: day where you're getting interviewed about your role as first Lady,

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Speaker 1: and underneath your face it says Hillary Raddham and underneath

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Speaker 1: that in parentheses it says missus Bill Clinton. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I just laughed out loud, right, But I'm part of

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Speaker 1: a different generation where yes, it just seems like, of course,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to keep my last name. But I recognize

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Speaker 1: that at the time that was a truly bold feminist statement.

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Speaker 1: So I want to dig into that a little bit more,

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Speaker 1: which is when you did first marry Bill, what fueled

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Speaker 1: your decision to keep your last name.

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Speaker 2: I was just you know, feeling like he was going

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Speaker 2: into politics and he would have a very public life.

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Speaker 2: At that time, I never thought I would personally run

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Speaker 2: for office, but I thought I would stay as an advocate.

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Speaker 2: I'd been, you know, working for the Children's Defense Fund,

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Speaker 2: I'd been a lawyer on the impeachment inquiry staff. I'd

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Speaker 2: had really fascinating important jobs for me, and I wanted

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Speaker 2: my professional life to be considered separate from his. And

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Speaker 2: I will tell you a funny story. Before I took

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Speaker 2: his last name, I was helping on a big lawsuit

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Speaker 2: in my law firm with one of the senior partners

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Speaker 2: and we went to trial. And we went to trial

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Speaker 2: in this rural county outside of Little Rock, and the

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Speaker 2: judge was at that time under investigation, and the office

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Speaker 2: investigating him was the Attorney General's office, headed by my husband.

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Speaker 2: So we were in the courtroom and this was the

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Speaker 2: kind of judge back in the day who would say

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Speaker 2: how pretty I looked, and asked me to stand up

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Speaker 2: and twirl around to show everybody what a you know,

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Speaker 2: pretty dress I was wearing. On and on, we made

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Speaker 2: our case and we moved to be dismissed from the case,

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Speaker 2: and we were successful. So we get back to our

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Speaker 2: office and the next day the senior partner calls me

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Speaker 2: in and he said, well, I'm sure glad we got

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Speaker 2: dismissed yesterday because on one of the breaks, the judge

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Speaker 2: was cursing out your husband, talking about how terrible the

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Speaker 2: Attorney general was to be investigating him. So one of

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Speaker 2: the other lawyers said, well, you know, your honor, that

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Speaker 2: young woman that was in the courtroom, that's Bill Clinton's wife.

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Speaker 2: And the judge said, well, if I've known that, I

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Speaker 2: wouldn't have dismissed the case against your client. Now, that

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Speaker 2: to me encapsulated, you know, the challenge of being married

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Speaker 2: to a public figure but being very committed to my

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Speaker 2: own professional career.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I love that Bill never asked you to

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Speaker 1: change your name. So when you finally when you finally

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Speaker 1: took the plunge, what did he say to you? Was

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Speaker 1: he kind of like banks.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, he basically said, look, you know, I

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Speaker 2: wish you wouldn't have to do this. I wish you

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Speaker 2: didn't think you had to do it. Please don't do

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Speaker 2: it for me. And you know, he said everything the

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Speaker 2: right thing, but he also encountered from a lot of

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Speaker 2: you know, his male supporters, you know, men who would say,

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Speaker 2: you know, Bill, I always thought of you as a

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Speaker 2: really you know, strong guy, and how come you don't

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Speaker 2: make your wife take you know, take your name. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it was such a flash point, and it it was,

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Speaker 2: you know, something that I guess both of us should

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Speaker 2: have predicted. Now we would be you know, just laughing

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Speaker 2: at it. But look at what they make big issues

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Speaker 2: out of today. So I guess we shouldn't be surprised

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Speaker 2: that anything which touches a cultural hot point is going

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Speaker 2: to provoke a reaction.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember the first time you introduced yourself as

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Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton? Oh?

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Speaker 2: Sure, I would. I did a press conference. I mean,

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Speaker 2: you know, I was at an event and I said, look,

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Speaker 2: I know this means a lot of a number of people,

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Speaker 2: and I don't want their concern about you know, my

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Speaker 2: last name to interfere with doing what's right. For the

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Speaker 2: state and making some tough decisions. So from now on

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Speaker 2: I will be known as Hillary Rodham Clinton. I just

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Speaker 2: did it very matter of fact. I didn't make a

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Speaker 2: big deal out of it, and you know, I assumed that. Okay,

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Speaker 2: now you can argue about me about other things. Why

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Speaker 2: is she still working? Why is she, you know, telling

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Speaker 2: people to raise their taxes to pay for teachers? What

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Speaker 2: is she doing? And then later why is she fighting

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Speaker 2: for healthcare and the you know, when Bill was president?

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Speaker 2: So fine, if this gets you to focus on what

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Speaker 2: I actually think is important, and that is how we're

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Speaker 2: going to live together, make tough decisions together, let's do that.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting. I mean, there was an element of a

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Speaker 1: slippery slope, which is you change your name, it's met

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Speaker 1: with positive reception, and then all of a sudden people

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Speaker 1: are like, oh yeah, but what about your hair and

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Speaker 1: your glasses, your makeup, and can we get you a stylist.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious to know whether changing any of these parts

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Speaker 1: of yourself ever affected your self perception.

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Speaker 2: You know, I never thought any of it affected my

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Speaker 2: self perception or my identity, and there were parts that

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Speaker 2: I ended up enjoying. You know, I finally got around

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Speaker 2: to forcing myself to our contact lenses. You know, it

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Speaker 2: made a big difference and how I could actually see

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Speaker 2: as well as be seen. I had a lot of

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Speaker 2: fun all of a sudden, you know, thinking, well, you know,

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Speaker 2: I don't have to just wear turtlenecks and and baggy

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Speaker 2: vests and you know skirts and pants or whatever. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: they're parts of it that were interesting that, you know,

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Speaker 2: maybe I wouldn't have pursued had I not married Bill,

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Speaker 2: or had I not ever married anybody. But I didn't

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Speaker 2: ever feel like it affected my core as to who

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Speaker 2: I was. I never and I give my parents credit

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Speaker 2: for this maya. I never. I never really felt like

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Speaker 2: anybody was damaging me or undermining me or subverting me,

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Speaker 2: because I just didn't, you know, either respond to that

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Speaker 2: or didn't frankly allow it. So, you know, maybe it's stubbornness.

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Speaker 2: Maybe it's just the you know, strength of you know,

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Speaker 2: parents who never told me that there wasn't anything I

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Speaker 2: couldn't do as a woman. And so I don't feel

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Speaker 2: like any of the sort of small choices compromises that

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Speaker 2: I made along the way were that significant. I did

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Speaker 2: feel so strong in my own sense of being and purpose.

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Speaker 2: I think that also caused a reaction, and I think

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Speaker 2: that was hard for people, men and women to understand.

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Speaker 2: But it's just who I am.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I do wonder whether this is so interesting because

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Speaker 1: it almost seems like the people of Arkansas wanted you

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Speaker 1: to suffer a bit more from that name change. Like

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Speaker 1: I would have almost felt more satisfying if it had

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Speaker 1: been a really challenging thing for you, Like maybe they

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Speaker 1: were hoping you were going to give them something meaningful

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Speaker 1: to show how much you.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how wrong i'd been.

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Speaker 1: How Yeah, it's like the fact that it was easy

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Speaker 1: in some sense because you're such a pragmatist right to

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Speaker 1: change your last name, left people feeling like, Okay, she

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Speaker 1: changed a last name, but damn it.

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Speaker 2: But she didn't do enough. Yeah, we were trying.

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Speaker 1: To change her and she's not willing to change.

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Speaker 2: That's one hundred percent right. That's really perceptive, Maya. That

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Speaker 2: is exactly right. And this has been a constant theme

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Speaker 2: through my adult life. You know, there's something about women

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Speaker 2: stepping into the arena, particularly being unapologetic about it, being

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Speaker 2: willing to stand up against or call out strong groups

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Speaker 2: or interest groups or forces at work, whatever that is

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Speaker 2: in and of itself still somewhat surprising and even not

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Speaker 2: fully acceptable. And and so I I really did experience that,

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Speaker 2: and I think I paid a price for it. I

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Speaker 2: mean I think that, you know, being unapologetically outspoken and

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Speaker 2: willing to challenge conventional wisdom, you know, is discomforting for

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Speaker 2: a lot of people. Yeah, did I put up with

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Speaker 2: a lot of stuff? Yeah? Did I put up with

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Speaker 2: a lot of stuff when I ran for office? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Did I put up with you know, all kinds of

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Speaker 2: you know, sexism and misogyny. Absolutely, some I just ignored

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Speaker 2: for you know, all the reasons that people women of

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Speaker 2: my age ignored that stuff. Uh, it just wasn't worth

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Speaker 2: the battle.

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Speaker 1: Even in the case of Arkansas, you made all these

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Speaker 1: superficial changes to your look and you changed your last name,

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Speaker 1: but it didn't it didn't do what people were hoping

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Speaker 1: to do, which is to break you a little bit,

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Speaker 1: you know, to like expose some deep vulnerabilities. Because what

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Speaker 1: do bullies want. Ultimately, they want to get a rise

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Speaker 1: out of you. They want to see you crack a bit.

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Speaker 2: But you know, it's so interesting. This is so interesting

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Speaker 2: to me because in the twenty sixteen campaign, like, for example,

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Speaker 2: the famous incident of the second debate where Trump is

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Speaker 2: looming over me, leering at me and trying to intimidate me,

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Speaker 2: and I'm madly going through what are my options here?

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Speaker 2: Do I turn around and say, back up, you creep?

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Speaker 2: You know, you don't intimidate me? Do I, you know,

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Speaker 2: try to laugh at off? What do I do? How

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Speaker 2: do I deal with what is a clearly signaled effort

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Speaker 2: on his part to his supporters that he's got the

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Speaker 2: little lady in hand, because he's a master manipulator. And

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Speaker 2: it was hard, and eventually I decided, no, you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to respond. I'm not going to either

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Speaker 2: laugh it off or try to, you know, expose it,

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Speaker 2: because I don't want people to think I can't take it.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I'm trying to be president of the United States,

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Speaker 2: for heaven's sake. So this is a highly complicated calculation

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Speaker 2: as a woman, and I probably would guess that women

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Speaker 2: make that calculation dozens of times a day.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I think this constant critique that you've

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Speaker 1: gotten over the course of your whole life is we

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Speaker 1: don't know the real Hillary Clinton. And I just wonder

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Speaker 1: and having this conversation. If that's a euphemism for we

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Speaker 1: don't accept the real Hillary.

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Speaker 2: Clinton is that is exactly She is not like me,

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Speaker 2: or she's not like the women that I know, or

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Speaker 2: she's not like what I want a woman to be.

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Speaker 2: You know, I used to laugh when people in the

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Speaker 2: media would say, oh, you know, she yells. Have you

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Speaker 2: ever gone to a rally where any man is running

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Speaker 2: for anything and he doesn't at some point yell, I mean,

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Speaker 2: good grief, look who I was running against in twenty sixteen,

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Speaker 2: and all of the yelling that went on. But you know,

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Speaker 2: that's not what we want. So this is one of

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Speaker 2: the areas that is really rich for further research and understanding,

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Speaker 2: because how do you communicate about that. You know, you

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Speaker 2: don't want to sound like you're whining. You don't want

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Speaker 2: to sound like you can't take it. You don't want

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Speaker 2: to sound like you're asking for special treatment. But how

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Speaker 2: do you begin to unpack that.

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Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with a slight change

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Speaker 1: of plans. When Hillary Clinton moved into the White House

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Speaker 1: after her husband became president, she again challenged the cookie

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Speaker 1: cutter role laid out for her, this time as First

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Speaker 1: Lady of the United States. Instead of sticking to her

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Speaker 1: ceremonial duties, Hillary was asked by her husband to lead

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Speaker 1: the Task Force on National Healthcare Reform. It was an

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Speaker 1: ambitious role that had never been given to a first

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Speaker 1: lady before. She said yes, and almost immediately the public

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Speaker 1: criticism began to pour in. You've been under this glaring spotlight. Right,

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Speaker 1: It's unimaginable for a lot of people to be under

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Speaker 1: such sustained scrutiny for so many decades. And it's almost

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Speaker 1: like you've had this mirror permanently stationed in front of

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Speaker 1: you that's just been reflecting things back in the form

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Speaker 1: of a constructed Hillary, right, I mean, And so I

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Speaker 1: do wonder like, obviously many of the things reflected back

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Speaker 1: to you had been false, had been distorted. But was

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Speaker 1: there ever something reflected back to you over the course

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Speaker 1: of your long career that taught you something new about yourself?

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Speaker 2: Yes? And you know, I think I say this often

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Speaker 2: because young people ask me all the time, how do

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Speaker 2: you get into politics? How do you take you know,

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Speaker 2: all the attacks and everything, And I said, look, I

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Speaker 2: learned to take criticism seriously, but not personally. And by

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Speaker 2: that I mean your critics can teach you things that

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Speaker 2: your friends either won't or don't know to. You have

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Speaker 2: to be careful about where the criticism is coming from,

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Speaker 2: because a lot of times it's not well meaning, it's

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Speaker 2: not well intentioned at all, But you do have to

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Speaker 2: at least understand and try to figure out how best

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Speaker 2: to deal with it. So with respect to healthcare, I

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Speaker 2: you know, I learned a lot about the perceptions shaping reality.

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Speaker 2: You know. My view was that we had all these

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Speaker 2: really hardworking, incredibly smart people from all over the country

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Speaker 2: who were coming up with a plan that would make

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Speaker 2: it possible for us to get to universal health care

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Speaker 2: and make it affordable. So, I mean, I worked on

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Speaker 2: that very hard to help shape it and then to

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Speaker 2: help present it. But I really believe that because I

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Speaker 2: was the President's wife, it was hard for a lot

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Speaker 2: of people to accept the plan for what it was.

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Speaker 2: And if I had known that going in, I still

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Speaker 2: would have worked really hard on it, but I wouldn't

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Speaker 2: have headed it. Somebody else would have been the face

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Speaker 2: of it, because all I cared about was trying to

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Speaker 2: get it done. And you're taking it on as the

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Speaker 2: first Lady of the United States. Unpaid volunteer but nevertheless,

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Speaker 2: in that role that may just be too much for

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Speaker 2: the body politic to absorb.

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Speaker 1: And what did that teach you about yourself in terms of,

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Speaker 1: you know, where a specific blind spot was or something

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Speaker 1: that you just needed to learn the hard way, like.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, it was a very big learning curve

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Speaker 2: to be in a position that was totally vicarious. You know,

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Speaker 2: everybody in a White House is there for only one reason.

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Speaker 2: The President wants them there. And who the president marries

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Speaker 2: ends up in the White House, who the president picks

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Speaker 2: his vice president ends up in the White House. All

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Speaker 2: these people end up in the White House. So I

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Speaker 2: didn't have agency in a way that made it my

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Speaker 2: responsibility as I did when I became a senator.

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Speaker 1: I do wonder whether learning this lesson when you were

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Speaker 1: first lady in the White House and recognizing that you

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Speaker 1: maybe didn't love playing the vicarious role ended up fueling

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Speaker 1: your interest in you know, untethering yourself and running for Senate.

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Speaker 1: Was that part of the evolution for you, Yes.

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Speaker 2: It was. And I'll tell you the exact moment that

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Speaker 2: it all came together because I had, as I said,

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Speaker 2: no idea that I would ever actually run for office.

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Speaker 2: And then you know, having been in the White House

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Speaker 2: and knowing that it was going to end, you know,

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Speaker 2: trying to think about what I was going to do

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Speaker 2: next was pretty much on my mind. And after the

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Speaker 2: nineteen ninety eight midterm elections, when then Senator moynihan said

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Speaker 2: he wasn't going to run again, immediately Democrats in New

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Speaker 2: York started calling me asking me to run. And I'm

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Speaker 2: sure some of them thought I would be an excellent senator,

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Speaker 2: but a lot of them thought that I was the

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Speaker 2: only person that could think of who was available who

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Speaker 2: could beat Rudy Giuliani, who was running. So, you know,

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Speaker 2: he had been mayor, he was obviously controversial, he was

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Speaker 2: obviously tough in all of that.

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Speaker 1: So we hadn't seen anything yet, which no, I'm.

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Speaker 2: Saying, well, he lost his mind. I think I don't

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Speaker 2: know what happened to him. But so people started calling

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Speaker 2: me members of Congress and others, and I kept saying no, no, no,

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Speaker 2: no no. And then in the spring of ninety nine,

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Speaker 2: I was as first Lady in New York City at

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Speaker 2: a high school to promote women's sports. It was like

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Speaker 2: a Title nine event, and there was a new documentary

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Speaker 2: coming out about women in sports, and the name of

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Speaker 2: the documentary was Dare to Compete. And of course, you know,

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Speaker 2: the New York papers are filled with people trying to

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Speaker 2: get me to run, and my saying, you know, no,

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Speaker 2: et cetera. And the young woman who introduced me captain

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Speaker 2: of you know, basketball team, she introduced me, and then

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Speaker 2: she bent over and she whispered in my ear, dare

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Speaker 2: to compete, missus Clinton, dare to compete. I was so

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Speaker 2: astonished by that, because, you know, I had spent many

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Speaker 2: years urging women to compete, you know, in sports and

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Speaker 2: academics and science, in politics, I campaigned for dozens of

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Speaker 2: women running for Congress or governor, whatever election it was.

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Speaker 2: And I suddenly thought to myself, maybe you're afraid to compete.

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Speaker 2: Maybe you are telling people to do something that you

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Speaker 2: wouldn't do yourself. And it was literally at that moment

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Speaker 2: that I took seriously running for the Senate and working

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Speaker 2: through it and trying to be as honest with myself

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Speaker 2: as I could. I thought, Okay, I'm going to try this,

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Speaker 2: And I had no idea whether it would work or not,

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Speaker 2: because when you're supporting somebody else, and I'd support it,

434
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,399
Speaker 2: not just my husband. But you know, hundreds of people,

435
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,159
Speaker 2: you know, it's always about them, and then all of

436
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,959
Speaker 2: a sudden, you know it's about you. And so it was.

437
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,679
Speaker 2: It was a big trans but it was well that

438
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 2: young woman at that moment that really, I think turned

439
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 2: my head around.

440
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:08,639
Speaker 1: What do you think you were scared of?

441
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 2: I think it was just the unknown. I think it

442
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 2: was knowing how hard politics is, because honestly, I'm kind

443
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,400
Speaker 2: of an expert on that. I thought, you know, I'm

444
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,200
Speaker 2: just going to be walking into the meat grinder. It's been,

445
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:27,200
Speaker 2: you know, a very eventful eight years. I could go teach,

446
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 2: or write or do all kinds of interesting things. Why

447
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:32,119
Speaker 2: do I want to do that? You know? Why do

448
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 2: I want to subject myself to that? And and remember

449
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 2: I had been burned in effigy along with other things,

450
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 2: so I knew I was already again because of all

451
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 2: the stuff I represented as a I don't know, baby

452
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 2: boomer woman who you know, didn't know her place. I

453
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 2: guess I had been, you know, subjected to so many attacks,

454
00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 2: Rush Limbaugh and all the people like that. Why did

455
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 2: I want to do that? Why? And then I kind

456
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 2: of thought, Okay, you have been and you also believe

457
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 2: that there's a lot of things we need to do.

458
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 2: You've had a front row seat on history, so get

459
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 2: out there and try. You never know until you try.

460
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 2: So that's what I ended up doing.

461
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's easy for people to think of

462
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 1: you now and say Hillary Clinton came out of the

463
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 1: box this way, right, she was she always had the

464
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 1: courage and bravery to run for these big offices. But

465
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 1: you know, you had to go through your own personal

466
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 1: evolution just like every other person out there. What were

467
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 1: some if you don't mind sharing, like, what were some

468
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 1: insecurities that you had along the way that you had

469
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 1: to work through?

470
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. You know, once you're out there on

471
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 2: your own, you're not there to advocate for a program

472
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 2: or advocate for a candidate. You know, I think we're

473
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 2: you going to be any good at it? You know,

474
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 2: you go from behind the scenes to the front of

475
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 2: the stage, and how are people going to respond to you?

476
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 2: And are they going to believe you, listen to you,

477
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 2: agree with you? Is your personality? Is it going to

478
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 2: be enough? So yeah, I mean there's a lot of criticism,

479
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 2: and then you know, you get all of the gendered criticism,

480
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 2: like don't wear that color? Wear this color, don't wear

481
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:37,239
Speaker 2: flat shoes, wear heels or vice versa. Don't let your

482
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:39,479
Speaker 2: hair grow, don't let your hair be short. I mean,

483
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 2: everybody feels like they can critique a woman in the

484
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 2: public arena. They don't do that to men, you know,

485
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,959
Speaker 2: ninety nine point nine percent of the time. And I

486
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 2: had some of the same experience when I practiced law,

487
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 2: because you know, there were expectations about what a woman

488
00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:00,160
Speaker 2: lawyer should look like. So I wasn't totally surprised, but

489
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:04,959
Speaker 2: the amount of unsolicited advice that you start to receive,

490
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 2: and people say things like, you know, learn to talk

491
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 2: like then they always feel in a man's name, like

492
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 2: learn to talk like Bill Clinton, learn to talk like

493
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 2: Winston Churchill. I remember somebody said, you know, all of

494
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 2: these kind of you know, expectations that are not at

495
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 2: all who you are, and what you have to do

496
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 2: is just learn to be yourself and just be yourself

497
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 2: and do the best you can, and then you know

498
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 2: you'll either be successful or not, but at least you'll

499
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 2: be true to yourself.

500
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 1: Yeah.

501
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 2: I have been pretty much the same person since I

502
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 2: was a little girl, and I think your insights into

503
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 2: how that rattled a lot of people in terms of

504
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 2: what was to be expected. But I also think that

505
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 2: it still is affecting women across the board in every

506
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 2: walk of life, and so you have to first of

507
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 2: all be at peace with who you are, then try

508
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 2: to translate that into the role you're playing in an

509
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 2: effective way, whether it's private or personal or public, and

510
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 2: just get the most out of every day.

511
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 1: Hey, thanks for listening. See you next week when I'm

512
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 1: going to be talking to change expert doctor Katie Milkman

513
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 1: about science based strategies to help you inspire change in

514
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 1: your own life.

515
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 5: And I was in this seminar and a graph went up,

516
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 5: which normally doesn't change your life, but this graph changed

517
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 5: my life. The graph just showed a breakdown of how

518
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 5: many premature deaths are due to different causes, and forty

519
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 5: percent of premature deaths turn out to be the result

520
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 5: of decisions that we can change.

521
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans is created and executive produced

522
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 1: by me Maya Schunker Bigue. Thanks to everyone at Pushkin Industries,

523
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 1: including our producer Mola Board, associate producers David Jaw and

524
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 1: Julia Goodman, Executive producers Meia Lavelle and Justin Lange. Senior

525
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,960
Speaker 1: editor Jen Guera, and sound design and mixed engineers Ben

526
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 1: Holliday and Jason Gambrell. Thanks also to Louis Scara, who

527
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 1: wrote our theme song, and Ginger Smith who helped arrange

528
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 1: the vocals, incidental music from Epidemic Sound, and of course

529
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 1: a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow

530
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: a slight change of plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker.

531
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 2: If we hadn't talked so much about me, I have

532
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 2: a lot of questions for you.

533
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 1: I think you're slightly more interesting than me, so I'm

534
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:18,839
Speaker 1: glad we spent the time this way. It was such

535
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:19,320
Speaker 1: a pleasure.

536
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 2: Good luck to you, and I hope I get to

537
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:23,799
Speaker 2: meet you in person. Take care, Yes, I hope so too.

538
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:31,400
Speaker 2: All Right, take care, okay, bye bye,