1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:04,640 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser from Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:08,200 Speaker 1: Let's get into a conversation on protecting our democracy. Just 3 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: eleven days away from the presidential election, Retired U. S. 4 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 1: Army Lieutenant General HR McMaster is with us. He's got 5 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 1: a book at Battlegrounds, The Fight to Defend the Free World, 6 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:22,799 Speaker 1: He joins us on the phone from Stanford, California. UM, 7 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:24,760 Speaker 1: it is so great to have you here with us. 8 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: We're going to talk about the book, but I do 9 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: want to ask you General McMaster. First of all, how 10 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:32,199 Speaker 1: are you and what's your world been like over the 11 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:37,600 Speaker 1: last six to seven months amid the virus and the shutdown? Well? Well, 12 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 1: he thanks Carol. I I you know, I feel very fortunate. 13 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: I mean, we're in a good place here. We we uh, 14 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: we're able to draw in one of our daughters, my 15 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 1: son in law, and our twin grandsons, uh there with 16 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 1: us and and uh. And I'm one of the fortunate 17 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 1: few that can work remotely and teach remotely. I taught 18 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: a of course at the Graduate School Business here remotely, 19 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: had a had a great time doing it. Not as 20 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: good as in person, but but ortunately we've been able 21 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:02,960 Speaker 1: to continue to interact with people at least on zoom 22 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:08,040 Speaker 1: and so forth, and we feel very fortunate thanks for asking, Carol. General. 23 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 1: You know, when we think about our foreign policy, our 24 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 1: military role in the world post World War Two, it's 25 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: been a pretty consistent theme of internationalism too. For lack 26 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: of a better word, that seems to have taken aree 27 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:25,479 Speaker 1: return and last four years, i e. Put America first again. 28 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: How do you view our kind of foreign policy and 29 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: our military positioning? How do you think it should be 30 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 1: in this world where there's not just where the Cold 31 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 1: War has been one, but now we have lots of 32 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:43,119 Speaker 1: other issues, as you mentioned, including China, right, Paul, Hey, 33 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 1: thank you. In Battlegrounds, I described this as a lack 34 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: of strategic confidence. We lack confidence in our ability to 35 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:55,559 Speaker 1: implement a sustained, reasonable and sustainable foreign policy and approach 36 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: the national security. And I think hopefully what we've learned 37 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 1: from COVID nineteen is that threats that develop overseas are 38 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: belt best dealt with early. You know, once they reached 39 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 1: our shores, we could only cope with them at an 40 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:10,679 Speaker 1: exorbitant price. And of course this was our experience in 41 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: not eleven as well. In connection with the threat from 42 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 1: Jehada terrorism. But what I'm afraid of, Paul, is that 43 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: we saw the ninety nineties as a period of of optimism, 44 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 1: over optimism, maybe even hubrious and complacency about threats that 45 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 1: we faced. And then in the two thousands, you know, 46 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 1: we suffered a serious of strategic shocks, not eleven finanticipated 47 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 1: length and difficulty of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, 48 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 1: the two thousand two nine financial crisis, and our confidence 49 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 1: now is shaken, and I think what we need to 50 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 1: do is restore our strategic competence as the first the 51 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 1: first step in restoring our competence, our confidence and in 52 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 1: our foreign policy and our ability to build a better 53 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 1: future for generations to come. But your book also deals with, 54 00:02:56,040 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 1: you know, us approaches to some of the challenges on 55 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 1: a global level that we have seen, and you say 56 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 1: specifically that resulted in missed opportunities that have left us 57 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 1: at a strategic disadvantage. And you get into it, you know, 58 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:16,800 Speaker 1: what have been our biggest missed opportunities in your view? Well, Carol, 59 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 1: these are these are missed opportunities associated with when are 60 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:22,680 Speaker 1: describing the book of Strategic narcissism, our tendency to define 61 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 1: the world only in relation to us and assume that 62 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: what we decide to do or choose not to do 63 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:30,360 Speaker 1: is decisive the favorable outcomes. And the problem with that 64 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:33,640 Speaker 1: is we don't acknowledge our competition. We don't acknowledge that 65 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: others rivals, adversaries, enemies also have authorship over the future. 66 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: And so we define the world as we like it 67 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: to be. In connection with China, for example, we assume 68 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 1: that China, having been welcomed into the international community, would 69 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 1: play by the rules and as a prosper would liberalize 70 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 1: its economy and then and then ultimately liberalized its form 71 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: of governance. Well, China utter the Chinese Communist Party and 72 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: Fujianping is not doing that's doing quite the opposite. So 73 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 1: we needed to shift our policy can cooperation and engagement 74 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 1: to a more competitive approach. Three administrations in a row 75 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 1: harbored this illusion of a better relationship with Vladimir Putin, 76 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: UH and and the and then just reaching out the 77 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 1: Vladimir Putin would would almost have the effect as if 78 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:19,840 Speaker 1: you were the grinch you all on Christmas Eve? Is 79 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 1: Hartwood growth two size is larger that he would stop 80 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 1: his campaign and sustained political subversion against us, And of 81 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: course that's not the case. And I think the deficiency 82 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 1: that's in common from China to Russia, to Iran to 83 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 1: North Korea to the problem of Johdahs terrorism is that 84 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:40,359 Speaker 1: we don't acknowledge the agency that others have, and we 85 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 1: don't think enough about the ideology, the emotions and aspirations, 86 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 1: the driving constrained the other generally, master we have about 87 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 1: fifty seconds then we're gonna do some news and come back. 88 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 1: But I just want to just quickly ask you, who 89 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 1: do you think is our biggest threat right now? Is 90 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: it Russia? Is it China? Is it the Middle East? 91 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 1: Who is it? It's it's the policy these in actions 92 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 1: of the Chinese Communist Party and a very sophisticated campaign 93 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 1: of what I described in the book is co option, coercion, 94 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: and concealment. And so we have to be much more 95 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:14,840 Speaker 1: effective and much more effective at defending against this campaign, 96 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 1: but also strengthening our competitive advantages so we and the 97 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 1: rest of the free world can compete more effectively. General one, 98 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: I I could just take a quick look at Russia. 99 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: It's it's been an you know, how do you view 100 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:32,600 Speaker 1: their view of the world, and how we should counteract 101 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: that to the extent we need to. Is it better 102 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 1: to go against Russia with allies or go one on 103 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 1: one or two as this administration is trying to do 104 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: to kind of I guess curry some favor with this 105 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:50,600 Speaker 1: Russian leadership. Well, hey, thanks, Paul. What I think it's 106 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 1: important to understand what's driving Vladimir Prutinent, because Vladimir Putin 107 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 1: is Russia's policy right now, and and what Prutent is 108 00:05:56,960 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 1: driven by is this sense of honor lost at with 109 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 1: the breakup of the Soviet Union and our victory, the 110 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:07,840 Speaker 1: free world's victory in the Cold War. And what Putin 111 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 1: is determined to do is to restore Russia to national greatness. Well, 112 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 1: you know, he doesn't have a lot of material to 113 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:16,159 Speaker 1: work with. Of course, he has a huge, dangerous nuclear arsenal, 114 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 1: but his economy is about the size of Texas economy 115 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:21,919 Speaker 1: or Italy's economy. So his theory of victory is to 116 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 1: drag everybody else down under the theory that he can 117 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 1: be the last man standing. And the way that he's 118 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:31,239 Speaker 1: doing that is to polarize our societies with cyber enabled 119 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 1: information warfare directed against us. This is a this campaign 120 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:40,279 Speaker 1: of of of disruption, disinformation, and denial. He wants to 121 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 1: he wants to against each other in a way that 122 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 1: reduces our confidence in our common identity within America, within 123 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 1: countries in Europe, across the EU UM and then and 124 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 1: then reduce our confidence in our democratic principles and institutions 125 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 1: and processes. And I think what is needed is is 126 00:06:56,200 --> 00:07:00,360 Speaker 1: a concerted effort to expose this behavior to i'll turn 127 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:03,839 Speaker 1: this behavior, but then also to restore our confidence in 128 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 1: ourselves so that so that this this campaign doesn't have 129 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 1: the effect that it has been having on us. And 130 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: and to answer your question, it's best done obviously with 131 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 1: partners and with allies and and really fellow victims of 132 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 1: this aggressive campaign. When I described in Battle Rouns as 133 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 1: your Russian new generation warfare, and of course I don't believe, 134 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 1: I don't believe that that any kind of an accommodation 135 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 1: with with with Putin is going to happen. I think 136 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 1: taking a conciliatory approach is going to be futile. And 137 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 1: and the story that I tell in the book is 138 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 1: how three different administrations have got approached. You remember when 139 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 1: George W. Bush said he looked into prudent soul. Remember 140 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 1: when Secretary Clinton, you brought the reset button to Geneva 141 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 1: with lab Roth and prison. Obama leaned over and said 142 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 1: Tom ad bet If, who was keeping the seat warm 143 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: for prutent? Hey, you offer some more flexibility after the election. 144 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: And and we were threw missile defenses for example from Poland. 145 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:00,040 Speaker 1: None of that worked. And and and uh and this 146 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 1: is why I think, you know, President Trump should should 147 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 1: come to this conclusion. You know, he's already laid to 148 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 1: the game on this that he's not going to be 149 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 1: a friend. You know, he's just not going to be 150 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 1: a friend. Well, and I do. I don't want to 151 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 1: get political. I don't want to point figures, you know, 152 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 1: fingers and you were, you know, national Security advisor from 153 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 1: eighteen so, you know, during the Trump administration. But I 154 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: do wonder you know what kind of signal it kind 155 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: of sent said sent to the world, um General McMaster 156 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:32,200 Speaker 1: to see what seemed to be an alliance between the 157 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: commander in chief here in the United States and putin Well, 158 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 1: it wasn't in the line. So here's here's what I 159 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 1: think we have to do. First of all, the President 160 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 1: Stevens don't help, especially when he draws into into question 161 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: the fact that Russia has engaged in this sustained campaign 162 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 1: of subversion against us, did in fact attack the election. 163 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: And I think that what we have to be, first 164 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:56,960 Speaker 1: of all to to counter it. He just don't be 165 00:08:57,000 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 1: our own worst enemies. I mean, I tell the story 166 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 1: of Bottle Grounds about how both political parties in compromised 167 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 1: our principles so they could gain partisan advantage over the other. 168 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 1: That's a big mistake. I think the other important aspect 169 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: of this is to is to at least as we 170 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 1: look back at this that period of time and we 171 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: defend ourselves today that we don't either deny Russia's Russ's 172 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 1: attacks on us, for the President does some times to 173 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 1: time or say they determine the outcome of the election, 174 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:28,200 Speaker 1: which we can't say either, right, and and so again, 175 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 1: I wish we would just work on this together and 176 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 1: recognize that what she really wants to do is reduced 177 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 1: our confidence. I don't I don't think you know. I don't. 178 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 1: I don't think they care you know, who wins our elections. 179 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:40,559 Speaker 1: I think what they care is that the significant portion 180 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 1: of Americans doubt the legitimacy of the result. What's the 181 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:47,839 Speaker 1: state of our cybersecurity in this country here, it's become 182 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: such a huge issue, particularly from the election onward. Right. Well, well, 183 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 1: I'll tell you, Paul, it's much better. It's much better. 184 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 1: And and you know, I was I was happy to 185 00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 1: have a hand in this, a small role in this, 186 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 1: and work in the together with the departments and agencies 187 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 1: to ensure that we're more effective in cyberspace. We can 188 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:08,199 Speaker 1: compete more effectively in the recognition that a good defense 189 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:11,080 Speaker 1: requires a good offense too, so so the authorities that 190 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 1: are cyber warriors have are much more significant. There's also 191 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 1: been very significant developments in terms of securing cyber infrastructure. 192 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 1: There's no organization with very capable people who have worked 193 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 1: on that. They've worked on that in connection with the 194 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:26,719 Speaker 1: election in particular, and as you know, we have a 195 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 1: very decentralized system. But but there are federal standards and 196 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 1: there's a lot of good collaborative work going on between 197 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:37,320 Speaker 1: the states and between the federal government. So I think 198 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:41,560 Speaker 1: we should have confidence in our election. Now. Offensive cyber 199 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 1: against infrastructure, that's still a very significant threat. Cyber enabled 200 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:49,320 Speaker 1: information warfare, significant threats cyber enabled crime such as the 201 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 1: as AS ransomware that North Korea has become uh particularly 202 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 1: adept at. It is still a huge threat. So what 203 00:10:56,760 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 1: we need is a continuous effort because this is a battle. 204 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:02,480 Speaker 1: The battle is not going to go away, right as 205 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 1: soon as we get better in one area, our adversaries 206 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 1: adapt and and and take on new techniques and develop 207 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 1: the capabilities. Well, we are definitely living in interesting times 208 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:14,559 Speaker 1: and your book really takes us through um the regions 209 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 1: of the world that we really need to be sitting 210 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 1: up and paying attention to. Lieutenant General H. R. McMaster, 211 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. US Army retired general, former National 212 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:26,680 Speaker 1: security advisor on the phone from Stanford. Check out his book. 213 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: It is called Battlegrounds, The Fight to Defend the Free World. 214 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 1: And a really timely conversation