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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds, and Lisa Murkowski says it's dangerous for

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Speaker 1: us in the legislative branch. We have such a great

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Speaker 1: show for you today, the Lincoln Projects owen Rick Wilson

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Speaker 1: joins us to discuss the No Kings protest, Trump's sad

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Speaker 1: Birthday parade, and political violence. Then we'll talk to James

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Speaker 1: Kimmel about his new book, The Science of Revenge, Understanding

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Speaker 1: the world's deadliest addiction and how to overcome it. But

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Speaker 1: first the news.

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Speaker 2: So, Molly, one of the things I feared the most

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Speaker 2: as being a pro union person is how much progress

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Speaker 2: we were making underbided and that the second Trump got

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Speaker 2: in that they would be doing everything they can to

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Speaker 2: call it back.

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Speaker 3: Well, we're starting to see that.

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Speaker 2: I didn't think it would be very high on their priorities,

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Speaker 2: And yeah, it seems like they're getting down to it fively.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, can I just add the big

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Speaker 1: union right, the auto Workers did not endorse Harris. They

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Speaker 1: refused to endorse right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: One of the things that I think is very interesting

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Speaker 2: about union culture, right, now is that we are seeing

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Speaker 2: such partisanship of their ranks that the leadership is actually

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Speaker 2: fearful of what happens. We're even seeing that at our

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Speaker 2: mayoral election right now with a lot of the unions.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so here are unions, a lot of their members

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Speaker 1: are voting for Trump, and there people are getting punished

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Speaker 1: by trump Ism. The arrest and violent man handling of

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Speaker 1: the president of the Service Employees International Union of California

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Speaker 1: suggests that Trump is targeting union leaders for arrest. So

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Speaker 1: this is like right out of the authoritarian playbook, right.

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Speaker 1: You don't want collective fargeting because it makes workers more powerful.

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Speaker 1: You don't want powerful workers because it makes the president

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Speaker 1: less powerful. Remember when whenever you see stuff like this happening,

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Speaker 1: ask yoursel who does it hurt? Who does it help?

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Speaker 1: And with so much of this, Trump's whole goal is

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Speaker 1: to expand presidential power, right as we saw in Project

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty five. He wants to grow the executive branch

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Speaker 1: and shrink the other branches. Now, Republicans in Congress are

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Speaker 1: happy to do this, They're happy to give him the power.

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Speaker 1: But this is a really good example of ways in

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Speaker 1: which the Trump administration is trying to grow its power. Look,

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Speaker 1: they want to silence dissent, right Their labor unions are

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Speaker 1: trying to push back. But you know, they they have

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Speaker 1: really kneecapped themselves by electing Donald Trump. It's one of

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Speaker 1: these things where I don't know how you know, a

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Speaker 1: lot of this late the labor protection, the negotiating protection

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Speaker 1: is being rolled back right now at the state level

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Speaker 1: and a lot of red states, and at the federal

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Speaker 1: level too. And you know, these people, a lot of

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Speaker 1: these people voted for Trump. They voted for Republicans. You know,

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Speaker 1: they didn't make the connection between being in a union

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Speaker 1: and the Republicans war with unions.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So, speaking of unforeseen consequences, the washingt Post has some

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Speaker 2: great journalism about how vaccine critics appointed by RFK Junior

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Speaker 2: are going to limit access to shots.

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Speaker 1: This is not even unforeseen, this is foreseen. Well, this

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Speaker 1: fucking guy was going to make it hard to get vaccines.

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Speaker 3: We saw it.

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Speaker 2: But I would argue that a lot of people were like, no, no,

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Speaker 2: it's fine.

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Speaker 1: Well we've had people on this podcast who said you're

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Speaker 1: not going to be able to get somebody. Yes, that's

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Speaker 1: where we are right now. So Robert F. Kennedy Junior's

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Speaker 1: overhaul of the Federal Immunization Panel will create uncertainty about

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Speaker 1: how widely vaccines will be available. So these recommendations will

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Speaker 1: mean that the vaccines that are covered by insurance or

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Speaker 1: medicaid may not be covered anymore, because my man RFK

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Speaker 1: Junior will say he doesn't think that people need measles

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Speaker 1: or mumps, or rubella or chicken pox or all the

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Speaker 1: vaccines that keep us safe. Look, this is because of COVID. Right.

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Speaker 1: COVID made everyone lose their brains. A significant, small, but

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Speaker 1: significant part of the American population decided that they were

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Speaker 1: going to get tripped by grifters and snake oil salesmen

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Speaker 1: like RFK Junior. And this is how we got here.

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Speaker 1: So our FK Junior now running our country's house, we're

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Speaker 1: all completely fucked. Did I mention that we have children

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Speaker 1: dying of measles that was never needed? So many things

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Speaker 1: could have been prevented. We're seeing the Trump administration just

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Speaker 1: once again falling apart, elevating people who are incompetent. Now

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Speaker 1: we have RFK Junior, a complete grifter. Every day, we

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Speaker 1: don't have a pandemic as a miracle.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know a funny thing would I went

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Speaker 2: to Canada last week. I was very funny the subtle

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Speaker 2: shade that the border crossing through at Americans of like

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Speaker 2: measles is.

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Speaker 3: Now on the rise in Canada.

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Speaker 2: I wonder why, please please be sure to not bring

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Speaker 2: it here, Thank you very much.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the worst so by.

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Speaker 2: One of the things we discussed last week is Trump

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Speaker 2: had all these tweets where it's started to seem like

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Speaker 2: he's going a little soft on Steven Miller's vision of

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Speaker 2: a white no state.

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Speaker 3: And Axios has some interesting reporting here. What do you see?

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Speaker 1: You'll be shocked to know that rich guy talks to

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Speaker 1: other rich people. Other rich people say, you know, as

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Speaker 1: much as we love the visual of your guys hunting

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Speaker 1: farmers in the field, hunting agriculture workers, as much as

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Speaker 1: that's fun for us, it's hurting our business. These are jobs,

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Speaker 1: and Americans do not want agricultural workers. They're tough jobs,

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Speaker 1: they're hard work, they're in the field. We can get

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Speaker 1: Americans to take like manufacturing jobs, let alone jobs working

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Speaker 1: in the field. The people who do these jobs keep

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Speaker 1: us from starving, and we're so lucky to have them.

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Speaker 1: So we have Hatum King a senior ice official. I'm

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Speaker 1: sure this person is a great person, sending an email

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Speaker 1: to agency officials nationwide telling them to please hold on

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Speaker 1: all work site enforcement investigations, operations on agriculture including aquaculture

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Speaker 1: and meatpacking plants, restaurants, and operating hotels, especially Trump hotels. Look,

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Speaker 1: this was always bullshit. This whole administration is built on

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Speaker 1: a lie. Donald Trump always employed workers that had, you know,

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Speaker 1: sketchy immigration statuses, always always, So of course they're going

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Speaker 1: to make sure that those people don't get to ported

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Speaker 1: they need them for these jobs. So here we are.

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Speaker 1: Yet again, we could have seen all of this coming

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Speaker 1: a million miles away, But here we are. Rick Wilson

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Speaker 1: is the founder of the Lincoln Project and the host

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Speaker 1: of the Enemy's List Welcome Back, Too Fast Politics fan

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Speaker 1: favorite bestie, Rick Wills.

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Speaker 3: Man about town, the whole thing? Thank you? How are

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Speaker 3: you today?

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Speaker 1: Right? Man? About town? If that town is in Florida, Yes,

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Speaker 1: under kind of kind of undermines the whole thing, kind

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Speaker 1: of Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Speaking of Florida, I live, as you know, in the

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Speaker 3: middle of a giant ocean of red. Yes, and yet

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Speaker 3: somehow in the capital of Florida yesterday five thousand people

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Speaker 3: turned up at a protest for No Kings like I

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Speaker 3: had never I mean, I've lived here a long time

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Speaker 3: and it ordinarily the progressive world manages to get a

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Speaker 3: protest with about a half a dozen people on the

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Speaker 3: steps of the capitol and one weird sign. This thing

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Speaker 3: was wall to wall blocks around the capitol, which.

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Speaker 1: Was nuts in Tallahassee.

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Speaker 3: Tallahassee, a state that has been dominated by the Republican

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Speaker 3: Party for the last twenty five years, managed they managed

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Speaker 3: to have two sort of sort of scrubby looking maga

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Speaker 3: kids three blocks away hold one sign as a counter protest.

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Speaker 3: So I don't know what's going on, but that seemed

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Speaker 3: to be iterating across the whole country. Had a buddy

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Speaker 3: of mine in Billings, Montana, crowds in the street like

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Speaker 3: you couldn't believe he's like he's he goes when I

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Speaker 3: tell you, this is half the city, I mean it,

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Speaker 3: it's crazy.

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Speaker 1: What do you think that means? The numbers I saw

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Speaker 1: Elliott Morris, h smart guy, used to run five thirty eight,

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Speaker 1: and he had he had sort of calculated the numbers

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Speaker 1: as higher than five million. I saw five million in

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Speaker 1: the New York Times, but Ellie Morris thinks it's closer

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Speaker 1: to more than that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah he said. I think he said something like it

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Speaker 3: could be up to thirteen million people, yes, which is nuts.

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Speaker 1: So up to thirteen million people gets us to a

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Speaker 1: level where about we're almost too I think a little

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Speaker 1: bit less than one percent of the of America protesting.

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Speaker 3: That's what they call the Color Revolution line. When you

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Speaker 3: have one or two percent of the population out protesting,

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Speaker 3: the deer leaders have lost a lot of power.

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Speaker 1: And some are saying, I'm going to use a jesse

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Speaker 1: Can in fact check here. Uh. Some are saying that

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Speaker 1: this was the biggest protest in American history.

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Speaker 3: Listen, I could I could make that argument. I think there.

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Speaker 3: I think there was something yesterday in the air across

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Speaker 3: the country. I think there was a little bit of

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Speaker 3: whistling past the graveyard at first, like people are like,

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Speaker 3: oh god, what if it doesn't turn out? What if

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Speaker 3: this doesn't work? And and it was. It was bonkers everywhere.

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Speaker 1: And I was nuts. So I was in Nantucket because

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Speaker 1: I have a book that just came out, which I

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Speaker 1: don't know if.

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Speaker 3: Do you do people know about it? Is it a

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Speaker 3: New York Times bestseller? Yes?

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Speaker 1: It is number six on the combined list. I have

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Speaker 1: to tell you there are no words for the level

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Speaker 1: of thrill. But anyway, I was in it. But you know,

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Speaker 1: it's I'm the meme where it's like the world is

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Speaker 1: burning down and I'm like, so I have a book,

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Speaker 1: but but but I was in Nantucket for this book.

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Speaker 1: For Nantucket is known to be well in the Northeast,

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Speaker 1: a very Republican island, so much so that the guy

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Speaker 1: sitting in front of me was wearing a Trump a

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Speaker 1: Trump golf club a shirt that had a sort of

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Speaker 1: small insignia that said Trump Jupiter or whatever. But I

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Speaker 1: want to talk about this. It was a huge protest

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Speaker 1: in Nantucket, which is a Republican island. So it is

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Speaker 1: really does feel like these places where you don't expect

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Speaker 1: to see protests, we're seeing big right test.

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Speaker 3: Right. I think this happened to the surprise of a

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Speaker 3: lot of the Maga folks yesterday because the gigantic Maga

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Speaker 3: media machine was in full throttle, like there's no there

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Speaker 3: are no there, nobody's at the no Kings rallies, there

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Speaker 3: are no no Kings rallies whatsoever. No one's out at all,

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Speaker 3: but five million people are in Washington for President's Military

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Speaker 3: dictatorship Parade.

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Speaker 1: Right, so let's talk about the military dictatorship parade, because

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Speaker 1: there's a really smart thing. I saw that the individual

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Speaker 1: No Kings Rally organizers wrote on their website which said,

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Speaker 1: and even Axios, which is known to.

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Speaker 3: Not be not exactly like friend of progressive politics, Axios.

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Speaker 1: Yes exactly, said that the people they wanted to provide

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Speaker 1: a kind of counter programming and not a competition, and

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Speaker 1: that's why they didn't go to Washington, DC. Right. They

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Speaker 1: stayed away because they didn't because they wanted to sort

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Speaker 1: of dominate the news cycle and provide an alternative narrative

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Speaker 1: versus a sort of combative program, right, program around trump Ism,

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Speaker 1: which I think is really an important thought when you're

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Speaker 1: talking about sort of permeating the discourse.

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Speaker 3: Look, I think I think that that the grassroots energy

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Speaker 3: in this thing was so unique and it's and I will,

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Speaker 3: I will, you know, went back to my my experience

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Speaker 3: at at one of these yesterday, I actually saw three

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Speaker 3: or four of my Republican friends who aren't even like

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Speaker 3: people I would have thought like, oh, he's a never trumper.

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Speaker 3: I was surprised. I talked to one guy I was like,

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Speaker 3: I'm shocked to see you here, he goes, I'm just done.

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Speaker 3: And I think that they that they correctly calibrated. That

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Speaker 3: did we get a broader uplift from this if it

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Speaker 3: didn't feel like it was just like one more sort

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Speaker 3: of generic fuck Trump thing, and you opened it up

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Speaker 3: and people felt a lot more sans of community about it.

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Speaker 3: I just I don't go to a lot of marches

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Speaker 3: and shit, but yeah, this was impressive and it was optimistic,

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Speaker 3: and there were a lot of American flags flying and

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Speaker 3: a lot of people who who who got the memo,

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Speaker 3: who stood the assignment as they say.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about UH disinformation because it is

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Speaker 1: really important when we talk about these protests to talk

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Speaker 1: about Twitter and what happened on Twitter and the political violence.

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Speaker 1: The woman and her husband.

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Speaker 3: Minnesota former former House majority leader in the.

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Speaker 1: Former House majority leader Melissa Horman and her husband murdered

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Speaker 1: in their bads. Two other members of the Minnesota State House,

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Speaker 1: both Melissa Horman and her husband and John Hoffman and

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Speaker 1: his wife Okay murdered in their bads by a conservative Christian,

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Speaker 1: anti choice, anti right UH worked in private security, carried weapons,

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Speaker 1: et cetera.

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Speaker 3: Right the all the all the unsurprised, using descriptors of

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Speaker 3: this guy that once you knew them, you were like,

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Speaker 3: of course.

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Speaker 1: So this happens, he is now on the run. A

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Speaker 1: few thoughts here. One, these were the people who were

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Speaker 1: being watched by the FBI before cash Betel got in charge.

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Speaker 1: Right now, they are no longer You're no longer allowed

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Speaker 1: to watch these people because those people, right, because.

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Speaker 3: The deep state was watching them in the We can't

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Speaker 3: have anybody monitored by the deep state anymore because obviously

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Speaker 3: they're just they were the same sort of innocent tourists

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Speaker 3: that were just visiting with love on January Seanuary sixth.

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Speaker 1: So the day this happened, Twitter became a sea of

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Speaker 1: disinformation and the magas works trying to sell a story

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Speaker 1: that these people had voted against healthcare for non citizens

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Speaker 1: and that was why they got murdered by a Marxist.

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Speaker 3: Right, and so you get guys like Mike Cernovic and

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Speaker 3: Mike Lee and the rest of the sort of Trump

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Speaker 3: is set.

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Speaker 1: One is an online influencer who started Pizzagate.

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Speaker 3: Right right, Well, they're basically, look, these these are not

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Speaker 3: they're not sending their best moly, right, but but what

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Speaker 3: we're talking about here, when you get down to it,

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Speaker 3: is this alternate ecosystem that cannot confront reality. They cannot

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Speaker 3: confront what is actually happening here, which is that the

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Speaker 3: right wing maga media ecosystem feeds these people a constant

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Speaker 3: diet of lies and bullshit that that that every Democrat

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Speaker 3: is a is a cannibal, pedophile, child trafficker, blah blah blah.

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Speaker 3: And when they when one of their own commits a

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Speaker 3: crime like this, a horrifying crime, they believe they control

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Speaker 3: their way out of the problem, right, and and so

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Speaker 3: we end up with a situation like yesterday, which a

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Speaker 3: US Senator, Mike Lee, who absofrikingly know better.

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Speaker 1: Okay, yes, is a United States senator.

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Speaker 3: Yes, let's let's emphasize that point again, a United States

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Speaker 3: senator is out talking the worst weird ass smack about,

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Speaker 3: you know, pretending that this was a political assassination because

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Speaker 3: of wokeness. And it's so disgusting at every level. It's

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Speaker 3: so weak at every level, because they are they recognize

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Speaker 3: that that what they've created as a monster, and that

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Speaker 3: monster is now out roaming the world. And it's frankly,

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Speaker 3: yesterday murdered two people. The guy in his car had

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Speaker 3: a hit list of seventy other elected Democratic.

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Speaker 1: Officials, but my friend Tim Walls.

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Speaker 3: Yes, and and folks you know, like Ilhan Omar and

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Speaker 3: a whole variety of other people that does not exactly

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Speaker 3: fit the profile of left wing on a murder spree.

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Speaker 3: This was a right wing assassin. He's been motivated by

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Speaker 3: people like well, by by institutions like Breitbart and Fox News,

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Speaker 3: because they're told over and over again, you're you're being

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Speaker 3: pursued by the evil left wingers. They're trying to destroy you.

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Speaker 3: They're not human. They deserve everything we can give them

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Speaker 3: in terms of political and personal violence. And the whole

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Speaker 3: thing is a utterly predictable and repulsive set of behaviors

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Speaker 3: that I don't I don't think. I don't think. I

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Speaker 3: sometimes think I've lost the capacity to be shocked, but

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Speaker 3: I clearly haven't because I'm and this one is shocking

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Speaker 3: even to me.

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Speaker 1: First of all, Mark Cuban, if you listen to this podcast,

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Speaker 1: you should buy Twitter, Okay, because somebody rich should buy

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Speaker 1: Twitter and make it normal again, because Elon has made

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Speaker 1: it completely unusable and it has a really good purpose

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Speaker 1: and it's really a public util and you know, Elon

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Speaker 1: is down the rabbit hole now of whatever. It's time

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Speaker 1: to buy Twitter.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean look and frankly, you could probably get

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Speaker 3: Twitter at a pretty reasonable price at this point.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so that is number one, because the site has degraded,

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Speaker 1: But it also is what you see, it's it's completely

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Speaker 1: without use at this point.

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Speaker 3: But it's also But here's the thing, the degree to

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Speaker 3: which the right values Twitter because it is this normative

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Speaker 3: force for them. It is this powerful thing that keeps

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Speaker 3: them in line, that keeps them on message and over

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Speaker 3: and over again. I don't I've said this to a

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Speaker 3: lot a lot of wealthy people recently. Like the power

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Speaker 3: of Fox, Facebook and Twitter to control what the maga

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Speaker 3: world thinks and does is beyond comprehension. It is. It

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Speaker 3: is super powerful as as a way of shaping what

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Speaker 3: they believe, what they see, what they read. And it

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Speaker 3: also empowers people who again think they control their way

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Speaker 3: out of a mass murder or an attempted mass murder

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Speaker 3: by one of Donald Trump's fervent supporters. Yeah, and it,

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Speaker 3: you know, it did blow up in their faces a

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Speaker 3: bit like oh yes, obviously, he's just like every other

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Speaker 3: liberal who's been a registered Republican for twenty two years

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Speaker 3: has a private security company and so on and so on. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's the silliness of this shit is beyond Yeah.

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Speaker 1: No, of course, and it's totally ridiculous. But there was

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Speaker 1: also I want to talk about. There was a little

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Speaker 1: bit of violence that happened yesterday that I want to

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Speaker 1: talk about because I think it's really important and it

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Speaker 1: didn't get reported because there's no local news, so you

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Speaker 1: may be listening to this podcast and you may not

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Speaker 1: know about it. So most of the rallies were peaceful,

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Speaker 1: but okay, there were in Salt Lake City somebody got

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Speaker 1: critically injured into the crowd and in Culpeper, Virginia, somebody

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Speaker 1: throw their suv into the crowd. So those are two

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Speaker 1: real things that happened.

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Speaker 3: Oh you mean political violence.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, oh, I mean political.

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Speaker 3: I was told that only happens on the left.

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Speaker 1: Weird political violence. You know, I don't think it should

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Speaker 1: be brushed over, right.

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Speaker 3: We should address it more honestly than than the right

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Speaker 3: would like. And they really don't want to talk about this.

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Speaker 3: They want to pretend that they are the set upon victims,

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Speaker 3: they're the they're the the David to the Goliath of

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Speaker 3: some sort of violent progressive action, which is has been

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Speaker 3: and has always been garbage. And look, I believe me

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Speaker 3: if I would if I saw it on the left,

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Speaker 3: I'd call it out because it benefits no one.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's certainly true. I wonder if we could talk

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Speaker 1: for a minute about how Trump actually had to watch

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Speaker 1: the parade. Oh, it was so beautiful, Like, I wonder

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Speaker 1: if he didn't think.

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Speaker 3: This through No, he never thinks anything through Molly. He

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Speaker 3: has no ability to think outside of his of his

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Speaker 3: like tiny animal brain, and he thought this will be

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Speaker 3: a great triumph. I will look strong, I will I

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Speaker 3: will buy association, absorb the strength of these warriors. And

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Speaker 3: he looked like a dip shit half asleep behind the

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Speaker 3: glass at a poorly attended and by poorly attended folks,

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Speaker 3: I mean poorly attended. Yeah, they were expecting a million

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Speaker 3: people and they maybe got a maybe got fifty thousand.

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Speaker 3: The mall was empty. Trump's reviewing stand had empty seats

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Speaker 3: directly across from it, which, if you're a political advance guy,

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Speaker 3: get another job tomorrow because you fucked up.

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Speaker 1: But also, can we just talk about, like why did

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Speaker 1: this need to be sponsored by Coinbase and Boeing or

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Speaker 1: I think coin Base. It was coin Base and Lockheed Martin.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, look, it was a bunch of there were a

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Speaker 3: bunch of bunch of corporate sponsors in bold.

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Speaker 1: But weren't the taxpayers really the sponsors of this?

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Speaker 3: That was exactly what I was about to say, Mali.

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Speaker 3: But the real the real sponsor was the US taxpayer.

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Speaker 3: The real sponsor was was every American who had to

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Speaker 3: fork over their tax dollars for this eighty five million dollar,

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Speaker 3: eighty nine million dollar horseshit. And and the reality is

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Speaker 3: Trump begged for a missile parade in the first administration.

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Speaker 1: He was ab he saw one in France, that's right,

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Speaker 1: Steel day.

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Speaker 3: That he was obsessed with it. And now he finally

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Speaker 3: got one. He didn't have an esper or a Millie

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Speaker 3: who said, no, sir, you can't do this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Millie was like, no dice.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Millie was like a no loss, no chief, the

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Speaker 3: same how this works. Yeah, but you know, he he

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Speaker 3: desperately wanted this again. Donald Trump, the draft dodging, chicken

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Speaker 3: shit coward who demeaned diminished John McCain, who called our

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Speaker 3: troop suckers, and losers, who has over and over again

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Speaker 3: essentially except pressed his contempt for the service of others,

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Speaker 3: wanted to absorb the heroism of American military men and women.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I found the whole thing so crass and

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Speaker 3: stupid and badly run because you know, you have these

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Speaker 3: guys marching by it. It's like brought to you by Coinbase,

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Speaker 3: sponsored by UFC, and it's just like, oh, come on, dude.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was incredible stuff. Incredible stuff. Rick Wilson, John joining.

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Speaker 3: Me a pleasure as always.

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Speaker 1: Will you be back?

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Speaker 3: I will always be back for you. You know that.

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Speaker 1: James Kimmel is the author of the Science of Revenge,

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Speaker 1: Standing the world's deadliest addiction, and How to overcome it.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Fast Politics, James.

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Speaker 4: Thank you, mollly happy to be here and really appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: So talk to me about this book.

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Speaker 4: So recent neuroscience revelations have given us some exciting new discoveries,

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Speaker 4: most importantly that your brain on revenge looks like your

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Speaker 4: brain on drugs, which is a big discovery in the

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Speaker 4: sense it is it is it is your brain on revenge.

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Speaker 4: It looks like your brain on drugs. And that's a

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Speaker 4: big discovery because it gives us the first notion of

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Speaker 4: a biological cause of violence and how to prevent and

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Speaker 4: treat it.

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Speaker 1: So, you know, I'm sober twenty seven years, but who's counting.

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Speaker 1: Will this show us how to treat alcoholism, drug addiction,

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Speaker 1: or revenge?

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Speaker 4: No, it'll show us that by using alcohol and other

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Speaker 4: substance use, addiction, prevention and treatment strategies, we can prevent

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Speaker 4: and treat violence, which is a big revelation. It's kind

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Speaker 4: of the reverse order where we're bringing those techniques into

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Speaker 4: something that has eluded human prevention and treatment for thousands

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Speaker 4: of years.

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Speaker 1: I need you to explain this more to me. Neuroscience

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Speaker 1: finds that revenge and addiction look the same. So what

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Speaker 1: you mean by revenge more is the sort of anger impulse, right, So,

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Speaker 1: revenge is.

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Speaker 4: The desire to punish people who either violate social norms

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Speaker 4: or wrong you in some way, whether it's real or imagined.

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Speaker 4: So you know, it starts with the grievance, and a

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Speaker 4: grievance is a real or imagined perception of having been mistreated,

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Speaker 4: treated unjustly, humiliated, shame betrayed, victimized in any way. That's

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Speaker 4: the beginning point of this process.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So if revenge is like addiction and it is

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Speaker 1: a similar kind of situation that can prevent violence, but

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Speaker 1: it also perhaps might give us a little insight into

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00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 1: what's happening in Trump's second administration.

438
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:18,359
Speaker 4: It does, and what's happening across the country in response.

439
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,640
Speaker 4: Because this is a it's a human problem, so it transcends,

440
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 4: you know, political boundaries. Let's just go into this for

441
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,679
Speaker 4: a second. So a grievance, we've all experienced those. That

442
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:29,960
Speaker 4: can be somebody you know who cuts you off while

443
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 4: you're driving, or an unkind word from you know, your

444
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:37,520
Speaker 4: partner or spouse or a parent, or something you know

445
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 4: from some exchange with a coworker or your boss, or

446
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 4: something even more broadly like a mean tweet or something

447
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 4: that comes out of the Trump administration or a democratic administration.

448
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:54,040
Speaker 4: It wouldn't matter. But those grievances are registered in your brain.

449
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,679
Speaker 4: And we can see this now in brain scans. That

450
00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 4: activates your brain's pay network area, which is known as

451
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:04,479
Speaker 4: the anterior insulo. And your brain hates pain, so it

452
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,160
Speaker 4: wants to do something to stop that pain or cover

453
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 4: it up. And the strategy that we've evolved to do

454
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 4: is we get pleasure from trying to hurt the person

455
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 4: who rolled us or their proxy, and that is very pleasurable,

456
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 4: and it activates the pleasure and reward circuitry of the brain,

457
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 4: which is the nucleus occumbents, and the dorsal strata. All

458
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 4: of this is also happening for every other form of addiction,

459
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 4: and we want to gratify that craving, the craving for

460
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 4: revenge which is stimulated by a dopamine rush to motivate

461
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 4: us toward harming the person who rolled us, because we

462
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:44,880
Speaker 4: get a little high from it. I mean, revenge acts

463
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 4: inside your brain like a drug, doest.

464
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 1: One of the things that I've been interested in as

465
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 1: a sober person who comes from a family is they

466
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,479
Speaker 1: tell my children all the time riddled with alcoholism. As

467
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 1: I tell my three teenage children, I got sobern as nineteen.

468
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 1: So whenever I see that, I say, you know, you

469
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 1: come from a family. I swear to that I am

470
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 1: become my grandfather. You come from a family riddled with alcoholism.

471
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:10,160
Speaker 1: My grandfather wouldn't say things like that, but he would

472
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 1: say other things about you know whatever. So I wonder

473
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 1: if one of the really interesting things about Trump's motivations

474
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,680
Speaker 1: which I think are worth looking at because he's now

475
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:26,679
Speaker 1: running the entire federal government, is that he had this

476
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 1: brother who died of alcoholism, Mary's father, and he has

477
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 1: committed to never drink or take drugs, right like I

478
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:36,919
Speaker 1: don't know about drugs, but has committed has made a

479
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 1: you know, very clear about the fact that he never

480
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 1: drinks and will never drink. Joe Biden children who struggled

481
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 1: with alcoholism also never drinks ever take drucks, similar like

482
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 1: non drinkers, both of them from families filled with alcoholism.

483
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 1: So talk to me about kind of if there's a

484
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 1: connection here between being sober or being alcoholic and having

485
00:28:58,560 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 1: trouble managing your emotion.

486
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 4: It's possible, And I don't want it to be focused

487
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:07,959
Speaker 4: on emotions, because this is much more than just what

488
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 4: we think of as emotions like I feel happy or sad.

489
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 4: This is a brain biological process that drives us toward

490
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,959
Speaker 4: revenge seeking for pleasure. We seek revenge to make ourselves

491
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 4: feel better after we've been hurt. There is a theory

492
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 4: that the vulnerable brain that suggests that people who are

493
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 4: vulnerable to other forms of addiction are more vulnerable to

494
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 4: addictions in general. So if you're vulnerable to a substance

495
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 4: use disorder, you may we don't have evidence for this yet,

496
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 4: but you may also be more vulnerable to a gambling addiction.

497
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 4: You may also be more vulnerable to a revenge addiction,

498
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 4: which is what we're talking about. So it's possible, but

499
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 4: it's important to know that all humans, we all feel

500
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 4: good when we take an opioid, but we also all

501
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 4: feel good by fantasizing about or enacting our fantasies about

502
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 4: revenge seeking, in other words, hurting the people who wrong

503
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 4: us or their proxy, so that we don't even have

504
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 4: to hurt the direct person who's wronged to us to

505
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 4: get this gratification. And the good example of that is,

506
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 4: like you know, you're at work, your boss says something

507
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 4: that you don't like and hurts your feelings or worse,

508
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 4: and you can't retaliate against your boss because you might

509
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 4: lose your job, so you go home and pick a fight,

510
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 4: maybe with your spouse or significant other or a child,

511
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 4: or you kick the dog. Those are what we would

512
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 4: call revenge by proxy, or some psychologists would call that

513
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 4: displaced revenge seeking. But it makes you feel better in

514
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 4: that moment. But like all drugs, it's a temporary high,

515
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 4: doesn't last very long, usually leaves you hurting and wanting more.

516
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 4: Donald Trump seems to have had a lifetime of perhaps

517
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 4: sobriety from alcoholism, but has professed in many interviews to

518
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 4: being a huge fan of retaliation and revenge seeking, right,

519
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 4: And so you could make a case. I've never examined him,

520
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 4: and I'm not a psychiatrist, so I couldn't diagnose it,

521
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,480
Speaker 4: but you could make a pretty strong case that he

522
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 4: and others in his administration look like they're struggling with

523
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 4: revenge addiction in a pretty mighty way and not able

524
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 4: to control it. And that's always going to be harmful

525
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 4: to anybody that's caught up in that and the people

526
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 4: around them.

527
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I just wonder if you

528
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 1: could talk to us about what this larger idea of

529
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 1: a culture that is so set on revenge.

530
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 3: Right.

531
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 1: We're seeing a lot of like the cultural questions of revenge.

532
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, I refer to it as a revenge addicted nation.

533
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 4: Right now. America seems like a revenge addicted nation in

534
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 4: many ways, and part of that is the advent for

535
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:47,719
Speaker 4: which humans have not been prepared for.

536
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 3: At all.

537
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 4: And that's the advent of social networking platforms, and they're

538
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 4: a unique ability to spread a grievance, right of feeling

539
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 4: of victimization twis of other people at light speed, almost simultaneously.

540
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 4: So we are getting perhaps millions of people with real

541
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 4: or imagined grievances about the same thing at the same time.

542
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 4: And these platforms also give all of those people the

543
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 4: ability not only to spread that grievance further, but to

544
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 4: either retaliate instantly, right, So we're also the platform gives

545
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 4: you the grievance, and then it gives you the way

546
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 4: to gratify the desire for revenge by firing back, you know, aggressive, mean,

547
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 4: nasty tweets and other messaging, and also to plan and

548
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 4: inspire and encourage other people to join in, you know,

549
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 4: real world outside of the virtue their iOS right acts

550
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 4: of retaliation, such as the you know, the January sixth insurrection,

551
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 4: in which an imagined grievance about the election caused a

552
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 4: group of people that using social networking to come together

553
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 4: and then have a real world riot at the Capital

554
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 4: revenge riot, you.

555
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 1: Know, yeah, revenge. Rt I interviewed a guy called to

556
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 1: Read Hoffman on Morning Joe. A couple months ago, he

557
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 1: was talking about how good the Internet is an AI

558
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 1: and I was proposing all of it. I have this

559
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 1: theory that while the Internet created a lot of disruptions,

560
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 1: so did the printing press, right and he said something

561
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 1: that was actually really smart that has really stuck with me,

562
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 1: which is he said, the printing press it turned out

563
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 1: to be really great, but it was like about one

564
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 1: hundred years of just complete disaster between those two things.

565
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 1: I mean, is that what we're in right now? Are

566
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 1: we in this sort of I want to say, like

567
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 1: postmodernization of the culture dysfunction? Is that where we are

568
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 1: at this moment?

569
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 4: I think that's possible, and it's a pretty good analogy. There.

570
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 4: There was a lot of warfare and a lot of

571
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 4: revenge seeking right back in those days after let's say,

572
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 4: the Reformation in Martin Luther was spread by that new

573
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 4: technology renting press. And we're seeing something similar to that,

574
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 4: but across much bigger population and much more quickly than

575
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,959
Speaker 4: we did then. But people at that time didn't understand

576
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:14,360
Speaker 4: and wouldn't have that the printing press was able to

577
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:18,920
Speaker 4: spread grievance and retaliation and the ability to retaliate so well,

578
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 4: and it didn't do one thing that modern technology does,

579
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:26,359
Speaker 4: which is it's based on algorithms that actually further that.

580
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:30,840
Speaker 4: So the algorithms want to us to engage more often,

581
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 4: and since revenge is such an addictive process, it's like

582
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 4: the you know, the social networking platforms are feeding us

583
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 4: the drug, right, They're the system that enable us to

584
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 4: get these painful experiences of grievance and then these amazingly

585
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 4: pleasurable experiences of retaliation twenty four to seven, you know,

586
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 4: seven days a week exactly.

587
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:58,759
Speaker 1: So online is obviously making a problem worse. But is

588
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 1: the problem existing just because of the internet, or is

589
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 1: this a problem that's always happened, And is it getting

590
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 1: less bad because it's not happening in real life even

591
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:11,280
Speaker 1: though it is sort of happening in real life.

592
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's more about it's a problem that's

593
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:19,279
Speaker 4: always existed. So evolutionary psychologists theorize the leading theory is

594
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:25,359
Speaker 4: is that we developed this pleasurable experience in retaliating maybe

595
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:29,279
Speaker 4: eleven thousand years ago or or longer, as humans came

596
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 4: to live in societies and needed ways to cooperate and

597
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 4: cause people to obey social norms and you know, not

598
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 4: steal things from you, your cave, or from your neighbor.

599
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 4: So the desire for revenge is natural, and it was

600
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 4: an adaptive strategy back then. Where it becomes pathological and dangerous,

601
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:52,799
Speaker 4: in particular, is now in modern society, where instead of

602
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:58,400
Speaker 4: retaliating for survival purposes or to pass on our genetic

603
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 4: imprint to the next generation, we retaliate for just because

604
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:07,399
Speaker 4: our egos have been offended or her or our politics

605
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 4: or our you know, we have revenge born. We have

606
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 4: all these types of experiences of grievance, insult, and victimization

607
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 4: that are not that our retaliation for those are not

608
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,959
Speaker 4: driven by a need to survive. It's not a flight

609
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 4: or flight kind of situation. And it's always for a

610
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 4: wrong of the past, so you're not presented. Revenge is

611
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 4: always past looking. It's you know, it's always going to

612
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:38,960
Speaker 4: be punishing somebody for something they did, you know, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months,

613
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:42,279
Speaker 4: years and years ago. That's where that goes. So I

614
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 4: think today the systems are making it much worse because

615
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 4: it's able to spread grievance like a virus. It's blowing

616
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 4: grievances into our faces right out of our cell phones

617
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 4: and computers all day long, and we've never had to

618
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 4: face that kind of onslaught before from something that we

619
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 4: spend platforms like these that we spend so much of

620
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 4: our time on. And the last part of the addiction

621
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 4: puzzle is the prefrontal cortex, that executive function, self control

622
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 4: area of our brain. And when that is hijacked or

623
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 4: inhibited so that we're actually carrying out revenge seeking despite

624
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:31,319
Speaker 4: the negative consequences, that's when it moves pathological, because it

625
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:34,279
Speaker 4: moves out of an adaptive strategy into one that is

626
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 4: harming ourselves and harming others. And you can't become the

627
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:41,160
Speaker 4: instrument of someone else's pain without feeling that pain yourself.

628
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,240
Speaker 4: And you also are putting yourself in harm's way because

629
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 4: your act of just revenge seeking. Justice seeking in the

630
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 4: form of revenge becomes the targets unjust victimization and spurs

631
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:58,880
Speaker 4: them to experience a new desire for revenge back against you.

632
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 4: And we see that in politics.

633
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:04,880
Speaker 1: So it makes everything worse, that's right, And this is

634
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 1: the hyper polarization.

635
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 4: Thing, right, right, But this is the hyperness of it, yes, correct.

636
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 1: How do you get out of this? Give everyone prozac? Right?

637
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 1: The huge doses of prozac.

638
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,920
Speaker 4: And that probably the prozac probably wouldn't help because that's

639
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:23,319
Speaker 4: going to take down anxiety, which is a great thing,

640
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 4: but isn't really this problem so our problem with revenge seeking.

641
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 4: Prozac hasn't been found, for instance, to be the cure

642
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 4: for addictions. It's not really prescribed for addictions. So that's

643
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:36,920
Speaker 4: really not the right one what we need to think about.

644
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 4: So we have two options.

645
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 1: Wait, hot, take here for one second, not to hijack

646
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 1: this interview with my own mental health problems, but what

647
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:46,880
Speaker 1: I've noticed from myself and my own mental health problems

648
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 1: is that prozac does not work on me as someone

649
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:53,320
Speaker 1: who's sober a long time, but effects or for whatever reason,

650
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:55,839
Speaker 1: effects or is just the greatest drug ever.

651
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:58,719
Speaker 4: That is interesting, And I can't comment because you know,

652
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 4: I'm not that kind of docs, so I don't know.

653
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 4: Are you my doctor, and nor are your doctor? That's correct,

654
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 4: for sure, that's right. What is probably more likely to work,

655
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 4: right are going to be the addiction prevention and treatment

656
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 4: strategies that are already in our toolkit for other addictive disorders.

657
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 4: So that can mean to start with, that can be

658
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:28,360
Speaker 4: cognitive behavioral therapy, counseling, motivational interviewing, self help strategies, and

659
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 4: things like that. We may also find and it hasn't

660
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 4: been studied yet, but I'm hoping that this will start soon.

661
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 4: Things like meloxone and maybe even GLP one, drugs like

662
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 4: ozema and we go v that are have been shown

663
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 4: to help people control craving, because that seems to be

664
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,400
Speaker 4: where this is all centered in the brain. It's that

665
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 4: addiction craving desire that motivates us to go out and

666
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 4: harm the people who we think are all on us

667
00:39:56,520 --> 00:40:00,439
Speaker 4: or their proxies, including not only if somebody cuts you off,

668
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:03,800
Speaker 4: raising ahead to either flip the finger or cut them off,

669
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:07,920
Speaker 4: or even worse, pulling a gun up through mass shootings,

670
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:14,840
Speaker 4: intimate partner violence, school bullying, gang violence and street violence, extremism, terrorism,

671
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:18,880
Speaker 4: and even war. All of those are born out of

672
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:25,320
Speaker 4: this grievance desire for revenge brain biological process that we're

673
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:27,920
Speaker 4: just now understanding. But if we see it as an

674
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:31,759
Speaker 4: addictive process, we can use these addiction prevention to treatment strategies,

675
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:35,239
Speaker 4: starting with things like as well public health campaigns to

676
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:37,920
Speaker 4: warn people about the dangers of what happens when you

677
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:40,319
Speaker 4: have a grievance and this desire for revenge, and that

678
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:42,799
Speaker 4: although it's going to happen, there are things you can

679
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:46,160
Speaker 4: do about it. The other that's just one side of it.

680
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 4: The best thing you can do, and there's a whole

681
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 4: body of brand new neuroscience on this. That's even more

682
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:54,800
Speaker 4: exciting to me than the revenge side is what happens

683
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:58,800
Speaker 4: in your brain when you simply imagine forgiving a grievance

684
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:01,880
Speaker 4: or somebody that's done something wrong to you, even without

685
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:04,799
Speaker 4: communicating with them. It's not a gift to them, it's

686
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:07,600
Speaker 4: a gift of healing for yourself. And what happens when

687
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:10,400
Speaker 4: you forgive is it reverses. It turns out all of

688
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:13,560
Speaker 4: these things that I just described inside your brain for

689
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 4: revenge seeking. It shuts down the pain network inside your brain,

690
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:22,359
Speaker 4: It shuts down the craving circuitry, and it restores your

691
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:23,799
Speaker 4: self control circuitry.

692
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 1: So basically everything we do in AA is right.

693
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:32,080
Speaker 4: That whole forgiveness piece and the the you know this,

694
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 4: you know kind of owning that. And although AA is

695
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 4: really strong about going out right and making that apology

696
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 4: to the person you're wrong, and that's nice and it's

697
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:45,839
Speaker 4: very powerful, But what we're finding is is that forgiving

698
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:48,640
Speaker 4: of yourself is critical.

699
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:51,920
Speaker 1: Which is what you do when you do that?

700
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:55,920
Speaker 4: Yes, right, and if you're forgiving yourself and anybody that

701
00:41:56,160 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 4: is wronging you just internally and your listeners can experience

702
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:01,600
Speaker 4: this like right away. I mean, if it's safe to

703
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 4: close your eyes right now, think about a grievance that

704
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:07,239
Speaker 4: you have against someone, and you know you have them,

705
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 4: because we all do. We have maybe hundreds of them

706
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 4: every day. But think about that and then think about

707
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 4: just imagine what it would feel like. Just imagine what

708
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 4: it would feel like if you decide, you know what,

709
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 4: I'm going to forgive this. Usually when people do that,

710
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 4: they'll respond and go, oh, I would feel better. I

711
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 4: guess I would feel pretty great. I would feel relieved,

712
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:27,720
Speaker 4: I would feel like this weight off my shoulders, and

713
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:30,720
Speaker 4: and it happens that quickly. Then the matter is simply

714
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 4: doing it again and again and again, until every time

715
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:36,680
Speaker 4: that memory of that grievance comes back in your head

716
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:38,799
Speaker 4: you go, oh, yeah, I'm forgiving this. I'm done with

717
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:42,280
Speaker 4: this one now, and you know, kind of kaboom, it's gone.

718
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:45,960
Speaker 4: It's kind of this wonder drug superpower. If if humans have

719
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 4: that we've sort of, you know, ignored because we think

720
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 4: that maybe it's a weakness or it makes us a doormat,

721
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:55,120
Speaker 4: which is not what it's supposed to do. It doesn't

722
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 4: stop you from acting in self defense or getting out

723
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:01,399
Speaker 4: of a toxic relationship, but it does help you heal

724
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:05,240
Speaker 4: from the wrongs of the past in those relationships very quickly.

725
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 4: It's cheap. You can get it without a prescription. I mean,

726
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 4: there's just you can use it as off as you

727
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 4: want with no side effects. It's just like, there is

728
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 4: nothing better than forgiveness for anybody.

729
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 1: Yes, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.

730
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 3: Fair welcome, No, no moment.

731
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:30,320
Speaker 1: Rick Wilson, Holly Jogfast, I flew here this morning.

732
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 3: And your pilot who flew you there had two certifications,

733
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 3: once called an ATP and the others called a commercial

734
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 3: pilot certificate.

735
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:40,480
Speaker 1: Why do we bring this up?

736
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:43,520
Speaker 3: Well, the new head of the FAA claimed it turns

737
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:45,399
Speaker 3: out you're going to be shocked to hear this from

738
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:49,440
Speaker 3: somebody in the Trump administration claimed falsely that he had

739
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 3: a commercial pilot certificate. He has an instrument rating as

740
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:54,759
Speaker 3: a multi engineer rating, but he does not have a

741
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 3: commercial pilot certificate. It's not that hard to get, but

742
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:01,280
Speaker 3: it's really stupid to lie about having one when you don't.

743
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 1: But also, why does Trump World keep elevating people who

744
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:06,760
Speaker 1: can't tell the truth.

745
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:10,880
Speaker 3: They're not sending their best, They're not the endless parade

746
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 3: of weak, weird, shitty, non effective candidates for these jobs.

747
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:22,360
Speaker 3: It's not coming because Donald Trump has a rich portfolio

748
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:25,360
Speaker 3: of options. This is what he's got. These are the

749
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 3: people that will work for him. Now, it's not a

750
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 3: great world to live in if you're a Trump appointee

751
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:33,840
Speaker 3: at this point, you're in such a group of scales

752
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:37,839
Speaker 3: and weirdos and fuck ups that honestly, why bothered a lie?

753
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 3: Just say I'm a mid range, middling talent nobody who

754
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:45,759
Speaker 3: would like this job. Please, mister Trump, love me. Don't

755
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 3: bother to lie in overstate your qualifications. It just doesn't

756
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 3: work anymore. Rick Wilson, Molly John Fast We'll see you

757
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:53,240
Speaker 3: next week.

758
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in

759
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:04,240
Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear the best

760
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:08,600
Speaker 1: minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If

761
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:11,720
Speaker 1: you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend

762
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:15,320
Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going Thanks for listening,