1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Natalman, and this is Psychoactive, a production 2 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the 3 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: show where we talk about all things drugs. But any 4 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:18,760 Speaker 1: views expressed here do not represent those of I Heeart Media, 5 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, heed, as 6 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not 7 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: even represent my own and nothing contained in this show 8 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: should be used as medical advice or encouragement to use 9 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 1: any type of drug. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. Today is kind 10 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 1: of fun for me because my guest today is somebody 11 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 1: who have been friends with for almost twenty years now 12 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: and have huge admiration and respect for. That's Karl Hart, 13 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 1: the Columbia professor who's written a very important book Drug 14 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: Used for Growing Ups and follow his first other kind 15 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: of semi autographic called book High Price. So Carl, thanks 16 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: a lot for doing this. It's good to see you man. 17 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 1: Yeah you too, Carl. Let's start off with this. You're 18 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 1: in some hotel, maybe about to give a talk, and 19 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: you got the book, and you got somebody says, hey, man, 20 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: I saw you got that book. What's it about. Well, 21 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: the book is called Drug Used for grown Ups and 22 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:25,320 Speaker 1: the subtitle is Chasing Liberty in the Land of Fear. 23 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: I'm just trying to get people to think about their 24 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: own liberty and what it means to be free. That's 25 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 1: that's it. And I'm using the subject that I know 26 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 1: best as a vehicle to help people to think about 27 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 1: their liberty. Uh. And I don't mean liberty in this 28 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: kind of Trumpian sense um, where your liberty Trump's everybody 29 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: else's and you can do whatever the funk you want 30 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 1: to do. That's not what I mean. I mean your 31 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: liberty in that you're not bothering anybody, so why should 32 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: people care what you do? As long as you are 33 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 1: responsible a dope man. I'm using drug use as as 34 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 1: a topic so people can think about their liberty not 35 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: only in this subject, but also with just other subjects. 36 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:12,079 Speaker 1: I mean, from prostitution to a range of things. We 37 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:16,920 Speaker 1: have over police people's personal behaviors and we don't even 38 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 1: think about it anymore. And in this book, I'm trying 39 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 1: to get people to think about why do we do this? 40 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:24,919 Speaker 1: Stupid ship? M hmm, we you don't. I mean, look, 41 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 1: you were on my board of the Drug Policy Alliance 42 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 1: for ten years at the beginning in two thousand and seven, 43 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 1: maybe more than that. And so in terms of what's 44 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 1: wrong with the war on drugs, in terms of mass 45 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 1: incarceration and a deporation of rights and all the harms, 46 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:41,360 Speaker 1: I mean, we're very much together on that. What's unusual, though, 47 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:44,520 Speaker 1: is for you to put the argument of liberties so 48 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: front and center. And I say unusual because typically it's 49 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: something that libertarians do, civil libertarians do. And I will 50 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 1: tell you something that as me, as a white man 51 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 1: advocating on these principles of liberty, I would get a 52 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 1: lot of ship for this, you know, like, oh, you 53 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 1: can talk about your liberty, yeah, but what about poor 54 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:06,640 Speaker 1: people suffering, black and brown people suffering the ghettos? You know, 55 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 1: what's liberty for them? You know that this is the 56 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 1: rich man's How do you how do you respond to 57 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:12,799 Speaker 1: that or how do you deal with that? Because I 58 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 1: love the fact that you did this, but I want 59 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 1: to know the experience of coming out in that argument 60 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 1: for you. Well, you know, in our country in the US, uh, 61 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 1: people think of liberty as a construct owned by the libertarians. Uh. 62 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: And those people don't understand the founding principles of the country. 63 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 1: The founding promise of the country is that we are 64 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 1: all guaranteed life, liberty in the pursuit of happiness. Doesn't 65 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: matter who you are, You're guaranteed those freedoms, those rights. 66 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: And so I'm trying to reclaim liberty for the American 67 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 1: people and not only for the libertarians. This is an 68 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 1: American principle, not a Libertarian principle. But it's a hard 69 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: one for people to understand. And I get it. I 70 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 1: get the fact that some political groups have kind of 71 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 1: owned these kind of principles and and other people who 72 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: have been shut out as a result. But this is 73 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 1: liberty for all, and I'm asking us to live up 74 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 1: to our principles. Make our practice match our promise. That's 75 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 1: all I'm asking you. Go man, I'll tell you years ago, 76 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 1: I got asked to speak at some kind of progressive 77 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: economics conference and it was all people on the left, 78 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 1: progressive liberals, unions, whatever. And I spoke on the second day, 79 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:23,039 Speaker 1: and I get a big speech and I say, you 80 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 1: know something, I've been here for over the whole day, right, 81 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 1: and I share overwhelming the values that the people are here. 82 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 1: But there's two words I have not heard mention in 83 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 1: the entire first day, day and a half of this conference. 84 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 1: And that's of the words freedom and liberty. Right, what 85 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:40,839 Speaker 1: is the left wing seating these these words and these 86 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 1: values to the right. And so I think for you 87 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,359 Speaker 1: coming out on this thing is incredibly important. Now, what 88 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 1: I also liked was, you know, not often does one 89 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 1: see Jerry Garcia, the Grateful Dead Maestro and Martin Luther 90 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:58,840 Speaker 1: King put together making essentially the same argument. So just 91 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:01,599 Speaker 1: elaborate on that one. Yeah, you know, this is a 92 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 1: thing that I wish people read the book because then 93 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: we can see how much overlap, how much connection we 94 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 1: all have in this country in terms of our heroes. 95 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:15,040 Speaker 1: Jerry Garcia was influenced by Martin Luther King, and Martin 96 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 1: Luther King was influenced by the Row and all of 97 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: these people were influenced by what Thomas Jefferson wrote. And 98 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: we know Thomas Jefferson had his problems. Uh And and 99 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 1: of course I I talked about that a little bit. 100 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: But the point is the ideals which these people espoused, 101 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:35,279 Speaker 1: they are ideals that are bigger than the people who 102 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:37,719 Speaker 1: are espousing these ideas. And so I'm trying to get 103 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: the reader to think about these ideas and then if, if, 104 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 1: if we could maybe live up to these ideals, then 105 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 1: we would be a better country. We will be a 106 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:49,720 Speaker 1: more compassionate country. Yeah. You reference went at one point 107 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:52,040 Speaker 1: to a letter from a Birmingham jail by marlou Uther King, 108 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 1: which is something I used to sign to my students 109 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: back when I was teaching a princeton on law in society. 110 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 1: Why did you reference that piece? Yeah, I referenced that 111 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 1: piece because us where King dealt with in that letter 112 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 1: were his allies coming at him. The white ministers were 113 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 1: coming at him, asking him to go slow and saying 114 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 1: that his actions were maybe not prudent. And so he 115 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 1: talked the time and patients to explain why it's so 116 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 1: important to move in the way that he was moving. 117 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 1: In the way that he was moving was simply that 118 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:29,159 Speaker 1: black people in this case deserved their humanity, deserved to 119 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:34,119 Speaker 1: be respected just like everybody else's humanity. And um, there 120 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:37,160 Speaker 1: is no such thing as moving too fast when you 121 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 1: want to make sure people's humanity are respected, and that 122 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 1: that's the same thing with drugs. We say things like 123 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: let's start with this one here, M D M A, 124 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 1: but not heroine here, it's like who gave you the right? 125 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 1: You know, you go back and you talk about the 126 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: history of the criminalization of drugs, about the Chinese and 127 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 1: the opium bands and blacks and their wine, and also 128 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:04,840 Speaker 1: about you know, cocaine and the crazed negro drug fiend. Right, 129 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 1: the story going back a hundred years, and how it's 130 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: manifesting today. Right. I mean you wrote that very powerful 131 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: at been in New York Times a while back about 132 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 1: George Floyd and how the cops trying to say, hey, 133 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: because he was on drugs, right, And so do you 134 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 1: think that more people, and especially more black people are 135 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: beginning to wake up to the things about the anti 136 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: drug piece of this thing when they see so many 137 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 1: I mean one after another. I mean black people are 138 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 1: being killed by the cops, and the cops saying it 139 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: was because of the drug, because he was selling drugs 140 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 1: and he was using or whatever it might be. Do 141 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 1: you see a change happening there? I think so. I 142 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 1: think when you have George Floyd and you have Brianna Taylor, 143 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 1: particularly with someone like Brianna Taylor, um, she was not 144 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 1: in the game, and but the justification was that her 145 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 1: ex boyfriend was in the game and they were just 146 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 1: the cops were justified to come in and kill her. 147 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 1: And I think people are finally starting to see that, 148 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 1: wait a second, this is crazy. No matter how many 149 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 1: drugs this particular person was selling, the were alleged to him, 150 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: So you shouldn't be able to kick someone's door down 151 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 1: and then murder them. And so I think people are 152 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 1: starting to see. People are starting to put together Philando 153 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 1: can still uh he had marijuana and that cop of 154 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 1: shot him to death. Um, we think about Lakwan MacDonald, 155 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 1: the seventeen year old kid in Chicago where they said 156 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 1: that he had PCP in the system and he was 157 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 1: shot sixteen time. I think people are putting it together, 158 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 1: particularly now in this age where we see the police abuses, 159 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 1: and people are starting to see that drugs are always 160 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 1: used as this convenient scapegoat to justify this awful behavior. 161 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 1: And so on the one hand, I'm really happy that 162 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:48,719 Speaker 1: people are starting to see. On the other hand, it 163 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: makes me um profoundly sad that we have to steal 164 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:59,079 Speaker 1: deal with this particular issue when it goes all the 165 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 1: way back to the turn up the last century, the 166 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 1: turn up the twentieth century, and we're still dealing with it. 167 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: So that makes me profoundly sad. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. 168 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 1: I almost don't know where to go from there. I mean, 169 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:15,840 Speaker 1: it's the question of, well, let me put it this way. 170 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 1: You know, sometimes I think we know and you and 171 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 1: I have both been out there talking for years and 172 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:22,679 Speaker 1: you can speak to it from a much more personal 173 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: basis about the role that race and racism has played 174 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: in the war on drugs going back to the early years, 175 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 1: and the multiple levels at which it plays down, and 176 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 1: so we know that racism permeates this. It permeates why 177 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 1: blacks get treated different than white It's like the crack 178 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 1: powder laws and tougher penalties on crack. It permeates on 179 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 1: so many different levels. But you know, sometimes I put 180 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:45,680 Speaker 1: out there that there's another ism that we're not even 181 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 1: willing to deal with, and for lack of a better term, 182 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 1: it's druggism, right that there is. Now it's not longer possible, 183 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:53,959 Speaker 1: at least publicly to say racist things. I mean, now 184 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 1: on the trumpet begins to become possible again. But basically 185 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 1: that's been delegitimized and you can lose your job. There's 186 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: all sorts of things for making a comment that sounds 187 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: at all racist, right, But when it comes to druggism, 188 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 1: when it comes to disparaging addicts junkies, when it comes 189 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 1: to making assumption about them, that seems to be one 190 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 1: of the last remaining really legitimate prejudices, and not just 191 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: on the right, even across the political spectrum. No, you're 192 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 1: absolutely right when we speak about this language in terms 193 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:23,679 Speaker 1: of the role of rais and uh drug policy or 194 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: drug policy being used to subjugate like black people, for example. 195 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 1: The thing that I have to be careful about is 196 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:33,440 Speaker 1: I have to not be lazy, and when I'm lazy, 197 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 1: I might say that drug policy is used to subjugate 198 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 1: black people, when in fact that's just an example of 199 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:43,199 Speaker 1: how drug policy is used. But drug policy is really 200 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:46,960 Speaker 1: used to subjugate the powerless, the people on the margins 201 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 1: of our society. And then I can give an example 202 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 1: of how black people are disproportionately arrested, but I can 203 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 1: give another example to talk about white folks in Oklahoma 204 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 1: who use methamphetamy, they are also disproportionately subjugated. And I 205 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 1: can talk about the users in the Philippines. They're being 206 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 1: subjugated for the same reasons. And so um, that's why 207 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:12,560 Speaker 1: I have to be careful so that people understand that 208 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 1: this is a universal sort of thing that's going on 209 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 1: with drug policy. It's not unique to black people. But 210 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 1: in the United States, um our drug policy. Because we 211 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:26,320 Speaker 1: have this conspicuous difference in our race, it makes it 212 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 1: easier to point to it. But don't get it twisted. 213 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 1: This is the universal thing. And the people who are 214 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 1: in the middle classes, who have power, who are the 215 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 1: educated class, Um, they're not being subjugated in the same way. 216 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:43,080 Speaker 1: In fact, they are so busy distancing themselves from the 217 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: methamphetamine users, from the heroin user, from the black user, 218 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 1: what have you, and so um, these laws are not 219 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: equally applied as we know. Yeah, you know, it's interesting 220 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 1: because it's another commonality we have in this thing. You know, 221 00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 1: for many years, going back decades, I would go to 222 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 1: speak safety annual conferences of Normal the Marijuana Legalization Group, 223 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:05,319 Speaker 1: which I support, and they were fighting for legalization and 224 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,200 Speaker 1: they're my allies. But sometimes people we get up there 225 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 1: and say, you know, we gotta legalize marijuana so we 226 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 1: can crack down on the meth heads. And I with them, 227 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 1: lecture them and say no matter what you think of 228 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 1: mess and even if it is a more dangerous drug, 229 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 1: that's no basis for treating those folks differently. And make 230 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 1: the analogy to the First Amendment. The first a moment 231 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:26,839 Speaker 1: doesn't just protect elevated speech, right, it also protects you know, 232 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: quote unquote ugly speech less elevated speech. We'll be talking 233 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:47,320 Speaker 1: more after we hear this. Add what you do in 234 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 1: this book that I think really breaks some new ground 235 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:58,960 Speaker 1: in different ways. Isn't talking about myth amphetamine, heroin, PCP 236 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: in a way that really, I mean, very few people have. 237 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 1: I know, I put my toe in the water, but 238 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 1: you take it many steps further. And so, you know, 239 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 1: and we see that with marijuana, right, we see that 240 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:14,200 Speaker 1: Mariana legalization, we've radically changed that, you know, from reform 241 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 1: madness and brain on drug stuff and all that that's turned. 242 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: Now psychedelics is kind of opening up and changing people's 243 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:22,960 Speaker 1: minds and things like that. But there's other drugs, the 244 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:24,599 Speaker 1: ones who are most of what people are going to 245 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:27,679 Speaker 1: prison for selling and possessing. You take on those one. 246 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:30,960 Speaker 1: So let's just start off with meth amphetamine, because that's 247 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 1: something you've been studying for a long time, and you've 248 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 1: produced reports and studies on that thing. So can you 249 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:41,080 Speaker 1: explain to our listeners, you know why what they may 250 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 1: think about methamphetamine is more or less flat out wrong. Yeah, 251 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,559 Speaker 1: So when when I think about methymphetamine, Uh, it's important 252 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 1: for the listener to know one thing, Adderall the methymphetamine 253 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:54,599 Speaker 1: are essentially the same compound adderall. Of course, it is 254 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 1: the medication that's used to treat attention deficit disorder. Methamphetamine 255 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 1: also is at the proved to treat attention deficit disorder 256 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:06,679 Speaker 1: as well as obesity. UM. The only difference between the 257 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 1: active ingredients and adderall, which is d amphetamine. The only 258 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 1: difference between d emphetamine and methamphetamine is an additional methyl group, 259 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: and that method group, we have said in research makes 260 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 1: it easier for the methomphetamine across the blood brain barriers 261 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 1: such that it gets into the brain more rapidly, so 262 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 1: there's a more rapid onset of effects. Now, there is 263 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: no data in humans to prove that or show that 264 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 1: this is mainly uh kind of based on animal studies 265 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 1: and speculations about what that sort of increased lip solubilility means. Now, 266 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 1: we have said that that makes methamphetamin more reinforcing, that 267 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: is more addictive. Again, no evidence to show that, because 268 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 1: all of the evidence when you test methomphetamy against UH, 269 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 1: something like a d amphetamy UH in the same human 270 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 1: users they choose used to take the drugs on the 271 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 1: same number of occasions, and the self administration patterns look 272 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 1: the same. Humans can't distinguish between the two drugs on 273 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 1: the double blind conditions. So methamphetamine is essentially the same 274 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 1: drug that people are taking in adderall. Not that's not 275 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: to say that people should stop taking their adderall because 276 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 1: this is such a danger struct No, that's the same 277 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 1: that methemphetamine. It's f the approved for a reason because 278 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 1: it's effective, because it's a safe medication when used in 279 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 1: the doses when the medication is prescribed. So they are 280 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 1: essentially the same drug. Now, what people see in the 281 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 1: natural ecology is that methamphetamine use is primarily smoking or injection, 282 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 1: and so rout of administration certainly impacts the speed at 283 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 1: which the drug reaches the brain. It also impacts a 284 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: number of things the conditions under which the drug is taken. 285 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 1: So what people are really seeing is a function of 286 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 1: the legality of the drug, the route of administration, and 287 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: all of these sorts of things, but not the drug itself. 288 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: But they are attributing all these factors to the drug, 289 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 1: when in fact it's really about these sort of psycho 290 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 1: social characteristics are factors more so than the pharmacological factors. 291 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 1: So if I were to summon up by saying that 292 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 1: if you were to take that, I don't know ten million, 293 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:25,680 Speaker 1: twenty million. However, many young mostly boys, are being prescribed 294 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 1: adderall today and substitute for that an equivalent dose of 295 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 1: oral meth amphetamine. Probably those kids would not even know 296 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: the difference, or it would be roughly comparable. And conversely, 297 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 1: if you were to crush up those kids adderall and 298 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: smoke or injected, it would be fairly indistinguishable from the 299 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 1: people using kind of underground illicit meth amphetamine smoking ejecting 300 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 1: that apart from maybe the effect of the contaminants in 301 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 1: the illegally produced stuff. Absolutely. And another thing about adderall 302 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 1: is that it has three amphetamines. There's an L, there's 303 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 1: a d UH and the L doesn't cross as well 304 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:05,640 Speaker 1: as the D doesn't cross the blood brain barrier as well, 305 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:10,639 Speaker 1: and so the adderall has more cardiovascular activity that I 306 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:14,479 Speaker 1: don't really need um, and so UM, I think that 307 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,719 Speaker 1: the D and methamphetamine is actually more ideal. You know, 308 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:21,240 Speaker 1: I got my doctor to prescribed to me blow dose 309 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 1: five milligram dextro amphetamine. You know, I told him I 310 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 1: needed for jet lag, which is true, and you know 311 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 1: I use it occasionally. UM. And then at one time 312 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 1: I got a friend of mine to give me one 313 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 1: of his kids adderalls, and my sense was that adderall 314 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 1: was more kind of jagged e like. It almost felt 315 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 1: like the dextro amphetamine was a smoother one. And it 316 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 1: made me wonder, why aren't they using dexter amphetamine with kids. 317 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: Was there a possibility it actually might be better for 318 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 1: many young teenagers or is there some good reason not 319 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:51,920 Speaker 1: to be doing that. Well, they do use a D 320 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:55,159 Speaker 1: M fetamine dexterro emphetamine for kids. First it owned the 321 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:59,440 Speaker 1: market of the tension deficit disorder UH and then Riddland. 322 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 1: Eventually they tuck over. But then adderall hit the scene 323 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 1: because Shire of Pharmaceuticals marketed and told physicians that, oh 324 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: it's a slower onset of effects and this is better, 325 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:15,120 Speaker 1: and they had this big marketing campaign and that's why 326 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 1: people are prescribed adderall because of Shires effective marketing campaign, 327 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 1: not because of the effectiveness of the medication. So while 328 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:26,359 Speaker 1: we're on the subject of big pharma, the one that's 329 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 1: most notorious, right is Perdue Pharma, right in the Sackler 330 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:34,359 Speaker 1: family and their creation of of oxycontent, a drug that 331 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 1: appeared to be a really very effective pain controlled drug 332 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:41,640 Speaker 1: for some people living with serious pain, but which then 333 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 1: you know, it appeared they over to marketed quite seriously. 334 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 1: I mean, how much do you hold Perdue Pharma sort 335 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 1: of responsible for the kind of starting phase of this 336 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 1: significant expansion of opioid related fatalities in the beginning of 337 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 1: this century. They certainly deserve some responsibility here because they 338 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 1: got the FDA to schedule oxycotton at a lower level. 339 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 1: It wasn't a scheduled too, I think it was scheduled three, 340 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 1: whereas other opioids were scheduled too. They said it was 341 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:15,000 Speaker 1: less addictive than the other opioids, which was not true. Uh, 342 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 1: And so they deserve some responsibility there, of course. But 343 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 1: when we think about, uh, the fact that people are 344 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:27,439 Speaker 1: dying from drug related overdoses. Uh, An important reason that 345 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: people are dying from drug related overdoses is because people 346 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: are getting contaminated drugs on the street, and that's an 347 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 1: easy fix. You can just make sure that people have 348 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:39,679 Speaker 1: a clean supply or safe supply, or make sure that 349 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:42,720 Speaker 1: they have access to drug checking so you can check 350 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 1: and see what's contained in your your substance. That's an 351 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 1: easy fix. And we as an American public, we haven't 352 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 1: done that. But yet we're blaming the pharmaceutical company for 353 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 1: that which they have nothing to do with that. And 354 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:58,440 Speaker 1: we also blamed the pharmaceutical company for like addiction rates, 355 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 1: when the fiction um has nothing to do with the 356 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: drug itself. Addiction is mainly related to all these other 357 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 1: psycho social factors, like beginning in the nineteen seventies and 358 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 1: continuing in the eighties, when all of these factories left 359 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:17,199 Speaker 1: the Midwest, they left the rust belt places, and people 360 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 1: who once had jobs that paid the middle class salaries 361 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 1: they no longer had it. They once had standing in 362 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 1: that community, they no longer had it. That increases the 363 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,440 Speaker 1: likelihood that people will become addicted to have all kinds 364 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:31,640 Speaker 1: of problems. And we see that sort of thing, but 365 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:34,439 Speaker 1: we don't talk about all of these other sort of 366 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 1: issues that are involved. Instead we just say perdue, Yeah, Carl, 367 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 1: I mean, well you're talking about, obviously is what people 368 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:43,119 Speaker 1: have referred to as these deaths is to spare right, 369 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: the high rates of alcoholism, opioid misused suicide happening in 370 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 1: parts of the country, you know, whether black, brown, or white, 371 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 1: where people have been struggling, and especially sometimes where people 372 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:55,439 Speaker 1: are downwardly mobile. But the other thing I think when 373 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 1: you're talking about is the thing about the pharmaceutical companies. 374 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously they're all really aggressive. Promoting of this 375 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:05,680 Speaker 1: stuff created a problem, as did ignorant doctors and ignorant 376 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,360 Speaker 1: nurses and patients wanting to pop a pill, and insurance 377 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 1: companies not wanting to pay for this stuff, all those things. 378 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 1: But interestingly, when they were getting it there, those drugs 379 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: were relatively pure, and once they started once and started 380 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 1: to crack down for some good reason on the pharmaceudical companies, 381 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 1: people started turn to even more black market drugs, first 382 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 1: heroin and then fenton al And so there was a 383 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:31,199 Speaker 1: paradoxical thing where the crackdown the pharmaceutical companies may have 384 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 1: actually made the overdose epidemic even worse than or otherwise 385 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:37,399 Speaker 1: would have been. Yeah, we know that when you have 386 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: the crackdown in the legitimate source, then you have the 387 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 1: illegal sources pop up. Absolutely. Um just I have to 388 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:49,639 Speaker 1: be careful when we talk about this thing we're calling 389 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,200 Speaker 1: the opioid crisis, and we're talking about overdoses. In the book, 390 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 1: I try to help the reader understand that these things 391 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:01,440 Speaker 1: that we're calling overdoses and we're blaming opiates for, we 392 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:06,160 Speaker 1: don't really know that opioids are the actual causal agent 393 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:09,239 Speaker 1: for the overdose. UH and I try to walk the 394 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:14,440 Speaker 1: reader through how medical examiners and corners do their death 395 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 1: investigations and the level of education that's needed to be 396 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: a corner in most locations are high school diplomas. That's 397 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:27,480 Speaker 1: all you need and a few hours of a death 398 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 1: investigation course. And there's no uniformity in terms of how 399 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:36,160 Speaker 1: these death investigations are done. Most of the people who 400 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 1: die from drug related overdoses have multiple drugs in their system, 401 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:43,679 Speaker 1: and then there is no levels that are measured to 402 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: determine what drug might have been the causal agent, and 403 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 1: in some cases they don't even get biological confirmation that 404 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 1: that was actually opioids in the system. And so UH, 405 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:01,200 Speaker 1: I asked the reader to really think about what's going on, 406 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:05,880 Speaker 1: Because dying from a single opioid like heroin, it's not 407 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:10,159 Speaker 1: the easiest thing to do, particularly something like fantonol. Of course, 408 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 1: a single drug one can die from more readily. I mean, basically, 409 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:16,960 Speaker 1: what you're saying is that the large majority of what 410 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:22,119 Speaker 1: are called over those fatalities are really fatal drug combination fatalities, right, 411 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 1: I mean, it's that mix, and that the media and 412 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:27,479 Speaker 1: sometimes the corners, you know, rather what I didn't saying, oh, 413 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 1: this was a fatal drug combination, or saying this was 414 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:32,920 Speaker 1: a benzo death or an alcohol death or a set 415 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,440 Speaker 1: amath and death. They just call it an opioid death 416 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:37,959 Speaker 1: because that's easy. That's what the media wants to report. 417 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:39,960 Speaker 1: Or even if the small print doesn't say that, that's 418 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: what the headline writers put up there. That's exactly it. Now, 419 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 1: it also seems to me that what you're saying about federal, though, 420 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 1: is that federal is in a bit of a special category. 421 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 1: They've given that it's what fifty times more potent per 422 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:55,720 Speaker 1: milligram or whatever than heroin. People can die just from 423 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 1: a straight federal way in a way that was unusual 424 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,359 Speaker 1: with heroin or oxyes or things like at Now that 425 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,120 Speaker 1: seems to me to maybe present one of the strongest 426 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 1: arguments for some form of legalization or safe supply of opialities. Absolutely, 427 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 1: people will use opioids. People will use drugs. The question 428 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: before us as a society is how do we best 429 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:22,639 Speaker 1: keep people safe? And it seems as though we have 430 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:26,440 Speaker 1: been comfortable and pretending that people won't use drugs and 431 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 1: allowing people who do use these drugs to uh engage 432 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:35,400 Speaker 1: in this precarious activity of taking drugs that are purchased 433 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,880 Speaker 1: on the list of market. To me, that's not what 434 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 1: responsible society should do, particularly one that claims to be 435 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:47,120 Speaker 1: proponents of life liberty in the pursuit of happiness. Now, 436 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:48,880 Speaker 1: you talk a fair bit in the book at many 437 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:52,879 Speaker 1: places about drugs safety testing, right, testing the quality of 438 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,880 Speaker 1: what the pills are, and just explain why that's so important. Yeah, 439 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,359 Speaker 1: we call that drug checking or drug purity checking, drug 440 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:04,360 Speaker 1: purity checking um. It occurs in a number of countries 441 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:11,120 Speaker 1: including Portugal, the Netherlands, Austria's, Spain, Colombia, uh and none 442 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:14,879 Speaker 1: of these countries have so called opioid overdose crises or 443 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 1: any overdose crises. Drug checking what it does is that 444 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 1: it allows UH drug users to submit anonymously UH small 445 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 1: samples of their drug UH and then get a print 446 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:30,880 Speaker 1: out of what's contained in that sample. These subances are 447 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 1: free and they're done with the primary goal of keeping 448 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:40,440 Speaker 1: people safe, so people are not exposed to UH poisons, adulterants, 449 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 1: or other toxins that might be in UH the illicit 450 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 1: drug supply. And so I have been advocating that we 451 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:51,159 Speaker 1: do the same thing in this country. We have the technology, UH, 452 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:55,120 Speaker 1: we certainly have the resources, but we haven't and we 453 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 1: have one of the biggest sort of overdose concerns, but 454 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:02,639 Speaker 1: yet we have not made these services available to our people. 455 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 1: So when politicians say that they care about the opioid 456 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,120 Speaker 1: crisis or the health of the public, and they are 457 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 1: not advocating for these services, then you know that they 458 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 1: really don't give a ship. Well, let me I say, 459 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 1: can these testing services checking services also detect the potency 460 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 1: of a sample? Yes, UH, they can detect the potency, 461 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:27,639 Speaker 1: They can detect the amounts UH and all of the substance. 462 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 1: Because our seeing now, I think especially the harm reduction 463 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 1: programs either on the US right doing these sentinel testing strips. 464 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 1: Since you're trying to detect the presidents of fentanyl. Na, No, no, no, 465 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 1: that's a joke. Man. That ship is a joke. I mean, obviously, 466 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 1: if that's all you got, Okay, I get it. But 467 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 1: for a country like ours with so many resources, for 468 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: the people who have to revert to using fentanyl strips, 469 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:54,880 Speaker 1: that's a shame. I mean that this is a shame 470 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:59,159 Speaker 1: because it only detect fentanyl and some pentonel and not 471 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,399 Speaker 1: any other of compounds that might be uh contained in 472 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 1: the substance. And and we have the technology, so to 473 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:10,159 Speaker 1: pretend that that's a fix, or to pretend that that 474 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 1: that's what we should be doing, it's insulting, particularly when 475 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 1: they're doing this in Colombia, in Austria. It's a joke. 476 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it follows in a long line, right 477 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 1: of opposing needle exchange programs because it might encourage people 478 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 1: to say shooting drugs is safe. Of opposing the lock 479 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 1: zone because it might make people feel safe for using opioids. Right, 480 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 1: it's that whole thing or where the politicos and the 481 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 1: public health folks are scared if even when they know better, 482 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: I mean, if even goes back to a hundred years 483 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 1: ago when they used to talk about giving how condoms 484 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 1: to soldiers, and people say, how can you do that? 485 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 1: It's gonna make it safer to have extramarital sex or 486 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 1: illicit sex or whatever. That's the thing that is remarkable 487 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 1: to me, and that why should I care what someone 488 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 1: else is doing? As long as they're not bothering other 489 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,360 Speaker 1: folks and long is that they are not preventing other 490 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,360 Speaker 1: people from enjoying their rights. Who am I to say 491 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,919 Speaker 1: what they should be doing? They are adults. You know, 492 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:06,920 Speaker 1: you're talking the book about the novel psychoactive substances, things 493 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 1: that became known as bass salts or these synthetic cathinones 494 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,439 Speaker 1: are synthetic cannabinoids and things like that where it seems 495 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,680 Speaker 1: like the drug checking would be incredibly valuable because often 496 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 1: has people have no idea what their getting. Yeah, we 497 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:23,200 Speaker 1: vilified the cathinones, uh, these bath salts. Again, we lied 498 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 1: about the effects of these cathinones. Many of these captain 499 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,679 Speaker 1: oons produce effects similar to M D M A and 500 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:34,359 Speaker 1: similar to cocaine um. But we said that these catherinons 501 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 1: make people bite other people's faces off, And of course 502 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 1: that's not true. And I detail that story of the 503 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 1: Miami cannibal and how that person never had any cathinones 504 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 1: in the system. But that's not what the press said. So, UM, 505 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 1: don't believe the hype about the catanones. Uh. Many of 506 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 1: these cathinones produced in D M A like effects, and 507 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,480 Speaker 1: they produce cocaine like effects. You wrote in the book 508 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 1: about assuming at one point that you could do a 509 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 1: double blind test and that people taking extra amphetamine and 510 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,719 Speaker 1: m d m A would have the same response to it, 511 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 1: and then being somewhat surprised that that actually wasn't the case. 512 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 1: The reason why I thought that they were produced nearly 513 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 1: identical effects is because when you look at them chemically, 514 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 1: they looked nearly identical. M d M A has a 515 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 1: methyline dioxy ring added to the methomphetamine structure. I thought 516 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 1: that they were produced effects that would be nearly identical, 517 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:37,479 Speaker 1: and sure enough, when we looked at some cognitive tests, 518 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 1: they produced a lot of overlapping effects. Uh, some different 519 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 1: effects whereas m d m A disrupted some performance, methomphetamine 520 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: improved performance, but they produced a lot of overlapping effects. 521 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: But that's not what people say. In the natural ecology 522 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 1: and the natural ecology people say that nah, M B 523 00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 1: M A, there's nothing like it. You know, this empathy, 524 00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 1: the openness, this connection with others. And at that point 525 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 1: in my career I had tried me them fettermy, but 526 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 1: I hadn't tried M D M A. But then I 527 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,920 Speaker 1: tried M D M A and then I saw like, oh, well, 528 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 1: maybe our lab measures are the problem in that we 529 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 1: just are not capturing the unique bits of M D 530 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:23,880 Speaker 1: M A. Let's take a break here and go to 531 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 1: an ad M. Carl And I know you gave a 532 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 1: lot of thought to this one part of the book, 533 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 1: and it's the one that's gotten a lot of attention, 534 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 1: which is the way you talk about heroin. Just gonna 535 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 1: read a few of the good quotes you had in there. 536 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 1: At one point you say, there aren't many things in 537 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 1: life that I enjoy more than a few lines by 538 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 1: the fireplace at the end of the day. I think 539 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:53,240 Speaker 1: you said, listen to Billie Holiday, And then you said 540 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 1: Heroin enhances my ability to feel and think. You said, 541 00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 1: I also want to ensure that others are afforded safe 542 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,760 Speaker 1: out tunity needs to benefit from the serene bliss opioids 543 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 1: can offer. Should they so choose now I will admit 544 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 1: that heroine's always scared me. I mean, I've tried it 545 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 1: a numerous times to see what it's like. I mean, 546 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:14,040 Speaker 1: the last time I did it was with you and 547 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 1: another friend in Europe a few years ago, you know, 548 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 1: so you know, and my friends always made sure that 549 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 1: I took just a low dose, and they were watching 550 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 1: al for me and say, you know, look, if you're 551 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 1: gonna have a drink afterwards, be moderate. But I got 552 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 1: to admit there was something about heroin that scared me 553 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 1: almost not unlike the way that tobacco and nicotine scare me. 554 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 1: That there's a stickiness to those drugs that if you 555 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 1: start to like them too much, they just make the 556 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 1: hard to detach yourself from. And you describe going through 557 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 1: a withdrawal experience. What I love about it is you're 558 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 1: out there saying, you know, for all you marijuana and 559 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 1: psycholic exceptionalists, it's not just the political principle that shouldn't 560 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 1: be exceptional, it's actually a way we think about these 561 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:56,640 Speaker 1: drugs and understanding that they actually can play a beneficial 562 00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 1: role in your life. So just say more about you're 563 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,680 Speaker 1: coming from on that and how you feel about that, 564 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 1: and if you feel like talking about how people have 565 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 1: responded to that. Yeah, what heroin is the boogeyman drug 566 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 1: of course in the United States. And so h your 567 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 1: point about liking it too much and then getting attached 568 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,960 Speaker 1: to it, think about that for a minute. You know, 569 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 1: there still is nothing better than the sexual orgasm. But 570 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 1: do we hear people saying ship like m, I better 571 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 1: stay away from this orgasm because I might get too attached. 572 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's just a matter of when we 573 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,479 Speaker 1: have these drugs be illegal, then we have to go 574 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 1: through all of these various obstacles to get the substance, 575 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,480 Speaker 1: and that plays a role in terms of the addictive 576 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 1: potential of the something. And so I don't think heroin 577 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 1: is particularly addictive. Of course, it can produce physical dependence, 578 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,880 Speaker 1: so two can alcohol, So too can your antidepressant. A 579 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 1: number of these drugs can produce physical depends. But the 580 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 1: majority of people who use heroin are not addicted to 581 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 1: the substance. But they just don't say that they use 582 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:11,880 Speaker 1: heroin because of this negative sort of view that we 583 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,560 Speaker 1: have of heroin. You alluded to how people have responded 584 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:19,200 Speaker 1: to me admitting to having used heroin. In fact, people 585 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 1: would like to dismiss me simply because I've used heroin. 586 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 1: And so imagine that somebody like me who published more 587 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:30,000 Speaker 1: than a hundred scientific papers, three books, and people are 588 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 1: trying to dismiss me. Imagine what they will do to 589 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 1: other people who don't have such a record. So I 590 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: I get it. I understand why people don't say they 591 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 1: use heroin, and so it gives this impression that certainly, uh, 592 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 1: this drug is so addictive that you shouldn't do it. 593 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:50,600 Speaker 1: And then the filmmakers, the documentary filmmakers, the TV filmmakers, 594 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,800 Speaker 1: the comedians, they need heroin as a foil because then 595 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 1: they can describe drug addiction in this awful way and 596 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,840 Speaker 1: they use herible. And imagine if comedians didn't have these 597 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 1: drugs to make fun of. Imagine if the documentary film 598 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:10,040 Speaker 1: had somebody like me who've used these drugs and go 599 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 1: on with their life, take care of their family, have 600 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:14,920 Speaker 1: a happy life. That would be boring. And so we 601 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:18,840 Speaker 1: need heroin in this culture to vilify for all of 602 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:22,440 Speaker 1: these pop culture sort of reasons. You mentioned that I 603 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:27,640 Speaker 1: went through heroin withdrawal. It was intentional, so I could say, okay, um, 604 00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:31,279 Speaker 1: it's something, it happens. But it's not life threatening like 605 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,360 Speaker 1: alcohol withdrawal, it's life threatening. I will never put myself 606 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:38,399 Speaker 1: intentionally through alcohol withdrawal because I would be afraid of 607 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 1: the life threatening effects. But heroin withdrawal from most healthy people, 608 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,799 Speaker 1: it's not life threatening, and so that's why I did it. 609 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:49,480 Speaker 1: I haven't gone through heroin withdraw sense or before, certainly 610 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,400 Speaker 1: not in a way where the symptoms had me feeling 611 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,080 Speaker 1: like I described in the book. Then I can take 612 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:59,000 Speaker 1: heroin or leave it. And being that we've had this pandemic, 613 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 1: for example, I've been stuck in the United States, so 614 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,680 Speaker 1: that meant that I wouldn't have access to good, pure heroin, 615 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,480 Speaker 1: So that meant that I couldn't use heroin. And it's 616 00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:11,200 Speaker 1: no big deal. That's just like um, caffeine or some 617 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 1: other substance that I choose to use or choose not 618 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:16,919 Speaker 1: to use. You know. Reading that parts of your book 619 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,440 Speaker 1: about heroin, it reminded me of one of the classic 620 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:23,320 Speaker 1: studies in the field, which was the Harvard professor Norman 621 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:26,239 Speaker 1: Zenberg Right, who many decades ago did a book called 622 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:28,440 Speaker 1: drug Set and Set It Right. And drug set and 623 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 1: setting was the phrase that was coined by Timothy Leary 624 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,800 Speaker 1: and developed by Andrew Wild and then Norman Zenberg, professor 625 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 1: Hart Medical School, tested it. And I think what he 626 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,279 Speaker 1: did was he put advertisements in the local Boston newspapers 627 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 1: looking for people who said they used heroin but did 628 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:44,880 Speaker 1: not feel they were addicted. And hundreds of people came 629 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,200 Speaker 1: out of the woodwork, postal delivery workers and school teachers 630 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:50,239 Speaker 1: and people who are living rough on the streets, and 631 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,759 Speaker 1: people who had significant professions, and even coined the term 632 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:57,880 Speaker 1: I think chippers to describe people who used heroin occasionally 633 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:02,760 Speaker 1: without becoming addicted to it. Now, interestingly, between his writing 634 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,720 Speaker 1: that forty years ago or whatever and you're coming out, 635 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,839 Speaker 1: so little is actually said and written about this. And 636 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 1: I wonder if one reason is that the key research 637 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,160 Speaker 1: funding agencies, so the government, naturally student on drug abuse, 638 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,120 Speaker 1: is just not interested in finding this sort of an 639 00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 1: information out. No, they're not, But you know, we know 640 00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:26,200 Speaker 1: the role that NINER has played Nighter. It's the National 641 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:30,320 Speaker 1: Institute on Drug Abuse. Their primary mission certainly has been 642 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 1: for most of its life to focus on the negative 643 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,480 Speaker 1: effects produced by drugs, so we know they're so to bias. 644 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:42,120 Speaker 1: I was on Night as advisory council. I'd served my term. 645 00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:45,600 Speaker 1: I was a grant reviewer, I was a chair of 646 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:49,239 Speaker 1: a grant review session. I had grants myself, So I'm 647 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 1: not speaking as someone who doesn't know. I mean, I 648 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:55,040 Speaker 1: was a part of the system. But I think it's 649 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:58,120 Speaker 1: it's a lot bigger than Nina. It's uh the people 650 00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:02,040 Speaker 1: who do drug treat and they are so invested in 651 00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:06,000 Speaker 1: this as well. They have come out really strongly against 652 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:09,919 Speaker 1: someone saying that you can use heroin occasionally, even though 653 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:13,479 Speaker 1: we know that heroin and noxycontin are essentially the same drug. 654 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,520 Speaker 1: We know that heroin and morphine are essentially the same drug. 655 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 1: But heroin has this sort of additional uh vilification attached 656 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 1: to it for some reason, because it has this important 657 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:29,359 Speaker 1: role in our society. It helps us to define us, 658 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:34,440 Speaker 1: and then we can uh persecute these people who use 659 00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:40,560 Speaker 1: heroin because they are somehow morally less than we are. Something. 660 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:45,839 Speaker 1: It's playing some important role in our society that is 661 00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:49,440 Speaker 1: far beyond the pharmacology of the drug. Yeah, although what 662 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,200 Speaker 1: you're saying about heroin was probably also true of meth 663 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,239 Speaker 1: and messi anthetamine back in the early two thousand's right 664 00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:58,200 Speaker 1: that nobody could use it without being addicted. I remember 665 00:37:58,200 --> 00:37:59,800 Speaker 1: when I go out and speak to people, and I 666 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:02,720 Speaker 1: let me give you this example. You know, an editor 667 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,000 Speaker 1: of a newspaper tells his reporter to go write a 668 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,720 Speaker 1: report about alcohol in the city, right, And the reporter 669 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:10,880 Speaker 1: goes out and he comes back with all these articles 670 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:16,239 Speaker 1: about twelve step meetings, you know, detox wards, jails, treatment programs, 671 00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:19,080 Speaker 1: and the editor pulls open his drawer, pulls out his 672 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 1: bottle of whiskey. From the drawing goes, what are you 673 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:23,600 Speaker 1: talking about? I understand that's one part of the story, 674 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:25,839 Speaker 1: but what about the people having a beer? What about 675 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:29,400 Speaker 1: the vineyards and the wine? What about you know, story 676 00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 1: not told? Same editor tells, same reporter, go, do me 677 00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:36,239 Speaker 1: a story and meth amphetamine. The reporter goes out, goes 678 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,680 Speaker 1: to the jails, goes to the treatment programs, goes to 679 00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:40,719 Speaker 1: that sort of thing, comes back and the editor goes, 680 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:44,240 Speaker 1: great job, and never stops to say, wait a second, 681 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,520 Speaker 1: aren't there people using meth there who are not this way? 682 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:50,520 Speaker 1: Who's actually attracting new meth users? Because it's not gonna 683 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:52,520 Speaker 1: be the guy who's down and out in teeth falling 684 00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:54,400 Speaker 1: out all this sort of stuff. There has to be 685 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:56,759 Speaker 1: something else going on. But it doesn't even occur to 686 00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:00,400 Speaker 1: people to think that way at all. That's exactly right, 687 00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:01,920 Speaker 1: and that's one of the things I was trying to 688 00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,480 Speaker 1: do with the book. I traveled around the world. Each 689 00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:06,840 Speaker 1: chapter is kind of set in another country, and I 690 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,440 Speaker 1: tried to show people that the vast majority of folks 691 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:13,360 Speaker 1: who are using drugs are middle to upper class people 692 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:17,239 Speaker 1: who are captains of industries, who are famous, people who 693 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:20,840 Speaker 1: are important people in our societies, people who we love 694 00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:24,960 Speaker 1: and respect. They are the vast majority of our drug users. 695 00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:27,759 Speaker 1: And I tried to get people to understand that the 696 00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:32,560 Speaker 1: illicit drug trade is a multibillion dollar industry, and a 697 00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:37,200 Speaker 1: multibillion dollar industry could not be supported by people who 698 00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:40,320 Speaker 1: are poor and down and out. That ship just doesn't 699 00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:44,239 Speaker 1: make any sense. But we still believe that nonsense. I 700 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:48,040 Speaker 1: remember one time asking somebody who's middle class business owner 701 00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:51,560 Speaker 1: or family, etcetera, who had taken method on daily because 702 00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:53,839 Speaker 1: he had once had a heroin addiction, And I said, 703 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:56,160 Speaker 1: why don't you speak out publicly? I mean, you would 704 00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:59,040 Speaker 1: help transform the image of who is a Method on consumer? 705 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:01,200 Speaker 1: He says, he's a Let me tell you something. I 706 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:03,799 Speaker 1: run a business. If one day I come in and 707 00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:06,120 Speaker 1: I'm exhausted because my kid was up sick, or I 708 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:08,000 Speaker 1: was finding my wife and I put my head down. 709 00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,360 Speaker 1: People go, oh, poor Joe. I guess he had a 710 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:12,839 Speaker 1: rough evening when it was going on. If they knew 711 00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:15,239 Speaker 1: I was on method on, they would go, oh, Joe, 712 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:18,120 Speaker 1: he must be nodding out. They'd make that negative assumption. 713 00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:20,600 Speaker 1: He goes, I can't come out, And so in your case, 714 00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:23,879 Speaker 1: I'm wondering. I mean, I remember back in two thousand seven, 715 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:25,799 Speaker 1: I actually joined my board. I said, Carl, you're not 716 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:28,160 Speaker 1: even tenured as yet, and you got, you know, a 717 00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:32,080 Speaker 1: drug war guy chairing your department, and you wrote me saying, Ethan, 718 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:34,080 Speaker 1: as a matter of principle, I got to do the 719 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:36,239 Speaker 1: right thing, even if it costs me a bit. Here 720 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:38,480 Speaker 1: you're coming out, but you do have tenure now and 721 00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:41,239 Speaker 1: your kids are now going to college or graduated. Right 722 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:44,120 Speaker 1: do you think you would have not done this when 723 00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:46,520 Speaker 1: you're an assistant professor, when your kids were younger. I mean, 724 00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:49,000 Speaker 1: there's something about this being a point both a point 725 00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:50,759 Speaker 1: of the broader culture, at a point in your life 726 00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:54,320 Speaker 1: where it felt safe to do so, relatively speaking, not safe, 727 00:40:54,360 --> 00:41:02,200 Speaker 1: but relatively speaking. But yeah, uh know, it's Uh, we 728 00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:04,880 Speaker 1: have to also understand that, you know, I was still 729 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:08,800 Speaker 1: developing and I'm I am still developing and I'm still learning. 730 00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:11,920 Speaker 1: And so it's at a point in my life where 731 00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:15,839 Speaker 1: I am comfortable enough to deal with the bullshit that 732 00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:20,080 Speaker 1: I get because anybody talking about drugs and the subject 733 00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:22,960 Speaker 1: I can deal with because I noticed subject so well, 734 00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:26,360 Speaker 1: Whereas five years ago, ten years ago, I didn't know 735 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:29,160 Speaker 1: the subject as well, and I couldn't deal with the 736 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:33,279 Speaker 1: questions to pushbacks and and I just wasn't knowledgeable enough. 737 00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:37,000 Speaker 1: And so as I gained more knowledge, I gained more confident. 738 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:40,680 Speaker 1: And so it really has to do with my confidence 739 00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:44,520 Speaker 1: and my ability to explain what I do and why 740 00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:48,319 Speaker 1: I do it now, not so much a political calculus. 741 00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:52,839 Speaker 1: That's not what's going on here, because as you know, 742 00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:57,799 Speaker 1: people are trying to dismiss me as crazy whatever. They're 743 00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:01,360 Speaker 1: still trying to do that. And people in my departments, 744 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:04,919 Speaker 1: uh they I'm into departments. There are people who talk 745 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:08,440 Speaker 1: shit about me about this, and they are they are plotting, 746 00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:12,200 Speaker 1: they're doing their things, and so there are consequences, uh 747 00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:16,440 Speaker 1: to this, and there have been consequences in terms of universities. 748 00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:20,680 Speaker 1: Are people who invited me to give talks, have disinvited 749 00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:24,000 Speaker 1: me as a result of me coming out of the closet. 750 00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:26,520 Speaker 1: I have been censored in all kind of ways. So 751 00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:29,279 Speaker 1: there are so many consequences that the public does not 752 00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:33,280 Speaker 1: see and does not know. But I don't really care 753 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:36,440 Speaker 1: about that, because I would be a coward if I 754 00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:40,200 Speaker 1: didn't stand up and say this, given what I know now, 755 00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:44,600 Speaker 1: And so that's why I am speaking out my I 756 00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:46,640 Speaker 1: mean over the moon for the way you're handling this stuff, 757 00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:49,000 Speaker 1: because it is courageous. One of the things you stress 758 00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:50,759 Speaker 1: in the book is that this is a book for 759 00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:53,560 Speaker 1: growing ups, and you point out that a lot of 760 00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:57,240 Speaker 1: the advice and the margins of safety for using drugs 761 00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:00,320 Speaker 1: like matthian fetemine or heroin and are safe, responsible way 762 00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:05,319 Speaker 1: probably don't exist for tens of millions of American adults 763 00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:08,720 Speaker 1: who you know are struggling in one way or another. 764 00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:11,680 Speaker 1: So what do you say about the obligation? You know, 765 00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:14,120 Speaker 1: are there risks in which you're advocating for the tens 766 00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:16,920 Speaker 1: of millions of Americans who don't have it together to 767 00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:19,640 Speaker 1: do it responsibly. You're right, I did say that this 768 00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:21,359 Speaker 1: is a book for grown ups, and I just wanted 769 00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:24,400 Speaker 1: people to understand I had a definition of grown ups, 770 00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:28,279 Speaker 1: people who are responsible, take care of themselves and take 771 00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:30,880 Speaker 1: care of their families and so forth. But it's important 772 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:34,120 Speaker 1: for people to understand too that being a grown up 773 00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:37,240 Speaker 1: it's a dynamics sort of process. It's one in which 774 00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:40,120 Speaker 1: it's not static. I mean, I'm struggling with that every day, 775 00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:43,439 Speaker 1: and many of us do. Then, So, UM, I don't 776 00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:46,239 Speaker 1: want to exclude people when I have my definition of 777 00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:49,040 Speaker 1: grown ups, because that's not the goal here. The goal 778 00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:52,160 Speaker 1: is inclusion. But then do you have this question that 779 00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:54,600 Speaker 1: you raise about, like what about the people who don't 780 00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:58,000 Speaker 1: have their life together to people who don't have the resources. Yeah, 781 00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:01,680 Speaker 1: there are those people. Um, that's like saying, though driving 782 00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:04,719 Speaker 1: a normal bill is a tremendous amount of responsibility. You 783 00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:07,080 Speaker 1: think about being on a two lane highway traffic going 784 00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:11,600 Speaker 1: in opposite direction. Uh, You've got cars coming towards you, 785 00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:14,120 Speaker 1: and all they have to do is just turn into 786 00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:18,279 Speaker 1: your lane and maybe injure you or injured themselves. Um, 787 00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:21,680 Speaker 1: but we have to um, trust them, and we do 788 00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:24,440 Speaker 1: that and they do okay. And so it would be 789 00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:27,960 Speaker 1: kind of arrogant of me to think that I can 790 00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:33,520 Speaker 1: say who should have access to these substances as long 791 00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:37,360 Speaker 1: as they don't violate our norms, that is, in terms 792 00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:40,839 Speaker 1: of preventing other people from enjoying their rights. I don't 793 00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:44,160 Speaker 1: have the right to say that they should be restricted, uh, 794 00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:46,960 Speaker 1: in their access. I think that's part of the problem 795 00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:50,200 Speaker 1: with society. We have these people who think that they 796 00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:52,279 Speaker 1: have the right to tell other people how they can 797 00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:55,920 Speaker 1: live their life, and that's wrong. You know, sometimes we 798 00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:59,880 Speaker 1: define it as um the majority of people of adults 799 00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,600 Speaker 1: who can responsibly use these drugs need to be prohibited 800 00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:07,000 Speaker 1: from doing so in order to protect the minority who 801 00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:10,120 Speaker 1: cannot use them responsibly. But in point of fact, and 802 00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:12,800 Speaker 1: one of the major divides in the legalization debate is 803 00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:15,000 Speaker 1: between those people who think that if many more of 804 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:18,560 Speaker 1: these drugs were legally available, the number of serious addicts 805 00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:22,359 Speaker 1: quote unquote would increase dramatically, whereas other people who say, 806 00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:24,280 Speaker 1: you know what, even if a lot of the drugs 807 00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:26,759 Speaker 1: that are now illegal were legal, the fact of the 808 00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:29,440 Speaker 1: matter is the number of people getting addicted wouldn't go 809 00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:32,000 Speaker 1: up that much because there's already so many other drugs 810 00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:35,080 Speaker 1: available legally and illegally that they could already screwing up on. 811 00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:36,839 Speaker 1: In fact, some of the ones that they're not able 812 00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:39,759 Speaker 1: to get right now might actually be less problematic than 813 00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:42,200 Speaker 1: the ones that they're being prescribed by doctors are usually 814 00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:48,080 Speaker 1: legally over the counter. Absolutely, the notion that the availability 815 00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:52,160 Speaker 1: of these substances will cause society to fall apart. We're 816 00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,680 Speaker 1: living that experiment right now with cannabis. Remember what they 817 00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:59,759 Speaker 1: said about cannabis and how Washington, Colorado, those states will 818 00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:03,600 Speaker 1: fall apart. Not only have they not fallen apart, other 819 00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:07,399 Speaker 1: states are trying to damnus to emulate those states. Uh, 820 00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:11,000 Speaker 1: And so that just doesn't hold any water that sort 821 00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:15,160 Speaker 1: of notion. We think about alcohol, which is one of 822 00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:19,000 Speaker 1: the most potentially dangerous substances to HUGH known to humans. 823 00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:22,839 Speaker 1: But we we do that okay, because we control the 824 00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:27,360 Speaker 1: unit dose, We controlled the purity, the quality, the education. 825 00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:31,200 Speaker 1: That's the part of being in a society. Let me 826 00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:34,600 Speaker 1: ask you how you respond when people ask me what's 827 00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:38,799 Speaker 1: the strongest argument I can think of against legalization, by 828 00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:42,279 Speaker 1: which I mean a legal, responsible legal regulation, And I say, 829 00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:46,440 Speaker 1: my biggest fear is when I look at what the 830 00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:49,839 Speaker 1: food companies have been able to do right The combinations 831 00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:52,200 Speaker 1: of sugar, fat, salt, a play on the brain that 832 00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:55,480 Speaker 1: are marketed effectively. And when you look at the dramatic 833 00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:59,080 Speaker 1: rise right in obesity and obesity related diseases in the 834 00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:01,600 Speaker 1: US and really through much of the world, right where 835 00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:04,319 Speaker 1: that where the humult of health consequences exceed those of 836 00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:07,800 Speaker 1: illicit drugs are illicit drugs, right. And I worry about 837 00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:12,839 Speaker 1: the power and the ability of major league, multinational companies 838 00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:16,919 Speaker 1: to devise interesting concoctions of all these drugs that are 839 00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:20,239 Speaker 1: adept at getting people to be dependent, even if they 840 00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:22,840 Speaker 1: can control it up to a point, and that ultimately 841 00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:25,719 Speaker 1: land up doing even more harm. That's my biggest fear 842 00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:28,279 Speaker 1: than in the capitalist world we live in. That may 843 00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:30,920 Speaker 1: be hard to prevent. You no, I agree, but what 844 00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:34,960 Speaker 1: you're describing is a problem with capitalism, not a pharmacological problem. 845 00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:38,480 Speaker 1: And so that's partly what happens when we have these 846 00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:42,880 Speaker 1: discussions about legalization, all of these issues get conflated, and um, 847 00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:46,520 Speaker 1: we we have some problems with our capitalism. I mean, 848 00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:49,640 Speaker 1: we can think about the billionaires that we have in 849 00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:52,440 Speaker 1: this country that pay no taxes, but that's not a 850 00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:56,080 Speaker 1: drug problem. That's a capitalism problem. That's like saying that, well, 851 00:47:56,160 --> 00:48:00,200 Speaker 1: ship we have the bad food because these people you 852 00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:04,560 Speaker 1: have these sophisticated ways of marketing these foods. It's like, 853 00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:08,160 Speaker 1: we're not gonna ban food. We need to check our capitalism. 854 00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:10,759 Speaker 1: We need to check the regulations that we have on 855 00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:13,560 Speaker 1: these companies. Uh. And we're trying to do that a 856 00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:16,239 Speaker 1: little bit with we do and on some of these 857 00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:20,320 Speaker 1: other drug companies. But that's capitalism, that's not the drug. 858 00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:23,480 Speaker 1: You know, in the earlier years of my studying drugs, 859 00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:28,000 Speaker 1: to the formative experiences, one was going to Amsterdam in 860 00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:31,280 Speaker 1: eighty nine and not just seeing the clannabis coffee shops 861 00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:34,400 Speaker 1: but also seeing their harm aduction stuff in action. And 862 00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:37,000 Speaker 1: the other one was going to Switzerland and ninety two 863 00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:38,920 Speaker 1: I happen to be there the day that this federal 864 00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:42,239 Speaker 1: government green lighted doing the heroin maintenance programs for people 865 00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:44,719 Speaker 1: who had not succeeded in method on programs, and then 866 00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:46,759 Speaker 1: going back a number of times to actually see these 867 00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:50,040 Speaker 1: programs in action. So you write about that in your book. 868 00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:53,200 Speaker 1: You write about the successful heroin maintenance programs there for 869 00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:56,040 Speaker 1: people which don't exist in the US. And now you 870 00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:58,960 Speaker 1: tell me tomorrow you're heading off to Switzerland again, so 871 00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:01,440 Speaker 1: you know, are we gonna see her coming back to 872 00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:03,200 Speaker 1: the U. S here you're giving up on this place here, 873 00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:05,960 Speaker 1: gonna gonna hanging Europe for a long time. I gotta 874 00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:08,960 Speaker 1: tell you, man, Like I remember in the board meetings 875 00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:13,080 Speaker 1: or I don't know, at some point, um in the 876 00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:16,120 Speaker 1: early two thousand's, I don't know when you you were 877 00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:20,279 Speaker 1: pretty enthusiastic about the results that they were achieving in 878 00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:24,040 Speaker 1: Switzerland with the heroin maintenance for people who were struggling 879 00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:27,760 Speaker 1: with heroin addiction. That you you helped me to understand 880 00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:31,720 Speaker 1: that early on. And um, and I think I remember 881 00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:35,399 Speaker 1: telling you many years later, like damn, you were right. 882 00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:39,879 Speaker 1: And I was actually embarrassed because here I am a scientists, 883 00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:43,640 Speaker 1: a pH d in this area, and I hadn't read 884 00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:49,319 Speaker 1: the studies that showed what you were so enthusiastically telling us, 885 00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:53,680 Speaker 1: and we were dismissing you, um and um. So it 886 00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:56,200 Speaker 1: was an embarrassing moment for me. And I don't ever 887 00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:59,600 Speaker 1: want to be embarrassed like that again. So you're right. 888 00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:02,399 Speaker 1: Who are right then? And you're right now about this 889 00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:07,320 Speaker 1: and so much so that I have decided to spend 890 00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:09,520 Speaker 1: half of my time in the US and half of 891 00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:13,080 Speaker 1: my time in Switzerland, not because I think the Swiss 892 00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:17,240 Speaker 1: are are somehow better than most people on the planet. 893 00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:20,959 Speaker 1: Not that's not It's just that they simply treat their 894 00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:25,120 Speaker 1: citizens better than we treat our citizens here. And I 895 00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:29,400 Speaker 1: have a scientific community that I can interact with, and 896 00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:33,400 Speaker 1: they are also close to Paris, and they and I 897 00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:36,880 Speaker 1: can get to Spain and other places in the European 898 00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:40,640 Speaker 1: Union that have better drug policies, and they are more 899 00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:44,600 Speaker 1: civilized about this issue, and so um staying in the 900 00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:49,120 Speaker 1: US for extended periods of time, it just makes me 901 00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:52,000 Speaker 1: a more angry person. And I don't want to be 902 00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:56,120 Speaker 1: that way. I like feeling like, uh, I have taken 903 00:50:56,239 --> 00:50:58,279 Speaker 1: M D M A. I like feeling like I have 904 00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:02,799 Speaker 1: taken six A p B because I'm more generous, I'm 905 00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:07,799 Speaker 1: more forgiving, I'm more magnanimous, and those are qualities that 906 00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:11,200 Speaker 1: we should encourage other people to be. Well. Carl Le, 907 00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:13,920 Speaker 1: let me just say, I so much value what you've 908 00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:16,560 Speaker 1: been doing with your life, with your books, with your teaching. 909 00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:19,279 Speaker 1: I value our friendship. I'm gonna miss you a bit 910 00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:21,160 Speaker 1: when we're out in Switzerland, but I do you know. 911 00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:23,279 Speaker 1: I love your man and wish you all the best 912 00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:25,719 Speaker 1: in these next steps. I love you too, man, and 913 00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:28,319 Speaker 1: you know. I learned from you a lot. But one 914 00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:32,600 Speaker 1: of the most important things is that you always say, 915 00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:36,439 Speaker 1: oh my bad, Miacopa, I sucked up, and you never 916 00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:39,440 Speaker 1: have any qualms with doing that. And we all do 917 00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:41,719 Speaker 1: we I mean, we all screw up, but we don't 918 00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:44,759 Speaker 1: take responsibility for screwing up. But you always have done that, 919 00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:47,719 Speaker 1: and that's one of the sort of important lessons that 920 00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:50,799 Speaker 1: I have taken from you. Thanks a lot. Okay, Carl, 921 00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:53,000 Speaker 1: you take care and have a good trip. Okay, Great 922 00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:56,840 Speaker 1: to see you, bro. Psychoactive is a production of I 923 00:51:56,920 --> 00:52:01,120 Speaker 1: Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. It's hosted by me Ethan Naedelman. 924 00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:05,240 Speaker 1: It's produced by Katcha Kumkova and Ben Cabrick. The executive 925 00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:09,440 Speaker 1: producers are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus and Darren 926 00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:13,600 Speaker 1: Aronovski for Protozoa Pictures, Alex Williams and Matt Frederick for 927 00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:17,400 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio and me Ethan Nadelman. Our music is 928 00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:20,680 Speaker 1: by Ari Belusian and a special thanks to a Vivit Brio, 929 00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:25,239 Speaker 1: sph Bianca Grimshaw and Robert Beatty. If you'd like to 930 00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:28,560 Speaker 1: share your own stories, comments, or ideas, please leave us 931 00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:33,600 Speaker 1: a message at eight three three seven seven nine sixty. 932 00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:39,920 Speaker 1: That's one eight three three psycho zero. You can also 933 00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:43,680 Speaker 1: email us as Psychoactive at protozoa dot com or find 934 00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:46,520 Speaker 1: me on Twitter at Ethan Nadelman. And if you couldn't 935 00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:49,120 Speaker 1: keep track of all this, find the information in the 936 00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:54,520 Speaker 1: show notes. Tune in next time when I talk with 937 00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:58,320 Speaker 1: Pat Denning, a longtime friend who's working at the cutting 938 00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:01,920 Speaker 1: edge of harm reduction drug Tree. When we had prohibition 939 00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:05,279 Speaker 1: in this country, the law of the land said alcohol 940 00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:09,320 Speaker 1: is so dangerous, it's so poisonous, that no one should 941 00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:13,000 Speaker 1: ever be allowed to consume it, And thirteen years later 942 00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:16,040 Speaker 1: we made it legal again. To make that make any 943 00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:19,640 Speaker 1: sense at all, we had to adopt this idea that 944 00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:23,520 Speaker 1: there's this disease called alcoholism and some people have it 945 00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:28,560 Speaker 1: and some people don't. That's an insane way of reintroducing 946 00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:31,120 Speaker 1: a drug into society is by saying, oh, well, ten 947 00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:33,680 Speaker 1: percent of you can't drink at all, and the rest 948 00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:35,400 Speaker 1: of you can drink as much as you want to. 949 00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:40,719 Speaker 1: It's a political ideology, it's not settled science. Subscribe to 950 00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:42,520 Speaker 1: Psychoactive now see it, don't miss it.