1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece. 2 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 2: Are there more serial killers walking amongst us? Or are 3 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 2: we just learning about them more often from new victims 4 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 2: in the BTK prosecution. In the last days, shares have 5 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 2: been searching a rural area in Butler County in Kansas 6 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:44,600 Speaker 2: in connection to BTK. Are they onto even more bodies 7 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:50,240 Speaker 2: victims of buying torture kill? Dennis Wraiter the dogcatcher? Then, 8 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 2: is a Border patrol agent actually a serial killer? And 9 00:00:56,640 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 2: to Oregon where I feel very confident a serial killer 10 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 2: is stalking. 11 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 3: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. 12 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 2: Thank you for being with us here on crime stories 13 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 2: and serious XM one eleven. Speaking of Dennis Rader, it 14 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 2: was his idea for the media to call him BTK 15 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 2: buying torture kill, so I call him the Dogcatcher. In 16 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 2: the last days, a new search listened. 17 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 4: During an investigation, investigators do not like to share information 18 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:30,479 Speaker 4: with the media because they don't want anything to jeopardize 19 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 4: the investigation. However, unless you're in the media or law enforcement, 20 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 4: you might not know what can be released to the public. 21 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:40,680 Speaker 4: So homeowners of property in Butler County, Kansas, say sheriff's 22 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:43,679 Speaker 4: deputies and investigators were on their property for seven hours 23 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 4: looking for evidence related to a missing person's case. They 24 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 4: couldn't remember the name of the person they were looking for, 25 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 4: but they did remember the person was sixteen. Cynthia don 26 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 4: Kenny was sixteen when she vanished. The property owners added 27 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 4: that the Osh County Sheriff's Office came to the property 28 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 4: in March. At that time, search dogs were brought out, 29 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 4: but the property owners saying nothing was found. Alena Burrows 30 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 4: with CSI Crime Scene Confidential told KSNTV, quote, we have 31 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:11,359 Speaker 4: received information that Dennis Rader has been on this property 32 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 4: at some point in time. The National BTK Task Force 33 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:16,520 Speaker 4: is here to follow up on those leads. 34 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:20,799 Speaker 2: Well, I'm telling you right now, if BTK Dennish Raider 35 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 2: the Dogcatcher has been strolling around rural Butler County, I 36 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 2: guarantee you it's connected to a case. With me an 37 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 2: all star panel to make sense of what we know 38 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 2: right now. But first to a member along with me 39 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 2: on the BTK Special Task for Cheryl McCollum, forensic expert, founder, 40 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:45,919 Speaker 2: Director Cold Case Research Institute, and host of a new 41 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 2: hit series Zone Seven. Cheryl, I know there's a lot 42 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 2: that you and I cannot discuss being on the task force, 43 00:02:55,320 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 2: but the homeowners have now come forward and stated the 44 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 2: Osage County and for law enforcement was on their property 45 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 2: looking for evidence as it relates to sixteen. 46 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 3: Year old Cynthia don Kenney. What do you make of it? 47 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:15,360 Speaker 5: You and I can certainly confirm that. I mean, it 48 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 5: was on TV. And what's important is this information that 49 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 5: came forward from the landowner, the actual homeowner. It was 50 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 5: credible enough that scher Dierden felt like we need to 51 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:31,360 Speaker 5: get out there and do our due diligence to find 52 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 5: out can we connect him with anything from that property, 53 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 5: And that's what we did. 54 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 2: I'll tell you one thing to doctor Peter Vronsky joining 55 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 2: us out of Toronto. You're a forensic historian, author of 56 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 2: multiple best selling books on serial killers, including American serial Killers, 57 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 2: The Epidemic Years and Sons of Cain, Doctor Vronsky, if 58 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 2: Dennis Raider I spotted walking around your rural property, you 59 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 2: better call in the scent dogs FRONTO agree, disagree? 60 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 6: Oh? 61 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 7: I agree. It's absolutely possible and plausible. This is what 62 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 7: serial killers often do, and I'm sure there could be 63 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 7: plausibly lots of cases still out there that he kind 64 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:25,919 Speaker 7: of has kept to himself as little tokens of control. 65 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 7: He maybe let go of a few, but there's some 66 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:32,719 Speaker 7: he could be nurturing. And in fact, I'm in the 67 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:35,600 Speaker 7: middle of something like this with a serial killer in 68 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 7: Long Island with cases going back to nineteen sixty eight 69 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 7: to nineteen seventy three, which we closed there last December. 70 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:48,479 Speaker 7: So this is not unusual what is happening, and. 71 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:52,720 Speaker 2: It's not unusual at all. Now, why would we connect 72 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:56,359 Speaker 2: BTK with sixteen year old Cynthia don Kenney. 73 00:04:57,080 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 3: Listen? 74 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 4: The nineteen seventy six unsolved disappearance sixteen year old Cynthia 75 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:03,600 Speaker 4: don Kenny, who was last seen working out a laundromat 76 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:06,600 Speaker 4: and o Saj, Oklahoma, is back in the news. Dennis 77 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 4: Raider BTK confirmed that he was questioned by Oklahoma investigators 78 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 4: about the cold case because of the visits he made 79 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 4: to the area at the time of Kenny's disappearance. Raider, 80 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 4: who confessed in detail to other murders, denies any involvement 81 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 4: in this case. However, Osage County Sheriff Eddie Verdon has 82 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 4: read Raider's journals from cover to cover and believes the 83 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:29,599 Speaker 4: killer left clues. One of Rader's journal entries around the 84 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:33,360 Speaker 4: time of Kenney's disappearance was laundromats were a good place 85 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 4: to watch victims and dream. It was Sheriff Virden's Osage 86 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:39,839 Speaker 4: County Sheriff's office that went out to the site of 87 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 4: the killer's former home and found pantyhose tied in a knot, 88 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 4: something raider would have used to strangle a victim. 89 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:50,280 Speaker 3: It is just too much of a coincidence that he's 90 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 3: talking about. 91 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 2: Finding a murder victim, a female murder victim at a laundrymat, 92 00:05:56,640 --> 00:06:00,719 Speaker 2: and then Cynthia Kenny or a victim goes missing or 93 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:04,919 Speaker 2: had been connected to a laundromat. Joining me right now 94 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:09,599 Speaker 2: is Douglas McGregor. You know him well, geographic profiler who 95 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 2: specializes in serial killing and violent crime. You can find 96 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 2: him at the geo Profiler. Douglas McGregor, Thank you for 97 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 2: being with us. How do you think the connection holds 98 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 2: up in a court of law between the Butler County 99 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 2: this rural area search in Kansas to the Oklahoma serial 100 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:33,039 Speaker 2: killing activity. 101 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:36,039 Speaker 8: The investigators would have to find would have to do 102 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 8: a linkage analysis and see you. 103 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 3: Slow down, slow down, a linkage analysis. 104 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 8: What yeah, so they'd have to see if there's enough 105 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 8: common factors between the crimes there and the crimes that 106 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 8: he committed in the past, and obviously the laundromat is 107 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 8: is one promising lead. Dennis Raider Traditionally, his crimes that 108 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:00,840 Speaker 8: he's been convicted for, he's a he's a home based 109 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:04,719 Speaker 8: offender or a marauder, so he attacks from his home 110 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 8: and his activity space is surrounded is around his home area, 111 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 8: his residence. But these other crimes, they're outside of that area, 112 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 8: so they would have to find other than geography, they 113 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 8: would have to find other common linkages to link him 114 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 8: to those crimes. 115 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 3: Well, what about our cut five? 116 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 2: Listen to this members of the panel BTK talking about 117 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 2: might be something left in some old barn. 118 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 4: As Dennis Raider, the self proclaimed BTK serial killer, is 119 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 4: now the prime suspect in the Cynthia Kinney case, some 120 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 4: old information has become new again, such as the sheriff's 121 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 4: office received an anonymous call shortly after Kinney's disappearance. The 122 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 4: male caller said that she was located in an old barn. 123 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 4: There is no evidence that that lead was ever followed up, 124 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 4: but authorities are now looking at detailed drawings made by 125 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 4: Raider showing young girls tied and bound in barns. There 126 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 4: is also a conversation heard on one of Rader's prison 127 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 4: phone calls this past August. On the call he has 128 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 4: heard to say, quote, there might still be something in 129 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 4: some old barn too. 130 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 2: Frank fell Zone joining us out of California. Former San 131 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 2: Francisco Homicide Inspector, author of San Francisco Homicide Inspector five 132 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 2: Dash Henry Dash seven My inside story of the knight Stalker, 133 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 2: City Hall murders and zebra killings, Chinatown, game wars and 134 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 2: a city under siege. 135 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 3: Wow, you know your stuff? Fell Zone. 136 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 2: Question to you, Frank, when you are hearing this conversation 137 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:54,319 Speaker 2: that Dennis Raider, the dog catching killer, is having. What 138 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 2: people still don't know their calls are being recorded behind bars. 139 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 6: Well, everything boils down to what your jurisdiction and the 140 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 6: prosecution needs to make a conviction. I always found that 141 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 6: your crime scene tells you a story, and that story 142 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 6: gets you going in the right direction, and then it's 143 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 6: just following the leads and each lead has to be 144 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 6: developed to its fullest. The night Stalker case in the 145 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 6: Bay Area that terrified the state of California. That case 146 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 6: was broke on a bracelet that was taken during one 147 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 6: of the Hot Proud burglaries in the residence of a doctor. 148 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 6: So you never know what little link is going to 149 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:42,719 Speaker 6: break your case. But the serial murderers, the killers that 150 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:45,839 Speaker 6: stalk people, they're out there and they're going to be 151 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 6: out there forever. And it seems like with the media 152 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:53,680 Speaker 6: glorifying these individuals, there's going to be no end to 153 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 6: what's happening in our country. 154 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 2: I got an answer film. Serial killers are going to 155 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 2: keep on killing, whether they're found out or not found out, 156 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 2: whether the publicized or not publicized. But you do speak 157 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 2: the truth, specifically as it relates to Dennis Raider BTK, 158 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:11,560 Speaker 2: because he loves what he believes to be the adulation 159 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 2: of the media. What it really is. 160 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 3: Is discussed. 161 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Grace. 162 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 3: Cheryl McCollum. 163 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 2: The fact that he says behind bars, I know you 164 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 2: can talk about this because it's out there. This is 165 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:40,559 Speaker 2: not part of what we're learning on the task Force. 166 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 2: He says in a phone call on a prison call, 167 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 2: and this is just a couple of months ago. He 168 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 2: says there might still be something in some old barn. 169 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:54,080 Speaker 5: Owned the property in rural Butler County. There were several barns, 170 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:57,560 Speaker 5: so again we had to do our due diligence in 171 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 5: search those and see if there was any connection that 172 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 5: we could make to. 173 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 2: Doctor Kendall Crowns joining me now medical examiner joining us 174 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 2: out of Fort Worth Lecturer University, Texas and TCU Medical School. 175 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:16,079 Speaker 2: Doctor Kendall Crowns, while you're from the same town as BTK, 176 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 2: I hope you don't know each other. But that said, 177 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 2: if a body had been placed or a victim had 178 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:28,680 Speaker 2: been placed in a barn so long ago, searching now, 179 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 2: it's highly unlikely that there would be any DNA evidence 180 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 2: or any evidence left of the victim unless something had 181 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 2: been buried, and he's known for burying trophies. But address 182 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 2: that if you could, doctor Crowns. 183 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 9: So yes, BPK and I are from the same hometown. 184 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 9: He was actually one of my dad's students at the university, 185 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:54,959 Speaker 9: which Costa University. But if he left the body above ground, 186 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:59,319 Speaker 9: now it's been out for decades, it would be desiccated 187 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 9: or dried up up and there really wouldn't be anything 188 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 9: that you could probably get from it for DNA. Now, 189 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 9: if it was buried, and it was buried deep, it 190 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 9: could have delayed the decomposition process, so there could be 191 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 9: still a tissue remaining muscle, dried muscle, or even bone 192 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 9: marrow that could be extracted from the bones to do 193 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 9: DNA testing from. 194 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:28,560 Speaker 2: Even though sometimes as you well know, Cheryl McCollum, and 195 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 2: I'll throw this to Del Carson, high profile lawyer adjoining 196 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:38,680 Speaker 2: side the Jacksonville jurisdiction but also FORMERPI agent and author 197 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 2: of Arrest Proof Yourself. You can find them at del 198 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 2: carsonlaw dot com. Deal thinking back to your days, is 199 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 2: a fed as an agent, Even when you know you're 200 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:49,720 Speaker 2: not going to be able to find something, you still 201 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 2: have to look well. 202 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 7: Absolutely, and the advantage to a barn is that it's 203 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 7: kept out of the weather. The result is if there 204 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 7: is any processable material left, it's liable to be in 205 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 7: more or less of Christine State compared to being out 206 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:09,959 Speaker 7: in the woods somewhere where it would be affected by 207 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 7: rain and so normal. 208 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 2: And there's the possibility, Cheryl McCollum, we know he high 209 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:19,200 Speaker 2: squirrels things away, he buries them. 210 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 3: Would do you bury something out in one of these barns? 211 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 5: I don't know, absolutely, I mean he could have buried 212 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 5: a souvenir that he took from a scene. He talks 213 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 5: about that. We know that from serial killers throughout history, 214 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 5: they will take items and they want to secure them 215 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 5: for their own pleasure. So there's no doubt that something 216 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:41,959 Speaker 5: that needs to be explored at every possible scene. 217 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:47,599 Speaker 2: And there's the issue of pictures tied to another crime scene. 218 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 3: Take a listen our cuts seven in this. 219 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 4: Raider is also considered the prime suspect in the murder 220 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 4: of Shawna Beth Garber. The twenty two year old Garber 221 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 4: was found rape strangled and hogtied in Missouri on December 222 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 4: tecond nineteen ninety, but she was not identified until twenty 223 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 4: twenty one. Until then, she was known as Grace Doe. 224 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 4: When her body was identified, investigators found out that Shauna 225 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:13,320 Speaker 4: Garber went missing from Topeka, Kansas, on November third, nineteen ninety. 226 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 4: Dennis Raider was named a prime suspect in her murder 227 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 4: when photos were found in one of his journals that 228 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 4: directly tie him to the crime scene. 229 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 2: To Cheryl McCollum, who is on the BTK Task Force 230 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 2: along with me, this is also information that has not 231 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 2: been kept confidential the photos found in his journal, Why 232 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 2: did those photos tie him to Shauna Garber? 233 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 5: The photographs again are going to be something that depicts 234 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 5: the location, and he puts himself there, So it's not 235 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 5: something that can be ignored. With the Garber case, he's 236 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 5: one of a few persons of interest that again they've 237 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 5: got to rule him in or rule him out. Can 238 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 5: they put him there on the dates that she went missing? 239 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 5: Is there anything that he has said in the past 240 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 5: that puts him with her or speaks to her? And 241 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 5: keep in mind a lot of these folks study one another. 242 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 5: Even recently with the Long Island serial killer, Dennis Raider 243 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 5: has come out and made statements about that situation. So 244 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 5: it's something he could have been writing about because he 245 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 5: was knowledgeable of it. I don't know that Garber is 246 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 5: one of his victims. I'm not completely bought in on that, 247 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 5: but again you've got to look at it and really 248 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 5: ment or really. 249 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 2: Out well, I'm telling you, and I think that doctor 250 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 2: Joni Johnson will agree. Forensic psychologist Pi, author of Serial 251 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 2: Killers one hundred and one, questions true crime fans ask 252 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 2: there are going to be other BTK victims. 253 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 3: I have no question about that. Dr Johnson. 254 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 7: I I agree with you, Nancy. 255 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 10: I would be absolutely stinned to think that he has 256 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 10: only killed people he's confessed to, because this issue of 257 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:58,880 Speaker 10: power and controlling, being able to play games with people, 258 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 10: and it's so complicated when we talk about sexually motivated 259 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 10: derial killer. So I completely agree with you. Whether the 260 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 10: task forces investigating are included or not, there's no question 261 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 10: he has other victims out there that he has not 262 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 10: confessed to. 263 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 2: And now we turn our attention to what many believe 264 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 2: is another serial killer. Take listen now are cut ten 265 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 2: from crimeonline dot Com. 266 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 4: The border city of Laredo, Texas, appeared to have a 267 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 4: possible serial killer on the loose. In a period of 268 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 4: twelve days, two sex workers have been picked up from 269 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 4: an area known to locals as the prostitution blocks on 270 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 4: San Bernardo Avenue in Laredo, taken out her remote areas 271 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 4: northwest of the city, and shaw in the head When 272 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 4: a special law enforcement team was put together to hunt 273 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 4: down a possible serial killer kidnapping and murdering sex workers, 274 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 4: David Ortiz, the intelligence supervisor for the Border Patrol, was 275 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 4: asked to join the team. 276 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 3: Wow. 277 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 2: David Ortiz asked to join the team. We believe the 278 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 2: first victim may have been Melissa Ramirez. 279 00:16:59,440 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 3: Take a listen. 280 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 4: On September fourth, when Melissa Ramirez didn't come home, her mother, 281 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 4: Christina Benevitez, went looking for her daughter on San Bernardo. 282 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,119 Speaker 4: She came across forty two year old Claudine Ann Luerra, 283 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:12,880 Speaker 4: one of Melissa Ramire's friends, on the street, and asked 284 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 4: her if she had seen Melissa. Lua hadn't. Ten days later, 285 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 4: on September thirteenth, friends would be looking for Claudine and 286 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:23,199 Speaker 4: Luerra when she didn't come home. Twenty nine year old 287 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 4: Melissa Ramerez was on San Bernardo Boulevard on the prostitution 288 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 4: blocks when she sees a familiar white truck pull over 289 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 4: to talk. She knows the driver is David, a military man, tall, handsome. 290 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 4: They've done this before, so the mother of two gets 291 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 4: in the truck. As they drive down a rural country 292 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:42,159 Speaker 4: road about two miles outside the city, David stops the 293 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:45,199 Speaker 4: car from Melissa to get out and relieve herself. Without warning, 294 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:48,919 Speaker 4: David shoots her in the head multiple times. Her body 295 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:50,400 Speaker 4: is not discovered until the next day. 296 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 2: Doctor Peter Ronsky joining us out of Toronto, Doctor Ronsky, 297 00:17:56,640 --> 00:18:00,959 Speaker 2: what do you make of them? The modus operanda in 298 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 2: this particular case. 299 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 7: This is a very interesting case, and it's almost like 300 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 7: a new species of serial killers who are emerging in 301 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:13,680 Speaker 7: the prime of their career, like that colonel in Canada, 302 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:17,640 Speaker 7: Colonel Russell Williams, who suddenly in his forties is becoming 303 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 7: transforming almost into a serial killer. There's nothing in his 304 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:27,919 Speaker 7: background that would suggest that he is a budding serial killer, 305 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 7: and yet he emerges with, you know, this kind of 306 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:38,120 Speaker 7: excellent record and past. There is some signs of trauma, 307 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:43,359 Speaker 7: military issues, maybe PTSD, but none of these things really 308 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 7: are typical of a serial killer other than his kind 309 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 7: of desire. Very much like Gary Ridgeway, the Green River killer, 310 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 7: to you know Ridge society of a stain in the community, 311 00:18:57,720 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 7: sex workers. 312 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:04,200 Speaker 2: Wow at the same time employing sex workers. So we 313 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:07,719 Speaker 2: know a little bit about victim one, but what about 314 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 2: victim two. Claudine Anne Listen. 315 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:13,400 Speaker 4: At forty two years old. Claudine and Luera has experience 316 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 4: on the street. She's the mother of five and is 317 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 4: very careful with who she deals with on San Bernardo Boulevard. 318 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 4: Like all the girls on the prostitution blocks, the murder 319 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 4: of her friend Melissa Ramirez. The top of mind. Lua 320 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 4: has heard the rumors. So when a guy she knows 321 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,679 Speaker 4: pulls over to pick her up, she gets in. She 322 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 4: knows David, the military guy in the white truck. As 323 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 4: they drive down the road, Luera confronts David about the 324 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:37,919 Speaker 4: disappearance of her friend. She was getting out of the 325 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 4: truck when he shoots her in the head. Luia was 326 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 4: found alive, but died hours later in the hospital. 327 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 2: Them the method of operation here rings of an echo, 328 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 2: Cheryl McCollum. Sex workers being lured away from their homes 329 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 2: or where they hang out. Here it was on the 330 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 2: prostitution blocks and taken out in a vehicle, having sex 331 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 2: with the killer, and then they shoot them in the head. 332 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:13,399 Speaker 2: This is like a recurring chorus with serial killers, you know. 333 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 5: Gary Ridgeway said it. He said that he wants to 334 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 5: deal with sex workers because they're not going to be 335 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:26,920 Speaker 5: reported right away, and oftentimes they're not reported missing at all, 336 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:30,119 Speaker 5: so it gives the killer time not just to get away, 337 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 5: but to maybe even go back and cover up and 338 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 5: cover up some more. 339 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 2: I'm thinking about something doctor Peter Vronsky just said about 340 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 2: a let's just say late bloomer serial killer in Canada, 341 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 2: Del Carson with me, high profile defense lawyer and former 342 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:51,639 Speaker 2: fed with the FBI, Dell. The perps may not exhibit 343 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 2: serial killer behavior. 344 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 3: Like ken know. 345 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 2: We say, oh, it's textbook. They tortured animals when they 346 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 2: were little. They tore the off of flies, They did this, 347 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 2: They did that. They have no empathy or sympathy for 348 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 2: others feelings. 349 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:08,160 Speaker 3: We knew it since he was a kid. 350 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 2: There are killers that do not exhibit symptoms, and they 351 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 2: are as I just said, for lack of a better term, 352 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 2: late bloomers. 353 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 7: Well, you know Wayne Williams, the Atlanta serial killer, he. 354 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:21,880 Speaker 3: Was a great from day one. 355 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:26,439 Speaker 7: He was like a garter snake with cobra venom. And 356 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 7: I can just tell you that you can play with 357 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 7: a snak like that a lot, and then if you 358 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:35,439 Speaker 7: fall into their ritual, their pattern of behavior, then all 359 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:37,440 Speaker 7: of a sudden you're in trouble. And those kids got 360 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 7: in the car because they fell into the pattern of 361 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:44,360 Speaker 7: behavior that he exhibited. And that's two of all these 362 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:47,479 Speaker 7: serial killers. You know, murders are not that unusual in 363 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 7: our world. What is unusual is the motivation in each 364 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 7: of these serial killers deviates from any kind of normal 365 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 7: murder where there's money, sex, you know, all of those 366 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 7: kinds of reasons for killing someone else. They don't necessarily 367 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 7: exist in the serial killers world, and that's what makes 368 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 7: them so dangerous. They look harmless, gentlely, and certainly Wayne 369 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 7: Williams did. He looked arm man. 370 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 2: He really did his parents and babied him and coddled 371 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 2: him and his whole life since birth, and then out 372 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 2: of the blue we find out he's a serial killer, 373 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 2: and I mean a massive serial killer. Doctor Joni Johnson, 374 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 2: I'm just thinking about something Dell Carson just said. As 375 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 2: far as motive for serial killers, I always think of 376 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:40,239 Speaker 2: them as being like sharks. This is shark mean to 377 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 2: eat everything in its path, including iniate objects. No, it's 378 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 2: an instinct. I don't know that serial killers really have 379 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:49,400 Speaker 2: a motivation. 380 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 10: Well, I think it's complicated. I mean, obviously serial killers 381 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,879 Speaker 10: we think of actually motivated serial killers oftentimes because those 382 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 10: are the ones that get most of the media attention. 383 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,159 Speaker 10: But I think there are suri killers too, you know, 384 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:05,119 Speaker 10: espouse certain motives and whether these are motives or rationalizations. 385 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:09,159 Speaker 10: I think, as for example, in this Ortez case, he 386 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 10: has used prostitute, as you pointed out, and then yet 387 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 10: he says part of his motive is rinting the streets 388 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 10: of this quote. 389 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:19,440 Speaker 3: Film after he has sex with them, exactly. 390 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:21,879 Speaker 10: I mean, it makes no sense whatsoever, so that I 391 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:24,160 Speaker 10: think boils out of your question is is this really 392 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 10: a motive or is this an excuse of rationalization? 393 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:28,440 Speaker 3: And not that I care about in the motive. 394 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 7: This is the Carson. I just tell you. You know, 395 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,159 Speaker 7: what we've got to begin to do is read the 396 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 7: actions and not the words of these perfect readers. What 397 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:42,360 Speaker 7: they say often has no relevance whatsoever to what's driving 398 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:46,120 Speaker 7: them and what's causing them to behave and are socially 399 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 7: like this. 400 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,199 Speaker 2: You're right, Dell Carson. Of course, stay doesn't have to 401 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 2: prove motive. It's nice to be able to give it 402 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 2: to a jury because they wonder why, but you don't 403 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:58,120 Speaker 2: have to prove that. That's not an element that must 404 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 2: be proven in a court of law. Speaking of the 405 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,400 Speaker 2: last two victims we finished off with Claudine and Luerra, 406 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 2: Well that's not the end of it. 407 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:06,639 Speaker 3: Listen. 408 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 4: On the night of September fourteenth, Ericapania was picked up 409 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 4: by a man she didn't know in a white truck. 410 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,119 Speaker 4: As a working girl, Paya became concerned with some of 411 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,680 Speaker 4: the things the man was saying. Pena says the man 412 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,639 Speaker 4: talked about Melissa Ramirez, sex worker who was murdered and 413 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,360 Speaker 4: her body found on the outskirts of Laredo the previous week. 414 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 4: The man told Penia he was the next to last 415 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 4: person to have sex with Ramirez, and he told her 416 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,399 Speaker 4: he was worried investigators would find his DNA on the body. 417 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 4: At thirty one, Erica Pana was old enough to believe 418 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,720 Speaker 4: he wasn't kidding and might actually be the person murdering 419 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,639 Speaker 4: prostitutes in the area. When they stop at a gas station, 420 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,880 Speaker 4: Paya sees a state trooper pumping gas. As the man 421 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 4: points a gun at her, eric Opania makes a run 422 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 4: for her life. She makes it to the trooper in time, 423 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:49,920 Speaker 4: but the man in the white truck flees. 424 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:52,359 Speaker 2: Let's take a listen to her description of that man 425 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 2: in our cut sixteen. 426 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:56,639 Speaker 4: With Ericapana's description of the man, the make and model 427 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 4: of the truck, authorities were able to identify Border Patrol 428 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,879 Speaker 4: Agent one David Ortiz as their suspect. As authorities mobilized 429 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 4: to look for one David Ortiz. They couldn't find him 430 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 4: after paying his escape for Martes. Officers only knew of 431 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 4: victims Melissa Ramirez and Claudine Duerra, but while they were 432 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,439 Speaker 4: chasing after him, they heard about a third body that 433 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 4: had been found, later identified as thirty five year old 434 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 4: Gizelda Elisa Hernandez kN too. Believing Ortiz will return to 435 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 4: the home he shares with his wife and children, authorities 436 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 4: head to his home, hoping to avoid an armed confrontation. 437 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:29,639 Speaker 2: You know what's interesting, and I'm going to go back 438 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:33,160 Speaker 2: to another serial killer, Rex Heureman, who's going to face 439 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,800 Speaker 2: trial in the Long Island serial killer case. Cheryl McCollum. 440 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:42,159 Speaker 2: I recently interviewed a sex worker who went out to 441 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:46,200 Speaker 2: dinner with Rex Hureman, and she got so freaked out 442 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 2: by him she didn't keep the date. I'm using that ephemistically. 443 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:56,120 Speaker 2: She said that he kept talking about the Long Island 444 00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:00,199 Speaker 2: serial killing victims, like how it would be easy for 445 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,919 Speaker 2: someone to put them in canvas bags and wear camo 446 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,399 Speaker 2: and drag them out into the brush along Gilgo Beach. 447 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:12,200 Speaker 2: He relived it, telling her about it, just like this guy, 448 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 2: the Border patrol agent talking about the other victims to 449 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:18,919 Speaker 2: a potential victim. 450 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 5: Absolutely, he has got the best job. It is perfect 451 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 5: for a cover to gain intel and also to have 452 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 5: the ability to commit these crimes. Nancy. He can pull 453 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,880 Speaker 5: these women over, He can stop and interview or interrogate them. 454 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 5: He can pack them down. He can even quote arrest 455 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:40,199 Speaker 5: them and then let them go and then they have 456 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:42,879 Speaker 5: a need to give him some type of favor. He 457 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 5: can also use them as confidential informants. He was set 458 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,719 Speaker 5: up beautifully, and then when he was added to the 459 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 5: task force, then he got information before anybody else would 460 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,680 Speaker 5: have it to say, Hey, if my DNA's there, I'm 461 00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 5: going to come up with a reason that it was. Yeah, 462 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:00,920 Speaker 5: I had sex with her, that I was not the 463 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:01,919 Speaker 5: last person with her. 464 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:05,119 Speaker 3: Yeah, you hear him in all of his excuses. 465 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:08,160 Speaker 7: Nancy, Peter Brodsky here, good jump in. Yeah. I wanted 466 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,119 Speaker 7: to say that it's not unusual in these kinds of 467 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:16,639 Speaker 7: cases with sex worker victims that the perpetrator was acquainted 468 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 7: with the victim, and that might have been a past 469 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:23,919 Speaker 7: customer or had met them, hung out with them in 470 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 7: the doughnuts store when they're working their track. He knows them, 471 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,359 Speaker 7: he's almost their friend. And then they end up dead, 472 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 7: maybe even a year later into a relationship. This is 473 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:40,399 Speaker 7: not unusual. They don't necessarily strike the first time in 474 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:44,160 Speaker 7: an unknown victim who's a sex worker. This is part 475 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 7: of that psychopathology. 476 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 2: That's making a lot of sense and following up on 477 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:52,480 Speaker 2: what we just heard and what Cheryl McCollum was telling us. 478 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 3: Take listen how. 479 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:58,480 Speaker 2: Sneaky and deli as Ortiz is take us an hour 480 00:27:58,560 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 2: twenty two during. 481 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:03,160 Speaker 4: The truck, the district Attorney Ellenise said Ortiz knew exactly 482 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 4: what he was doing as he plotted out the killings. 483 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 4: Fellow investigators were trying to hunt down the killer and 484 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 4: called the South Texas Border Intelligence Center asking for help 485 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 4: finding a veteran sex worker, Claudine Luera. She worked Sam 486 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,680 Speaker 4: Bernardo and told others she had an idea about who 487 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,720 Speaker 4: was behind the killing of Melissa Ramirez. The next day, 488 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:25,160 Speaker 4: Lua was murdered. Alanse asked the jury. Did Ortiz, who 489 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 4: was on duty that day, hear about the call asking 490 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 4: about Luera? Did he hunt her down and kill her 491 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:33,919 Speaker 4: before she got a chance to talk and identify Ortise 492 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 4: or was it a coincidence that she died the next day? 493 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 2: There is no coincidence in criminal law. She calls in 494 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 2: and says, hey, I think I know who did it. 495 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 2: He can be the recipient of that information. And the 496 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 2: next day she's dead. Well, it's not a mystery anymore. 497 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 2: Listen to this our cut twenty. 498 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 4: Jan David Ortiz confessed to killing the four sex workers 499 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 4: during a lengthy interview with v instigators. Ortiz told the 500 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 4: investigators he had been a customer of most of the women, 501 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 4: but he also expressed disdain for sex workers, referring to 502 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,760 Speaker 4: them as trash and so dirty and insisting he wanted 503 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 4: to clean up the streets. He even said quote the 504 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 4: monster would come out unquote as he drove along a 505 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 4: stretch of street in Laredo, franqueted by women. Investigators have 506 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 4: not ruled out the possibility that our teas had additional victims. 507 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 2: Oh, I believe there will be additional victims uncovered. 508 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 1: Prime stories with Nancy Grace. 509 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 2: Guys, we are going from BTK to a Border Patrol 510 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 2: agent now convinct that as a serial killer to Oregon. 511 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,320 Speaker 2: You all remember in women's dead bodies were popping up 512 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 2: in a law enforcement kept saying they're not connected, They're 513 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 2: not connected. 514 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 3: They are connected. 515 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 4: Listen to this In Oregon, a month after police suggested 516 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 4: the mysterious deaths of six women were not connected, officials 517 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,200 Speaker 4: changed their announcement and said they believe at least four 518 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 4: of the killings are connected, Kristin Smith, Bridgiet Webster, Charity Perry, 519 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 4: and Ashley Real. The victims' bodies were all found in 520 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 4: wooded and rural areas between February and May. Nine agencies 521 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 4: took part in the investigation, leading them to a person 522 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,240 Speaker 4: of interest, but officials have not announced the name of 523 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,000 Speaker 4: the person or how they determine the deaths they're connected. 524 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:45,719 Speaker 2: Guys, is a serial killer stalking Oregon? Joining me of 525 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 2: course our all star panel, but two Doctor Peter Vronsky, 526 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 2: what do you make of it? 527 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 7: It's entirely possible. But it's becoming more difficult for us 528 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 7: to make these kinds of connections we used to be 529 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 7: because we no longer rely on criminal profiling as the 530 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:10,480 Speaker 7: science we thought it was, and so now geo forensic 531 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,720 Speaker 7: profiling is a little bit more reliable. We're seeing too 532 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 7: many gaps in past psychological profiling, which is really a 533 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 7: combination of an art and a science. It depends on 534 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 7: how talented the particular profiler is and so what seems 535 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 7: obvious to many of us in the past is not 536 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 7: as obvious now. And we're focused more on collecting DNA 537 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:39,560 Speaker 7: scientific evidence to link cases, and so we're now hesitant 538 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 7: just because And by the way, we don't profile on 539 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 7: the basis of modus operandi, but on the basis of signature. 540 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 7: And we're you know, we already have established that modus 541 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:54,480 Speaker 7: operandi changes with a serial perpetrator depending on the circumstance, 542 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 7: but the signature remains static. And we're now learning with 543 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 7: years that even the signature can alter. So I understand 544 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 7: why nobody's rushing in to make these connections until they 545 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 7: have the evidence for it. Man say, that's called ritualization. 546 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,960 Speaker 3: Go ahead, Del Carson, That's called ritualization. 547 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 7: And what we see is that in serial killers, over time, 548 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 7: their behavior becomes more internally complex. And that's what I 549 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 7: meant by falling into the pattern. Once you fall into 550 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 7: the pattern, and you're wearing a red dress and you've 551 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 7: got high heels on, you're falling into a pattern. You 552 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 7: don't know you're falling into a pattern, but you do. 553 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 7: And as the the individual who is the perpetrator becomes 554 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:46,160 Speaker 7: more longly involved in the behavior, it just gets internally 555 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 7: more complex and they have to have any number of 556 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 7: factors present in order to get their satisfaction from the event. Yes, exactly. 557 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 7: And the more you incidents you have to analyze, the 558 00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:00,160 Speaker 7: more you can focus that. So it's very difficult with 559 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 7: four cases to yet find that, especially if they're in 560 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 7: a short period, to make that clear connection that you 561 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 7: would announce to the public you've got a serial killer 562 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 7: out there. 563 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 2: What about the fact that the name emerges of Jesse 564 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:23,360 Speaker 2: Calhoun and that the girlfriend of Jesse Calhoun is who 565 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:28,760 Speaker 2: is linked to these four deaths, says he knew at 566 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 2: least two of the victims straight out to Cheryl McCollum, 567 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,960 Speaker 2: director of the Cold Case Research Institute and for expert, 568 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 2: the girlfriend in this case, the girlfriend of thirty eight 569 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 2: year old person that is a suspect in four of 570 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 2: these cases, says he knew two of them. Wow, again, 571 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:53,760 Speaker 2: that's quite the coincidence, isn't it, Cheryl? 572 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,400 Speaker 5: Surely is. And you say it all the time, Nancy. 573 00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 5: If you want to know about a horse, look at 574 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,960 Speaker 5: his track record, run this guy's history and you start 575 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,200 Speaker 5: to see there's a faults as far back as two 576 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:08,560 Speaker 5: thousand and three. He assaults again in two thousand and 577 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 5: seven with a kidnapping and then in twenty nineteen the 578 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:17,480 Speaker 5: assault of a police officer. That is sixteen years of 579 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:21,799 Speaker 5: violence against people. So you have to take this guy 580 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 5: into account and his connection with those two bos Well, not. 581 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 2: Only does he have a violent past and he's connected 582 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:33,560 Speaker 2: to the victims. He actually got clemency from the governor 583 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,399 Speaker 2: at twenty twenty one, and as soon as he's out 584 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 2: in twenty twenty one, the killings commands Ashley Real, Bridget Webster, 585 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 2: Charity Perry, and Kristin Smith, they're all dead. 586 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:48,640 Speaker 3: Have you looked at them? 587 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 2: They're physically similar to doctor Kendall Crowns joining me chief 588 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 2: medical Examiner out of Terrant County, Lecturer University Texas Austin 589 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:02,239 Speaker 2: and TCU Medical School, Dodgor Kendall Crowns. We've seen it 590 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,279 Speaker 2: over and over and over. I don't know how many 591 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,879 Speaker 2: thousands of autopsies you've conducted, but when you're dealing with 592 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,840 Speaker 2: a serial killer, I mean Ted Bundy, many of his 593 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:18,959 Speaker 2: victims look so similar. White females, very slight in their 594 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 2: physical characteristics, dark hair parted down the middle. They all 595 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 2: look very similar, as do these women. Have you seen 596 00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:32,480 Speaker 2: that in your practice, doctor Kendall Crowns. 597 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:32,960 Speaker 3: Yeah. 598 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:38,279 Speaker 9: Occasionally, when dealing with cases of a similar murderer, they 599 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:43,880 Speaker 9: will choose a specific target on a routine basis. Whatever 600 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 9: it is psychologically that drives them seems to a target 601 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:51,000 Speaker 9: a specific one. So you will see with serial killers 602 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:55,400 Speaker 9: multiple victims with similar characteristics killed in a similar manner. 603 00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:57,800 Speaker 2: Following up on what Cheryl McCollum just said, take a 604 00:35:57,800 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 2: listener cut twenty six from Crime Online. 605 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 4: Investigators said the deaths of Kristen Smith, Charity Perry, Bridget Webster, 606 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 4: and actually Real r link together, and sources say a 607 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:10,680 Speaker 4: person of interest is already off the streets. The person 608 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,719 Speaker 4: of interest, thirty eight year old Jesse Lee Calhoun, is 609 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:17,600 Speaker 4: currently booked in the Snake River Correctional Institution. The Molnomah 610 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 4: County Sheriff's Office has described Calhoun as a prolific thief 611 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:24,280 Speaker 4: and career criminal. He was serving a sentence on burglary 612 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,640 Speaker 4: when he was among the inmates granted clemency by former 613 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:31,000 Speaker 4: Oregon Governor Kate Brown in twenty twenty one. This was 614 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:34,439 Speaker 4: for fighting the twenty twenty wildfires. The clemency shaved about 615 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 4: twelve months off his prison sentence. That sentence was set 616 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:39,799 Speaker 4: to end in July twenty twenty two, and. 617 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 2: Of course the bodies start piling up. But we know 618 00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 2: more about his background. Take a listen to thirty. 619 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:49,759 Speaker 4: Jesse Lee Calhoun is experienced in the ways of the 620 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:53,040 Speaker 4: Department of Corrections. In twenty nineteen, Calhoun was charged with 621 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:55,959 Speaker 4: three counts of unauthorized use of a vehicle, one count 622 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 4: of assaulting a public safety officer, one count of first 623 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 4: degree burglary. Givens from the incident show that when SWAT 624 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:05,120 Speaker 4: arrived at Calhoun's house to arrest him on outstanding warrants 625 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:09,000 Speaker 4: in defiance, he choked the CA nine and repeatedly kicked 626 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:12,080 Speaker 4: an officer. His original projected release date was in June 627 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:15,600 Speaker 4: twenty twenty two. However, in twenty twenty one, then Governor 628 00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:19,000 Speaker 4: Kate Brown signed a commutation order providing clemency to certain 629 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,000 Speaker 4: prisoners who met the criteria. Calhoun was one of those 630 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,239 Speaker 4: prisoners and was released on July twenty second, twenty twenty one. 631 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:29,840 Speaker 2: Clares are now emerging about how poorly Calhoun was actually 632 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:34,840 Speaker 2: monitored by LA law enforcement. One of the women Calhoun 633 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:40,839 Speaker 2: is suspected of murdering actually real actually had filed a 634 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:44,640 Speaker 2: domestic violence complaint against him. 635 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:48,160 Speaker 3: For guess what strangulation. 636 00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:53,799 Speaker 2: To you, Cheryl McCollum, The same mo we believe was 637 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 2: used in killing the others. 638 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:59,560 Speaker 5: Patterns, patterns, patterns. You cannot ignore them. They won't get 639 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:03,080 Speaker 5: rid of They're going to continue to use what they 640 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,560 Speaker 5: get gratification from the way they want to do it. 641 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:10,279 Speaker 5: This is so clear once you start breaking down all 642 00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 5: of these elements. 643 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,920 Speaker 6: What about it, Frank fell Zone, Well, what I have learned, Nancy, 644 00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:19,000 Speaker 6: is we all, I mean all have a dark side. 645 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:22,319 Speaker 6: Most of us don't want to know about it. And 646 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 6: with these killers, what happens is whether it's drugs, sex, 647 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:32,759 Speaker 6: whatever motivates them to open up their dark side and 648 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:37,080 Speaker 6: start living it out. The human mind was always a 649 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:42,759 Speaker 6: fascination to me, particularly with serial killers. These people get very, 650 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:47,080 Speaker 6: very dark. Their egos are huge. They know they've gotten 651 00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:50,280 Speaker 6: away with it once and it becomes a lot easier 652 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:53,760 Speaker 6: this second time, the third time, and now they're playing 653 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:57,120 Speaker 6: a game. Can they get caught again? I'll go back 654 00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:00,759 Speaker 6: to Richard Ramiris. He made a deal with the devil, 655 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:04,439 Speaker 6: and the devil was with him. As his savior and 656 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:07,960 Speaker 6: the devil would protect him from law enforcement. It was 657 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:13,600 Speaker 6: an extremely interesting case for more reasons than one. Fascinating 658 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:16,840 Speaker 6: case for a study on serial killers. 659 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:20,200 Speaker 2: Douglas McGregor a joining me geographic profile or you can 660 00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:23,319 Speaker 2: find him at the geo profile or what do you 661 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:27,480 Speaker 2: make of this case as it relates to your specialty. 662 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:31,520 Speaker 8: I think Jesse Calhoun is a strong person of interest 663 00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,960 Speaker 8: just looking at the where the where the four women 664 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:39,239 Speaker 8: were found. You know, he lives within eighteen miles of 665 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,920 Speaker 8: three of them, sixty miles to the other one. Just 666 00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:48,240 Speaker 8: statistically speaking, you know, most offenders Gary Ridgeway, Ted Bundy 667 00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:52,440 Speaker 8: included in that area, you know, they dispose of bodies, 668 00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:55,600 Speaker 8: you know, within thirty miles of their residence. Very few 669 00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:59,280 Speaker 8: offenders go past that so unless they are personally connected 670 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:04,840 Speaker 8: to the victim. So it does make a strong argument 671 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,040 Speaker 8: for Jesse Calhoun just in the proximity and the distance 672 00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:11,719 Speaker 8: from his house. Also, just you know, the bodies is 673 00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:15,080 Speaker 8: a common traits, you know, common victimology. They're found in 674 00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:19,120 Speaker 8: wooded areas, they founded found along roads. You know, most 675 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,880 Speaker 8: bodies are disposed of along roadways. After that, you got 676 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:27,000 Speaker 8: you got wooded areas and uh and water. So there 677 00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:30,880 Speaker 8: is a there's a strong argument for for Calhoun, and 678 00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:34,040 Speaker 8: as Cheryl mentioned, just his you know, his past record, 679 00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:40,759 Speaker 8: his past behaviors. So that's uh, it's it's a it's 680 00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:42,959 Speaker 8: a good argument and I think he's a good strong 681 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:44,160 Speaker 8: person of interests at attending. 682 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,600 Speaker 2: Well, this guy, jesse Lee Calhoun, is headed to court. 683 00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:50,600 Speaker 2: We wait as justice unfalls. 684 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:51,000 Speaker 9: Good life. 685 00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:51,239 Speaker 7: Frien