WEBVTT - How to Recover the Person You Were Meant to Be with Paul Churchill 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.080 Do you ever feel like life is just one problem 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:06.120 after another. You finally feel like maybe there's a break, 0:00:06.120 --> 0:00:09.200 and then bam, another problem. This is how it is 0:00:09.280 --> 0:00:11.520 for many of us. But there is a better way 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:15.120 to respond, a way of responding that brings greater ease 0:00:15.200 --> 0:00:17.760 into your life and returns some of the energy that 0:00:17.800 --> 0:00:19.000 the problems. 0:00:18.600 --> 0:00:19.279 Drained from you. 0:00:19.560 --> 0:00:23.480 We are hosting a free live masterclass on Sunday, March third, 0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:27.840 called Learn the Keystone Habit to unlock energy and ease 0:00:27.920 --> 0:00:30.040 in your life. In it, I will teach you how 0:00:30.080 --> 0:00:33.160 to tap into resources already within you so that life 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:36.479 feels less like a never ending fight and more like 0:00:36.560 --> 0:00:40.040 an ever evolving dance. You will learn the number one 0:00:40.120 --> 0:00:43.159 source of unhappiness that drains your energy and keeps you 0:00:43.240 --> 0:00:46.319 feeling stuck, and a simple mindset shift you can make 0:00:46.479 --> 0:00:49.440 right away so that life doesn't feel like such a 0:00:49.479 --> 0:00:52.280 constant struggle. This will be a live event and you'll 0:00:52.280 --> 0:00:54.400 have a chance to interact with me and each other. 0:00:54.680 --> 0:00:57.440 I've really grown to love these community events where we 0:00:57.520 --> 0:01:00.200 get to meet each other and deepen our connections, and 0:01:00.240 --> 0:01:02.480 I hope that you can become part of that. Go 0:01:02.560 --> 0:01:05.960 to one you feed dot net slash live to learn 0:01:06.000 --> 0:01:09.200 more and register for this free event. Again, that's one 0:01:09.240 --> 0:01:12.200 you feed dot net slash live. I hope to see 0:01:12.240 --> 0:01:12.640 you there. 0:01:13.360 --> 0:01:16.640 To bring people around a campfire, which we've been doing 0:01:16.680 --> 0:01:19.600 for hundreds of thousands of years of human beings come 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:22.959 together to discuss our differences are resolved and we are 0:01:23.080 --> 0:01:27.319 pack animals. Recently it's like this wave of isolation individualism. 0:01:27.360 --> 0:01:30.039 But wow, we need other human beings. We do. 0:01:38.240 --> 0:01:41.759 Welcome to the one you feed. Throughout time, great tinkers 0:01:41.760 --> 0:01:45.160 have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:48.840 like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, 0:01:49.240 --> 0:01:52.400 ring true, and yet for many of us, our thoughts 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:58.040 don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, 0:01:58.320 --> 0:02:01.120 or fear. We see what we don't have instead of 0:02:01.160 --> 0:02:03.880 what we do. We think things that hold us back 0:02:03.960 --> 0:02:07.320 and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. 0:02:07.720 --> 0:02:11.959 Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent and creative effort 0:02:12.000 --> 0:02:15.240 to make a life worth living. This podcast is about 0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:17.920 how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, 0:02:18.440 --> 0:02:35.440 how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us. 0:02:35.560 --> 0:02:38.360 Our guest on this episode is Paul Churchill. Paul is 0:02:38.360 --> 0:02:42.320 the creator and host of the Recovery Elevator podcast. Today, 0:02:42.320 --> 0:02:46.280 Paul and Eric discuss his great new book, Alcohol Is Shit, 0:02:46.560 --> 0:02:49.920 How to Ditch the Booze, reignite your life and recover 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:51.840 the person you were always meant to be. 0:02:52.520 --> 0:02:53.840 Hi, Paul, Welcome to the show. 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:55.800 Eric, Hello, thank you for having me. 0:02:55.919 --> 0:02:58.040 Yeah, I'm really excited to talk with you. We're going 0:02:58.080 --> 0:03:02.200 to be discussing your book called Alcohol Is Shit, How 0:03:02.200 --> 0:03:04.880 to Ditch the Booze, Reignite your life and recover the 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:07.560 person you were always meant to be. But before we 0:03:07.639 --> 0:03:10.800 get into that, we will be starting with a parable, 0:03:10.880 --> 0:03:12.720 like we always do. And in the parable, there's a 0:03:12.760 --> 0:03:15.720 grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, 0:03:16.160 --> 0:03:18.440 there are two wolves inside of us that are always 0:03:18.440 --> 0:03:21.480 at battle. What is a good wolf which represents things 0:03:21.560 --> 0:03:24.720 like kindness and bravery and love, and the other's a 0:03:24.720 --> 0:03:28.680 bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. 0:03:29.080 --> 0:03:31.079 And the grandchild stops and they think about it for 0:03:31.120 --> 0:03:33.400 a second. They look up at their grandparent and they say, well, 0:03:33.440 --> 0:03:37.240 which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. 0:03:38.080 --> 0:03:40.000 So I'd like to start off by asking you what 0:03:40.080 --> 0:03:43.040 that parable means to you in your life and in 0:03:43.080 --> 0:03:43.920 the work that you do. 0:03:44.280 --> 0:03:47.119 Wow, Eric, thanks for having me. It's great to be here. 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:49.080 I've heard you work for a long time and thank you. 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:52.720 So the older I get, the more I recognize that 0:03:53.280 --> 0:03:57.480 we do have an influence over our life, right, our thoughts. Actually, 0:03:57.640 --> 0:03:59.280 it can instruct physical reality. 0:03:59.760 --> 0:04:01.320 And you know where I. 0:04:01.320 --> 0:04:04.800 Choose to put my mental energies I find is what 0:04:05.080 --> 0:04:07.960 I get more in return. In fact, I came across 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:10.280 a pdf on religions. If you could distill them all 0:04:10.320 --> 0:04:12.720 into like one sentence or less, and they're all the 0:04:12.760 --> 0:04:15.360 golden rule. Treat others the way you want to be treated, 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:17.600 treat thy neighbor the way you want to be treated. 0:04:17.920 --> 0:04:20.479 And I think with the parable, it's where you place 0:04:20.480 --> 0:04:22.960 your energies. Yes, we live in a world of duality, Eric, 0:04:22.960 --> 0:04:25.040 where there's good and bad. You have to have them 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:30.400 both for definitional purposes. But I choose to see wholeness 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:33.200 in everything, and I choose to nourish that part of 0:04:33.240 --> 0:04:35.719 me that is rooted in love, that is rooted in bravery, 0:04:35.800 --> 0:04:38.359 that is rooted and acceptance in wholeness. Yeah, I love it. 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:41.640 That's a great answer, and one of the things on 0:04:41.760 --> 0:04:45.240 your podcast, Recovery Elevator, which is a great show for 0:04:45.279 --> 0:04:47.760 people who are interested in recovery. Paul's is one of 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:50.479 the best shows out there. You talk about what you 0:04:50.560 --> 0:04:53.160 just talked about there often, and even in your book 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:55.359 later on, you talk a lot about the power of 0:04:55.400 --> 0:04:58.800 our thoughts. But where I'd like to start is with 0:04:59.320 --> 0:05:02.440 you of just described that you have the single most 0:05:02.560 --> 0:05:05.960 accurate assessment test for alcohol. And the reason I want 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:08.039 to start there is that a lot of people they're 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:11.159 not sure about do they have a problem with alcohol 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:14.320 or drugs. Now, some of us, like me, I was 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:17.640 pretty sure pretty early on, and it wasn't so much 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:20.120 a question of whether I had a problem in my case, 0:05:20.320 --> 0:05:22.359 was whether I was actually ever going to do anything 0:05:22.440 --> 0:05:24.800 about it, and whether if I did something about it, 0:05:24.839 --> 0:05:27.680 whether it would actually work. But I know many many 0:05:27.720 --> 0:05:31.440 people have a more nuanced relationship with alcohol and drugs, 0:05:31.440 --> 0:05:34.480 and so they're asking themselves often am I alcoholic? Or 0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:37.400 do I have a problem? Or should I stop drinking? 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:39.840 And there's lots of different ways people phrase that question, 0:05:40.000 --> 0:05:42.480 and there's lots of different surveys out there you can 0:05:42.520 --> 0:05:44.919 take and you say you've got a one question survey 0:05:45.000 --> 0:05:47.680 that is the most accurate you know, so tell us 0:05:47.680 --> 0:05:48.080 about that. 0:05:48.440 --> 0:05:50.560 I do, Eric, and thanks for setting that up. I 0:05:50.600 --> 0:05:54.359 love this question because most of us embark on this deep, 0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:59.040 inter explorative journey spending thousands of dollars with therapists online. 0:05:59.080 --> 0:06:02.760 Quiz's question, you know from the brightest minds and institutions, 0:06:02.800 --> 0:06:05.400 and yes, those do all the place, Eric, I agree, 0:06:05.839 --> 0:06:07.919 But it can be this simple, and it was this 0:06:08.000 --> 0:06:10.240 simple for me. At the end is if you've ever 0:06:10.600 --> 0:06:14.200 asked the question, if you've ever wondered do I have 0:06:14.279 --> 0:06:18.760 a drinking problem? That simple inquiry just answered the question. 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:21.120 And for example, okay, so I'm here, I have a 0:06:21.120 --> 0:06:24.600 book alcohol Shit. I crashed and burned hard with alcohol, 0:06:24.800 --> 0:06:28.000 extremely hard, fast and early. I like I described that. 0:06:28.040 --> 0:06:29.839 For me, it was actually I was thankful that question 0:06:29.960 --> 0:06:33.520 was answered very quick. But for many and the stigma's 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:35.440 part of this too. We go so far and so 0:06:35.560 --> 0:06:37.240 long into this when we don't need to do so. 0:06:37.480 --> 0:06:39.800 But I had a problem with alcohol. I don't struggle 0:06:39.839 --> 0:06:42.320 with gambling, not once. If I ever asked myself, you know, 0:06:42.320 --> 0:06:44.280 do we have a gambling problem? Do we have an 0:06:44.279 --> 0:06:46.720 online shopping problem? Do I have a sex problem? I've 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:50.720 never asked myself those questions. So if you simply ask yourself, 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:53.839 and I feel this inquiry Eric is coming from a 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:57.599 deeper part of yourself saying, yo, hey there, buddy, this 0:06:57.720 --> 0:07:00.320 might be getting out of control, we might be going 0:07:00.320 --> 0:07:02.960 down a wrong path. And it's when that inner voice 0:07:03.200 --> 0:07:06.200 jumps in with those questions, with those narratives. If you 0:07:06.279 --> 0:07:09.039 ask the question do I have a drinking problem or not? 0:07:10.040 --> 0:07:12.600 You probably do. And if you've ever entered into Google, 0:07:12.640 --> 0:07:16.080 into google like online self alcohol assessment question, you've just 0:07:16.160 --> 0:07:17.960 answered it right there. You don't even need to take 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:20.720 the test. If you've ever entered you Know How to 0:07:20.840 --> 0:07:23.600 Quit Drinking podcasts like you know, do I have a problem? 0:07:23.640 --> 0:07:25.520 If you've already answered the question. 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:30.320 Let's assume that that's a fairly accurate diagnostic question. I 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:33.280 tend to agree with you that you don't search for 0:07:33.320 --> 0:07:35.120 that sort of stuff if you're not having some sort 0:07:35.120 --> 0:07:37.520 of problem. You know. The other way it was often 0:07:37.520 --> 0:07:39.200 phrased to me, is you know, do you have a 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:40.120 problem with alcohol? 0:07:40.120 --> 0:07:40.280 Well? 0:07:40.360 --> 0:07:42.840 Is alcohol causing any problems in your life? If so, 0:07:43.240 --> 0:07:46.920 you have a problem with alcohol? Is another fairly clear one. 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:49.720 My follow up question would be, let's say that that 0:07:49.920 --> 0:07:53.200 is accurate. Does that mean that if I've answered yes 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:56.480 to that question, that abstinence is the only path for me? 0:07:57.080 --> 0:07:59.120 Or is it perhaps that I have a problem that 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:01.920 I need to model. I mean, different people have different 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:05.800 opinions on this, right, and I'd be curious your opinion 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:07.160 and your experience with this. 0:08:07.440 --> 0:08:09.240 Yeah, Eric, and this is where I think it gets 0:08:09.280 --> 0:08:12.800 so beautifully interesting. It's confusing. It's not a black and 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:15.720 white world. It's full of paradoxes. There's a program called 0:08:15.760 --> 0:08:19.200 Alcoholics Anonymous, started in nineteen thirty five by Bill Wilson 0:08:19.240 --> 0:08:21.760 and doctor Bob. Many times in the Big Book it says, 0:08:21.840 --> 0:08:24.520 drinking is but a symptom. Right, you know what does 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:27.200 that mean? Alcohol is not the problem? It's not. It's 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:30.280 a symptom of other unrest in your life. However, to 0:08:30.520 --> 0:08:33.079 uncover that unrest and do any sort of inner growth 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:37.160 work with that, the alcohol has to go. Now, great question, 0:08:37.320 --> 0:08:39.200 is full abstinence the way to go? We can go 0:08:39.240 --> 0:08:42.280 here real quick with this. That's for everybody to decide, 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:45.439 And I think everybody who eventually arrives at full abstinence 0:08:45.760 --> 0:08:50.080 has to go through this chapter of moderating right. Ye, Look, 0:08:50.200 --> 0:08:52.600 I'm not drinking. I'm not drinking on the weekday, on 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:55.880 the weekends, I'm not drinking alone, not drinking before work, 0:08:56.200 --> 0:08:58.920 not drinking you know, in the Jupiter and moon or 0:08:58.960 --> 0:09:01.640 an eclipses together. Not you get it. But these are 0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:04.319 lines in the sand that if you do struggle with alcohol, 0:09:04.360 --> 0:09:09.760 eventually every single one of them will be crossed. And so, okay, 0:09:09.760 --> 0:09:11.960 I've been doing this for a hot minute and I 0:09:12.040 --> 0:09:15.600 have not come across anybody in a long term fashion 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:18.240 here that moderation has worked. I've heard stories of a 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:21.240 couple weeks, a couple months in my own in my 0:09:21.320 --> 0:09:24.559 own personal journey as well. Eric abstinence for me was 0:09:24.600 --> 0:09:29.240 the best way to go because of the progressiveness of alcoholism, 0:09:29.280 --> 0:09:33.160 but also the nature the way of life works, life circumstances. 0:09:33.200 --> 0:09:34.959 This could be deaths in the family, this could be 0:09:35.000 --> 0:09:38.240 your own personal tragedy or whatnot. Alcohol is a darn 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:41.080 good coping strategy for a short time. 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:41.480 You know. 0:09:41.559 --> 0:09:45.200 I think it's interesting because that moderation piece is so 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:47.800 true that I don't think anybody would get to the 0:09:47.920 --> 0:09:51.280 point of giving up alcohol or drugs if they actually 0:09:51.320 --> 0:09:53.600 love them, like any of us who have a problem 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:55.560 with them do. There's no way it was going to 0:09:55.600 --> 0:09:58.920 give them up without having tried everything else possible. 0:09:59.200 --> 0:10:01.040 First. You know, you mentioned AA. 0:10:01.080 --> 0:10:03.040 There's a line in the A Big Book, I think, 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:06.640 basically along the lines that you know, certain people will 0:10:06.760 --> 0:10:10.360 chase this idea that somehow, someway I'll control my drinking, 0:10:10.440 --> 0:10:12.400 you know, to the gates of insanity and death. 0:10:12.520 --> 0:10:12.679 Right. 0:10:12.720 --> 0:10:14.360 I mean, that's what we're trying to do. And I 0:10:14.440 --> 0:10:17.160 tried all those things this last time when I got sober, 0:10:17.320 --> 0:10:19.280 what I hope is the last time fifteen years ago, 0:10:19.600 --> 0:10:22.800 I actually did a stint in moderation management as a 0:10:22.800 --> 0:10:26.880 program first, and I've shared about this before, but it 0:10:26.960 --> 0:10:30.320 was so good for me because I failed so badly 0:10:30.400 --> 0:10:30.800 at it. 0:10:30.840 --> 0:10:32.439 But I tried so hard. 0:10:32.800 --> 0:10:34.880 I had been sober eight years before I knew what 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:37.760 abstinence was, I knew what AA was. I was like, 0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:40.240 I do not want to go back and hang out 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:42.520 with those people. I do not want to give up 0:10:42.720 --> 0:10:46.559 my alcohol. So I tried everything I could and moderation management, 0:10:46.679 --> 0:10:47.480 and I. 0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:48.440 Couldn't do it. 0:10:47.960 --> 0:10:50.559 It would set out like well your weight or whatever 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:53.280 you could have, you know, two drinks a day or 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:54.920 a drink and a half a day or whatever. 0:10:55.000 --> 0:10:57.640 And I was already immediately. 0:10:57.000 --> 0:10:59.320 Inflating my weight from about one hundred and forty five 0:10:59.360 --> 0:11:01.200 pounds to about one hundred and eighty pounds so that 0:11:01.240 --> 0:11:02.880 I could get to the two and a half drinks 0:11:02.880 --> 0:11:05.400 a day or whatever it was, right. And then, of 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:08.280 course a drink is measured by certain number of ounces, 0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:10.160 but you know, well, we don't have to be real 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:12.520 accurate that, so I was cheating from the very beginning. 0:11:12.640 --> 0:11:15.840 And even while cheating, I couldn't do it most of 0:11:15.840 --> 0:11:18.760 the time. I remember this, you know, this is one 0:11:18.800 --> 0:11:23.080 of my most like poignant memories of that time. Of 0:11:23.280 --> 0:11:25.520 it would be like, let's say eleven thirty at night. 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:28.120 I worked a corporate job, so I'd have to be 0:11:28.240 --> 0:11:31.160 up the next morning. I'm in my kitchen by myself. 0:11:31.200 --> 0:11:33.360 Everybody's gone to bed. It's not like I'm at a party. 0:11:33.760 --> 0:11:36.560 Nothing is happening. It's time to go to bed, and 0:11:36.600 --> 0:11:39.160 I'm standing there with a bottle of whiskey on the counter, 0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:42.959 and I'm trying to not take another drink for which 0:11:43.040 --> 0:11:46.160 there's no possible reason on earth to take another drink. 0:11:46.320 --> 0:11:48.880 There's no good reason, and I'm trying as hard as 0:11:48.920 --> 0:11:51.640 I can not to do it, and yet more often 0:11:51.679 --> 0:11:55.240 than not, I poured another drink. And I'm so glad 0:11:55.280 --> 0:11:58.960 I went through that process because then it was much clearer, 0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:02.160 like Okay, my brain goes well, moderation, I go. We 0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:05.760 tried that really hard and it just didn't work. Now 0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:08.000 I'm not saying that's the way it is for everybody, 0:12:08.280 --> 0:12:10.880 but I know that in moderation management, what I saw 0:12:11.120 --> 0:12:14.520 was a lot of alcoholics hanging around hoping that there 0:12:14.720 --> 0:12:16.880 was a moderate answer to this. 0:12:17.400 --> 0:12:19.640 Eric, I like you phrased that, And through those failures, 0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:22.319 and I had hundreds of them, with moderation, we almost 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:25.959 learned that the abstinence actually is the path of least resistance. 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:28.320 We think abstinence is this like, oh my god, it's 0:12:28.320 --> 0:12:31.240 life in the dentist's chair, but it's flipped because there 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:34.160 is such an obsessive compulsion, as you mentioned, to find 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:37.200 a way to drink without impunity, which I tried hundreds 0:12:37.200 --> 0:12:38.839 and hundreds of ways. I couldn't find it. But I 0:12:38.840 --> 0:12:41.600 think what we say it's like moderate with alcohol, we 0:12:41.640 --> 0:12:43.920 almost say it like in brevity, like it's light. You know, 0:12:44.000 --> 0:12:46.360 I can't can't have just a couple. But if you 0:12:46.360 --> 0:12:49.640 look at the addictive traits of the chemical alcohol. It's 0:12:49.679 --> 0:12:51.800 one of the most addictive drugs in the world. And 0:12:51.840 --> 0:12:53.760 if we were to say like moderate, you know, let's 0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:56.240 moderate our heroin or crack use, like it just doesn't 0:12:56.280 --> 0:12:58.920 have the same ring to it when actually alcohol is. 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:01.400 This study show that it's just the most addictive drug 0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:03.400 in the world and it kills more people every day 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:07.240 than every other drug combined. Quite remarkable that way, and 0:13:07.320 --> 0:13:10.240 one of them thought of this in twenty twelve. You know, 0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:12.439 apps are everywhere now, but there was a time when 0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:15.760 a BAC of blood alcohol content app tracker came out. 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:18.280 I said, yes, here's a way to moderately drink. So 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:20.679 I went to Old Chicago's downloaded the app. I'm not 0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:23.080 going to be drunk driving home and to drink in 0:13:23.080 --> 0:13:25.240 that responsible way. At the the app told me when 0:13:25.360 --> 0:13:26.920 when to order the next drink so I could be 0:13:26.960 --> 0:13:30.400 safe to drive. It was so painful, Eric and I 0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:32.720 didn't even survive that way, just all right, two more 0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:34.400 that just deleted the app, right. 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:37.440 Then, Yeah, there's another line from the AA Big Book 0:13:37.720 --> 0:13:40.319 that I ever fully understood, and it was that, you know, 0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:43.800 something about we could not control and enjoy our drinking. 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:47.319 And what I realized was, I get that, like, if 0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:50.520 I'm trying to control it, hey, I ultimately can't do it. 0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:52.440 But even while I'm trying to do it, I'm not 0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:56.200 enjoying my drinking. It's miserable, you know. It's just or 0:13:56.559 --> 0:13:59.520 I can completely let go of the control and then 0:13:59.559 --> 0:14:01.560 I'm able to enjoy it a little bit, of course, 0:14:01.640 --> 0:14:05.040 until it all comes crashing down. But that recognizing those 0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:08.280 two things as not being able to coexist was really 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:11.120 helpful to me and leads me into another topic I 0:14:11.120 --> 0:14:13.800 want to discuss though, because I'd get why abstinence is 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:16.920 really important for me. I get why abstinence is important 0:14:16.960 --> 0:14:19.920 for most people who are problem drinkers, and it's because 0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:22.880 of what you said to me. Abstinence is so important. 0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:25.400 It's because it's the only way that the mechanism of 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:29.520 craving ever gets shut off. Meaning if I don't get 0:14:29.840 --> 0:14:33.880 complete space from alcohol, then I'm in that craving game 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:36.320 again and again. But I think one of the problems 0:14:36.360 --> 0:14:41.040 with an abstinence only viewpoint towards alcohol is that there's 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:45.280 no room for progress in that right, meaning the scoring 0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:48.120 is one hundred percent or zero. Right, You're either one 0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:52.480 hundred percent like not alcohol free or your zero. And 0:14:52.920 --> 0:14:56.480 I've seen that can be very discouraging and detrimental to people. 0:14:56.560 --> 0:14:59.880 So how do you think about that in terms of like, yeah, 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:02.040 absence is where we want to get, but how do 0:15:02.080 --> 0:15:04.400 I measure progress along the way if I'm not able 0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:06.360 to get to full absence right out of the gate? 0:15:06.760 --> 0:15:09.160 Okay, Hey, I'm really glad you brought that up, Eric, 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:12.800 because the way most people land in sobriety and I'm 0:15:12.800 --> 0:15:15.600 no different here, and thank goodness, I'm on a current 0:15:15.680 --> 0:15:17.840 nine plus year away from my last drink. Hope that 0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:20.480 never changes. But the way most of us get here 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:22.800 is by stacking days. Right. It's not a one and 0:15:22.840 --> 0:15:25.480 done thing. In fact, I've interviewed over four hundred people 0:15:25.480 --> 0:15:28.400 on the Recovery Ell Theater podcast. Very few of them 0:15:28.760 --> 0:15:30.640 were one and done. Like you know, I'm done with this. 0:15:31.000 --> 0:15:33.800 It rarely happens, and it lots more of what's called 0:15:33.840 --> 0:15:35.960 stacking days. You get three days here, you get a 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:38.720 week there, and even years. You look back at the 0:15:38.800 --> 0:15:41.400 years orre like, Hey, in twenty twenty two, I went 0:15:41.440 --> 0:15:44.640 thirty three percent alcohol free. In twenty twenty three, I'm 0:15:44.680 --> 0:15:48.400 seventy five percent alcohol free. I think we're going for abstinence, 0:15:48.440 --> 0:15:50.600 but really I think that's how we get there. In 0:15:50.680 --> 0:15:54.280 more accurate terms, I think that's how most of us 0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:55.840 land in sobriety. 0:15:56.240 --> 0:15:58.720 That makes a lot of sense and certainly my experience, 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:02.600 and I think that given that I was either completely 0:16:02.640 --> 0:16:04.880 abstinate or not, it was one hundred percent or zero 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:07.400 in the scoring system I was given and introduced to, 0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:11.320 it led to when I wasn't one hundred percent just 0:16:11.360 --> 0:16:13.360 giving up completely, I mean, and so it was just 0:16:13.440 --> 0:16:16.880 profoundly discouraging, right, And so I think what you're saying 0:16:17.000 --> 0:16:19.480 is I wish I'd had more people tell me, and 0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:22.040 I wish I'd understood more that, like, you're going to 0:16:22.120 --> 0:16:25.640 have to make multiple runs at this, Right, You're going 0:16:25.720 --> 0:16:27.480 to come in and you're going to learn some things 0:16:27.520 --> 0:16:29.480 and you're going to do better, and then you're going 0:16:29.560 --> 0:16:32.240 to come up against something you can't you know, handle, 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:35.240 and then you're going to come back again, and over 0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:38.080 time you'll eventually get there. That wasn't the way it 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:40.360 was presented to me. So I ended up in a 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:43.000 really dark period where I thought I've done everything they 0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:44.880 told me to do, right. I was a heroin addict 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:47.600 at the time, right, And I've gone to treatment. You know, 0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:50.520 I did thirty meetings and thirty days, I got a sponsor, 0:16:50.560 --> 0:16:53.440 I did all those things and it didn't work. And so, 0:16:53.560 --> 0:16:55.440 you know what, I can't do this. I'm not the 0:16:55.520 --> 0:16:57.560 kind of person that will ever get this. And I 0:16:57.560 --> 0:16:59.920 wish it'd have been presented to me more the way 0:16:59.920 --> 0:17:03.000 you're presenting it, because that was a really dangerous period 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:05.080 when I thought I can't get this. I'm not the 0:17:05.160 --> 0:17:07.359 kind of person that'll ever get sober. That was a 0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:08.880 dangerous and dark period. 0:17:09.040 --> 0:17:10.840 There was a movement in the late eighteen hundred It's 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:12.760 called the Temperance movement, and I think that's one of 0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:15.439 the reasons why it's not around today because it was 0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:18.880 basically an internal and external declaration Melty with the Church 0:17:18.920 --> 0:17:23.119 of I'm going to abstain from alcohol. However, there was 0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:25.680 no work. There was no inner work, there's no recovery work, 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:28.000 there was no spiritual growth, there was no program. Then 0:17:28.000 --> 0:17:30.040 I think when AA came along, you know, they filled 0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:33.560 that void. And you're right, that's black and white. I drank. Oops, 0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:36.399 I can't get this, and I went through a period 0:17:36.400 --> 0:17:38.680 of that to Eric where I had so many day 0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:40.600 ones and I was going to the meetings or whatnot, 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:43.800 and I'm such a stubborn dude. I started my own 0:17:43.880 --> 0:17:47.280 sobriety tracker app. The reason why Eric there was only 0:17:47.320 --> 0:17:49.840 like one or two on iTunes of that time, and 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:52.960 the one that I had started off you got a 0:17:53.040 --> 0:17:55.480 day after twenty four hours, and I had so many 0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:58.000 times where I didn't even have a day. I actually 0:17:58.160 --> 0:18:00.159 developed an that was still on the app store, the 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:03.400 Recovery Elevator Sobriety Tracker, that you start on day one, 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:06.840 like if you're on day one. But I just couldn't 0:18:06.840 --> 0:18:08.800 even make it. It was like point zero one, you know, 0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:11.040 point when I woke up, it was point zero five. 0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:14.040 You know, you get an hour point zero five. And 0:18:14.160 --> 0:18:16.159 I was like, I cannot get this, but I'm going 0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:18.200 to start my own app because I want to wake 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:22.120 up and see the number one point zero. Eventually, here 0:18:22.160 --> 0:18:24.000 I am today. I had to go through all of 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:27.440 that stuff, all those failed moderation techniques, and again I think, 0:18:27.600 --> 0:18:30.359 I think sobriety is the path of least resistance. It 0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:32.200 gets a little brutal, they'll kind of let the brain, 0:18:32.280 --> 0:18:35.679 the mind, the body, reset the dopamine systems. But I 0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:38.159 feel today is also the wild West of recovery is 0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:42.680 and there's so many more options today to quit drinking 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:45.720 your drug of choice whatever than there were five years ago, 0:18:45.760 --> 0:18:48.120 ten years ago, and definitely twenty or thirty years ago. 0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:50.240 Yeah, so let's talk a little bit about that. You've 0:18:50.280 --> 0:18:52.080 got a line in your book, and I've heard you 0:18:52.119 --> 0:18:54.960 say it on your podcast multiple times, right, there are 0:18:55.119 --> 0:18:59.600 many pathways leading to the same place, So meaning, I 0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:01.280 think what you mean is there's not one way to 0:19:01.320 --> 0:19:03.600 get sober. There's lots of different ways to get sober. 0:19:03.800 --> 0:19:05.120 Share a little bit more about that. 0:19:05.400 --> 0:19:07.760 Yeah, with Recovery Elevator, we believe there's no right or 0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:10.000 wrong way to quit drinking. In fact, I think it's 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:12.680