1 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie, and welcome to stuff. I've never 2 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:10,080 Speaker 1: told you a protection of I heart radios how stuff works. 3 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:24,919 Speaker 1: As I said a past episode ago, time very very 4 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: confused by time. Right now, Um, I am probably in 5 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: Disney World again as this drops. Yes, which I unfortunately 6 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:38,159 Speaker 1: did not realize that. Um, we would be going for 7 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 1: work like barely two months ago. And also at the ride, 8 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 1: the new Star Wars ride will not be open, which 9 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: is one of the whole reasons I wanted to go. 10 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 1: You should be like run in protest with a protest line. 11 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: You think I should run with it. So I'm running 12 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 1: a race. Um well, and that's part of the problem. 13 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 1: Problem is that you have to sign up for those 14 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:05,680 Speaker 1: races way in advance, right, And I think it was 15 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 1: supposed to be open, but it's not. I mean I'm 16 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: not I'm going to Disney. It's gonna be fun, but 17 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 1: there's a part of me that's just gonna be thinking 18 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 1: the ride, the cool ride that will be open like 19 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 1: less than a month from now. Um. But because of that, 20 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: because that is on my mind right now, we wanted 21 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:29,680 Speaker 1: to talk about this classic episode that Kristen Caroline did 22 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:36,679 Speaker 1: around the Women behind Disney. Yes, Um, which is something 23 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:38,959 Speaker 1: when I was a kid, I really wanted, I actually 24 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 1: really want to do special effects specifically, but also animation. UM. 25 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 1: And then I discovered that my drawing capabilities, well they 26 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: were lacking. Yeah, I can't draw. Yeah, the US people 27 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 1: draw penguins. And then people were like, what's that? And 28 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, I can't draw penguins. Apparently, Well, I've 29 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: told the story on era I carved it. I was 30 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 1: supposed to be a horse, but my art teacher thought 31 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 1: it was a polar bear. And so I was like, yes, 32 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 1: a polar bear. And that's not to say, you know, 33 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:16,359 Speaker 1: if your hard work and get you certainly further than 34 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: that level of talent that I displayed or that you displayed. UM. 35 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 1: And also what we're going to talk about are what 36 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 1: what this classic episode is going to look about, look 37 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 1: about look at let's look about um is other aspects 38 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 1: of of animating, because it's more than just drawing and 39 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: UM Disney's army of animation girls. So we hope you 40 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: enjoy this classic episode. Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told 41 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: You from how Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome 42 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:01,920 Speaker 1: to the podcast. I'm christ and I'm Caroline, and we're 43 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 1: talking about women animators at Disney today. And then the 44 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 1: idea happened very much by accident one evening on Twitter, 45 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:16,080 Speaker 1: when I had posted on stuff mom never told you 46 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 1: dot tumbler dot com our Tumbler account this nineteen thirty 47 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: eight rejection letter that has been spread around the internet. 48 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: A lot of you listening have probably seen it. But 49 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:31,639 Speaker 1: it's this form letter that Disney sent out to women 50 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 1: who applied to be animators, basically saying and we'll read 51 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: it verbatim in just a minute, but it basically says, uh, sorry, 52 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 1: women don't do really any of the creative work, so 53 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 1: good luck. Yeah, it was harsh, like if I had 54 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 1: received that letter, I would have been so disheartened. But 55 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 1: soon after I posted it on Tumbler, got a tweet 56 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 1: from a woman who wrote her Masters on animation history, 57 00:03:56,440 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 1: and she pointed out that while yes, this is clearly 58 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: a form letter that Disney actually sent out, there's a 59 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:09,119 Speaker 1: lot of misconceptions about women's roles at Classic Disney, talking 60 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: about back in the day of Bambi, Dumbo, sleeping Beauty, 61 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 1: snow white, and she said that that was pretty much 62 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 1: standard at animation studios in the nineteen thirties period, and 63 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 1: so I decided, hey, you know what, this sounds like 64 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 1: pretty good podcast topic. It's a great podcast topic. I 65 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 1: was definitely interested in reading all about how these women 66 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:36,040 Speaker 1: who were in the industry and the roles they play. 67 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 1: I mean, these women worked so hard, the women who 68 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 1: were actually hired by Disney who loved the idea of 69 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 1: working for Disney. People both men and women who worked 70 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 1: under him were just enamored of the the idea of 71 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 1: even working at Disney or Disney's as they called it, 72 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:56,840 Speaker 1: like it was a department store. Yeah. Uh. And it's 73 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 1: actually good timing that we're talking about this, because not 74 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:04,160 Speaker 1: too long ago, Meryl Streep raised a lot of Hollywood 75 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 1: eyebrows when she was giving this sort of honorary speech 76 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 1: for Emma Thompson in her work in Saving Mr. Banks, 77 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: the recent film about Mary Poppins and Walt Disney, and 78 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 1: you know, Disney kind of made it in a way 79 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: to personify Walt Disney. But in the speech that Meryl 80 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 1: Streep is giving at the National Board of Review Awards ceremony, 81 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: she calls Walt Disney a gender bigot and a lot 82 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 1: of other things that are too kind, and the evidence 83 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: that she uses. Though, to back up this claim is 84 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 1: a quote from Disney animator Ward Kimball, who allegedly said 85 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:49,160 Speaker 1: that Walt Disney quote didn't trust women or cats, right, 86 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:55,280 Speaker 1: And she also cited that thirty rejection letter as her reasoning. Um, 87 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 1: but yeah, Disney's attitude. It's people a lot of people 88 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 1: on the internet, um, both scholarly and not, argue about 89 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: Disney's attitude, attitude towards women. You know, was he this 90 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: gender biggett, as Meryl Streep says, Was he just a 91 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:11,839 Speaker 1: product of his times? You know? Was he just afraid 92 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 1: of losing his workforce to marriage and babies. There's a 93 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 1: whole lot of back and forth about it. So we 94 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 1: also just wanted to take a minute, though, to shine 95 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: a light on all of these women animators who rarely 96 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 1: get any credit for these classic Disney films that were 97 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:30,559 Speaker 1: probably a part of a lot of our childhoods. So 98 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 1: let's start off with that ninety eight Disney rejection letter. 99 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 1: What exactly did it say? So basically, this form letter 100 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 1: was telling the woman who had applied that, Okay, so 101 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:47,359 Speaker 1: you can't, um, you can't be a major animator. Girls 102 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: are not considered for the training school, and then it 103 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: went on to explain that the work that was open 104 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 1: to women specifically consisted of tracing the characters on clear 105 00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: celluloid sheets with India ink and filling in the trace 106 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 1: things on the reverse side with paint according to directions. 107 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 1: So how hard could that be? Right? But when we 108 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 1: were reading this Vanity Fair article about women at Disney 109 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: in the early days, I mean, these are women who 110 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 1: worked hours and hours and hours doing a lot of 111 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: the what was called in between our work, so a 112 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: lot of the movement, a lot of the in between 113 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 1: things between all the big action, showing what Goofy was doing, 114 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 1: or showing what Bambi was doing. And like that Twitter 115 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 1: follower pointed out this was standard policy at animation studios 116 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: at the time, which is a little bit nuts when 117 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: you consider that in the history of animation. It is 118 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: actually a woman named Lotty Rainager who's credited with directing 119 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: one of the first feature length animated films in ninety six, 120 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 1: and it's called The Adventures of Prince Ahmed, and her 121 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 1: animation is incredible. I mean she she actually uses rather 122 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: than drawing everything out as we would think of in 123 00:07:56,600 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 1: a Disney film, she actually cut out still a wets 124 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 1: that she would move around on screen and it was 125 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 1: it was insane what she was doing. And yet in 126 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 1: the nineteen thirties, oh no, no, no, women just know 127 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 1: you stick to tracing and that's it. Right. Yet, it 128 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: is interesting to look at that nine blip on the 129 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 1: overall timeline of animation because okay, well, so obviously women 130 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 1: are involved in this from the get go, and they're 131 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 1: interested in it, and they can do it and they 132 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 1: can do an awesome job at it. But we need 133 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: to give you some context. So let's do a brief 134 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:33,559 Speaker 1: rundown of like a Disney timeline. So the Walt Disney 135 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:36,320 Speaker 1: Company itself was started by brothers Walt and Roy in 136 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 1: nineteen three out in Los Angeles. Two years later Disney 137 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: opens their famous Hyperion Avenue studio location, and back then 138 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 1: it was all dudes as photos from the time a test. 139 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: And two years after that we have the first of 140 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:56,839 Speaker 1: as Kristen pointed out, the Nine Old Men, which were 141 00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 1: basically uh Disney's main animators. Les Clark hired on as 142 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 1: an in between er, and as we said, that's the 143 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 1: people who draw all the stuff that appears between the 144 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: normal action that is drawn by a lead animator, and 145 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 1: in the mascot of all mascots, Mickey Mouse is born. 146 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:18,319 Speaker 1: So fast forward to seven and you have the release 147 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 1: of Disney's first full length animated feature, Snow White and 148 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 1: the Seven Dwarves, and all of the supervising animation is 149 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 1: being done by those nine Old Men. And usually when 150 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:33,839 Speaker 1: you hear about Classic Disney, and you hear about the 151 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 1: animations a lot of times up until recently at least, 152 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 1: it's been the Nine Old Men who deservedly so get 153 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 1: a lot of credit for it. Um inside note the 154 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:47,079 Speaker 1: reason why they were called the Nine Old Men. That 155 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 1: was Walt Disney's joking nickname reference to them, riffing on 156 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 1: how the Supreme Court at the time was referred to, 157 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 1: I think by like FDR or something as the nine 158 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 1: Old Men, because hey, gus was nine in nineties, and 159 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: of course there were no women in the Supreme Court. 160 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 1: Uh So, behind though that production of Snow White in 161 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 1: the Seven Dwarves, you have this almost army of these 162 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 1: women who were referred to as Waltz girls, who were 163 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 1: doing all of that in between our work, all the tracing, 164 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 1: all of the inking, a lot of the coloring and painting, 165 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 1: essentially taking these incredible drawings that the nine old men 166 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 1: would have been making and really bringing them to life 167 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:37,559 Speaker 1: on those celluloids for the screen. Yeah, and I think 168 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 1: it's interesting the description of of why and how all 169 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:43,440 Speaker 1: these women were recruited. I think it's interesting how it 170 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 1: kind of compares to World War Two when we hear 171 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: about women having to enter the workforce because there were 172 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: so many gaps left by men. I mean, obviously it's 173 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 1: not the same thing, but Walt Disney needed such a 174 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: big workforce to animate these these cutting edge knew never 175 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: before seeing types of films that he was like, we've 176 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 1: got to get some labor in here, and so he did. 177 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 1: He began recruiting these animation girls, many of whom had 178 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 1: not gone to college, but they were trained in sort 179 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: of animation classes. They sort of got, you know, trial 180 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 1: by fire when they were hired. And when you look 181 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: at the Disney animation system sort of at large, talking 182 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 1: about training, it was sort of almost like an apprentice 183 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 1: master set up going on um but for the women 184 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:31,200 Speaker 1: where they would get kind of thrown in like, hey, 185 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 1: you look like you're young and healthy and can handle 186 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 1: long hours. Come on board and learn how to ink 187 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 1: and paint and watercolor. They might have gotten classes, but 188 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 1: they wouldn't have gotten the same types of classes that 189 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:43,200 Speaker 1: the men got. And the reason why they were immediately 190 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:47,679 Speaker 1: funneled into ink and paint was because the inking training 191 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 1: was sort of the base level that took half the 192 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 1: time of animation training. And in that Vanity Fair oral 193 00:11:56,040 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 1: history of the women working on Snow White and particular, 194 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 1: some said that, I mean, they would have to bring 195 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:07,560 Speaker 1: in some examples of their artwork, but some of them 196 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:11,839 Speaker 1: said that they were hired simply because they looked healthy, 197 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:14,200 Speaker 1: because Walt knew that it was going to be such 198 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 1: a grueling process that they were going to need to 199 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 1: be able to work insane hours because when you think 200 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:27,080 Speaker 1: about it, this animation process back then was so time consuming. 201 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 1: So for instance, one girl could do eight to ten 202 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 1: cells per hour. That means that one hundred of these 203 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 1: employees could produce about one minute of film every day. 204 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:46,680 Speaker 1: That's how tedious this whole inking and painting process was. Yeah, 205 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 1: and so at the height of Snow White production, because 206 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 1: you have to think, I mean, the context of this 207 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 1: is that Snow White was the first thing of its kind, 208 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:56,960 Speaker 1: the first animated feature that was more than an hour, 209 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:00,160 Speaker 1: and then involved all sorts of techniques that they were 210 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 1: almost developing on the fly. How do we give her 211 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 1: a better blush to her cheeks? Developing different techniques like that, 212 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: and so um. These people, both men and women, were 213 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 1: working eight hour work weeks. There was one woman who 214 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,839 Speaker 1: was describing her life during that time, and she would 215 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 1: go home after a long day, walk into the closet 216 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 1: to take her clothes off, and it would suddenly occur 217 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 1: to her, am I coming or going? Am I getting 218 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:26,440 Speaker 1: dressed for work? Or am I coming home from work? 219 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 1: Sometimes they would just take pillows to work, not only 220 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 1: to soften the hard wooden chair they were sitting in, 221 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 1: but so that they could take naps. Yeah, and just 222 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:35,559 Speaker 1: to give you a sense of what exactly they were doing. 223 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 1: A Disney employment brochure at the time said, all inking 224 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 1: and painting of cellul Lloyd's and all tracing done in 225 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:45,960 Speaker 1: the studio is performed exclusively by a large staff of 226 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 1: girls known as the inkers and painters. This work, exacting 227 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 1: in character, calls for great skill in the handling of 228 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:56,959 Speaker 1: pen and brush, And again it goes on to state, 229 00:13:57,280 --> 00:13:59,679 Speaker 1: this is the only department in the Disney studio open 230 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:03,680 Speaker 1: to women artists, right and one and again another woman 231 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:06,680 Speaker 1: who was interviewed in that Vanity fair piece was talking 232 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 1: about how I did not smoke or drink or bold 233 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 1: during this time because you couldn't have your hands shake. 234 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 1: But you also couldn't have your lovely and glora will 235 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: sweater drifting like pieces of fuzz anywhere. And so the 236 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 1: women started having to wear aprons and so they didn't 237 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 1: get finger smudges on anything. They had to wear these white, 238 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 1: these thin white gloves and just cut off the fingertips 239 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 1: of their drawing hand. So, as reports go from the time, 240 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 1: if you were to just wander into the inking and 241 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 1: painting section, you would be like, wow, look at all 242 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 1: these high class dames working with their pin and ink. 243 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 1: And it's because though there were so many very young, 244 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 1: usually well dressed, attractive women in the ink and paint 245 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 1: department that it became known as the Nunnery. Because down 246 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 1: the line, after the release of Snow White and when 247 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: Disney opened it's new, bigger and grander studios, Walt kind 248 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 1: of drew a line basically saying, hey, all you male 249 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 1: animators need to stay out of the Nunnery. There's too 250 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 1: much canoodling going on. Because these women would also talk 251 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 1: about how in the brief breaks that they would get 252 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 1: from these eighty five hour workweeks of inking and painting 253 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 1: and tracing, et cetera, they would all go out onto 254 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: the front lawn and they would sometimes meet up secretly 255 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 1: with their animator bows underneath trees and they I don't 256 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 1: know if they'd smooch or not. That's unscandalous for the time. Yeah, 257 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 1: the one one guy described it as being like high school, 258 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 1: where you would go out and a lot of There 259 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 1: were a lot of marriages that came out of the 260 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 1: Disney animation department, to the point where a competitor in 261 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 1: their like materials to try to attract employees even said 262 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 1: that like, uh, you know, Disney Disney over there with 263 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 1: all their office romances, they're not getting enough work done 264 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: because they were so famous for having all of these 265 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 1: people get married, which makes sense when you're spending too 266 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 1: many freaking intense hours with people. Well, and then there's 267 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 1: a question too of whether or not Walt Disney took 268 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 1: advantage of the fact that he had dozens upon dozens 269 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: of very young women working for him. And there are 270 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 1: some rumors that, yeah, absolutely, there would have been some canoodling. 271 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: I keep saying canoodling on Walt Disney's couch. But there 272 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 1: were other women who reported back, No, No, we always 273 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 1: thought of him as Uncle Walt. He was very professional. 274 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 1: We never would have crossed that line. Well, he married 275 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 1: an animator, I mean he married one of the one 276 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 1: of the girls quote unquote from the early days, back 277 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 1: when like everybody was like cheers, everybody knew your name. 278 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: And while Disney, though definitely has his controversies involving his 279 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 1: thoughts on race, gender, etcetera, there are some quotes that 280 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 1: are typically trotted out in defense of his position on women. 281 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 1: So you know, we have to we have to mention 282 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 1: this one. He said, if a woman can do the work, well, 283 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:05,160 Speaker 1: she's worth as much as a man. The girl artists 284 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 1: have the right to expect the same chances for advancement 285 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 1: as men, and I honestly believe they may eventually, thank you, 286 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 1: contribute something to this business that men never could or would. 287 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 1: And this he was apparently saying to the male artists 288 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:24,400 Speaker 1: working on Dumbo. And many years later, in nineteen fifty nine, 289 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,680 Speaker 1: Walt was quoted as saying that women are the best 290 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 1: judges of anything. We turn out. Their taste is very important. 291 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:33,359 Speaker 1: They are the theatergoers, They're the ones who dragged them 292 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 1: in in if the women like it, to heck with 293 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:39,880 Speaker 1: the men, which sounds like you know, advertising strategy, baseline 294 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:42,879 Speaker 1: advertising strategy today where people are like, if you target 295 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:45,160 Speaker 1: the women who are control of the pocketbooks at home, 296 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 1: then the men will follow exactly. And that's what those 297 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: two quotes are. You know, a couple of reasons why 298 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 1: when Meryl Street made the comment about him being a 299 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: gender bigot, they took offense saying, well, no, he actually 300 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 1: was on record is saying that, you know, women could 301 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 1: be anything that they wanted to be in Disney, but 302 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: breaking through the celluloid ceiling was no joke. I mean, 303 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:10,880 Speaker 1: you can say that it's a product of his time, 304 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:13,400 Speaker 1: but nevertheless, it's still kind of on the mark that 305 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 1: there was a specific role that they were allowed to do, 306 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:20,119 Speaker 1: and it was it was kind of limited to that point. 307 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:23,880 Speaker 1: But it seems like once he saw the work that 308 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,679 Speaker 1: these women were doing and he spotted some of the 309 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 1: talent among them, there were a few emphasis on a 310 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:38,920 Speaker 1: few opportunities for advancement, particularly when World War two happens because, 311 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:43,159 Speaker 1: just like in pretty much all other realms of employment 312 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:46,399 Speaker 1: in the US, a bunch of men leave and that 313 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 1: opens up jobs for women. And so in in fact, 314 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 1: the inc and Paint department employees were invited to submit 315 00:18:54,440 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 1: Donald Duck drawings for an animation department consideration, and of 316 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 1: that three women were chosen to be trained as in 317 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:06,399 Speaker 1: between ers and background artists during World War Two, and 318 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:08,919 Speaker 1: there were a number of other women too who had 319 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:12,679 Speaker 1: been working, for instance, on Snow White, who were put 320 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 1: on government funded Disney jobs. There was a lot of 321 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 1: Disney pro us propaganda that was coming out at the time, 322 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:26,160 Speaker 1: and so there were these kind of top secret animation 323 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 1: missions that some of the women interviewed in Vanity Fair 324 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,119 Speaker 1: were involved with, but a lot of it was very 325 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 1: shrouded in secrecy, and half the time they didn't really 326 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 1: know what they were working on. Anyway, Yeah, turned out 327 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 1: to be Donald Duck making fun of Hitler. Yeah, everybody 328 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 1: plays a part, I guess. So before we introduce you 329 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:49,640 Speaker 1: to some of these celluloid shattering ladies who worked at Disney, 330 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 1: let's take a quick break. And so when we left off, 331 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 1: we had a laid the groundwork for what it was 332 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:05,959 Speaker 1: like for women working at Disney in the nineteen thirties 333 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 1: and early nineteen forties, and essentially you were relegated to 334 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:13,640 Speaker 1: the ink and paint department. But there were some notable 335 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 1: names who broke through that celluloid ceiling. Yeah, so we 336 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: have Bianca Majolie, who was Walt Disney's story departments first 337 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 1: female employee. She came up with the idea for Elmer Elephant, 338 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 1: which was sort of the precursor to Dumbo that was 339 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:38,120 Speaker 1: back in nineteen thirty six, and it's sort of credited 340 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:40,919 Speaker 1: as I mean, Walt Disney was totally enamored with the 341 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 1: idea of talking about how her story, all the humor 342 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 1: of her story was really grounded in this heartwarming, kind 343 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 1: of almost serious story, and that's what made the humor 344 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: not seem brittle or fragile, but actually heartwarming. Really Yeah, yeah, 345 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 1: and uh. In addition to the incon paint department, the 346 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:06,119 Speaker 1: story department was another one where, even though it didn't 347 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:10,879 Speaker 1: say so in the Disney brochure, there were more opportunities 348 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:14,879 Speaker 1: for women to jump on board because what was surprise 349 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:20,359 Speaker 1: kind of at Bianca's idea to humanize this elephant. It 350 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:24,400 Speaker 1: was like an angle of storytelling that seemed particularly female 351 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: to him, like, oh, well, of course a woman will 352 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 1: go in and, you know, and and make something very 353 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 1: very tender and kind, and so that's that's a nice 354 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 1: element to add to these stories that we're trying to tell. Um. 355 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:39,720 Speaker 1: But then there's also Sylvia Moberley Holland, who first was 356 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:42,679 Speaker 1: working as a sketch artist at Universal and then joined 357 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:46,119 Speaker 1: on at Disney in Night, and she eventually led the 358 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 1: story team for the Waltz of the Flowers in Fantasia, 359 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:53,359 Speaker 1: And that was something that was interesting for me to 360 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 1: learn that I didn't realize about the animation process. Is 361 00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:02,440 Speaker 1: that a lot of unlike a film with people in it, 362 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:06,160 Speaker 1: where you have this actress playing the role of this 363 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: throughout the film. When it comes to animation, the animators 364 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 1: are credited with, you know, maybe specific characters, but also 365 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:17,439 Speaker 1: just sequences in the film. It's not like you have 366 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:21,960 Speaker 1: one person doing one major thing throughout the entire movie. 367 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 1: So it might not sound like a big deal that 368 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 1: Mobilely Holland just led the story team for this Waltz 369 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 1: of the Flowers, but that was very significant. I mean, 370 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 1: Phantasia was a massive undertaking for them as well absolutely, 371 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 1: I mean it is pretty intense. I mean Fantasia might 372 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 1: have Moda scared me as a kid. I did not 373 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 1: get Fantasia as a child. I was like, this is 374 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 1: if I had known what trippy meant. I was thinking, 375 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: this is really trippy, like Mommy is a bad dream. Okay, 376 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:54,679 Speaker 1: Well then you have Redda Scott who I think, um, 377 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 1: I like. I like her her pluck, I guess because 378 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,679 Speaker 1: she was assumed to be She's very tiny, tiny person, blonde, 379 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 1: curly hair, freckles, very happy with a glint in her eye. 380 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,879 Speaker 1: People said she was the one who was responsible for 381 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 1: the scary, vicious hunting dogs in Bamby. And when some 382 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:17,920 Speaker 1: of the dude animators saw these dogs, they were like, 383 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:20,880 Speaker 1: there's no way it. Chick did this, Like I'm sure 384 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:24,160 Speaker 1: it was some burly man over the animation department. Nope, 385 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 1: it was smiley little Retta. Yeah. And it was those 386 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 1: hunting dogs that got their attention and eventually got her 387 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 1: the promotion into animation because she was first hired on 388 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 1: with Disney again in the story department in Night, but 389 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 1: in Bamby, she became Disney's first credited female animator on 390 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 1: a feature film, and so whenever you hear about women 391 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,360 Speaker 1: at Disney, the history of women in animation at Disney, 392 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 1: Redda Scott comes up over and over again. I mean, 393 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: she is the one that you hear really breaking through 394 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 1: that celluloid feeling because she was up there with, I mean, 395 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:07,399 Speaker 1: alongside those nine old men animating, not just doing the 396 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 1: in between work, not just doing the inking and painting. 397 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 1: So we also have Mary Blair, who, along with her 398 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 1: husband Lee, worked at Disney. She started in nineteen forty 399 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:21,639 Speaker 1: and did some art for Dumbo and then moved on 400 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 1: to serving as art supervisor and color stylist for the 401 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:29,880 Speaker 1: film's Salutos Amigos, The Three Caballeros, Cinderella, Alice in Wonderland, 402 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 1: and Peter Pan. Yeah. I mean Mary Blair, probably of 403 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 1: all the women of this time and I mean and 404 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 1: even up to contemporary Disney, has been one of, if 405 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 1: not the most influential because it was really her art 406 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 1: aesthetic that put Disney like, gave Disney animation a little 407 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 1: bit more of a modernist flair. And through September, the 408 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:58,200 Speaker 1: Walt Disney Museum is honoring her with an exhibit called 409 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 1: Magic Color Flair. The World of Mary Blair and the 410 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 1: Museum explains that quote of all his artists, this female 411 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:07,879 Speaker 1: artist was Walt's favorite, and he allowed her to have 412 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 1: as significant an impact on postwar Disney style as Albert 413 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,399 Speaker 1: heard her had in the nineteen thirties, and they go 414 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 1: on to talk about how her concept paintings inspired and 415 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 1: influenced the look and style of all of the South 416 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 1: American film She had actually traveled to South America with 417 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,920 Speaker 1: Walt Um as part of sort of a propaganda mission 418 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:34,880 Speaker 1: via FDR's Good Neighbor Policy UM. So it was sort 419 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 1: of like visual sourcing to go down there, and so 420 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 1: that influenced the movies like Slutos Amigos and The Three 421 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:44,639 Speaker 1: Caballeros um. But it was also her aesthetic that she 422 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 1: brought into Cinderella. Alison wonder Land and Peter Panaman think 423 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 1: about those movies, how distinctive they look, and that is 424 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,360 Speaker 1: Mary Blair. And isn't she the one who Walt made 425 00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:01,200 Speaker 1: the comment about Mary knows colors that I've never even 426 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 1: thought of, Like she she has a different eye from 427 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 1: the rest of us. And it was that same aesthetic 428 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,680 Speaker 1: that ended up influencing Say what you will about this, 429 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,360 Speaker 1: but it's a small world for the nine sixty five 430 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 1: New York's World Fair. I'm sorry. I know the song 431 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: isn't everyone's head now, but when you think about Disney attractions, 432 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 1: even though yes, that song is oh god, yeah, and 433 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,679 Speaker 1: it is now in my head, um, but as an attraction, 434 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 1: it's almost timeless, like we still associate it so much 435 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,119 Speaker 1: with Disney, although I don't know, maybe it's all Pirates 436 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 1: of the Caribbean now, yeah, I I would have no idea. 437 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,200 Speaker 1: I don't like crowds, and I don't like sticky things, 438 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,480 Speaker 1: and I feel like everything at theme parks is sticky, 439 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 1: too much juice and cotton candy. But okay, so we 440 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:54,160 Speaker 1: are talking a lot about Disney, and I think we 441 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 1: we can move forward now into the modern day animation 442 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: landscape bea US. I feel like it's getting better, even 443 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 1: though there still is a huge gender gap and kind 444 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 1: of a gap in a perception about what women can do. Yeah. 445 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 1: One of the most challenging aspects of this podcast topic 446 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 1: was that finding sources on women and animation were surprisingly sparse, 447 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 1: even though if you look at cal Arts, which is 448 00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:27,679 Speaker 1: the premier animation school in the US, like, if you 449 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:29,639 Speaker 1: want to be an animator, you go to CAL arts 450 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 1: and the animation students are you know, as fifty women 451 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,639 Speaker 1: men and yet if you look at the Animation Guild 452 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: only of its members are female. But that might have 453 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 1: something to do with women, at least according to Linda Semenski, 454 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:50,680 Speaker 1: who was Cartoon Networks VP of Original Animation. According to her, 455 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:57,440 Speaker 1: women are likelier to pursue independent rather than big studio animation. Yeah, 456 00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 1: and I mean part of that, if I had to guess, 457 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 1: would have to do with the fact that a lot 458 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:05,239 Speaker 1: of women traditionally haven't been in the higher ranks of 459 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,119 Speaker 1: animation studios from the get go, as we've seen. And 460 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 1: so when you have a setup like that in any industry, 461 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 1: I feel like people who are generally marginalized are more 462 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 1: likely to go sort of that independent kokie creative route. Yeah. 463 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,200 Speaker 1: And before I forget, I just want to mention that 464 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 1: I was listening to one of my favorite podcasts recently, 465 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 1: Professor blast Off, and they were interviewing animator Sarah Pocock, 466 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 1: who if you are a fan of Cosmos hosted by 467 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 1: Neil de grass Tyson, she does all of the animation 468 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 1: for that and I thought of her when I was 469 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:46,959 Speaker 1: looking at the animation from the episode of Cosmos in 470 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 1: which he highlights, you know, unsung women in science, and 471 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 1: I thought of Sarah Pocock and the fact that this 472 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 1: was a woman in animation doing these animations about unsung women, 473 00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 1: and how you know, it was just kind of all time. 474 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 1: Then your headaches floated with joy into the cosmos. Yes, 475 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 1: it is true. Um. But Marge Dean, who's the co 476 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 1: president of Women in Animation, was recently talking about this 477 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 1: issue in two thousand thirteen and and the question was, 478 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 1: you know, is their gender gap in animation? Is there 479 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 1: a lack of women at the top, And she basically said, yes, 480 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 1: absolutely there is. And the reason she gave for it 481 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 1: is she says, I think it comes partly from cultural 482 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,800 Speaker 1: assumptions that have been passed down that think women are 483 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: not creative, smart or funny, or because women aren't encouraged 484 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 1: to take the artistic lead. Or maybe it's because the 485 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 1: folks in charge don't try to find women to fill 486 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 1: creative roles. It's not a priority for them to rectify 487 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,479 Speaker 1: the imbalance. It's any and all of those things. So 488 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 1: it sounds like we still have a lot of nineteen 489 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 1: thirties Disney mentality still afloat in the industry, but there's 490 00:29:56,160 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 1: definitely progress being made despite hiccu, like the two thousand 491 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 1: eleven incident with Brenda Chapman and the movie Brave. Right, 492 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 1: so we all know Brave with the amazing redheaded lead 493 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 1: character Merita Um. But yeah, Brenda Chapman was the first 494 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:19,080 Speaker 1: woman to serve as head of story on a Disney film, 495 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 1: which was The Lion King, and she spent eight years 496 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,720 Speaker 1: at DreamWorks Animation, where she was one of three directors 497 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 1: on the Prince of Egypt before moving to Pixar. But 498 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 1: when she was working on Brave, she ended up getting 499 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 1: fired from directing it, and which is kind of a 500 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 1: bummer considering that Brave was an idea that she had 501 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 1: been working on for about six years and it was 502 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 1: inspired by her daughter, so it seemed like a very 503 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 1: personal project. Maybe it was so personal that it got 504 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 1: in the way of the work, who knows, But her 505 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 1: getting pushed off to the side definitely cause sparked a 506 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 1: lot of conversation about the state of women and animation 507 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 1: in Big Hollywood, even though she still received a co 508 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:05,760 Speaker 1: directing credit. So when they got the Oscar, she also 509 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 1: got an Oscar. But it certainly you know it didn't 510 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 1: make animation or Pixar particularly look any better because Pixar 511 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,959 Speaker 1: had also gotten some flak for it's under representation of 512 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 1: just strong female characters in general on screen, and also 513 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,720 Speaker 1: the roles of women behind the camera as well. Yeah, 514 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 1: we'll speaking more about Pixar. The same thing happened to 515 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 1: Jan Pinkava, who was directing Rattatui, which came out in 516 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 1: two thousand and seven before Brad Bird came in and 517 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 1: took it over and ended up winning an Oscar. Yeah, 518 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:37,719 Speaker 1: I didn't know that about Rattatui, and I love that 519 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 1: film and it's very cute, a little a little bit 520 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 1: of a bummer, but as I mean, another reason why 521 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:47,280 Speaker 1: we are talking about women in animation right now is 522 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 1: because Jennifer Lee, who directed Frozen, is getting so much 523 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 1: press right now because Frozen is now the first movie 524 00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 1: animated or not directed by a woman to earn one 525 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 1: billion dollars. So essentially everybody's saying, hey, look, Jennifer Lee 526 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 1: did it with Frozen of film that is starring like 527 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 1: two female protagonists, starring as though they're real women. Um, 528 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 1: but although I'm sure they are very real to a 529 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 1: lot of girls who watched the film. But essentially they're 530 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 1: they're saying that, hey, okay, Jennifer Lee can do this 531 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,720 Speaker 1: then and and make a billion with a B dollars 532 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 1: off this movie, then the sky can be the limit 533 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 1: surely for women in animation. And she's also not the 534 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:39,200 Speaker 1: first woman to make her mark in terms of box 535 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 1: office returns on an animated film. That's right. Back in eleven, 536 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 1: Jennifer you Nelson was in charge of Kung Fu Panda two, which, 537 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 1: after making six hundred forty five million dollars worldwide, was 538 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 1: until Jennifer Lee came along, the highest grossing movie to 539 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,680 Speaker 1: be directed by a woman, and in an interview, Nelson 540 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:05,880 Speaker 1: was talking about how like, yeah, I'm a woman in animation. 541 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 1: I just puttered along doing my thing, and I didn't 542 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 1: really pay any heed to the gender imbalanced thing. Yeah, 543 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 1: and at the time too, she also became the first 544 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 1: woman to ever direct an animated feature for a major 545 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:23,400 Speaker 1: studio by herself, So unlike, for instance, Chapman co directing 546 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,960 Speaker 1: Prince of Egypt, this was Jennifer you Nelson on her own, 547 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 1: and she had worked on Kung Fu Panda one Part 548 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 1: one and the head of DreamWorks, Jeffrey Katzenberg actually hand 549 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 1: picked her out of that crew to lead up Kung 550 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 1: Fu Panda too, because apparently Katzenberg loves quote working with 551 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:47,640 Speaker 1: strong women like he is all about having women at 552 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:50,720 Speaker 1: the top in DreamWorks Animation. It's sort of um. He 553 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 1: actually called out Disney in a quote to The Hollywood 554 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:58,400 Speaker 1: Reporter on a story about how eight ferent of DreamWorks 555 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,080 Speaker 1: animation producers or women in and a lot of their 556 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 1: sea level leadership also women. He said, historically the animation 557 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:10,279 Speaker 1: industry was completely dominated by men, Disney, the Nine Old Men. 558 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,200 Speaker 1: It was a male world until recently the whole field 559 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 1: of engineering software technology was also dominated by men. It's changing, 560 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,280 Speaker 1: and it's changing rapidly, especially at our place, where almost 561 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 1: every director of our films as a woman, and all 562 00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:27,200 Speaker 1: the female directors directed at dream Works. Oh and excuse me, 563 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,960 Speaker 1: that was him talking to the l a times. Nonetheless, 564 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:35,320 Speaker 1: a pretty incredible quote to hear from someone at that level, 565 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,680 Speaker 1: basically calling out Disney and the Nine Old Men and saying, hey, 566 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 1: you know what I'm doing a little differently, and then 567 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:45,120 Speaker 1: he drops the mic for the inking pen. But I wonder, though, 568 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:49,000 Speaker 1: whether the environment for women working at Disney is different 569 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:52,440 Speaker 1: than women working at DreamWorks. Whether that trickles down to 570 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:56,400 Speaker 1: the day to day process at all, I couldn't find. 571 00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:59,640 Speaker 1: And maybe it's just because Disney, I'm sure, is very 572 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:03,680 Speaker 1: good with their communications and sort of their their message 573 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 1: public messaging about what it's like to work inside the company. 574 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:14,040 Speaker 1: I didn't find any insider reports on how much the 575 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 1: company had progressed from the days when women would have 576 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:20,680 Speaker 1: been relegated to the nunnery of ink and paint, Whether 577 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 1: they're are, whether they are a lot more gender blind 578 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 1: than they used to be. I'm sure they are at 579 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:32,520 Speaker 1: least somewhat. It has to be somewhat better. Yeah, but um, 580 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 1: you know, I know we should never read the comments ever, 581 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:38,200 Speaker 1: but I was reading the comments under some of these 582 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 1: stories about women in animation today and there were a 583 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 1: lot of people who were saying, like, what is so 584 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:48,520 Speaker 1: important about the push to get women animators up in 585 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,800 Speaker 1: front of young girls? Like who cares? And I'm like, really, 586 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:54,920 Speaker 1: I feel like you you know how to answer this 587 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:58,040 Speaker 1: question if you think about it, and it's it's going 588 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:02,640 Speaker 1: to take people like Jeffrey Atsenburg and like high powered, 589 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,520 Speaker 1: top tier directors like Jennifer you Nelson getting up in 590 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:09,080 Speaker 1: front of people being successful, being famous and doing it 591 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,480 Speaker 1: to show girls that they can do it too. But 592 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:16,480 Speaker 1: also more importantly or not than that, is showing people 593 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 1: who are in the box office, who are in charge 594 00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:21,640 Speaker 1: of raking in the dough from all of these films, 595 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 1: that women can successfully make a high grossing movie. Yeah. 596 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,040 Speaker 1: I mean it's money that matters. Yeah, it's money that matters. 597 00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:33,240 Speaker 1: And and it just seems like Jeffrey Catsenberg is willing 598 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,880 Speaker 1: to put his money where his mouth is. Yeah. And 599 00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:38,560 Speaker 1: I mean even going back though to those early days 600 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:41,840 Speaker 1: of Disney with snow White. You mentioned earlier in the 601 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:47,480 Speaker 1: podcast the blush coloring on snow White's rosy cheeks. That 602 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:52,600 Speaker 1: was the little brain child of one of the women 603 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:56,320 Speaker 1: in InCom Paint, I believe, who said, Oh, she looks 604 00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 1: so pale. She needs a little bit of blushing her cheeks. 605 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 1: Sounds like my mother. You look so pale, you need 606 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:06,120 Speaker 1: blush her you needs she needs a little bit of blusher. 607 00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,640 Speaker 1: But that's why, in a way, to diversity is a 608 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:13,480 Speaker 1: good thing, because you bring in different perspectives and hopefully 609 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:17,040 Speaker 1: offer a better rounded story for your audience. That is 610 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:20,800 Speaker 1: a noble goal, as is a good flush on the cheeks. Exactly. 611 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:22,359 Speaker 1: You need a good flush on because that's hey, that's 612 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:24,399 Speaker 1: how people got hired at Disney back in the day. 613 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:26,960 Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean, and and if anything, I hope 614 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:30,200 Speaker 1: that we've done our part a little bit to shine 615 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:35,279 Speaker 1: some light on those women, so many of them who 616 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 1: helped bring those early Disney stories to life, because it's 617 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:44,839 Speaker 1: such a massive undertaking. And while yeah, the nine old men, 618 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:49,040 Speaker 1: what did a cool cracker jack group of men, but 619 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,280 Speaker 1: there were you know, a hundred women behind them, inking 620 00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:56,160 Speaker 1: and filling in and tracing and painting and hoping that 621 00:37:56,200 --> 00:38:00,399 Speaker 1: they're Angora sweater fluff didn't get on any of the cells, right, 622 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:04,120 Speaker 1: which that did? Yeah, I mean, that happened. So now, 623 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:07,200 Speaker 1: I'm sure there are some Disney buffs listening who have 624 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:09,440 Speaker 1: a lot of history to fill us in on, because this, 625 00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:12,880 Speaker 1: by no means was a history of Disney, nor was 626 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:16,520 Speaker 1: it intended to be. But if you have some pertinent 627 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:20,200 Speaker 1: Disney insights to give us who want to hear from you. Also, 628 00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:23,000 Speaker 1: women animators listening, I know there are some of you 629 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,960 Speaker 1: out there who are listening right now, let us know 630 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,520 Speaker 1: what it's like for you. Is there still this uh, 631 00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:33,080 Speaker 1: do you sense a gender gap at all? In the profession. 632 00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:35,440 Speaker 1: Mom Stuff at Discovery dot Com is where you can 633 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,200 Speaker 1: email us. You can also tweet us at mom Stuff 634 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:41,439 Speaker 1: podcast or messages on Facebook, and we've got a couple 635 00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:52,080 Speaker 1: of messages to share with you right now. So I 636 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:56,520 Speaker 1: gotta let her hear from Amy about our military spouses episode. 637 00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,239 Speaker 1: She writes, I'm a huge fan of the podcast and 638 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:01,800 Speaker 1: as an army y of three years, your latest episode 639 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:06,120 Speaker 1: about military spouses was particularly interesting. You nailed it when 640 00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:10,120 Speaker 1: discussing spouses being un or under employed. When I got 641 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:12,319 Speaker 1: my teaching degree, I never thought that finding a job 642 00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,239 Speaker 1: would be an issue because everybody needs teachers, right But 643 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:17,880 Speaker 1: after moving to our latest post, it's been a struggle. 644 00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:20,040 Speaker 1: I actually found a job that I love, working for 645 00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:22,600 Speaker 1: a university, but it's only part time and offers no 646 00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:25,319 Speaker 1: room for growth. So I'm still sending out resumes and 647 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:27,560 Speaker 1: going on interviews hoping to find a job as a teacher, 648 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:31,320 Speaker 1: even though the job market is hyper saturated. Here. Also, 649 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:33,520 Speaker 1: I wanted to add that I'm thankful you included information 650 00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:37,279 Speaker 1: about reintegration the time after deployment when soldiers return home. 651 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:41,120 Speaker 1: After my husband's first deployment, we really struggled. Everyone else 652 00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:43,600 Speaker 1: sees the joyful tears of a homecoming and think it's 653 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,560 Speaker 1: happily ever after for those in the marriage. That happy 654 00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:49,360 Speaker 1: ever after takes a lot of work. We had vastly 655 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:52,480 Speaker 1: different life experiences and learning to just be took time. 656 00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,399 Speaker 1: Throw in two moves in less than a year, time 657 00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:58,759 Speaker 1: apart for field training, in schools and the usual unpredictable 658 00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:01,839 Speaker 1: challenges of life, and it was ugly. We finally got 659 00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:03,960 Speaker 1: into a rhythm and my husband was sent back to 660 00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:07,080 Speaker 1: Afghanistan in February of this year. The upside is that 661 00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:08,839 Speaker 1: when he comes home this time, I'll have a better 662 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:11,759 Speaker 1: idea of what to expect. Thanks so much for delicately 663 00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:15,480 Speaker 1: handling a potentially loaded topic. This episode was chock full 664 00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:19,319 Speaker 1: of good stuff and really respectful. So thanks Amy, and 665 00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:22,719 Speaker 1: good luck with your husband's deployment. Best wishes for his 666 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:25,480 Speaker 1: safe return home. And I have a letter here from 667 00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:29,080 Speaker 1: Anne who says I was a military spouse down in 668 00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:32,480 Speaker 1: Fort Stuart, Georgia for about twelve years. My husband got 669 00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:34,840 Speaker 1: out of the military and we moved back to South Dakota. 670 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:38,120 Speaker 1: We have had to deal with numerous deployments overseas, three 671 00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:41,760 Speaker 1: times to Iraq and twice to Afghanistan. Just about everything 672 00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,160 Speaker 1: you spoke about rang true to me. I also had 673 00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:46,520 Speaker 1: to deal with alienation from many of the spouses as 674 00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:48,319 Speaker 1: well because I was one of the few who had 675 00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:51,600 Speaker 1: no children. Most activities are centered around the children, so 676 00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:53,440 Speaker 1: when you don't have any, you don't get invited to 677 00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:56,120 Speaker 1: anything except for maybe once or twice a year. The 678 00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:58,720 Speaker 1: rules were that everyone was supposed to be included in things, 679 00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,760 Speaker 1: but this rarely happened. The health care benefits and financial 680 00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:05,080 Speaker 1: aid in the military were extremely helpful many times, especially 681 00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:07,160 Speaker 1: for a newlywed couple just starting out on their own. 682 00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:10,800 Speaker 1: It could provide stability, learning, responsibility, and independence from family. 683 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:13,680 Speaker 1: For those things I was grateful. Due to the constant 684 00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:16,120 Speaker 1: danger of him being deployed kept me from wanting to 685 00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:18,919 Speaker 1: have children in case anything happened. I lost a parent 686 00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:20,719 Speaker 1: at a young age and didn't wish for my child 687 00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:23,400 Speaker 1: to go through that. Luckily, we got through everything and 688 00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:25,800 Speaker 1: he is safe and we are expecting our first child, 689 00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,640 Speaker 1: a daughter, in August. One of the things that got 690 00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:31,320 Speaker 1: me through the last few deployments was the numerous podcasts 691 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:33,400 Speaker 1: at how staff Works. Thank you, guys, all of you 692 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:35,920 Speaker 1: so much for helping keep my mind busy and from 693 00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:39,040 Speaker 1: stressing out too much, So thank you and and I'm 694 00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:43,160 Speaker 1: glad you guys are doing well, and congratulations on your baby, 695 00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:46,040 Speaker 1: and thanks to everybody who's written into us. Mom Stuff 696 00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:48,480 Speaker 1: at Discovery dot com is our email address, and to 697 00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:52,320 Speaker 1: find links to all of our social media's, videos, podcasts, 698 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:54,840 Speaker 1: and blogs, there's one place to go, and it's stuff 699 00:41:54,880 --> 00:42:00,320 Speaker 1: Mom Never Told You dot com. For are on this 700 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,120 Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics, visit how Stuff Works dot 701 00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:11,600 Speaker 1: com