WEBVTT - A Dispassionate Review of Roe v Wade 0:00:01.440 --> 0:00:04.240 Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of I 0:00:04.360 --> 0:00:13.280 Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:15.840 and there's Chuck and Jerry's here too, but she's hiding 0:00:15.880 --> 0:00:19.480 behind us, and this is stuff you should know. That's right. 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:23.600 I think I have already titled this episode a dispassionate 0:00:23.640 --> 0:00:29.200 look at Roe v. Wade. Yeah, akin to our episode 0:00:29.200 --> 0:00:35.760 on kissing or roller coasters? Right, roller coasters is pretty appropriate, Yeah, 0:00:35.760 --> 0:00:38.199 for sure, because it's been a heck of a ride 0:00:38.240 --> 0:00:42.680 since h That's right. So, uh, just so folks know, 0:00:42.760 --> 0:00:44.920 we're gonna just sort of take a look at the case, 0:00:45.040 --> 0:00:50.080 the original case itself, and this idea was hatched, um 0:00:50.200 --> 0:00:53.320 quite a few weeks ago, and obviously we kind of 0:00:53.320 --> 0:00:56.920 sped that process along and we'll talk about that towards 0:00:56.920 --> 0:01:01.080 the end. Okay, cool, that sound good. We're doing this 0:01:01.120 --> 0:01:03.800 episode apropos of nothing at all. We just decided to 0:01:03.840 --> 0:01:07.320 try to do it finally, right, So, um, we're talking 0:01:07.360 --> 0:01:09.920 about Roe v. Wade. It's a Supreme Court case again 0:01:09.959 --> 0:01:13.440 from nineteen seventy three. I think it was um published 0:01:13.480 --> 0:01:16.679 at the very beginning of nineteen seventy three, and it 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:20.680 basically said, um, all you states which at the time. 0:01:20.720 --> 0:01:23.440 Most of the states in the late sixties early seventies 0:01:23.520 --> 0:01:27.160 had bands on abortion, some of them almost total. Uh. 0:01:27.280 --> 0:01:30.440 The Supreme Court said, all those laws are unconstitutional. We 0:01:30.520 --> 0:01:34.680 have to re refigure this. And it was the culpination 0:01:34.760 --> 0:01:37.360 of like um, a whole process, a whole bunch of 0:01:37.400 --> 0:01:39.360 lawsuits were kind of file at the same time about 0:01:39.360 --> 0:01:43.199 the same thing. UM. But it was in no way 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:46.800 shape or formed less sweeping because you know, it was 0:01:46.880 --> 0:01:48.880 kind of in the zeitgeist. It's what people were talking about. 0:01:48.920 --> 0:01:51.160 I think it took I read it took both sides 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:55.400 of the abortion issue by surprise. It was that kind 0:01:55.440 --> 0:01:58.960 of sweeping and that much of a complete course reversal 0:01:59.000 --> 0:02:01.840 for the United States as far as how we approached 0:02:01.840 --> 0:02:05.400 abortion goes right. It's a good way to say it. 0:02:06.120 --> 0:02:10.360 Abortion is nothing, and we'll probably do I mean, but 0:02:10.360 --> 0:02:12.160 I think we've long wanted to do just a full 0:02:12.200 --> 0:02:14.880 episode on abortion, and so we'll probably work that one 0:02:14.880 --> 0:02:17.679 in at some point in the near future. But abortion 0:02:17.720 --> 0:02:21.600 has always been around. Uh, It's usually always been regulated 0:02:21.720 --> 0:02:25.959 in some form or another. UM, usually in what we'll 0:02:26.000 --> 0:02:28.120 call the third trimester. But we'll get to that stuff 0:02:28.200 --> 0:02:32.080 later as well, or later in this episode UM. But 0:02:32.280 --> 0:02:36.120 in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, there were no federal 0:02:36.400 --> 0:02:38.920 laws on the books, and it was left to states 0:02:39.480 --> 0:02:43.000 to kind of come up with their own interpretations of 0:02:43.240 --> 0:02:46.840 UH what was kind of usually originally based on English 0:02:46.919 --> 0:02:50.560 common law. And beginning in the eighteen hundreds is when 0:02:51.240 --> 0:02:54.640 a lot of the states started really restricting or outright 0:02:54.720 --> 0:02:59.320 banning abortion. And I believe in the nineteen sixties there 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:02.440 were not these states left at all UH that didn't 0:03:02.480 --> 0:03:06.360 have bands or restrictions on abortion. Yeah, And the nineteenth 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:10.400 century UM was kind of a pivotal point for UM 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:13.480 the concept of abortion in the United States for a 0:03:13.480 --> 0:03:16.240 couple of reasons. There's a historian named Leslie Jay Reagan 0:03:16.919 --> 0:03:19.800 who wrote When Abortion was a Crime UM, And she 0:03:19.880 --> 0:03:23.040 wrote that in eighteen fifty seven, the American Medical Association, 0:03:23.040 --> 0:03:26.079 which had just been founded, basically said, Hey, we need 0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:29.680 to start a campaign to outlaw abortion in part, UH, 0:03:29.960 --> 0:03:35.080 historians say, to help wrestle UM control of women's health 0:03:35.240 --> 0:03:39.320 away from midwives and to help consolidate basically all aspects 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:42.760 of health, including that under doctors. That's one thing that 0:03:42.840 --> 0:03:46.160 people say led to the rise of abortion laws anti 0:03:46.160 --> 0:03:50.240 abortion laws in the United States. And then there's there's 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:53.760 on both sides, there's allegations that some of the earliest 0:03:53.760 --> 0:03:59.880 proponents for for or against abortion UM were racially mo 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:04.920 devated to on the UM. On the the proponent the 0:04:04.960 --> 0:04:08.040 abortion proponent side, they say that some of these earliest 0:04:08.360 --> 0:04:13.720 UM laws were basically white Protestant Americans starting to get 0:04:13.760 --> 0:04:16.320 nervous at all of the immigrants that were coming over 0:04:16.360 --> 0:04:18.359 and saying, we need to step up, you know, the 0:04:18.400 --> 0:04:22.240 birthrate among white Protestant Americans, and UM, one good way 0:04:22.279 --> 0:04:25.160 to do that is the outlaw abortion. And then the 0:04:25.240 --> 0:04:29.640 UM the anti abortion side says, no, no, that may 0:04:29.720 --> 0:04:32.880 or may not be true, but you guys were eugenicists, 0:04:32.960 --> 0:04:35.920 and you actually wanted abortion so that you could control 0:04:36.560 --> 0:04:41.160 UM undesirable meaning non white populations in the United States. 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:43.800 So both sides are slinging mud all the way back, 0:04:43.800 --> 0:04:46.000 starting in the nineteenth century. It just kind of gets 0:04:46.040 --> 0:04:48.479 worse from there. Yeah, and of course you're using that 0:04:48.600 --> 0:04:51.760 terminology because they didn't have terms like pro choice in 0:04:51.880 --> 0:04:54.719 pro life at that point. Yeah, but I also see 0:04:54.960 --> 0:04:59.120 UM it seems to be more UM academic to call 0:04:59.160 --> 0:05:02.360 it pro abortion an anti abortion because pro life is 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:05.320 such a it's such a loaded term. It's like, oh, oh, 0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:08.080 you don't like life. You know, if you're if you're 0:05:08.120 --> 0:05:11.760 if you're pro abortion, do you that doesn't mean that 0:05:11.800 --> 0:05:15.719 you're against life. So I saw a pro abortion and 0:05:15.760 --> 0:05:20.039 anti abortion kind of settling that dispute well, and the 0:05:20.279 --> 0:05:23.560 both sides have also taken those terms and bent them 0:05:23.600 --> 0:05:27.280 to their own will uh in more recent years, by 0:05:27.279 --> 0:05:30.680 saying things like we're not pro abortion, we're pro choice, 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:35.440 and other people saying we're not anti choice, we're pro life, 0:05:35.440 --> 0:05:38.120 and then other people saying you're pro birth, not pro life. 0:05:39.240 --> 0:05:42.840 So it's uh. This sort of leads us into what 0:05:42.880 --> 0:05:46.040 I like to call the central mess of this, the 0:05:46.080 --> 0:05:50.480 whole debate really um and this is as it relates to. 0:05:50.839 --> 0:05:53.800 You know, legally speaking, there is a larger ethical and 0:05:53.960 --> 0:05:57.080 moral debate which you know obviously plays a huge party. 0:05:57.080 --> 0:06:00.240 You can't um remove that, but we're here to talk 0:06:00.279 --> 0:06:04.520 about the legal case. But legally speaking, the all caps 0:06:04.839 --> 0:06:07.200 huge mess, which has always been around and always will 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:14.760 be around, is that nobody, doctors and certainly lawyers and 0:06:14.839 --> 0:06:18.880 justices and judges have never been able to agree on 0:06:19.640 --> 0:06:23.560 what life means and when that starts. And that is 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:25.960 the central crux and the central mess of it all 0:06:26.520 --> 0:06:30.080 that will never get solved and has never been solved 0:06:30.200 --> 0:06:35.159 because it's unsolvable. Um, there is no definition that everyone 0:06:35.200 --> 0:06:39.400 agrees on. And even the justices in the original Roe v. 0:06:39.560 --> 0:06:43.479 Wade case admit to this and say, you know, doctors 0:06:43.480 --> 0:06:46.640 don't agree on this. We certainly can't decide this. So 0:06:46.800 --> 0:06:51.440 that created this, this quagmire and this uh many pronged 0:06:51.520 --> 0:06:56.479 debate um over you know, when is it okay? If 0:06:56.520 --> 0:06:59.599 ever is it a crime? When is it a crime? 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:02.520 How severe is that crime? What about the mother and 0:07:02.560 --> 0:07:05.359 her health? What about the health of a fetus? And 0:07:05.440 --> 0:07:09.120 who decides all this stuff? Yeah, we've I mean despite 0:07:09.160 --> 0:07:12.200 not knowing and maybe not being able to know when 0:07:12.320 --> 0:07:16.240 life actually begins. Um, there have been attempts over the 0:07:16.320 --> 0:07:20.600 years at abortion regulations that kind of try to take 0:07:20.600 --> 0:07:22.680 a stab at it. And one of them was quickening. 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:25.120 I saw this was an early nineteenth century one. And 0:07:25.200 --> 0:07:29.680 quickening is a two for right for yeah, for that 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:31.840 moment when you first see Highlander two in your life 0:07:31.880 --> 0:07:36.760 changes forever for the better. No, it's actually when the 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:40.400 the mother first feels the fetus moving inside of her. 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:43.840 They call that quickening, and it's like a super nineteenth 0:07:43.840 --> 0:07:49.120 century a grarian FARMI um, kind of weird, almost animal term, 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:51.400 but that's that's what they called it. And that's when 0:07:51.440 --> 0:07:54.880 they defined the beginning of life. And that's when they said, okay, 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:58.600 after that, we're regulating abortion after a quickening. That's that 0:07:58.680 --> 0:08:01.720 was the first attempt and that kind of um that 0:08:01.800 --> 0:08:05.160 kind of underscores like the the attempts since since then, 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:08.720 which are basically based on this idea of viability, Like 0:08:08.920 --> 0:08:13.440 if that fetus was removed from the mom what chance 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:16.920 would it have to survive on its own? And if 0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:20.560 the if a doctor consensus of doctors say after about 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:23.120 this time or at about this state or about this 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:27.800 stage and pregnancy of fetus could probably survive on its own. Um, 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:32.000 that has helped kind of define where, uh, where abortion 0:08:32.040 --> 0:08:37.360 regulation begins and ends. That's right. So um, the Supreme 0:08:37.360 --> 0:08:39.960 Court back then in the nineteen seventies grappled with this 0:08:40.600 --> 0:08:43.080 and like I said, they they flat outside. I mean, 0:08:43.080 --> 0:08:45.880 here's the quote. When those trained in the respective disciplines 0:08:45.920 --> 0:08:49.160 of medicine, philosophy, and theology are unable to arrive at 0:08:49.200 --> 0:08:53.240 any consensus as to when life technically begins, the judiciary 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:55.720 at this point in the development of a man's knowledge, 0:08:56.440 --> 0:08:59.640 UM is not in a position to speculate, is to 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:03.839 the end, sir. So they you know, at least the 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:06.680 Supreme Court has flat out said over the years like hey, 0:09:06.840 --> 0:09:10.080 we can't define this UM. That would have made it 0:09:10.080 --> 0:09:12.520 even all the trickier if they weighed in saying, well, 0:09:12.520 --> 0:09:16.160 here's what we think. Right. So the upshot of all 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:18.360 this is, we don't know when life begins, but we 0:09:18.440 --> 0:09:20.199 do know that there are plenty of women out there 0:09:20.200 --> 0:09:23.720 who don't, who get pregnant and don't want to carry 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:25.720 the fetus to full term. They don't want to have 0:09:25.760 --> 0:09:28.920 that child for one reason or another. UM. So the 0:09:29.080 --> 0:09:32.680 government decided that it needed to step in and figure 0:09:32.720 --> 0:09:35.520 out how to balance those two things. They said that 0:09:35.559 --> 0:09:41.560 the state has an invested interest in protecting the life 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:46.560 of the unborn while also protecting the interests of a 0:09:46.640 --> 0:09:50.319 woman's right to choose whether she has a child or not. 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:55.760 And they basically took a bunch of plates, they put 0:09:55.800 --> 0:09:58.360 them on the end of polls, they started spinning them. 0:09:58.440 --> 0:10:01.640 They got on a unicycle and rode out on a 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:06.839 high wire over the Green Canyon. That's right, Yeah, I 0:10:06.880 --> 0:10:08.880 think that's a good time for a break with that 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:13.400 image in people's heads. And we will talk about the 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:15.640 case itself and who Row was and who Wade was 0:10:16.000 --> 0:10:43.560 right after this, all right, So if you're gonna talk 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:46.440 about Roe v. Wade, you gotta talk about Row and Wade. 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:50.320 Um Row. And I think, you know, I'm not sure 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:53.560 that a lot of people have really studied this. They know, 0:10:53.720 --> 0:10:56.640 may know a lot about the case, but um, I 0:10:56.679 --> 0:10:59.880 had never studied it to this degree until we did that, 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:04.160 and it's just good information to have, especially these days. 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:08.080 So Row was Jane Rowe obviously a made up name 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:11.880 like Jane Doe, and they usually do use Jane Doe. 0:11:12.640 --> 0:11:14.880 But when there are a bunch of doughe cases on 0:11:14.880 --> 0:11:17.600 the docket, uh, and especially in this one, there was 0:11:17.640 --> 0:11:21.360 another dough on the docket that had to do with abortion, uh, 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:24.040 Doe v. Bolton, which we'll talk about as well a 0:11:24.080 --> 0:11:26.320 little bit. Uh, they just change it to Row. It's 0:11:26.320 --> 0:11:29.360 that simple. But we do know, and we've known for 0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:33.719 decades now, who Jane Roe really was, and that was 0:11:33.760 --> 0:11:39.400 a woman uh named Norma McCorvey and her twenties in Texas. Yeah, 0:11:39.520 --> 0:11:42.240 so at the time Texas had um one of the 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:47.319 most comprehensive band on abortion. It was basically UM. It said, 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:53.080 if if the fetus is malformed, their words, if the mother, UM, 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:56.000 if the mother's life is in danger, or I think 0:11:56.120 --> 0:12:00.400 if UM, if the what was the last think, if 0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:03.240 if it's the product of a rape. Then those are 0:12:03.280 --> 0:12:06.720 the three different criteria that an abortion could possibly be 0:12:07.240 --> 0:12:11.800 UM carried out, under performed under and UM. That meant 0:12:11.880 --> 0:12:14.840 that since Norman McCorvey didn't didn't fit any of those 0:12:14.880 --> 0:12:18.320 criteria but still didn't want the kid, that she was 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:20.560 looking for an abortion but couldn't get one in Texas. 0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:24.040 She also didn't have very much money UM and so 0:12:24.080 --> 0:12:26.079 she couldn't travel out of state like a lot of 0:12:26.120 --> 0:12:28.880 more well to do women in her situation would have done. 0:12:29.360 --> 0:12:32.439 So she um started to get desperate because I mean, 0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:34.719 I didn't say this, chuck, but she had already had 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:37.760 two kids. This was her third child. She wasn't married 0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:41.040 to the man who UM she had gotten pregnant by, 0:12:41.080 --> 0:12:43.400 and in fact was a lesbian who was in a 0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:46.839 committed relationship I think at the time. So yeah, she 0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:49.160 really did not want to have this kid. Yeah, she 0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:51.960 had given the other two up for adoption just so 0:12:52.040 --> 0:12:55.400 everyone knows. It's not like she had two kids at home. Um, 0:12:55.440 --> 0:12:57.120 she had given the other two up. I think one 0:12:57.120 --> 0:12:59.880 to a family member, I'm not sure about the other one. 0:13:00.400 --> 0:13:02.880 Definitely adopted the second one. The first one was raised 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:07.800 by her parents, right, which is also adoption. But she 0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:10.240 is now in a position where she doesn't want to 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:13.800 have this third one and was put in touch with 0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:19.280 an attorney name Linda Coffee and Coffees partner Sarah Weddington, 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:23.520 two recent law school grads who were who were looking 0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:26.719 for a case like this. And this is where I 0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:29.320 don't know if you've seen the great Alexander Payne movie 0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:35.480 Citizen Ruth, But it's a movie about basically the Roe v. 0:13:35.640 --> 0:13:40.120 Wade Um debate with Laura Dern and it's his first 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:44.000 movie and it's great and it's a great comedic satire. 0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:48.600 But wait what, you haven't seen it. No, it's comedic. 0:13:49.240 --> 0:13:52.160 Oh yeah, it's a it's a Alexander Payne satire. Is 0:13:52.200 --> 0:13:55.000 it a musical comedy? No? No, no, it's just a 0:13:55.080 --> 0:13:59.480 movie basically. You know, Laura Dern is the central figure 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:03.199 who was a drug addict who is pregnant and gets 0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:05.760 co opted by both sides like they both have think 0:14:05.800 --> 0:14:09.120 they have found the golden case to make their case 0:14:09.320 --> 0:14:12.440 and and true Alexander Paine fashion like, you know, both 0:14:12.480 --> 0:14:17.760 sides are played rather satirically and there are no, um, 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:21.520 no winners. Really. Uh that's great one that sounds like 0:14:21.560 --> 0:14:23.960 real life for sure. Yeah, but that that basically is 0:14:24.040 --> 0:14:27.840 what's happened. So she was um you know, later says 0:14:27.960 --> 0:14:32.480 she was kind of co opted and manipulated, which we'll 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:39.080 get into by these two uh women who were her attorneys. Um. 0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:42.360 Later in life she became a born again Christian and 0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:44.400 this is when most of that stuff out about the 0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:48.320 attorney's manipulating her came out and after being pro choice 0:14:48.480 --> 0:14:53.080 for her whole life, was pro life. And then uh 0:14:53.280 --> 0:14:56.680 came out later almost like a deathbed confession, and said, 0:14:56.720 --> 0:14:59.240 you know what they paid me. The quote was it 0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:01.640 was a mutual thing. I took their money. And this 0:15:01.720 --> 0:15:04.560 is to be clear, the uh, the pro life side 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:07.680 paid her uh to reverse course is what she says. 0:15:07.720 --> 0:15:10.000 At least, it was a mutual thing. I took their 0:15:10.000 --> 0:15:12.400 money and they put me in front of the cameras 0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:14.560 told me what to say, and that's what I said. 0:15:14.840 --> 0:15:17.760 I did it well because I was a good actress. Yeah, 0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:20.440 and there's a there's a lot of people who argue 0:15:20.480 --> 0:15:24.480 that she wasn't ever really pro choice either. Um, that 0:15:24.480 --> 0:15:27.560 that she was um and ed helped us with this one. 0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:29.880 That she was basically more of a mercenary who looked 0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:32.240 out for herself. And I've read quotes from her that 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:35.880 basically say as much that she she didn't really care 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:39.440 about this whole huge um case that she was the 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:42.560 center of. She just wanted an abortion, and that was 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:44.920 the thing that she said that she was manipulated about. 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:49.400 That coffee in Weddington basically talked her out of getting 0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:54.000 an abortion because they were worried that if she didn't um, 0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:57.560 if she didn't have the child by the time the 0:15:57.560 --> 0:15:59.920 the Supreme Court heard this case, she would no longer 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:03.200 of standing because at the time, the courts used to 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:06.440 rule that if you weren't actively pregnant, if you'd already 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:09.120 had the kid, your case would just get thrown out 0:16:09.120 --> 0:16:11.560 because you weren't pregnant anymore. So who cares. And we'll 0:16:11.560 --> 0:16:13.200 talk a little more about that in a minute, But 0:16:13.280 --> 0:16:17.480 that was why, Um, they they supposedly talked her out 0:16:17.520 --> 0:16:20.080 of it. They say they definitely didn't talk out of it. 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:22.000 But at the same time, they didn't help her find 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:24.200 an abortion, which is what she was after when she 0:16:24.280 --> 0:16:27.760 contacted them in the first place. Right. So, uh, if 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:32.760 you're wondering why this happened, she was, I believe, pregnant 0:16:32.760 --> 0:16:36.520 in nineteen sixty nine, and this case wasn't rendered until 0:16:36.560 --> 0:16:40.640 nineteen seventy three. It's because a lot of stuff happened 0:16:40.640 --> 0:16:43.640 in nineteen seventy one. They were gonna begin hearings in 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:47.800 December of that year when both Justices Hugo. Black and 0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:52.760 John Marshall Harlan the second retired from poor health. That 0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:56.240 was in you know, they died. They both died before 0:16:56.280 --> 0:16:59.120 the end of nineteen seventy one, so they were definitely 0:16:59.120 --> 0:17:02.480 in poor health. Yeah, the prophecy turned out to be 0:17:02.520 --> 0:17:04.840 correct well and just crazy timing. I mean, I don't 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:07.199 think we've seen I we definitely haven't seen anything like 0:17:07.200 --> 0:17:11.520 that since then. But for two justices to retire, you know, 0:17:11.760 --> 0:17:15.720 within days of each other as pretty monumental. Um. And 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:18.639 so President Nixon of course was looking at chops and 0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:22.720 appointed William wind Quist. Always have the trouble with that 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:27.080 wind Quist. I know, I just go pretend like the 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:31.679 h is called Prince's pride in that moment. Uh and 0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:35.320 Lewis F. Powell Jr. Nominated on the same day in 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:40.160 October seventy one, came in and because these Supreme Court 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:45.160 cases take so long to get through, Um, they decided basically, 0:17:45.200 --> 0:17:47.840 after a lot of handwringing, that even though they had 0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:51.240 begun hearing arguments on that case, that they would redo 0:17:51.240 --> 0:17:55.760 it all with the nine justices instead of the seven. Yeah. 0:17:55.800 --> 0:18:00.119 So this was October two when the case that was 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:06.320 eventually decided started in earnest Um. So yeah, by this time, um. Uh, 0:18:06.359 --> 0:18:09.800 Norma McCorvey had already had her child, Her child was 0:18:10.160 --> 0:18:12.720 two and a half years old, and already had been 0:18:13.240 --> 0:18:16.719 given up for adoption. Um. But they still ruled that 0:18:16.760 --> 0:18:20.679 she had standing. That essentially it was not moot right, No, 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:23.920 it wasn't so so that that's um, let's just talk 0:18:23.920 --> 0:18:26.159 about that real quick. So, like I was saying, like 0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:28.439 courts used to rule that if you weren't actually pregnant, 0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:31.320 you couldn't have standing in a pregnancy related case, even 0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:35.320 if you'd filed the initial lawsuit while you were pregnant. 0:18:35.359 --> 0:18:38.760 You weren't pregnant any longer. So whatever, So the Supreme Court. 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:41.720 One of the things they did in Row was established 0:18:42.040 --> 0:18:47.360 that um, pregnancy could not be rendered moot because, as 0:18:47.359 --> 0:18:51.479 they put it, pregnancy provides a classic justification for a 0:18:51.480 --> 0:18:54.520 conclusion of non muteness, which apparently is a real legal 0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:57.720 term because it says it could truly be capable of 0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:02.600 repetition yet evading of you, meaning that any time you 0:19:02.920 --> 0:19:06.399 um that, like an appellate said, Hey, these guys passed 0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:10.400 me over for lack of standing because I'm not pregnant anymore. Um, 0:19:10.920 --> 0:19:15.359 the following the letter of the law, the appellate court 0:19:15.359 --> 0:19:17.000 would be like, well, we can't hear because they're right, 0:19:17.040 --> 0:19:19.680 you don't have standing anymore. So the Supreme Court finally said, 0:19:19.800 --> 0:19:22.760 forget that pregnancy is a recurring thing. Um, it's a 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:25.240 it's a transitory thing, but it's actually a thing, so 0:19:25.320 --> 0:19:27.600 we need to be able to review it. So they said, yes, 0:19:27.880 --> 0:19:31.159 if you are a woman who has been pregnant or 0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:35.440 even could be pregnant, you have standing in cases like this. Yeah, 0:19:35.440 --> 0:19:37.919 because basically they would never hear a case because it 0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:41.480 takes way longer than nine months to like get this 0:19:41.560 --> 0:19:44.120 thing up to the court system and review it. Yeah, 0:19:44.119 --> 0:19:46.080 and I mean all the initial prosecutor have to do 0:19:46.119 --> 0:19:48.359 with be like file a bunch of emotions to delay 0:19:48.359 --> 0:19:50.760 it for nine months and then the case gets automatically 0:19:50.800 --> 0:19:53.160 thrown out. And they even say, like, our law should 0:19:53.160 --> 0:19:55.000 not be that rigid. So that was a big thing 0:19:55.040 --> 0:19:58.919 that they did in in the row Um opinion. For 0:19:58.960 --> 0:20:02.560 a brief side track into levity, I cannot hear the 0:20:02.600 --> 0:20:05.880 word moot without thinking of that great Saturday Night Live 0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:09.040 sketch with Jesse Jackson years ago, the question is moot? 0:20:09.520 --> 0:20:12.159 Did you ever see that one? No, it was a 0:20:12.160 --> 0:20:14.760 game show called the Question Is Moot, and Jesse Jackson 0:20:14.800 --> 0:20:17.639 was the game show host, and basically he would just 0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:21.280 he would laugh out a big question and anytime someone 0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:23.320 would go to answer it, he would just interrupt him 0:20:23.320 --> 0:20:26.560 and say, the question is moot. And like my brother 0:20:26.600 --> 0:20:28.720 and I said the question is moot to each other 0:20:28.720 --> 0:20:30.440 over and over for your period of years when we 0:20:30.400 --> 0:20:33.120 were kids. It was pretty great. No, I've never seen 0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:36.440 that one. Alright, So back to Roe v. Wade funniness 0:20:36.520 --> 0:20:39.719 now over Um, we have to talk about a few 0:20:39.760 --> 0:20:42.040 of these cases because you know, we tend to think 0:20:42.040 --> 0:20:45.600 of Roe v. Wade as this sort of this vacuum 0:20:45.600 --> 0:20:48.320 single case but there were many cases that went into 0:20:48.800 --> 0:20:51.720 UM kind of shaping what ended up happening UM. The 0:20:51.760 --> 0:20:56.119 first of which was probably UM United States versus v Which, 0:20:56.240 --> 0:21:01.159 which was in one when a doctor in d C, 0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:06.520 Dr Bowich, was performing abortions and said uh, and was 0:21:06.560 --> 0:21:09.280 prosecuted for doing so under d C law because d 0:21:09.400 --> 0:21:12.399 C law said, um necessary it can only be done 0:21:12.440 --> 0:21:14.560 if it was necessary for the preservation of the mother's 0:21:14.600 --> 0:21:18.440 life or health. Key under the direction of a competent 0:21:18.560 --> 0:21:22.320 licensed practitioner of medicine. And he said, this is really 0:21:23.119 --> 0:21:27.200 unconstitutionally vague of of what that means, like what does 0:21:27.359 --> 0:21:30.520 health of the mother even mean? And a really key 0:21:30.560 --> 0:21:34.320 thing came out of that, right, Yeah, they they said, Nope, 0:21:34.359 --> 0:21:37.880 it's actually not overly vague. It actually makes sense. But 0:21:38.680 --> 0:21:42.000 they ruled in their opinion, so they ruled against voisch 0:21:42.400 --> 0:21:45.920 Um and in favor of DC's abortion law. But they 0:21:45.960 --> 0:21:49.960 did say, but we could see how health could include 0:21:50.119 --> 0:21:53.879 something like a mother's psychological health or the impact an 0:21:53.960 --> 0:21:57.399 unwinded child might have on a family that but he 0:21:57.480 --> 0:21:59.520 knew and that was huge. So that was a precedent. 0:21:59.520 --> 0:22:02.720 And we saw in the Freedom of the Press episode 0:22:02.720 --> 0:22:05.919 that sometimes justices will like rule against the person, but 0:22:06.000 --> 0:22:08.600 then we'll establish a foundation for a later case by 0:22:08.640 --> 0:22:11.040 just mentioning something like that, and that's what they did 0:22:11.040 --> 0:22:14.880 in that case. Another few cases that had a big 0:22:14.920 --> 0:22:20.399 impact were the first two were Meyer versus Nebraska in 0:22:20.480 --> 0:22:24.760 nineteen twenty three, which was post World War One. There 0:22:24.800 --> 0:22:28.800 was a large anti German sentiment, so they basically enacted 0:22:28.880 --> 0:22:32.040 laws and said, you can't teach foreign languages in school anymore. 0:22:32.400 --> 0:22:35.679 Only English is the only language you can teach. Uh. 0:22:35.760 --> 0:22:39.639 And then Pierce versus Society of Sisters, which was based 0:22:39.640 --> 0:22:43.560 on based on an Oregon case where the state of 0:22:43.600 --> 0:22:46.040 Oregon said all kids have to go to public school. 0:22:46.520 --> 0:22:49.479 You can't go to private school because of the Oregon 0:22:49.520 --> 0:22:54.160 Compulsory Education Act. So those two factor in and how 0:22:54.280 --> 0:22:58.560 they affected how the Fourteenth Amendment and the Ninth Amendment 0:22:58.600 --> 0:23:02.160 were framed in terms of row. And it's a little confusing, 0:23:02.240 --> 0:23:06.080 but it's a little wonky, but the upshot of it 0:23:06.119 --> 0:23:09.119 is that the the in nineteen twenty three and nineteen 0:23:09.160 --> 0:23:12.600 twenty five, the Supreme Court established a precedent by saying 0:23:13.240 --> 0:23:15.720 we're going to start in interpreting the Ninth Amendment, which 0:23:15.720 --> 0:23:19.080 basically says, even though we've mentioned some stuff in the 0:23:19.119 --> 0:23:22.640 Constitution and the Bill of Rights specifically, that doesn't mean 0:23:22.640 --> 0:23:26.280 that other stuff isn't constitutionally protected, like there are other 0:23:26.440 --> 0:23:29.520 rights to that we didn't mention. Figure it out, Supreme 0:23:29.560 --> 0:23:32.080 Court basically what the framers were saying, or the Ninth 0:23:32.080 --> 0:23:36.639 Amendment writers, and then the fourteenth Amendment UH grants equal 0:23:36.680 --> 0:23:39.440 protection under the law with due process. It's called the 0:23:39.520 --> 0:23:42.080 due process clause. And so they put these two things 0:23:42.119 --> 0:23:46.400 together and they basically said that um, that that the 0:23:46.480 --> 0:23:50.840 Court now has the ability to interpret whether something not 0:23:51.040 --> 0:23:55.680 mentioned in the Constitution is a constitutionally protected right. That's 0:23:55.720 --> 0:23:58.959